0:09

Hey, welcome to The Science of Parenting podcast, where we connect you

0:11

with research based information

0:15

that fits your family. We'll

0:15

talk about the realities of

0:18

being a parent and how research

0:18

can help guide our parenting

0:20

decisions. I'm Mackenzie

0:20

Johnson, parent of two littles

0:23

with their own quirks. And I'm a

0:23

parenting educator.

0:26

And I'm Lori

0:26

Korthals, parent of three in two

0:30

different life stages. Two are

0:30

launched and one is in high

0:32

school and I am a parenting

0:32

educator. And today we are

0:37

continuing our conversation on

0:37

temperament and child

0:41

development milestones. We are

0:41

all the way up to adolescence,

0:45

preteens, teens, those ages.

0:48

How did we get here so fast?

0:50

I don't know. But

0:50

here we are. And this season,

0:54

what we've been doing is taking

0:54

a look at the different ages of

1:00

children and the stages and

1:00

milestones that they go through

1:03

kind of like we did in season

1:03

three, or in season five, right?

1:08

Yeah, and then taking season

1:08

three temperaments and mashing

1:14

it all together, and

1:14

specifically talking about what

1:18

do our temperament traits look

1:18

like in teens and preteens or in

1:24

infants and toddlers? So I've

1:24

enjoyed this season. I like

1:28

taking a deeper dive in both of

1:28

those areas at one time.

1:31

Oh, yeah, it

1:31

is. It's fun. And so we get to

1:34

look at these different temperament traits and how we see them play out with our

1:36

preteens and teens. So before we

1:40

dig into that, of course, I

1:40

gotta tell you the reminder that

1:44

parenting is a bi-directional

1:44

process, which every parenting

1:48

textbook has told me that I've

1:48

ever looked at, but in

1:51

particular, talking about Dr.

1:51

Diana Lange's book, Parenting

1:55

and Families in Diverse

1:55

Contexts, and so thinking about

1:59

that we influence our kids. But

1:59

we also know that our kids

2:03

influence us, their temperament,

2:03

their health status, their

2:07

gender, their birth order, all

2:07

of these different things that

2:09

are unique about each of our

2:09

children. They also influence

2:14

how we parent so it's not as

2:14

simple as I'm a parent, I do

2:18

unto you. Right? Not always.

2:18

That temperament is a big

2:24

influence, and that influences

2:24

us as parents.

2:29

It is absolutely

2:29

and so a reminder about what

2:32

temperament is, we talked about

2:32

this last time as it is our

2:37

factory settings, right? It's

2:37

that thing on our phone we do to

2:41

get everything back to ground

2:41

zero, right? It is our natural

2:46

tendencies, the way we can

2:46

predict our children's behavior

2:51

is based on what we gave them

2:51

genetically. I love that Mary

2:56

Sheedy Kurcinka talks about this

2:56

as a way to predict and provide

3:01

ourselves opportunities to learn

3:01

how to manage our responses and

3:08

our children's responses. So

3:08

yeah, genes are the template and

3:12

the environment and the people

3:12

around us kind of give us those

3:15

opportunities to learn and grow.

3:17

Yes, and I

3:17

will forever love that, like the

3:20

factory settings, word picture

3:20

of temperaments. It's there,

3:24

it's in the background, we build

3:24

on it, we write, we build

3:27

skills, the environment

3:27

influences us, right? If people

3:30

have trauma, all these different

3:30

layers that are on top of our

3:34

temperament, but it's there in

3:34

the background, both patterns of

3:38

behavior and interaction.

3:39

It is and really,

3:39

it's that idea of patterns and

3:42

predictability. Does that mean

3:42

that we just succumb to them?

3:47

No, we know the pattern, it's

3:47

predictable. So how can we learn

3:53

and grow and move on from it? So

3:53

yes, specifically this week. How

3:57

can we learn and grow as we look

3:57

at adolescents and teens?

4:03

What age

4:03

defines that for us? Right?

4:05

We've got to start there.

4:06

Yes, yes,

4:06

absolutely. I will almost get

4:08

right by that. But the age we're

4:08

looking at is going to be that

4:12

preteen all the way through

4:12

teenage years. So it's 12 to 17,

4:16

in there. And I know it's a big

4:16

age span. But that's how we're

4:21

going to do it because there's

4:21

so much conversation that we can

4:24

have during these years. That's

4:24

why we're bringing them all

4:27

together. But the CDC Milestone

4:27

Tracker is what we've been

4:31

utilizing as we look at

4:31

milestones and it talks about

4:36

this is a time period of a lot

4:36

of different physical, mental

4:40

and emotional as well as social

4:40

changes. So of course, we know

4:44

that human hormones and puberty

4:44

happen during this time. And so

4:50

on top of those physical and

4:50

mental and emotional changes, we

4:54

do have this hormonal change and

4:54

boys might grow facial hair.

5:00

Boys might grow pubic hair. Boys

5:00

voices will deepen.

5:04

Additionally, girls might grow

5:04

breasts and start their period.

5:08

And they might face some

5:08

different types of peer pressure

5:12

when it comes to how these

5:12

changes make them look.

5:15

Oh,

5:15

absolutely, and we know, in

5:17

addition, there's a lot of

5:17

physical changes that happen

5:19

here, as their bodies change

5:19

towards adulthood. But yeah, all

5:23

of the situations that brings

5:23

with it, because there's so much

5:26

physical change they can be

5:26

self-conscious about how they

5:29

appear to others and about how

5:29

they interact. So you're so

5:32

right, that peer pressure to do

5:32

things like drink alcohol, use

5:35

tobacco products, drugs, even

5:35

risky sexual behavior can really

5:40

be a part of the challenges that

5:40

teens face. And preteens to

5:44

other things, because of this

5:44

time period and development

5:48

they're in, they can be at risk

5:48

for things like depression, or

5:52

eating disorders, or you know

5:52

that family issues can be a part

5:57

of this, because as they strive

5:57

for their independence, it can

6:01

create conflict, a new kinds of

6:01

conflict for us between our

6:05

parents and our teens and

6:05

preteens. We do also know that,

6:09

right? The independence, the

6:09

making their own choices, what

6:12

clothing they wear, what music

6:12

they listen to, what food they

6:15

eat, all of those things, they

6:15

start to get a lot more

6:18

independence and want more

6:18

choice over the kind of things

6:21

that pertain to them personally.

6:21

They do. They're going to spend

6:27

more time with their friends.

6:27

And this is one of my favorite

6:30

things of research that I love

6:30

to reassure parents with, okay,

6:33

yes, teens, the importance of

6:33

their friends increases in their

6:38

life, that does not mean the

6:38

importance of their parents

6:41

decreases. Parents stay solid,

6:41

they've been a solid

6:45

relationship, hopefully, and

6:45

friends increase, but it doesn't

6:49

make parents any less important.

6:49

They still stay very important.

6:53

And kids really come to their

6:53

parents in those difficult

6:55

times, even through the teenage

6:55

years.

6:58

Absolutely, they

6:58

still do and all of that

7:00

independence is really a way

7:00

that they are working on that

7:04

idea of who am I? What is my

7:04

identity? And as we look at the

7:09

teen and adolescent years,

7:09

that's kind of that whole

7:13

milestone that they're really

7:13

working on. So that independence

7:18

tied into this independence will

7:18

help me create who I am as a

7:24

person. And I think that is so

7:24

important for parents to

7:29

remember. That idea is

7:29

constantly in the back of their

7:32

mind, who am I in this world?

7:32

And where do I want to be as a

7:37

person?

7:37

Yes. And that

7:37

separation of when they're

7:40

little kids and that parents'

7:40

values are just basically

7:44

automatically kids' values. That

7:44

distinction of teens and

7:49

preteens starting to separate

7:49

out a little bit can be hard for

7:53

parents. It can feel like a

7:53

rebellion. But really, it's a

7:57

matter of them finding

7:57

themselves. Not a matter of them

8:00

thinking you're stupid, though

8:00

at times, they may express that

8:04

sentiment. But it's really a

8:04

matter of them trying to figure

8:08

out who am I separate from my

8:08

parents, right? Because even

8:12

though they might be 14, as they

8:12

move into 20, 24 34, yada, yada,

8:18

they'll be their own person

8:18

separate from you. And they've

8:21

got to figure out what those

8:21

values that they have are.

8:24

Yes, absolutely.

8:24

And I think that kind of rolls

8:27

right into the piece that Dr.

8:27

Lange reminds us about Thomas

8:31

and Chess' research, and they're

8:31

the temperament gurus that we

8:34

follow. And they really talk a

8:34

lot about goodness of fit. And

8:38

so that idea of goodness of fit

8:38

is the adult caregiver, the

8:42

parent, the adult in the child's

8:42

life, how can they begin to

8:48

adjust and adapt to that child's

8:48

natural factory setting, right,

8:53

and begin to have a good fit

8:53

with that factory setting,

8:57

helping the child learn about

8:57

their temperament, helping

9:01

parents learn about their own

9:01

temperament, and the way that

9:05

those two temperaments come

9:05

together, in sort of like a

9:09

dance, right? And so if we can

9:09

adapt and adjust to those two

9:15

temperaments coming together,

9:15

that's what Thomas and Chess

9:18

call a good fit. And that's what

9:18

we work and strive for. As I

9:23

think about that, I really love

9:23

the idea of thinking about

9:28

temperament and teens as this

9:28

opportunity to finally have this

9:33

really great open conversation

9:33

about why they do what they do.

9:38

Yes?

9:38

Yes, those

9:38

tendencies that you've spent the

9:41

first 12 years of their life

9:41

noticing in their temperament or

9:46

if you're just getting on board

9:46

now, awesome. You still see

9:48

those patterns play out at 15.

9:48

ou get to use that to help the

9:52

understand themselves a little

9:52

ore.

9:58

Absolutely.

9:58

Absolutely. All right, so should

10:01

we pull together the nine

10:01

traits?

10:03

And I do want

10:03

to add one thought, actually an

10:05

aha that I had this weekend. I

10:05

was listening to an audio book

10:09

and a part of it, a very good

10:09

audio book, but a part of it was

10:15

this mother daughter

10:15

relationship. And it talked

10:18

about going from a little girl

10:18

into the teen years or whatever.

10:21

And seeing a part of it was a

10:21

reflection of that mother when

10:26

she had been a teen and how

10:26

similar they were. And I

10:29

couldn't help but think, you

10:29

both have a spirited feisty

10:32

temperament. You're both

10:32

clashing on your persistence, or

10:36

whatever it might be. But I

10:36

thought, you know, thinking

10:40

about knowing we'd be getting

10:40

ready to have this conversation

10:42

around teens and temperament. I

10:42

just thought, the insight that

10:46

would be able to offer those

10:46

characters, but it does give us

10:50

as parents temperament is an

10:50

insight when it feels like, what

10:54

is going on with our teen? You

10:54

know, so often, that's the

10:57

question. Parents are like, ah,

10:57

they're a totally different

10:59

person. And it's like,

10:59

temperament is going to be

11:02

there, it's gonna be the factory

11:02

setting, you're still gonna

11:05

understand your kid, that gives

11:05

you that insight. So yeah, I'm

11:09

excited to walk through these

11:09

traits and talk about that

11:11

insight.

11:12

Alright, so we

11:12

will lump some of them together

11:15

because of this stage of being

11:15

able to share with our kids

11:20

about their temperament. So

11:20

where we really separated them

11:24

out before as children have

11:24

grown, we're going to kind of

11:27

lump some together because they

11:27

really mesh and blend,

11:32

particularly in these teen

11:32

years.

11:34

Yes. So let's

11:34

start with that activity level,

11:36

that's the one we like to kind

11:36

of kick off with. And so

11:39

thinking about, remember, with a

11:39

temperament trait, everybody

11:42

gets it. It's a question of, did

11:42

they get a little or did they

11:45

get a lot or are they somewhere

11:45

in the middle? And so we tend to

11:48

talk about those extremes of a

11:48

little or a lot. And so with a

11:52

teen that is less active,

11:52

they're probably more apt to

11:57

take those breaks to slow down,

11:57

to enjoy those periods of rest,

12:01

right? A little more chill in

12:01

terms of how much movement they

12:05

have, versus your more active

12:05

teen that wants to always be on

12:08

the go, wants to be out and

12:08

about. But I always like to give

12:12

the caveat. I have a low

12:12

activity level and I was a four

12:16

sport athlete. So it's not a

12:16

matter of kids that have a low

12:20

activity level won't be involved

12:20

in things or won't be active.

12:25

But it can be different in terms

12:25

of what feels natural for their

12:28

body. After that big movement,

12:28

do they feel invigorated, ready

12:32

to go? After that big movement,

12:32

do they feel ready for some

12:35

rest? Wanted to give you that

12:35

insight that more active kids

12:39

may enjoy the hop, hop hop from

12:39

different activities, but less

12:43

active kids can too, it just

12:43

might be the breaks might be a

12:46

little different.

12:47

Exactly. And I

12:47

love that hop, hop, hop idea. In

12:51

my head, I'm looking at my own

12:51

children who have different

12:55

activity levels, how did they

12:55

recharge. One child with lower

13:00

activity level recharged by

13:00

sitting quietly. The next child,

13:04

she recharged by taking a slower

13:04

paced walk. She just was still

13:10

active, but it was a different

13:10

type of recharge. Yeah. Okay, so

13:15

I'll take the next two. And the

13:15

next two we are going to put

13:18

together so approach withdrawal,

13:18

that response to the very first

13:23

initial reaction to something

13:23

new. And adaptability, how long

13:27

does it take to make that

13:27

adaptation. As we look at teens,

13:32

and again, their independence

13:32

and identity, thinking about

13:37

involving themselves with other

13:37

friend groups in new activities.

13:42

It's the beginning of the school

13:42

year, possibly at some point in

13:45

time, right. New classes, new

13:45

teachers, and especially with

13:52

teens this age, it's important

13:52

to really talk to them about

13:56

their approach withdrawal or

13:56

their activity level, because as

14:00

they're in their friend groups,

14:00

they might be driving their

14:05

friends crazy. Or they might be

14:05

really irritating their friends

14:09

or their friends might really be

14:09

irritating them, right? So if

14:13

you're a withdrawing or less

14:13

approaching teen, you might not

14:19

be interested in going to the

14:19

brand new restaurant that just

14:23

opened or you might not be

14:23

interested in having new friends

14:30

join your friend group and that

14:30

might be irritating to your

14:34

friends or vice versa. They

14:34

could be irritated by you,

14:41

right, stop inviting people into

14:41

our friend group. Adaptability

14:45

says that less adaptable teen

14:45

that might just take them longer

14:52

to be comfortable with those

14:52

ideas. And so I just want to say

14:57

that the less adaptable less

14:57

approaching teen, they're

15:07

actually not going to be a child

15:07

who's typically a high risk

15:11

taker. Versus the approaching

15:11

teen and the adaptable teen.

15:17

This is your spontaneous kid

15:17

who's saying, hey, this looks

15:21

like fun. This looks like

15:21

something I should do. And they

15:24

might be constantly searching

15:24

tic toc for things that they

15:27

want to try. And so recognizing

15:27

and helping your teen recognize

15:34

if they are adaptable and

15:34

approaching, we might need to

15:39

help them think through the

15:39

entire scenario so that they

15:44

understand what are the

15:44

consequences if I do this high

15:50

risk activity and something

15:50

happens. So those highly

15:55

adaptable, approachable teens,

15:55

they may not put all the puzzle

16:00

pieces together and think about

16:00

the consequences at the end.

16:04

They won't

16:04

heed caution automatically. It

16:08

might be a skill they have to be

16:08

taught.

16:10

Versus the other

16:10

child who is a planner, they

16:13

look at all the puzzle pieces

16:13

before they start to put the

16:16

picture together. So you've got

16:16

the risk taker and the planner.

16:20

Yes, yes. All

16:20

right, and then two more, our

16:23

intensity and sensitivity. Now,

16:23

if you've listened to our

16:27

podcast before you know I love

16:27

intensity. I am very intense. So

16:31

an intense teen or preteen,

16:31

honestly, I think of you're

16:35

going to notice the hormone

16:35

surges in an intense teen or

16:40

preteen. You're going to notice

16:40

that mood and how it can shift

16:43

because with an intense person,

16:43

it's on their sleeves. It is

16:48

expressed. It is felt strongly.

16:48

I think of the door slamming.

16:54

Which for some parents is a

16:54

trigger. And so that will

17:00

probably be your more intense

17:00

teen. Versus your less intense

17:03

teen might be the one where

17:03

you're like, I think something's

17:07

up but I don't know what's going

17:07

on. You don't automatically

17:14

know. They seem a little off.

17:14

It's a subtle, right? It's

17:18

harder to pick up on because

17:18

it's not expressed as strongly.

17:23

Or it can be the child that

17:23

seems unruffled, that's the word

17:28

that I want. Yes. Oh, like,

17:28

okay, like, that's not that big

17:31

of a deal. Yes, the unruffled

17:31

teen. Versus when we think about

17:36

sensitivity, that's a little

17:36

different. Often on our podcast,

17:39

we talk about it in terms of the

17:39

sensory sensitivity, like with

17:43

the five senses. But we also

17:43

want to think about that

17:46

emotional sensitivity, that's

17:46

also a part of temperament. And

17:49

so thinking about how sensitive

17:49

your child is to things like

17:53

feeling left out, right? Do you

17:53

have a child that feels that

17:58

really intensely and strongly in

17:58

their hearts? This breaks them

18:02

up. Or are they kind of like,

18:02

well, you know, maybe they're

18:06

missing out on the cues their

18:06

friends are giving them like,

18:09

no, I think maybe your friends

18:09

are trying to say this. They're

18:13

maybe not catching the subtle as

18:13

much as someone who is more

18:17

sensitive.

18:18

Yes, yes. And

18:18

again, being able to help

18:22

identify for them the

18:22

temperament traits and where

18:26

they fall on the continuum.

18:26

super important. So then I'm

18:30

going to add on distractibility

18:30

and persistence. And again,

18:36

thinking about building their

18:36

identity, right? Who am I in

18:40

this world? Distractible kids,

18:40

persistent kids, less

18:44

distractible, less persistent,

18:44

think about homework. Think

18:48

about task completion, chores,

18:48

sports teams, expectations from

18:56

teachers and coaches. That less

18:56

distractible child happens to

19:01

maybe also be persistent. They

19:01

are zeroed in, locked in,

19:05

focused. They're gonna debate

19:05

with you, argue with you, stick

19:09

to their position and idea,

19:09

right? And so as we think about

19:15

that and creating identity, who

19:15

am I with my friends, you know,

19:19

they might find that they get

19:19

into more arguments with their

19:23

friends or their friend argues

19:23

more with them and you can talk

19:26

with them about, you know,

19:26

persistence and non-distractible

19:31

thinking and I love what you

19:31

talk about when you talk about

19:34

your daughter and how can we

19:34

have flexible thinking? If we

19:38

are persistent and not

19:38

distractible, how can we have

19:42

more flexible thinking? We were

19:42

chatting earlier and you were

19:46

sharing an example about talking

19:46

through, well, it's just a

19:51

different way to think. It's not

19:51

wrong. And how many times I can

19:56

think of my persistent not

19:56

distractible daughter saying,

20:01

that is not right. What my

20:01

friend said is not right. And I

20:06

have to think, okay, well,

20:06

they're just thinking

20:09

differently from you. Yeah.

20:09

Yeah, you know, and it's hard

20:14

because they're, again, they're

20:14

working on identity. So the

20:17

child who is distractible and

20:17

not persistent, you know, that

20:21

might also be an issue in their

20:21

friend group because that child,

20:25

you know, maybe never completes

20:25

their tasks or they have a group

20:28

project at school and that

20:28

person inevitably doesn't

20:32

complete their section. And the

20:32

number of times I can hear my

20:37

own daughter say, that person

20:37

didn't do their part of the

20:42

project and that's not fair.

20:42

Yeah, and it's temperament.

20:46

Right. And so being able to talk

20:46

with her about the different

20:50

temperaments and how she can

20:50

acknowledge and recognize that

20:55

she can't change theirs but she

20:55

can manage her own.

20:59

Oh,

20:59

absolutely. And I love that

21:01

distractibility and persistence

21:01

pairing because sometimes you

21:04

get a little of both or a lot of

21:04

both. But then there's also the

21:07

half and half, right? So highly

21:07

distractible, low persistence,

21:12

okay. Maybe they don't complete

21:12

a task very easily. Or their

21:16

high persistence, right. But

21:16

it's interesting how they play

21:20

out and mismatch those two. Yes.

21:20

And that does bring us to our

21:24

last two which we tend to wrap

21:24

up with these two, regularity

21:29

and mood. I think maybe it's cuz

21:29

they just hang out in the

21:31

background. Yeah. You know, I

21:31

think regularity and mood are

21:34

just kind of like hanging out.

21:34

So in our teens, as we think

21:39

about regularity, that's kind of

21:39

that eat, sleep, poop. That's

21:41

what we used to say when they're

21:41

babies. Yeah, true, still true.

21:45

And into adulthood is still

21:45

true. Right? Do you have one

21:49

that's a little more all over

21:49

the map versus like clockwork?

21:53

This could be your kid who

21:53

you're like, hey, yes, it is

21:56

fun. I know, your friends are

21:56

starting to stay up a lot more.

21:59

You are a kid who struggles if

21:59

you don't get enough sleep. And

22:04

sometimes, for regular adults

22:04

even, I have friends that are

22:08

like, okay, yeah, I'd like to

22:08

hang out. But I have to go to

22:11

bed. I have to. Because they're

22:11

regular and their body's tired.

22:16

Yeah, you know, versus that all

22:16

over the map of like, oh, I

22:19

could stay and hang out, oh,

22:19

well, I'll maybe be a little

22:22

tired but maybe I'll bounce

22:22

back. They're just all over the

22:24

map. You just can't be sure.

22:26

So I have a super

22:26

fun story from this weekend. And

22:29

it's interesting because my

22:29

daughter has grown up with

22:32

temperament. Right? So she knows

22:32

she's very irregular. We plan

22:35

for this. But she recognized how

22:35

her irregularity had kind of

22:40

caught up with her. She has had

22:40

a series of very, very busy

22:43

three weeks, right? And so at

22:43

one point in the weekend, and

22:49

she had some friends say, hey,

22:49

let's have a sleepover. Let's

22:52

all get together and she said

22:52

yes. A couple hours later, she

22:56

told them, you know what? This

22:56

isn't gonna work. I actually

23:01

need some sleep tonight. And I'm

23:01

going to pull back on my invite

23:06

for y'all to sleep over. And I

23:06

mean, I was literally speec

23:10

less. I was so proud of her for

23:10

recognizing that her irregular

23:15

emperament has been on let's g

23:15

, go, go, go, go. I'm fine. I

23:20

m good to go. And then all of

23:20

a sudden, boom, she's like,

23:23

you know what? I need to tak

23:23

some time. super proud that sh

23:28

could recognize that in h

23:28

rself. Yes, yes.

23:32

Okay. And I

23:32

gotta ask, would you say this

23:35

child is sensitive or less

23:35

sensitive?

23:37

Um, she's less, I

23:37

would say she's less sensitive.

23:43

And so it was okay. You know,

23:43

she was okay with whatever their

23:48

response was. Where I can see,

23:48

you know, if she had been more

23:52

sensitive, she might have done

23:52

it anyway because she didn't

23:55

want to hurt their feelings.

23:57

Well, and I'm

23:57

also thinking in terms of I, as

24:01

someone who is also less

24:01

sensitive and irregular, I'm not

24:06

quick to get in tune with my

24:06

body's cues so I would say yes.

24:10

And then later, oh, I'm

24:10

realizing how tired I am. Yeah.

24:16

And it's like, I wasn't paying

24:16

close enough attention because

24:19

I'm not sensitive to those

24:19

things. And yes, if she's a

24:22

little less sensitive, I could

24:22

see how that tiredness was

24:25

sneaking by her. Oh, I'm tired.

24:25

I've got to sleep.

24:31

Yeah, super proud

24:31

that she was brave enough to

24:34

say, you know what, I know I

24:34

invited y'all to stay over but

24:37

y'all are staying home.

24:39

Like, sorry,

24:39

you can't come. I love that.

24:44

Well, and then our last one is

24:44

mood. And so you know, we do

24:47

think about the nature of teens

24:47

is moodiness, right? There's

24:51

hormones. There's a lot of angst

24:51

and frustration, because it's

24:56

hard to figure out who you are.

24:56

It's hard to navigate these

25:00

relationships and have so much

25:00

change happening around you

25:03

during this very formative part

25:03

of your life. And so we know

25:07

that with that higher mood tend

25:07

to be more chipper and cheery.

25:11

And so in teens, when there's a

25:11

negative mood, it can really

25:15

kind of compound. And not that

25:15

it's a bad trait, right, that

25:18

doesn't make negative or low

25:18

mood, a bad trait. But one

25:22

specific challenge can be that

25:22

moodiness mixing with that more

25:25

serious or somber perspective.

25:25

Sometimes people might say

25:29

pessimistic when they're talking

25:29

about low mood. And so that can

25:32

really kind of create a little

25:32

whirlwind of just difficult

25:36

emotions for parents to help

25:36

their teams manage. And so being

25:40

prepared for that child that is

25:40

a little more serious that you

25:43

might need to help coach them

25:43

through some of that.

25:46

Absolutely. And

25:46

their friends, too, right? Yes,

25:50

absolutely. Or help them

25:50

recognize that they have a

25:53

friend that has a more negative

25:53

mood. So yes, I think the

25:58

takeaway from all of this, and

25:58

even in the younger ages, but

26:02

especially for the preteens,

26:02

teens, adolescent at 12 to 17,

26:06

right, is the idea that we can

26:06

help them learn their

26:12

temperament style. We can help

26:12

them learn what their factory

26:17

settings are. Because we help

26:17

them learn, we can help them

26:21

make a plan. And the super cool

26:21

thing about it is we can have

26:25

them actively participate. They

26:25

can help make that plan. They

26:31

can help create ideas on how to

26:31

manage that factory setting,

26:37

right? Oh, yeah, I love that.

26:39

They get to

26:39

be involved in a different way

26:41

because they're more developed.

26:41

They're not all the way there.

26:45

Right? Their brain is not fully

26:45

developed but they've come

26:48

really far since age four.

26:50

Absolutely. And

26:50

good point because guess what,

26:53

they actually have about 10 to

26:53

maybe even 12 more years of

26:57

brain development. So even if

26:57

they are persistent and really

27:03

great at debating you, their

27:03

brain still has growth to do.

27:10

Yes. Which can be hard, right?

27:10

Especially when they're slamming

27:14

those doors.

27:17

Yeah, well,

27:17

the thing I think about in the

27:20

preteen and the teen years that

27:20

I think is unique with

27:23

temperament, is that future

27:23

planning, right? They're

27:26

thinking about picking college,

27:26

or am I going to go into the

27:29

military or what kind of job do

27:29

I want to have after I graduate?

27:32

And so there's all this future

27:32

lingering over this whole period

27:37

of development. And so one

27:37

activity that we do, it's

27:40

actually in a parenting program

27:40

that's from Iowa State

27:43

University Extension and

27:43

Outreach, called Strengthening

27:47

Families Program for Parents and

27:47

Youth 10 to 14. And one of the

27:51

things we do is something called

27:51

dream maps. But it's this idea

27:55

that kids get to put down on

27:55

paper what they want in the

27:58

future, who do they want to be,

27:58

what kinds of things would they

28:01

like to achieve, what's

28:01

important to them in the future,

28:04

and then they get to share it

28:04

with their parents. And so

28:08

hopefully, we get the chance to

28:08

do that through conversation

28:10

with our teens and preteens. But

28:10

it's this thing of like, you're

28:14

going to be somebody and you

28:14

have to start figuring out who

28:16

that somebody is going to be and

28:16

what job you want to have and

28:19

all this stuff. And so I do, I

28:19

think about how temperament

28:22

plays into that. Absolutely, the

28:22

insight we get on how they're

28:26

going to move through the world

28:26

and the communication skills

28:30

that we can teach them and so

28:30

that future orientation of the

28:35

stage is just really fascinating

28:35

to me, that temperament is gonna

28:39

be a part of that, whether you

28:39

have a kid that's going to jump

28:42

in, or a kid like my husband,

28:42

who knew he wanted to work in

28:45

the field he's in when he was in

28:45

like second grade. You know,

28:48

that planner, that less

28:48

adaptable. Versus I changed my

28:53

major four times in college.

28:53

And, you know, so I just think

28:58

that's really fascinating to

28:58

see, and help them learn those

29:02

skills that are relevant to

29:02

their temperament so they can

29:06

make those big decisions that

29:06

are going to come their way.

29:09

Absolutely.

29:11

I'm just sitting

29:11

here giggling about my oldest

29:13

because she has wanted to be a

29:13

zookeeper since she was little.

29:19

And that's what she is. And she

29:19

actually is withdrawing,

29:25

somewhat withdrawing, and

29:25

somewhat not adaptable. It's

29:29

like you put that together and

29:29

I'm like, aha, I knew these

29:34

things but I hadn't put that

29:34

piece together. Thank you for

29:37

that. She'll giggle when I tell her.

29:38

Yes, with you

29:38

talking about sensitivity. I

29:41

don't remember which episode we were talking to, you said something about it and I was

29:43

like, yeah, yeah. Things click

29:49

as we talk about them, and I'm

29:49

not kidding. The aha I've talked

29:52

about with mood. I said a few

29:52

episodes ago, I have a high mood

29:56

and I worry that people take my

29:56

silliness as not smart. Yes.

30:02

Like, she's goofing around and

30:02

okay, I'm goofing around and I

30:05

know what I'm talking about. But

30:05

the thing is that the more we

30:10

dig into temperament, I feel

30:10

like the wealth of wisdom just

30:15

keeps going. Like we could talk

30:15

about this forever and I'd still

30:18

be having new aha moments.

30:19

It does. It does.

30:19

Can we have another a third

30:21

season on temperament? Do you

30:21

think Mackenzie and Barb will be

30:24

like no more?

30:26

Well,

30:26

apparently, it's like, every odd

30:28

season, we think of something

30:28

that we could loop into

30:31

temperament.

30:35

I don't know.

30:35

Okay, so let's talk reality,

30:38

right. Let's talk about how does

30:38

this look in our homes, in our

30:44

schools, in our life. And so one

30:44

thing that we've been doing this

30:49

season is we've kind of been

30:49

taking liberty to say we think

30:53

we know what you are surfing the

30:53

internet for at 2am when it

30:57

comes to the specific ages. So

30:57

when it comes to teenagers, and

31:02

you're up at 2am, anyway, right,

31:02

because they've missed curfew.

31:06

What is it that you're surfing

31:06

the internet looking for answers

31:09

on? And we thought that for

31:09

teens and adolescence preteens,

31:15

this whole idea of making

31:15

decisions on their own without

31:19

their parents, creating their

31:19

own identity, might be that

31:25

problem that you're searching

31:25

online for answers for.

31:29

And the

31:29

conflict it creates of you now

31:34

have this dissonance of like,

31:34

okay, for a long time, I felt

31:36

like we were on the same page and now.

31:39

Who are you? No

31:39

longer on the same page. Yeah.

31:44

So what do we

31:44

do when our kids make choices

31:47

that do not align with our

31:47

family values or family

31:49

expectations? How do we handle

31:49

when your child breaks a rule,

31:54

which inevitably happens with

31:54

teens? Because they are trying

31:58

to find their own way? Yeah,

31:58

even your quote unquote,

32:02

well-behaved, there's going to

32:02

be times they don't meet your

32:05

expectations around chores,

32:05

around getting home on time,

32:09

around being honest about where

32:09

they are. There's all these

32:13

areas that as they look for more

32:13

independence, you're going to

32:17

run into some conflict.

32:18

Absolutely.

32:18

Absolutely. So okay. You talked

32:22

a little bit about the program

32:22

that Iowa State has, do you want

32:26

to use that maybe for our

32:26

reality? Okay, yeah.

32:30

So one of the

32:30

things we talked about is from

32:32

this, we call it SFP 10-14, for

32:32

short. But yes, the

32:35

Strengthening Families Program

32:35

for parents and youth that have

32:38

kids 10-14. So we talk about

32:38

this idea of big problems have

32:44

bigger solutions or bigger

32:44

penalties. And small problems

32:48

have smaller solutions or

32:48

penalties, smaller consequences.

32:51

Yes. So as we think about what

32:51

do we do when our child breaks

32:56

curfew, uses a substance that we

32:56

are not okay with, when they

33:00

make a choice that we think is

33:00

too risky, when all of these

33:03

things? What do we do about

33:03

that? How do we handle it? And

33:06

the fact that there's going to

33:06

be different things, right? You

33:09

might have that whole list of

33:09

everything I said, you're like,

33:12

yeah, how do I address each of them?

33:14

Yes. Right now.

33:16

Yes. And so

33:16

we do, we talk about guidance

33:20

and discipline, that it's about

33:20

teaching our kids about

33:23

appropriate behavior. We really

33:23

want to teach them what we

33:26

expect and what we want them to

33:26

do, rather than just always

33:30

punishing what we don't want

33:30

them to do. So there's a couple

33:33

different ways we can achieve

33:33

this. But the big point of this

33:36

is that it's on a scale, right?

33:36

When it's a small issue, it's a

33:40

small consequence. When it's a

33:40

big issue, it's a big

33:42

consequence. So the thing that

33:42

comes to mind for me that you

33:46

hear about was, well, we just

33:46

took away their phone. And

33:52

parents do this for a variety of

33:52

reasons. But we can get to a

33:56

point of having a default

33:56

consequence, that no matter what

34:00

happens, oh, we're gonna take

34:00

away your phone. But we want our

34:04

consequences to be logical and

34:04

natural. So what makes sense for

34:09

this specific behavior, this

34:09

specific miscommunication or

34:14

dishonesty or breaking this

34:14

rule, right? The big for big,

34:19

and the small for small.

34:20

Yes. There's not

34:20

just one consequence for

34:23

everything. So there is not the

34:23

consequence of we're taking your

34:28

phone away for 30 days because

34:28

you didn't unload the

34:31

dishwasher. And we take your

34:31

phone away for 30 days when you

34:35

break curfew and refuse to tell

34:35

us where you were while you were

34:38

breaking curfew. Yes, two very

34:38

different issues, right, two

34:45

very different rules that have

34:45

been broken. So having the

34:51

default or the same consequence

34:51

actually in the child's brain,

34:56

because again remember, not

34:56

fully developed, in the child's

35:01

brain it's the same consequence.

35:01

Well, I might as well just do

35:06

this anyway, because this is

35:06

going to happen. Where our adult

35:10

brain is saying, okay, but don't

35:10

you leverage the 30 days without

35:14

your phone into the equation?

35:14

No, actually they don't. And so

35:19

looking at are there different

35:19

things that we can have, let's

35:25

say loss of privileges, perhaps.

35:25

Yes, loss of privileges for

35:29

those smaller misbehaviors,

35:29

those smaller things that

35:33

happen. And so as we look at

35:33

this list of what are some

35:37

privileges that they have. What

35:37

are privileges? Privileges can

35:41

be that they can stay out till

35:41

8pm without telling me where

35:46

they're going, or they can stay

35:46

at these seven friends' house

35:51

without me checking in?

35:54

Or any of

35:54

these places, that's okay.

35:56

Yeah, a privilege

35:56

might be that, you know, they

36:00

get to have their phone past 9pm

36:00

for the weekend, or whatever,

36:06

whatever those privileges are.

36:06

One thing that you can do with

36:08

teens, is you can actually make

36:08

a list of privileges to lose and

36:16

consequences to be implemented,

36:16

right? And I love what Barb Dunn

36:21

Swanson told us, she said that

36:21

when you have teens actually

36:24

make those lists, they actually

36:24

come up with some pretty harsh

36:27

things.

36:28

Yeah. So

36:28

they'll be tougher on them than

36:30

you would have.

36:31

Exactly, exactly.

36:31

And so coming up with that list

36:34

ahead of the problem that

36:34

happens is really important. And

36:40

you can do that because your

36:40

child in this stage is capable

36:45

of it.

36:45

Oh, yeah. And

36:45

so I think, you know, how do we

36:48

follow this? When kids are

36:48

little, I think it's almost

36:51

easier to do this natural

36:51

logical consequence of whether

37:01

it's a small issue or a big

37:01

issue, you know, the

37:03

consequence. And so a couple

37:03

examples of things that come to

37:06

mind. You know, I think of okay,

37:06

you didn't do the chore. I told

37:10

you this needs to happen before

37:10

Wednesday night. I need you to

37:14

empty the dishwasher. I need you

37:14

to take out the garbage,

37:16

whatever that thing may be. I

37:16

need you to do it before

37:18

Wednesday night. And you tell

37:18

them that on Sunday. When

37:21

tonight comes, not done. Okay, I

37:21

need you to do it now. Right?

37:26

The loss of the privilege of you

37:26

can do it whenever you get to it

37:31

before this timeline. Okay, that

37:31

didn't happen. Okay, next time I

37:35

need you to do it right now. Or

37:35

I need you to do it tonight.

37:38

Because if I let you

37:38

self-moderate, I don't know if

37:40

you're going to do it. So at

37:40

some point tonight, you have to

37:43

do this. And that might mean,

37:43

you have to do it before you go

37:45

somewhere. Or you have to do it,

37:45

yes, it's inconvenient for you.

37:51

And then they can slowly maybe

37:51

work back up to being in charge

37:54

with more flexibility. So again,

37:54

small issue, small consequences.

37:57

And being able to

37:57

earn it back. I love that you

38:00

snuck that in there. Because

38:00

let's say that you do have this

38:04

long consequence, you know, two

38:04

weeks, three weeks, 30 days,

38:07

whatever. Boy, for a teen, a

38:07

preteen, their brain actually to

38:14

have a consequence for that long

38:14

period of time, is really

38:22

difficult on their development,

38:22

especially because during that

38:26

time, there's a lot of shame

38:26

happening in their head. It is

38:30

now two weeks after the offense,

38:30

and I'm still shaming myself

38:35

over it. It is now three weeks

38:35

past the event and I am still

38:41

shaming and so are you. I'm not

38:41

saying long consequences are not

38:46

acceptable. They absolutely are.

38:46

But are their privileges they

38:50

can begin to earn back during a

38:50

long consequence? So if the

38:56

consequence is a long 30 day

38:56

period of something without

38:59

their phone, let's say that

38:59

right? Yeah. Is there a way to

39:03

arn their phone back for an hour

39:03

on Thursday afternoon? Is ther

39:07

a way to earn their phone b

39:07

ck for the weekend that they ar

39:11

with you the whole time. A

39:11

d so allowing those opportu

39:16

ities to step back away from th

39:16

t shame of the consequ

39:20

nce, and begin to grow their s

39:20

lf esteem as well as their d

39:25

velopment and to show that, yo

39:25

know, we can renegotiate in our

39:29

family. We can hold firm to con

39:29

equences, but we can also as a

39:34

family, renegotiate. And we

39:34

ll have imperfections but we

39:39

an renegotiate around consequ

39:39

nces.

39:47

Yes. Well, and I think that also gives our teens and preteens an

39:49

understanding that we value

39:52

their opinion and their voice

39:52

which teaches them that their

39:55

voice has value in the world.

39:55

Yeah, right. And so like, okay,

39:59

yep, this is we said. Okay, I'm

39:59

listening that you would like to

40:04

have your phone this weekend.

40:04

Okay, what do I do as your

40:07

parent about the fact that I

40:07

couldn't trust or you were

40:10

dishonest, or whatever that

40:10

thing was, and putting that back

40:14

in their court. That creates

40:14

that problem solving, helping

40:18

them process risk taking and

40:18

consequences. Those are all

40:21

skills we can build as they earn

40:21

it back. We show them we respect

40:25

them, and we're going to hold

40:25

our expectation that they need

40:28

to be honest or on time. I often

40:28

think of the issue around curfew

40:33

as well. Yes, you know, that the

40:33

flexibility of, okay, yep, you

40:39

have to be home by this time.

40:39

Right? And then maybe as our

40:43

kids earn, right, they're

40:43

consistently home. They're good

40:46

communicators. They're honest.

40:46

Maybe they earn more

40:48

flexibility. I think of when I

40:48

was growing up, one of my

40:53

sisters got to set her own

40:53

curfew based on what she was

40:55

doing. So one night, it might

40:55

be, I'll be home by 10. And one

40:58

night, it might be, we were

40:58

thinking about going to this

41:01

late movie, could I be home by

41:01

12:30? But the expectation was

41:05

that that came with a lot of

41:05

communication. Absolutely. We're

41:07

here. Now we're here, now we're

41:07

here. And then when that's

41:11

broken, it's like, nope, you've

41:11

got to be home by 10 every

41:14

night. So that flexibility is a

41:14

big privilege and freedom. And

41:19

there's ways to use that other

41:19

than, well, you're grounded. And

41:24

there's times when grounding is

41:24

appropriate, right? I think of a

41:27

situation where you were

41:27

dishonest about this event, what

41:31

it was going to be, who's gonna

41:31

be there, all those things? I

41:35

might not let you go to that if

41:35

you were dishonest with me about

41:37

it. Yeah. And so we're not

41:37

saying there's only one way to

41:40

discipline, we are talking about

41:40

matching our consequences with

41:46

the issue at hand when there was

41:46

a breach of trust or

41:50

expectations. So I feel like I'm

41:50

belaboring it a little bit.

41:55

There's a lot of questions about

41:55

it. It's hard for parents to

41:58

navigate this.

41:59

And the bottom

41:59

line is there should not just be

42:01

one default.

42:03

Yeah. Yes.

42:03

The size, the bigness of it

42:10

should affect the consequences

42:10

and how we navigate it with our

42:13

kids, for sure. Yeah, yeah. But

42:13

we think there's one other issue

42:17

in addition to this idea of

42:17

conflict, and then finding

42:21

themselves and their identity.

42:21

We want to bring in one of our

42:25

other team members to talk about

42:25

this idea of communication

42:29

around expectations and

42:29

communication through conflict.

42:34

So we want to bring in our

42:34

teammate, Barb, and she's going

42:37

to talk with us a little bit

42:37

about another concept related to

42:40

communication with our teens and preteens.

42:43

What a great

42:43

segue, because communication,

42:46

really, you know, it's the heart

42:46

of this whole moving through our

42:53

journey into adulthood.

42:55

It sure is.

42:57

Parents have

42:57

such an enormous job launching

43:02

their family members. And if

43:02

they start with clear

43:05

communication from the

43:05

beginning, it really sets the

43:09

tone for what that family

43:09

expectations can look like,

43:13

right? Yeah, we were talking in

43:13

the season of resilience how

43:17

important communication is. And

43:17

then today, when we start

43:22

thinking about the teen years,

43:22

and all the unpredictability of

43:29

hormones, emotions, the need to

43:29

belong, is so strong when we're

43:36

a teen. We want to find our

43:36

place in the world. We want to

43:41

know who our friends are going

43:41

to be, will they like me? And

43:45

now my body is changing in all

43:45

of these ways. As parents, we

43:49

need to communicate with our

43:49

kids that you know what? We've

43:53

got you and let's talk through

43:53

all of these changes together.

43:58

You belong with us.

44:00

I love that.

44:01

Absolutely.

44:01

And then you talked about the

44:04

fact that consequences are

44:04

necessary. Even as adults, there

44:09

are consequences. If I speed in

44:09

the car because I'm late for

44:16

something, and then I get a

44:16

ticket, that's a consequence,

44:20

right? So consequences aren't

44:20

just about kids. It's about what

44:28

happens throughout life. And if

44:28

we can communicate that to our

44:32

kids, that you know what,

44:32

consequences are about helping

44:35

us stay safe, and about having a

44:35

boundary and a limit so that I

44:39

know where I am and where I can

44:39

stay safe. Those are the things

44:46

that we want to communicate to

44:46

kids so that they know we're not

44:48

trying to be harsh, right? We're

44:48

not trying to be unreasonable.

44:53

We're trying to keep everybody

44:53

in the family safe and the

44:58

communication is around our

44:58

family values. We think about

45:03

what those values look like,

45:03

like we value honesty. And

45:07

therefore, that's why we're

45:07

asking you to not lie when I ask

45:12

you where you were, you simply

45:12

tell me where you were. And then

45:16

let's talk about what the next

45:16

steps are.

45:20

And I think you make a good point, Barb, that I was actually reading the

45:21

textbook around parenting for a

45:25

class that I'm taking. We talk

45:25

about as kids get older, like in

45:30

this preteen teen phase, the

45:30

older they are, the more

45:33

important the reasons. Yeah. The

45:33

reasons that we have that

45:37

expectation. The reason we value

45:37

honesty, you know, and so those

45:41

reasons become really important.

45:41

And so there's this little

45:44

formula in our Strengthening

45:44

Families Program for Parents and

45:49

Youth 10 to 14, where we talk

45:49

about what language you can use

45:53

to express those reasons, the

45:53

consequences and the

45:56

expectations, right.

45:58

Yes. So

45:58

that's a great strategy that a

46:01

parent can use, and here's how

46:01

it sounds. It sounds like this.

46:05

I feel, and then you give a

46:05

feeling word like maybe,

46:10

grouchy, unhappy, frustrated. I

46:10

feel disrespected. I feel, and

46:19

then whatever that feeling is,

46:19

because, and that because might

46:25

be, because you spoke harshly to

46:25

me, because you did not come

46:30

home by curfew. Because you

46:30

stayed up with your cell phone,

46:38

when you knew that cell phones

46:38

go off at 10pm. And you still

46:43

had your cell phone at 11pm.

46:46

So I feel

46:46

grouchy because I asked for this

46:50

to be cleaned up and it's not.

46:53

So then

46:53

here's the second part, I want

46:56

you to follow the rules. I want

46:56

you or I need you to make sure

47:05

that your cell phone is turned

47:05

off at 10 o'clock. Now here's

47:08

the piece that's missing for the

47:08

kids. Kids need to know why. I

47:14

mean, it doesn't seem like a big

47:14

deal. My friends were still

47:16

texting me. But here's the why.

47:16

Because I know your mood. We're

47:23

going back to temperament. We're

47:23

connecting. We're connecting it

47:26

right back to temperament. I

47:26

know your adaptability and in

47:30

the morning when you're still

47:30

sleepy, you're less adaptable.

47:36

And I know that'll frustrate you

47:36

getting ready for school in the

47:40

morning. So believe me, it's not

47:40

because I don't want you to have

47:45

good communication with your

47:45

friends and be texting. But it's

47:48

because I love you and you need

47:48

your sleep. Sounds awesome.

47:53

Communicating the why. Letting

47:53

the kids know that it's because

47:58

I want you safe, and I know what

47:58

your temperament is and I want

48:04

you to be healthy and this is

48:04

one of the ways you're going to

48:07

feel good about yourself.

48:09

Yes, yes.

48:09

Well, I think that idea of, I

48:12

feel when or I feel because.

48:12

Like, I feel grouchy because

48:16

this is not picked up and I

48:16

asked for it to be. I want you

48:20

to pick it up now. Right?

48:20

Because, and I'll be honest, I

48:26

feel overwhelmed when it's messy

48:26

like this, because it's hard for

48:30

me to communicate effectively

48:30

with you when you don't do what

48:32

I asked. Because whatever the

48:32

reason might be, we're giving

48:37

that emotion word or the impact

48:37

of your child's behavior, what

48:41

you want them to do, or what

48:41

specific behavior. We talked

48:45

about "stop it" syndrome. Knock

48:45

it off it or I told you, and

48:51

being specific about what

48:51

behavior rather than you knew,

48:55

you knew. But yeah, I love that

48:55

little formula is like a cheat

48:59

sheet of I feel when, I want you

48:59

to because. I want you to put

49:05

that phone away because you need

49:05

nine hours of sleep. It's a

49:09

bummer that your friends don't.

49:09

You do. Yes. Oh, yes. Well,

49:15

thanks, Barb. It's good to just

49:15

kind of chat through these

49:18

challenges that our kids go

49:18

through and that we go through

49:23

so thanks for hopping in here

49:23

with us today to talk about

49:26

that.

49:26

You are welcome.

49:28

I'm sure we'll get to see Barb another day.

49:31

I think we will.

49:32

So we've

49:32

covered a lot. I love this lens

49:35

of looking at temperament at the

49:35

age because we know those things

49:38

push together of what our kids

49:38

are working on in terms of

49:41

getting more independent. That

49:41

our teens and preteens are

49:44

having this puberty experience.

49:44

Their temperament plays into

49:48

that, the social friendships,

49:48

all of the stuff that's

49:51

happening around them,

49:51

temperament is a part of it, and

49:53

it gives us that insight to kind

49:53

of anticipate and to help teach

49:57

the skills that they're going to

49:57

need moving into adulthood. So

49:59

yeah, I love it.

50:00

I do, too. And

50:00

the whole concept of we can

50:03

teach them because of their age

50:03

right now, what their factory

50:07

setting is. So sharing with them

50:07

what that factory setting is and

50:10

how it's impacting their

50:10

relationships with their

50:12

friends. So thanks for joining

50:12

us today on The Science of

50:17

Parenting. We are grateful for

50:17

all of you that already to

50:22

subscribe to our podcast. And

50:22

for those of you that haven't

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50:26

make sure that you subscribe and

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on The Science of Parenting.

50:34

Yes, please

50:34

do come along with us as we

50:36

tackle the ups and downs, the

50:36

ins and outs, and the research

50:40

and reality all around The

50:40

Science of Parenting.

50:43

The Science of

50:43

Parenting is hosted by Lori

50:45

Korthals and Mackenzie Johnson,

50:45

produced by Mackenzie DeJong,

50:48

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50:48

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