0:10

Welcome to

0:10

The Science of Parenting podcast

0:12

where we connect you with

0:12

research-based information that

0:14

fits your family. We'll talk

0:14

about the realities of being a

0:17

parent and how research can help

0:17

guide our parenting decisions.

0:20

I'm Mackenzie Johnson, parent of

0:20

two littles with their own

0:22

quirks, and I'm a parenting educator.

0:26

And I'm

0:26

Courtney Hammond. I am a mother

0:28

of two and also in long term

0:28

recovery.

0:30

Yeah, and so

0:30

episode five today, the last of

0:35

the season. How?

0:38

I don't know. Short.

0:41

I know, this

0:41

is a short season, actually. And

0:43

so it's gone really fast.

0:44

But I've loved

0:44

every minute of it.

0:47

Same, same,

0:47

it's probably a good thing that

0:50

not all of it's recorded, like when we're walking through it. It just gets wild. We're just

0:51

having a good time, guys. We're having a lot of fun. Oh, and you

0:52

know, today we do, we get to

1:02

walk into our last episode,

1:02

where we're talking about

1:06

repairing and rebuilding

1:06

relationships. So I mean, we're

1:12

like, I'm like giggly almost in

1:12

just that's the mood I'm in, but

1:15

it's like, this is a serious

1:15

subject. But I think I am just

1:19

like, I'm excited to record

1:19

another episode and talk through

1:23

another one of these with you.

1:23

And yeah, so I guess, like,

1:27

let's just do it.

1:29

I'm excited to

1:29

dig into this subject. I feel

1:31

like this is where I'm at in my

1:31

life. So it's like, this is like

1:35

real time talk for me. It's not

1:35

something that's past, it's not

1:39

something that I have to really

1:39

dig deep down for. This is my

1:42

process. This is where I'm at in

1:42

my process and my journey right

1:44

now. So I'm excited.

1:45

I love that.

1:45

I love that. And you've said

1:47

that to me. I don't remember if it was while we were recording or not. But you're like, oh, I'm

1:49

excited for that one. Oh, I'm

1:52

excited. And we're doing it,

1:52

today we're doing it. Yeah, so

1:56

well honestly, for this first,

1:56

you know, as we usually do our

2:00

research and reality stuff,

2:00

actually, a few times this

2:04

season, we've just kind of started with, okay, let's talk reality. And so not even gonna

2:06

cite anything, just okay, this

2:12

idea of rebuilding and

2:12

repairing. You know, we've

2:15

talked throughout this season on

2:15

good enough parenting and things

2:19

like that. And this idea of

2:19

sometimes we have work to do to

2:24

repair stuff and to rebuild our

2:24

relationship with our kids. And

2:29

so just like, there's going to

2:29

be times when we haven't met

2:31

their essential needs, whether

2:31

those are emotional needs or

2:34

physical needs or what those

2:34

look like. And so regardless of

2:38

where it lands and what we need

2:38

to repair from, just how do we

2:42

do that? Like, I don't know,

2:42

what comes to mind for you,

2:46

whether it's specific

2:46

experiences or advice. When we

2:49

think about repairing and

2:49

rebuilding, what do you think

2:52

of?

2:53

So for me,

2:53

from my experience, and this is

2:55

where I'm at, I'd say just being

2:55

consistent, giving them a safe

2:59

place, letting them have their

2:59

emotional needs met without

3:06

overbearing or being intrusive

3:06

to those emotions and that

3:10

space. Yeah, that's kind of just

3:10

where I've had to start, you

3:13

know. I'm not one of those

3:13

people, you know, those moms

3:16

that have like, hey, you have to

3:16

talk to me because I'm your

3:19

parent. You know, it's whenever

3:19

you want to talk to me. You

3:23

know, and I can, I'm a pretty

3:23

good vibe person, especially

3:26

when it comes to my daughter

3:26

because we are somewhat close in

3:28

age, and kind of grew up

3:28

together. But I can feel when

3:32

I've done something, or if

3:32

something's really pressing on

3:34

her that I may need to intervene

3:34

with. I'll push the envelope,

3:39

but I won't just rip it open. So

3:39

I guess just respecting their

3:42

space, respecting them as a

3:42

human and their emotions and

3:45

being consistent about it, you

3:45

know, is the ultimate way to

3:48

kind of gain trust and repair

3:48

that relationship for me

3:50

personally.

3:51

Oh, yeah.

3:51

Well, I do, I hear that and, you

3:54

know, examples and stories that

3:54

you've shared, or, you know, I

3:58

don't say on the air, but when

3:58

we've been recording and just

4:02

other times of that idea. I

4:02

really hear the holding space,

4:06

right, for their emotions or

4:06

giving space, right? That you

4:10

need space from me from this,

4:10

and I do, I hear a lot of that

4:14

in things that you've shared

4:14

with us and so I think that's

4:17

awesome. I actually went kind

4:17

of, you know, when I was taking

4:21

my notes, or I don't know, what

4:21

do I think of rebuild and

4:25

repair? I kind of went like the

4:25

advisor or maybe it's the

4:29

educator in me. But I'm like,

4:29

let's talk about this, parents.

4:33

But the things that came to mind

4:33

for me were, I have three

4:37

tidbits. One is that when it

4:37

comes to the parent child

4:40

relationship, even if you're an

4:40

adult parent of now adult

4:44

children, I think the ownership

4:44

that comes with rebuilding lands

4:48

on the parent regardless of the

4:48

age of the child. You were the

4:52

adult, you're adults, and are

4:52

the adult. If they're an adult

4:56

now or if they're literally not

4:56

an adult because they're a

5:00

child. And so I think that the

5:00

rebuilding and repairing does

5:04

land on us as parents to

5:04

initiate and to quote unquote,

5:07

be the bigger person. And so I

5:07

think that that's an important

5:11

part of rebuilding and

5:11

repairing. And my second one was

5:15

to hold emotional space for our

5:15

kids. Look at that. And I think

5:19

it's like, yeah, give them

5:19

space. Yeah. But the idea of it,

5:23

right, it's easier to say than

5:23

it is to do. So often, there's

5:27

this level of pride and shame

5:27

and whether that comes from

5:31

trauma, or, you know, just

5:31

things in our personality or

5:34

whatever, that it is hard to

5:34

give up the power. We want to

5:38

assert that power so often over

5:38

our kids, especially if that's

5:42

how we were raised, of like, no,

5:42

hold on, don't walk away from me

5:46

when I'm talking to you, kind of

5:46

thing. And it can be really hard

5:50

to reflect on that, and let that

5:50

go. So yeah, what were you gonna

5:55

say?

5:55

I think this

5:55

ties into that good enough

5:57

parenting that we did a few

5:57

weeks ago, like, it's okay to

6:01

not be super, super on top,

6:01

helicopter parent in a time

6:04

where your child's in distress

6:04

or emotional, like some kind of

6:08

turmoil, it's okay to just let

6:08

them be able to process that.

6:12

And then when they ask

6:12

permission for you to come in,

6:16

and help process through that,

6:16

too, you know. Because when

6:19

someone's always processing

6:19

things for you, and they're

6:23

always, you know, solution based

6:23

and doing it for you, that child

6:27

just kind of, you know, what

6:27

happens now, now you're not

6:30

here, you know. When in my case,

6:30

I left, I got up and left, I

6:34

left my daughter with nothing

6:34

for a very young age. And then I

6:38

had to become, this is where I'm

6:38

gonna touch on the selfish

6:42

thing, you know, my life is

6:42

really selfish today. Not in a

6:46

bad selfish way that people

6:46

mainstream have made it seem,

6:49

but I'm selfish when it comes to

6:49

my recovery, my time, and my

6:53

peace, and my sanity and what

6:53

feeds me and in turn, you know,

6:57

that's me. If I'm doing it for

6:57

me, I have to do it for my

7:01

children as well, especially the

7:01

one who's been old enough and

7:04

has this trauma. She's allowed

7:04

to be selfish with her time and

7:08

her emotions, and I'm okay with that.

7:12

And yeah, and

7:12

I think the line between selfish

7:16

and self-care. And I genuinely

7:16

believe that self-care is not

7:20

selfish, right? Advocate for

7:20

parents that we have to do those

7:23

things. And that, especially

7:23

when it comes to being in long

7:27

term recovery from substance use

7:27

that, you know, like you said,

7:29

you have to prioritize that

7:29

recovery above other things. And

7:35

I was reading some articles in

7:35

prep for this, you know, even

7:38

blog posts from addiction

7:38

counselors and things like that.

7:41

And one quote that really stuck

7:41

with me was a parent saying, I

7:43

don't regret the things I did to

7:43

get to recovery, like to get to

7:47

a place where I was no longer

7:47

using substances, because it got

7:50

me here, right? And I'm alive,

7:50

and I can be present with my

7:53

kids or, you know, whatever that

7:53

is. I don't regret that. But I

7:56

do regret how some of those

7:56

things hurt my kids. Like it was

8:00

the choice I needed to make in

8:00

that time. Yeah, and it was a

8:02

hard choice, right? And it was

8:02

less harmful, right, going back

8:06

to harm reduction, it was less

8:06

harmful than my active addiction

8:10

was to my kids. But that doesn't

8:10

mean that because it was the

8:14

less harmful that it wasn't at

8:14

all. And that was just really, I

8:18

mean, almost makes you teary,

8:18

honestly, just thinking about

8:22

hard choices sometimes that we

8:22

made the best choice we knew how

8:25

in that moment. And even if we

8:25

wouldn't change the choice, it

8:29

doesn't mean that our child

8:29

didn't have a hard time with it.

8:33

I've shared this story

8:33

previously on here that my

8:38

daughter sometimes still talks

8:38

about when her brother was born.

8:41

And I was nursing him and so I

8:41

would typically put him to bed

8:45

because I was nursing and my

8:45

husband would put her to bed. My

8:49

son is, you know, it's almost

8:49

three years later, three well,

8:52

depending on when he started,

8:52

four to three years later, and

8:56

my daughter still talks about that sometimes, like you spend more time with him. And that was

8:57

the choice we were making. It's

9:01

what I had the capacity for at

9:01

the time, was like, I can just

9:04

nurse him and put him to bed.

9:04

It's more work to nurse him,

9:07

right. And that was what made

9:07

sense for us. And it was hard

9:10

and it hurt her. Like that

9:10

feeling of like feeling. It's

9:14

come up in other ways, sometimes

9:14

for her, feeling forgotten. And

9:19

again, it was not an active

9:19

choice that I thought it was

9:23

gonna hurt her. In fact, it

9:23

didn't even really occur to me

9:25

at the time that that was hard

9:25

on her, which now I'm like, how

9:29

did I not see that? But it's not

9:29

how it's like, I don't know. And

9:33

so that was, it's a thing that

9:33

I'm still working on, like

9:37

repairing and rebuilding from.

9:37

Yeah. And so part of that, you

9:41

know, going back this whole idea

9:41

of emotional space is even

9:45

though inside I'm like, I did

9:45

the best I knew how, that isn't

9:49

my daughter's problem, if I'm

9:49

really honest. Like I can tell

9:54

her that was the best I knew how

9:54

to do but I still need to have

9:57

that space for her to say, and

9:57

it hurt me. Yeah, and it's hard

10:01

for me. And so I think that's

10:01

the emotional space is taking

10:05

your defensiveness out of it,

10:05

when we've done something that

10:08

has hurt our kids, practicing

10:08

that active listening, and yeah,

10:13

letting them share if they want

10:13

to. They might not even want to

10:16

tell you about like, talk to you

10:16

about it. Yeah. And so I do, I

10:19

think those are important

10:19

components of it. And then the

10:22

other, the third tidbit that I

10:22

wrote when I was thinking about

10:25

when it comes to rebuilding,

10:25

repairing, I think it's also

10:29

letting our child have what it

10:29

is they need. And so I think

10:34

sometimes we want to like guess

10:34

or prescribe what our child will

10:37

likely need for us to rebuild or

10:37

repair. And so I wrote a whole

10:41

list actually. I was like, okay,

10:41

what they need to move forward

10:44

might be an apology, right? They

10:44

might need apology from us. It

10:47

might be that it needs space. It

10:47

might be that they need just

10:50

time, which is like time and

10:50

space, like the amount of time

10:52

to pass. It might be family

10:52

therapy, right? It could be they

10:58

just need, I actually don't want

10:58

to talk about that thing. I'd

11:01

rather just have positive time

11:01

with you. That might be what

11:04

they want right now. And it

11:04

might be that they need you to

11:08

demonstrate over time how

11:08

something has changed or how

11:11

it's not gonna happen again. So

11:11

it's like, there's all these

11:13

things that could be that your

11:13

child might want. And so I just

11:17

think, I mean, some of it could

11:17

be the age of your child, their

11:21

temperament, what the incident

11:21

was, right? There's so many

11:23

factors, but also being prepared

11:23

that what you think, oh, well, I

11:29

need to give them space. Your

11:29

child might be like, no, I need

11:32

you to spend time with me. Like,

11:32

I need to be close to you. But

11:36

you might be like, yeah, I'll give him a big hug. And they're like, nah, don't touch me.

11:40

Yeah. And

11:40

that's okay. I mean, my daughter

11:45

is 13 so she definitely has her

11:45

voice. And I'm proud to say,

11:48

I've maybe made her a little bit

11:48

that way. But at least she knows

11:52

that no is a complete sentence.

11:52

No, period, you know, and I

11:58

respect that. Hey, Lexi, you

11:58

want to go with me? Or go to the

12:02

mall? Nope. Okay. I offered.

12:05

You know,

12:05

that wasn't what you wanted or

12:07

needed in this moment. Well, and so thinking about this

12:26

idea of repairing and

12:29

rebuilding, one important

12:29

component that often comes up is

12:33

the idea of apologies, right?

12:33

And so in previous episodes when

12:37

we talked about the idea of

12:37

repairing, we've often talked

12:41

about on a small scale of like,

12:41

I got angry with you in this

12:45

moment. And then I'm

12:45

apologizing, right? And so that

12:49

might happen within the same

12:49

day, or within a few hours. But

12:53

yeah, repairing can also happen

12:53

after like a bigger, right. And

12:57

so an apology could be this

12:57

like, quote unquote, smaller

13:01

scale. There's these different

13:01

levels of how intense the harm

13:05

or how long it was going on,

13:05

things like that. But I got kind

13:09

of dorky about it. And I was

13:09

like, so what does research say

13:13

about apologies, like digging

13:13

into the actual studies. And so

13:17

I found this, it's like a model,

13:17

I mean, kind of like a

13:21

framework. I love those. The

13:21

five parts of an apology. And

13:25

it's actually from 1981. So I

13:25

found something from Schlenker

13:29

and Darby. And they highlight

13:29

five components of an apology.

13:33

So it's from way back, because

13:33

it was really foundational. So

13:37

people still reference it, but

13:37

when they were first defining it

13:41

in the research, here's the five

13:41

parts. They say there's a

13:45

statement of the apologetic

13:45

intent, right? So like, I'm

13:49

sorry, or I apologize, right?

13:49

Second part is the expression of

13:53

remorse or sadness or

13:53

embarrassed, right? That there's

13:57

an emotion like, I'm having a

13:57

response to the fact that I did

14:01

this thing and it hurt you,

14:01

right, so there's an expression

14:05

of emotion. Number three is that

14:05

it offers to help the injured

14:09

party or make some kind of

14:09

restitution. And restitution is

14:13

kind of making up for it. And so

14:13

I sometimes will ask my kids, I

14:17

used to be like, you need to say

14:17

sorry. And I work really hard to

14:22

say, how can we make it better?

14:22

So sometimes an adult saying the

14:26

words, I'm sorry, but sometimes

14:26

it's like, I will help you put

14:30

this thing back together. Right?

14:30

Or I'm really sorry that I, like

14:35

part one is like, I'm sorry that

14:35

I blank. I feel so bad that I

14:39

made you feel this way. Could I

14:39

make up for it with blank,

14:43

right? So there's an idea of, I

14:43

want to do something about it.

14:47

Okay, and then this number four,

14:47

I actually had to Google to

14:51

learn what this word means,

14:51

self-castigation, and I was

14:55

like, I don't know what that is.

14:55

What is that? Basically, it's

14:59

like taking responsibility. Ah,

14:59

yeah, I had to look at what

15:03

Google says, dictionary.com for

15:03

me. But yeah, basically the

15:07

self-castigation is like taking

15:07

on the punishment, taking the

15:11

blame. I see it as owning your

15:11

stuff, right? Like I did, I

15:15

yelled at you or I abandoned you

15:15

or you know, whatever that thing

15:20

is that you're repairing from.

15:20

And so the like, yeah, taking

15:24

ownership, I'm going to call

15:24

number four, instead of that

15:27

self-castigation, but I learned

15:27

a new word today. And then

15:31

number five is the direct

15:31

attempts to obtain forgiveness.

15:35

So asking the person, could you

15:35

ever forgive me? Or, it's okay

15:39

if you need time, right? But

15:39

talking about that, like, that

15:43

is the thing that you're

15:43

hopefully seeking. Yeah. Okay,

15:47

so there's five parts. But there

15:47

were more. I wasn't done after

15:51

five parts. Okay. Like she is a

15:51

dork. Okay, but I thought this

15:56

was a really important part of

15:56

okay, there's two more parts.

16:00

One, the authors, Schlenker and

16:00

Darby, said that not all the

16:04

components are used in all

16:04

apologies. So it's not like a

16:07

framework and that you must have

16:07

these five parts. It's more of a

16:12

mix and match kind of situation.

16:12

And I thought this was really

16:16

interesting. The more severe the

16:16

issue or predicament, the more

16:20

likely or more appropriate to

16:20

use more components. Right. So

16:24

like, if I step on your toes, I

16:24

will probably not be like, I'm

16:29

so sorry. I'm so embarrassed,

16:29

right? Like, I'm trying to think

16:33

of all five parts. The how can I

16:33

make this up to you? Do you need

16:37

an ice pack? This was all my

16:37

fault. Do you forgive me? I

16:41

guess that'd be like, all five

16:41

parts. Right. And so that was

16:45

like a minor infraction if you

16:45

will, yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Are

16:49

you okay? Um, and that makes

16:49

sense. Or on the more intense

16:53

and of harm done, right, that it

16:53

might include all five parts or

16:57

four. So I thought that was

16:57

really interesting, that smaller

17:01

infraction, if you will, was

17:01

like a simpler apology, versus

17:05

something that's more extensive

17:05

or in depth, there's a more in

17:10

depth or extensive apology. I

17:10

just thought that was like,

17:14

that's logical, but I wouldn't

17:14

have thought of it that way.

17:17

Okay, and then one more, because

17:17

I was really into this. And so

17:22

one more thing was they were

17:22

talking about of all the

17:25

research around these different

17:25

components, right, those five

17:29

components of apologies, Combs

17:29

and Holiday, so this was in

17:33

2008, they published something

17:33

that said, the centerpiece of an

17:38

apology is the component where

17:38

you're acknowledging

17:41

responsibility. Oh, yeah. And so

17:41

it's like, when you look at the

17:45

five components, a statement of

17:45

apology, expressing your

17:49

remorse, offering to make it

17:49

better, accepting blame, and

17:53

direct attempt to get

17:53

forgiveness, the most important

17:56

she'd be like, oh, mom, why

17:56

didn't you take me shopping? And

17:57

one, like the centerpiece of the

17:57

apology, is acknowledging

18:01

responsibility. And so

18:01

regardless, I just thought that

18:04

was interesting of okay, so

18:04

might not use all five parts all

18:08

the time. When it's more

18:08

intense, or a more harmful

18:09

I was like, well, because I was

18:09

respecting, you know, I was just

18:12

thing, we're more likely to use

18:12

more pieces. And then on a

18:16

smaller scale, what's likely

18:16

most important, like what's at

18:16

giving you space. I didn't know,

18:16

you know. We vibe, me and her,

18:20

the center, regardless of how

18:20

intense it was, is that

18:20

we've figured each other out.

18:20

We're a whole vibe.

18:23

acknowledging responsibility.

18:23

It's so logical, but also

18:27

insightful at the same time.

18:27

Like that makes sense. And, wow,

18:29

So usually

18:29

with an apology, you know,

18:31

that makes so much sense. Yeah. Right.

18:33

normally people don't even think

18:33

about how true is the apology.

18:36

Like when we apologize

18:36

unnecessarily?

18:38

Saying, oh, I'm sorry, or oh,

18:38

I'm sorry, you did this so I

18:44

actually had to go over here

18:44

like now you're just reversing

18:49

you know. Yeah, actually I was just in

18:53

your way, I'm sorry. It's super

18:58

simple yet super direct and I

18:58

statements you know, like I was

19:03

here. I caused this rather than,

19:03

oh, well, someone over here did

19:08

this and the dog was barking

19:08

over there in the bush, so I

19:10

decided to accidentally wreck my

19:10

car. No, I wrecked my car, just

19:14

say it, you know.

19:17

I love an I statement, Courtney. That's a thing we do is I statements. I

19:18

love it.

19:21

I've been

19:21

diligent lately and I try to use

19:24

I statements.

19:26

I love it. I

19:26

love it. Okay. But I do think as

19:33

we think about this idea of

19:33

apologies that you know, I said

19:38

something earlier about how

19:38

pride and shame sometimes get in

19:42

the way and there is a level of

19:42

vulnerability. And I don't know

19:50

what word I want to use, like

19:50

almost kind of lowering

19:53

yourself, not in a putting

19:53

yourself down kind of way, but

19:57

in being willing to show up in a

19:57

way that is not having it all

20:03

together or being in charge. And

20:03

for some of us that might be in

20:07

direct conflict with how we feel

20:07

like we should be as a parent.

20:11

If you tend to have a more

20:11

authoritarian parenting style,

20:13

or if you were raised with

20:13

someone with a more

20:17

authoritative parenting or

20:17

authoritarian, sorry, I don't

20:20

remember which one I said the first time.

20:23

The authoritarian.

20:24

Okay, thank

20:24

you. I was like, what did I say?

20:27

I don't know. They're similar,

20:27

those words. So authoritarian,

20:31

being typically more like power,

20:31

asserting power and things, less

20:35

responsive to the child's needs.

20:35

Authoritative does assert power,

20:39

but also with responsiveness to

20:39

the child's needs. So that's the

20:44

difference. And so yeah, if you

20:44

were raised by someone that is

20:48

more authoritarian, so focusing

20:48

more on the power of it, you

20:52

might not have seen this modeled

20:52

for you. There's a lot of people

20:57

who cannot even think of a time

20:57

their parents ever apologized to

21:01

them. And so this can be

21:01

especially hard, like you might

21:05

be, like you said, starting from

21:05

scratch on apologizing to my

21:09

kids. I don't know about that,

21:09

that like my parents never did.

21:13

And so I think that's something

21:13

to reflect on, you know, as we

21:17

think about whether a, quote

21:17

unquote, minor infraction or

21:21

something more harmful in the

21:21

long term. Where do apologies

21:25

fit for you? How hard is that

21:25

for you? What's the work that

21:29

you need to do to work towards

21:29

getting there? Sometimes, you

21:33

know, apologies can come in the

21:33

form of, I'm sorry. Sometimes we

21:38

make up for it in other ways but

21:38

not ever accepting

21:41

responsibility. You know,

21:41

there's impact of that, I think,

21:45

well, not I think. Actually, the

21:45

next thing we're gonna talk

21:49

about talks about that, you

21:49

know. But I do think it's worth

21:53

acknowledging that, again,

21:53

easier said than done. For some

21:57

of our listeners, right, oh,

21:57

yeah, of course, I apologize to

22:01

my kids. My parents apologized

22:01

to me. For some people, this was

22:05

so normal, what do they mean?

22:05

There's other people like,

22:09

unheard of, foreign. Yes. So

22:09

it's alright, wherever you are,

22:13

where you are on that. And just

22:13

reflect on that, where do you

22:17

want to be if your goal is to

22:17

rebuild and repair relationships

22:22

with your children? What feels

22:22

like a good next step for you?

22:26

And like, that's okay to be good

22:26

enough.

22:31

So, no perfection?

22:33

Yes.

22:33

Progress, not perfection, for

22:35

sure. Okay, so I told you, we

22:35

were going to talk about the

22:38

next part. This is actually our

22:38

strategy is the idea of rupture

22:44

and repair. So this actually

22:44

comes from the book, Parenting

22:47

from the Inside Out by Dan

22:47

Siegel and Mary Hartzell. And so

22:50

we've cited Dan Siegel stuff on

22:50

the podcast quite a bit. He has

22:53

several parenting books and he's

22:53

just a really great parenting

22:57

expert, looks at a lot of

22:57

research and things. So that's

23:00

his basic idea of rebuilding is

23:00

talking about rupture and

23:03

repair. And I loved that visual

23:03

of thinking about, like incident

23:08

or infraction, if you will, is

23:08

like a rupture. I just love that

23:12

of like, I think of like a

23:12

fracture, like a break. And so

23:17

it's like, there was a break in

23:17

our connection for whatever that

23:20

was. And yeah, it might have

23:20

been like a long time, a short

23:22

time, or whatever. And it just

23:22

left thinking about as a rupture

23:26

was about that. So they defined

23:26

rupture as a disconnection or

23:31

misunderstanding between a

23:31

parent and a child. And so they

23:35

explained that there's different

23:35

kinds of ruptures. So they even,

23:38

I love they use this example of

23:38

limit setting ruptures, so if my

23:42

child super wants to do

23:42

something, I'm like, nope,

23:44

that's not gonna work. And then

23:44

my child's really mad about it.

23:48

I was doing what I needed to do,

23:48

right, I was keeping my child

23:51

safe. It's not that I did

23:51

something wrong but it was a

23:54

disconnection, right? It's a

23:54

disconnection between my child

23:56

and I and so that's a form of

23:56

rupture. And I was like, that's

24:00

great. And so repairing in that

24:00

case likely wouldn't be an

24:03

apology. But it might just be

24:03

doing something for positive

24:07

connection. Yeah, that was

24:07

really interesting, the

24:09

different kinds. They also

24:09

talked about that toxic ruptures

24:12

are a thing, right? And that

24:12

would be that involves intense

24:15

emotional distress or long term

24:15

experience to the child. And so

24:19

again, we're like that spectrum

24:19

of, quote unquote, minor

24:22

infraction to major, or like

24:22

minor harm to major, that

24:27

they're all a form of rupture. I

24:27

thought that was great. And then

24:31

the other thing they talked about, which I thought was important to touch on, is that

24:33

shame is bred when there is a

24:36

toxic rupture that does not have

24:36

repair. And I'm like, I almost

24:41

like need to sit in that a little, right?

24:43

No, for sure. Or there's a rip in your

24:44

favorite blanket, yeah, your

24:44

Yeah, that

24:44

shame. But shame is bred when

24:47

there is a toxic rupture between

24:47

a parent and child that never

24:51

gets repaired. And so that

24:51

brings shame for the child and

24:55

you know, and honestly for

24:55

probably for the parent too, and

24:59

so, ah, that's heavy, right?

24:59

Okay, I wasn't ready for that

25:03

today. But I did like this idea

25:03

of thinking of it as a rupture.

25:07

And I also think because a

25:07

rupture doesn't feel permanent

25:11

in my mind, like that word in

25:11

particular doesn't feel

25:14

permanent. It's like, uh oh,

25:14

this happened. I'm like, okay,

25:18

I'm always picturing like, okay,

25:18

this is a silly like magicians,

25:22

like the jelly bean jar, you

25:22

open the jelly bean jar and

25:26

stuff pops out of it. I'm

25:26

literally picturing or like a

25:30

jack of the box, I guess would

25:30

be another example that like,

25:34

rupture, something pops out of

25:34

it. And then you stuff it back

25:38

in and not. Okay, that's not a

25:38

very good image cuz you don't

25:42

just want to stuff it in. But

25:42

like you're repairing it, you're

25:46

gonna put them back together. childhood blanket ripped it,

25:53

someone tore it up on the

25:56

playground. You know, take it to

25:56

mom, what do you want her to do?

26:10

Not aggressively, right. That's

26:10

not the goal. But I do love

26:13

that, right, like sewing it up,

26:13

that we're repairing it. And so

26:15

Throw it in the trash? You want

26:15

her to sew it up.

26:17

Dan Siegel and Mary Hartzell

26:17

talked about when we repair,

26:20

that repair is actually an

26:20

interactive process. And I had

26:24

to really think about that. I

26:24

was like, I think of repairing

26:28

is like I'm coming to you and

26:28

walking probably through some of

26:31

those components of the apology.

26:31

And like almost, honestly, kind

26:35

of almost lecture style of, I'm

26:35

gonna say this thing to you. And

26:39

That's way better than my stuff

26:39

it back in example.

26:39

they're like, no, hold on. It's

26:39

not just what's happening.

26:43

You're not just saying sorry.

26:43

You're not just trying to

26:44

I'm just thinking of like,

26:44

someone stuffing stuffing back

26:46

repair, you're letting the child

26:46

right, going back to emotional

26:49

in a stuffed animal. And I'm

26:49

like, Oh, no. Ow, ow.

26:50

space. You're letting the child

26:50

have their experience, and

26:54

they're gonna share things back

26:54

with you. And actually, it

26:56

That's when it festers and just

26:56

becomes trauma.

26:57

wasn't that you did that, it was

26:57

this other thing. And so that I

27:01

thought it was a great point

27:01

that was interactive. They also

27:05

made a big point that parents

27:05

need to be centered, like you

27:08

need to be in a good place. And

27:08

so they talked about, like, what

27:12

do you need to do to take care

27:12

of yourself so you're ready to

27:16

show up when you repair in a

27:16

mature, kind way? And they're

27:20

like, do you need to go for a

27:20

walk? And they didn't say this,

27:23

but do you need to go to

27:23

therapy? Do you need to process

27:27

what happened? And I'm a big

27:27

believer in therapy so that was

27:30

not a sarcastic joke, genuinely

27:30

talk with someone and process

27:34

it. But I thought that was a

27:34

really important part of in

27:38

order to show up fully,

27:38

presently, maturely. Not like

27:41

getting into defending yourself.

27:41

Yeah, that when you go to make

27:45

that repair, that you can be

27:45

fully present in that. And that

27:48

also reminds me of some of the

27:48

conversations we've had around

27:52

recovery, that your recovery

27:52

capital and things like that.

27:56

And even your coping skills that

27:56

you have as a parent, that

27:59

you're prepared, that this might

27:59

be hard for you, like it might

28:03

be hard, it likely will be hard

28:03

to hear from your child about

28:07

how you were hurtful to them.

28:07

And so being sure that you are

28:10

in a place that you can show up

28:10

maturely and that it will be

28:14

hard and that you have a plan

28:14

for coping with it. That is not

28:18

the child's responsibility. So

28:18

that was a really important

28:21

point. Another thing they said

28:21

about repairing is that you

28:25

can't ignore the rupture and

28:25

repair, so if you lost it, if

28:29

you like flipped your lid, as we

28:29

say. If you lost it on your kid,

28:33

just coming back and oh, hey,

28:33

how's it going? And like being

28:36

chummy or trying for positive

28:36

connection without ever saying

28:40

anything when there has been a

28:40

severe rupture, you can't ignore

28:44

it. That doesn't repair, it

28:44

doesn't actually move it forward.

28:51

Yeah. Yeah. That's when the

28:51

rupture becomes trauma.

28:56

And now we're

28:56

damaged.

29:00

I don't like the word damaged.

29:02

I feel damaged

29:02

because I'm in my own kind of

29:05

like, yeah.

29:06

You're owning that word for yourself. You're not calling someone else that.

29:08

But I also

29:08

embrace that word now. Like, my

29:11

damage has made me such a good

29:11

human being that like, I'm proud

29:15

to say, yeah, I'm a little

29:15

damaged, but it's what makes me

29:19

So, yeah,

29:19

like that you've been through

29:19

me. it. Absolutely. So yeah, I

29:21

thought that was a really

29:24

important point that we can't

29:24

just ignore it. And yeah, that

29:27

it festers to trauma. Great

29:27

point. So then they do talk

29:30

about apologies as a really

29:30

important part of that repair.

29:34

Right? So what you just kind of

29:34

went through, they talked

29:37

specifically about getting onto

29:37

your child's level or getting in

29:41

a child like your child's space,

29:41

not in their bubble space, but

29:44

like a space that they're

29:44

comfortable, right? And getting

29:47

to their level that you're

29:47

stating what you're talking

29:51

about with the repair like hey,

29:51

you know, earlier I did this

29:54

thing or, you know what, a few

29:54

years ago, I still think about

29:57

this sometimes like a few years

29:57

ago when I did X. And so that

30:01

you're coming to them sharing

30:01

the intent, that you're

30:04

listening to their thoughts or

30:04

feelings without interrupting

30:07

and without defending yourself.

30:09

Sitting on

30:09

your hands method? That's what I

30:12

call it. That's the active

30:12

listening that I learned is feet

30:17

are firmly on the ground, you

30:17

know, sitting on my hands, I'm

30:20

listening.

30:21

Yep, and I'm

30:21

letting you say things that I'm

30:24

like, no, no, no, that wasn't

30:24

it. Nope, we're not doing that.

30:28

We're letting them. Sit on our

30:28

hands. Love that.

30:32

And I've been,

30:32

I've been sitting on my hands, I

30:36

say sitting on my hands, like

30:36

I've been doing. But ever since

30:39

I was in the middle of my active

30:39

addiction, I went to this

30:41

parenting seminar for family

30:41

treatment court. And we had to

30:45

learn how to like literally sit

30:45

on our hands and listen to our

30:47

children, because we were

30:47

repairing the relationship

30:49

inside the court system. And

30:49

ever since then, I've been like,

30:52

alright, I'm going to sit on my

30:52

hands, you just say what you

30:54

need to say. And then, you know,

30:54

Liam, he sits on his hands if

30:58

he's still angry, like, we sit

30:58

on our hands. So that way, we're

31:02

not harming nobody, we're not

31:02

giving off weird body language,

31:07

sit on our hands.

31:08

Nice. I love

31:08

that. I love that. And then the

31:13

last part they talked about with

31:13

apologies, they talked about

31:15

console, and then connect after,

31:15

right. So when you're bringing

31:20

up this repair that your child

31:20

may have hard feelings or strong

31:24

feelings about it and so that

31:24

you're providing comfort to

31:27

them. Again, not in the way of

31:27

defending yourself, but just

31:29

like, this was really like,

31:29

you're really sad about this or

31:32

you're really hurt or just

31:32

validating that and sitting with

31:36

it and comforting them. And then

31:36

that you're, you know, finding

31:39

ways that connect, like finding

31:39

ways to connect that are

31:42

appropriate for you and the

31:42

child. So those are things they

31:46

talked about, but I love that

31:46

idea of picturing it as like a

31:49

rupture or repair, rupture and

31:49

repair, we're gonna do both. If

31:53

it ruptures and we're going to

31:53

repair. I love that idea of

31:58

thinking about those things and

31:58

the whole genuine apology what

32:01

it's like, what does an apology

32:01

look like? And yeah, the new

32:04

word that I learned that I

32:04

already can't remember is

32:07

self-castilation. Did I get that

32:07

right? Like, is that right?

32:10

Castigation. I don't know what a

32:10

castilation is, I made that up.

32:13

Self-castigation. Basically,

32:13

we're gonna own our stuff. We're

32:17

gonna take your sensibility.

32:17

Like why do they have to call it

32:19

that, that was hard for me to

32:19

remember. Yeah. Oh, but okay,

32:25

before we go to our Stop.

32:25

Breathe. Talk. space, anything

32:27

else that you wanted to share

32:27

about, you know, rebuilding and

32:31

repairing, rupturing, repairing,

32:31

and like any other R words?

32:37

So I will

32:37

share my experience. Like I said

32:40

in the beginning of the podcast,

32:40

I'm in this process as of like,

32:43

as we speak right now. I feel

32:43

like I'm going to be in this

32:45

process for a while and I'm okay

32:45

with that. There's a lot of

32:49

damages, a lot of ruptures, and,

32:49

you know, my biggest rupture for

32:55

my daughter. I'm sure her

32:55

rupture was when I left her

32:57

completely. She was four years

32:57

old, three or four, I was messed

33:03

up. And I knew that at the time,

33:03

the best harm reduction I could

33:07

do was hand her over to my

33:07

grandma and grandpa. It hurt her

33:11

traumatically. But me being

33:11

around her, probably, you know,

33:16

and I've seen it and it was bad.

33:16

Her seeing me like that was bad.

33:20

So 10 years later, me being

33:20

constantly in and out, being

33:25

constantly making promises, not

33:25

showing up, showing up messed

33:28

up, you know, up until three and

33:28

a half years ago, was a

33:32

completely ignored rupture. And

33:32

that's been something that I've

33:36

swept under the rug. But I

33:36

really started digging deep in

33:38

myself when I got clean that

33:38

like, hey, I'm going to, I'm

33:41

going to help fix this. And I

33:41

say help fix this because she's

33:45

got to tell me how to help her.

33:45

I can't just go in there and

33:47

erase everything.

33:49

And like tell

33:49

her, this is like look, I fixed

33:51

it for you.

33:52

I'm clean,

33:52

like, no, no, no, no. I thought

33:55

it was that easy. But no, I feel

33:55

like it's really important to

33:59

put this on the table, because a

33:59

lot of people are like, oh, man,

34:04

I did that a couple years ago,

34:04

or 10 years ago. And yeah,

34:07

they'll never forgive me. And

34:07

it's all lost, you know, and all

34:11

hope is kind of, you know, out

34:11

the window. But, you know, I'm a

34:15

big believer as long as we show

34:15

consistency and take ownership

34:19

and help and hold that space,

34:19

that someday it will work out.

34:23

Me and Lexi, like I said just a

34:23

little bit ago, we vibe, we talk

34:28

about our trauma, we talk about

34:28

what I've done to her openly in

34:32

an open, you know, very open

34:32

dialogue. She can get as angry

34:36

or silly or as happy or as upset

34:36

as she wants. And I just kind of

34:40

take it. You know, I didn't give

34:40

her the choice to take it when I

34:44

was dishing it out. So now I

34:44

choose. So I feel like there's

34:48

always hope and I feel like this

34:48

is the kind of real vital time

34:52

in our repair, where she's

34:52

becoming a young woman. She's

34:56

not a child no more. And it's

34:56

important for me to be able to

35:00

model what I'm modeling in this

35:00

podcast and what we're talking

35:04

about, because it shows the

35:04

interactive. It shows the center

35:08

parent. It shows that I cannot

35:08

be ignored because this is the

35:12

effects, you know. And then the

35:12

apology, my apology is in my

35:16

everyday living amends, being

35:16

there for her on softball days,

35:20

making sure she has a sleepover,

35:20

you know, once every couple of

35:24

weekends, you know. Making sure

35:24

that she can trust me, in order

35:28

for this process, to trust the

35:28

process is still working. Yeah.

35:32

And that's just kind of my

35:32

experience with it. I've had a

35:36

lot of mess ups. Yeah, there's

35:36

nothing I wouldn't do to fix

35:39

that and take accountability for

35:39

it today.

35:42

Courtney,

35:42

that's so powerful. And, you

35:46

know, I think that's also a

35:46

really important thing we want

35:48

to make sure we touch on to

35:48

listeners. Yeah, one of the

35:51

questions here is probably, but

35:51

is it too late? Right. And so my

35:55

kids are pretty young. And so

35:55

even too late now is less than

35:59

10 years ago. But I even think

35:59

of if you are an adult to your

36:02

adult parent, you're parenting

36:02

adults. You know, the power that

36:07

can go into apologizing for

36:07

something or repairing something

36:10

even again, that could have been

36:10

decades ago. That it's not too

36:14

late. How did you say it earlier

36:14

when we were talking about this

36:18

idea?

36:19

Oh, the tree thing?

36:21

No, it wasn't the tree thing. You said something about when? Okay, I'm

36:23

gonna think of it. I know I'm

36:27

gonna think of it. That when we

36:27

were talking about it's never

36:29

too late. Oh, really, almost to

36:29

let it go.

36:35

Yeah. So that

36:35

was the tree thing. So like,

36:37

yeah, you're on your life

36:37

journey. You're driving along,

36:40

and you're on this amazing,

36:40

beautiful mountain trail. And

36:44

every couple years, or every

36:44

couple of feet or miles, you see

36:47

the same spruce tree. And it's

36:47

like, wow, I swear, I just

36:51

passed that tree. I think I'm

36:51

going in a circle here, like,

36:54

but everything else looks kind

36:54

of different. You know, you're,

36:56

you're still confused. But when

36:56

you let that trauma go or when

37:02

it's repaired. When that rupture

37:02

is now not ignored, and is in

37:05

the middle of repairing that

37:05

tree finally, like flies by and

37:08

you're like, oh, rearview

37:08

mirror, okay. And I know that

37:10

tree is behind me now. And then

37:10

you just keep going along, and

37:12

you never see that spruce tree

37:12

again. And if you do that, it's

37:15

not so profound. You've moved

37:15

on. You're no longer sitting

37:19

here spinning your wheels, like

37:19

why am I still here? Why am I

37:22

still in this place? Why is it

37:22

so new to me? Every time I see

37:27

that tree, I had to notice it,

37:27

you know. That's kind of the way

37:30

I have to visually look at my

37:30

trauma and ruptures and upsets

37:36

and hard times and hardships,

37:36

you know, like, visually seeing

37:40

it on my journey, wherever this

37:40

journey is going. But that those

37:46

are all those things that just

37:46

kind of stick out.

37:48

Well, and

37:48

actually my brain is also like,

37:52

You definitely

37:52

can't wash it.

37:53

okay, now let's go back to your

37:53

blanket example. Right? So if

38:02

there's a rupture or if there's

38:02

a tear, if that relationship is

38:11

the blanket, the relationship

38:11

between you and your child. And

38:16

But then,

38:16

yeah, even 20 years later, with

38:19

there's been ruptures, maybe

38:19

some of them were addressed. And

38:22

that blanket, stitching it up.

38:22

Right, the benefit of stitching

38:27

it up is still there, even

38:27

though the child might still

38:28

so they got sewn up, and some of

38:28

them weren't like, it's still a

38:29

remember the times when they put

38:29

their foot through the hole, and

38:32

it was cold, or it was whatever,

38:32

that like there's repair there,

38:35

right, that it can get better.

38:35

And the whole idea of letting it

38:37

blanket, right? Like, there's

38:37

still a relationship, but

38:38

go, you know, you were talking

38:38

about how something festers into

38:41

trauma. You know, there might

38:41

still be trauma there, but that

38:44

there's some complicated parts

38:44

maybe or certain pain points,

38:45

it's gonna sew up that hole a

38:45

little more when we offered that

38:50

repair, even if it's a long time

38:50

later, and there could have been

38:52

harm in the meantime before that

38:52

repair happened. But that's

38:53

right? Your child like goes to

38:53

use the blanket and their foot

38:57

going to be huge progress,

38:57

typically. And now, it might not

39:00

be like immediately huge

39:00

progress, but yeah, right. And

39:01

goes through the hole.

39:03

that it's never too late.

39:05

Yeah. And you

39:05

think about how much a child

39:07

loves her blanket. I know

39:07

sometimes Liam, you can't take

39:10

him to daycare. You can't go to

39:10

the gas station. You know, some

39:13

kids are really attached to

39:13

those. So just think about if

39:16

you're attached to that parent,

39:16

and they did that, like oh, no,

39:19

like my blanky failed me. It's

39:19

not keeping me warm anymore.

39:23

That child offering up to you to

39:23

fix that speaks volumes to your

39:28

relationship and how important

39:28

it should be and the priority

39:33

should be to repair.

39:37

Look at all of our little visuals, all of our word pictures.

39:39

I have to, I

39:39

literally have to visualize

39:41

everything.

39:42

I love it.

39:44

I mean, I'm

39:44

just some kind of weirdo.

39:47

No. I love it.

39:51

If I'm literally having to

39:51

analyze like, hey, what needs to

39:55

take priority in my life? And

39:55

what are those things that

39:59

aren't. I think of like little

39:59

woodland animals or like I don't

40:05

know. It's just always been like

40:05

that, like, I'm just on a

40:07

journey. I have no clue where

40:07

I'm going. But there's things

40:11

that stick out.

40:13

You're just

40:13

living your life on this

40:15

mountain trail. That sounds real

40:15

cool to me. It's your visual

40:19

mountain trail journey of life.

40:22

Yeah, so when

40:22

I meditate, that's kind of like

40:25

where I take myself to.

40:26

Oh, I love that.

40:29

It's my space.

40:30

Yeah, no

40:30

wonder that's the visual that

40:32

came to you with the tree. That

40:32

makes so much sense. All right,

40:35

well, now it does bring us to

40:35

our Stop. Breathe. Talk. space

40:38

where we bring in our producer,

40:38

Mackenzie DeJong, and she gets

40:41

to ask us a question.

40:43

Hello, for one

40:43

last time this season. Well, you

40:50

can probably guess, Mackenzie,

40:50

because it is the last episode

40:54

of the season. What is one, and

40:54

honestly, you had just such

41:00

insightful comments, words are

41:00

hard, insightful conversation

41:05

there. I'm kind of like, oh, do

41:05

I need to do more but this is

41:10

more of a reflection on the

41:10

season. What is one either big

41:13

takeaway, one AHA, one hey,

41:13

everybody, keep this in mind,

41:18

one thing that you reflect on

41:18

from this season, that stands

41:23

out to you most?

41:28

There's so

41:28

much good stuff. Do you have

41:32

I'm gonna say

41:32

the resilience thing, man. My

41:32

one, Courtney? mind was blown. Blown. And

41:36

that's how misinformed somebody

41:42

who lives, you know, lived with

41:42

that kind of life. But I was.

41:49

Literally, I'm 31 years old. I

41:49

just found out what resilient

41:52

really meant. And I've been the

41:52

last four weeks, my eyes have

41:57

just been through a whole new

41:57

lens. A whole new lens.

42:01

Yeah. And so that was all the way back in episode one. Yeah, I would say

42:03

for listeners in case they

42:07

haven't listened to episode one

42:07

yet. Okay. We talked about, we

42:09

defined resilience. And then we

42:09

had this really great

42:13

conversation around Courtney's

42:13

like, it's not just, it's not

42:16

just a personal trait. It's not

42:16

like you have resilience, or you

42:19

don't. But it was, right? And

42:19

that is a really important

42:22

thing. Like, when I'm talking

42:22

about it, I'm almost assuming

42:25

people know that. And I'm so

42:25

glad you brought it up and

42:28

slowed us down. I had no clue.

42:30

It's so important. Yeah. And

42:30

that it's not a have it or

42:33

don't.

42:34

Right, and then we could say, Courtney, you've been building resilience

42:36

for years and years and years,

42:40

girl. Yeah.

42:44

I thought you

42:44

either did or you didn't. And I

42:46

was like, okay, I don't, but I

42:46

have a good personality. Like,

42:51

she's so nice. I'm nice. And I'm

42:51

funny. Like, I don't have to be

42:56

resilient because I make up for

42:56

it. That was my like, honestly,

42:59

there was so many great moments

42:59

in this season, though. Like, I

43:02

am so grateful y'all. Like

43:02

beyond grateful.

43:08

Honestly, I

43:08

think for me, it's so many

43:14

things that you shared were,

43:14

one, I think showing up so

43:18

authentically and vulnerably is

43:18

so powerful. And so

43:20

destigmatizing for topics we

43:20

often don't talk about,

43:23

especially in parenting. But I

43:23

just think hearing a different

43:30

perspective from my own is like

43:30

such a powerful reminder. And

43:35

that, yeah, everybody is going

43:35

through it in a different way

43:38

and it's not about my way being

43:38

your way. I don't know, it just

43:42

really, I feel, I'm trying to

43:42

get to my point. Hearing about

43:47

your perspectives and the way

43:47

that you show up and these

43:51

things, that it just really

43:51

solidified to me why more than

43:55

one way is so important. Yeah.

43:55

And like yeah, honestly for me,

44:00

even today as we were talking about authoritative versus authoritarian. And you're

44:02

talking about how sometimes I

44:05

parent from a place of guilt,

44:05

you know. It's something you've

44:07

said is like, sometimes I parent

44:07

from a place of guilt because I

44:09

have done harm to my kids. And

44:09

that I could be even as much as

44:14

I'm like, there's more than one

44:14

way. Sometimes there was, you

44:16

know, a part in the back of my

44:16

mind of like, well don't be too

44:19

permissive. Why would people be

44:19

too permissive? And now I'm

44:22

like, but I totally see how you

44:22

could come from this place of

44:25

like, but I did harm. So now I'm

44:25

like, working so hard to not do

44:29

anything that might harm them

44:29

anymore, that it could end up

44:32

being permissive. And so it's

44:32

just like, there's no place for

44:36

judgment. There's a million

44:36

reasons why, but I just think

44:40

like, I'm just so incredibly

44:40

grateful for you sharing openly

44:44

about your experiences, and I've

44:44

learned so much from you.

44:50

I'm gonna have to have that in writing.

44:52

You're like, will you document that please?

44:54

Transcript,

44:54

closed captioning, so it

44:58

technically will be in writing.

45:00

That's all I need.

45:03

Oh, but yeah,

45:03

thanks for the question, Kenz,

45:06

because there's so much we

45:06

covered this season. And there

45:09

are a lot of great tidbits. But

45:09

I'm like when I really think

45:11

back about what I learned, my

45:11

main takeaway, that's sticking

45:16

And you know,

45:16

you said you did so much this

45:16

with me. season, and we only did it in

45:20

five episodes. Yes, it has been

45:26

an incredible five weeks of

45:26

navigating through all of this

45:31

and just learning from one

45:31

another. And I have gotten the

45:36

honor of just sitting back and

45:36

listening, basically. So thank

45:39

you for being willing to share

45:39

for both of you. But thank you

45:44

also for answering my question

45:44

one last time.

45:47

Yeah.

45:47

Courtney, you did it. You made

45:49

it through all five episodes of

45:49

Stop. Breathe. Talk. questions.

45:53

Congratulations. We knew you

45:53

were resilient.

45:57

I still, like

45:57

I still have a really hard time

45:59

believing I am. I mean, now I

45:59

know the language and the

46:03

meaning I'm like, yeah, but then

46:03

I'm like, am I? I don't know.

46:07

Some work to do there. Yeah, I

46:07

have to uncondition, unlearn,

46:12

myself and accept that I am. But

46:12

I really, really appreciate you

46:19

guys inviting me on here. Like

46:19

super powerful, I love sharing.

46:25

And honestly, now that we've done this, right, for five episodes, I'm like, I

46:27

can't picture it any other way.

46:29

How else could we have possibly?

46:29

This is how. I just said a

46:34

minute ago, there's more than

46:34

one way. There was not more than

46:36

one way to record this way.

46:40

One way to record this season and this was it.

46:43

No, I really appreciate you guys for trusting, you know, for allowing

46:44

me to trust you guys with the

46:48

vulnerability piece. Like

46:48

sometimes it just wasn't

46:51

appreciated for me so or for me

46:51

as in, no one else really

46:56

appreciates it. But my share has

46:56

lessened my pain. So yeah, it's

47:02

like I've healed in five weeks

47:02

more than I've healed in a long

47:06

time.

47:07

Okay.

47:09

No, I promise

47:09

you. I talked to Devin Ronald.

47:13

This is like it. If this is what

47:13

it's like. I can go to a

47:17

therapy. I can talk to people

47:17

but when I really start sharing

47:21

my stuff, and people are like,

47:21

yeah, that makes sense. I'm

47:25

like, you know what? I'm not

47:25

crazy. I was valid. It's just

47:31

been a really good experience. And I really appreciate it.

47:34

Thank you.

47:34

Thank you so much. Oh my gosh,

47:37

okay, now we have to like wrap

47:37

up this episode. What? I'm

47:39

supposed to move on after that.

47:41

More tears here.

47:42

Thank you,

47:42

Kenzi. Bye. Goodness, girl.

47:52

Well, we do, I would say, have a

47:52

few things to wrap up for the

47:56

season. But man, what a solid

47:56

note to end on if we were ending

48:00

there. But I'm so glad that it's

48:00

been a positive experience for

48:04

you because it has been

48:04

obviously for us, too. So

48:07

speaking of positive, my segue,

48:07

positive language, right? Every

48:12

episode, we've done some positive language towards the end. And so, you know, we've

48:14

talked about parenting amid

48:18

threats to safety. We've talked about good enough parenting and resilience and all this stuff,

48:20

rebuilding relationships. And it

48:24

just felt so, this episode, this

48:24

theme really felt really

48:27

important for us to land on. And

48:27

so I'm just glad the last

48:32

positive statement we're gonna

48:32

share is this one. So even with

48:36

my good intentions for parenting

48:36

my children, I have made

48:39

mistakes, and I will make

48:39

mistakes in the future. And I

48:43

have strategies for recognizing,

48:43

repairing and rebuilding the

48:47

relationship. So when we think

48:47

about rebuilding and repairing,

48:52

that we're progress over

48:52

perfection, like you said, and

48:56

that even though I have good

48:56

intent, I have made mistakes. I

49:01

will make other ones. And I have

49:01

strategies, I have stuff I can

49:04

do about that. It doesn't have

49:04

to be a permanent, I don't want

49:08

to say maybe scarring, I guess.

49:08

There might be harm done and we

49:13

can rebuild and repair in that

49:13

relationship. So that was really

49:16

powerful.

49:18

Love that. And I think when we say these positive, this one especially, I

49:20

feel like it gives our kids a

49:24

good direction. You know,

49:24

nothing's ever really set in

49:29

stone. It doesn't have to be,

49:29

things happen. But everything

49:34

can be repaired. And rebuilding

49:34

is possible. You know, like I

49:40

always say, my rock bottom was

49:40

my strongest point because all

49:43

skyscrapers were built in the

49:43

bedrock.

49:45

Oh, I love that! There you go

49:45

with your word pictures.

49:52

I know. And I just feel like

49:52

that right here, this right

49:56

here. I have made mistakes and I

49:56

will make in the future. That's

49:59

just giving somebody's

49:59

permission to give grace. Like,

50:03

some teenagers make mistakes,

50:03

and they don't want to tell

50:05

their parents and it ultimately

50:05

leads down to this bad, bad

50:09

consequences. And this is just

50:09

giving us, you know, when we

50:12

model this, our kids are like,

50:12

okay, mom can make mistakes. So

50:16

can I, and it's gonna be okay.

50:17

Yeah, one

50:17

thing I've really tried to

50:19

infuse into all of these little

50:19

affirmations or whatever, is

50:22

also this element of, what is

50:22

within our control? Especially

50:26

because as parents, often we're

50:26

like, our time doesn't feel like

50:29

our own and our energy doesn't

50:29

feel like our own and all this

50:33

stuff, that whether it's our

50:33

kids or something else, you

50:36

know, that demands for our time,

50:36

and that we do have, there are

50:40

things that are within our

50:40

control. There are things that

50:43

are within our choices. But

50:43

also, especially when we think

50:46

about parenting through

50:46

challenges is what we've been

50:50

talking about all season, that

50:50

it can feel like so much is out

50:53

of control, right? We talk about

50:53

whether it's a natural disaster

50:57

or active addiction, or family

50:57

health, you know, a pandemic,

51:00

right, that stuff can be out of

51:00

our control. But I really tried

51:04

in these affirmations to help us

51:04

find what is within our control,

51:08

right? So what can be within our

51:08

control is our ability and

51:11

willingness to work towards

51:11

repair. And so all those

51:14

language affirmations this

51:14

season, but I do want to give us

51:18

a little rundown in case you

51:18

forgot, or in case you haven't

51:21

listened, if you came in just

51:21

for this episode. What else did

51:25

we cover this season? Well, we

51:25

talked about raising resilience.

51:28

So one of my big takeaways from

51:28

that episode and addition that

51:32

are my remembering that

51:32

resilience is not a personal

51:35

trait. It's something that can

51:35

be built and we do that by

51:38

building our protective factors.

51:38

But I loved also the takeaway

51:42

of, even if we can't control

51:42

that there is adversity, we can

51:45

control how much support we

51:45

offer to our kids. And that when

51:49

it's adversity with support, it

51:49

helps them be resilient. And I

51:52

love that. In episode two, we

51:52

talked about good enough

51:56

parenting. Identifying what

51:56

those essential things are,

51:59

right, when everything else is

51:59

like astray, amuck, crazy town,

52:02

that we can identify, okay,

52:02

sometimes we do have to lower

52:06

the bar. Let's figure out what

52:06

that looks like. And then number

52:09

three was parenting amid threats

52:09

to safety. We talked about harm

52:13

reduction, right, that like,

52:13

yep, ideally, there was no harm.

52:17

But sometimes we just have to

52:17

choose the less harmful of two

52:20

difficult options. And that

52:20

episode also had the hope

52:23

framework of what we can do to

52:23

help protect our kids. Number

52:27

four was co-parenting, custody,

52:27

and kinship care. My big

52:30

takeaway from that one was just

52:30

like, the child comes first,

52:33

right, that we have strategies

52:33

for positive communication,

52:37

right? We talked through a lot

52:37

of stuff, but that there's a lot

52:40

of different situations. And

52:40

that, across those that seems

52:44

like the main priority is that

52:44

our kids need to come first. And

52:47

we need to have it not about you.

52:50

Yeah, not

52:50

about you, not about you.

52:53

And then of

52:53

course, today, we were talking

52:55

about repairing and rebuilding,

52:55

talking a lot about holding that

52:58

space, acknowledging what we've

52:58

done, practicing apologies and

53:02

things like that. So that's what

53:02

it looks like, right, when we're

53:05

parenting through these

53:05

challenges, that there's

53:09

missteps, that there's sometimes

53:09

harm done, that we have

53:12

strategies for apologizing. And

53:12

so I do have a little summary

53:16

that I wrote, as a final message

53:16

on this season of like, as you

53:21

listened and we talked about

53:21

parenting through some really

53:24

serious and scary challenges in

53:24

some serious realities that I

53:28

hope that you also could hear

53:28

hope. Like, I hope that's what

53:32

you, I hope that's what you

53:32

heard was hope. But this idea

53:37

that there is hope, even in

53:37

really challenging

53:39

circumstances, we can raise

53:39

great kids, we can have positive

53:42

relationships with them, that

53:42

some things are not going to be

53:44

totally within our control. And

53:44

we can build support protective

53:48

factors, have strategies for

53:48

building those relationships

53:51

with our kids. So our kids don't

53:51

need a perfect parent. They need

53:55

a parent who strives to show up,

53:55

strives to meet their basic

53:58

needs and practices good enough

53:58

parenting. It's great when we

54:01

can give them more and that's

54:01

not always the reality we live

54:03

in. That has like, as we think

54:03

about what do we say I was like,

54:08

what do we say as we wrap this

54:08

up? I was like, I do want to

54:10

give this message of sometimes

54:10

it was heavy, right? We're

54:13

talking about serious stuff. But

54:13

that there's hope and that

54:16

there's things that we can even

54:16

if we can't control the

54:19

situation, that there are things

54:19

that are within our reach that

54:23

we do have choice about that. We

54:23

can work to protect our kids,

54:26

even if it's not protecting them from everything we wish you could. And so that's just kind

54:28

of the final takeaway I wanted

54:32

to share this season. So like

54:32

we've said, this is our last

54:36

episode and so this is kind of

54:36

your last chance, Courtney.

54:42

I don't know! Just like, you know, I said earlier during the Stop.

54:44

Breathe. Talk. space is yeah,

54:48

you know, I'm just grateful for

54:48

the experience. Like if my story

54:51

is heard by somebody, just one

54:51

person, and they're like, you

54:54

know what, I'm not alone, then

54:54

I've already won. You know,

54:57

like, I'm on the winning track

54:57

to what I want to do, and that's

55:01

to help people. I want to be the

55:01

person that I needed. And I want

55:06

to be the person to my kids that

55:06

I needed. And not that I'm

55:11

always going to show up in a

55:11

white dress, like, you know,

55:15

with everything, but at least

55:15

I'm trying.

55:19

You're showing up.

55:19

Showing up.

55:19

And sometimes I'm not good at

55:20

You haven't accomplished saying

55:20

that word. But otherwise, yeah,

55:24

showing up. So this is just one

55:24

of those things where I had a

55:30

goal I have accomplished. Geez.

55:36

right. Right. Accomplished, terrible word. But

55:37

it's just one of those things

55:42

that like, I've worked really

55:42

hard to be able to sit here and

55:47

commit. Yes, if you would have

55:47

met me three and a half years

55:52

ago, no. So it's just me

55:52

reflecting off my growth like

55:56

yay. I can commit to things. I

55:56

can do good things.

56:01

Did it. Yeah, did it. Well, and I want to thank you for that commitment.

56:01

Because it is. I know, for

56:04

listeners, it's like, yeah,

56:04

there's like five episodes, you

56:07

know, I'm sure it took some

56:07

time. But there's a lot of

56:09

coordination and planning and

56:09

running things through and

56:12

scheduling several people. And

56:12

so it is a commitment. It really

56:16

is. And so thank you for being

56:16

willing to one, being willing to

56:20

make that commitment, but two,

56:20

also sticking with us when there

56:23

were trouble, like troubles

56:23

scheduling and things like this

56:26

along the way. But then I mostly

56:26

just want to again, I know I

56:30

said earlier, but just your

56:30

vulnerability in the authentic

56:33

ways that you have shown up and

56:33

been willing to share things

56:36

with us and help destigmatize

56:36

things that so often we don't.

56:41

And I will admit, so often, I'm

56:41

not thinking about, you know, as

56:45

we think as I'm talking from my

56:45

own perspective, and if that's

56:52

not my lived experience, I don't

56:52

want to say I'm forgetting about

56:54

it, but it's not what I'm

56:54

sharing about. And so I'm so

56:57

grateful for the ways that

56:57

you've reminded me of like the

57:00

variety of experiences we have.

57:00

And yeah, just like I said, the

57:04

more than one way and so I am so

57:04

grateful we got to do this

57:07

season together. Like I said,

57:07

there was no more than one way.

57:09

There was one way to do it, and

57:09

I'm so glad it was this way that

57:11

we recorded this.

57:12

Well, thank you. Look, I'm blushing.

57:13

I know, she's

57:13

blushing, she's blushing. So

57:17

thank you so much, Courtney.

57:19

It gives me

57:19

purpose. Like I'm just, you

57:22

know, I will say this final

57:22

thought. I was just a homeless

57:26

addict in a small town that had

57:26

nothing, not a car, not clothes,

57:31

not a shower, not nothing, no

57:31

food. And then here I am on this

57:34

podcast, and being able to talk

57:34

to you guys has given me a huge

57:38

confidence boost. I can make

57:38

friends. I do matter to people.

57:43

What I say is important. And I

57:43

would never, I mean, I never in

57:47

a million years would have

57:47

thought that I'd be like, hey,

57:49

Mackenzie, she's one of my good

57:49

friends. You know, like, look at

57:52

her. It's amazing to me, I don't

57:52

know, it's just surreal. I have

57:56

to sit back, process it and be

57:56

like, you know what, I'm doing

58:00

good things. I'm not that person

58:00

no more. She's gone. But she's,

58:04

you know, she's made me who I

58:04

am. And I thank her for it. But

58:08

I'm glad I'm here.

58:09

Well, thank you for sharing that story of, yes, resilience, you know, and

58:11

growth and all those things, for

58:15

sharing it with all of us.

58:18

Oh, Mackenzie.

58:19

Well, then

58:19

we'll wrap it up. And I'll say,

58:22

I said thank you to you like eight times. And I feel like I should say more, but I'm going

58:24

to call it there. But I will say

58:27

thank you to our listeners for

58:27

joining us on The Science of

58:31

Parenting podcast and remember,

58:31

yes, we're wrapping it up for

58:34

this season. But you can keep up

58:34

with us on social media,

58:37

Facebook and Twitter

58:37

@scienceofparent and so you can

58:41

see our content in your feed to

58:41

keep up with us between seasons.

58:45

And so come

58:45

along as we tackle the ups and

58:47

downs, ins and outs, and the

58:47

research and reality around The

58:51

Science of Parenting.

58:53

The Science of Parenting is hosted by Mackenzie Johnson, produced by

58:55

Mackenzie DeJong, with research

58:58

and writing by Barbara Dunn

58:58

Swanson. Send in questions and

59:01

comments to

59:01

[email protected] and

59:06

connect with us on Facebook and

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59:09

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59:09

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59:13

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59:13

inquiries go to

59:17

www.extension.iastate.edu/diversity/ext.

59:23

This project was supported by

59:23

the Iowa Department of Health

59:26

and Human Services Bureau of

59:26

Substance Use via a sub award

59:30

for the Substance Abuse and

59:30

Mental Health Services

59:32

Administration of the US

59:32

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59:35

Services. The contents of this

59:35

episode are those of the authors

59:39

and do not necessarily represent

59:39

the official views of nor are

59:42

they an endorsement by Iowa

59:42

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59:49

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