0:10

Welcome to

0:10

The Science of Parenting podcast

0:12

where we connect you with

0:12

research based information that

0:15

fits your family. We'll talk

0:15

about the realities of being a

0:18

parent and how research can help

0:18

guide our parents decisions. I'm

0:21

Mackenzie Johnson, parent of two

0:21

littles with their own quirks.

0:24

And I'm a parenting educator.

0:26

And I'm Lori

0:26

Korthals. And I am a parent of

0:29

three in two different life

0:29

stages. Two are launched, one is

0:32

still in high school, and I am

0:32

also a parent educator. And

0:36

today we're going to continue

0:36

season seven talking about

0:40

temperament.

0:42

Yes. And also

0:42

we are giggling because our

0:44

producer Mackenzie DeJong is

0:44

messing with us. She was like

0:48

goofing around with us. So okay,

0:48

my apologies. I'm gonna focus.

0:52

I'm not distractible. No, that's

0:52

not a trait that I have.

0:56

Absolutely not. No.

0:58

Oh, yeah,

0:58

this season we do, we're going

1:00

to look at kind of pushing

1:00

together a couple of our other

1:04

seasons. Right?

1:05

Exactly. So we're

1:05

gonna take season three which

1:08

was on temperament, season five

1:08

which was the ages and stages

1:12

that children develop in. And

1:12

all season long we're gonna talk

1:17

about a specific age, layer on

1:17

some temperament, and see what

1:20

kind of tips and tricks and

1:20

techniques we can share with

1:23

you. And today, we are going to

1:23

kick it off by talking about

1:28

infants.

1:29

Bebes! I

1:29

literally had people come up to

1:35

me, if that voice does not sound

1:35

familiar to you when you're

1:39

talking about babies, I don't

1:39

know, but it's just like the

1:41

bebes. But we're happy to have

1:41

people chat with us about any of

1:51

it. Yes. But babies today, and

1:51

we're gonna be looking at one

1:56

specific question around babies. Right?

1:58

We are. Yes. What

1:58

is my baby telling me? Yes. $10

2:05

million dollar question, right.

2:05

Oh, what are they telling me?

2:09

Yes. But the

2:09

temperament does give us insight

2:11

into understanding that. Crying

2:11

is one form of communication,

2:15

but we're going to talk about

2:15

that there's lots of other forms

2:17

that are happening, that

2:17

temperament influences.

2:20

Yes, so many forms. Yes.

2:22

And before we

2:22

do that, we got to talk for just

2:25

a second, a little reminder. As

2:25

every parenting textbook ever

2:30

has mentioned, parenting is a

2:30

bi-directional process. We

2:34

influence our kids, but our kids

2:34

influence us and the way that we

2:38

parent, right, which is why one

2:38

child might pull this certain

2:42

thing out of us, while another

2:42

one seems to pull this certain

2:44

other thing out of us. Exactly.

2:44

Well, but this idea that our

2:48

kids' characteristics, like

2:48

their temperament, like their

2:52

birth order, like their gender

2:52

identity, like their health

2:55

status, all this other stuff,

2:55

that that's going to influence

2:57

how we parent. What kind of

2:57

child rearing we do, how we

3:01

behave, how we interact, how we

3:01

communicate. And so we know that

3:05

it's not just about who I am as

3:05

a parent that influences my

3:08

parenting, but also who my kid

3:08

is, that's going to influence my

3:12

parenting. So temperament is a

3:12

huge part of that.

3:14

It is absolutely.

3:14

So let's just start off with a

3:17

quick reminder, reintroduce the

3:17

definition. We're going to do it

3:22

just a little bit each week just

3:22

to keep everyone on the same

3:25

page. But Mary Rothbart and her

3:25

colleagues are where we get our

3:29

definition from. They talk about

3:29

temperament being a

3:32

physiological basis for

3:32

individual differences. So the

3:36

differences in how our internal

3:36

body responds, reacts, how it is

3:41

able to self regulate, even

3:41

things like motivation, and

3:46

affect and activity and

3:46

attention. All of those things

3:49

are a part of temperament. One

3:49

of our favorite temperament

3:52

researchers, Mary Sheedy

3:52

Kurcinka, talks about

3:55

temperament as helping us to

3:55

predict. And she says that

3:59

learning our temperament offers

3:59

us predictability, a chance to

4:04

how our children can react, act

4:04

to different people, places and

4:10

things that they come across.

4:10

And we can eventually start to

4:13

identify and predict their

4:13

reactions. Essentially, she says

4:18

that the genes, those biological

4:18

pieces, are the template. And

4:23

then the environment, which is

4:23

our responses to our children,

4:27

where they grow up, essentially

4:27

provides us opportunities for

4:31

learning how to manage their

4:31

responses, our responses, and

4:36

how they can manage their

4:36

responses and our responses.

4:41

Oh, yeah, and that thing you know, that word picture you gave us last week of

4:42

temperament is at the core and

4:46

temperament is a gift and then

4:46

around that gift is the wrapping

4:50

paper and the tissue paper and

4:50

the bows and the card and all

4:53

that extra stuff. The

4:53

environment has all these extra

4:56

layers, but that the temperament

4:56

is always at the core. As you

5:01

talked about getting to know

5:01

those cues and those temperament

5:04

traits, and I think it's really

5:04

important for us to acknowledge

5:06

as we talk about babies, in

5:06

particular, that when your baby

5:10

is first born, maybe I need

5:10

sleep. When your baby is first

5:18

born, we don't know yet, right?

5:18

You spend those first few weeks

5:21

and months learning your baby's

5:21

temperament, learning their

5:25

patterns of reaction, because

5:25

they don't have a pattern yet.

5:28

Because this might be the first

5:28

day or the first week or the

5:31

first month and so we haven't

5:31

figured those out yet. And so I

5:34

think that's a really important

5:34

part that's unique about

5:38

temperament and babies is,

5:38

you're really spending those

5:40

first few weeks and months

5:40

figuring out what those really

5:44

are. So like, it's okay, right?

5:44

We say it can help you predict.

5:48

But like, if you've only known

5:48

this baby for a week, you can't

5:52

predict a lot yet. And that's

5:52

okay. There's a learning curve

5:56

period.

5:57

There's a huge

5:57

learning curve. Let's talk about

6:01

learning in infants in

6:01

particular. So, in season three,

6:05

we utilize the CDC milestones

6:05

tracker, and we're going to go

6:09

back to that as our basis for

6:09

rediscovering what it is that

6:13

infants, who we are talking

6:13

about at this point in time are

6:16

ages zero to one year, what kind

6:16

of skills are they learning

6:22

during that year, things like

6:22

taking their first step, maybe,

6:26

smiling, cooing, waving bye bye.

6:26

These are called developmental

6:31

milestones. And these are things

6:31

that most children can do by a

6:36

certain age. But there's

6:36

variation. Children vary when

6:40

they reach those specific

6:40

milestones, how they learn, how

6:44

they play, how they speak, all

6:44

of those things are milestones.

6:48

And so that's what we're going

6:48

to talk about specifically,

6:51

alongside temperament and

6:51

infants today.

6:55

Yes. And so

6:55

yeah, in addition to those kind

6:58

of physical milestones, we also

6:58

see cognitive milestones and

7:02

language milestones. And, you

7:02

know, we think about I remember

7:07

when I took my grad class in

7:07

child development and thinking

7:10

about infants, I was like, well,

7:10

yeah, the crawling, right, and

7:13

the walking, right, and all

7:13

that, and it was like, okay, but

7:16

there's all this other stuff

7:16

first. Learning that I impact

7:20

the world. Learning that when I

7:20

smile, maybe my caregiver smiles

7:24

back. And so there's all this

7:24

cognitive development that

7:28

happens alongside those things.

7:28

I can reach for a toy. I have

7:33

fingers, these things that are

7:33

attached to the ends of these.

7:35

Yeah, that's happening. And so

7:35

yes, lots of cognitive and brain

7:40

development, the memory, the

7:40

language, the thinking, the

7:43

babbling is a form of language,

7:43

right? The Mama, the Dada, those

7:47

first words. In our house, ball

7:47

was a first word. But so all of

7:52

that the language, the physical,

7:52

the cognitive. But there's also

7:56

one really important one that we

7:56

haven't covered yet, right?

7:58

There is, and

7:58

that is a stage where children

8:00

are learning about trust, and

8:00

they're creating bonds of love

8:05

with their caregivers. And

8:05

that's an area that we call

8:09

social and emotional

8:09

development. And this is the way

8:13

And you know,

8:13

if you're a newer listener or

8:13

that parents cuddle or hold

8:13

their infants. And all of those

8:18

things begin to set the basis

8:18

for how they're going to

8:23

interact with them. So Thomas

8:23

nd Chess, they really talk

8:27

bout temperament around this

8:27

dea of a goodness of fit, or

8:32

ow do we come together? I like

8:32

o word picture, think of it as

8:36

puzzle piece. Right? Is this a

8:36

ood fitting puzzle piece with

8:40

he next piece? And if it's not,

8:40

ow do we adapt? So when we

8:45

pecifically think of babies a

8:45

d that idea of trust and r

8:49

lationship and cuddling, what w

8:49

're doing is, as a caregiver, w

8:53

're matching our ability to c

8:53

mmunicate with them with their a

9:00

ility to communicate with us a

9:00

d interact with us. And what w

9:04

're looking for is that good f

9:04

ow of interaction and c

9:08

mmunication, back and forth, b

9:08

-directional from each other. A

9:13

d what we're doing is n

9:13

rturing those interactions. A

9:17

d we're encouraging i

9:17

teractions that are well functi

9:22

ning and just that good fit to

9:22

ether. Oh, yes.

9:30

viewer to The Science of

9:30

Parenting, you maybe haven't

9:34

heard us say it before, but we

9:34

talk a lot. One of our core

9:37

beliefs is that parents are the

9:37

experts on their kids, right?

9:41

That as a caregiver, that you

9:41

know your kid, that you know

9:44

their needs, and temperament's a

9:44

huge part of that. And this

9:47

goodness of fit that you as a

9:47

parent are able to create.

9:50

That's a huge part of why we

9:50

think parents are the experts,

9:53

right? You've seen that kid's

9:53

temperament. You've seen how

9:56

they interact with the world.

9:56

And so yeah, you're the best

9:59

person to anticipate and make

9:59

plans and inform the other

10:02

people around them who care about them.

10:04

Absolutely.

10:07

Temperament

10:07

is just such a huge part of it.

10:09

It is and

10:09

research tells us that

10:13

understanding our child's

10:13

temperament allows for this back

10:18

and forth goodness to happen.

10:18

And as we can show our children

10:25

more emotional regulation, they

10:25

learn it from us as we respond

10:30

and interact and learn what

10:30

their cues are, and their needs

10:33

are. So let's go back to what

10:33

are the nine traits that Thomas

10:40

and Chess shared, and we talked

10:40

a lot about them in season

10:44

three, so you can go back and

10:44

specifically grab onto one trait

10:48

and hear us talk all about it.

10:48

But we're specifically today

10:51

going to only address that trait

10:51

through the lens of infants. And

10:56

we're going to walk through the

10:56

nine traits we're going to share

10:59

with you. Okay, what does this

10:59

trait look like in an infant?

11:02

And if you remember, we talked

11:02

about the traits as a continuum.

11:06

So each and every one of us and

11:06

all of our children got all nine

11:09

traits. We just have to decide

11:09

and come to learn about how much

11:14

of each trait did we get? Do we

11:14

get a lot of activity level? Or

11:19

just a little bit? Did we get a

11:19

lot of intensity? Or just a

11:24

little bit? So we'll take a

11:24

couple at a time. How's that

11:27

sound?

11:28

That sounds

11:28

good. Let's dive into these. So

11:30

I guess I'll get going. Right?

11:30

One of the first temperament

11:35

traits is activity level. So

11:35

while physically active and

11:38

moving your body, things like

11:38

that. So if we're in a less

11:42

active baby, so a baby with a

11:42

lower activity level, they might

11:46

lie quietly while getting

11:46

dressed. You know, maybe they're

11:49

laid down in one spot and then

11:49

picked up from the same spot.

11:53

What is that? It wasn't a thing

11:53

for my kids. But versus that

12:00

higher activity level, right?

12:00

Always on the move, whether

12:03

they're sleeping, I think of the

12:03

term diaper wrestling as one of

12:07

my siblings says. It would take

12:07

two to change a diaper because

12:10

they were squirming and moving

12:10

and giggling. And all this

12:13

silliness that was happening. I

12:13

think another big one, that

12:16

activity level, a higher

12:16

activity level child, those

12:21

physical milestones like

12:21

crawling and walking, that high

12:25

activity level can be an asset.

12:25

They might have some of those

12:29

earlier milestones for physical

12:29

things, because they like to

12:33

practice lots of that. That

12:33

feels good. The next trait being

12:37

approach or withdrawal. So does

12:37

a child approach things that are

12:41

new. Do they enjoy novelty like

12:41

new people, new situations, new

12:45

places? Or do they tend to

12:45

withdraw from those new things?

12:49

So for a baby that is

12:49

particularly more approaching,

12:54

they might be calm when a new

12:54

person comes and goes in to

12:58

tickle their belly and do baby

12:58

talk and all those little things

13:01

that people do, or you don't

13:01

really notice a difference in

13:05

their behavior when they're in a

13:05

new place or unfamiliar place.

13:09

For a baby that's high approach,

13:09

that kind of stuff doesn't feel

13:12

like it really, quote unquote,

13:12

messes with your baby, versus a

13:16

baby that's more withdrawing.

13:16

This is the baby that maybe

13:19

doesn't like to be passed. I had

13:19

two babies that did not want to

13:22

be passed around from person to

13:22

person. You know, they might be

13:25

distressed by new things and

13:25

that things felt fearful. I even

13:29

think of people when we have a

13:29

dog. And when people introduce

13:33

their baby to our dog, you know,

13:33

does your baby like, oh, a dog?

13:38

Or is your baby more fearful?

13:38

And so that can be a thing. How

13:43

does your baby approach things that are new? Are they approaching or withdrawing?

13:47

And I remember

13:47

coming to your house for the

13:49

first time after your first

13:49

child was born and we met at the

13:52

door and you immediately started

13:52

to say, now she might not want

13:57

to be held. And I thought, okay,

13:57

she's apologizing. Okay, wait,

14:03

we're gonna have to teach her about temperament because she doesn't have to apologize for

14:05

this baby not wanting to be held

14:08

by some perfect stranger who

14:08

just showed up at the door.

14:12

But I will

14:12

say that temperament served you

14:15

in a way that maybe wasn't

14:15

serving other people in my life.

14:18

You were like, oh, that's your

14:18

baby's temperament. It's okay if

14:21

she doesn't like to be held by

14:21

new people. That's okay. That

14:24

you could understand and be like, hey, there's nothing wrong with you or your baby.

14:27

Yeah, I'll sit here and chat with you. And you can hold your baby and I'll just

14:29

look at her longingly, right?

14:34

Yeah, well, so that kind of

14:34

leads us into this third trait

14:37

adaptability and adaptability

14:37

and infants. It might look like

14:41

an infant who can fall asleep

14:41

quickly or calmly and if they

14:46

are awakened, they might be calm

14:46

when they are awakened. Versus

14:53

the child who is not adaptable,

14:53

who you know, maybe is not ready

14:59

to be done feeding and if they

14:59

are awakened from their sleep,

15:02

they might cry, or begin to

15:02

fuss. You know, they're just not

15:07

adaptable to those quick

15:07

changes, whether it's the car

15:11

seat or you know, getting in and

15:11

out of a big snow suit or coat.

15:18

Those types of things they're

15:18

not comfortable with.

15:20

Yes, those

15:20

transitions of in and out of the

15:25

car seat, in and out of crib,

15:25

held to laying down. Is that

15:30

something that your baby does

15:30

fine with? If you're like, what

15:34

are they talking about, you

15:34

probably have a more adaptable

15:36

baby. If you're like, no, my

15:36

baby cries every time the car

15:41

So how do we

15:41

learn to appreciate that? So

15:42

seat comes out. another trait that kind of

15:43

drives right into this is

15:46

intensity. So they're not

15:46

adaptable, right, and what is

15:48

their intensity level and when

15:48

it comes to expressing their

15:51

displeasure about having to

15:51

adapt. A less intense infant m

15:55

ght be easily soothed. They m

15:55

ght just have softer cries. T

16:00

ey are not going to get upset w

16:00

en they're surprised or ch

16:05

llenged, right? Where a more in

16:05

ense infant, they might not en

16:10

oy tummy time because that

16:10

is challenging to them. And th

16:15

y don't want to have anythin

16:15

to do with that. And they're

16:18

oing to express that loudly

16:18

hen they are upset. They m

16:22

ght have loud cries. And th

16:22

y might have these loud, huge be

16:26

ly laughs when they learn to

16:26

laugh. But that intense baby is

16:31

eally hot and cold at the same

16:31

ime. Right? Hot, cold imme

16:35

iately. Whoa.

16:42

And I don't remember which of our kids it was but I was with somebody else. And I remember hearing their baby cry was just like

16:44

this sweet little whimpers. And I was like, what is that noise?

16:45

Because when my baby cried, it

16:57

was a wail. Right. So when it

16:57

comes to intensity, is there a

17:01

whimper or is there a wail when

17:01

there's tears? A few other

17:06

traits, one being sensitivity.

17:06

And so think of the sensory

17:12

information that your baby

17:12

receives. Noise, smells,

17:17

textures, right, like a wet

17:17

diaper, that feeling of things

17:20

like that. Lights that are

17:20

bright. And so you might have a

17:24

less sensitive baby who can

17:24

sleep through noisy routines.

17:28

I've heard somebody talk about I

17:28

could vacuum under the crib

17:31

while they were sleeping. I was

17:31

like that baby was not very

17:35

sensitive. Versus some babies

17:35

wake the second they're laid

17:38

down, right? They feel that cold

17:38

sheet. The bright lights can be

17:44

overstimulating. The noise in

17:44

the place can be

17:46

overstimulating. Yeah,

17:46

sensitivity is a big part of

17:50

that.

17:50

I'm laughing and

17:50

chuckling because I was just

17:53

remembering my oldest daughter.

17:53

So back in the day, we had those

17:58

little cassette recorders that

17:58

were black, and you just put the

18:01

cassette in and flip it to play

18:01

the other side. So she had a

18:05

specific bedtime tape cassette.

18:05

I know people are like what? No,

18:10

no. And so I would sometimes I

18:10

would hear that last song, and I

18:15

would sprint in there and shut

18:15

it off very quietly because she

18:21

was so sensitive to loud noise

18:21

that when that cassette turned

18:25

off and got to the end of that

18:25

tape, it would go click really

18:28

super loud. And I would sprint

18:28

in there on that last song. And

18:35

then she'd stay asleep.

18:37

Oh, that is

18:37

funny. That is funny. And then

18:41

that kind of closely ties also

18:41

to this trait of

18:43

distractibility, or

18:43

perceptiveness, or alertness.

18:48

Some babies really aren't

18:48

bothered and don't notice too

18:51

much things like light, or they

18:51

can sleep or feed anywhere

18:56

versus a baby that's more

18:56

distractible or more in tune

19:00

with the details around them.

19:00

You know, I had what we call the

19:04

FOMO baby, one of my kids right.

19:04

Fear of missing out. Yeah, yeah.

19:09

Thank you. I can't nurse while

19:09

we are around these people. I

19:14

have to see everything. I cannot

19:14

sleep here. I'm gonna need to

19:17

stay awake. Yeah. Needing the

19:17

environment to be a specific way

19:24

to help them because all those

19:24

things are just way too

19:27

enticing, right? So having it

19:27

dark, needing to like be away

19:32

from the commotion or staying

19:32

awake in those unfamiliar places

19:36

might be signs of a more alert

19:36

and perceptive baby.

19:40

I love that word alert. That's what Mary Sheedy Kurcinka uses when she talks

19:42

about distractibility in her

19:46

books, and she talks about what

19:46

is their level of alertness,

19:49

what do they catch, right? So

19:49

then let's talk about

19:53

persistence. I think we're on

19:53

temperament trait seven, so

19:57

persistence, if you've been

19:57

counting. So the persistent

20:00

infant, they cannot be

20:00

redirected. The persistent

20:05

infant, if you take a toy away

20:05

from them, they want it back. A

20:08

persistent infant who is

20:08

crawling towards that potted

20:12

plant cannot be just quickly

20:12

picked up and turned around.

20:18

They will go back. They will go

20:18

back to that potted plant versus

20:21

the less persistent infant.

20:21

They're not necessarily going to

20:26

want that toy back. But they're

20:26

also not necessarily going to

20:30

continue with a hard task. So,

20:30

you know, they might just try to

20:36

scoot a little, and that was

20:36

good enough, that's kind of

20:38

hard. I'll try that a different

20:38

day. And so you know, depending

20:43

on that persistence of your

20:43

infant, your baby, there are

20:47

different things you can get

20:47

away with as a parent and other

20:51

things where you're just like,

20:51

how can that parent just turn

20:53

their baby around and look at

20:53

something different and they

20:56

stop crying, right?

20:58

They don't

20:58

have to play goalie against the

21:02

potted plant.

21:05

Exactly. They get

21:05

to keep their magazines on the

21:08

coffee table.

21:11

I remember putting a box in front of the stairs at our previous home. We

21:13

didn't have a gate yet. We were

21:17

waiting for the gate to get there but we had this big box because it was like, well just

21:19

don't let her go on the stairs.

21:22

I'm like, then I would have to

21:22

sit there all day.

21:26

Yes, I love that.

21:26

We'll talk about that later.

21:30

Temperament trait number eight

21:30

is regularity. And we didn't put

21:35

these in any particular order.

21:35

But this is one of my very

21:38

favorites to talk about because

21:38

like I said in episode, oh,

21:41

gosh, can't remember of season

21:41

three, regularity. It was about,

21:46

do babies eat, sleep, and poop

21:46

at the same time every day. And

21:51

a very regular baby will. You

21:51

know what time it is based on

21:56

the smell in the room. Right?

21:56

The diaper needs to be changed.

21:59

37. Or they're

21:59

hungry and you know it's their

22:04

33 snack. The infant who is

22:04

regular can follow what the

22:12

books say that all of your

22:12

friends give you, right? And you

22:16

feel successful, and you feel

22:16

like you won the day because

22:19

look, they followed what the

22:19

book said. The irregular infant

22:24

is not going to follow what the

22:24

book said. They don't sleep at

22:27

the same time every day. They

22:27

don't sleep for the same amount

22:30

every day. They aren't going to

22:30

eat the same amount, they're not

22:34

going to eat on schedule. No

22:34

matter how committed you are to

22:39

that book that your best friend

22:39

gave you that worked like a

22:41

charm for her, that irregular

22:41

infant, their temperament is

22:46

going to buck you at every turn.

22:46

They just are going to listen to

22:51

their own biological rhythms.

22:51

The genes that someone gave

22:56

them, I don't know if it was you

22:56

or not, but someone gave them

23:00

those biological genes to help

23:00

them create their biological

23:04

rhythms. And so regularity is

23:04

one of those temperament traits

23:08

that, gosh, adults so want to

23:08

control, especially in infants,

23:13

and so wrapped into my success

23:13

as a parent if I get them to

23:17

eat, sleep, and poop when I want

23:17

them to. But temperament rules,

23:23

especially in regularity,

23:25

Temperament is at the core.

23:27

At the core. It's

23:27

in the middle of that gift bag.

23:30

Yes. And you

23:30

know, I have one kid that was a

23:36

clock. You talk about he would

23:36

cry, and I would be like, must

23:41

be three o'clock. He's hungry.

23:41

He's ready. And sure enough, so

23:44

he was the clock. But my

23:44

daughter was not. My daughter

23:47

was not a clock baby. Mary

23:47

Sheedy Kurcinka talks about some

23:51

kids are clocks but especially

23:51

with spirited babies, they tend

23:56

to be more based around cues and

23:56

routines. Like what are their

23:59

sleepy cues, things like that.

23:59

Yeah. And thinking about

24:02

temperament as the gift in that

24:02

gift wrap, as an infant, that

24:06

was really hard for me. And I'm

24:06

very irregular, too. So I felt

24:09

like at least I had that going

24:09

for me like oh, you're staying

24:12

up? Okay, I guess I could stay

24:12

up kind of thing but we're

24:15

seeing it now that my irregular

24:15

kid is the kid that can stay up

24:19

till midnight for a wedding

24:19

because she wants to dance all

24:21

night. Yeah, but like her

24:21

irregularity is a gift in a lot

24:26

of ways for me as a parent. Like

24:26

we could stay a little longer

24:30

because it'll be alright if

24:30

she's up a little late. She can

24:34

handle that with her

24:34

temperament. But it's different

24:38

to have an irregular baby than

24:38

it is to have a regular one and

24:41

you're so right that the

24:41

judgment that we put on

24:45

ourselves of like, oh, cool your

24:45

baby sleeps through the night.

24:48

Mine doesn't. What's wrong with me?

24:51

What's wrong with

24:51

me? Oh, nothing. Nothing.

24:56

Yes. Yes. And

24:56

there is one more temperament

24:59

trait here and that's mood. So

24:59

kind of the general disposition

25:04

that a baby or a person has. And

25:04

so for an infant that has high

25:08

mood typically and a good mood,

25:08

you're getting maybe lots of

25:11

those smiles and giggles. They

25:11

might be in a fairly good mood

25:15

even when they didn't sleep,

25:15

right? I even think there were

25:17

times I remember being, how are

25:17

you so happy? I'm exhausted. We

25:22

were awake all night. That might

25:22

be high mood. Versus a baby with

25:29

a lower mood, right? All of us

25:29

know people that tend to be a

25:32

little more serious, that maybe

25:32

are a little more somber in

25:35

their disposition. And there's a

25:35

lot of things that we recognize

25:38

about that in adults. And that

25:38

can be the case with babies too,

25:42

right? Yes, exactly. They may

25:42

not be giggly, but they are the

25:45

thoughtful and looking around.

25:45

As Mary Sheedy Kurcinka says it,

25:51

an old soul in an infant body.

25:51

Yeah. And so there are

25:55

absolutely babies that are just,

25:55

yeah, that lower mood. I hate to

25:59

use the word fickle because I

25:59

think that has a negative

26:02

connotation to it. But some

26:02

babies aren't the gigglers and

26:06

that there's nothing wrong with

26:06

that. There's so many beautiful

26:09

gifts wrapped up in that

26:09

temperament even if they're not

26:11

gigglers.

26:12

Exactly. So in

26:12

the spirit of what is my baby

26:16

telling me, right, let's talk

26:16

about the reality. And we

26:19

really, this season, we wanted

26:19

to pull research in different

26:23

areas that might be particularly

26:23

challenging at specific ages,

26:28

right? So those things that

26:28

cause parents to go surf the

26:31

internet at 2am. Those are the

26:31

things that we wanted to focus

26:34

on. And so for babies, that

26:34

really honestly, was

26:40

communication, because they

26:40

can't communicate verbally,

26:42

right? Yes. But they're

26:42

communicating with us in all of

26:46

these other ways. And so we

26:46

wanted to try to give you

26:49

something to help answer that

26:49

question, what is my baby

26:52

telling me? And one thing that

26:52

you can do is go back to season

26:56

three. We have some specific

26:56

information from McCall Gordon

27:00

on sleep. And we also have

27:00

information from Mary Sheedy

27:05

Kurcinka on her new book,

27:05

Raising Your Spirited Baby. And

27:08

so what we want to do is take

27:08

this time to share some reality

27:11

around what Mary talks about in

27:11

her book. And she specifically

27:16

talks about three different

27:16

types of babies. So she talks

27:20

about a low key baby, a spunky

27:20

baby, and a spirited baby. And

27:23

then we're going to talk about

27:23

what she calls the three cues

27:26

for arousal. Three zones. Cues,

27:26

zones. Anyway, so let's go

27:43

backwards. So what is a low key

27:43

infant? A low key infant is the

27:48

infant that says, you know what,

27:48

I am so mellow, but don't

27:52

forget, because my needs can

27:52

actually be overlooked. And then

27:57

she talks about a spunky baby.

27:57

And the spunky baby is that one

28:02

that's relatively mellow but

28:02

they do have their temperament

28:06

triggers, right? And then we

28:06

talk about the spirited baby.

28:11

And so I just want to actually

28:11

read a little bit of this from

28:14

her book, because I think it's

28:14

so well stated. And the spirited

28:17

baby says, I need you to help me

28:17

stay calm. So please respond

28:21

quickly, before I become too

28:21

upset. That's the key there.

28:25

Please respond quickly before I

28:25

become to upset because spirited

28:29

babies are intense. Every

28:29

reaction is strong and powerful.

28:34

A mere click of a closing door

28:34

may awaken them. They're busy

28:38

and on the move and keeping them

28:38

safe is a constant challenge.

28:43

And if you feel like you're

28:43

working harder than your peers

28:46

whose babies are not spirited,

28:46

Mary says you are correct. Yes,

28:52

but life with a spirited infant

28:52

can also be filled with lots of

28:56

joy. So let's talk about those

28:56

zones, the cues that are in the

29:04

zones for arousal, how about you

29:04

kick us off?

29:07

Yes. So

29:07

looking at these three zones,

29:10

you look at the cues and which

29:10

zone they're in. So she talks

29:15

about the green zone, the yellow

29:15

zone, and the red zone. So in

29:19

the green zone, you've got a

29:19

pretty calm baby. Even if your

29:21

baby is spirited, and your

29:21

baby's intense and high activity

29:25

level, but that a baby in the

29:25

green zone, regardless of their

29:29

temperament, is still fairly

29:29

calm and fairly easy going. In

29:34

the yellow zone, these are signs

29:34

that your baby's starting to get

29:37

what we call dysregulated,

29:37

right? They're going to need

29:40

something or they're starting to

29:40

try to tell you they're going to

29:43

need something. I'm going to

29:43

need fed, I'm going to need

29:45

changed, I'm going to need help,

29:45

I'm going to need sleep. But the

29:49

yellow zone is going to

29:49

communicate some of those cues

29:52

to you. And then the red zone,

29:52

this is fully dysregulated. I am

29:55

overtired, I am starving, I am

29:55

terribly cold right? Yeah,

30:00

something is awful. My cuddle

30:00

bucket is empty. In the red zone

30:08

things are looking tense. And I

30:08

can tell you I'm very familiar

30:11

with the red zone. I've spent a

30:11

lot of time there, myself as

30:16

well as with my infants, one in

30:16

particular. But I will say the

30:21

gift of temperament, yes, that

30:21

idea of joy that my child that

30:26

we had trouble with sleeping and

30:26

eating and all those things, but

30:29

that spirit of temperament was

30:29

also my baby that I have so many

30:33

videos of her giggling, belly

30:33

laughing, exploring, climbing

30:38

all over. All those things that

30:38

there is so much all wrapped

30:42

together in that package of

30:42

temperament for sure. Yes. So

30:46

first, I want to tell you some

30:46

of the things about the green

30:49

zone of arousal. What are some

30:49

of the things you see when a

30:51

baby, any baby, is in the green

30:51

state of arousal? So I have my

30:57

book here in front of you, me

30:57

literally looking at Mary Sheedy

31:01

Kurcinka's Raising Your Spirited

31:01

Baby book. But things like

31:04

they're looking at you and that

31:04

they're engaged with you.

31:07

They're engaged in play. They

31:07

might be exploring. Something

31:10

interesting that she has here is

31:10

their movement can be more

31:15

smooth, right? So it's not like

31:15

jerky and fidgety, but that like

31:19

I'm reaching, and it's just a

31:19

thing that that's happening

31:21

naturally for me. They might

31:21

mimic, you know, if you clap,

31:25

they clap, right? They're

31:25

playing, those older babies,

31:28

things like that. They're

31:28

giggling. They're bright eyed,

31:30

right? I think that was one

31:30

thing I learned with my infants

31:33

was their eyes, how much their

31:33

eyes were telling me. And people

31:36

told me that and I was like, I

31:36

don't get it. But the bright

31:40

eyed versus the blank stare that

31:40

comes. And the blank stares

31:44

almost turns into like a scowl

31:44

later. But yeah, so that idea of

31:50

they're calm, they're collected,

31:50

they're smiling, they're

31:53

exploring. This is of course,

31:53

the ideal. This is when your

31:56

baby has all of their needs met,

31:56

here in the green zone.

32:01

And as you think

32:01

about these zones, think about

32:03

this as your baby's

32:03

communication. They're

32:06

communicating with you. And then

32:06

when they move into the yellow

32:10

zone, this is kind of that space

32:10

where they're beginning to say,

32:13

hey, can you pay attention to me

32:13

because I am starting to need

32:19

something. I'm starting to

32:19

communicate with you. So they

32:23

might turn away from you, or

32:23

lose interest in what's going on

32:28

around them and start to become

32:28

a little frustrated with it or

32:32

they might seek contact with

32:32

you. If you've laid them down in

32:37

the middle of the floor, they

32:37

might start to indicate they

32:40

want you to come closer. Like

32:40

Mackenzie was talking about

32:43

movements, those smooth stroking

32:43

movements might become more

32:47

agitated or kicking or

32:47

accelerated. And those bright

32:51

eyes might start to frown or

32:51

they might purse their lips or

32:55

begin to grimace, or they start

32:55

to blink. I know I'm starting to

33:00

blink right now. Right? I'm

33:00

doing all these things, right?

33:05

But they're starting to tell you

33:05

things. And these are the things

33:08

I love to observe out in public

33:08

with infants is, I can start to

33:13

see when those babies are moving

33:13

into that yellow zone just by

33:16

these cues, they're starting to

33:16

pucker that eyebrow, or they

33:20

might even start to rev up or

33:20

hum and make sounds like I'm

33:26

starting to need something. And

33:26

yes, they might want to be fed

33:31

or you know, go for that special

33:31

thing that makes them feel more

33:34

comfort.

33:36

Yes. And so

33:36

those are the signs, right? Our

33:38

babies are communicating, right?

33:38

Absolutely. They are telling us,

33:42

I'm needing something. Hey,

33:42

Mama, Hey, Dada. Ball. I'm

33:51

needing something is in that

33:51

yellow zone that they're

33:54

starting to get a little

33:54

dysregulated with whatever

33:56

they're feeling versus the red

33:56

zone, right, where we're full

33:59

fledged, the needs are urgent,

33:59

and your baby is having a hard

34:04

time. So this is the crying,

34:04

right? Which, honestly for me,

34:11

that was a really hard balance

34:11

for me to find with my kids of

34:13

like, okay, well don't pick them

34:13

up before they even cry. Don't

34:16

wake them up because you thought

34:16

they were gonna cry. Versus

34:20

okay, but once they're crying,

34:20

they're in the red zone. And so

34:24

there is, there's a balance

34:24

there that can be tough. I'm

34:27

also acknowledging the movement,

34:27

you know, the stiffness in their

34:30

body. So arching their back,

34:30

tightly closed fist, that's what

34:35

I remember talking to you about

34:35

was their little tight fist and

34:38

what their fingers are

34:38

communicating, their stiff body,

34:42

becoming red in the face,

34:42

pulling up their knees, which to

34:46

me is just so biologically

34:46

interesting because you think

34:49

about babies in the womb all

34:49

scrunched up, that your baby is

34:52

scrunching, right? Some other

34:52

things being you know,

34:59

scrunching up their face,

34:59

flaring their nostrils,

35:03

screaming, right, some older

35:03

infants that are able to

35:06

actually scream. But another one

35:06

that I find interesting, and I

35:10

see this in myself as well as in

35:10

my spirited daughter, is this

35:13

becoming hyper and frenzied? So

35:13

like so overtired, or whatever

35:19

it is, that people are like,

35:19

they don't look tired at all.

35:23

But they are. They're so

35:23

overtired. So that's a big one.

35:28

And honestly, even the super

35:28

needy baby is telling you, I'm

35:33

tired. Actually, we were with

35:33

friends recently. And they were

35:37

doing something with their baby,

35:37

I guess now a little over one, I

35:41

guess. But I offered to hold the

35:41

baby and they were getting ready

35:46

to eat something. So it's like, I could hold your baby if you want. And the baby immediately

35:48

was like, no, no. And they're

35:50

like I'm so sorry. I totally

35:50

expected I could pass it.

35:53

Normally, that's fine. You must

35:53

be tired. I'm like, that's

35:56

awesome that you recognize your

35:56

baby's needs, right? That you're

36:00

like, hey, that baby's telling

36:00

me that they're not ready. And I

36:03

tried to be as like, oh, that is

36:03

awesome. Yes, great work. I'm so

36:07

glad that you listened to your

36:07

baby, and that your baby knows

36:09

what it needs. I thought that

36:09

was a beautiful thing that baby

36:13

was doing. So yeah, those three

36:13

zones of green, yellow and red.

36:19

And they're zones that have

36:19

cues.

36:23

These zones have

36:23

cues and they're telling you

36:25

something. Your baby is telling

36:25

you something in the green zone.

36:28

They're telling you all is well,

36:28

it's all good here. And the

36:32

yellow zone, they're starting to

36:32

say I'm struggling, please help.

36:35

In the red zone, they're saying,

36:35

I am overloaded and I need major

36:41

assistance to calm down. I need

36:41

your help to calm down. And so

36:47

as we look at temperament,

36:47

especially in infancy, what we

36:52

begin to recognize is they're

36:52

giving off these cues. And the

36:57

amount of time we have in each

36:57

zone is what we begin to

37:01

understand based on their

37:01

predictability as we learn about

37:05

temperament. So predicting how

37:05

much time we have between zones

37:11

becomes super important, right?

37:11

For some kids, it's longer,

37:16

medium, short, right? And that

37:16

is based on their temperament.

37:19

Those biological, physiological

37:19

things that are happening inside

37:23

of them are giving us cues. And

37:23

we can predict, well, I got 43

37:28

and a half seconds and that's

37:28

it. I have enough time to sprint

37:33

across the room and grab their

37:33

blankets and be back. Right?

37:37

Yes. That is

37:37

the key. Yes. When I think of

37:41

the times that I was in

37:41

situations, knowing that I had a

37:44

baby that had a very short

37:44

window between yellow and red,

37:48

and another baby that we had

37:48

more time. But there was more

37:52

flexibility there. But knowing

37:52

that and the people like, do you

37:55

really need to go? I remember

37:55

the judgment and the feeling of

38:01

not knowing but now I look back

38:01

and I'm like, I knew my baby. So

38:07

we did, my co-parent and I

38:07

really did know that timeline

38:11

was short, and I knew how hard

38:11

it was for me once they fell

38:14

apart. Yes. So I wish I could go

38:14

back and tell younger parents

38:19

me, you know what you're doing.

38:19

And that's one of the things we

38:23

believe in The Science of

38:23

Parenting is like, with this

38:25

temperament, with these zones of

38:25

arousal, with all those things,

38:29

you can learn better than

38:29

anybody else what your baby's

38:33

cues are, how much time you

38:33

have, all those things, but you

38:37

and your co-parent know your baby.

38:41

Absolutely,

38:41

oh, I love that. I was gonna co

38:45

e up with something really, re

38:45

lly super profound. But that was

38:48

profound. Trust yourself. Trust

38:51

Yes. Get to

38:51

know those cues. And then

38:53

believe in yourself and your

38:53

baby when they come around.

38:57

eah, yeah. All right.

38:59

Well, I think

38:59

that means it's time to bring

39:01

That's a good

39:01

question. So I was texting

39:01

our producer Mackenzie in and

39:01

see if she can help us stop and

39:07

breathe and take a moment in

39:07

this section. We gave her a

39:13

little break in season six,

39:13

brought her back in season

39:15

seven. And so last week, she was

39:15

pretty, pretty easy on us with a

39:20

question. And so I'm curious

39:20

this week to see what kind of

39:24

question do you have, Mackenzie?

39:32

during this whole thing, because

39:32

I thought I had questions. It's

39:35

one of those, I thought I had a

39:35

question and y'all covered all

39:39

of my question. I want to talk a

39:39

little bit more because you

39:44

touched on it. And I feel like

39:44

the answer didn't necessarily

39:48

come up around the idea. So you

39:48

just talked about trusting

39:53

yourself. We talked about, you

39:53

know, people have opinions of

39:56

things and you talk about

39:56

trusting yourself and knowing

40:00

your baby. But when you come

40:00

into that situation with someone

40:04

who is trying to be the backseat

40:04

driver of your baby and the car

40:10

that you're in of handling a

40:10

newborn, what kind of things can

40:16

we start to have conversations

40:16

around? Or how can we start to

40:19

have those conversations with

40:19

others about like, oh, my baby,

40:24

or here's temperament in

40:24

general, or those sorts of

40:28

things, so we can start to

40:28

educate those around us so that

40:31

we don't feel that judgment.

40:34

You need to talk

40:34

to my friend, Mackenzie, right.

40:37

Give them her card.

40:42

Oh, it's

40:42

tough. That's such a good

40:44

question. Yes. Okay. There are

40:44

several things that I can't say

40:51

fast enough. One, as a parent,

40:51

you don't have to explain those

40:56

decisions to anybody but your

40:56

co-parent. That's the thing that

41:02

didn't sit with me well for a

41:02

long time. But you don't need

41:07

anybody else to agree besides

41:07

your co-parent. And maybe, you

41:13

know, if you have a childcare

41:13

provider, that would be another

41:15

person that really needs to be

41:15

on board. But otherwise, so

41:19

that's one part of it is you're

41:19

allowed to say, I don't need

41:22

them to understand this. So

41:22

that's one thing I want to say.

41:26

Another one is yes, those

41:26

conversations around temperament

41:29

and helping people around you,

41:29

you know, even your parents,

41:32

well-intentioned grandparents,

41:32

well-intentioned friends, other

41:36

friends who are parents whose

41:36

baby is different than yours,

41:39

all of those people. I'm talking

41:39

about what you know about your

41:44

baby. You know, explaining it in

41:44

terms of, I have seen my baby

41:48

does this and this, and

41:48

sometimes being as forward as

41:53

saying, because sometimes it's

41:53

just hard to have a baby as

41:58

wonderful as they are. And being

41:58

able to say, like, I really just

42:02

need you to listen right now.

42:02

Like, what I really need from

42:04

someone is to just listen,

42:04

because it is so tempting,

42:07

especially those of us who've

42:07

had babies to be like, Oh, you

42:10

know what, with my baby.

42:13

Even when they

42:13

say, well, my sister did this,

42:15

have you tried it?

42:16

Yes. The have

42:16

you tried it? The have you

42:19

tried? I don't want one more

42:19

person to tell me about that.

42:23

Right?

42:26

So my middle

42:26

daughter was super spirited in

42:32

certain different specific ways.

42:32

And we had a heartbreaking

42:36

situation where we had to switch

42:36

caregiving situations. And it

42:41

honestly had to do with

42:41

temperament, and her temperament

42:45

and her neediness. And you know,

42:45

just her. I always called it her

42:49

small emotional bucket, like her

42:49

emotional bucket emptied very

42:53

quickly. And the care that she

42:53

was in was super amazing care.

42:59

Except there weren't enough

42:59

caregivers. And so in her case,

43:03

she needed a place that had more

43:03

than one caregiver, because her

43:08

needs were way too demanding for

43:08

only one person. And so that was

43:13

hard, so hard to leave a beloved

43:13

caregiver recognizing that my

43:18

specific child's temperament

43:18

needed more than one person

43:23

available to fill her little

43:23

emotional bucket. Yes. And

43:27

that's a hard conversation. And

43:27

the super cool thing is that I

43:33

had learned about temperament in

43:33

between my two children. My

43:36

caregiver actually learned about

43:36

temperament about six years

43:40

later, through like she

43:40

legitimately took a training in

43:44

which there was an entire eight

43:44

hour day devoted to temperament.

43:47

And she came to me from a

43:47

different state because she had

43:50

moved, she came to me after that

43:50

training, and said, Oh, my gosh,

43:55

Lori, I finally now understand

43:55

what you meant about her

43:59

temperament and how she needed

43:59

more than one caregiver. And she

44:03

goes, that was a hard pill for

44:03

me to swallow. But I am so glad

44:07

that you stuck to your decision.

44:07

And we repaired a bridge that

44:13

was broken. It was tough. Yes.

44:13

But as that young parent, I just

44:19

knew she needed more than one

44:19

person and I knew that my

44:24

caregiver was going to be

44:24

happier without my baby there.

44:29

Yes. It's

44:29

okay to say it was hard for

44:36

them. Yeah. And I think the

44:36

other thing that we're kind of

44:40

getting at here is we don't

44:40

always talk about it when I

44:43

think about parenting education

44:43

or what we do as parents, but

44:46

your ability to advocate for

44:46

your baby. You know, your

44:51

ability that what are they

44:51

telling me. You work so hard to

44:55

learn what they're telling you,

44:55

and so bringing them to a

44:58

grandparent to watch them for an

44:58

hour or for overnight or for

45:02

whatever it is, you know, at

45:02

finding those people in your

45:05

life who will trust your

45:05

expertise, and then helping

45:08

teach others and advocate for

45:08

your baby. Oh, you know what,

45:12

there's gonna be a really short

45:12

time frame between this and this

45:15

or you know what? She is gonna

45:15

cry and then she's gonna scream

45:19

and it's gonna happen really

45:19

fast. Or he's not gonna cry. And

45:27

so yes, but the communication

45:27

and the advocacy that happens

45:31

when you learn about your baby's

45:31

temperament and to trust

45:35

yourself, and your co-parent.

45:35

And then, okay, this is kind of

45:38

a tough one for me to say. My

45:38

husband and I have a great

45:42

relationship and he's a

45:42

fantastic parent and co-parent.

45:46

But it was a hard thing for us

45:46

to recalibrate. I had maternity

45:49

leave, and he did not have

45:49

maternity leave. And so I had

45:52

spent hours and hours and hours

45:52

and weeks at home with our baby

45:57

one on one. And so it was also a

45:57

matter when there's not equity

46:02

and equality in how much time

46:02

you spend with your baby, or the

46:05

quality of time you're able to

46:05

spend, and your co-parenting

46:08

relationship, that's also a

46:08

factor. And like, I've been

46:11

noticing this, have you seen or

46:11

sometimes there's that knowledge

46:16

sharing of whichever parent has

46:16

spent more time especially when

46:19

that baby is so new. So consider

46:19

that communication and have a

46:23

plan for it before you have a

46:23

baby. If you know how much time

46:27

each of you is gonna get, if you

46:27

get any. Yes, any paid or unpaid

46:33

kinds of time. And so think

46:33

through those things. Great.

46:37

All right. Well, thank you.

46:39

Good question.

46:43

Judgment

46:43

comes and the conversations

46:45

come, alot of it well intended,

46:45

right? Have you ever thought of

46:50

and it's like, everybody tells

46:50

me. Oh, thanks. That's great.

47:00

All right.

47:00

So we've covered

47:00

a lot of things today about the

47:05

babies. I don't think I can say

47:05

it right. I can say looking at,

47:10

what are the milestones? What

47:10

are the things that they are

47:14

working on? And how can we

47:14

recognize what our part was in

47:20

giving them those genes, right,

47:20

and then taking that to a

47:23

different level of understanding

47:23

and thinking about that goodness

47:25

of fit? What else did we do?

47:28

Oh, talking

47:28

about so much. Well, I'm looking

47:31

at how each of those temperament

47:31

traits plays into the different

47:34

tasks, right? We talked a lot

47:34

about sleep. Temperament is a

47:37

huge factor in how babies sleep,

47:37

but also feeding and all of

47:41

those things. So we walked

47:41

through those nine traits and

47:44

what do you have. We talked

47:44

about spirited babies but

47:46

whether you have a low key,

47:46

spunky or spirited temperament

47:50

is a factor in how you parent

47:50

for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

47:54

So next week,

47:54

we're going to talk about

47:57

toddlers and their developmental

47:57

milestones and how temperament

48:01

plays into some of those some

48:01

really big feelings that they

48:05

have, right? Maybe we'll myth

48:05

bust some of those challenges

48:11

that toddlers have. Yeah,

48:11

please. Thanks for coming along

48:15

with us at The Science of

48:15

Parenting and be sure to follow

48:19

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48:19

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48:24

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48:24

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48:27

Please do come along with us as

48:27

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48:30

downs, the ins and outs, and the

48:30

research and reality all around

48:34

The Science of Parenting.

48:35

The Science of

48:35

Parenting is hosted by Lori

48:38

Korthals and Mackenzie Johnson,

48:38

produced by Mackenzie DeJong,

48:41

with research and writing by

48:41

Barbara Dunn Swanson. Send in

48:44

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48:44

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