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Hey,

0:01

Mackenzie Johnson here, coming

0:03

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0:03

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0:06

Parenting team has going on

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1:22

Welcome to the Science of

1:22

Parenting podcast where we

1:24

connect you with research based

1:24

information that fits your

1:27

family. We'll talk about the

1:27

realities of being a parent and

1:30

how research can help guide our

1:30

parenting decisions. I'm

1:33

Mackenzie Johnson, parent of two

1:33

littles with their own quirks.

1:36

And I'm a parenting educator. Spender and

1:37

saver, huh?

1:37

And I'm

1:37

Suzanne Bartholomae. I'm an

1:40

associate professor who strives

1:40

to help people increase their

1:40

Yeah, she

1:40

likes to spend my money and save

1:43

financial security. And I'm the

1:43

parent of a high schooler, who's

1:46

a pretty good spender and saver

1:46

actually.

1:51

her money.

1:55

Oh, that's

1:55

good thinking. That's

1:57

resourceful is what that is.

1:57

Yeah. Oh, well, today we get to

2:03

start digging into these

2:03

episodes on talking with kids

2:07

about money at different ages.

2:07

So I finally feel like I will

2:12

have something to contribute here. Hello, my name is Mackenzie. Sometimes I know

2:13

stuff just not very much this

2:16

season about money.

2:19

Back in your wheelhouse.

2:20

Yeah, right,

2:20

back in my wheelhouse. So we're

2:22

gonna be talking about some of

2:22

these developmental stages, and

2:26

how that plays out with how kids

2:26

learn to understand money. And

2:29

so in this episode, we're

2:29

talking about how we talk about

2:32

money, how we teach financial

2:32

skills and knowledge and things

2:36

like that, but we're gonna

2:36

basically lump together all of

2:38

childhood, like everything

2:38

before teen years is in this

2:42

episode. So you're gonna hear us

2:42

kind of separate out between

2:46

preschoolers and school-agers,

2:46

right? So that's like three to

2:49

five years old, versus like six

2:49

to 12 years old. And there's a

2:54

lot of overlap. There's some

2:54

differences. You'll have to keep

2:56

listening for those. But in

2:56

order to have all these

2:59

conversations, we are, we're

2:59

gonna dig into these

3:01

developmental stages. But one

3:01

thing I feel like we haven't

3:05

said, okay, episode four here

3:05

this season, and we were having

3:10

a great conversation with Barb right before this, our colleague, and she was just

3:12

reminding us, so much of the

3:16

stuff that you're talking about

3:16

in these episodes is just

3:18

parenting skills, right? But

3:18

just thinking about it in the

3:21

context of money. I was like,

3:21

yeah, yeah it is, Barb. Look at

3:25

that. She's talking about being

3:25

warm in conversations about

3:29

money. Having expectations of

3:29

our children and helping teach

3:33

them things about money, right?

3:33

Like all these skills we have,

3:37

and maybe we feel more competent

3:37

in. I can say for myself, I feel

3:40

more competent in my parenting

3:40

and other areas. And then I

3:43

think about money and I'm like,

3:43

oh, I don't know. It sounds

3:46

like, yes, I know these things.

3:46

I know some stuff, like we can

3:50

do this.

3:51

You so do and the more I talk to you, the more I'm convinced you're a role

3:53

model for financial parenting. I

3:57

mean, you're doing some really

3:57

good, valuable lessons for your

4:00

kids.

4:01

Well, thanks.

4:01

Yeah, so I've been in my

4:04

wheelhouse all season. But we

4:04

are, we're gonna keep thinking

4:09

about our parenting skills that

4:09

we've been talking about for 11

4:13

seasons, but we're thinking

4:13

about it with newer content,

4:15

with a different context. Right?

4:17

Yeah,

4:17

sorry, yeah. So I think in an

4:21

earlier episode, I said the

4:21

importance of like these

4:23

parenting for general skills

4:23

that are transferable to all

4:24

For sure,

4:24

when we teach our kids about

4:28

other domains, and that's

4:28

certainly true of the financial

4:31

anything, it can be helpful to

4:31

have like appropriate warmth,

4:31

domain that some of the things

4:31

that Barb brought up about

4:35

warmth and affection and

4:35

connectedness and all those

4:41

important aspects of parenting,

4:41

they are relevant in the

4:44

financial domain. right? That it's like coming

4:51

from a loving place, and that

4:54

we're also teaching them things

4:54

they need for the world and have

4:57

expectations of them and hold

4:57

appropriate boundaries and that

5:03

applies here. Great. Yeah. That

5:03

means we have even more

5:07

transferable skills than we were

5:07

giving ourselves credit for.

5:10

Exactly. This isn't as big of a leap as some might feel that it was when

5:12

they heard kids and money. Huh?

5:15

Like, Oh,

5:15

yeah. But we do have a new term,

5:20

right, which love that. And so

5:20

this idea of financial

5:25

capability. So we've talked

5:25

about financial socialization.

5:28

We've talked about financial

5:28

well-being, right. Financial

5:31

Action, right, that was in

5:31

episode two. We've talked about

5:34

a lot of things, financial

5:34

parenting. But this idea of

5:38

capability specifically, and

5:38

we're going to actually follow

5:41

this term through all three

5:41

episodes, like this episode, the

5:44

one on teens, the one on young

5:44

adults. And so this idea of

5:47

financial capability. Tell us

5:47

about that, Suzanne.

5:50

Okay, well,

5:50

you know, the scholarship, and

5:53

when it comes to any kind of

5:53

science is that clarifying

5:56

terms, and so that we're all as

5:56

scholars talking about the same

6:00

thing. And so the field started

6:00

with financial literacy and

6:03

that's still used quite a bit.

6:03

But some would argue that, now

6:07

that we have this new term financial capability, you can't confuse the two. And so

6:09

financial literacy is a more

6:11

narrow term, like knowledge and

6:11

skills, versus financial

6:17

capability is the capacity based

6:17

on knowledge, skills, and access

6:23

to manage resources effectively.

6:23

So it's adding that access

6:26

piece. So these three aspects of

6:26

the definition are necessary for

6:31

financial success. And we've

6:31

talked about access, I think, in

6:34

a previous episode about you can

6:34

have the skills and the

6:37

knowledge, but if you don't have

6:37

the access to the products, the

6:40

services, the resources, then

6:40

you can't execute, you know, the

6:45

goal or the decision that you want to.

6:47

Yeah, well,

6:47

even if we put it in a concrete

6:50

example, like a loan. You might

6:50

know about loans, you might know

6:53

about interest, you might know

6:53

the process even of how to get a

6:55

loan, but if there's nowhere

6:55

locally you can get a loan then

7:01

there's not much capacity,

7:01

right? There's not much

7:03

capability to go actually do it.

7:03

Exactly. And so capability adds

7:09

the knowledge, skills, but it

7:09

adds access, like it's part of

7:12

it.

7:12

Yeah, yeah.

7:12

And so for parents that are

7:15

listening, when we talk about

7:15

financial capability, I want you

7:18

to think about a couple of

7:18

concepts as we go through the

7:22

different building blocks that we're going to talk about in a minute. So numbers is a

7:24

foundational concept of

7:28

financial capabilities. So

7:28

children understanding more or

7:32

less, right? Time is another

7:32

concept. So the concept of

7:37

saving, investing, and then

7:37

thinking about the future. Money

7:41

and income, another concept of

7:41

financial capability, so bills

7:45

and coins, earning money,

7:45

sources of earning money, and

7:48

there's more to these, but I'm just giving you a kind of a layout of some of the simple

7:50

concepts. Choice is another one.

7:54

Choice when there's limited,

7:54

when there's limited resources,

7:58

when there's scarcity and then

7:58

markets and exchange. So this

8:01

idea of prices, and that if I

8:01

exchange, if I give you $1, I'll

8:07

get back x. So those are kind of

8:07

as parents what we should be

8:11

thinking about, like, what are

8:11

the concepts related to

8:13

financial capability? Those are

8:13

kind of the big ones.

8:16

Yes. And so yeah, what are we actually going to talk with our kids about,

8:18

those types of things, right,

8:21

like those concepts that you

8:21

were just getting into. And

8:24

especially when we think about

8:24

starting, you know, we'll talk

8:27

about preschoolers and school

8:27

agers like I said, but that's

8:29

something that really stood out

8:29

to me in some of the literature

8:31

that you shared was, these

8:31

building blocks, these three

8:35

that we're going to talk about,

8:35

they're really starting to build

8:38

in preschool. It's not too soon.

8:38

There's not so much literature

8:42

around the earliest, from what I

8:42

read, not that I know all of the

8:45

literature around like infants

8:45

and toddlers, that it really

8:49

gets a little more like concrete

8:49

that you can actually tap into

8:52

the money skills or the

8:52

financial skills or knowledge

8:56

once they are kind of in that

8:56

preschool age. And so I really

8:58

am like, once they actually

8:58

understand what numbers are.

9:02

Right? Like this is one and it

9:02

represents this many and this is

9:06

two and it represents this many,

9:06

right? Like if I'm holding my

9:09

fingers up for that, they don't

9:09

really have that skill until

9:12

preschool which makes sense.

9:12

That's kind of when some of

9:14

these things start but choice

9:14

even. Yeah, yeah, choice is a

9:18

financial concept. Oh, of course

9:18

it is.

9:21

Yeah, yeah,

9:21

risk is another one. But you

9:24

know, and we might visit that

9:24

probably somewhere along the

9:28

way.

9:29

Yes. So okay,

9:29

tell us about these three

9:32

building blocks of financial

9:32

capability. All kinds of

9:34

concepts we teach, incorporate,

9:34

but tell us about these three

9:37

building blocks of financial capability.

9:39

Okay, and these building blocks are not new. We've talked about some of

9:41

them already in previous

9:44

episodes, but the first one is

9:44

executive function. So executive

9:47

function are those behaviors

9:47

supportive of financial

9:50

well-being and they're personal

9:50

attributes that relate to, I

9:55

guess, a suite of mental

9:55

operations, so it involves like

9:58

self-control, planning, focus.

9:58

So if we build a strong

10:04

executive function in our child,

10:04

if we help them develop that,

10:07

then they can plan easier. They

10:07

can focus their attention,

10:11

remember details, and then

10:11

juggle multiple tasks. So, and

10:16

that will hopefully lead to

10:16

healthier or should lead to

10:18

healthier financial outcomes.

10:22

Yes. Okay. So

10:22

as I think about these three

10:24

building blocks of financial

10:24

capability and executive

10:27

function, I'm like, okay, like

10:27

creating a budget, that would be

10:31

executive function, right? That

10:31

planning, but also like living

10:35

within the budget you actually

10:35

set, right? Like if we carry it

10:38

out, that's an executive

10:38

function, that ability to

10:41

control impulse, and which I

10:41

shared before, this is an area I

10:45

maybe have for growth. I'm not

10:45

going to self-depreciate so much

10:48

that I'm like, I'm doing bad.

10:48

No, this is an area where I

10:52

could maybe do some growth. And

10:52

it's a thing that I have some

10:58

of, right? I have some executive

10:58

function, and I have some areas

11:01

for growth, as will many of our

11:01

kids. Right?

11:05

Oh, yeah. I

11:05

think you're underselling your

11:07

skills again, Mackenzie.

11:08

I find it

11:08

hard to positive self talk.

11:13

I know that you keep lists. I know that you're organized. That means

11:15

you're a planner. I know that

11:19

you can focus your attention,

11:19

keep an eye out for detail, you

11:23

know, and juggle multiple tasks

11:23

as a parent.

11:26

That's true.

11:26

I do that. Okay. Executive

11:29

function is one.

11:30

So

11:30

executive function is one, and

11:32

then financial habits and norms.

11:32

So these are values. And we

11:36

talked about values, standards,

11:36

routine practices, around money.

11:41

So these are the habits and

11:41

norms that help people just kind

11:45

of get through their day to day

11:45

financial lives. Okay. So yes,

11:49

like norms of saving, paying

11:49

bills, earning income, these are

11:54

all kind of the basis of a habit.

11:56

Yes. Well,

11:56

that makes sense, right? Yeah.

11:59

Yeah, I will say a habit is basically things you do regularly. But the habit has the

12:01

beauty of, it hopefully doesn't

12:05

require a lot of thought, right?

12:05

That's the thing about a habit,

12:08

you just kind of do it. But so

12:08

thinking about that for our kids

12:11

and money in the future, like,

12:11

yes, we pay bills on time. We

12:15

purchase the things that we need

12:15

for our family. Those kinds of

12:19

things, okay, they understand

12:19

you have financial habits and

12:24

norms that are like you

12:24

understand them and they're

12:27

positive habits.

12:28

Right. So

12:28

your child might see, okay, when

12:31

the mail comes in and it's a

12:31

bill, if you do get paper bills

12:34

still, you know, you do get some

12:34

for like the utilities possibly,

12:37

or who knows, waste management?

12:37

I just got one. So do you take

12:42

that bill and you throw it in a

12:42

pile, like that's a habit,

12:45

right? Versus I opened it up

12:45

immediately, and I sit down at

12:49

the computer and I make an

12:49

electronic payment, or I sit

12:51

down and write a check or

12:51

whatever form you use. But

12:54

that's a habit, right? And the

12:54

norm is that we pay, we're going

12:58

to pay that on time.

13:01

Okay, I have a thought, but I want to hold it. I'm gonna hold this in my

13:02

head until you talk about the

13:05

third building block. So, this

13:05

third one is financial knowledge

13:08

and decision making skills.

13:10

Sure. So

13:10

these skills and knowledge are

13:15

exhibited by actions like

13:15

financial planning, research. We

13:19

talked about research and being able to find reliable information, use it, process it,

13:21

and then intentional decisions.

13:25

Okay. And so yeah, these are,

13:25

again, our know-how is really

13:32

more important than that factual

13:32

base knowledge. It's the

13:35

know-how, the skills, the

13:35

process. And with the decision

13:38

making skills, I think we had in

13:38

a previous conversation that we

13:42

did talk about procrastination,

13:42

choice overload, and how we

13:46

struggle as adults. And so

13:46

parents are listening, you know,

13:49

keep in mind that our youngsters

13:49

that we're teaching, their

13:53

decision making, they have no

13:53

practice making decisions. So we

13:56

need patience, so we need to

13:56

give them time. Yeah, that's

14:00

hard. And realize that they're

14:00

going to be deciding at

14:02

different rates than we are.

14:04

Yeah, we have a lot of practice of like, whether I should buy this or

14:06

that. I can make that choice pretty quickly because I make

14:08

that choice all the time. A

14:10

child who is spending their

14:10

allowance or who is using money

14:14

they got for a gift, they don't

14:14

have a lot of experience making

14:17

those kinds of decisions.

14:19

And yeah, that's a tougher choice because they have very, you know, they

14:20

don't see necessarily that

14:23

there's more income coming in or

14:23

more earnings coming in. You

14:27

know, maybe it was a one time

14:27

job babysitting for somebody or

14:31

mowing a lawn and you know,

14:31

they're just filling in for

14:34

somebody, let's put it that way.

14:34

And so we're ideally, you know,

14:38

we know that there's another

14:38

paycheck, if we're fortunate to

14:41

have a steady job.

14:44

Oh,

14:44

interesting. Okay, so these

14:46

three building blocks of

14:46

financial capability include

14:50

executive functioning, right,

14:50

these cognitive skills in our

14:53

brain, financial habits and

14:53

norms, that we have those,

14:57

hopefully they're positive, and

14:57

then our knowledge, our

14:59

know-how, decsion making skills.

14:59

Okay, so the thing that just was

15:04

like clicking. I was like, oh my

15:04

gosh, aha, aha, in my brain as

15:08

we were walking through this. So

15:08

obviously, parenting education,

15:12

I care a lot about parents and

15:12

helping them learning the things

15:15

they want to know and

15:15

trustworthy information. And

15:19

sometimes people say things to

15:19

me when they know that parenting

15:22

is my research interest of like,

15:22

you know, parenting has been

15:25

going on forever, honestly,

15:25

nothing really changes, right,

15:28

from generation to generation.

15:28

And I tend to believe very

15:31

differently than that. I think

15:31

there are a lot of things that

15:33

change in society and culture

15:33

and there's a lot of things. And

15:38

very specific to this topic, you

15:38

talking about paperless bills.

15:44

That is a huge change as we

15:44

think about financial parenting.

15:49

You know, I can picture my mom

15:49

sitting down with bills and her

15:53

79 cent notebook, right? I can

15:53

picture those processes as

15:57

things I could observe when I

15:57

was a kid, that my kids will not

16:03

observe us doing because we

16:03

don't do paper bills.

16:08

That's a

16:08

double whammy. Yes.

16:11

I didn't

16:11

think about how that small

16:16

change changes how we parent,

16:16

right. But even the implicit,

16:21

right, the modeling that

16:21

happens, our kids won't see that

16:24

unless we go out of our way to

16:24

make sure they see that. And I

16:29

just believe there's a lot of

16:29

things that change from

16:32

parenting generation to

16:32

generation, but that one

16:34

thinking about it in the context

16:34

of like, financial parenting,

16:38

that is different. There's a

16:38

different set of opportunities

16:43

and challenges when you're

16:43

parenting our kids in this day

16:47

and age to teach them about this

16:47

stuff.

16:49

Yeah, the

16:49

modeling isn't happening weekly

16:52

or monthly, because you set up

16:52

your bill pay once and then and

16:55

then you might monitor it on

16:55

your laptop and kids are not

16:59

engaged as part of that process.

16:59

So you're absolutely right.

17:02

That's when I say double whammy.

17:02

It's like, well, you know, we

17:04

are modeling. If we're implicit

17:04

parents, you know, financial

17:08

parents, then we hope they're

17:08

picking up on it. But if it's

17:11

not actually visible, then yes.

17:14

That

17:14

visibility piece of it. The

17:17

visibility of it of like, this

17:17

is a physical thing that comes

17:20

in the mail that I have to open,

17:20

that I might set on the counter,

17:23

that my kids will see me right,

17:23

opening and talking about it, or

17:26

like prompting a conversation

17:26

between me and my co-parent or

17:29

my partner about this bill and

17:29

how it might be more than I

17:32

expected or that happened. Like

17:32

that process looks different in

17:38

a more paperless world.

17:39

Oh yeah,

17:39

even the discussions between

17:42

partners. I mean, I know like,

17:42

we have text alerts that come in

17:46

on credit card charges, you

17:46

know, which my husband gets, my

17:50

daughter gets it too, because

17:50

she has a card on it. And you

17:53

know, if there's a foul charge,

17:53

or like a question about a

17:56

charge, I get a text, you know,

17:56

from my husband like, hey, were

18:01

you supposed to get charged

18:01

twice, you know. And so my

18:03

daughter doesn't see that text

18:03

to me. Right. So again, that

18:07

conversation is absent, where it

18:07

might have been there before.

18:11

Yeah. I like that you're picking

18:11

up on that.

18:14

I'm like my brain, my mind.

18:16

That was a good one.

18:17

Oh, yeah.

18:17

Okay, so anyway, we're talking

18:21

about financial capability. But

18:21

you know, as we think about

18:24

this, the whole point of this

18:24

episode, well, kind of the

18:26

season, like how to teach your

18:26

kids about money? How do we talk

18:29

about it? And it's like, okay,

18:29

it might look different for us

18:32

than it looked for our parents

18:32

because of some of these

18:34

technology pieces and culture,

18:34

etc, etc. So let's dig into this

18:39

idea of where, we love talking

18:39

about development. And don't

18:43

forget, we have a whole podcast

18:43

season, season five, where we

18:46

have an episode for each age

18:46

group. So we actually have a

18:48

separate episode, one for school

18:48

agers, one for preschoolers,

18:51

that you can go back and listen

18:51

to those to learn all about

18:53

where your child's at

18:53

developmentally, kind of across

18:56

the domains. But for today,

18:56

thinking about money and

18:59

finances, let's talk about the

18:59

milestones. Where our kids at?

19:04

And so let's start with these

19:04

preschoolers. We define it for

19:07

our purposes today by three to

19:07

five year olds. What are some of

19:10

the financial milestones like

19:10

the learning and cognition, like

19:14

what's happening with preschoolers and money?

19:16

Well, they're not going to be developing really sophisticated

19:16

knowledge at this age, that they're continually developing,

19:18

and they're building on what they learn as they develop.

19:19

Right? Which we know. So it's

19:25

continual, but in terms of

19:25

finances, just learning the

19:35

concept of money is a big one,

19:35

right? So really, like being

19:43

able to delay gratification,

19:43

maybe not so much developing but

19:48

it's maybe starting to emerge.

19:48

That's really more starting a

19:52

little bit later, but

19:52

consequences, being able to

19:58

demonstrate self-regulation and

19:58

persistence. That's something

20:02

that you can see in three to

20:02

five year olds, right? A little

20:05

bit, like the whole marshmallow

20:05

experiment.

20:07

Right, if we

20:07

give them one, can they wait?

20:09

Like, I'll give you two

20:09

marshmallows if you don't eat

20:12

this, but then I'm gonna leave you unattended to see if you eat it.

20:14

See? Yeah,

20:14

we did. Exactly, exactly. So I

20:17

think that's a good example of

20:17

like, oh can they resist the

20:20

temptation? And then the

20:20

consequences, right, that they

20:22

get a second or third

20:22

marshmallow, right, if they can,

20:26

or the second marshmallow

20:26

rather. Yeah. So it's the idea

20:30

of kids having possessions. So

20:30

things that are mine, right? So

20:35

in preschools, I think, setting

20:35

up routines and strategies for

20:41

kids to share, right? So the

20:41

idea of sharing, borrowing. If

20:46

you borrow something, you have

20:46

to return it. So right. If you

20:48

borrow a toy from the shelf, you

20:48

have to return it. If you borrow

20:50

a book, you need to return it.

20:50

Yeah.

20:55

So yeah, just

20:55

like a very simplified version

20:58

of as adults, what we know as

20:58

complex, or what feels like

21:01

complex terms. They're getting

21:01

the really simplified version of

21:04

that in preschool.

21:06

Yeah, so

21:06

counting, right? Being able to

21:11

recognize what a penny is.

21:13

That actually, that came up in my house this weekend. My daughter

21:15

shared coins, she got change

21:20

when she purchased something.

21:20

She gave my son, it was nine

21:23

cents. That was a big deal. It

21:23

was nine cents. And he was upset

21:27

because he only wanted the brown

21:27

ones. That right, that ability

21:32

to compare and contrast is a

21:32

preschool age skill. Like he

21:36

knew these are different. I

21:36

liked these ones better. He

21:39

hadn't associated the monetary

21:39

value with it. Right. But like,

21:42

the brown ones, I want the brown

21:42

ones for me, and so there's

21:46

these really simple versions of

21:46

skills that come into play in

21:50

preschool.

21:51

Yeah, that's a great example. Yeah. Great example. So as he develops

21:52

a little bit, he's going to

21:55

realize that a penny is worth

21:55

one and then a nickel is worth

21:58

five, right? And then maybe

21:58

understand the equivalence

22:01

between them that if I have five

22:01

of these brown ones, they equal

22:05

the the silver one, the big one,

22:05

the big one. Yeah, not the

22:11

really big one, the sort of big

22:11

one.

22:13

Yes, well,

22:13

and I just feel like so many of

22:17

those little cognitive things

22:17

are just building this

22:21

foundation, right? Like, we need

22:21

to be able to count to

22:24

understand investing, right? You

22:24

need to be able to understand

22:28

just those really simple compare

22:28

and contrast for comparison

22:32

shopping, right? Like a lot of

22:32

these adult skills that we hope

22:35

our kids get to to be

22:35

financially capable, that

22:38

foundation being laid. But it

22:38

was also interesting, there's

22:42

this chart from this report on

22:42

the Consumer Finance Protection

22:45

Bureau, my new favorite, in this

22:45

chart, they had laid it out by

22:51

age and across these three

22:51

building blocks. And so they in

22:54

their chart, they had a big

22:54

green checkmark on preschoolers

22:57

and executive function. Like,

22:57

this is the main area your

23:00

children will do growth in this

23:00

stage. So like, okay, that's

23:04

good to know. I can lean into

23:04

teaching about executive

23:07

function like you're talking

23:07

about. Yeah, it's action and

23:11

stuff like that.

23:12

Yeah. And hopefully, we'll post that as a resource for parents since we're

23:13

really lumping the two age

23:17

groups together so that they can

23:17

kind of get a deeper dive into

23:22

those but yeah.

23:22

So lots of

23:22

good stuff around preschoolers.

23:27

What about our school-agers? So

23:27

like, we're calling this our

23:30

six- to 12-year olds here. Tell

23:30

us about those kiddos and their

23:33

money milestones.

23:35

Okay, I've got to tell you about money milestones. But before I leave

23:36

preschoolers, and this applies

23:40

to both age groups, and we

23:40

talked about this, is this idea

23:44

of that they're exerting their

23:44

independence. And so money

23:49

represents some control that

23:49

they have over their lives and

23:52

that's kind of what kids are

23:52

looking for. Right? They want to

23:55

be able to make their own decisions. They don't want to be told what to do all the time

23:57

over everything from what time

24:00

to go to bed to how I spend my

24:00

money or right? So this idea of

24:04

autonomy and control is

24:04

something I think that's worth

24:07

mentioning to parents about

24:07

those age groups.

24:10

Yes, and what

24:10

independence and autonomy looks

24:14

like for preschooler might be

24:14

like, I have money, right? Like

24:17

this is mine. Right? We were talking about that's the concept for preschool like this belongs

24:19

to me. And what independence

24:22

might look like in the age group

24:22

we're moving into might look

24:25

more like, this is mine. I can

24:25

choose what to do with it. Right

24:29

like the power it can give me to

24:29

do things. Great point about

24:34

autonomy.

24:34

I'm sorry to derail us. But yeah, I wanted to mention that before I forgot

24:36

about it.

24:38

A good segue.

24:40

Middle school years, where preschoolers maybe aren't forming financial

24:42

habits and norms, middle

24:49

childhood, they can start

24:49

getting positive money attitudes

24:53

like understanding the value of

24:53

saving, planning, what happens

24:58

like consequences, the way they

24:58

spend like making a spending

25:01

plan. So you can talk with them

25:01

about why when how people spend

25:06

money. This idea of being able

25:06

to see a little bit into the

25:09

future is emerging, right, and

25:09

goal setting. So, yeah, those

25:14

are some basic concepts of

25:14

understanding spending,

25:17

planning, saving.

25:19

Well, and I remember, go ahead.

25:21

I was just going to say math and math skills are always all financial

25:22

decisions involve risk and math

25:26

skills numeracy.

25:28

Yes, the math

25:28

is a huge part of it. Well, even

25:30

like for school-agers, right, that's like addition, subtraction, multiplication, all

25:32

that stuff. That stuff but like

25:35

elementary school. So that's a

25:35

huge part of it. I think back to

25:39

when we did our podcast episode

25:39

on school-agers, the word that

25:42

just sticks in my brain for this

25:42

age group is mastery. Right?

25:46

Like, in preschoolers, you kind

25:46

of have preschoolers learning

25:50

how the world works, right?

25:50

There's a lot of why, there's a

25:52

lot of like, hmm? Questions,

25:52

really. But in school-agers,

25:59

they've kind of moved into, now

25:59

I understand how the world

26:01

works. Now I want to try it out,

26:01

like now I want to get good at

26:04

stuff. Now I want to, right, and

26:04

so this idea of mastery of like,

26:08

I'm trying something to

26:08

accomplish it or to make

26:11

progress. And that's kind of

26:11

what I hear in some of these

26:14

skills, too, is building habits,

26:14

getting to use money for things

26:19

that I want, and things like

26:19

that, that idea of mastery feels

26:23

like it ties in.

26:24

Oh, it

26:24

does. Yeah, I think so. That's a

26:27

really good, good point. And if

26:27

we can encourage that through,

26:34

you know, maybe an allowance,

26:34

maybe encouraging if they get

26:40

the offer to make a little extra

26:40

money in the neighborhood that

26:42

we let them do that. And this

26:42

might be, that would be an

26:46

Absolutely. Well, until the green check of opportunity. the three financial, the three

26:47

building blocks of financial capability. And preschoolers, it

26:48

was executive function that they

26:55

were like, that's their big

26:55

green checkmark. But in school

26:59

age, it's really this idea of

26:59

financial habits and norms. And

27:03

I even think of my nephew, like,

27:03

as a kid, I swear that kid had

27:09

more money than I did when he

27:09

was a child, because he was a

27:12

saver, right? And I started to

27:12

see his habits and norms of

27:18

that's who he's going to be with

27:18

money, right? He has kind of

27:20

this personality and attitude

27:20

related to money came out in

27:23

this school age. And I think my

27:23

daughter, like my daughter is

27:27

learning about money, excited

27:27

about money, interested in it.

27:30

And she's in the school age,

27:30

like early school age group, and

27:33

I am, I'm starting to see her

27:33

habits, like the things she

27:36

likes and some of her norms. So

27:36

that's really building and

27:40

getting established here, right?

27:41

Oh, yeah,

27:41

definitely. It sure is. So yeah,

27:44

their attitudes are being formed

27:44

and their ability to plan and

27:49

spend, but then there's a whole

27:49

set of concepts that they're

27:53

related to, they're related to

27:53

the habits and the norms. So

27:57

this financial knowledge is just

27:57

understanding the basic concept

28:01

of my parents work for money,

28:01

they earn money. And with

28:05

preschoolers, and I think middle

28:05

childhood, you can discuss the

28:09

concepts of needs and wants.

28:09

Goal setting is a big area,

28:13

right? So those short and long

28:13

term goals, at least for the

28:17

middle childhood years, are

28:17

things that you can work on with

28:21

your child as well so they can

28:21

save for goals. That habit,

28:25

right, and saving for goals. So

28:25

their financial habits and norms

28:29

are related to the skills and

28:29

and the knowledge that we have.

28:33

And I think

28:33

that it's nice to hear you

28:36

highlight these concepts like

28:36

yes, these are the types of

28:39

things I can be talking about,

28:39

right? These are the topics. If

28:43

I'm thinking about talking with

28:43

my kid about money for school

28:45

age, those are some of the topics to touch on. That's really great.

28:48

Yeah, yeah,

28:48

and goods and services, that

28:50

whole idea of exchange. I give

28:50

money at the store, my credit

28:55

card, my apple wallet, whatever

28:55

I'm using, you know, maybe

28:59

highlight that this is a form of

28:59

currency. I do have to pay for

29:03

this later. You know, you may

29:03

not see dollars and cents like

29:07

what you get for a holiday gift,

29:07

although kids are getting Amazon

29:10

gift cards and other plastic,

29:10

which is a much more abstract

29:15

concept than the bills and the

29:15

coins. Again, that generational

29:21

change.

29:22

Yes. Oh,

29:22

interesting. And that prompts me

29:26

to think about I recently had a

29:26

conversation about banks,

29:29

basically, with my school-ager

29:29

of, we were riding in the car,

29:33

had a question about how we,

29:33

it's because I forgot my money.

29:37

I forgot to bring, went to the

29:37

grocery store with my child and

29:41

forgot to bring a form of

29:41

payment. And so then I was

29:45

talking, well, yep, we had to

29:45

leave our food behind and I had

29:49

to come back, right? They took

29:49

my cart over to the side. And so

29:53

I had to run home and get my

29:53

card and then come back and she

29:56

was in the car with me and she

29:56

was asking about it. She goes

29:58

well, you don't even give them

29:58

money anyway. Because she was

30:02

like, she didn't understand that

30:02

I was putting a card in, and

30:06

that that was my form of

30:06

payment. And so we did, we

30:09

talked about like, basically the

30:09

store tells them that Mackenzie

30:14

bought this much. Mackenzie

30:14

spent this many dollars, she

30:17

chose stuff for this many

30:17

dollars. And then the store

30:20

tells my bank to take that money

30:20

from the money I gave the bank,

30:24

and then the store has it. I was

30:24

like, this is very abstract to

30:27

tell a six year old.

30:29

Yeah, but they can start to grasp the concept, I think, you know.

30:32

And so

30:32

important when, I mean for our

30:35

family, we're like a pretty

30:35

cashless family. And so it's

30:39

important again, if it's not

30:39

visible. I feel like that is my

30:44

whole takeaway from this episode

30:44

is finding ways to make it

30:46

visible to my kids. That's like,

30:46

what I'm gonna keep thinking

30:50

about.

30:51

Well, you

30:51

might have to get a cash

30:54

withdrawal from your bank

30:54

account. Yeah, have a week, or

30:59

you know, just have a week of

30:59

learning, you know, hey, we're

31:01

gonna be a cash family this week

31:01

so they can learn some concepts.

31:05

Yes, making

31:05

it visible. I love that. So we

31:08

have a lot of, I mean, we've

31:08

talked about so much good stuff

31:11

here already, what kids are

31:11

learning and working on in these

31:14

age groups. But we want to dig

31:14

into some strategy, right? One

31:18

of which we've talked about

31:18

every week, which is modeling,

31:21

right? Whether we mean to or

31:21

not, that's a form of educating

31:24

our kids, particularly our

31:24

preschoolers and our

31:27

school-agers who are soaking up

31:27

everything. But there's also an

31:30

idea of experiential learning,

31:30

which is about creating

31:34

experiences. And then a third

31:34

version of teaching being

31:37

instruction, like we're

31:37

explicitly teaching you

31:40

something. So I'll touch on

31:40

modeling, and then I'm going to

31:43

pass the baton to you to teach

31:43

us a little about experiential

31:46

learning. So modeling, of

31:46

course, thinking about the

31:49

choices we make, the behaviors

31:49

our kids observe, whether that

31:52

is paying bills, if again, if

31:52

it's visible. You know, choosing

31:58

our clothing, right, the

31:58

clothing that our family has,

32:01

how we go about making that

32:01

choice? Do we comparison shop?

32:04

All of those things that our

32:04

kids are observing about us. And

32:09

as Barb reminded us, which I

32:09

don't know why I'm always like,

32:13

oh, Barb, good reminder.

32:13

Whenever she says something, I'm

32:15

like, oh, of course, I need to

32:15

think of that. We're their first

32:18

teachers, as parents we're their

32:18

first teachers. And she said it

32:22

this way, and I loved this

32:22

phrase and actually have it word

32:25

for word, home is the first

32:25

place that kids see how money is

32:28

valued, saved, or spent over

32:28

time.

32:32

And that is powerful, isn't it?

32:33

Right, like

32:33

our home is the first place that

32:35

kids are going to get this. And

32:35

so finding those ways we are

32:39

modeling and giving attention to

32:39

it. So that's one of the

32:43

strategies related to financial

32:43

capability. But there are these

32:46

two, right? We're like, how do

32:46

you talk and teach about it?

32:49

Here are two, one is this idea

32:49

of experiential learning, right?

32:53

Yeah. So

32:53

for preschoolers, they learn by

32:57

doing, right. And they, you

32:57

know, they learn from your tone,

33:02

the words you use, maybe your

33:02

facial expressions, about how

33:05

you might feel like if you're

33:05

interacting with money, right?

33:08

So you're giving them a lesson

33:08

just that way. But as we get

33:13

older, so as we get older, with

33:13

school-aged kids, you know, we

33:18

can be more purposeful in our

33:18

discussions. Not that you can't

33:23

be with preschoolers, but there

33:23

might be a greater depth of

33:25

understanding. Let's put it that

33:25

way. Yeah, so with the

33:29

experiential learning, there's

33:29

so many opportunities in our

33:32

home, you know, with

33:32

preschoolers, and I say this

33:35

too, how many parents have a

33:35

grocery store set up either in

33:39

their basement or in the garage?

33:41

Oh, like a

33:41

dramatic play, pretend play kind

33:44

of setup that their kids are

33:44

playing restaurant or store?

33:48

Absolutely. Exactly.

33:50

They love that, don't they? So they wait on tables, and then they bring

33:52

you food, and then they give you

33:55

a check. And then you give them

33:55

some form of payment, you know,

33:57

like, especially with restaurants.

33:58

Even the fake

33:58

slice of cheese is payment.

34:01

That block

34:01

of wood that represents a piece

34:03

of cheesecake or something that

34:03

you're like, yeah, okay. Yeah.

34:05

Something, something that

34:05

visually represents?

34:07

So those types of opportunities,

34:07

and this is for the middle

34:10

years, I mean, both of them

34:10

really, in terms of just

34:14

engaging in, if you go on a

34:14

shopping trip together, maybe

34:17

give them a small amount of

34:17

money. Have them make a choice

34:18

Yeah, yeah. And then they divide

34:18

it up and you're like, wow, all

34:21

about something to buy at the

34:21

store, and they can hand it to

34:24

the cashier. They get the

34:24

choice, then you can reflect on

34:28

the choice. Were you happy with

34:28

your choice? You know, would you

34:32

do it differently? Were you

34:32

happy? Were you unhappy? Yes,

34:34

of our carrots go towards, that

34:34

much goes towards housing and

34:35

you know, but the idea of just

34:35

giving them money whenever they

34:39

ask for it or want something and

34:39

that's something I know parents

34:43

probably can really relate to is

34:43

that nagging. It's almost

34:46

sometimes you want to just leave

34:46

your child at home rather than

34:49

food. And so, you know, that's

34:49

just kind of minor ways that we

34:50

go shopping with them because

34:50

it's like, I'm going to spend so

34:54

much more money if I take them

34:54

with me because they're gonna

34:57

nag me for this stuff that the

34:57

marketers want them to buy. And

35:01

so that's, you know, one thing

35:01

that you do have to kind of have

35:05

can bring them in. But I know

35:05

kindergarteners and school-aged

35:05

a ready response for like, this

35:05

is our list. This is what we

35:09

shop from and we don't deviate

35:09

from the list. I think that's an

35:13

example that you've used before,

35:13

Mackenzie, and yeah, that maybe

35:16

sharing experiential learning.

35:16

You know, you could share your

35:20

kids understanding wants and

35:20

needs. You know, I held on to

35:20

major household budgets with

35:20

your, I would say with your

35:24

school aged children. So, you

35:24

know, we spend our money on

35:27

housing and transportation and

35:27

clothing and food. And you could

35:31

give them M&Ms and say, we spend

35:31

half of our M&Ms. Okay, maybe we

35:35

the piece of the kindergarten,

35:35

my kindergartener's little

35:35

don't use candy because of the health.

35:49

drawing of like, oh, air is a

35:49

need, love is a need. And then

36:04

she put iPod is a want so she

36:04

got it right. Yeah. They are

36:19

understanding that. Yeah.

36:26

And I think of the experiential learning with preschoolers. I love the

36:28

idea of pretend play.

36:32

Preschoolers are so into pretend

36:32

play so they can try out those

36:35

roles, they can try out those

36:35

processes. Love that as an idea,

36:39

because it's really just,

36:39

experiential learning is just

36:41

about creating opportunities

36:41

where they can try it out.

36:43

Right. And so I mean, I even

36:43

think of, you know, so often I

36:47

say, try it out with low

36:47

consequence. Right. And so

36:50

learning a hard lesson about

36:50

money. You know, you've talked

36:52

before about the school of hard

36:52

knocks, that's what people

36:55

learned about money, I made

36:55

mistakes, and then like,

36:57

literally paid for it. But

36:57

that's what experiential

37:01

learning is. And when we can do

37:01

this with our kids, create

37:04

opportunities for them to try it

37:04

out and experience whatever that

37:07

is, while the consequences are

37:07

fairly low. Okay, actually, I

37:11

have a story. I think I teased

37:11

it. You asked me a question in a

37:14

previous episode and I was like, wait, I don't want to tell you yet. I want to tell it later. I

37:16

had an experience recently with

37:20

my daughter who is school age.

37:20

She brought money to the store.

37:25

She had $2 and she wanted to buy

37:25

something. She comes up to pay.

37:29

It's $1.99. She brings it up.

37:29

And it's $2.13 because there's

37:34

tax. And I had mentioned to her

37:34

when she was choosing an item

37:40

that you know, okay, it's

37:40

actually the price tag is not

37:43

actually how much you pay.

37:43

There's tax. And so I had

37:47

explained a little bit about

37:47

that and she wanted to try it.

37:49

And so we went up to the counter

37:49

with the thing she wanted to

37:52

purchase and she rang it up. And

37:52

sure enough, right, it's too

37:55

much. And she looked at me and

37:55

she goes, you don't have any

37:58

coins you can give me? And I was

37:58

like heartbroken inside. I was

38:03

like, I just want to fix this

38:03

discomfort for you. You're so

38:05

sad. I mean, that was what my

38:05

heart said, but I was like, this

38:10

is an important moment for her.

38:10

Right. She's learning about

38:12

spending her own money. She's

38:12

learning about needs and wants.

38:17

And making, right, like this

38:17

decision making process. And

38:21

yeah, and the knowledge of sales

38:21

tax exists. And so I actually, I

38:26

literally didn't have coins. I

38:26

did have my card that time to

38:30

pay for my groceries. But she

38:30

had to put it back. She had to

38:33

choose something else because

38:33

she didn't have enough money.

38:36

And at first she was really

38:36

disappointed about it. And she

38:38

ended up finding something that

38:38

was cheaper and so she could get

38:40

two of them instead of one

38:40

bigger thing. But it was

38:45

actually a really great

38:45

opportunity for us. She had the

38:48

experience of the disappointment

38:48

and the decision making process.

38:52

But it also sparked some really

38:52

great conversations around what

38:55

is sales tax. We talked about

38:55

how it helps pay for schools and

38:58

roads and parks. You love to go

38:58

to the park. Tax is part of what

39:04

pays for them and that we all

39:04

share, like everybody who goes

39:06

to the store pays that sales tax

39:06

and that everybody contributes.

39:12

But that experience is really

39:12

what I'm trying to get at the

39:15

heart of. She got to try that

39:15

out. I'm trying to create those

39:20

opportunities.

39:21

I'm sorry, I have to interrupt. I mean, you're having a tax conversation

39:23

with your child and you're

39:26

saying you're not a strong

39:26

financial parent. I mean, by the

39:31

end of this season, we're gonna

39:31

have you in a really good place

39:34

in terms of how you feel.

39:36

I'm gonna feel so confident. I'm gonna know. But yeah, by the end of

39:37

the season, you'll finally

39:40

convince me.

39:41

Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely.

39:43

So yeah, and

39:43

that was almost like two parts

39:46

to the story, right? But the

39:46

experiential learning, she got

39:49

to try it out. So other ways we

39:49

curate these opportunities is

39:52

like, how they use their money

39:52

from the tooth fairy or a gift,

39:56

money they get for a gift or

39:56

even having a lemonade stand.

39:59

That's experiential learning

39:59

with money for our childhood,

40:03

like our kids in childhood. But

40:03

then the second piece of

40:06

actually teaching about taxes,

40:06

that was more on the explicit

40:10

instruction, right? Like I'm

40:10

actively teaching you a concept

40:12

or a skill. And so for

40:12

preschoolers, I even think of my

40:18

tip for talking with

40:18

preschoolers about money, or

40:20

honestly, teaching preschoolers

40:20

anything, make it about their

40:23

immediate concrete experience,

40:23

like what is in front of you.

40:27

And so one example I think of is

40:27

like price tags. Teaching my

40:31

son, who's a preschooler, this

40:31

little sign here has numbers,

40:36

what number is this? Okay,

40:36

that's how many dollars it

40:38

costs. If we want to bring that,

40:38

if we want to have that thing,

40:41

we are saying we will pay that

40:41

many dollars. But again, trying

40:46

to find ways to make it concrete

40:46

to their experience. And so one

40:50

of those strategies for

40:50

explicitly teaching money

40:52

concepts to preschoolers is

40:52

books. Yeah, books are a great

40:56

way to make something in their

40:56

current concrete experience. So

41:01

explicit instruction for

41:01

preschoolers, books and then

41:06

finding ways to make it

41:06

concrete. What about some

41:08

strategies for explicitly

41:08

teaching our school-agers?

41:12

Well,

41:12

talking to them about how income

41:17

comes into your house, right? So

41:17

they can understand jobs, and

41:23

that there are different types

41:23

of jobs that we can have to make

41:26

money. And you know, just a

41:26

conversation, whether it's from

41:29

a book where we're reading about

41:29

firefighters or construction

41:33

workers, or whatever it might

41:33

be. You know, there's some books

41:36

that have all the different

41:36

types of occupations, having a

41:38

discussion about what they want

41:38

to be. And then how there's a

41:42

different set of skills that are required for all the different types of jobs. So how does

41:44

income come into our house would

41:47

be one discussion for explicit

41:47

instruction. Taking them to work

41:54

with you or your partner, or if

41:54

you have a grandparent, you

41:58

know, that could show them the

41:58

workplace. And give them

42:03

exposure that way, and then talk

42:03

about this is how I spend my

42:06

time and I have to work this

42:06

many hours. So just teaching

42:09

them the idea of earning income,

42:09

right. And, you know, explicit

42:15

instruction could be if you

42:15

encourage them to take a job in

42:19

the neighborhood, right? They

42:19

make their own earnings, and so

42:23

that I have the power of earning

42:23

money, and yes, and the choices

42:28

and talking to them about that.

42:28

And what are we going to do with

42:30

it? Where are we going to put

42:30

it? Like in a bank? Are we gonna

42:33

put out a piggy bank? Yeah, so

42:33

how we're storing money through

42:39

earnings that we make, you know,

42:39

in the neighborhood.

42:42

That was twofold, right? They get the experience of earning the money

42:44

and having the money. So that's

42:47

experiential learning. But it's

42:47

also explicit, because we're

42:50

talking about the concepts that

42:50

go into it. Right? Yeah. Yeah,

42:53

they often go hand in hand, and

42:53

typically, somewhere in there

42:56

some modeling strategies there.

43:00

Yeah, yeah,

43:00

exactly. And if they do make

43:03

some earnings, having that discussion about what's the goal, what do you think is a

43:05

reasonable goal for this money?

43:08

And what's, you know, how do you

43:08

want to spend it? And what

43:11

happens if you're not happy with

43:11

what you purchase? So all of a

43:13

sudden, teaching them some

43:13

consumer skills. I think I

43:16

mentioned this in a previous

43:16

episode, you know, I bought

43:18

something and it was, you know,

43:18

my daughter bought something and

43:21

she wasn't happy with the

43:21

quality of it, or it was

43:23

defective. But there's been a

43:23

couple of occasions. And so all

43:26

of a sudden, now that she's

43:26

older than school age, it's an

43:30

opportunity to talk about those

43:30

consumer skills, as well.

43:33

And even I think of taking my child to the customer service desk with me.

43:35

Yeah. Listening to how I have

43:39

those conversations and talking

43:39

with them. I was bringing this

43:42

back because of blank. Right?

43:42

And hopefully modeling positive

43:48

interpersonal communication

43:48

skills there. But yeah, I'm

43:52

getting to teach those things.

43:53

Sure. And,

43:53

you know, maybe you have them

43:56

cut coupons for you, you know,

43:56

and then you have a discussion

43:59

very explicitly, like, okay,

43:59

this is what we buy every week

44:02

in our household, Here's a coupon for it. And I'm gonna actually, instead of it being

44:03

$1, it's gonna be 80 cents because of this piece of paper

44:04

or because it's not visible, it's on your app, right, on your

44:06

grocery store app if you use one

44:13

and you can show it to them.

44:15

Oh, yeah. Oh, that's awesome.

44:17

There's so

44:17

many opportunities. Yeah, the

44:19

issue is that they take time.

44:19

And have I mentioned this, you

44:23

know, already earlier in this

44:23

podcast that you know, parents,

44:26

we want to just get it done. And

44:26

we don't want to take the time

44:29

for those lessons. And we're not

44:29

blaming parents. I'm guilty of

44:33

it. But it'll pay off.

44:36

It is, it's

44:36

more work. It is more work than

44:39

just, right? I can go to the

44:39

store by myself and just zip

44:41

around. I mean, I've literally

44:41

worn my headphones to the

44:43

grocery store by myself, right?

44:43

This luxurious experience, like

44:46

I'm all alone, quit bothering

44:46

me, getting the stuff I need,

44:51

and I'm listening to a podcast

44:51

or music I like. That is less

44:55

work than bringing my child with

44:55

me and managing their behavior

44:58

and teaching these concepts and

44:58

giving them opportunities to try

45:02

stuff out or look at price tags.

45:02

That takes more energy and

45:05

attention and we don't always

45:05

have it. And that's okay to not

45:08

always have it. In a previous

45:08

episode, we can show up

45:12

imperfectly. Right, we're gonna

45:12

show up imperfectly and still

45:17

try it.

45:18

Right. And

45:18

it's an ongoing process.

45:21

Yes. Yeah.

45:22

We're still learning. You're still learning. I'm still learning. You know,

45:24

it's not done. It's never done.

45:28

We're always

45:28

just trying it out. We're really

45:30

just trying it out. Okay, so

45:30

we've walked through these three

45:36

building blocks of financial

45:36

capability. And we've got lots

45:39

of great strategies for our

45:39

preschoolers and the our school

45:42

age kiddos. And now this brings

45:42

us to another Stop. Breathe.

45:46

Talk. space, where our producer

45:46

is going to ask us an off the

45:49

cuff question. I don't know what

45:49

she's got for us talking all

45:52

about kids today. A little too

45:52

energized and intrigued to ask

45:56

us something hard.

45:59

Do I have a tell?

46:02

Your facial

46:02

expression gives me hints. I

46:04

don't know.

46:04

Woah, boy.

46:05

It was her eyebrows. The way she raised them.

46:09

Um, yeah. So.

46:09

And this is a question that

46:13

Mackenzie has heard in previous

46:13

previous seasons. Okay. But

46:19

we're focused on this topic,

46:19

right, we're talking about kids

46:22

and money. And, of course, Barb

46:22

helped me come up with it, too.

46:27

But let's imagine we're at the

46:27

point where our kid is say,

46:35

honestly, could be any age, but

46:35

say, since we're talking to

46:39

middle childhood, say they're

46:39

like a fourth or fifth grader.

46:43

And we realize, we have not

46:43

talked about money. Like, we go

46:50

to the store. We buy things and

46:50

I swipe my card, like you were

46:55

talking about. When they have

46:55

activities, I just go ahead and,

47:00

you know, write a check or send

47:00

the money with them, but don't

47:04

really talk about it. And I've

47:04

hit this point where I've

47:09

listened to this podcast and go,

47:09

wait a minute, I haven't done

47:13

any of that. So the question is,

47:13

if we don't model those things,

47:20

or we haven't talked about what

47:20

we're doing with our money, how

47:25

can we, and Mackenzie you're

47:25

gonna know the word I'm gonna

47:27

use, how can we recover? How can

47:27

we catch up? Is it too late to

47:33

have those conversations but if

47:33

we're talking to our fourth, or

47:37

fifth grader, how can we

47:37

recover?

47:44

I have an answer. But I don't have to go first.

47:48

Well, I mean, I would dare say that you think that you haven't taught

47:50

them anything, right? You're

47:54

saying, you know, the assumption

47:54

is what you're coming with this

47:56

question is like, I'm at the

47:56

stage, my child is in fourth or

48:00

fifth grade and we haven't had

48:00

any discussions. Well, I would

48:05

argue that I bet I could go back

48:05

through the last 10 years of

48:09

your child's life and pinpoint

48:09

many lessons that you gave your

48:13

child that you were not aware of

48:13

and that may not have felt

48:19

explicitly like financial

48:19

lessons. But you really have

48:22

engaged in in much more than you

48:22

know, and I think that

48:25

Mackenzie, the other Mackenzie,

48:25

has been definitely a

48:28

testimonial to that, that the

48:28

more we talk about it, the more

48:32

there's emerging from it because

48:32

she's putting a magnifying glass

48:36

on her behavior because of this

48:36

episode or this season, not this

48:39

episode. But because of this

48:39

season, she's uncovering all

48:42

sorts of financial parenting

48:42

that she's doing that she's

48:44

like, wow, okay, man, okay, I'm

48:44

doing a lot more than I thought.

48:48

And so to get started, I mean,

48:48

but if you want to be more

48:53

explicit and purposeful, I would

48:53

argue there are opportunities

48:56

for that. And so I mean, just

48:56

some of the concepts that we've

49:01

talked about that you could just

49:01

start bringing your child into

49:05

decisions you're making. You can

49:05

have a family meeting where you

49:10

start maybe talking about, hey,

49:10

we have a little bit of extra,

49:15

you know, we have $200 extra

49:15

this year, you know, or this

49:19

month or this quarter. What do

49:19

we want to do with it as a

49:22

family? And where did this money

49:22

come from? Why do I have extra

49:27

money? So, you know, because of

49:27

maybe cutting out an expense or

49:32

whatever it might be? So yeah, I

49:32

would argue that it's definitely

49:36

never too late to start. And you

49:36

just have to be more purposeful

49:40

about it. And yeah, and having

49:40

that conversation and ask them

49:46

what questions do they have? Oh,

49:46

start with like, you know, we

49:51

haven't really talked that much

49:51

about money. You see me doing

49:54

stuff. You see me online

49:54

shopping. We go to the grocery

49:56

store together, but we never

49:56

really talk about money. Do you

49:59

have any questions about, you

49:59

know, anything to do with money?

50:02

Yeah. And if I'm comfortable

50:02

answering it, I will. If I'm

50:06

not, I'll tell you why I'm not.

50:09

Oh, let's find

50:09

the answer. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

50:13

And I think that's also establishing this kind of open communication we

50:15

hope our kids have with us later

50:19

related to money and related to

50:19

other things. It's like, yeah,

50:22

you can ask. Yeah. Also, one

50:22

thing, you know, I'm big on

50:29

repair and recover, and, you

50:29

know, so I do think saying to

50:33

your child, I think it's okay to have that conversation with your child of, I've kind of left you

50:35

out of this. You know, maybe it

50:42

would have been good if I had been teaching you more stuff. Like, let's get started. You

50:43

know, let's explore some of

50:46

this. And so I think it's okay

50:46

to have that conversation and

50:49

tell them from here on out, I'd

50:49

like to do this more. It's okay

50:53

to just draw your attention,

50:53

like, I could have done this

50:55

better. And so I think that's

50:55

all right to own that. And then

51:01

one of the things I think of I'm

51:01

like, choose whichever of those

51:04

three strategies we just talked

51:04

about of modeling, or

51:07

experiential learning, or

51:07

explicit teaching. Choose one

51:11

that you feel like maybe if you

51:11

feel like, you're brand new to

51:15

it, choose whatever feels most

51:15

achievable to you. Like, okay,

51:20

having these conversations

51:20

intimidates me, but I could help

51:23

them with a lemonade stand,

51:23

right? Going all the way from

51:27

zero to lemonade stand feels

51:27

like a big leap. But I can work

51:30

on making what I'm doing with

51:30

money more visible to my child,

51:33

right? Choose whatever one you

51:33

feel like you have the most

51:36

natural strengths and

51:36

personality for, and lean into

51:40

it. Right? You don't have to go,

51:40

we're showing up imperfectly. We

51:43

don't have to go from zero to

51:43

our child is now a financial

51:47

wizard, you know. So show up in

51:47

a small increment that you feel

51:53

is achievable to you. And then

51:53

build from there is really where

51:57

I'd say. It's not too late to

51:57

start.

51:59

Okay, so I'm

51:59

also going to answer my own

52:02

question just briefly, because I

52:02

thought of something as you were

52:05

talking. Fourth and fifth grade

52:05

is about the time that you also

52:09

might be starting 4-H, and that

52:09

would also be a good time to

52:15

say, oh, you know, we didn't

52:15

talk about this. But this

52:18

project requires us to talk

52:18

about how much we spent on the

52:23

fabric that we bought. And yes,

52:23

the consumer management side of

52:27

it. So that's a shout out to

52:27

Barb of the 4-H side of things.

52:31

Yes.

52:32

Yeah, a great

52:32

opportunity. It's almost like

52:34

that's intentional that 4-H

52:34

starts at this developmental

52:38

stage where they're learning to

52:38

do all these things. That's

52:41

great.

52:42

Yeah,

52:42

that's a good way to answer your

52:45

own question. And I was gonna

52:45

bring up the same point about

52:48

the interaction. You may feel

52:48

like as a parent, oh, I haven't

52:51

gotten started with my child,

52:51

but they've gotten started. So I

52:55

think asking them about what

52:55

they know about money, how

52:59

they're interacting with money.

52:59

So whether it's 4-H, Girl

53:02

Scouts, Boy Scouts, school

53:02

fundraisers, coming home and

53:06

asking for money for a field

53:06

trip, paying a library fine. I

53:11

mean, we interact with the

53:11

economy all the time, you know,

53:15

whether or not we have a wallet

53:15

in our pocket or not. And

53:18

whether or not we're spending

53:18

and so that might be a good

53:21

conversation opener, too. What

53:21

do you know about money? Where

53:24

have you learned about it? What

53:24

is the school teaching you?

53:28

Because the mandate in Iowa now

53:28

is that there has to be some

53:32

instruction around financial

53:32

literacy and the first graduates

53:35

were in 2021-2022. Yeah, so they

53:35

are learning about money, even

53:41

if you fall down on the job as a parent.

53:43

Really, you

53:43

haven't. You've probably been

53:46

talking about it.

53:48

You have not.

53:49

I'll say it

53:49

though, you said library fine

53:52

and I'm like, oh, that's that

53:52

executive function piece. This

53:56

is where I need growth and I'm thinking right now that I probably have some library books.

53:57

Do you have a fine to pay?

54:00

I can teach the concept of borrowing and returning.

54:03

Yeah, and

54:03

the consequence, the

54:07

consequence, and then it's like,

54:07

well, the taxing, right? The tax

54:11

for our library service, but

54:11

then it's like a fine. I kind of

54:14

look at it like, well, the

54:14

library needs my $2. But I won't

54:18

tell my child that. That's a

54:18

good story, a good way to spend

54:23

my money. But anyway.

54:25

Would that

54:25

fall under a logical or natural,

54:29

probably a logical consequence.

54:31

Yeah, they

54:31

have implemented a logical

54:34

consequence of the library that

54:34

if we don't return things in the

54:37

time period we agreed to that we

54:37

have to pay a fine. That would

54:41

be a logical consequence that I

54:41

will need to deal with in the

54:46

very near future.

54:48

Logical consequences.

54:50

My logical

54:50

consequence for my lack of

54:52

planning on the executive

54:52

function to return the library

54:55

book.

54:56

I understand.

54:58

All right,

54:58

well, I will let you go. Thank

55:01

you.

55:01

Yeah. Thank you. Good question.

55:02

Yes, it was.

55:02

Digging into this idea of

55:04

financial capability today.

55:04

These three building blocks,

55:05

In our next

55:05

episode, we're gonna talk about

55:07

you're going to hear more about

55:07

them next week. But

55:10

understanding how do we have

55:10

these conversations with our

55:14

kids, our preschoolers, our

55:14

school-agers. Suzanne gave us a

55:17

great list of some of the

55:17

concepts that we teach at each

55:21

age, you know, and then also

55:21

understanding which of the

55:24

building blocks at which stage

55:24

they're really working on

55:27

building. So we know for

55:27

preschoolers, that executive

55:30

functioning is really coming in,

55:30

and then for our school-agers

55:34

really some of those financial

55:34

habits and norms. So you've got

55:38

to come back next week to see

55:38

what age group. Spoiler because

55:41

Suzanne's about to tell you so,

55:41

yeah, who we talk about next week.

55:47

teens and money.

55:49

Yeah, there's

55:49

some unique opportunities for

55:52

these teens, right?

55:54

Oh, yeah.

55:54

They are really interfacing with

55:57

the economy and with peer

55:57

pressure and wanting to belong

56:02

and fit in, which usually has a

56:02

price tag next to it.

56:06

Yes. So yeah,

56:06

all of that and more in next

56:10

week's podcast episode. But for

56:10

today, thanks for joining us on

56:14

the Science of Parenting

56:14

podcast. If you want to learn

56:17

more about these developmental

56:17

milestones and your child's

56:21

ability at each age group, you

56:21

can check out, like I said, that

56:24

podcast season on season five,

56:24

but you can also look on our

56:29

website. Our website has these

56:29

categories of different age

56:32

groups where you can explore

56:32

lots of stuff related to their

56:35

development and their age. So

56:35

check out our website at

56:39

scienceofparenting.org. Very

56:39

specific pages tailored with

56:43

content for your kids.

56:45

Cool, that is a great resource, Mackenzie, and so come along with us as we

56:47

tackle ups and downs, the ins

56:50

and outs, and the research and

56:50

reality about the Science of

56:53

Parenting.

56:54

The Science of

56:54

Parenting is hosted by Mackenzie

56:57

Johnson, produced by Mackenzie

56:57

DeJong, with research and

57:00

writing by Barbara Dunn Swanson.

57:00

Send in questions and comments

57:03

to [email protected] and

57:03

connect with us on Facebook and

57:09

Twitter. This institution is an

57:09

equal opportunity provider. For

57:13

the full non-discrimination

57:13

statement or accommodation

57:15

inquiries go to

57:15

www.extension.iastate.edu/diversity/ext.