0:07

Martin: Go. Blair: Alright. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

0:11

Welcome to the secular Boom cast today.

0:15

Martin and I have two great guests.

0:18

James Valiant and Warren Faye are here to discuss their documentary and their book

0:24

Creating Christ how the Romans Invented Christianity.

0:29

Good afternoon, gentlemen. How are you?

0:32

Warren: Good, thanks. James: How are you, sir? Blair: It's great to have you, believe me.

0:37

I love how you open your documentary or the

0:40

documentary by having the viewer think you're talking about present day events in the Middle

0:44

East. Yet it isn't, is it?

0:48

James: Well, there we can take some spread. I guess the documentary was first thing I want

0:53

to say is that the documentary was created and produced by not Mr. Fey and myself.

0:59

Although inspired by our book, we're looking at Emmy award nominated documentarians who've

1:04

done previous documentaries. They had the creative control, they made all

1:08

the visual and musical decisions.

1:11

They edited it. I wish that I could take any credit in such a magnificent documentary.

1:16

I'm very pleased with it. But the creative decision of theirs and out of

1:20

our control, we signed the rights over to them.

1:23

But you happen to choose one issue where there's overlap between the book and the

1:27

documentary. We assume that they use books start.

1:32

Martin: That way to inspire the year 66 2022.

1:38

James: Right. And if you think about it, that ancient war

1:42

from 2000 years ago in one sense hasn't stopped.

1:45

And we meant to give people a vivid connection between religion and politics in our own time

1:50

and how it leads to violence and terrorism and how primordial religious ideas are still at

1:58

war with more advanced Western ideas.

2:01

The basic conflict hasn't changed.

2:06

Martin: Games. Warren and Micah blair.

2:09

And please take care here with your voice.

2:11

Also, we recommend stopping your recording before hanging up.

2:17

Okay? So that's also information for the call.

2:20

So we are doing this live, but I want to do a shout out and thank you note to Fritz Heed.

2:27

Is that correct? Nonsense.

2:29

Warren: Yes. Martin: Could you tell? Because I got access, because this is the

2:33

license and so on, mainly in North America, but I got access to that so I could watch it

2:39

and I'm blown away.

2:42

And it's a great documentary.

2:44

So could you please tell a little bit more about them, fritz he and his operation, his

2:50

companion and their work. And then Blair, you continue with your

2:54

questions. Blair: Sure. Go ahead, James.

2:57

Warren: Yeah, well, they're documentarians who also did a documentary on Joseph Atwell's book

3:09

Caesars Messiah. And so they contacted us after the book came

3:15

out and they were interested in doing a documentary based on our book as well.

3:23

So that we spent a few days with them doing interviews and we visited a Catholic church

3:29

and looked at all of the symbolism that was in the architecture of the church and it was

3:35

rather vivid. Anchors and dolphins everywhere.

3:40

They took all of that material and over the last two years they put together this

3:47

documentary. James: They came to where Mr. Faye was living at the time, where I lived still.

3:55

And we went to the main Catholic church, one of the oldest here and biggest here in San

4:04

Diego, which is located at the university where I went to law school.

4:07

But, of course, that never stepped through the Cathedral Park, what they call the immaculata

4:13

at all. That was my very first visit to that

4:19

structure, that church. And both Mr. Fay and I were simply blown away

4:25

as we walk in for the very first time.

4:27

There's an interesting symbol over here. You got your anchor.

4:29

Well, over here, we were just constantly

4:32

pointing out all the various things and all the various niches in the church.

4:41

Warren: Once you have that symbolic key, then you look around, you see it everywhere.

4:45

It's amazing. The whole church was practically made out of

4:48

anchors, pourishes, of dolphins everywhere.

4:52

It's just amazing. People never put that together, which is.

5:04

Blair: I can hear everyone. Warren: It's a miracle.

5:09

Yeah. It's miraculous that nobody ever put

5:12

those symbols together before.

5:16

I think that there was a little zigzag in the

5:20

way that those symbols were interpreted in the modern day, because it was erroneously

5:25

associated with Augustus saying festina lente, which means make haste slowly, which was

5:34

Augustus's favorite saying. And so it was assumed that he had issued a

5:38

coin with a dolphin and anchor on it, which never happened.

5:41

Augustus never did issue that coin.

5:44

He had a symbol of a trident and a dolphin

5:49

wrapped around it, but never of an anchor with a dolphin wrapped around it.

5:54

And so because of that, was transposed to think that it was a symbol of festina lente,

6:01

of Augustus saying it got completely overlooked as a symbol that was used by both

6:08

Christians and the Flavians. So that disguised what was going on for a long

6:14

time. And in fact, we do know that Augustus had a

6:18

symbol that he created to express the idea of maze slowly, or festival, which was a snail

6:26

shell and a rabbit's front moving along fast, but a snail behind.

6:33

And so that's how he actually illustrated that faith, and it never had anything to do with

6:38

the dolphin or an anger. So that was a confusing thing that probably

6:43

let people forget, not catch what was going on between the Christians and the slavians until

6:49

we had to unravel that as well. James: So, in fact, the first association of anchor and dolphin with 15 lente cannot be

6:56

attested until the ground. Warren: Right, right.

7:02

It was the famous printer used it as his logo

7:06

of his publishing company, and he probably is the one who misuscribed it to Augustus coin.

7:14

But it is known that the Flavian emperors were the first to use the.

7:17

James: Symbol for use to use the at all.

7:23

Blair: Go ahead. James: First and second Jewish revolts was just interesting.

7:29

Blair: So what ignited your quest to discover Christianity's origins?

7:35

Was there something you both discovered or both?

7:38

One said to the other, hey, look at this.

7:41

Or what began the quest.

7:46

James: Interesting, we both came from Christian families, and we both had a

7:50

Christian background, in effect, as a child.

7:52

I think I took it more seriously longer than

7:55

Mr. Faye did. I think he was wiser in dumping the whole

7:58

thing earlier on, and he fortunately had a father who told the Bible was a closed mind,

8:05

and so he had some good, good people telling him, helping him get out of that his own way

8:11

when he was a child. But even after we both became atheists, he is

8:18

by nature a researcher. He is, I guess, what we would call a wonk.

8:22

He will become an expert on the detailed science of whatever that he is studying.

8:28

And so over the years we've known each other since childhood.

8:31

We've had all kinds of fascinating discussions.

8:34

We really his teens discovered Iron Rand together, for example, and much of philosophy

8:39

together. He always wanted to be a novelist, even before

8:41

he'd read any novels by Iron Rand.

8:44

And he was a brilliant writer, even teen, and

8:46

he's gotten only more masterful sense in my book.

8:49

I recommend every novel that Warren Fay has ever published.

8:54

They are some of the finest. He's the finest living novelist of our time.

8:58

I will be that blunt about it, and I do know I'm biased.

9:02

He's a childhood friend of mine, but I read a lot of novels.

9:05

He's just a stupendous writer. I myself wanted to use the knowledge I got

9:10

from being a Christian woman, and so I continued my studies after I discovered

9:15

philosophers like random Nietzsche. I had an inspiration one day at a library

9:19

reading Josephus, and I was so inspired by it that I cut a beeline when the traffic calmed

9:25

down to Mr. Fay's home and I started out his poor little apartment.

9:31

Well, you got to wake up. You got to wake up, dude, you got to wake up.

9:33

I'm so excited about something.

9:36

One of the many connections that we talk about

9:39

in the book was just one, but it led to a whole series of chain reaction of other

9:43

implications and hypotheses. He finally comes out his boxers needs a shame.

9:49

Okay, Jimmy, this better be damn.

9:54

I said no, really? Warren: But that's the kind of relationship yeah.

9:58

And that was 35 years ago, and it took over 30 years to finally put it all together into the

10:06

book. But yes, he chewed my ear off for hours that

10:11

first night, and really, we kind of came to the conclusion that was pretty close to what

10:18

the Antithesis was, which was that Christianity began as a sort of proto imperial

10:27

cult of the Flavians, or at least an aspect of their imperial cult.

10:31

And of course, it got modified, and we focused in more tightly over the years.

10:38

But that was the takeaway even from the very beginning.

10:44

Blair: I see a lot at that point in time.

10:48

James: Go ahead. We each found important evidence along the way

10:52

that we just grew more and more certain that we would have to present this back to the

10:59

image issue that he brought up about Festina Lente.

11:03

Since the publication of Creating Christ, we've gotten some remarkable praise and

11:07

endorsements from various people.

11:11

One of the most remarkable is Professor Mark

11:13

dispensent. He has just retired from King's College

11:18

London, where he taught this, his area edition in ancient history.

11:23

In this particular matter, early Christianity is astonishing.

11:27

He knows numerous ancient languages.

11:30

He is in particular and has been over the years, an expert in ancient Roman iconography, particularly as it relates to the Christians,

11:37

and recently been converted to Roman providence thanks to our book.

11:42

And he is now currently working on a new book with various authors who advocate Roman

11:49

providence. So it really has been an exciting,

11:53

overwhelming time. I did not think that the book would have that

11:57

kind of impact, but so shortly for people like Dr. Price to say such nice things, professor

12:05

Eisenman, Professor Marcus Vincent to say such nice things.

12:10

It's been a really remarkable to have a documentary made on your book within five or

12:17

six years of it coming up. I really am blown away by the reaction.

12:21

I thought, you don't want 100 years. They might dust it off and say, you know,

12:24

these guys may have had a point or something, but to have this kind of reaction has really

12:30

blown me. Blair: Well, that's great.

12:32

I know that Dr. Price and Dr. Eisenman are

12:36

well renowned scholars in their fields.

12:41

James: But they have an international reputation while those professor Vincent but I

12:45

think you have to be an open minded, creative mind to be at the cutting edge with us on

12:51

this. I think we should expect a pushback both from

12:55

standard academia establishment types as well as Christian, obviously from your sincere

13:02

Christian apologist types. Blair: Yeah. Speaking for myself, I rejected religion when I was seven, but unfortunately I

13:14

had to go to church till I was 18. A lot of damage was done, so to speak, but I

13:22

could just remember, like, what is this garbage is so boring.

13:29

But that aside for me, Christianity, I said in my question, I said, It's a hoax.

13:39

But is it a conglomeration that they, like, take over pagan rituals and other myths and

13:49

then into that faith, or am I even close?

13:55

Warren: I think that religion and statecraft were one and the same in the ancient world,

14:02

and that's just how they did politics.

14:05

So we separated today and one's on one side

14:09

the other, but there wasn't any separation back then.

14:13

Blair: That makes a great deal of sense. Yeah.

14:15

James: Think of what the American Revolution did by creating a secular government.

14:18

No established religion, freedom of exercise.

14:21

You think even of what Napoleon did in

14:23

attempting to secularize the governments of continental Europe.

14:26

We today, 200 years on from those developments.

14:30

We think of law as secular thing, and we think of religion as a separate thing, so that when

14:36

say, jihadists come out and say we want enforce Sharia law, what do you mean you want

14:40

religious law? Not in the west, thank you very much.

14:44

We've gotten over that, you see, in the west, in the Islamic world.

14:48

I certainly have not. But you go back more than 300 years, there's

14:53

no separation between church and state.

14:57

The kingdoms of Europe that still have kings

15:00

and queens have established state churches unto this day, which is really astonishing if

15:06

you think about it. Now, everything in the ancient world that was

15:11

political had a religious interpretation.

15:13

And every religious idea is obviously being

15:16

manifest in the event, the historical events, their moment, they saw them all in those

15:22

terms. Roman Republic was a sacred institution

15:24

blessed by the gods. They had an official, official state religion.

15:29

They all did. The Jewish revolt itself had religious causes.

15:33

They wanted to enforce the Mosaic Law within their own territory, much the same as

15:39

consistent Muslims today want to enforce Sharia law in their countries.

15:43

And so it was a question of Roman governance and law and religious perspectives along with

15:50

the Jewish governance and law along with the religious perspectives that informed them.

15:55

But an event like the Jewish first century or the next great Jewish revolt of the second

16:00

century under Barcopa were explicitly religious in nature.

16:04

Ancient commentators said they were religious in cause.

16:07

It was the messianic prophecies of the Jews that caused this, what we would call today,

16:12

say, terrorism and religious jihad warfare 2000 years ago.

16:18

And it was a catastrophic war.

16:20

And we just simply could not believe that that

16:23

messianic inspired religious war of the first and second centuries was disconnected.

16:30

The emergence of Christianity at that very moment in history.

16:34

Blair: I see this was pointed out in your book and in the documentary.

16:40

What's the significance of Joseph's histories and the Gospels were being written at the same

16:45

time? Warren: Well, that was actually one of the things that sparked the whole investigation

16:52

that led to the book. James came over to my apartment in the middle

16:58

of the night and told me that he's been reading, comparing Josephus to the New

17:05

Testament Gospels and to the prophecies of Jesus coming back when the temple was

17:10

destroyed. And he describes certain aspects of what that

17:14

scene will look like that mirrored Josephus's description of the actual sacking of the

17:19

temple 40 years later.

17:21

So of course they were written at the same time.

17:24

Both these things were written after the fact,

17:26

the Gospels and Josephus side by side.

17:29

So the fact that those things were perfect

17:32

mirror images of each other obviously suggested there was some kind of coordination.

17:38

James: The numerous parallels between the Plevian emperors and the descriptions of

17:43

Christ had already been discussed by a scholar named Joseph Atwell.

17:48

For example, we had noted those long before Joseph Atwell's book was even published, many

17:54

of them at least. And furthermore, the way Josephus describes

17:59

the siege of Jerusalem is precisely what Jesus describes in the first three canonical

18:05

Gospels. And so much so that what Jesus said could only

18:10

imply that he was expecting the glorious coming of the Son of man to happen when the

18:15

temple was destroyed in 70 Ad and Jerusalem raised to the ground.

18:21

Well, the prophecy was obviously a post event prophecy.

18:25

So where is this glorious coming of the Son of man?

18:28

We have the temple destroyed, Jerusalem destroyed, cataclysmic events.

18:32

But there were Messiahs who claimed to be Jewish Messiahs at the time, glorious comings

18:37

of the Son of man and these were the Flavian emperors who had destroyed Jerusalem.

18:41

And I was reading in Joseph's vestasian is the Jewish messiah.

18:46

Wait, what a minute, wait a minute. He describes the siege of Jerusalem just as

18:50

Mark 13 does, with armies fighting in the clouds invoking earlier Jewish prophecies.

18:56

So both Josephus and the Gospels use the same prophetic imagery to describe the glorious

19:03

coming of a Messiah at this time.

19:06

Jesus makes it very plain it will happen within the lifetime of people hearing him.

19:10

And the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple did happen at that time.

19:13

But where's this glorious coming of the Son of

19:15

Messiah? It could only be really a proof text of the

19:18

Flavian claims. What you find in the Gospels and based on the

19:24

description or events that Josephus himself is describing, probably the very description,

19:29

since I don't think there was probably an army by the clouds over Jerusalem, they share a

19:36

common source, in other words, Josephus and the Gospels.

19:38

And Josephus is a Roman propagandist.

19:45

So you see the connections between the Roman

19:48

reaction to the Jewish war and early Christianity became more and more unstacable.

19:53

And when you look at the doctrines of the Jewish rebels versus New Testament Christians,

19:58

it becomes clear that the New Testament is a critical reaction to the militant nationalist

20:04

Torah orthodox messianic Jewish rebels of the first two centuries.

20:09

It seems that Christianity is a perfect critique of each of the elements that seem to

20:14

have alienated the Jews from Roman culture or have inspired directly to war.

20:19

Messiah, Torah, Orthodoxy, nationalism, militancy, not peace on earth and everyone can

20:26

get along. It doesn't matter whether you're a Jew or

20:29

Greek. All that stuff we read in the New Testament is

20:32

obviously Roman propaganda. And a recent scholar, Professor Robin Faith

20:36

Walsh, a recent book from Cambridge University Press, which I highly recommend, basically

20:42

demonstrates that the New Testament could only have been written by Greco Roman elites of

20:48

period. Blair: Wow. Martin: You mentioned something about the so called the agent Paul and how maybe that was a

21:00

scheme in the long run.

21:03

Warren: Well, there is speculation that Paul himself was a Roman agent who was sent among

21:11

the Jewish rebels to sort of sow division or to mallify some of their more belligerent

21:22

tendencies. But there's a lot of mystery there.

21:27

What exactly Paul was even the dating of Paul is still up in the air.

21:32

James: In the book, we take a very standard consensus scholar to view on the dating of

21:37

Paul, his letters written in the middle of the first century, basically, which is where most

21:43

scholars are. But that's really just been a carryover

21:47

there's not a lot of good reason for specifically, there is no attestation for any

21:52

of the contents of the New Testament until the second half of the second century Ad.

21:57

That is to say, not even Christian scholars will quote earlier Christian material found in

22:02

the Judgement. We don't even have descriptions of this

22:07

material apart from the most vague descriptions until the second half of the

22:11

second century. A friend of mine, Jack Full of PhD candidate

22:15

at King's College London, has pointed this out and he said, in any other really good point in

22:20

any other field of ancient history, you'd be laughed off the stage if you said, this must

22:26

be first century. There's really no attestation.

22:28

But we take a very conservative date in the book.

22:31

And since writing the book, I have become more and more convinced of a later and later dating

22:36

to both Paul's letters and the Gospels.

22:40

But to be safe, anytime between, say, 50 and

22:44

the 150 Ad are any of the potential times, because we don't have any physical manuscript

22:50

scraps of the New Testament, we have no attestation from other authors, even Christian

22:55

authors, until the second half of the second century.

22:58

So in terms of quotes and a clear naming of what we're reading.

23:03

So while we take that view, anytime between, say, the years before the first revolt and the

23:10

years following the second revolt are actually, from a strictly speaking, scientific

23:16

perspective, at plausible dates for the New Testament.

23:20

It's funny, though, that the Flavian era, the two Jewish wars, are going on right at this

23:26

moment. There was a question earlier I'm sorry, I kind

23:34

of lost sight of your. Blair: I was going to ask we know that Rome was open to accepting the religious

23:43

affiliations of the people they conquered, but I'm assuming that the Jewish revolted because

23:49

they didn't want to separate the state and their faith.

23:53

James: The Romans were very accommodating foreign religions.

23:57

They just absorbed foreign religions from the east to the Greek religion.

24:01

They just one for one, identified the pantheon early on.

24:06

But you could worship Egyptian gods like ISIS and therapists in Rome.

24:10

You could worship the Phrygian great mother.

24:12

You could, in time, worship their enemies god

24:14

Mithra from Persia. So they were just absorbing and developing a

24:18

Roman version of all of these different Eastern religions.

24:22

If there wasn't a Roman version of Judaism, it would really be a big lacuna in the area.

24:28

Where is the Roman version of Judaism now? At first, the Romans gave exemptions to the

24:33

Jews because they couldn't even say a prayer in the presence of an idol or graven image,

24:37

you see, which is very much against Mosaic law. So Jews were exempted from that and allowed to enforce the mosaic law in their own

24:44

territories. See how sensitive the Romans were to all this?

24:47

It was only the Jewish war itself that brought that to an end.

24:51

Warren: Okay, yeah. The Jews were monotheists in a world dominated

24:55

by polytheists, and there was a.

24:58

James: Natural conflict and their religious practice to make them separatists.

25:04

Romans said there were haters of all mankind in their antisemitic rants, but you'll notice

25:10

they can't eat with foreigners because they have kosher diet.

25:13

Foreigners for some Jews, were just impure.

25:16

They have strict sabbath observance. They have circumcision, which made it embarrassing and difficult for them to

25:22

participate in Greek athletic activities, for example, from way back.

25:27

So they had odd beliefs that made it difficult for them to assimilate or for woman's who were

25:35

interested in being Jewish to become Jewish.

25:38

What adult man would go through circumcision, for example? It was a hard sell feature.

25:44

So what Christianity seems to do is get rid of all of the while most distinctive elements of

25:50

Judaism are being knocked out of court.

25:53

It seems to be making a kind of messianic

25:55

Judaism, which makes it easy for Jews to assimilate into the Roman world and for Romans

26:00

who are interested in Jewish monotheism to dabble with it or go even further and absorb

26:07

it. Philosophical monotheism was on the rise since

26:10

Plato and neoplatonism synchronism of various religions was well underway at this time.

26:16

And so there were many Romans interested in monotheism, but they didn't want to go all

26:21

that far. So between the Gentiles who were interested in

26:25

Judaism and the Jews who were wanting to work with the Romans and assimilate into the Roman

26:30

world, christianity provided the perfect.

26:34

Blair: Okay, now let's go back a bit.

26:37

We mentioned the symbols, and I think we

26:40

talked briefly about the coinage.

26:46

Were there similarities between the Roman

26:48

coinage and religious symbols, as you say, the dolphin and the anchor?

26:53

James: Mr. Bago he was the guy.

26:57

I was skeptical we'd even find such an image,

27:00

but he found this image, and when I finally was able to pick my jaw up from the floor, he

27:07

showed me this image was astonishing. He did an inventory of ancient Roman pointage,

27:12

convinced that we would somewhere find physical evidence of our thesis.

27:16

Go. Mr. Fay. You're working, I believe.

27:21

Warren: Well, from the very beginning, actually, from that very first night, I was

27:27

determined to investigate Roman coinage because I thought that would be the most

27:35

unique type of evidence.

27:39

Temple temples can be demolished, of course.

27:42

Manuscripts can be lost, but coins are minted in the millions.

27:46

Every single time. They would put out, say, 6 million silver

27:50

coins in various different mints around the entire empire.

27:54

So I knew there was no way you could get rid of all those.

27:57

And it did take over 30 years.

28:00

It was the sort of like the final thing. My mother had gone to Rome, and she had brought back a souvenir from the catacombs of

28:08

St. Domatilla, and it was a picture of the anchors flanked by two fish.

28:16

And it was the famous Christian symbol from the earliest Christian catacombs in Rome.

28:23

So I was looking at this, and then meanwhile, I'm looking through Roman coins, roman coins,

28:27

palavian coins. And I keep seeing the dolphin wrapped around

28:31

the anchor, and I'm just not making a connection.

28:33

And here's this plaque that my mother had given me.

28:36

I've got it hanging on my wall. I finally just wait a minute.

28:40

That's it. That's it right there.

28:44

And so once we started looking into it, it was like an Easter egg hunt.

28:48

Both of us went off in different directions and kept finding dolphins and anchors and

28:52

dolphins and anchors throughout Christianity and throughout Flavian era.

28:58

And also another overlap. Dolphins and tridents were used by both the

29:02

Christians and the slavians. James: In the first two or 300 years of Christian history, it was far, far more common

29:09

to depict Jesus symbolically as an anchor, whereas a fish wrapped around an anchor than

29:13

it ever was the cross. We're all familiar with fish, and sometimes it

29:17

was a fish alone, sometimes it was a fish wrapped around an anchor.

29:22

A lot of times it was just the anchor with fish heading towards it.

29:25

You see, which I'm fishers of feeder.

29:28

I'll make you fishers of men. So the Christian converts are now civilized in terms of fish.

29:34

Martin: Like the bait. James: The bait perfect.

29:38

Martin: And then you could swim with the dolphins. Also, could you show the COVID of your book and back there and explain that?

29:46

James: I don't know how well, you can. Blair: See the COVID That looks good.

29:50

James: This is actually taken from a mosaic Mr. Bay discovered that was covered when

29:55

Pompeii was exploded in 79, eight in the midst of the Flavian era.

30:00

And we know because of recent earthquakes there.

30:02

It was a recent Flavian era mosaic taken from Herculaneum.

30:07

And here you have a remarkable thing.

30:10

Fish and people are both coming towards the

30:13

anchor. So in a totally pre Christian Flavian

30:17

symbology, what we're having is fish compared to people, all of them approaching the

30:22

salvation of the anchor.

30:25

Of course, it's universal symbol of safety.

30:28

So it was a specifically Flavian image that was used on mosaics.

30:34

Who knows what it represented? Apollo jesus, the flavians themselves.

30:39

What? But the point is that's distinctly Flavian

30:41

imagery, and the first time we see it on Roman coins is on coins of Titus under his brother

30:48

and successor. Those are discontinued. They're continued for a while and discontinued.

30:51

The only other time there was Roman use of that very image was under Hadrian during the

30:58

second Jewish revolt. And then, of course, it was not used at all by

31:02

any other emperors. And yet, in the very earliest physical

31:06

evidence of Christianity of any kind, the earliest physical evidence of Christianity,

31:10

any kind of those catacombs of Domatilla, and they are identified both as a Flavian site

31:16

burial site. While the inscription does say this is the

31:19

sepulcher of the Flavians right on the inscription, but it's identified symbolically

31:24

inside as both Christian and Flavian by the use of anchor and fish and another few symbols

31:32

that are used both by the palavians and pagans interestingly.

31:36

And are repeatedly used by early Christians in the catacombs.

31:40

Blair: Okay. Warren: One fascinating thing that we discovered was a marble facing from the

31:48

Colosseum of two dolphins wrapped around a trident.

31:52

Now, a couple of miles away, the Christians are using that symbol in the catacombs.

31:57

Why are they using a Roman symbol from the Colosseum to identify themselves only a few

32:04

miles away? This is the Colosseum where Christians were supposed to be thrown to the lions, and they're using the Roman symbol as their own in

32:11

their catacombs. It doesn't make sense. James: Well, there's Slavian Amphitheater itself announces that it was constructed from

32:16

the spoils of the Jewish war. The Flavian Amphitheater, built over Nero's

32:21

golden house in the wake of the Jewish war by the Flavia.

32:32

I did further research on Roman coinage, too, that I found absolutely.

32:36

I was actually writing a monograph on Roman propaganda at the time, including the coinage,

32:42

when Mr. Faye made the discovery.

32:44

You will find on first century Roman pointage,

32:47

the ideology of the New Testament. And I would just go that far.

32:52

Compassion, forgiveness. Concordia, Harmonia, PAX PAX, orbis terreum.

32:58

Peace on earth, goodwill, men.

33:00

We might translate all that, right.

33:02

Concordia. Harmonia. PAX. Orbis.

33:04

Terreum. Peace on earth, goodwill toward men.

33:07

We're about to celebrate Christmas. In Luke's famous Nativity story, the angels

33:11

announce peace on earth, goodwill toward man is what Jesus prays.

33:17

Warren: It's right on. James: Roman coins jiggling in pockets when the Gospels are being written.

33:27

Warren: We also found that Titus Flavius Clemens, another Flavian of that period, used

33:34

the anchor. The anchor is his symbol because supposedly

33:38

Domician executed him by tying an anchor around his neck and throwing him into the

33:43

ocean. A millstone around your neck that St. Clement

33:50

of Rome has an anchor to this day, on stained glass windows, you see him holding an anchor

33:55

instead of a cross. James: We walk into the Catholic for the documentarians.

34:01

They have a niche dedicated to St. Clement, and there he is with his anchor.

34:06

And his name was Titus Flavius Clemens.

34:08

He was a cousin of the emperor as a member of the emirate family.

34:11

He had married a granddaughter of Vestasian, a

34:14

niece of Titus, and it was her catacombs, her burial site.

34:19

Her body was later removed, but it was her burial site that became the earliest Christian

34:24

catacombs I e. The earliest physical evidence of Christianity that exists.

34:30

Blair: That's incredible. Warren: Like the granddaughter and niece of the Roman emperors.

34:34

James: The interesting thing is, even ancient pagan historians, one of them says that

34:39

Clemens was executed, quote, for adopting Jewish ways, and his wife was banished.

34:46

Wait, what? And his family emperors claimed to be the.

34:52

Real Jewish Messiahs, and they hired a Jew to do their propaganda.

34:57

They were very well aware of the messianic prophecies and the role there.

35:01

That's why they used it in their own propaganda.

35:04

I'm the Jewish Messiah. I'm the prince of peace who brought peace on

35:09

earth and goodwill toward men and became a world ruler.

35:13

And he had a son who was a son of God Savior, who was himself a Jewish messiah, who was the

35:20

dude who entered Jerusalem at 30, just like Jesus did, to fulfill the very prophecy Jesus

35:25

made as he's. Entering Jerusalem, jesus walks into the

35:30

temple and morally condemns it and starts physically attacking it, morally justifying

35:37

and physically commencing the Roman destruction to come.

35:41

When you look at all of these parallels and connections to the Flavians and the Jewish

35:45

war, it becomes absolutely impossible not to see the intimate connection.

35:52

The politics of the New Testament is radically clear.

35:55

Romans 13, one of the oldest sections of the New Testament, obey the Roman state as God's

36:01

appointed agents on earth, not just to practically get along and not we don't want to

36:07

cause trouble here. No, the Roman state are God's agent on earth.

36:13

They bring the sword to justice. That's god's sword of justice.

36:16

That's why rebellion is a sin. That's why paying your taxes is a moral

36:20

obligation, not just a practical good idea.

36:24

And then, of course, Jesus in the Gospels,

36:26

befriends tax collectors, impure people, says, Pay your taxes.

36:32

He says of a Roman centurion, I've not seen so much faith, not even among anyone in Israel.

36:38

So at this time of war with Roman the Jews, it's not just a Roman he praises, but a Roman

36:43

centurion, and he's got greater faith than any he knows.

36:48

Excuse me, I'm getting a little excited.

36:50

But you see what screams out as clearly Roman

36:54

propaganda over and over and over and over and over and over becomes on here on the season.

37:01

Put that together evidence the connections between early Christianity and Roman elites,

37:10

roman government elites, jews cooperating with the Roman, roman emperors themselves knew

37:16

about Roman religion, Jewish religion, and were using Jewish religion in their own

37:21

propaganda. Blair: Okay, well, gentlemen, I'm actually getting worse here, but I have one more

37:33

question. So both of you together, you can answer this

37:39

one at a time or whatever. What did you really hope to accomplish by

37:43

writing this book? What were your thoughts about putting things

37:48

together? Warren: Well, of course, truth is one of the main reasons that you want to know what really

37:57

is going on with our entire civilization.

38:00

And this is sort of a foundation that has had

38:04

a lot of downsides for Western civilization.

38:07

And so for the modern day in the 21st century,

38:12

I think it's really important for us to finally get these things settled and not have

38:17

some mystical question at the basis of everything that we're doing now in the modern

38:21

day. So, yeah, we were able demystifying these

38:27

relics which still dominate philosophy in the modern age.

38:33

We felt a very noble ambition.

38:38

Blair: You're here. James: What we say at the end of the documentary is true.

38:45

We have advanced morally, we really have over the years, and in some ways and in some ways,

38:54

we're still trapped by the ethics of the New Testament.

38:57

And we're using the ethics of the New Testament.

38:59

In effect, even secular people ateists don't question that Jesus was a valid moralist, a

39:05

good, good teacher of, you know, good ethics, and yet those ethics really aren't helpful in

39:12

the 21st century. You know, I believe that what we really did

39:19

was to expose the moral idealism of Christianity for what it really is.

39:25

If you want to continue to be a Roman slave, I mean, yeah, turn the other to any aggression,

39:31

even when you can fight back, you can't even run away or block the punch.

39:35

You got to say other side.

39:39

Or love your enemy. Submit to the evil doer blessed of the peacemaker.

39:45

We say on and on and on. Warren: Obey the emperor.

39:50

James: My goodness. I reject Christian morality, and we expose

39:57

Christian morality for what it was largely propaganda in those respects.

40:02

And if you want to continue to act like a Roman slave, you're free to do so.

40:07

Or you may want to question your philosophy.

40:10

Maybe you have to request the whole field of ethics that you were raised with if you're a Christian.

40:17

And so I was hoping to accomplish and I didn't realize that at first.

40:20

At first I thought it was just an interesting little thing.

40:25

But it indicates, I think, also Iron Rand's view that altruism is ultimately powerless

40:32

politically, which is a sacrifice being asked, was someone collecting sacrifices?

40:37

Now, Iran didn't know the relationship between Christian altruism and the politics of the

40:42

day, politics of slavery and tyranny.

40:45

And again, quite accidentally, I had no idea

40:48

that we would end up doing this. But I think we've vindicated ein Rand's view

40:52

that altruism is really a rationalization for power.

40:57

Martin: Yes, and then you have on the good note, but then and that could be a follow up

41:02

for next time about how the cross and the chiropracts came around.

41:08

And then if you want to have a crucifixion or hanging, as they say in Monte Python.

41:15

But also the serious thing that you should take the cross and feel guilty and so on.

41:23

But during this season, in English it's called Christmas, but in other languages, like in

41:30

Sweden, it's called yuval, like jewel tide.

41:33

So do you have any ending comment on that?

41:36

And also about this value for value, how we could support your great work here and the

41:42

documentary and the individuals behind the documentary, and how we could continue the

41:47

conversation about this. James: It's wonderful.

41:51

Paganism about Christmas still bleeds through,

41:54

doesn't it, in certain European cultures? Is there anything about an evergreen tree or

42:00

candles and lights or so much.

42:03

Warren: Salad, like a logi logi. Martin: Logi is a fireplace.

42:06

James: Right. Father Christmas or St. Nicholas?

42:08

I know it's based on Nicholas, but there's so much of Christmas.

42:13

The way it's celebrated in the west by Christians has absolutely nothing to do with

42:18

Christianity. It has more to do with the winter souls to

42:21

celebrations where the sun has reached its low point and now it's going to get beaten bigger.

42:25

Bigger and bigger. Greens ever greenness to see a symbol of life

42:29

through winter. It's all from Paganism.

42:32

Sorry? It's a seasonal thing long before

42:38

Christianity. That's why I celebrate Christmas.

42:41

But as to the rest, I'll let. Warren: Mr. Pagans well, I think you did a good job.

42:50

That sums it up. James: You asked the second part.

42:52

Right. Warren: The second part, which was I'm sorry, value.

42:58

Blair: Is that what you meant? Martin: And how we could continue the conversation and spread the good word about

43:04

your excellent work and the documentary and the individuals behind that documentary.

43:09

Warren: Of course, the book is available now and the documentary will become available in

43:15

other foreign markets outside of the United States.

43:18

Good. Progressively.

43:22

James: It's available on Amazon platforms shortly.

43:28

Blair: Yes. Good deal. Warren: Right.

43:32

Blair: What else are you working on right now, if anything?

43:37

James: Mr. Faye is always writing something I'm hoping to collaborate with.

43:43

Now, as I say, there's a growing number of scholars.

43:45

We have a school now, we believe in Roman providence and working on a book, historical

43:51

book, I hope, with them. And more than that, I want to back up and

43:55

write generally about Christianity and religion in general.

43:59

And pluses and minuses, as Mr. Faye indicates.

44:04

Mostly minuses, because this opens up a whole

44:08

new understanding, I think, of Western religion.

44:11

But Mr. Faye, as I say, is the greatest novelist of our time, and he's always working

44:15

on something brilliant.

44:18

Please check out Magenta.

44:20

Please check out his other novels.

44:24

Some of the finest philosophical writing you'll ever come across is in Mr. Cray's work.

44:30

I hope that's well.

44:32

Warren: Thank you. I'm working right now on the third and final

44:37

book of my fragment series, which is a science thriller, and it's called Symbiont.

44:44

And that will finish off that trilogy, which is continuously being shot in a policy.

44:54

And then also, I did just finish Magenta, and that is a sort of 1984 orwellian 21st century

45:01

take on oppression and high tech oppression and fascinatingly, that book.

45:13

You just could not get that. I had sent that to my publisher of

45:17

Pandemonium, one of my novels, and he said, oh, it's really well done.

45:22

I just don't think it's the right time for Dystopia novel.

45:28

And at that particular day, in that moment, george Orwell's 1984 was number one at Amazon

45:34

after 75 years. James: And I couldn't help it.

45:38

Warren: Not the right moment for Dystopian novel, I guess nobody's in the mood.

45:44

James: I put government lockdowns on COVID and stuff.

45:49

Warren: Yeah, he would. But anyway, so I didn't want it to be

45:54

adulterated in any way. So I just published it myself.

45:57

It's available through Amazon, everywhere.

46:02

James: He said. Books published by Random House in McMillan.

46:05

And I think Symbiote will probably get a really good publisher as well.

46:09

Kathy has done every kind of writing in every area.

46:12

And what's so perverse to me is that what maybe his philosophical magnum opus he's

46:19

publishing himself, and he, you know.

46:22

Warren: Yeah, you can't get a book yeah.

46:25

There's no way you can publish a book like that through it through a major publisher anymore.

46:30

And, I mean, if you think about it, where are the great novels today?

46:35

Blair: There aren't any. James: It's a sad commentary.

46:39

There are philosophical novels, isn't it?

46:42

I'm surprised the degree of philosophy you managed to put into your thrillers appeared on

46:50

the New York Times bestseller list. He manages to get in philosophy in those as

46:53

well. Anything he writes, ladies and gentlemen, this

46:56

audience would be interested in. Blair: Gentlemen, James Warren.

47:04

Thanks for manning the fox hole with us today.

47:07

Absolutely appreciate it very much.

47:11

I have to sign off or I'm just going to go

47:15

horrible coughing fit. So, gentlemen, take care.

47:19

Martin, can you handle it? Yeah.

47:22

All right. Bye, Reben.

47:25

Warren: Okay. Bye, Blair. Blair: Wait a second.

47:29

Stop.