0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music and

0:04

more. A

0:08

couple of decades ago, you're kind

0:10

of going against the grain of some of the

0:12

other scientists you are working with. How

0:14

do you persuade someone to give you money to do

0:16

that? Let's say everything's a couple

0:18

of decades delayed and you're trying to persuade

0:20

someone to do that now. Do you think

0:22

you'd be able to, given the current funding

0:25

environment? Yeah, so when we went a

0:27

couple of decades ago, it

0:29

was sufficiently new and it was ambitious.

0:31

I guess if I was in the UK and I tried to put

0:33

this project up in the UK, it was

0:35

being seen as totally high risk and too unknown.

0:37

And so it definitely would not have worked in

0:40

the UK, whereas it did work in Australia. So

0:42

I think being more ambitious in Australia on

0:44

a project of high risk is better. So rather than

0:47

do you think it's risky here, you can actually be

0:49

ambitious here. So I think in the UK, it's harder

0:51

to be ambitious in that way. So

0:53

I think for younger scientists, quite often they get a

0:55

knockback on getting grants and then they

0:57

feel like, oh, this is a terrible system. And

0:59

they fall into the trap of thinking it's the

1:01

system and not them. And I think with those

1:03

young people I say, you've got to passionately believe

1:05

in it. You've got to write something exciting. You've

1:07

got to keep going. You've got to totally back

1:09

yourself. And if you do that and you constantly

1:11

do that, I think opportunities open up for you.

1:14

But if you hold yourself back in doubt or get

1:16

caught in the negative spiral, which is what happened in

1:18

Cambridge, then you end up just limiting what you can

1:20

achieve. Michelle Simmons. Thank you. Catherine

1:26

Luckin asking that curly question of Michelle

1:30

Simmons, one of our top 100

1:32

scientists, launched on the science show

1:34

last week. Your comments on

1:36

this list still coming in. Hello,

1:38

Robin Williams with a program full of koalas of parrots and

1:42

a visit to Papua New Guinea led by Joe

1:44

Chandler to show how scientists there

1:46

are getting on with the job. And I think

1:48

that's a great question. And I think that's

1:50

a great question. And I think that's

1:52

a great question. Show how scientists there are getting

1:54

on with the job, despite the

1:57

turmoil and the drought. about

2:00

the top 100. First, how

2:02

come science took off in Australia at

2:04

all and not just gambling, fighting and

2:06

scorched earth? The answer

2:08

is threefold. First, this land and

2:11

sea and sky is a vast

2:13

treasure of wonder, a new one.

2:16

Nature, unlike anything seen before,

2:18

yes wreaths, yes ruse,

2:21

but also the cosmos. As Sir

2:23

Thomas Brisbane noted, he

2:25

was a leading astronomer. Stars

2:28

not seen in the north, his pleasure.

2:31

Second, indigenous people have been doing natural history

2:33

here for 65,000 years.

2:37

Third, when Europeans turned up, they

2:39

established great universities just like in

2:41

Europe. And one scientist

2:43

now in Brisbane, one of the two capitals

2:46

we have named after scientists, Professor

2:48

Grant Hamilton is studying one of

2:50

our icons, koalas, to help them

2:52

survive. Now Grant is

2:54

not in the top 100 yet, but

2:57

close. The question is, as

2:59

for Thomas Brisbane, how did

3:01

he start in science? Can you guess?

3:04

Why do you not simply photograph

3:06

koalas from the sky and count

3:09

them that way? I'd

3:11

love to be able to do that. It would

3:13

make things so much easier. The trouble is that

3:15

koalas evolve to be difficult to see. And

3:18

so simply looking for them is a

3:20

challenge. And there are experts who can

3:23

do that and do it quite well

3:25

from the ground. But what

3:27

we've found is that using the

3:29

heat signature, the thermal image actually

3:31

comes through the canopy much more

3:34

easily than the visual signal. So

3:36

we can cover very large areas looking

3:38

for the heat signature rather than trying

3:41

to find these hidden grey

3:43

dots. How do you know

3:45

it's not a large parrot or squirrel?

3:47

I doubt we'd find squirrels, but it's quite

3:50

reasonable to say would there be a

3:53

large possum. Part of that is around

3:55

shape, part of that is around a

3:57

particular thermal signature, but part

3:59

of it which some people might not

4:01

like to hear, is that with any

4:03

kind of survey that you do, there

4:06

is an error. There is

4:08

a margin of error whether you are

4:10

looking for things with binoculars or

4:13

whether you're looking at things with a drone. And

4:15

so the question for me is not, is

4:18

it perfect? Is

4:20

it useful? Can we use

4:22

those numbers to track the trajectory

4:25

going up or down, depending on

4:27

what's happening? And

4:29

when you compare your observations

4:31

using heat signals with counting

4:33

on the ground, how do

4:35

you perform? Based on

4:38

the work that we've done, we have

4:40

compared this against radio collared koalas. Our

4:43

accuracy is around 85% to 100%. Now there are going

4:45

to be things that impact on that. If

4:49

you have very dense canopy, it's going to be harder

4:52

to get high accuracy. But in

4:54

fact, those same things impact on human

4:56

observers who are simply looking from the

4:58

ground. And so we have

5:00

to be aware once again that there is

5:02

error in everything and we need to account

5:04

for the error. But

5:06

why is it so important to know

5:09

the real numbers? Because you're planning, obviously,

5:11

in New South Wales, they're looking at

5:13

forming a very large koala park. So

5:16

presumably they have to know what the population

5:18

is. Well, that's exactly right. I

5:20

mean, if we want to manage anything,

5:23

if we want to do the

5:25

right thing, instead of watch them

5:27

slowly dwindle away to extinction, we

5:29

have to understand what's there now and

5:32

what's the effect of whatever we're

5:34

doing. To do that, we need

5:36

baseline numbers. We need to know what's

5:38

there now. And we need to be able

5:40

to connect our management actions to the outcomes.

5:44

So we need to know what's going to be there

5:46

in five years' time, in ten years' time, and

5:48

hopefully we're doing the right things. Did

5:51

you do any measurements in Kangaroo

5:53

Island, South Australia? Yeah, we certainly

5:55

did. So after the fires that

5:57

happened in 2019, 2020.

6:01

We worked with people down there who

6:03

provided us with drone data and

6:06

we looked at the impacts of the

6:08

fires and in some

6:10

of the areas, koalas, the populations,

6:12

but devastated and interestingly in some

6:14

of the other areas they

6:16

were fine and that kind of granularity,

6:19

that level of resolution is quite

6:21

difficult to get at speed with

6:23

any other way. How

6:26

does the system work? Because you're looking

6:28

for infrared signals of

6:30

heat and you've got a

6:32

drone up there looking down, so

6:35

how does the signal get interpreted and

6:37

maintained? We indeed put drones up and

6:39

they cover a very large area, so

6:41

compared to humans they might cover 50

6:44

or 60 hectares. They're flying in

6:46

what we call a lawn mower pattern, so

6:48

it simply flies down, that's the way you would mow

6:50

your lawn, there's a bit of a crossover

6:53

and it flies back again. What we're

6:55

doing is looking for the

6:57

signatures of any animals that

7:00

are in the canopy, so that's where

7:03

we're focusing, looking for

7:05

the canopy animals. So the interesting

7:07

thing about using thermal imagery

7:09

is that it seems that what

7:11

happens is that the thermal imagery

7:14

is getting through the canopy a

7:16

lot better than the visual signals

7:18

get through. So that's a huge

7:21

advantage for us because then

7:23

that puts into train the idea that well

7:25

one can develop a system to

7:27

count those thermal signals. So

7:30

what else could you study or

7:32

have you studied a portray or

7:34

somehow in the canopy? Well certainly one of

7:37

the huge problems conservation and

7:39

biodiversity is in a

7:42

really parlour state at the moment and

7:44

I guess I would argue that AI

7:46

and technology are one of the really

7:48

important things we need to get a

7:50

hold of and to use well to

7:53

help save the planet because it's

7:56

going downhill fairly fast. So

7:59

we can study anything that's sufficiently large

8:01

and has the ecology so that

8:03

we can detect them. So for

8:05

example if something was living in

8:07

a burrow it's very hard to

8:09

detect with thermal imagery. Incidentally

8:12

we don't have to use thermal imagery.

8:14

If something is available to

8:16

be photographed for example we can use

8:18

camera traps and that's a fairly widespread

8:20

kind of technique but the idea that

8:22

we use there is we take that

8:25

imagery and we create abundance estimates.

8:27

We find out how many things are there.

8:29

So we've looked for example at deer

8:32

and deer are a real problem.

8:34

Have been for a while but it's

8:36

emerging now into the consciousness of governments

8:38

that we need to do things to

8:41

control them because they're having massive impacts.

8:43

Because when you're rewilding and

8:45

these lovely shoots come up after you've

8:47

got rid of the alien trees I'm

8:50

thinking of Scotland mainly where

8:52

you've got plantations there for

8:54

wood in other words for

8:57

timber and when

8:59

you're reestablishing the original

9:01

natural systems with their peat

9:04

bogs and so on the deer

9:06

move in and gobble up all the

9:08

new shoots. Yeah and it's a very

9:10

difficult thing for people to understand because

9:12

we have this popular Bambi conception you

9:14

know they're cute but they're

9:17

a hoofed animal in Australia in a

9:19

landscape that doesn't do well with hoofed

9:21

animals and they

9:23

destroy the vegetation native vegetation

9:26

and whether it's in areas that

9:28

are being rewilded whether it's reforestation

9:30

or whether it's simply impacting

9:32

on areas of native

9:35

vegetation they can do huge

9:37

amounts of damage. Tell

9:39

me in your evolution your personal evolution did you

9:41

start off as a tech person

9:43

or did you start off as an ecology

9:45

person? I started off as a registered nurse.

9:47

Tell me. A long time

9:49

ago I studied medicine failed medicine

9:52

became a registered nurse traveled the world and

9:55

spent time working in Africa for

9:58

example helping people And

10:00

I think the idea is very similar

10:02

in that, honestly, I think what we

10:04

need to be doing as scientists is

10:07

helping. We need to be helping the

10:09

environment and we need to be creating

10:11

real impact on the ground. Creating knowledge

10:13

is really important, but translating that knowledge

10:15

and helping other people to

10:18

create impact is fundamental. But

10:21

how did you get the various skills? You've

10:23

got the technical side, you've got the ecological

10:25

side and who knows what other? Curiosity

10:28

and hard work. I

10:30

think I've worked in a number

10:32

of areas and I think the

10:34

thing to do is to create

10:36

networks of like-minded people to think

10:39

with a focus about how you

10:41

want to make change. I

10:44

was always a quantitative person, so

10:46

I don't program AI. For example,

10:48

I work with a colleague, Dr.

10:50

Simon Denman, and he's really,

10:52

really good at that. And I don't

10:55

think there's anyone who can do every

10:57

single part of a project. How

10:59

do you put a team together that can

11:01

achieve great things? That's one of the real

11:03

skills I think we need to learn. And

11:06

an inspiration for young people wanted to

11:08

come up. In other words, you can

11:10

do wonderful things by just sticking your

11:13

head down and learning whatever

11:15

requires. Absolutely, it's essential

11:17

that what we do is get

11:19

people involved in whatever way they

11:22

can in solving these problems. And

11:24

I think there's a much more

11:26

nuanced view these days. Science

11:28

is fundamental. We need to be working

11:31

with science. But also we

11:33

need to be working with communicators like

11:35

you. We need to be creating impact

11:37

in multiple different ways because

11:39

honestly, there is a timeline

11:42

here and time is

11:44

rapidly running out. We have to make

11:46

change. by

12:00

our Indigenous folk, but also formally

12:02

at universities by Charles Birch

12:04

of the University of Sydney. Next

12:08

on the science show, here on our end, one

12:10

of the best books of last year, and now,

12:13

Getting to Know Your Birds in Your

12:15

Neighbourhood. OK, no jokes. This

12:18

is serious. Darryl Jones is a

12:20

professor at Griffith University in Brisbane. But

12:23

his neighbourhood is elsewhere. And

12:33

you live in Malaysia. I live in Kuala Lumpur. Kuala

12:36

Lumpur? Kuala Lumpur. I think

12:38

it's five k's from the CBD,

12:40

but all around me is extraordinary

12:42

wildlife and biodiversity. I was not

12:45

expecting this. Kale has got lots

12:47

of original rainforest and recovering rubber

12:49

plantations. So much wildlife. And

12:52

I see things like woodpeckers on a daily

12:54

basis that's stunning. And I also see five

12:56

different species of minor, but it's all right.

12:58

I have trained myself to think these miners

13:01

belong here. So that's one of the things

13:03

I had to learn. Well, Indian

13:05

miners, noisy miners, once you said that

13:07

noisy miners are the best. You

13:09

know, these were miners, so the M-Y-N-A

13:11

version. So common or Indian miners are

13:14

all over the place. But

13:16

the commonest ones are Jarvan miners. They're everywhere.

13:18

And they're just as nasty and horrible, but they

13:21

belong there and they do their job. Any parrots?

13:23

No parrots. There are tiny parrots, but I... How can

13:26

you live without parrots? I know I have to go

13:28

off looking for them. And the only parrots

13:30

are these little hanging parrots and they're about as big as

13:32

a budgie. But there's plenty of other things to make up

13:34

for the parrots. Do you mean they hang? They

13:36

literally hang upside down and eat the seeds

13:38

that they like by hanging from the outermost

13:41

fringes of the limbs that they're walking around

13:43

on. Your latest book, beautiful

13:45

book about knowing your

13:47

neighbourhood birds. And

13:50

I must say, since moving to the country

13:52

more than actually living in a big city,

13:55

knowing who the neighbours are is so

13:57

important. It tells you so much about

13:59

your... precincts doesn't it? It really does. And

14:01

it also tells you how things are changing

14:04

because if you've been anywhere for a little amount of

14:06

time in a human environment you'll see

14:09

that it's continuously changing. Naturation of vegetation and

14:11

that's attracting different sets of birds. Different birds

14:13

will move in and then they will interact

14:15

with the other birds that are already there

14:18

and some will go and some will stay

14:20

and it's extraordinary. And I can't tell you

14:22

enough Robin how important and interesting urban ecology

14:25

is. It's really there. You're right

14:27

they're our neighbors that's what I'm trying to

14:29

get across. They're our neighbors they just

14:31

happen to have feathers and they treat us just like

14:33

neighbors as well. Well I keep telling

14:35

my partner who's in fact trained as a

14:37

vet and a huge experience in natural history

14:40

that the birds come to see me because they're very

14:42

fond of me and she tells me it's because I

14:44

feed them. You once gave me permission to feed them

14:46

when we did an interview. You're to blame in fact

14:48

aren't you? But I love it. I probably

14:50

am to blame but I think you probably said something

14:53

is it possible to feed these birds safely or something

14:55

along those lines? And I said yes of course Robin

14:57

of course as long as you do it properly and

14:59

not too much but I don't think you've

15:01

taken a notice of all the things that I said have you?

15:03

You're probably feeding a little bit more than you should I'm suspecting.

15:06

Well I just put it out there and they

15:08

can monitor and control their own diet. Dear listener

15:10

you can tell already that these birds have controlled

15:12

and they've trained Robin very well to supply exactly

15:15

what they need. But the good news is Robin

15:17

that although they seem to be at your place

15:19

all the time I'm suspecting that probably

15:21

between 60 and 70 percent of their diet is

15:23

all completely natural which is the main thing that

15:25

they do. As I keep saying it's a snack

15:27

when they come to visit us and take away

15:30

the food that we provide so it's snack. It's

15:32

a cappuccino Tim Tam and on their way they

15:34

go thankfully because we don't want it disrupt their

15:36

natural environment. I just want to ask about some

15:38

of the changes that have happened and one

15:41

thing that I'm grateful for

15:43

is the regulars they

15:45

don't turn up every day but they're the

15:47

king parrots and I am

15:50

absolutely astounded that they're all

15:53

so incredibly tame. They

15:55

demand they don't have just

15:57

the big dish that's there for the other birds.

16:00

They want the silver dish, which

16:03

I take out, and then the male

16:05

with its wonderful crimson top

16:09

hops onto my wrist without

16:11

hesitation and then

16:13

picks out the black seeds, because

16:16

it prefers that, and the wife, the female, who's

16:18

not there at the moment because I think she's

16:20

on the nest, does it on

16:22

the other side. And when they've

16:25

had about 15 minutes worth, they make

16:27

a squeak and fly off. But

16:29

how come they're so tame? I

16:32

suspect they already have relationships

16:34

with others all around the district. Probably lots

16:36

of people feed those beautiful birds because it's

16:39

very irresistible. In Queensland, they call them the

16:41

tomato salad bird because it looks like lettuce

16:43

and tomato, I suppose. And

16:46

exactly the same thing's happened in my home. They were

16:49

very rare visitors, but now they're regulars. And

16:51

they're one of the most discriminating of birds

16:53

when it comes to the seeds because I

16:55

always feed them. I've got a very elaborate,

16:58

secret recipe of my own design, but

17:00

it contains all sorts of things. But some of them, like

17:02

the rainbow orchids, will just eat everything and leave charred

17:04

remains behind. Whereas these guys

17:07

select often the smallest seeds.

17:09

I remember once there was a whole lot of seeds and I

17:11

thought they were just walking around among the

17:13

seeds on this flat platform that I use for my

17:16

feeder. And I realized they weren't even

17:18

taking the seed that I'd put there. The tree

17:20

above them, the eucalyptus tree above them had been

17:22

showering tiny little seed, eucalyptus seeds, which are tiny.

17:24

And they were putting their tongues on them and

17:26

taking them in preference to all

17:28

the beautiful, expensive seed that I provided for

17:30

them. So they're very discriminating. But that doesn't

17:33

surprise me because we now know that birds

17:35

have an incredible ability to know exactly what

17:37

they require in terms of dietary needs, depending

17:40

on part of the breeding season, especially the

17:42

females which might be making eggs or feeding

17:44

young or something like that. They have specific,

17:46

very detailed knowledge about what their bodies need

17:49

and are guided by that. You talk about

17:51

the change. Now one change, which I don't

17:53

comprehend and which worries me slightly, is

17:56

our family of magpies. Now

17:58

the male and the female The female

18:00

was called Floppy Wing because one of

18:03

her wings was hanging a bit loose.

18:05

She flew nonetheless pretty well. And

18:08

the male, they would come along

18:11

and teach their offspring when they're in

18:13

their teenage years that this is

18:15

where you come to. You go down there and it's perfectly

18:17

safe. And sometimes if there

18:19

was something a bit hard, they would do what

18:22

the crows would also talk their youngsters to do.

18:24

And that's put them in the water and swill

18:26

them around a bit. Now we

18:28

used to be having a breakfast

18:31

serenade. Instead of tapping

18:33

on the window, they would sing beautifully,

18:35

warbling as usual. I

18:37

haven't seen them now for something like

18:39

half a year. Where

18:41

do they go? How long do they live? They

18:44

live, we think, between 18 and about 25 years. So

18:47

they're fairly long-lived birds for passerines. But lots

18:49

of Australian birds are long-lived. Do you mean

18:51

that all the magpies have vanished altogether? Not

18:53

all of them. There is a new couple

18:55

who are turning up and they're a bit

18:57

flighty, but they're gradually becoming used to the

19:00

place. So it sounds like there's been a

19:02

turnover of the ownership of the territory. That's

19:04

probably what's happened. So maybe one of the

19:06

previous pair has died or something's happened to

19:08

them and they were unable to keep defending

19:10

their territory. And there's been a takeover. So

19:12

these new birds are probably a little bit

19:14

less, well, they will have a different relationship

19:16

to you. So that does happen

19:18

on occasions, but it might only be once every 10

19:20

or 20 years or something. But I think that's what's

19:22

happened. You know, you're a new owner is living in

19:25

and they're just getting used to you. As for the

19:27

self-accrested cockatoos, don't laugh. They're

19:31

not architects. They're the reverse, obviously. But

19:33

it's quite interesting. You mentioned that they

19:35

trained me and my partner,

19:37

she's saying that as well, because one

19:40

of them called Beaky, flies

19:42

up and perches on the handle

19:44

of the French windows and

19:46

taps on the glass and

19:49

looks through it. And this is

19:51

straight communication with an intelligent being looking

19:53

at a less intelligent being me. Yeah,

19:56

absolutely. And you come scurrying

19:58

along because. Oh, there they are.

20:01

I must do my, they're bidding right now.

20:03

So they have trained you very well, Robin,

20:05

and they get exactly what they're after. But

20:07

you see, they eat the food, which is

20:09

of course, biscuits, certain biscuits that they like.

20:12

And they don't take it away. They all

20:14

sit there in a row up on the

20:17

railing of the deck. And they all

20:19

eat the biscuit with their left foot.

20:21

Why the left foot is a hand?

20:23

Don't know. I don't think anybody really

20:26

knows why it's the left instead of the right,

20:28

but it's a thing that we now know at

20:31

least among the cockatoos, because not all paratroos, their

20:33

hands, their feet to hold things

20:35

with. The cockatoos certainly do. And it's 99

20:38

point something percent of them only use the left.

20:40

If you see a right-handed one, that's a very

20:42

rare experience. And I think you've probably seen one,

20:45

have you? Yes, it was just one I saw

20:47

last week, and that's the first one

20:49

ever. And I wonder whether they

20:51

get pressured into conforming to the left-handedness

20:53

like we were all taught to. The

20:55

ABC does in this broadcasting, you mean?

20:58

Exactly, yeah, that's right, exactly. But I

21:00

wonder whether the right-handers have treated any

21:03

way differently, because they certainly would notice.

21:05

They would certainly know that. Being the

21:07

season now, if you hear

21:09

a scratchy sound, what

21:12

we normally hear from the black

21:15

yellow-tailed cockatoos is

21:17

this wonderful, rather,

21:21

I don't mournful cry, but in the sky,

21:23

where they're flying at just below

21:26

stalling speed, they're huge

21:28

wings, but the rather more

21:30

raucous thing, we recognise

21:32

now as the youngsters on

21:35

a training run. And now, last week, I saw

21:37

two of them up a tree, just

21:39

sort of passing the time. But

21:42

on an early flight out with parents who are

21:44

training them how to do this, how

21:46

can such a big bird have such slow wing-begs

21:49

and not plummet to the ground? They're so big

21:51

and heavy, you think, you've got to be flapping

21:53

more often than that to stay upright. You know,

21:55

when you see how fast Rainbow Loracete's Flatter

21:57

their wings when they go screaming through the air.

22:00

It always wondered why they didn't crash

22:02

because I had have a stable and

22:04

but anyway they do the gorgeous and

22:06

that sound is just so evocative isn't

22:08

it? Is Montagnard out? Absolutely. This. and

22:11

as the thing that I signed really

22:13

fascinating. Even though we've got a tiny

22:15

place and front half of it points

22:17

out to him down below this this

22:20

the road and in that small public,

22:22

the best one is rather more protective.

22:24

and it's It's like the almost like

22:26

us a little English garden. and that's

22:29

world. The tiny. Birdsong in some kind of

22:31

you that knows him on his at the front

22:33

or anything like that. We have very

22:35

few. Mine is really says the mine

22:37

eyes turn up now and then been

22:39

and we got a few sparrows actually

22:42

turn up in front as well. This

22:44

is quite amazing for the best it's

22:46

he drinks territory right? Perfect has fitness

22:48

and tested cassette since his and and

22:50

probably fairy rings or a good indication

22:52

of whether you've actually got an intact

22:55

by diversity because they both really vulnerable

22:57

to the changes that we wrought upon

22:59

the landscape when we urbanize. So that's

23:01

good. Robin, you've got. have it. That's

23:03

a really. Good sign that you've got

23:06

some things going on. It's more of

23:08

the complete it's ecosystem that you have

23:10

you hope you can. Has his zoo

23:12

runs and silence and now that with

23:14

thought so many people he's found this.

23:16

talking about a book on breakfast on

23:19

their southern broadcasts is unstoppable. Isn't it

23:21

that you sound really that so many

23:23

stray lions are looking at? They want

23:25

loss like that is absolutely marvelous. Isn't

23:27

it A I'm I'm so thrilled It's

23:29

one of the reg good things that

23:32

came out of cove it because Disney

23:34

nights. interests but it did we didn't have

23:36

the opportunity i don't think to really take notice

23:38

of this but one of the things that happened

23:40

with have it would be or became local we

23:42

got to know a backyard or just as street

23:44

or maybe the little to pack of us the

23:47

road and we noticed that says tom it because

23:49

for all sorts of reasons that one of them

23:51

was a desperate hoping for something positive and the

23:53

birds we discovered with having carrying on a little

23:55

worried like we were about the tend to me

23:58

with the somebody who's gonna sneeze and union die.

24:00

I mean, we were generally had

24:02

no idea what was going to happen. It was a

24:04

very uncertain times, but the birds

24:06

kept going and they kept coming. And lots

24:08

of people have told me that isn't it

24:10

interesting during the COVID times, the birds came

24:12

to my backyard. Well, you know what, they

24:15

were already there. We were just too busy

24:17

and preoccupied to notice them. But yeah, as

24:19

a result of COVID, there's been a massive

24:21

increase, not just in Australia, but globally in

24:23

the local birds all around. And there's been evidence

24:25

like the pair of binoculars was difficult to find.

24:27

They were just caught up. Every pair of binoculars

24:30

was bought. The bird books were all bought

24:32

with a huge increase in interesting birds in

24:34

general. I'm just so grateful of that. And this

24:36

little book is trying to encourage that for

24:38

all those people that have maybe not been serious

24:41

about birds or just taking notice of the

24:43

right no more. That's what getting to know the

24:45

birds in your neighborhood is all about. And

24:47

it's a very beautiful book. And it's so different

24:49

from, you know, I've got a few obviously,

24:52

but you recognize immediately that this is different

24:54

and you're sitting its purpose. But

24:56

Darrell, tell me you've written so many, what more

24:59

is there to write about birds? Do you think?

25:02

I will be writing birdbirds while I have

25:04

breath, Robin. There's no doubt about that. I

25:06

don't want to tell you how many books

25:08

I've planned, but there's plenty of them. I've

25:10

got a lot more to say. Absolutely. Especially

25:12

about the birds that live among us in

25:14

the urban areas. That's an unknown field. There's

25:16

still completely extraordinary things to be discovered right

25:18

in your backyard. And that's why I'm really

25:20

hoping people will be taken interest in. And

25:23

do you think, you know, what I was starting to say in

25:26

terms of what might be their

25:28

interest in us, is

25:30

it really straight mercenary? Here

25:33

comes the food or do they like

25:35

our companionship as well? I

25:37

think they actually do enjoy our companionship. Lots of

25:39

the birds, especially the social ones, like

25:42

to treat us as members of their family or their

25:44

extended social groups. And that's the way they behave with

25:46

us. How many people listening to this

25:48

program melt when the

25:50

pair of resident magpies bring last

25:53

year's chicks in and introduce them? Just as

25:55

you described earlier, how here they are. Here

25:57

are the nice people that are looking after

25:59

us. they're providing food for us, you can do

26:01

the same thing when you grow up. If you learn

26:04

how to recognize a complete sucker when you see one

26:06

and you can train them easily just like we did,

26:08

you know, that's the sort of thing. So yes, now

26:10

we can have relationships with these birds. It's actually genuine

26:13

back and forth. I'm really pleased about that sort of

26:15

thing. Finally, what's the next book? It's

26:18

probably going to be a bit more serious, but it's

26:20

going to be an extension of the stories that I

26:22

started to tell in my memoir which came out last

26:24

year called Coolers on Vulture Street. It'll be more stories

26:27

from me, but perhaps with a bit more of an

26:29

edge. We have to face the fact, Robin,

26:31

we're in a crisis, many different crises that are

26:33

all coming together at the same time. So it's

26:35

going to have hope. It's subtitled. I don't know

26:37

what the actual title is yet, but the subtitle

26:39

will be something like Stories of

26:41

Hope from the Anthropocene. Darryl

27:00

Jones at Griffith University in Brisbane, though he

27:02

lives in Kuala Lumpur. His

27:04

book is Getting to Know the Birds

27:06

in Your Neighbourhood. It's terrific. Jo

27:29

Chandler Jo

27:34

Chandler is one of our top

27:36

writers and reporters on science. She's

27:38

won a Eureka prize for journalism

27:41

and appeared many times in ABC

27:43

programmes. She specialises in being out

27:45

there, where lots is happening, be

27:47

it in Antarctica or in

27:49

the programme today in The heat

27:51

of Papua New Guinea. That's where

27:53

science is also proving vital for

27:56

nature and survival. Hello

28:09

Png! Abandoned with food. Sources

28:11

we know: fifty. I'm

28:25

on the road running a stat of Go Roka in

28:27

the highlands of Up A New Guinea. Like

28:30

so many of these countries rides, this

28:32

one is fairly past. Winter

28:35

of mine for his lips strike free

28:37

beers. They grunts and I loose in

28:39

my bones to roll with it as

28:42

I've learned to do. This.

28:45

Trip has been months in the planning,

28:47

but a cancelled fly out of most

28:49

be very nearly blew it all to

28:51

bits. Yet here I am. Writing. Shotgun

28:54

with the Man ofcom. So sad

28:56

to see David Cullen bow. He's

28:58

working the gays hard as he

29:00

keeps up a running commentary on

29:02

the conditions unfolding around Six Route.

29:05

Would always have to. The big was have this.

29:07

Said is Low Water, the Tmz

29:09

highlands of history and imagination and

29:12

green. And last. Today,

29:14

this record landscape is past

29:17

and pale. It's mid September

29:19

twenty twenty two and the

29:21

rainy season is a good

29:23

month overdue as the last

29:25

several months dry weather old

29:28

I believe will fix all

29:30

right Half on their oddly

29:32

we cannot stand any food

29:34

at all. Clouds of smoke

29:36

settle. In the folds between the dragon

29:39

takes. As that crop

29:41

style people a burning the bush he.

29:43

Had to plant more food and

29:45

to clear space to build houses

29:47

for their children and grandchildren. He

29:49

was a all right Publicly. And

29:52

see it was outside. Often when

29:54

we think about climate impacts in

29:56

the Pacific, we think about. People

29:58

losing their homes to sea level. Rise

30:00

That. Way up here, some

30:03

sixteen hundred meters above sea level.

30:05

Communities are just as. Well as

30:07

the season ceased and their crops

30:10

wills. With. Fertile soils and

30:12

cent of all the lab or rains

30:14

people in these parts haven't historically really

30:16

have to worry so much. About

30:19

preserving food. But it's

30:21

a different story now. Most people living

30:23

in up when he would you don't

30:25

have Freed said who. Blows

30:27

we don't have water supply or power

30:29

supplies to have. Freaking out. The

30:32

only. Would you

30:34

always get. Out

30:36

of his that he planned

30:39

it highly dependent. David,

30:41

in his, was an agricultural specialist

30:44

and with the support of a

30:46

handful of Australians and Kiwi scientists

30:49

and a drip feed of grants,

30:51

they've spent thirty years. Working

30:53

in villages right across the highlands,

30:55

teaching people how to get the

30:58

most out of they Sudan's. In

31:00

a drought like the one I'm witnessing, this

31:02

is a question. Of survival we are

31:05

going to look at my ward

31:07

on my garden and all. I

31:10

used to help communities.

31:14

David knows all too well what

31:16

is coming. He witnessed

31:18

the catastrophic Ninety Ninety Seven Ninety

31:20

Eight El Nino when froths and

31:23

drought less nearly forty percent of

31:25

rural villages suffering. Extreme food

31:27

shortages. Painting

31:30

Twenty sustained sixteen. It

31:32

came again, leaving a death toll

31:34

presumed in the thousands. The.

31:37

Alarm was sounded early by. Expense that

31:39

the response to that crosses

31:41

notably from Australia was later

31:43

damned, is too little too

31:45

late. David

31:48

Smith is all about bringing together

31:50

indigenous knowledge and light a science

31:53

to prepare communities for the knicks

31:55

el nino. there

31:57

we're coming through the place we're

32:00

going to stay and my hair here now. David

32:05

and Anna's garden materialises

32:07

like a lush oasis.

32:10

The air pulses with brilliant

32:13

blue flashes of the swallowtail

32:15

butterfly Papilio Ulysses. And

32:18

there's a welcome party waiting. Great to meet

32:20

you. Are you all students?

32:24

Yeah. Okay. The students

32:26

have come along to look at David and Anna's enterprise

32:28

with their lecturer, Dr Lily Saar. She's

32:32

a science communication specialist whose

32:34

focus is on social change

32:36

and sustainability. In practice,

32:38

she operates as a kind of

32:40

conduit connecting villages, scientists,

32:43

policymakers and leaders to

32:45

tackle issues like food

32:47

security, poverty and inevitably

32:49

changing climate. I'm

32:52

Lily, here Lily Saar. I'm

32:54

with the University of Europa. I

32:56

work with farmers, seeing how

32:58

best knowledge from research centres

33:00

can be incorporated with their

33:02

own local knowledge so

33:04

that they have food to eat, there is food

33:07

and nutritional security being addressed. But

33:09

at the same time, they have income, income

33:12

for other things like medicine and services.

33:15

Lily works with David and Anna

33:17

in a program supported by the

33:19

Australian Centre for Agricultural Research. She

33:22

says that David's played a really big role

33:25

in teaching people how to grow their crops

33:27

and care for their livestock sustainably.

33:30

People, mostly women, come to this garden

33:32

every day to learn and there are

33:35

half a dozen here today. David has

33:37

got this place all planned. He's got

33:39

things here that will still grow, sun

33:42

or rain. Nothing's growing without a

33:44

reason. What

33:46

they learn here isn't just about growing food

33:49

in a changing climate. They're

33:51

also learning techniques to safely preserve

33:53

food that will sustain them through

33:55

long periods of drought when they

33:57

lose, not just their kitchen supplies.

34:00

At. The incomes as well. It's

34:02

usually that a lot of people don't

34:04

dry food business in Png we things

34:06

that we have the soil, we have

34:09

the weather and it'll we just have

34:11

abundance. This really no need to dry

34:13

food but David of honor have learned

34:15

you have to preserve food four times

34:18

when you're not able to grow is

34:20

not a big space is like a

34:22

backup that. But. Because of

34:24

how the garden they've actually been. Able

34:27

to have what you can see now

34:29

and. Okay, so let me

34:31

try to described. As Cornucopia.

34:34

Their a half a dozen varieties

34:36

of veins and yams and of

34:38

course as Cao Cao sweet potato

34:40

the staple food of two thirds

34:42

of company Kenyans. There are also

34:44

a couple of the new drought

34:46

resistant varieties here. And then there's

34:48

breadfruit, forest figs, and quite a

34:51

few things. I don't really

34:53

recognize said. His mans healing away

34:55

the leaves and and so it looks like

34:57

a spring out. How long bottle? Yeah for

34:59

lemongrass? Yeah. We

35:02

did business with this. Have

35:04

to say. Oh

35:08

it's really good would be. Good

35:10

for things up for up on

35:12

the I K, there are some more

35:15

familiar specimens, but they're grown with skills

35:17

that rather put my best backyard

35:19

efforts to same. And lastly, I think

35:21

I recognize that some. Ah, Sorry about

35:24

that. Yes, I bought one of

35:26

these one to Master Model and

35:28

I'm a good. And then

35:30

I mechanism. using. Only

35:32

one from model seat and he was

35:34

a lot of them growing and I

35:36

will have more than what I have

35:38

planted. Tomatoes are very good for selling

35:40

in the market. And get bits

35:42

and pieces of money for the family support

35:45

and you've generated that all from one one

35:47

teen at Milan one one was seen of

35:49

the month of size several. Years of

35:51

Harvest an income out of a

35:53

forty cents investment. And

35:55

then there are the indigenous plants gathered

35:58

from the forests. That someone the. pandana.

36:01

The leaves are used for mats

36:03

for people to sit and sleep on. The

36:06

seed or the nut is used

36:08

for traditional cooking. Such

36:11

times like this, this is what keeps

36:13

people going because it doesn't

36:15

go bad. They beat it up, they dry, they

36:17

keep it. That's what keeps the village people

36:19

going. So the indigenous crops

36:21

hold up very well, some of

36:23

them. David's wife and collaborator Anna is

36:26

explaining her techniques for storing some

36:28

of what's grown here. Lily helps out

36:31

with the translation. This

36:36

seed corn, her corn seeds

36:38

she preserved, she can actually

36:40

dry them. They stay

36:42

for a long time, can stay

36:44

more than one day if it's dried well. She

36:47

takes it when she wants to prepare a meal, puts

36:49

it in water, soaks it so

36:52

it gets softer for them to eat. David

36:55

jumps in to walk us through

36:57

the painstaking steps for preserving another

36:59

vital crop, cassava. I

37:02

know cassava pretty well from reporting in

37:04

Africa where it can be found sprouting

37:07

from the driest and poorest of soils

37:09

right across the sub-sahara. Cassava

37:11

is critical to global food

37:14

security. It feeds an

37:16

estimated 1 billion people across

37:18

Africa, Latin America, Asia and

37:20

the Pacific. The water boils up very

37:23

fast and then we dip it

37:25

into the hot water and then

37:27

after three minutes take it out of the

37:29

pot and then we put it out for

37:31

dry. Because of its tolerance of

37:34

high temperatures and drought, cassava is

37:36

expected to become even more critical

37:38

as global heating accelerates.

37:41

But it comes with a catch. If it's

37:44

not processed carefully, it can

37:46

be toxic. There's a clue

37:48

in the whiff of marzipan almonds that

37:50

you might catch, cutting into the flesh of

37:53

the tuber. Yes, that's

37:55

cyanide. that

38:00

sound it means that it is

38:02

well dried and we keep this

38:04

one for three, four, five years they can

38:06

be there. Ah. Yeah. That

38:09

one is ten years old. Ten years old. Yeah.

38:12

Okay. they

38:15

look like chips, potato chips. There's

38:17

dried thin slices of cassava plant.

38:20

Okay. That's a wild

38:22

breadfruit over there, the green leaf and

38:25

that's the tree up there you can see. Okay.

38:28

And then the hot weather like this where

38:30

everything is dry that can go dry. So

38:33

they go back to the bush to bring it as long

38:35

as the forest is still there. And that's the catch.

38:38

That's the catch. Okay. Papua

38:41

New Guinea's forests are vanishing. Since

38:46

2000 it's lost about 1.2

38:48

million hectares of tree cover.

38:50

In some places, especially around

38:53

the coast, whole forests are

38:55

being stolen by illegal loggers

38:58

and they're cleared for oil palm plantations

39:00

and for mining projects. But

39:03

here in the Biena district, mostly

39:05

the trees are cut and burned to

39:07

feed and house the growing population. Lily

39:10

and David work constantly urging people

39:12

to preserve these precious forests. We

39:15

still go back to the forests because

39:17

when the cultivated crops are

39:19

dry the forests are there

39:22

and it's so important to maintain those

39:24

forests because that's the food source

39:27

for people here. But the forests are

39:30

still owned by people. So

39:32

if the landowners preserve the

39:34

forest they can have a

39:36

lot of these forest foods to eat from in

39:39

times like this. So you see they

39:41

keep referring to their forest food. It's

39:44

still the storehouse of food. And

39:47

yet I imagine here as in all over

39:49

Papua New Guinea people that

39:51

are in need can often be under

39:53

pressure to sell their forests to loggers and

39:56

that storehouse is then gone forever. Exactly.

39:58

Population increased. There's pressure on

40:01

the land, so people are

40:03

selling their natural resources that will look

40:05

after them when it's extreme

40:07

climatic conditions like this, like what we're experiencing

40:09

in Bena now. They have the forest, they

40:11

go back to it, but you can see

40:13

on the hills now, it's grassland. David

40:18

and Anna take me on a tour around their

40:20

little plot of land, and it's time

40:22

to meet some of the livestock. Our

40:25

first stop is a wooden pen

40:27

with a pink snout, expectantly poking

40:29

over the top rungs. We bought

40:31

this small piglet with 200 tinnies,

40:34

and when it grows bigger, we

40:36

can kill for our sun graduations.

40:39

When does your sun graduate? At the end

40:41

of three years time. Three years time. Yeah.

40:44

Alright Piggy, you've got three years, enjoy

40:47

them. And now, the rabbit house. Hello.

40:50

Hello. So there's one,

40:53

two, three, four. David

40:55

has bred rabbits for decades for meat

40:57

and for the market. Today

41:00

there are just two cherished breeding pairs

41:02

left in the hutch, huge white bunnies

41:04

that snuggle into his arms as he

41:06

gently strokes their long ears. At

41:09

the moment, I haven't done any

41:11

breeding due to climate changes, and

41:13

there's not enough heat for me to feed

41:15

the rabbit. Oh, okay. So when

41:17

it is rain, I will make sure to breed

41:20

more. One big thing about

41:22

rabbit is to collect manure and

41:25

put them in the garden. This is

41:27

all part of the integrated

41:29

sustainable farming methodology that's

41:32

at the heart of the work David and

41:34

Anna do with their little NGO, which

41:36

is called the Community Development Workers

41:39

Association. I encourage

41:41

my farmers, women farmers especially,

41:44

not to apply any chemical into

41:46

their garden. I only

41:48

tell them to use manure, like

41:51

rabbit manure, pig manure, goat

41:53

manure, chicken manure, because

41:56

they produce the

41:58

sustainability of the land. for

42:00

a long time. So it's healthier for the

42:02

soil and for the people, but also it doesn't

42:04

cost you anything. Yes, it doesn't cost me

42:07

anything at all, because I collected

42:09

from my own animals the increasing

42:11

of the price of all the chemicals

42:14

in the store is too expensive.

42:17

So we want to encourage our villagers and

42:19

the farmers to make use of animal manure

42:21

which they have in the village. So

42:24

a lot of work that we've

42:26

done in integrating the indigenous

42:28

know-how of how farming's been

42:30

done, David has really

42:32

played a big role in it. Look

42:36

at how people are still able

42:38

to work without expensive fertilisers, that

42:40

you can still have a sustainable practice.

42:42

You can still have an integrated system

42:45

of agriculture where you have animals

42:47

and crops. But

42:50

as resourceful and thrifty as David

42:52

and Anna are, their best efforts

42:54

won't be enough as future droughts

42:56

become longer and harsher. Another

43:00

devastating El Nino event is

43:02

inevitable, their natural phenomenon.

43:05

But in a climate-changed world, they

43:07

occur more frequently and become more

43:09

intense. With

43:12

Lily's help, the couple tries to

43:14

start conversations on the ground here

43:17

around setting up irrigation systems. But

43:20

it's a difficult and sometimes

43:22

dangerous conversation. Irrigation

43:24

is a big issue around here. If

43:27

irrigation pipes are done and it's lying

43:29

across different people's land, we have issues.

43:32

That project's been looking at what's the best way

43:34

to still grow the crop

43:37

using the water that's available. And

43:39

you use the term social issues as

43:41

a result, but let's talk turkey. This

43:43

is about conflict and potentially really

43:46

bad conflict between people because

43:48

of their desperation. Exactly.

43:50

Because if you have the

43:52

irrigation system across two different

43:54

landowners, both have to agree. If

43:58

not, one will get a lot of money. and

44:00

damage the pipes. So

44:02

those further down don't have any water. So there are social

44:05

issues to deal with. Right

44:08

across PNG, from the coast to the

44:10

highlands, the impacts of

44:12

climate change are already playing

44:14

out. Communities have

44:16

initiated out of urgent necessity

44:18

their own responses. This

44:21

is a formidable task when some

44:23

87% of the population live

44:25

on ancestral, customary land and

44:28

rely on fishing, porticulture and hunting

44:31

for subsistence and for inking. There

44:34

are no easements to run services like

44:36

irrigation pipes over customary land. As

44:39

conditions become desperate, the question of

44:41

who gets access to water and

44:43

how will be defining.

44:46

Tanks will not last. You need

44:48

an irrigation system. The

44:51

irrigation system comes with responsibility. What

44:53

do you do with the number of people who land

44:56

the pipes or line across? How are you going to

44:58

pay them? What are you going to do with them?

45:01

So the farmers we've been working with in the

45:03

project, that's been the main issue. The

45:06

idea now is for those who have land and

45:08

are part of the project, can we

45:11

do a well so

45:13

that the pipes are not lined across different lands. And

45:16

this is where Lily is pushing for the

45:18

government and policy makers to step

45:20

up to start thinking about how

45:23

they can work with highland communities

45:25

to transition to a reality very

45:27

different from the one their tambuna,

45:29

their ancestors knew. They're resilient people.

45:32

These people work. They work. And

45:35

they're surviving, but it would make

45:37

a lot of difference if the

45:39

provincial, national policy makers see

45:42

what they can do with water. Water is

45:45

the biggest issue. They'll grow anything. That's their

45:47

land. They'll grow. They know how to farm. Give

45:49

them the water. In

45:52

the year since my visit, David has

45:54

sent me regular updates, including

45:57

detailed daily readings from his

45:59

rain gauge. The drought

46:01

I saw has eased off for a while

46:04

but now things are dry again and from

46:07

all over PNG reports are coming in.

46:10

There's an El Nino brewing and

46:12

it's biting already. Around

46:14

Garoque people are planting drought resistant

46:16

crops and they're buying rice. The

46:20

impacts of drought in these communities

46:22

are profound. It's not

46:24

just about the loss of

46:26

crops, hunger and malnutrition without

46:29

enough water to wash, diseases

46:31

spread. Girls are pulled

46:34

out of class to find and carry

46:36

water over long distances, schools

46:39

close and so do the health

46:41

facilities. Is

46:43

this the next big one? The

46:45

warnings from the scientific consensus are

46:48

unequivocal. These cycles will

46:50

become more frequent and more ferocious.

46:53

Preparing for this reality has

46:55

to be about more than

46:57

emergency responses when the situation

46:59

spirals into a recognised

47:02

disaster. It has to support

47:04

and empower local ownership and

47:06

local leadership of programs that

47:08

can prevent the worst-case scenarios

47:10

playing out. Land

47:14

is important and David always ensures that

47:16

he pushes that. That you've got to

47:18

look after the land because the land

47:20

is your life. And

47:22

so all that he's doing here

47:24

and all the work is done,

47:26

that's all to do with protecting the

47:28

land, you protect the land and look after

47:31

you, your production of whatever

47:33

food you're growing will increase. People

47:36

can learn better the

47:38

new techniques of maybe application

47:40

fertilizers and all, how they

47:43

could learn better from research

47:45

and then also use the indigenous methods

47:48

that are going to be helping them

47:50

through this very difficult time. That

48:04

report in Papua New Guinea was by

48:07

Joe Chandler, a production by Shelby Tranor,

48:09

a reminder like several features on our

48:11

end from the Pacific on how much

48:14

science is being applied there and how

48:16

many deep problems there are to solve

48:19

urgently. The same

48:21

applies in different ways at the University

48:23

of Sydney, itself a vast ecosystem where

48:25

science needs to be applied. Meet

48:28

Eliza Middleton, who is the

48:30

biodiversity officer at the University.

48:32

Yes, there is one, and she's

48:35

an ecologist, and I'm thinking of

48:37

our science show Top 100 Scientists.

48:40

I asked her a tricky question about

48:42

perhaps a forgotten hero. I

48:45

was told by someone at Stanford

48:47

University that Dr. Charles Birch from

48:50

the University of Sydney invented the

48:52

field of ecology. That's amazing,

48:54

and I would not be surprised. Paul

48:57

Ehrlich is his name in Stanford, and

48:59

Charles Birch was an absolute genius. So

49:01

now you're patrolling the

49:04

University, that's the big campus

49:06

presumably, plus outlying areas as

49:08

well. How much district are

49:10

you really in charge of

49:13

to monitor? So

49:15

I'm tasked with, I guess, biodiversity

49:17

generally across all of our own

49:19

locations and all of our least

49:21

locations. In least locations there are

49:23

a lot of our clinical schools

49:25

that we have in various locations

49:27

like Bathurst and Dubbo. Because

49:30

they're least, it's acting with influence. But

49:32

the places that we own, we have

49:34

a number of farms, field science and

49:36

campuses. With the farmland, we're just under

49:39

12,000 hectares of land that we own,

49:41

and that's down from near Marulan all

49:43

the way out to Narawran, Gunnedah.

49:46

Let me do a thought experiment. Being a

49:48

university, a leading university in the

49:50

world, everyone would know

49:52

what to do and behave appropriately. Is this

49:55

true or not? Wow. I

49:57

mean, with the slogan of Leadership for Good, you...

50:00

would hope so and I think there

50:02

is definitely a want to do it

50:04

but I think it's also becoming very

50:06

apparent that there are a lot of

50:08

difficulties. One of the difficulties being that

50:10

the corporate side of the university business

50:14

doesn't have the appreciation at needs of what is

50:16

needed for the ecology of this work to be

50:18

done so the kind of resourcing and staffing and

50:20

funding you need to be able to do the

50:22

kind of work that I'm trying to do for

50:25

them. Yes I know there's

50:27

one organization which I won't know and

50:30

when I go in there during

50:32

the weekend for example all

50:35

the lights are on and they're

50:37

espousing in some sort of environmentally

50:39

responsible policy. They just

50:41

don't notice some things. It's incredible

50:44

isn't it? It is and

50:46

this is one of the big things for

50:48

my industry so because where I'm working is

50:50

in biodiversity and nature and the story of

50:52

biodiversity and nature and the loss of biodiversity

50:54

and nature has really lagged behind climate change

50:56

but they're two sides of the same coin

50:58

so what I'm trying to do is really

51:01

get corporate head honchos that sit up in

51:03

that thin air to understand where

51:05

their dependencies on nature are, where their interface

51:07

is with it and what their risks are

51:09

to their business if they don't change the

51:11

way that they're behaving on the

51:14

land that they own but also all of

51:16

the supply chains and where they interact with

51:18

the environment generally. Are they listening

51:20

seriously? Is

51:23

that a long pregnant pause? Not yet. Yes

51:26

indeed well that's the problem. We know what to

51:28

do but we can't actually do it yet. We

51:31

have all of the expertise, we have

51:33

all of these brilliant scientists, we need

51:36

less conferences, we need more accountability. Well

51:38

what are the conferences that don't result

51:41

in action? I think the

51:43

thing with conferences is that they're fantastic but often

51:45

you find yourself in a room talking to people

51:47

that already agree with you. You're in your own

51:49

echo chamber of saying we need to change things,

51:52

we need to change things and we've been doing

51:54

that for 20, 30, 40 years on

51:56

climate change and we've been doing

51:58

that for many many years with biodiversity. loss and

52:00

nature loss, what we need now

52:02

is to be holding people accountable. We need

52:05

action and part of that action I think

52:07

is what my work has been which is

52:09

that translation of this is what the ecology

52:11

means in your business.

52:14

And you'll be punished if you do something wrong.

52:16

Not by me. No

52:18

I know but that's what they're worried about. Yes

52:21

and that is coming we've just had

52:23

the recommendations come from the task force

52:25

on nature-based financial disclosures and

52:27

those are going to be mandatory from the government

52:29

within two to three years. So legislation

52:31

is coming. Thank you Eliza. Thank

52:34

you. Eliza Middleton another

52:36

superstar of STEM. She's biodiversity officer

52:38

at the University of Sydney. I

52:41

wonder how many corporations had such an important

52:43

member of staff and yes

52:45

Charles Birch another of my top

52:47

100 is worth looking up.

52:49

A brilliant man and very much missed.

52:52

Next week I shall talk to

52:55

Gail McCollum in Hobart about Australia's

52:57

excellent science magazine Cosmos which

52:59

has just published its 100th edition

53:02

and also from Hobart professor Campbell

53:04

Middleton now a professor of infrastructure

53:07

at the University of Cambridge. Production

53:09

by David Fisher. I'm Robin

53:11

Williams. I'm

53:26

Gail McCollum. You've

53:59

been listening. listening to an ABC podcast.

54:01

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