0:00

Today,

0:00

I'm gonna bring you the conclusion of Alice's

0:02

secret. If you haven't heard the first part,

0:04

go back one episode and listen to mother of

0:06

accusations part one. And then return

0:09

here for the gripping finale.

0:10

Hi, Ben. My name is Alice, and

0:12

my secret is that was accused

0:15

of attempted murder. But it's

0:17

hard to tell people the story because they

0:19

immediately wonder if it might just be

0:21

true.

0:21

Today, the secret room presents

0:24

mother of accusations, part two.

0:37

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1:43

Let's get started with the conclusion of Alice's

1:45

story. When we last left her, someone

1:47

had just tried to blow up a van in a failed

1:49

attempt to kill her mom. And Alice's

1:51

mom astoundingly called the police

1:53

to accuse her own daughter of attempted

1:56

murder.

2:00

So your mom's made that call? Yeah.

2:03

What do the cops do with this information?

2:06

So the next day, two

2:08

plainclothes detectives came to our house,

2:10

my dad's house, and

2:13

that day was for sure the scariest

2:15

day my life.

2:20

What did they what did they

2:22

say to you?

2:24

They were like these huge

2:26

men sitting at this tiny

2:29

kitchen table with me. And I'm just this little

2:32

sixteen year old, I, like, weighed a hundred and

2:34

twenty pound. I was, you know, I was just a little.

2:37

And I'm just looking at these people.

2:39

And they're just like, look, we wanna

2:41

know where you were last night. And you have no one

2:43

on your side?

2:44

No.

2:46

No.

2:47

Pressure must have been intense.

2:50

They were like, where were you last

2:52

night, and I told them where I was. And

2:55

I was on the side of town that

2:57

my mom lived on. And they're like,

2:59

okay. Well, how which way did you

3:01

drive home? I said I drove home

3:03

this way past her house. Like, her

3:05

house is on the main road.

3:07

I had to drive past her house to get on the highway

3:09

to to jump over to the other side of town.

3:12

And so they're like, did you look over at

3:14

the house when you drove past? And I said,

3:16

yeah, I did.

3:17

What did you see? I

3:20

said, I saw a blue van parked in herbed driveway.

3:23

And

3:23

they're like, okay. This

3:25

is what happened. You know,

3:27

somebody

3:28

put gasoline

3:30

towel and lid it and

3:32

tried to blow up that van, which

3:34

would Hamm killed your It would have blown up the

3:36

house. It would have blown up the house and the

3:38

house next to it. It

3:41

happened between, you know, eleven

3:43

and midnight, which is exactly when I

3:44

was driving past her house. I mean, it was.

3:46

I mean, it just doesn't get any more serious.

3:49

No. And, I mean, so they basically

3:52

said, look, I was seventeen then.

3:54

You need to confess to this now

3:57

before you turn eighteen because

3:59

when

3:59

you're eighteen, you're

4:01

going to go to jail and you're going to go

4:03

to adult jail. And so

4:06

now is the time for you to confess

4:08

to this. And I mean, they

4:10

were probably at my house. I'll have to check with

4:12

my stepmother, but I swear it it leaves an

4:14

hour and grilled me and grilled me.

4:16

And I'm like, I told Hamm the truth about

4:18

everything. Yes. I drove past your house

4:20

at that time. Yes. I looked over.

4:22

Yes. I saw a blue van. I didn't

4:25

lie about anything. I

4:27

told them exactly where I was at all these

4:29

times, but I did drive past your

4:31

house by myself at

4:33

the alleged time that they think that

4:35

this happened. They

4:37

said they knew that I did it. And they still want

4:39

evidence exactly that you drove

4:41

by Yeah.

4:42

And that they didn't think there was anybody else

4:44

that would do it. And they knew that

4:47

our relationship was strained, and she told

4:49

them that I did it. She told them

4:51

that I did it. There's still no evidence.

4:53

No. Every single person

4:56

that was along this journey

4:58

with me believed her.

5:00

Every single person took her side.

5:03

Wow.

5:03

As an adult now at fifty 1II

5:06

cannot fucking believe that. I just cannot

5:08

believe that you would do that to a sixteen year

5:10

old, that nobody would say,

5:12

hold on a second. This

5:15

isn't right. This isn't the way we do this.

5:17

And so Hamm they

5:20

left. I had a complete complete

5:22

mental breakdown. Like, I just I couldn't

5:24

I couldn't not process What

5:26

was going on? And I

5:28

think I went upstairs and

5:30

cried and I tried

5:32

to convince myself that maybe it

5:34

was me. Maybe maybe

5:36

I have two personalities. Maybe I'm two

5:38

different people. Maybe I maybe

5:40

I am doing this and I don't know. But

5:42

after a while, I'm just like, it's

5:44

it just was not me.

5:46

It was not me. You

5:48

know?

5:48

And I mean, sure. I'll lie

5:51

about you know, a few things, but I'm not gonna

5:53

lie about that, this kind of stuff.

5:55

Like, no. I totally get the self doubt. I

5:57

mean, you've had people hammering at you

5:59

about your mom and

5:59

these papers and now this, and

6:02

you have absolutely no support. Yeah.

6:04

And you maybe you just start believing the

6:06

lie for a minute, but I'm so

6:08

glad that you pulled yourself out of it.

6:11

Yeah. And I'm angry that nobody helped

6:13

me pull myself out of it at the time.

6:15

Where

6:15

was your stepmom and all that? She was,

6:18

you know, so great. She

6:20

was there, but my dad told

6:22

her stay out of it. And so I

6:24

feel like she was just like, what what can I

6:26

do? Yeah. She's in a tough spot. She

6:29

did tell me that she didn't think that I did

6:31

it. She told me that at the time. She was the only

6:33

one that did. I needed to hear it

6:35

from not her. I needed to hear

6:37

it from somebody truly involved

6:39

in this mess. Somebody could make

6:41

a difference for you. Yeah.

6:43

So they left. I had

6:46

mental breakdown. Yeah.

6:48

It

6:48

was the absolute end

6:50

of our relationship. I knew that

6:52

we couldn't come back from this. I don't know

6:54

how, you know, know you play this out, you

6:56

you say, okay, what are the things that

6:58

could get us back on track? And

7:01

I mean, even at sixteen, I'm like, there

7:03

is no way we're coming back

7:05

miss. I will never never

7:08

trust this person ever again.

7:10

How could I possibly So more

7:12

I thought about, the more I was like, okay, I

7:14

I don't know that I have anything else to lose.

7:16

Like, I don't have control of anything that's

7:18

going on. I have not controlled the story

7:21

to say that this was a defining moment was

7:23

absolutely the case. I knew

7:25

that

7:25

we will never go back to the way

7:27

we were. Of

7:29

course. Your

7:30

mom's accusing you of trying to murder her.

7:34

Yeah. Emotionally, I

7:36

was Iraq. Physically, I was Iraq.

7:38

I have no idea what was going

7:40

on at school. You know, I just was walking

7:43

around like a zombie. And then

7:45

my guidance counselor called me down to the

7:47

office. And

7:49

I walk into the office and there's two police

7:51

officers standing there, which, you know,

7:53

could scare the shit out of anybody anyway.

7:56

And they're like, you know, we're here to search

7:58

your locker. K. And

8:00

I'm like, okay. I

8:02

didn't even use my locker because it was on

8:04

a different floor. You know, and it wasn't,

8:06

like, convenient for me to get to my next the

8:08

first class. So I used my friend's locker.

8:10

We shared a locker. And

8:12

I could Hamm them and just said, here's

8:14

my locker. But I didn't. I said, I

8:16

share a locker with this girl.

8:18

Here's her locker

8:19

and her combination. I

8:21

I just gave it to them. I'm like

8:22

Well, there's no telltale guess can

8:24

sitting in there. No. No.

8:26

You know? So what you don't have anything

8:28

to hide? No. I didn't. You know,

8:30

scary. They'd find something incriminating?

8:33

Nope. No. Nothing. Before they

8:35

even looked at the locker, they told me to go back to

8:37

my room. Obviously, they looked through

8:39

the locker. And then they left. And I never

8:41

heard anything about it. Did

8:42

everybody know? Yeah.

8:44

I mean, it's public school. Yes.

8:46

The police were there.

8:47

Great. Yes. That was

8:49

That was tough. That was tough. Did they ever

8:51

try

8:51

to administer a polygraph test or anything like

8:54

that? So the

8:55

police never offered,

8:57

but my dad ended up hiring

8:59

a private detective. Oh my

9:01

goodness. Because my mother wanted him Hamm. To

9:04

investigate you. To investigate me,

9:06

yes, And so I never met

9:08

the private detective. The private detective

9:10

asked if he could administer a polygraph

9:12

test. At the time, I was like,

9:14

fuck that. I am not

9:16

lending help to help her build

9:18

some stupid story about

9:20

me trying to kill her. I'm not doing it. I'm

9:22

not helping anybody anymore. I have been

9:24

more than full and

9:25

that one of you fuckers has

9:28

gotten the clue that I have not done this. I'm

9:30

not doing it. So I did not. I

9:32

refused and of course

9:33

everybody told me that I was a huge

9:35

stake and that if I really was innocent,

9:37

I would have taken the polygraph. And

9:40

I just was like, I am done.

9:42

I have to control something in my

9:44

life. So that was not what they wanted

9:46

to hear. And my dad certainly pressured me

9:48

and tried to get me to do it. And I I just was

9:50

like, don't fuck that. I'm not

9:52

doing it. Everybody's so quick to jump on

9:54

you. Yeah. I don't I don't know why. What

9:56

about people

9:56

in your personal life? Friends?

9:58

I definitely

9:59

leaned on my friends and my

10:02

boyfriend. A

10:04

lot. Couple them were, you know,

10:06

their family friends, so they

10:08

their parents were aware of what was

10:10

going on. I had a boyfriend.

10:12

He was aware of what was going to and

10:14

then he was actually taken down to

10:16

the police station and interviewed. He

10:19

and his mom, when he

10:21

came back from that interview,

10:23

he was like, I

10:25

don't know what to say except for it's, you

10:27

know, pretty convincing that Who

10:29

else would it be? Was that

10:30

the end of your relationship with him? It

10:32

was very shortly after that that it

10:35

ended, but yeah. That Hamm crushing.

10:37

Yeah. In

10:38

all honesty was headed that way anyway,

10:40

but I don't blame him. I think his parents were

10:42

like, what the hell? Why are you with this

10:44

person? I understand. I do.

10:46

I mean, if that were my kid, I'd be

10:48

like, get the hell away

10:49

from her. We just sort of

10:51

won our separate ways, and that was that.

10:53

But

10:53

I feel bad that he was

10:55

pulled into it. I do. I still

10:58

do. What

10:58

was your dad's disposition about

11:00

the blue van and the attempted murder

11:03

accusation? We've

11:04

never actually had a true

11:06

conversation about that. He was

11:08

there. He was sitting in the same room. Same with my

11:10

stepmother when the police were at our house. And

11:14

I think he just did not know what to

11:16

think anymore. I just

11:17

don't.

11:19

But he did not tell me

11:21

ever that he thought that I didn't

11:23

do it. Even

11:25

as an adult, he never said anything

11:27

to me, like, I knew it wasn't

11:29

you. He's never said anything. And

11:32

I

11:33

love him.

11:34

He has

11:36

his own set of problems. And somehow,

11:39

I've forgiven him for that.

11:42

But

11:42

after talking about this a little bit

11:45

more, it's is hard

11:47

to comprehend why he wouldn't

11:49

say that he believed me. It's

11:51

hard. It it's hard for me to

11:53

process that. I would think so.

11:56

Yeah. Okay. So you've got

11:58

this murder charge hanging out there.

12:02

I mean, I can't even imagine.

12:04

You Hamm have to laugh about it a little bit,

12:07

Jimmy. It's nuts. Thanks for

12:09

allowing me to do it because

12:11

it's either that or cry, you know.

12:13

Right.

12:13

And so what about the mailings?

12:15

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And

15:00

so what

15:00

about the mailings? Did those continue?

15:03

Yeah. There

15:03

was one more round of mailings.

15:04

This last one

15:07

was interesting, you

15:09

know, unfortunately dug a deeper hole

15:11

for me. And the reason why

15:13

is because it was mailed to

15:15

people that she knew, but also

15:17

people that she did not know

15:19

directly. For

15:21

example, a couple of my friends,

15:23

parents got them that my

15:25

mom did not know the parents. And so

15:27

she would not have had their

15:29

addresses or anything like that.

15:31

Oh, wow. That's when we

15:34

maybe surmise, although I have no

15:36

proof of this, that perhaps

15:38

he had followed me around a

15:40

little bit because there's really no way

15:42

that my mom would know these

15:44

people except for they were friends of

15:46

mine. So you think that the person

15:48

who is doing the mailing and

15:50

tried to blow up the blue van was

15:53

following you. It's

15:55

the only

15:55

thing I can think of. Wow. That's scary.

15:58

There were very clearly a handful of people

15:59

that she didn't know at all. And the

16:02

reason why we found out is because, for

16:04

example, one of my friends, Kate,

16:06

Her parents had never met my parents. They

16:08

got one. And so she called me and told

16:10

me about it. So this is just another nail in

16:12

your coffin? Yeah. Another nail in the coffin.

16:14

It's getting worse. Yeah, it is.

16:16

Oh my god. It's

16:18

getting worse. And then the

16:20

final

16:20

nail in the coffin was

16:22

that this was a bulk mailing

16:25

And at the time, bulk

16:27

mailings went through like a

16:29

mailbox. The mailbox

16:31

that was in our city my

16:34

boyfriend's mother sorted mail

16:36

there.

16:37

Okay. I

16:38

think it was just totally a coincidence

16:40

I think. I just don't know. When

16:43

they traced it back, they knew that it went through

16:45

this sorting house or whatever.

16:47

That

16:47

is weird. Yeah. So how are things

16:50

going with the therapist?

16:52

So the

16:52

therapist after she finds out

16:55

about the attempted

16:57

murder, talks to my

16:59

parents and tells them that she's not

17:01

equipped to handle this anymore, and

17:03

that it needs to go to somebody a

17:05

little bit more sophisticated and behavioral

17:08

and more of a psychotherapist. She

17:10

then

17:10

leaves me. When you get shuffled off to

17:13

somebody else, I get

17:14

shuffled off to somebody else. Yeah. I

17:16

don't know who selected this guy. No idea.

17:18

I mean, I wasn't even like, I I just

17:20

was like, okay. We're going. Great. Fine.

17:23

I'm just gonna sit in a room somebody else is gonna tell me,

17:25

you know, that I have Fantasy versus Reality

17:28

issues or whatever. Poiled on, I I've

17:30

been taking

17:30

it this long. Yeah.

17:32

yeah And so

17:33

we go to see the therapist. And

17:36

I remember my stepmother drove me there, and

17:38

then she just sort of dropped me off.

17:40

And I go into this room and I sit down with

17:42

this guy. And, you know, he's

17:44

also middle aged and sort of

17:47

intimidating, but know, just his

17:49

presence and all of those things. But also, I'm,

17:51

like, literally a shell of a human being at this

17:53

point. And I have a chip on my

17:55

shoulder, and I am just not

17:57

even human anymore. You know what I mean?

17:59

Of course. And

18:00

I sit down and he

18:02

just, like, shoots the shit with me. I'm,

18:04

like, ready. Like, the armors

18:05

up. I'm ready. Start shooting.

18:08

I'm ready for it. And he just sort

18:10

of asked me about myself. What

18:12

I'm doing and he's totally

18:15

calm and he's not taking notes

18:17

and he's not

18:19

grilling me on things and he did not

18:21

ask me anything about any of the

18:24

specifics around what was going

18:26

on. And

18:26

I talked to him for about

18:28

an hour, and he was like,

18:31

okay. You know, thanks. And

18:32

maybe we used to set up another appointment, but I'm gonna

18:34

put some, you know, stuff together and share

18:36

it with your parents, and we'll go from there. Oh, god.

18:39

Sure. I'm like, okay. Yeah.

18:41

Bring it on. So

18:42

I went home and didn't think

18:44

a lot of it just, you know,

18:46

was just sort of carrying on with not

18:48

carrying on with my life.

18:50

And I wake up one day and they go

18:52

downstairs and my dad's in the

18:54

kitchen and he's cooking and

18:56

he's got a big smile on his face. He's

18:59

like, hey, And I'm like,

19:00

what's up? And he's like, okay.

19:02

So the therapist that

19:04

you talked to wrote

19:06

a report up and here it is. Okay.

19:08

And I'm like, okay. And I read it,

19:10

and basically, this guy says that there is

19:13

no fucking way on this earth

19:15

-- Right. -- that somebody, my

19:17

age, and in my state

19:19

of mind could ever do any of these things

19:21

that my mom is accusing me of. Wow. And I

19:23

love his official language. Yeah. I mean,

19:25

it was just like there's just no way. Right.

19:27

And so his exact words are

19:29

you need to start looking elsewhere?

19:32

Well, it's amazing. And I remember reading that

19:34

and going, oh my god. Like, I don't even know

19:36

this guy's name. I don't even know that I

19:39

really looked at him even the entire

19:41

time that I was in the room with him. And

19:43

he changed my life.

19:47

How grateful you must speak to

19:50

this man? I

19:50

totally am. I'm

19:52

so grateful. Finally, put in front

19:55

of the right person. I'm totally

19:57

grateful

19:57

to whoever the hell he is. I don't know

19:59

who he

19:59

is, but maybe you can find him. Yeah.

20:02

I

20:02

don't know. I don't

20:03

even I wouldn't even know where to begin

20:05

with that, but

20:08

So I was like,

20:10

oh my god. And my dad was like,

20:12

I know. I

20:13

know. Right. Whatever.

20:16

late Little late. I

20:17

know. A lot late. So he and

20:20

my mom had a conversation and

20:23

they,

20:23

I believe, talked to the

20:25

police, and the police were like,

20:27

you need to start looking at other relationships

20:29

that you have, and we

20:31

suggest that potentially you hire a

20:33

writing a handwriting expert

20:35

to look at some of those envelopes that were

20:37

mailed. Alice, if I can take just

20:39

a moment. I mean, honestly. Mhmm.

20:42

It

20:42

takes one person's dissenting

20:45

opinion to convince everybody,

20:47

gee, maybe we should consider

20:49

other leads. Yes. Yes.

20:51

All this time, it was in the absence of

20:53

any evidence whatsoever. And you're

20:55

the only suspect?

20:57

Yes. It's infuriating. I

21:00

know. I'm

21:00

sorry. And

21:03

I

21:04

mean, thank goodness. And

21:06

I was only I was a kid. Yeah.

21:09

Thank goodness this

21:11

person had some credentials. Hamm

21:13

carried weight with everybody? I know. They

21:15

weren't listening to you? They

21:18

were never listening to me.

21:22

obviously thought about it a

21:23

lot and, you know,

21:26

how I

21:26

could have possibly done something

21:29

different and

21:30

I just can't think of anything. Like,

21:31

I I watched my own kid who's

21:34

going on

21:34

sixteen now and my oldest one

21:37

who's now eighteen. And I just like, I

21:39

can't imagine and them having to go through this or

21:41

how they would handle Hamm. I I just

21:43

don't know. Don't wish that on

21:45

anybody. No. I don't. I

21:46

don't. I'm right

21:47

there with you. You know,

21:50

to

21:50

the extent that I can be. Yeah.

21:53

So the skies are parting --

21:55

Mhmm. -- you know, you must feel

21:57

so relieved. I mean,

21:59

so relieved the smile on your father's

22:01

face. I mean, what a difference you haven't seen this

22:03

for such a long time. Yeah.

22:05

I felt relief, but, you

22:07

know, we didn't have any answers yet.

22:09

And

22:09

so, yeah, I felt relief, but

22:11

I almost Honestly, I think it was more disbelief.

22:14

I was mentally and emotionally

22:18

completely gone. You were

22:20

broken? That was broken. Yes.

22:22

So it kinda didn't matter what you said

22:24

at that point. Yeah. It's not like you're gonna bounce

22:26

back in two seconds. It's like

22:28

Right. You gotta help me pick up the pieces

22:31

here.

22:31

Yeah. But I was

22:33

so I was so relieved and

22:35

thankful. So my parents talked to the

22:37

police and they suggested that we

22:39

hire a handwriting expert. Some

22:41

of those envelopes that were mailed

22:43

out had handwritten addresses

22:46

on it, and some of them were

22:49

printed. And so when my

22:51

mom asked for some people to send

22:53

them, they were handwritten. Some

22:55

of them And so they're

22:57

like, we think that you should have somebody look at

22:59

these and then compare them to examples

23:01

of other people in your life

23:03

and they're handwriting. And so, of course,

23:05

I was one of them. Right.

23:07

Of course. Yep. And then she must have picked

23:09

some other people. And so

23:11

the handwriting expert came back and said,

23:14

It's not your daughter. It is

23:16

this man named Ron. Ron? Who

23:18

was at Thanksgiving dinner? The

23:19

dude who got in fighting

23:21

with your brother

23:23

Yes.

23:24

Wow. What was

23:26

his motivation? I I

23:27

don't really know, but I think

23:29

that she dated him very briefly.

23:32

And then she broke up with

23:34

him and got back together with her

23:36

on and off boyfriend that she had dated

23:38

on and

23:38

off for years. So this

23:40

guy was just like jealous freak. Yeah.

23:42

But we found out later on that he

23:44

had done this to his wife at some point and

23:46

then he had done it to somebody else.

23:49

So it was a pattern of his by the time

23:51

we figured out who had

23:53

done it, he was actually already

23:55

in jail for fraudulent

23:58

checks or something like that.

23:59

Okay. No big surprise. No.

24:02

And then they basically said

24:04

that they didn't have enough evidence

24:06

to to bring a case up against him about this. Okay.

24:08

Well, he's in jail anyway.

24:10

He's in jail. And I think

24:12

that that's the last I he died

24:14

early in his life because I I do remember somebody

24:16

told me that he had died. In

24:18

jail or here? I don't think in jail.

24:20

So it was it was him the whole the whole time.

24:23

I'm sure you never went to see

24:25

him and confront him. No.

24:28

That would never done that. No.

24:30

Nothing to be gained. Uh-uh. I I

24:32

don't think so. What is

24:34

everybody's reaction when the

24:36

handwriting analysis comes back and says, this

24:38

is wrong.

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notes.

27:10

When the handwriting analysis comes back

27:13

and says, This

27:14

is Ron. What does your dad

27:16

say? What does your stepmom say? What does

27:18

your mom say? Well,

27:20

everybody was, you know, really

27:23

happy. Because

27:23

they better say the right things. I

27:25

mean,

27:25

honestly, everybody was

27:27

really happy except for me.

27:29

I wasn't happy. I felt like everybody's

27:31

like, okay. Well, we solved this mystery. Let's move on.

27:34

And I'm like, no. No. No. I can't

27:36

move on from this. I can't move on

27:38

from it. My dad asked

27:40

me to have a conversation with my

27:42

mother. And I said no,

27:44

originally. And then he's like, look for

27:46

closure sake and for all these I

27:48

just feel like she wants to talk to you. She's

27:50

reaching out. Give

27:51

her the time. And so I get on

27:53

a call with her and she's

27:55

crying. She's like, I had no idea was

27:58

Hamm. And I'm just so

27:59

relieved because, you know, he this

28:02

has been so hard on

28:04

me. And all of these things

28:06

have happened to me and blah

28:08

blah blah blah blah. And she doesn't say

28:10

one fucking thing about

28:12

I am sorry

28:15

or how can we repair our relationship? It's all

28:17

about her. Literally, the

28:19

conversation was about her, the entire

28:21

conversation.

28:21

And I I could not believe it. If

28:23

she

28:23

had said the right things, like

28:27

Alice,

28:27

my god, did I misjudge

28:29

you? I

28:30

am so sorry I

28:32

cannot imagine the way I treated my own

28:35

daughter. Is there any way that

28:37

we could repair a relationship? I

28:39

will do whatever you need. Hamm

28:41

said something along those lines, do you think you might

28:44

have attempted to reconcile?

28:47

I

28:48

think that I would have

28:50

not reconciled then,

28:53

but it would have opened a door

28:55

potentially for later on

28:57

in life having her be more of a part of it. I

28:59

needed to see more. I needed to see a

29:01

pattern of truth, and I needed to

29:03

see a pattern of love. And I

29:05

needed to see a pattern of not

29:07

drinking. And I needed to see things

29:09

before I could ever ever let her

29:11

in. And till the

29:13

day she did, she did not show me

29:15

that. So she knew exactly what it was

29:17

gonna take, and it was gonna be a long ass

29:19

road for her. No doubt, but she chose not

29:21

to

29:21

take it. So sorry for that. Well, I think she

29:23

did me a favor. Yeah.

29:24

I guess so. You know?

29:27

And so what did your father and

29:29

your son say? I

29:30

think they were just so happy them. I just

29:32

felt like, okay. Well, now

29:34

it's over. So now we can get

29:36

back to life. I could not get back

29:38

to life. It took me years and years to

29:41

get back to life. Yeah.

29:42

And I guess what I'm trying to get at

29:45

is I'm hoping when I ask you

29:47

these questions about how they reacted, I'm

29:49

hoping that your dad,

29:51

especially in your stepmom

29:53

that they're gonna say, I'm sorry.

29:55

No. There was no. I'm sorry.

29:58

There was a lot of relief.

29:59

Not living with a murderer. Of course, they're gonna be

30:02

relieved. Yeah. And they don't

30:04

have to deal with her anymore. I mean, that

30:06

was, you know, probably that's a big

30:08

burden for him. But you're

30:10

this seventeen year old daughter at this

30:12

point who's been in the center of this

30:14

maelstrom. Yeah. And all the adults are

30:16

the ones who have been at fault here.

30:18

You have done nothing. didn't do one

30:20

single thing, and every single

30:22

adult around me -- Yeah. --

30:24

completely failed me. Everybody moved on

30:26

except for me. And then I just I

30:28

sat in more loneliness.

30:33

Because, again, I I didn't go to therapy

30:35

after that. I don't

30:37

even trust therapists anymore. I don't

30:39

think

30:39

I ever will. Go back to that one

30:42

guy.

30:42

Yeah. I know. Mhmm. I

30:44

still have trust issues. I mean, I will trust my life, but

30:47

it was over for everybody and it was not

30:49

over for me. Yeah.

30:53

Yeah. So you said

30:55

your mom died?

30:58

Yes. Can you tell me how that

31:00

came about? Well, I'll

31:01

tell you this. My dad died in

31:03

two thousand and eight. He had a massive stroke

31:05

when he was fifty eight.

31:07

Did

31:07

he previously see your mom? Yes.

31:10

He

31:10

stuck around for ten years and

31:13

was with no quality of life. he

31:15

died. The day that my dad died,

31:17

my mom was so distraught

31:19

by it, that I actually had to check

31:21

her in a rehab. So she

31:23

even made that moment about

31:26

her, which is shocking to

31:28

me, but she did. So

31:30

this woman who I

31:32

cannot fucking stand, like, more than anybody in the world.

31:34

I'm driving her so that she

31:36

can get quit

31:37

alcohol. I'm like, okay. I

31:39

mean, I I can't make the shit up. Like,

31:42

really? Yeah. She's gotta make it about

31:44

her. After Hamm,

31:45

we're lack thereof, and she started

31:48

drinking again. Told her she could not hang around with

31:50

my kids because somebody in

31:52

her church community came up to me

31:54

and told me that she took my daughter

31:56

over to the church for a Easter

31:58

egg hunt. And apparently in the

32:01

afternoon, she was

32:03

drunk, and she was with my daughter alone. I

32:05

thought it was safe because the church was

32:07

literally a black away from my house.

32:09

And so after that, she moved

32:11

to Florida. By

32:12

herself, just moved to Florida. And

32:15

she was there for a little while. She

32:17

got sick. She had cancer

32:19

of the mouth. Which is ironic, I

32:22

know. And I do

32:22

enjoy telling people that. I'm just gonna

32:25

I don't know. I'm

32:27

wrong. I know you were, like, what are the odds? Right? Right.

32:30

My brother and I flew down to,

32:32

like, get her into a a nursing home

32:34

and clear out her apartment and

32:36

when we were in Florida, one of my

32:38

mom's friends.

32:39

Like, I I know that you

32:40

and your your mom have a strained relationship.

32:44

And

32:44

I'm like, no.

32:46

I just, like, looked at her, like, are you fucking

32:48

kidding me? So

32:49

this woman actually has been

32:52

told some story who knows if it's

32:54

my daughter tried to kill me

32:56

or my daughter tried to sabotage

32:58

me with some kind of or she just

33:00

made up some lie about me.

33:03

And so this woman tells me, well, I

33:05

know you, you know, blah blah blah.

33:07

You're I know that you have a strained relationship. And

33:09

I was just like, fuck you.

33:11

You

33:11

don't know anything. You don't

33:13

know anything about anything.

33:15

So

33:15

just step the fuck away from

33:17

me and let me get do my

33:20

stuff. This woman when I was

33:22

young was somebody that I

33:24

looked up to and loved

33:26

so much. Gosh, she was such

33:29

a great became such a

33:31

fucking monster, such a monster. We

33:33

have this park near our house,

33:36

and I live very close to where I

33:38

grew up and I walked to In fact, I I buried

33:40

my my dad. I threw his ashes in there too.

33:42

Mhmm. So it's a park that we my

33:44

family and I go to all

33:46

the time. And I was walking my dogs through the park one

33:48

morning, and I get a call from a number

33:50

of Florida, but not her number.

33:53

It's her nurse calling on her

33:55

own cell

33:56

phone. And she's like, I'm I'm just

33:58

your mom told me

33:59

the numbers so I'm calling it. She was having a hard

34:02

time calling you. I'm like, okay.

34:03

What's what's up? She's like, well, I'll

34:05

put it on speaker so that you could talk

34:07

to her. Okay. Embracing. So she

34:09

gets on the call and she's like and she

34:10

she does have a hard time talking because

34:11

she's got cancer at

34:14

all, but she so

34:16

sweets

34:16

me. And

34:18

so lovely. And it's because this woman

34:20

is sitting there in the room and

34:22

that is the only reason why because

34:25

I knew the second she started talking.

34:27

That there was somebody standing right next to her,

34:29

paying attention to what she was

34:32

saying, and so

34:32

she had to be

34:34

nice. I

34:36

was just like, wow. And at the end of that conversation, she

34:38

told me that she loved me, which she

34:40

has not said since I

34:41

was a child, literally

34:44

a child. I

34:45

just hung up the fucking phone. I just hung

34:48

it up. She

34:49

died two days later. Was that

34:51

the last time you talked to her? That

34:53

was the last

34:53

time I talked to her. I got a call

34:55

from this guy in the middle of the night. He's

34:57

like, he's distraught. He's like, I am so sorry to

34:59

tell you this. Your mother has

35:01

passed away at and I am just so sorry. And I'm like,

35:04

can you repeat that?

35:06

Mhmm. And he's like Can you

35:08

confirm? Ma'am, Yeah.

35:10

Right. Ma'am, your mother passed away

35:12

in the evening at this time. And I was

35:14

like, okay. Thank you very much. And I hung up

35:17

the phone. How did you

35:19

how did you feel feel? I felt good.

35:21

Yeah. I felt good. I felt

35:23

The nightmare is over. Yeah.

35:24

If I felt like I

35:26

don't have to think about this person

35:29

that

35:29

I hate. And I don't want to have hate in my heart, and I don't Hamm

35:31

walk around hating somebody. I just

35:33

don't. And especially your

35:36

own mother, is so

35:38

hard to explain to other people

35:40

how you

35:42

could possibly hate your mother, but

35:44

I do, and I did. And

35:46

I still do. And I always will. I think we can understand. Yeah.

35:49

There is no room for doubt

35:51

on that, Alice. Yeah. I

35:54

know. And so for me, it was like, great. This is out of

35:56

my hands. I don't wanna have anything to do with

35:58

it. Like, I told my

35:59

brother

36:00

that you know,

36:02

if you wanna make funeral arrangements and all

36:05

the things, you go right ahead and do

36:07

it. I don't wanna have anything to do

36:09

with it. So she was cremated. They called me, of course,

36:11

and was like, okay. We're gonna resend the ashes. I said, well,

36:13

you can send them right over to my brother because

36:15

I don't want them. You

36:17

don't need Hamm? No.

36:18

He ended up not having a ceremony or anything. I think he put it in

36:20

her ashes somewhere, but I was like, I am

36:23

absolutely done with this person and

36:26

It took me a couple years, but, you

36:29

know, as my oldest daughter

36:31

turned sixteen, I just

36:33

realized, like, holy

36:36

I was this girl's age when all of this was

36:38

first started. And it

36:40

just brought up so many memories

36:43

of just how

36:45

incredibly unusual this is

36:48

and how I have

36:50

been embarrassed to tell people about it because I'm

36:52

embarrassed that people would think that I tried to

36:54

kill my mother. And I

36:56

have carried the burden of the guilt

36:58

and the shame

37:00

of this. And I just decided I wasn't gonna do that

37:02

anymore. You have nothing

37:02

to be ashamed of? I don't, but

37:05

I mean, I

37:05

always felt like I

37:08

did because she made me feel

37:10

like I did, and she kept telling other people stories

37:11

about me that made me

37:14

feel shameful. I

37:17

don't know what triggered, but it was definitely

37:19

my kid

37:20

turning sixteen. They got

37:22

me to go, oh, no.

37:24

This story needs to be told. And

37:26

I need her family to understand. I

37:28

need my friends to understand. I

37:32

need total strangers to

37:34

hear this because somebody is going through

37:36

this, some kind of

37:38

relationship like this with

37:40

their mother. I just want them to know that they'll there's,

37:42

like, at the end of the tunnel. You know what

37:43

I mean? It took me

37:46

thirty years, but it doesn't have to

37:48

take people

37:50

thirty years. You know.

37:51

Good job. You got it out. told the story. I got it out.

37:53

And for sure, you're helping

37:56

somebody. I

37:58

hope so. Life is

37:59

hard. And so when you tell your family

38:02

the story, what did they

38:03

say? So I shared

38:05

it with all my cousins

38:07

and my brother. And

38:09

my cousins were great. They were

38:11

like, holy shit. I didn't know this

38:13

happened. Like, nobody told me anything. Like,

38:15

what's going on? I can't believe

38:17

this. So this is all my cousins on my mom's side. And then I shared it with

38:20

my uncle and my cousins on my

38:22

dad's side.

38:25

And my poor uncle cried and

38:27

was like, I'm so

38:28

sorry. Mhmm. I

38:30

didn't know. No. Just

38:32

It's a heartbreaking. Yeah.

38:34

He just was so he felt so

38:36

bad. He would Hamm been there for

38:39

you. Yeah.

38:40

I think so.

38:42

Yeah.

38:42

But he just didn't didn't know,

38:45

you know. And so that

38:47

was really

38:47

good. And

38:50

then you know, I didn't really get a

38:52

lot of comments or feedback from my brother. He

38:54

just I think he sent me a text, and

38:56

he's he's not a he's not real great

38:59

at communication. He wasn't aware of the whole story while it

39:01

was going on? Oh, he was aware of

39:03

it. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. He he was.

39:05

But again, he was, you know, he was

39:07

also seventeen, eighteen. Also living

39:09

his own life, but

39:12

he was just in town maybe a couple months ago,

39:14

and he's like, I'm not

39:16

ready to talk about that yet. Maybe

39:18

in a couple years. And I was like, oh,

39:20

what's what's up? And he's like,

39:22

I just don't remember it that way.

39:25

Then I was like, oh, okay. So you don't

39:27

remember what happened to me

39:30

that way? I didn't say that, but I just I

39:32

steer it. I was it was kind of

39:34

disbelief. You know, I was literally,

39:36

it was just like, you're kidding me. Right?

39:38

So you still think you got that hanging

39:40

out there to deal with? You

39:42

know, I've I've thought about it, and I don't

39:45

think I'm going to. Because I

39:47

don't know I mean,

39:49

you can gaslight the shit out

39:51

of this to go ahead and do it. But I I lived

39:53

it and was there. And, you know, before I even

39:55

did this podcast, I had

39:57

to reach out to my

39:59

my

39:59

friends, my stepmother to help

40:02

me build this timeline again

40:04

because it was so buried deep. So

40:06

it wasn't like you know, not

40:08

that I have to prove anything, but it's

40:10

certainly not not like I pulled this, you know, this

40:12

whole story out of thin

40:14

air. It it fucking happened,

40:16

and it happened exactly the way that I just,

40:18

you know, mapped it

40:20

out. So, I mean,

40:22

he can gas light if he It's

40:24

and I I won't be a part of it.

40:26

So I gotta draw on the

40:28

line. So

40:30

looking back,

40:30

on the way father handled

40:33

it? Yeah. How

40:34

do you

40:35

feel about that?

40:39

Honestly, III have really mixed

40:42

feelings about it because I

40:44

am really super disappointed in

40:46

him for not

40:48

protecting me. Because let's face it. That's his

40:50

job. I I have

40:52

forgiven him, but I'm trying to, like,

40:54

emotionally process,

40:56

like, how it is that he could have allowed it to get that far?

40:58

Because he is a controlling person.

41:00

I mean, he he had a presence about him.

41:02

He he it wasn't like he was some

41:06

wallflower. He knew exactly what the decisions he was making and what

41:08

and what he wasn't making. I've never talked

41:10

to him about it. And now he's gone,

41:12

I obviously can't, but I

41:15

have to work on reconciling that, and I think

41:17

that that's gonna take a long time

41:19

for me. I think I was waiting for her

41:21

to die to do this. I

41:24

don't know why, but I just was

41:26

so happy that

41:27

she was dead. Then I was

41:29

like, okay. Now is my time to

41:31

take over this

41:32

story. Well, yes, the ultimate closure. She doesn't have any control

41:34

over the narrative anymore. Exactly.

41:37

Exactly. And

41:37

maybe there was a fear in me that she would try

41:40

to

41:40

control it

41:42

again. Gotta give her credit. She's done a damn good job controlling that

41:44

narrative for a long time. Oh, well, she

41:46

never would have come around. So

41:49

I think you're She wouldn't. Yeah. No.

41:52

No. No. So where

41:53

we leave you now, it's still a work in

41:56

progress, but you're

41:58

definitely on the low end of the

41:59

other side of the

42:02

hill. Definitely. Definitely.

42:02

And I've been

42:03

lucky enough to be

42:06

amazing person, and I have two amazing

42:08

Hamm. And I have a family

42:10

that I love. And I have friends

42:12

that mean more to me than anything.

42:16

And I couldn't be I couldn't be more

42:18

blessed. And if I had to go through that

42:20

again to get this, I

42:22

would've, I guess,

42:24

I would've So my life is great, and her

42:26

life was never great.

42:28

Never great. She had a shitty life. And

42:30

I'm I'm okay with that.

42:33

Well, Alice, thank you so much

42:36

for sharing your story.

42:38

Thank you, Ben. I

42:39

appreciate you having interest

42:42

in it. I mean, I remember telling somebody when I was doing this. I'm like,

42:44

okay. If if this isn't an interesting story, you just

42:46

let me know I get it. And they're

42:48

like, no.

42:48

No. I think it's I

42:51

think it's what you're saying. I'm like, oh, okay.

42:53

No doubt about it. Hey. If it

42:55

helps

42:55

somebody out there, then I've

42:58

done

43:00

my job. Okay. How

43:07

do you feel?

43:10

I feel

43:10

emotional. Yeah. But I feel good. Yeah.

43:14

I'm just my goal is

43:16

to get through this without

43:18

writing one day.

43:20

I cannot imagine

43:22

being unjustly accused of

43:24

all the charges levied against Dallas. Including

43:26

attempted murder. It was also wrong. And while

43:29

the truth eventually came out, it wasn't

43:31

without a terrible toll being

43:34

exacted on and the people around her. I asked her later if it was

43:36

possible that Ron had intended to blow himself

43:38

up with her mom. And Ella said she

43:40

could only

43:42

guess, yes,