0:10

alright how long horton how are

0:12

going to record the literary in a who

0:14

editorial director of anti war dot com author of the book

0:18

kr and and the war in afghanistan

0:21

and a brand new enough already signed

0:24

and the war on terror never

0:26

caught him with a five thousand five hundred and

0:28

is he he he thousand and three

0:30

almost all on foreign policy and

0:32

all available for you

0:38

whole you are kind is available at t dot com last sat

0:45

are you guys introducing matthew

0:48

a can see to freelance reporter but who also

0:50

were writes pretty regularly for the new york

0:52

times and if you read for

0:54

their and you know i cited him about

0:56

the election in two thousand and fourteen or

0:59

he in a non goebel wrote for harper's all about

1:01

what a disaster it was in

1:03

also do that great report where snuck

1:05

in who are yemen back

1:08

during the beginning of the yemen war and reported

1:10

from the sata province and all that remember

1:12

right reporter

1:14

the end i got a new book out the

1:16

called the naked don't fear

1:18

the water an underground journey

1:21

with afghan refugees the

1:23

got is really important piece in the new york

1:26

times the taliban's dangerous

1:28

collision course with the west welcome

1:30

back to so matthew items

1:32

great thanks round

1:34

the idea ah list so first

1:36

of all i gotta pause i see i've not read book another

1:38

know when i'm gonna find the time more caught up with russia

1:40

stuff here but i'd like to hear very

1:43

much very much would

1:45

like to hear about your book the naked

1:47

don't fear the water first call would have

1:49

that title mean jari

1:52

proverb in afghanistan luge

1:54

as of nematodes saddened that means

1:57

if you got nothing to lose you got nothing

1:59

to see

1:59

there at that is the situation

2:02

of the refugees from afghanistan

2:04

other countries that this book is about

2:07

the

2:08

though

2:09

the now for take us back august i'm

2:11

curious about the refugee crisis

2:13

here in the whale this played out because american

2:16

been at war in the middle east since the turn century

2:19

then of course

2:21

you had the arab spring break out in the words you know first

2:24

afghanistan iraq but then libya and syria

2:26

and the rat it seems like the and and

2:28

they've really started two thousand and eleven they

2:31

seemed like the refugee crisis from

2:33

all of these countries really seem

2:35

to hit right a two thousand and fifteen

2:37

and two thousand and sixteen sooner

2:39

you start with this is really the explanation

2:42

for that

2:44

live you know i'd been covering these wars

2:47

for years and i'd seen all the people

2:49

displaced first is either own country and

2:51

then we going across borders neighboring

2:53

countries which is easy were refugees first

2:55

go to , like turkey

2:58

or egypt and

3:01

what happened was essentially have been described

3:03

not refugee crisis but a crisis of the european

3:06

borders system so what european

3:08

done is it had made deals with all

3:10

these strong men and dictators that surrounded

3:13

the continent people like gaddafi

3:16

in libya or husni move iraq in

3:18

egypt and

3:20

they were the ones that were keeping people out

3:22

there were europe's kiki keepers they were toppled

3:25

by the arab spring so that's

3:27

has to begin to break down people started across in

3:29

turkey was that aired of on that the

3:31

strong man was having

3:34

problems with europe and the

3:36

tired of hosting millions of syrian refugees

3:38

so people started to

3:40

flooded the europe over

3:42

a period of about a year starting summer

3:44

twenty fifteen a

3:46

million people cross the mediterranean

3:49

sea and entered the european union is

3:51

the largest new that of refugees by

3:53

see in history and this is the moment

3:55

the i was in kabul and

3:58

one of my best friend their omar the

4:00

translator we'd work together he'd also

4:02

worked for the american military military

4:04

his translator he'd been for special forces

4:07

and he applied for one special immigrant

4:09

visas were you know the us

4:12

government allows iraqis and afghans

4:14

were in danger to come to us and he should

4:17

have gotten it but didn't because of paperwork he was

4:19

rejected and so she

4:21

decided to rescue

4:23

life the all

4:25

the refugee to europe in the

4:27

hopes a safe haven and

4:29

i want to report on this crisis from

4:32

the inside and go with him but

4:34

the only way i could do that given the risk

4:36

of being arrested or kidnapped

4:39

was to go undercover as an afghan

4:41

refugee myself which i was able

4:44

to do because even though not afghan i can look

4:46

afghan and i speak the language

4:48

so we traveled together

4:51

through the mountains and deserts with smugglers and that

4:53

is a story at the heart of the spock amazing

4:56

and so

4:57

now

4:58

i'm just curious i and i know we can go through the

5:00

whole thing about you guys went

5:02

north of the caspian sea or

5:05

you went somehow through iran

5:07

and iraq and turkey and syria and

5:09

through that room

5:10

yeah we'll the the main route

5:12

that we followed and there was a few twists

5:14

and turns joel get into here but the main

5:16

route the har route overland

5:18

goes from , southwestern

5:21

corner of afghanistan nimrod

5:24

through the deserts and actually migrants actually

5:26

dip down through through

5:30

and and into iran in this is the same route the blood

5:32

of opium goes by the way and they

5:34

cross iran and they go over

5:36

the zoc gross mountains in turkey all

5:40

the for smugglers illegally hiding

5:42

for the police you know at risk getting shot a kidnapped

5:44

or and then they cross turkey

5:46

the arrive in istanbul with the map they got

5:49

a community of migrants afghan

5:51

syrians you know after syrians

5:53

afghans the second largest of nationality

5:56

the cross new european a crisis from

5:58

there they can get on little rubber boats

6:01

and cross to the greek islands

6:04

and land on the sure i'm sure

6:06

you've all seen those images

6:08

of people coming ashore women

6:10

children on the beaches and then from

6:12

there they go to greece and

6:15

the route continues up through the balkans and

6:18

into your most people are trying to get to places

6:20

like germany or sweden or even

6:22

or the uk

6:25

well and no not yet you

6:27

foreign it is to buy boy did

6:29

all of this provoke the

6:31

massive reaction to the right

6:33

in europe and in america and

6:35

all over the place and probably you know

6:37

you can attribute breaks it and donald trump

6:40

in a lot more you know a lot of brigadier

6:43

types being elected to the european parliament

6:45

and all that can be you know all that

6:48

sort of reaction

6:49

do a lot of it

6:51

and

6:52

as he said

6:54

the

6:54

at least in the cases of ah

6:57

syria and libya it

6:59

was the americans who overthrew the

7:02

bottle cap on the refugees right

7:05

arm and allowed them to all come through at

7:07

the same time the day were creating all these

7:09

refugees with their violent wars

7:12

in afghanistan iraq

7:14

libya and the dirty war in syria which still

7:17

counts the crucified what's

7:19

the war started assad only had control over

7:21

the with west of his country and the east

7:23

was just been a free firestone there for

7:25

years so it

7:28

all of this was made in washington dc

7:30

really and the europeans were either in

7:32

on it or at least stood out of the way

7:36

cool yeah that these wars rock

7:38

and acted in in one way or another to

7:40

the war on terror and and other you

7:43

know imperialist

7:46

wars abroad but at the

7:48

end the day it's it's a much bigger problem

7:51

than just those wars is linked to

7:53

the tremendous disparity that exists

7:55

between the global north in the global south

7:58

you know you have people who are living very

8:00

desperate situations are facing corruption

8:03

grinding poverty ecological disaster

8:06

in a long as there's ,

8:08

a stark difference in income

8:11

and wealth between the

8:13

north and south people going to be making his journeys

8:15

and you're in have brutality the border them

8:17

to keep them out

8:18

there

8:19

though

8:21

gigantic explosions going

8:23

off all around you it's a real

8:25

kick in the but to get up and move compared

8:28

to just being poor which is

8:30

you know the typical condition of humanity

8:32

up until recently here so

8:35

yeah

8:36

whatever presented as it's a lot more

8:38

when it's wartime

8:40

you know it's this brings up a question i know

8:42

it's just sort of a fantasy thinking but the

8:44

the taliban is right back where

8:46

they started when we

8:49

overthrown twenty years ago as

8:51

you've written about here i

8:54

wonder what you think about if

8:56

you do think about the way i do

8:59

they were if they had really just targeted

9:01

bin laden and zawahiri it's horrible or or

9:03

hell even deliberately let them go but just

9:06

left the taliban alone and

9:08

not don't a regime change in kabul and

9:10

instead essentially just treated

9:13

them with decent respect nothing

9:15

special then just spent twenty

9:17

years

9:18

the night

9:20

maybe ridicule and on where they need been ridiculed

9:22

and help him out where they can you

9:25

know i'm not saying put him put afghanistan

9:27

completely on the american dollar forever or whatever

9:30

but what if we had just tried

9:33

to leave them with the light of liberty

9:35

and not the light of a laser designated

9:38

the last generation how

9:40

much better have a place would we be and

9:42

now in the place where we are which is

9:45

right back where we started only with a few

9:47

hundred thousand extra dead people

9:50

i think it's hard to make a case of that we can

9:52

be much worse off than we are now which is

9:54

exactly what the towel then back in power

9:57

with a leader of al qaeda

9:59

the

9:59

recently in kabul you know it's got taken out

10:02

by a drone strike so what

10:04

, those twenty years accomplished besides

10:07

a lot of death and destruction and radicalization

10:10

out there were a lot of games that were made

10:13

made rebuild their country but but

10:15

maybe they would have found a way to do it under

10:18

the taliban as well as it it's

10:20

well it's it really artist to you can counterfactual

10:22

the war was misguided

10:26

in the very least from the beginning and

10:28

the way that it developed such a boondoggle

10:32

evolving , much corruption i'm

10:35

a lot of the seat on the on a part

10:37

of our military and our government leaders one

10:40

that inflict that massive tall up the

10:43

only overseas you don't these countries which

10:45

bore the brunt of the suffering but also at home

10:47

you know the so many broken families

10:51

and and shatter lives in america

10:53

and i i just think that it should give us

10:55

some real skepticism about even

10:58

the best intentioned overseas intervention

11:02

you know you tube for ever has

11:04

pulled up in the margin the

11:07

video clip of a marine talking about

11:09

his time in vietnam he may seen it i

11:11

don't know the algorithm just for years

11:13

is one is so to me but for fifteen minutes long

11:15

and i just never had to pull fifteen

11:17

i just didn't click on it for years i

11:20

finally with sit net the hotel doing nothing

11:22

you tube served it up for me and the margin again

11:24

i said fine i sit there watching that sounds

11:26

like you talking about afghanistan a little

11:28

bit more brutal

11:30

okay lot bit more brutal but still the same

11:32

story about

11:34

you know we're protecting the south from the north in

11:36

the case afghanistan were protecting the north from

11:38

the set up and leave again have enough

11:40

of an hour both one country that

11:43

we're talking about here is is completely artificial

11:45

designation and the people that were supposed to be

11:47

helping

11:48

well we're killing them

11:50

they have the will we hate our guts and

11:52

when i got there i thought straight i'm

11:54

going to be greeted like a liberator animal to help

11:56

these poor people and fight off the bad

11:59

guy enemy and

12:00

boy, did i quip believing that after

12:02

just a a few and this and that and just, anyway, listening

12:05

to the guy going, it sounds like he's described in the exact

12:07

same

12:08

yeah, the fact, the matter

12:11

is that the same system that produced the vietnam

12:13

war was still in place in

12:15

a when nine eleven happened say military

12:18

industrial complex the same kind of ah

12:20

national security state and

12:22

so it's not surprising that we make the same

12:25

errors again and again

12:27

i'm your it so

12:30

no a me ask about the great depression

12:33

in afghanistan now because you

12:35

know you mention the corruption there and and all

12:38

the foreign money coming in it was forty

12:41

billion a year i think was the average right

12:43

leading up to the end of the war and the now all that's

12:45

gone races as every market every

12:48

price structure in afghanistan has

12:50

crash and had to be reset

12:52

and

12:53

you know whatever food distribution

12:56

yeah i guess the aid must have gone through

12:58

a major decrease and then whatever food is

13:00

being grown locally and distributed

13:02

or even imported the

13:04

distribution systems have broken down and

13:07

so even from the very beginning after

13:09

the withdraw they said are man famines gonna set

13:11

a and right now for this winner last winter the

13:15

i wonder if you can really help

13:17

draw a picture for us what is the

13:19

humanitarian situation specially

13:21

in terms of hunger and starvation

13:24

in afghanistan now

13:26

sure why think first is important understand

13:28

that even though the us

13:30

and it's allies that more than more than

13:33

billion dollars on development

13:35

aid in afghanistan building schools

13:37

and bridges and lots of other more

13:39

dubious projects like capacity

13:41

building the in is

13:43

dan the remain

13:45

one of poorest and most a dependent

13:48

countries in the world and

13:51

so when that aid was suddenly

13:53

cut off hapless taliban seize power

13:55

a natural you had a complete crap she

13:58

on the economy collapsed there

14:00

were in all the government workers

14:02

who salaries couldn't be paid

14:04

teachers people hospital workers

14:07

doctors so there

14:09

was tremendous suffering i

14:11

massive unemployment near universal

14:13

poverty and the

14:15

with a fall the un warren that half

14:18

the country was in the brink of starvation

14:20

and disease the world's largest maintain crisis

14:22

so i went back

14:24

in may that the to see what had happened

14:26

it was my first trip back since i had covered

14:28

the collapse of the republic

14:31

and evacuation the previous fall and

14:35

when i discovered was that the same and

14:37

actually hadn't happened but that was because

14:40

there was this massive humanitarian surge happening

14:43

there are actually more aid workers

14:46

working for man turn agencies inside afghanistan

14:48

today than there were the

14:51

for the us troops withdrew

14:54

the end over the winter the world food

14:56

program is feeding close to half the

14:58

population the billions

15:01

of dollars and you made her native been earmarked for afghanistan

15:04

ah the us is the largest contributor

15:06

the they've the us is also want to cause the

15:08

humanitarian crisis because the the

15:11

by administration seized afghan

15:13

bank assets seven billion dollars earmarked

15:15

half for nine eleven family there and and other

15:18

victims and though

15:22

you had to major in cash has

15:24

been feuding the country the

15:26

weird position of the us being bought a cause

15:29

of and you know time it largest

15:31

donor of aid and

15:34

right now it's it's just it's just being is

15:36

just being stable other countries being kept on life support

15:39

the un is flying and pallets of hundred dollar

15:41

bills in the country nearly a billion dollars to date

15:43

and this is the court taliban's cooperating with

15:45

this and it's had the corollary effect of

15:47

helping to stabilize their new government but

15:50

the alternative would be quite

15:52

literally of famine in the country

15:54

yeah well so i guess

15:56

the idea is though that these guys

15:58

are this cruel

15:59

the regime could be and they must be taking all

16:02

that money and spending it on themselves and

16:04

not helping the people is there any accountability

16:07

is the food getting to the pores bus

16:09

out the countryside

16:11

there are like problem the delivery of this the

16:13

food and and and the money is not going directly

16:15

a taliban and five at the whole point is that

16:18

the develop money that we're talking hundreds of

16:20

the hundred billion dollars for talking more for spousal

16:22

in the afghan government or or or boo weekley

16:25

with the afghan government now the talbot

16:27

a palette is empowered all cut off what

16:29

is happening to me and terry need that as delivered

16:31

directly by the un and the agency's

16:34

on the ground so is a lot of waste

16:36

and corruption sure there's not going directly

16:38

to the taliban but it's had the effect of doing

16:41

a stabilizing the a the country somewhat

16:43

ah at helping the taliban

16:46

govern and of course lot of the my it is

16:48

spent eventually ends up back in government coffers

16:50

through taxes

16:51

yeah

16:53

the way did you read that thing by thomas

16:55

gibbons now about half

16:58

a year ago about how he went back to home

17:00

and

17:01

met with the old man who had been kind

17:03

of the leader of the local militia that he been fighting

17:05

before and a set had to you know that

17:08

yeah i read that peace and i know him

17:11

it's an amazing story worth and

17:13

the bottom line a whole thing is this

17:16

is in you know the worst to the fighting

17:19

down and home and for the marines and everything and

17:21

at the bottom i have why with nerf

17:24

at war with this old man and his men

17:26

again the nobody knows

17:30

have you know good reason

17:31

yeah i mean i think it's adding it's hard to feel

17:34

like they accomplished anything when all

17:36

those areas of they fought and died for now back

17:38

in the and the topic

17:40

yeah and it's just me and like what

17:42

difference does it make right like they it already

17:44

was and than the taliban all along anyway

17:46

that's where they're from you no right or

17:48

not

17:49

the i think we just really misunderstood what

17:51

we're doing our intervening on one

17:54

side of a civil war and wasn't necessarily

17:56

the good guys side especially in a place like

17:58

home and where the government the deeply involved

18:01

in drug trafficking and corruption

18:03

and abuse is against logo the caused

18:05

them to support the taliban but

18:07

again this is what get we see in places

18:10

like vietnam where be backed extremely corrupt

18:12

regime in the south we had south

18:15

vietnamese death squads working with the

18:17

cia to target the

18:20

acorn and that , again the

18:22

case in afghanistan we get a lot of brutal

18:25

militias working for the cia

18:28

you had i can government forces

18:30

that were routinely involved and torturing

18:32

people and next ritual executions

18:34

and don't give your own towel then was

18:37

pretty nasty to they were doing was same

18:39

things but same

18:41

this some kind of war

18:43

where we were on the right side of it the

18:46

think that is really hard to say

18:48

that was pretty murky in a place like helmet and

18:50

we're we're we obscured that i think with a lot

18:52

of these aid projects where we were

18:56

how being yeah i can girls study

18:58

which is of course a good thing i can girls should

19:00

study for for that purpose

19:02

of the war without really what it was accomplishing

19:05

i think that ah for a long time

19:07

we leave the lie to ourselves about

19:09

what we're really doing in afghanistan well

19:13

some of them lied to the rest of us anyway

19:15

but yeah they all did it in those

19:17

people are still out in government they're

19:19

still setting us policy

19:22

they are now very much the driver's

19:24

seat on what we're doing in ukraine and

19:27

the be honest i think we haven't learned

19:29

much the way of lessons not ones are gonna stick

19:32

anyway

19:34

yeah it's really too bad and i were

19:36

in have daniel davis on and former lieutenant

19:38

colonel the talk about betray a suspended this

19:41

is coming back mattress on twitter

19:43

this morning about this is how they did it with vietnam

19:45

to all we could have won if you

19:47

just given us a little bit more money and a little bit

19:49

more time once we got rid of

19:52

westmoreland and brought in abrams

19:55

the we were gonna implement the strategy

19:57

that would work if the

19:59

new york times

19:59

then stabbed us in the back and all that

20:02

same kind of stuff makes it you

20:04

know where it's not their fault it's everybody's fault

20:06

but the people who lost the war

20:08

like a bunch of world war one generals you

20:10

know yet there was felt that the

20:12

people who we gave billions of dollars to

20:14

and complete control over

20:17

and the thousand american lives near

20:19

seriously so i mean

20:21

and as and my

20:25

interlocutors put it on twitter this morning

20:28

the gonna require a real effort on

20:30

our part to continue to push back on

20:32

that new mythmaking and refuse

20:34

to allow them to establish

20:37

those lies as

20:38

the new facts you know

20:40

if they could possibly stayed they

20:43

would have stayed hit our we

20:45

all know that that's the real truth of it

20:47

the

20:48

now i think they're going to be what it is

20:50

an opportunity for people

20:53

like myself journalists but also

20:56

academics and anyone

20:59

is interested in the conflict

21:01

you know if there's a chance to write the the real

21:03

history when , was back

21:05

in afghanistan arm i

21:08

was amazed that kind of access like could get access

21:10

to travel around the country to places

21:12

that were extremely dangerous to

21:14

go before even traveling kind of

21:17

undercover as i used to to

21:19

the talbot are in control now and if you deal

21:22

with them they

21:24

will allow you to work and

21:26

are not under no illusion that i have a lot of privilege

21:29

as a western meal journalists

21:31

but at that point the want to use that to get out there

21:33

and to to to uncover

21:35

so many things that were that were

21:38

for us for a number of years you know the other side

21:40

of the story and so i do think as chancer

21:42

right com the

21:44

real history the one's gonna be a battle of

21:46

ah over

21:49

the memory that can stand there that is a great

21:51

get great damn quote from

21:53

our be a trend when where and

21:55

the our wars are fought twice first

21:57

in the battlefield and battlefield and time in memory

21:59

the

22:01

yeah yeah the audio

22:03

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22:05

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22:07

yes of course read by me

22:10

it's available at audible amazon apple

22:12

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22:17

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22:19

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22:25

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22:28

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22:30

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education well listen i mean you're doing

23:31

your part for sure you're a big part

23:33

of the reason that people do know the truth about that

23:35

warren i saw you heavily and fool's

23:37

errand

23:38

in i forget but probably and enough

23:40

already as well

23:43

on owner afghanistan and on

23:45

yemen in enough already so

23:48

yeah that's yeah that's important

23:50

in and we are up against

23:52

the war machine itself so they have a

23:54

lot of you , incentive

23:57

and finance behind

23:59

their

23:59

narrative building so it's a hell of a fight

24:02

that we've got from now on stallion

24:04

and now so talk about as you do

24:07

and your great article for the times you

24:09

talk about the actual status

24:11

of education for girls this was

24:14

one of the major excuses for continuing the

24:16

war for so long

24:17

as you mention there

24:19

the by job despite

24:21

all the hype i think buried in here you have

24:24

the leaders that the world bank

24:26

says that education for girls

24:28

even out the countryside has increased since

24:30

america left as ever

24:32

yeah and in death

24:34

because mostly the security

24:37

situation has improved especially in

24:39

rural areas so parents

24:41

, more comfortable sending a girls' school

24:43

know you're not going to get caught in the

24:45

fighting a roadside bomb some

24:48

of them the conservative one because as gas has

24:50

a very very conservative conservative

24:53

, as on the feel

24:55

more comfortable saying their brother school under

24:57

brother emirate now

24:59

that's for elementary schools the taliban

25:01

of not reopen girls public

25:04

high schools in most provinces

25:07

witches a shame but

25:10

if they did there is

25:12

it likely that actually more growth in school

25:16

now than under the us back republic

25:19

which he is deeply ironic i agree

25:21

but the fact the matter is they have an open

25:23

schools yeah

25:24

the

25:26

the and and that's really what i went to afghanistan

25:29

one reason that would have dancing with to understand why

25:31

because they they were the we've been saying

25:34

this is just temporary and

25:36

the and kind of promised that on

25:39

this new year of

25:41

the afghan school yoda as the

25:43

march twenty third the

25:45

school to reopen the day there has been a plan

25:47

with girls went to school and on that day word

25:50

came down the education ministry that know schools

25:52

have a nasty reopen and the worst media

25:54

they are to cover at and sold his girls

25:56

would home crying it was it was a complete

25:59

disaster the per

26:01

baffling you know why would the taliban is

26:03

why would they announced that they will open it and

26:07

then cancel like is no way it was deeds

26:09

deeply embarrassing for them that broke so much

26:11

trust not only with the afghan people with

26:13

the international community ah and

26:16

what i was surprised discover in kabul was

26:18

the taxi a lot of the taliban officials

26:21

that i spoke to they were

26:24

really frustrated with the band they really

26:26

wanted girls to go back to school in on something

26:28

think loading to roger dean her connie that's

26:30

the haqqani right that's to allow the and sun

26:33

and the main guy

26:34

the right it in a colony and

26:37

the brother is and just

26:39

the kind of element , the taliban

26:41

it is part of the so called the calling

26:43

networks are actually the most

26:45

social leads quote unquote liberal

26:47

of the taliban and have been very

26:50

much in favor of allowing girls

26:52

to be educated and others

26:54

a lot of a year us or international

26:56

endures the when they had problems with

26:59

with female employees working

27:01

there are still laughed and when when women working

27:03

in afghanistan in when they had problems

27:06

with other parts the taliban they called up

27:09

sir roger guys the call because the guy and

27:11

he helped them out here's another

27:13

paradox for you which is that near the f b i

27:16

designated terrorist is

27:18

actually wanted people who wants

27:21

to allow girls about school and

27:23

they're being frustrated by the

27:27

hardliners in kandahar rather

27:29

supreme leader to the taliban has sort of

27:31

a dual authority structure

27:33

where you have have cabinet

27:36

in kabul their second

27:38

more powerful shadow governments

27:40

in kandahar in the south led

27:42

by the us in this theocratic

27:45

structure the supreme leader shake

27:47

i battle bar and a lot of these two really hard

27:49

line certain clerics are blocking

27:51

girls' education

27:54

so first i want to mention here your

27:56

partner a non goepel had

27:59

you know he's really

27:59

the best job of explaining for tomdispatch

28:02

in in his book

28:03

no good men among the living about how county

28:05

try to surrender

28:07

the beginning of the war and the americans refused

28:09

to accept his surrender over and over again driving

28:12

him to insurgency and driving him to

28:14

be one of the worst his organization be

28:16

one of the worst parts of the anti american insurgency

28:19

for all those years they're completely

28:21

self inflicted wound with that but

28:23

then i got a question which is i

28:25

guess a two parter

28:27

really think it's right that they got his watery

28:29

india really think it's right that he would stay in

28:31

his regime how tiny cells in kabul

28:34

the know what the claim mother's one of our county's

28:36

they said

28:37

that is the american

28:40

claim in i was told by a senior

28:42

america are mistreated official that

28:45

the main leadership actually

28:48

didn't know that our lottery was in

28:50

kabul and that he is or be hosted by a faction

28:54

of , connie's you know connected to

28:57

surat she's also the interior minister now

28:59

that i'm he got a little skeptical about

29:01

this could the americans are always trying to paint their

29:03

colonies as independent faction independent isolate

29:06

them when i think

29:08

is kind of becoming counterproductive but

29:12

but it is possible we just don't know

29:15

what's what is true that surprises been out

29:17

as interior minister doing public events was

29:19

clearly not you

29:21

know being broken with by the rest leadership

29:26

now was it right for the us to take

29:28

him out with a drone strike i mean

29:30

it's kinda hard to argue against killing leader

29:32

of al qaeda except that it

29:35

that it you know the little

29:37

bit disturbing

29:40

that weird were so we're doing is kinds of assassinations

29:42

and without any real debate

29:44

about their legality i mean is is they

29:48

did normally an illegal act

29:51

on you know under international law to

29:53

assassinate someone in a country

29:56

with other countries consent and

29:59

maybe was just by this case but just doesn't

30:01

seem to be be any public debate about this nor

30:03

debate about the, the strategy

30:05

going me why the watery and

30:07

in kabul? and that the

30:09

the right? if he'd been running

30:11

around the mountains of afghanistan, presumably

30:14

maybe where he wasn't under the taliban control

30:17

then maybe

30:20

you will make sense to take him out but he

30:22

there in kabul it means a month

30:24

that how they must have some kind of control over him

30:27

if they're the simple is a whole strategy

30:29

and leaving afghans and was the in on the the taliban

30:33

could be relied on to some extent

30:36

the team you follow their own interests and

30:38

not allowing afghanistan to be used

30:40

the base for trans national terrorism

30:43

then than was are no way to

30:45

way to with them and

30:48

that deserves this lot of speculation

30:50

and of course it's a it's the

30:54

when to the by administrations in over the

30:56

can over the horizon counterterrorism policy

30:59

it

31:00

well

31:01

yeah i mean he served their deserved

31:03

to be exploded to death but the american way

31:05

as you give a guy accused of a crime

31:08

a trial the new prove he

31:10

did it and then you bury him

31:12

in solitary confinement until he goes

31:14

mad and kills himself you know the

31:17

that's the american way the

31:20

against not known just explore the guy space

31:22

you know his trial would have been great you know to me

31:24

given like and some of our the hardest

31:26

core are a seal you lawyers in new

31:28

york city to defend him

31:30

and then

31:31

the make the department of justice

31:33

proof case when that have been something

31:36

oh well we'll do stuff like that

31:37

well the taliban doesn't doesn't deserve

31:40

a that they would never have extradited so are either

31:42

the us we now have the same problem that they

31:44

had a sound and lawton in

31:46

, thousand and one button

31:49

and button sure about that how

31:51

are you going to manage this problem in

31:53

the long term you know i don't think is manageable

31:55

by playing lack of more was

31:57

drunk drone strikes ultimately

32:00

the tell that are going to continue as government

32:02

in afghanistan which the however

32:05

every indication of being stable for the moment

32:07

and then that they need to be engaged with

32:09

any to be part

32:12

, the solution in managing these groups

32:15

which by the way

32:16

indeed the case that when this kind

32:18

of thing happens and al qaeda always comes right

32:20

out and claimed that they don't

32:22

admit it they say yeah our hero

32:25

has been martyred in his sit net allows

32:27

right hand now so how do you like me now gonna

32:29

thing right have they done that in this case

32:33

yeah they will they've they've they've commented

32:35

on his death and yeah called him a martyr

32:38

okay i hadn't heard that went

32:40

and looked at the site intel group

32:42

which i know as israeli intelligence but they

32:44

keep it close track on know or

32:46

at least you know very friendly with mossad were

32:49

however you define it

32:51

they usually

32:52

have you know up to date announcements

32:54

about what al qaeda saying about things but last

32:57

time i checked they didn't have anything on it yet

32:59

i think maybe i got it could be attributed

33:01

they haven't actually raise the state me as i know the

33:03

taliban have said they they're investigating

33:06

you know what happened and if

33:08

he was their why he was really there

33:11

it didn't seem like so you're saying

33:13

you had heard that they can that al qaeda had confirmed

33:15

it or not

33:16

no no i don't take that back i don't

33:18

there are no that's for sure and manage

33:21

wrong on that i am i

33:23

know from our

33:24

yeah loud be interesting to see you mean it could

33:26

be that they're just waiting until they you know

33:29

put out there new magazine issue

33:31

for or whatever it is earn their

33:33

next new podcast

33:36

though and

33:38

in yeah know as far as i

33:41

want to go back to what you were saying they're about the way that they

33:43

portray her connie a sort of a separate group

33:45

from the taliban and the

33:48

you know this sort of the bridge who

33:51

are in there implication

33:53

of the taliban for harboring okay at

33:55

least the hawks they say

33:57

well the you know maybe it's not milan

33:59

our son and this other

34:02

faction of taliban guys it

34:04

is haqqani and his friends they're the ones

34:06

who are friends with the arabs and they're the ones who

34:08

are gonna host arab terrorists against the

34:10

americans and as a base in this kind

34:12

of thing which by the way i saw

34:15

where oh i don't know if it's some

34:17

surprises cousin or what but one

34:20

of these haqqani got blown up by an ice a suicide

34:22

bomber the other day

34:24

or yesterday

34:25

yeah no is ready mullah funny

34:28

but using of the haqqani is often

34:30

used as a surname by people were not

34:32

related to the family at all simpler graduates

34:35

of that connie madrasa

34:37

isis so that was that taliban ideologues

34:40

who is was blown up slope the thing is that is

34:42

that kind network is more

34:45

or less of fiction that was created by the united

34:47

states as , kind of bogeyman

34:50

you know that there is there a lot of different families

34:52

groups networks you could call them

34:54

within the taliban but and yet

34:57

they they're not separate from the rest

34:59

the taliban the there there there's

35:01

been a lot of wishful thinking about the taliban fragmenting

35:04

over the years and the fact and matter is

35:06

that they preserve their unity to twenty years

35:09

steve emerged united they've managed to hold

35:11

together for their first year on power a

35:13

connie the interior minister and he he

35:16

he sits minister the cabinet with the other taliban

35:18

ah ministers and they all defer

35:21

to the supreme leader and

35:24

i actually one of the deputies is free leader so

35:28

i think the us is going to realize some point that

35:30

it's it's it's it's counterproductive to

35:33

you tried to but

35:35

a carny some rest the taliban who

35:37

actually that kinds of think him anywhere or so the most

35:40

reasonable people ah if

35:42

we can be dealt with in am harbaugh

35:47

n n and there there's there's the

35:49

and with someone like a nasa connie as speak

35:51

some i've spoken with us officials

35:54

to this one of caught his brothers and though

35:58

the you what one of them here saying listen if

36:00

anybody wants to debate me about educating

36:02

girls based on the koran

36:06

i'm ready to debate them and this is some

36:08

the goes back to some i guess i learned from a

36:10

non go pull on our years and years ago

36:12

that he had written for tomdispatch and

36:14

we talked about in before his book

36:16

came out again

36:18

where's that

36:19

in many cases

36:21

the even most kind

36:24

of austere interpretations of

36:26

islam are far more liberal

36:28

than the past who wally code which goes

36:30

back to like caveman times or whatever

36:33

so you have you know

36:35

the taliban coming deliberate women

36:37

from the oppressive kind of customs

36:40

and traditions of their villages and actually

36:42

provided most importantly they

36:45

can own property they can inherit it they

36:47

can even buy and sell it at least that without

36:49

was you know as he was reporting

36:51

that say ten years ago in taliban

36:54

controlled parts of the country and in their

36:56

previous history and power there were

36:58

the past two molly code was far more restrictive

37:00

than that

37:03

the i think the stretch to say the taliban

37:05

are are liberating women

37:09

from pashtunwali but they certainly

37:11

have

37:13

ended the war and

37:16

put an end to a lot of predatory behavior

37:18

by government warlords

37:21

i and in in that sense i think there are

37:23

women who who support the taliban

37:26

in some communities but at the end the day

37:30

talbot are not really not really manner

37:32

of feminist movement and

37:35

they're they're in it there an islamist movement and

37:37

but you have a cast as a muslim society

37:39

and the debate they're going to have

37:41

about

37:44

women's role should be in society right

37:47

should be given to them is that gonna take

37:49

place you know within that the discourse

37:51

about islam is not really one that we

37:54

in the west ah can can say

37:56

a lot to i'm but

37:58

at the end of the day it's it's

37:59

the bell

38:01

that's right for afghanistan not know what the

38:03

last word how about should educate girls not

38:05

about question money

38:07

it's about their own daughters and i think that a

38:09

lot of taliban i spoke to

38:11

did realize that a the know their country

38:14

needs female doctors nurses

38:16

in the very least am but

38:18

for now and four sigma hardliners are

38:20

blocking that kind of progress but we just have

38:22

to we

38:25

did have to wait and see i think that the options for

38:27

afghans and we we got used to kind of having

38:29

a lot of control or the illusion of

38:31

control over the lives of afghans

38:33

and troops are gone now so it's a very

38:35

different relationship and i think we need to

38:38

measure our expectations of what can be accomplished

38:40

in afghanistan while the same time listing

38:43

afghan people supporting them at them at at like

38:46

america is very eager

38:48

to forget about the afghan war and some

38:50

level in a one by administration

38:52

official told me that policy is

38:55

now so keep afghanistan after front page

38:57

i don't think that's think that's it afghan

38:59

to think we hi

39:02

the tremendous disaster in the country were

39:04

responsible for people a horrible

39:06

situation economically else

39:08

economically terms of this government and so the

39:11

we are we ought to keep the poor that we are not turn

39:13

our backs on the afghan

39:15

well thanks very much for coming on the show matthew percent

39:19

yeah thanks so much around me to

39:21

get caught

39:22

there's us that matthew akins you could find

39:24

him at the new york times magazine this is called

39:26

the taliban's dangerous collision course

39:28

with the west

39:30

the stalwart and show and our radio

39:32

can be heard on kp f k ninety point

39:34

seven fm in l a a

39:37

p s radio dot com

39:39

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39:41

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39:43

institute dot org