0:06

If you ask me to tell you what's wrong with India and

0:08

how we should reform our country, I could give you a big

0:10

laundry list. After writing about this subject

0:13

for over 20 years, after reading so many

0:15

books, absorbing so many papers, speaking to so

0:17

many experts, writing so many operands and columns,

0:19

I can fill you in at the level

0:21

of policy. Spoiler alert, some of it will

0:23

involve the state getting out of the way,

0:25

some of it will involve the state doing

0:27

the few things it should do properly. However,

0:29

that doesn't do much to actually solve

0:31

our problems. I can tell

0:34

you that for ABC problem we should implement

0:36

XYZ solution, but there is still the messy

0:38

job of who's going to get it done.

0:40

Politicians have their own set of incentives, bureaucrats

0:43

have theirs, and change at the level of

0:45

a state can often happen at a glacial

0:47

pace. As the saying goes, paradigms

0:49

change one funeral at a time. That

0:52

is why we should cherish those among us

0:54

who actually dive into this hardest layer of

0:56

problem solving, getting change implemented. And when it

0:59

involves a state, there is a meta aspect

1:01

to this. You can get the state to

1:03

agree to go in a particular direction, but

1:05

what if it simply doesn't have the capacity

1:07

to do so? Don't we need to build

1:10

that first? And how do we do that,

1:12

since we know from experience that just throwing

1:14

money at the problems isn't enough? It's

1:17

a wicked problem, but we need to try to

1:19

solve it. Welcome

1:24

to the Scene and the Unseen,

1:26

our weekly podcast on economics, politics,

1:28

and behavioral science. Please

1:30

welcome your host, Amit Barma. Welcome

1:38

to the Scene and the Unseen. My guest today is

1:40

Karthik Mulyadharan, who first came on the show for episode

1:42

185, which was a cult

1:44

episode on education, and for some time

1:47

my most popular. He then did two

1:49

further episodes on healthcare and state capacity,

1:51

and all of it was part of

1:53

writing this gigantic book called Accelerating India's

1:55

Development, which is out on the stands

1:58

now. This is a comprehensive, master

2:00

class on how to reform India from the point

2:02

of view of someone who has not just dabbled

2:04

in theory but has done a lot of field

2:06

work and now works with a bunch of governments

2:08

to make things happen at the level of states.

2:11

Each of our first three episodes together were

2:13

on one chapter of his book and in

2:15

this episode we will tackle two chapters. We

2:18

will tackle the difficult subject of the bureaucracy

2:20

and personnel management. Now, while this book is

2:22

an 800 page book, so big that you

2:24

can actually write mudleedhar and horizontally on the

2:26

spine, it is not heavy

2:28

reading at all. The actual text is 600

2:30

pages, the font size is large, it is

2:33

easy to read and the content is masterfully

2:35

broken up into essay sized chunks that are

2:37

easy to digest. It is an essential book

2:39

to understand economics and policy in India. I

2:42

recommend you pick it up. You can dip

2:44

into it once in a while though I

2:46

suspect that once you start reading it you

2:48

won't be able to stop. But

2:51

before you start that, listen to our latest

2:53

conversation. After a quick commercial break. Hey,

2:58

the music started and this sounds like a

3:00

commercial but it isn't. It is a plea

3:03

from me to check out my latest label

3:05

with love, a YouTube show I am co-hosting

3:07

with my good friend the brilliant Ajay Shah.

3:09

We have called it Everything is Everything. Every

3:12

week we will speak for about an hour

3:14

on things we care about, from the profound

3:16

to the profane, from the exalted to the

3:18

everyday. We range widely across subjects and we

3:21

bring multiple frames with which we try to

3:23

understand the world. Join us

3:25

on our journey and please support us by

3:27

subscribing to our YouTube channel at

3:29

youtube.com/Amit Varma, A-M-I-T-V-A-R-M-A. The show

3:32

is called Everything is Everything.

3:34

Please do check it out.

3:42

Karthik, welcome to the scene on the unseen. Welcome.

3:44

Cut it man. I

3:46

am going to cut it. I am going to say

3:48

it again but I am not going to cut this.

3:50

Welcome to the scene on the unseen. Good to see

3:52

you in person. I think this is the first time

3:55

we are recording in person, right? Yeah, but we met

3:57

once before and I must tell my listeners that Karthik

3:59

just sauntered to the house and he said I

4:01

don't want to record, I want to chill with you,

4:03

let's have a good time, this doesn't feel like work,

4:05

what the fuck and I completely buy that and

4:08

therefore I am going to go beyond work and

4:10

I am going to reveal an important truth about

4:12

you to my listeners, are you ready for this?

4:15

It's not very flattering for you

4:17

which is that for you

4:19

know many people would think that Karthik Mulyadharan is

4:21

one of the smartest men in India, I would

4:23

like to inform them he is not even the

4:25

smartest man in his own home because I have

4:28

had the pleasure of meeting Karthik's son, this

4:31

remarkable man about 3 foot taller than

4:33

Karthik and incredibly,

4:36

incredibly precocious and I was super impressed

4:38

and still a teenager if I recall

4:40

correctly and I want to actually start

4:43

by asking you that in

4:45

the course of your life how

4:48

did parenthood change your incentives and

4:50

the way you looked at the

4:52

world and your mental ecosystem, you

4:54

know, did it have a big

4:56

impact on you because when one

4:58

is young it's you going from

5:00

short term gratification to short term

5:02

gratification but I am guessing with

5:04

no personal experience in this matter

5:06

that becoming a parent kind of

5:08

gives you a longer horizon and

5:10

might make you more open

5:12

to playing the long game. You

5:14

know what I mean so first I must say this is a

5:16

complete curve ball, I had no idea you know there's a question

5:18

so this is kind of off the cuff, no

5:21

see I think I mean to be honest in

5:23

terms of parenthood and never it

5:25

was not over deliberate in the sense that it

5:27

just felt like there was a time when it

5:29

was right, right. So the good

5:31

time to tell you a joke actually you

5:33

know so the joke is so we had

5:36

our son six years after we married, we

5:38

married couple of years into my PhD so

5:40

three years later in good you know Indian uncle fashion

5:42

like you know one of my uncle calls and

5:44

says you know but it's been

5:47

three years like you know I mean so you

5:50

know where are the kids and I'm like you know

5:52

touch out don't worry everything's good like you know let

5:54

me finish this PhD I've got one more year and

5:56

then you know we'll take care of it and

5:59

then he says to me like Tamil, you know using the

6:01

same words I used with you in the first one which is

6:03

like Mukhtar which is like your dumb, dumb, dumb weight. You

6:05

must be the only idiot in the world who thinks you need a

6:07

PhD to have a baby. So

6:16

anyway like you know I mean I don't

6:18

think it was over deliberate in any way like

6:20

it just felt like a right of just a

6:22

right of passage in some ways you know. So

6:24

I don't think we over thought it but you

6:26

know it's been wonderful like you know with all

6:28

of the all of the minor

6:31

irritations and the grand joys right. So

6:33

right now I would say the most important thing

6:36

my son does for me is he forces me to

6:38

get out of the house. So we have moved back

6:40

to India right as you know and so the most

6:42

frustrating part of being back in India right now is

6:45

that normally I like to be out but I've been

6:47

in a cave writing right and he's just finishing this

6:49

book but he is so into Indian history and culture

6:51

that he's the one who makes all the travel plans

6:53

he says let's go here, let's go here and you

6:55

know he had a school trip to Himachal two weeks

6:57

ago and he said we're flying to Chandigarh. So

6:59

it's like folks why don't you come to Chandigarh we'll go to

7:02

Amritsar and so I'd never been and thanks to my son we

7:04

were at the golden temple two weeks ago so that was wonderful.

7:07

Amazing and let's talk about the cave now.

7:10

You know the previous times that I've met you

7:12

the book was just a glimmer in the eye

7:15

which kind of got more and more concrete as

7:17

the episodes rolled by and I remember in episode

7:20

290 you actually promised me he said for you Amit I

7:22

will write the book and I'm just I'm going to pretend

7:24

it's just for me. So

7:27

I want to know about this process of writing

7:29

because it feels like this

7:31

must be almost like having another baby

7:33

in the sense that is completely different from all

7:35

the other writing that you've done. So

7:38

give me a sense of the contrast and

7:40

what that transition took for you because you're

7:42

used to writing these really rigorous papers they

7:44

have their own methodology they have their own

7:46

flow they have their own voice and suddenly

7:48

there is this book project that you're taking

7:50

on which as you like to say it's

7:52

not it's like almost two books in one

7:54

and I would go further and say that

7:56

it's actually many books in one because each

7:58

of the chapters is incredibly detailed

8:00

and the density is incredible in a good

8:03

way, not in a bad way of dense

8:05

prose, but in terms of the insight is

8:07

dense, the ideas are dense. So it's almost

8:09

like you're taking a lifetimes work of worth

8:11

and then you're putting it into the structure

8:13

and then because you're writing the book, you're

8:15

going deeper into each of those subjects and

8:18

so on and so forth. So tell me what that

8:20

process was like of coming to the

8:22

book and you know, giving birth to it as

8:25

a per. Yeah, I mean, so again, I think

8:27

I said this in the very first episode, right?

8:29

I think the closest analogy to this process is

8:31

of a sculptor, right? I mean that you start

8:33

with a block of marble and you have some

8:35

broad idea of what this is going to look

8:37

like, right? I mean, but then you kind of

8:39

you carve your chisel, you kind of say this

8:41

is not quite working, you do this, you do

8:43

that. So I think that, but that's I think

8:45

standard for most writers. I think what's different about

8:47

this book is it doesn't easily

8:50

fit any genre. Okay, so it's not

8:52

like I modeled it on any particular

8:54

book. I just said, listen, I have

8:56

things that I feel are worth sharing,

8:58

right? And like, because

9:01

these papers, you generate so much insight in learning from

9:03

the time in the field, from the time talking to

9:05

counterparts is like, and all of that is tacit knowledge

9:07

that doesn't show up in the paper that you feel

9:09

that there is a case for putting

9:11

this together. And like I said, the

9:14

papers are written for peers or academics and PhD

9:16

students. So even my papers are usually

9:18

pretty accessible, like, you know, the the

9:20

core, they're not super technical, they're not

9:22

super math, they're written pretty clearly. I

9:25

think the goal that way was

9:27

to just I think it's threefold. And I say

9:29

this in the preface, right, that there is part

9:31

of the, the part of

9:33

the book that's a conversation within academic

9:36

economics and development economics in particular. So

9:38

there is, I think, a contribution there

9:40

academically, but which is more of a

9:42

synthesis rather than kind of primary stuff. And we can talk

9:44

about what I think the academic contribution of the book is.

9:47

But the second is really about public education,

9:49

right? I mean, this really is written for

9:51

the non-technical reader, maybe not a high school

9:54

student, but maybe precocious high school students, but any

9:56

college graduate student in any subject right should be able

9:58

to pick it up. understand it.

10:01

And then the last is policy. I mean that

10:03

I think there are, there is

10:05

no shortage of kind of people who say

10:07

this is a problem, that is a problem,

10:10

you know, this is not working, that is

10:12

not working. I think the really hard part

10:14

is saying, how do you then make progress

10:17

given all the constraints we face, right? We've

10:19

got political constraints, bureaucratic constraints, judicial constraints, social

10:21

constraints, fiscal constraints. And you know,

10:23

it's just, it's a wicked problem, many

10:25

of these things of building a more effective

10:27

state. So I think what I'm

10:30

particularly, you know, happy about and what I think

10:32

government counterparts who read the book have also appreciated

10:34

is the fact that each chapter is

10:36

really two halves, right? There is a first

10:38

half, which I call the science, which is,

10:40

you know, synthesizing the research. And so it's

10:42

interesting, right? There's so many similarities with I

10:44

think how Ajay's approach, this

10:47

is art and science, and I'm calling it science

10:49

and engineering, right? I mean, though there is an

10:51

art, which I'll come to, which is the seed,

10:53

just part of the story. But I think the

10:55

science is young. Here are the facts, here is

10:57

the research, here are some principles, right? And either

10:59

help us understand these complex issues. And then given

11:01

all of this, right, the second part is what

11:03

I call systems engineering, right? I mean, which is

11:05

how do you then design better systems to make

11:08

the state function more effectively. And, and I

11:10

do that in every chapter. All right, means

11:12

every chapter has that flavor. So it's been

11:14

fun in the sense that, because

11:16

it's not just regurgitating, if all I was

11:19

doing was summarizing papers for a non-technical audience,

11:21

that's not fun, right? This is a new

11:23

intellectual creation, because the synthesis is its own

11:25

kind of new intellectual product. But it's a

11:27

different kind of product. Okay, so it's been

11:30

fun. I think that when when I when

11:32

first came on the show and talked about

11:34

the book, I think the original proposal was

11:36

in the range of 120,000 words over about

11:40

three years. And then, you know, as you like

11:42

to say, and I hold you partly responsible, right,

11:44

it expanded, it expanded to the for a final

11:46

product, like, you know, that's about 800 pages.

11:49

But again, to your listeners, that shouldn't scare

11:51

you. It's a 600 page book at about

11:53

200 pages of notes and references. So it's

11:56

designed again, to be both accessible to any

11:58

citizen who's interested, but also be

12:00

available as a long term reference. So, the hope is

12:02

that the book with a shelf life of about 10

12:04

years right where you can keep going back to it.

12:06

So, yeah I think you know that is the process,

12:09

it is not even the process, it is more kind

12:11

of what I set out to do and then the

12:13

actual process is not that different I guess you know

12:15

you just have to kind of shut out distractions and

12:17

the way I have used my sabbatical essentially right and

12:20

I mean so and I say this in the preface

12:22

I am grateful that I am an academic because my

12:24

job this is this is the job. Now, that is

12:26

not the full job because the normal academic job is

12:28

you write research papers not books but that is why

12:30

you have sabbatical right. So, the sabbatical so

12:33

my routines are usually you know

12:35

mornings 8 to 1 is kind of my just

12:37

deep work time right I mean so no calls

12:39

typically like you know just that is when I

12:41

am putting if I get 4 good

12:44

hours a day that means you are putting

12:46

rounds on the board right and then the

12:48

afternoons is usually when I would do calls

12:50

and just you know other I mean there

12:52

are other commitments I have right I mean

12:54

orgs and meetings and stuff and then evenings

12:56

a couple of hours is when I do

12:58

my calls with the US right whether my

13:00

PhD students or my co-authors and stuff like

13:02

that. So, yeah that is kind of roughly

13:04

the roughly the rhythm and the routine it

13:06

helps that I have no commute right I

13:08

mean commutes which is driving nuts and I

13:10

just shut out anything in that is non-essential

13:12

to be focusing on this. So,

13:15

I think when we last spoke in August

13:17

2022 I thought we were 6 months

13:19

away right but it ended up we

13:22

would it was true that we were 6 months away

13:24

in terms of I completed the draft and I turned

13:26

into penguin in March and they were actually quite happy

13:28

to go with it. But I think mulling

13:30

over the whole thing I needed to

13:32

come back and do another full round of

13:34

editing because till then I had only edited

13:36

individual chapters I had not reloaded

13:39

the entire book into working memory right

13:41

and re-optimized things across and that took

13:43

me another 6 months right. So, that

13:45

was the process from July to December

13:47

last year and then we went into production and here

13:49

we are. You spoke about you

13:52

know commute driving your notes at this point

13:54

I must again tell our gentle listeners a

13:56

story that in Chennai Karthik has a driver

13:58

whose name is Natrajan and when he gets

14:00

into the car he says

14:02

drive me nuts. It's not

14:04

true, it should be true

14:06

right? I

14:09

don't go anywhere, I just sit at home and write. Okay,

14:12

so you drive yourself nuts as

14:14

it were and I must

14:16

also sincerely hope that when you spoke about

14:18

expanding you made a joke about my book

14:20

expanded because of Hamid. I hope you were

14:23

referring to the length of my episode when you weren't

14:25

chat shaming me. Never be. No,

14:28

you talked about the phases of the episodes

14:30

and I think and to your listeners, this

14:33

is a book that in the acknowledgement has an

14:35

entire paragraph. I've been thanking not

14:37

just Amitarma but his listeners and partly

14:39

because I think the

14:43

positive reactions to the first and second podcast I

14:45

think really helped because single authored book writing is

14:47

an incredibly lonely process. Okay, so I think the

14:49

biggest doubt in this whole thing is like you're

14:51

doing all of this work, like to know who's

14:53

going to read it and so yeah, that was

14:55

very helpful. So thank you, thank you gentle listeners.

14:58

I mean, I and my listeners, I'm sure are glad

15:00

to play a part, however small because it's

15:02

an incredible book in our service to the

15:04

nation. In your book you've quoted

15:06

Einstein where he says everything should

15:09

be as simple as possible but

15:11

no simpler. Right, and I love

15:13

that. It's a great sort of manifesto for how

15:15

you write a book and how you keep the

15:17

language elsewhere. I think you quoted from someone from

15:19

one of my episodes at a launch yesterday and

15:21

you said that, hey, it should be, the prose

15:23

should be so simple that it's enchanted to the

15:25

end. And I think you've told me that a

15:27

tented student can understand it but no expert should

15:29

find something wrong in it. Right, and you've achieved

15:31

those magnificently but tell me about how

15:33

the process of that was and

15:36

did you have any role models in

15:38

terms of people who can write about complex subjects

15:41

in simple language which everyone can understand. No,

15:43

so I'll tell you the problem. The honest answer is there

15:45

was no role model, right? I mean, I just kind of,

15:48

so the good news is I am a

15:50

good writer, at least I'm a clear communicator, right? So

15:52

the writing still takes, I'm a slow

15:54

writer, but I'm a clear communicator. So,

15:56

and I've written at least 25 operas,

15:59

right? So, at

16:01

one level, it's almost like every subsection of the

16:03

book is like an op-ed, right? It means so

16:05

it's like 200 op-eds now. And

16:08

so in that sense, the basic structure

16:10

of how I write, right, which is

16:12

to say, here is the issue, here

16:14

are the fundamental principles, here are the

16:16

tensions that go both ways. This is

16:18

why Empytics matters. Here is what the

16:20

evidence says. Given what the evidence says,

16:22

that can mean how should we lean

16:24

in these kind of, you know, two

16:27

conceptually equally viable directions, right? So, I think

16:29

all of that is just part of how I've,

16:32

you know, how I've approached just

16:34

not just research, but communication in general or teaching. I think

16:36

like, you know, being a teacher then really helps because a

16:38

big part of that is simplifying and

16:41

getting the essence of these ideas out to students.

16:43

Now in the writing process, I think most important

16:45

part of the process I did. So

16:48

I've had an outstanding team. Okay. So

16:51

again, at the end of this process, I feel like a bit like,

16:53

you know, like you have a movie and then you give all the

16:55

credit to like, you know, one or two people, but it's a team.

16:58

And this is a team effort. There have been

17:00

research assistants like who've helped with different chapters. There's,

17:02

you know, I have a research director who's

17:04

been with me for over six years. He

17:06

has a Harvard PhD. Okay. So

17:09

this is like, just absolutely top talent. Like, I

17:11

mean, who's been willing to kind of, you know,

17:13

work along this project. I had an outstanding kind

17:15

of editorial support. And

17:18

this was from somebody who actually worked with Ramit

17:20

at Mint, right? Like, came on the data journalism

17:22

page. So this is Vishnu who now writes for

17:24

The Economist. So, you know, he spent

17:27

time with me. But again, what we were doing was

17:29

just kind of with this team, Burak,

17:31

who's my research director in Vishnu, you know, in

17:33

the early stages, I would outline, I would outline,

17:35

we would brainstorm, you know, so those first eight

17:37

or 10 things is here are the ideas. Here's

17:40

what I'm trying to say. How is it landing

17:42

for you? Right? Like, I mean, as

17:44

a reader, and then so that's the team aspect of this.

17:46

And then I would go into the cave and say, okay,

17:48

like, you know, here's the structure. Now let's write. So I

17:50

think that process, we must have done about eight or 10

17:52

rounds, right? And need to get to a draft. And

17:55

then I think the most important part of the process

17:57

was just sharing chapters like, you know, with few trusted

17:59

people. in different walks of life, right?

18:01

So it's been read by IAS offices,

18:04

it's been read by academics, it's been read by a

18:06

couple of civil society people, it's been read by people

18:09

who are in the tech world, right?

18:11

So the whole idea is that, am

18:13

I writing in a way that is

18:15

reaching these audiences? And if there's any

18:18

jargon, anything that, oh, this is not

18:20

quite making sense, then there would be

18:22

that feedback, right? So that's then the

18:24

process of kind of iterating. And I

18:27

would send more and more polished drafts to kind of

18:29

more and more, I would say, senior

18:32

people. So people like Devesh Kapoor

18:34

and Lanpichit, who are probably the two great world

18:36

gurus on state capacity, saw the N minus one

18:39

draft, right? Like, I mean, when I was almost

18:41

ready to get it done. So yeah, so that's

18:43

the process. So anything, and again,

18:45

sorry, being an academic just means that you have access

18:48

to networks of people who are experts, like I mean,

18:50

who will be willing to read like a chapter. I

18:52

mean, very few people read the entire book and they

18:54

are thanked separately, like I mean, but as special as,

18:56

but a lot of people would read individual chapters, right?

18:58

And then come back with comments. Yeah, I

19:00

mean, I did go through your acknowledgments where you thank

19:02

all these people, but I must confess that I couldn't

19:04

get past one para, which I read a few times.

19:06

So, and you know, this reminds me of that phrase

19:08

standing on the shoulders of giants. And I just remembered

19:11

this joke someone told me the other day, I don't even

19:13

know if it's a joke. I mean, it's a great quip

19:15

by somebody and I forget who and what the context was,

19:17

but there was this guy complaining that I couldn't get far

19:20

in life at all because giants were standing on my shoulder.

19:23

Yes. It

19:28

reminds me of the joke we did last time, right? About normally

19:30

you say the early bird gets the worm, but

19:33

the early worm gets eaten. Yeah,

19:35

yeah, you got it. Yeah, yeah,

19:37

don't wake up early people. Yeah, why am I saying that?

19:39

I'm trying to wake up early these days. So

19:42

my next question is this, that there

19:45

are two aspects from what I can see in

19:47

which you're not the typical academic. One

19:50

of them is a multidisciplinary approach

19:52

you take. Like early in your

19:54

book, you speak about how you've

19:56

got insights and perspectives from ethics,

19:58

politics, sociology, psychology, management. And these

20:00

are visible in the book if you look

20:02

closely enough, they are not in an overt way. And

20:05

that's great because many economists just get stuck

20:07

in silos or they get stuck in their

20:09

own specialization and that is the only frame

20:11

through which they look at the world and

20:13

you have these various other frames and you

20:15

know that brings something to the work. And

20:17

the second thing is that and this is a

20:20

phrase I learned from my friend Vasanthar, academic, right?

20:22

You are a academic, you are both in

20:24

a sense a practitioner and an academic where

20:26

you are not only studying economics but you

20:29

are actually working and perhaps I will ask you

20:31

to talk about sieges after this as well but you are

20:33

actually working actively with state governments

20:35

especially but you know with any government that

20:37

will listen to you to actually you know

20:39

implement some of these and understand problems on

20:41

the ground which to me gives your writing

20:43

a whole new flavour because frankly by now

20:46

after 20 years of reading such stuff and

20:48

thinking about it, if you know I could

20:50

write a book about what's wrong with the

20:52

country across each of these chapters, right? That's

20:54

not the big deal though you have done

20:56

it far better than most people have read

20:58

in the past but what is

21:00

truly valuable is a the

21:03

depth of your analysis on why things are the way

21:05

they are and b the solutions that you are proposing

21:07

which come from the work that you have done on

21:09

the ground. So I want to

21:11

sort of ask you to think about these

21:13

two aspects. One is a multidisciplinary aspect where

21:15

all these other fields inform and

21:17

two how much of

21:19

depth to your thinking was

21:22

brought in by your work

21:24

as a precademic because like

21:26

you said earlier you know

21:28

this is not just a

21:30

regurgitation of different ideas. There is synthesis and

21:32

there are new ideas for example something I will

21:34

ask you to speak about briefly later is what

21:36

you call your third way you know there is

21:38

a traditional way that development economists

21:41

look at state capacity, there is a jogaru

21:43

way that tries to deal with the shortfalls

21:45

of that and then there is your third

21:47

way and your third way it fell to

21:49

me from whatever I have read is completely

21:51

original and is obviously completely coming from experience

21:54

right the angles that you have taken are

21:56

just completely you. So tell me a little

21:58

bit about you know all of. this

22:00

about how your how different

22:02

disciplines and being on the ground shaped your thinking

22:04

is it a process that you observed in yourself

22:06

do you look back 20 years

22:09

later on a younger Karthik and say I like question if

22:11

at a school you know give me a sense

22:13

of that. Again you know I think that

22:15

it's yeah there's a lot there's

22:17

a lot to unpack I think I mean so one

22:19

of the things which I value the most from what

22:21

I think a couple of my colleagues read the book

22:23

and this is I think yeah I've actually this Pauline

22:25

house like you know is a founder of GiveDirectly and

22:28

he read the intro and he said you know the best thing is this

22:30

is you that is just an authenticity right like I

22:32

mean and that I think is in the end I

22:34

think the most important thing right you can't be everything

22:36

to everything you have to be who you are and

22:38

I think you picked on exactly you know

22:40

I don't want to say unique I mean because I'm sure

22:42

there are other people with similar motivations but I think

22:46

you can't fake it right let's put it that

22:48

way and I've said this in the first episode

22:50

that I got into economics at the age of

22:52

16 right partly studying you know a little bit

22:55

seeing the economic reforms going to Singapore and

22:57

and these things just have deep

22:59

both conscious and subconscious you know impacts

23:01

right which is this is

23:03

old joke about India and China right which

23:05

is that India has development economists and China

23:07

has development okay and

23:10

so I mean and I think I mean

23:12

and some of that frankly like I mean reflects

23:14

I think an overly ivory tower like you know

23:16

a mean sense of economics it's not to say

23:19

that people were not motivated by real world stuff

23:21

right but it is that the skill

23:23

set required to do cutting-edge research is very different

23:25

from the skill set required to roll up your

23:27

sleeves and and change things and they're all very

23:30

different temperaments right like I mean it's what I

23:32

was saying yesterday you know in the in

23:34

the event is that the skills required

23:36

to win elections are very different from the skills

23:38

required to govern very different tools the skills required

23:41

to design a state right so I think sometimes

23:43

it's unfair to ask academics so so you know

23:45

before before we kind of put even more pressure

23:47

on young academics to say oh you need to

23:49

not just do good research you need to go

23:52

and change the world you know there's I think

23:54

that there was a book I can't there was

23:56

an article in the Washington Post many years ago

23:58

I think about So, people critiquing happily after to

24:00

kill a mockingbird like you know for saying that

24:03

it was not enough to just write that you

24:05

also had to go do something about it. But

24:07

I think part of the response

24:09

was that right good writing, good literature is

24:11

incredibly hard and so and so is good

24:14

research. So, I think sometimes it's not productive

24:16

to kind of add the burden like I'm

24:18

saying okay now you also go change the

24:20

world like I mean to the researcher. I

24:22

think I have been fortunate in

24:24

the sense that the motivation for the research

24:26

has always been the real world. So, it's

24:29

not in kind of so people come

24:31

up with research questions sometimes internally from

24:33

the literature okay saying I have studied

24:35

a bunch of stuff in this model

24:37

this assumption if I tweak this what

24:39

will happen okay. So, but that is

24:41

a class of coming up with research

24:43

ideas that are very internally self-referential to

24:45

where the profession is okay. But if

24:47

the motivation for your research is coming

24:49

from it's always been right I mean

24:51

you go to Singapore you say okay what

24:54

can a country do in terms of better

24:56

governance and better policy right mean that can

24:58

accelerate the transformation of people's lives right. So,

25:00

that's kind of and then but the other thing like I said

25:02

that came from Singapore was very healthy respect for pragmatism

25:04

right mean and so and for just getting things

25:07

done and so this respect for the private sector.

25:09

So, that way I think what's been different about

25:11

my academic journey is having those two years in

25:13

the private sector. But with a

25:15

very clear understanding that I am there that

25:18

the problem with the private sector beyond the point not

25:20

the it's not a problem the private sector problem for

25:23

me in the private sector is at the end of

25:25

the day you're still kind of a mercenary fire if

25:27

you're a consultant or whatever right. But what I cared

25:29

about was learning how private capital thinks learning to respect

25:31

kind of the implementation capacities of the private sector and

25:33

say how do you use that in the public interest

25:36

okay. So, that journey I think is just kind of

25:38

that's where the academic comes from right that the academic

25:40

part is motivated by saying if I was to advise

25:42

a minister on what to do do do I know

25:44

what to tell him or her to do and if

25:46

I don't then that tells me what kind of research

25:49

I need to do right means so and then I

25:51

think when you do the research I mean that is

25:53

still who I am right. I mean I am not

25:55

kind of a think tanker or a policy analyst who

25:57

is just kind of synthesizing and writing notes. The

26:00

point about just doing good literature is hard, doing

26:02

good research is hard. So that is the core,

26:04

right? Where you spend your time and cut your

26:06

teeth is the methodological stuff, just

26:09

the rigor of experimental design, the measurement, the

26:11

analysis, the interpretations, mechanisms, you know, pressure testing.

26:13

I will give you an example of how

26:15

this plays out in the book, right? So

26:17

the chapter on federalism, for example, you know,

26:19

there is a discussion in different ways about

26:21

how we are over centralized. And then when

26:24

I go from there to kind of the

26:26

reform ideas, right, where I talk about, you

26:28

know, we should be thinking about smaller units

26:30

of governance in multiple levels, okay, saying whether

26:32

it's states, whether it's blocks or whether it's

26:34

even GPs. And what's

26:36

interesting is there are research papers on each of

26:38

these things, right? And so you're able to say,

26:40

okay, here are studies that looked at what happened,

26:43

right? Like after the bifurcation of these states, here

26:45

is what happened, you know, there's

26:47

this very nice and important reform in Andhra Pradesh

26:49

that N.T. Ramara did in the mid

26:51

80s, where essentially as a part of

26:54

kind of bringing government closer to people, they went

26:56

from blocks to mandals, okay? So the average block

26:58

in most Indian states has about 250,000 people. Mandals

27:02

have about 60 to 75,000. So there's

27:04

about four times as many, and that

27:06

reduces, brings government closer to people. And

27:09

the PhD student of mine, like me who did dissertation

27:12

on actually documenting kind of the impact of

27:14

that by looking at there'll be villages near

27:16

the border of these that have now because

27:19

of the change come much closer to

27:21

their block headquarters and finds like a significant improvement

27:23

over time in the provision of public goods, right?

27:25

And then there's this other beautiful paper, very

27:28

recently, in fact, it's I think, revised and resubmitted

27:30

the American Economic Review, looking at similar

27:32

reform in UP, where it was not

27:34

a reform, but I think that this

27:36

idea that said that GP, if it's

27:38

less than 1000 people will be

27:40

if a village is less than 1000, it will be

27:42

clubbed with other villages to form a larger GP. But

27:45

if you're just about 1000, you get your own GP.

27:47

Okay, so you therefore get this kind of regression discontinuity

27:49

as a way of saying what happens to governance outcomes

27:51

when you have a smaller GP that's closer to 1000

27:53

as opposed to 3000. It's

27:56

amazing, right? The paper finds that

27:58

governance improves on like every measure. right?

28:00

You get better implementation of

28:02

schemes, you get less corrupt politicians,

28:04

you get more citizen engagement. And

28:06

so that's kind of how you take, okay, there is

28:08

research, but this is why it matters, right? So that's

28:11

in a way, I think encapsulates the value of the

28:13

book, which is there's outstanding research that's happened in the

28:15

past 20 years, right? So I think it's very easy.

28:17

And I've heard many of your episodes where you do

28:19

worry about academia being a circle jerk. Listen, every profession

28:22

has its pathologies, like, you know, but in

28:24

the grand scheme of things, like I said, and this is Ajay

28:26

said this too, right? Most human progress, right,

28:28

I mean, comes from the creation of new knowledge, the

28:30

transmission of that knowledge and the action of that knowledge,

28:32

right? So if you didn't think about the arc of

28:34

my own career, there's like about 20 years as

28:37

a core researcher, right? I mean, that is overweight,

28:39

but spending most of your time creating new knowledge,

28:41

the book is kind of the attempt to do

28:44

like a broader synthesis. And then what we're doing

28:46

with sieges is then kind of the downstream part

28:48

of saying, okay, how do you actually help make

28:50

some of these things happen? But yeah, so that's,

28:52

that's, that's, that's the pracademic. And you know, that's

28:54

what I do. So, again, I had

28:56

a great episode of everything is everything called fixing the

28:59

knowledge society on justice and linked out from the show

29:01

notes. And for us, and

29:03

I'm obviously he'd, I know he'd agree with me,

29:06

is that you are an outlier for all

29:08

the reasons we mentioned, and it's fairly obvious

29:10

to everyone. And I also want to ask

29:13

sort of one more general question about, you know,

29:15

you as an economist in the sense that as

29:17

we grow older, you realize that there is a

29:19

scarcity of time, you cannot do 50 things at the

29:21

same time. And it seems to me that you

29:23

were juggling two roles, but now you've added a

29:25

third one to that. And your first role is

29:27

right of being an academic and you're driven by

29:29

curiosity and intellectual passion. Second is you become a

29:31

practitioner where you say, let me really make a

29:34

difference. And then that shapes your academic research into

29:36

what is relevant and can actually make a difference.

29:38

And the third today is that you're a public

29:40

intellectual, whether you like it or not, it is

29:42

what you are. And I think it's, it's something

29:44

that you should take seriously. And I think in

29:47

a sense, it's the duty of people like you

29:49

to, you know, if you're able to, and that's

29:51

exactly what you've done with this great book. How

29:54

does one think about the balance between these?

29:56

Because the danger is that if you

29:58

privilege one over the other, you

30:00

lose a little bit of the edge. If

30:02

you spend too much time, for example, with

30:04

sieges working with state governments and all that,

30:07

the cutting edge of your knowledge might be

30:09

affected. And equally, if the

30:11

balance goes in favor of the

30:13

academic work, then that feedback loop

30:15

with what's happening on the ground

30:18

may be affected as well. And plus,

30:20

if you're a public intellectual there, that

30:23

comes with its own set of necessities,

30:25

such as always trying to

30:27

simplify without being

30:30

simplistic, number one. And number two,

30:32

I think public intellectuals, to a certain extent,

30:34

have to figure out the things that they

30:36

really want people to know and repeat that

30:38

ad infinitum, which as an academic would be

30:40

anathema to you because why would you repeat

30:42

anything, right? You want to enter new territory.

30:44

So how do you sort of think about

30:46

this evolving balance and have you thought about

30:48

it before I just asked you this question?

30:52

So I must say, again,

30:56

for your listeners, we came in, in

30:58

previous episodes, we said, OK, we're talking education, talking

31:00

health. I think this time it was, you know, we finished

31:03

this book and then let's take stock. I

31:05

think these are obviously key questions, right? I

31:07

think so. Leave aside the

31:09

public intellectuals for a moment because I still

31:11

maintain that the only place I'm a public

31:13

intellectual is on your show. So I don't

31:16

have, say, a weekly column, OK, like, I

31:18

mean, or something in a paper where I

31:20

feel the pressure to constantly pontificate on things.

31:22

I think the once a year common anathema

31:24

shows to me like, you know, the right

31:26

frequency of saying, OK, there's enough new stuff,

31:28

right? I mean,

31:30

it is it

31:34

comes. It comes with unnecessary pressure. Let's

31:37

put it that way, right? Because the thing then

31:39

is you are expected to opine on everything, right?

31:41

I mean, expect it is. And then because

31:44

if you're a public intellectual, then even your

31:46

silences are interpreted as endorsement. So and I

31:48

think it's just unfair to put that kind

31:50

of expectation of burden on any person. So

31:52

I think the term itself is a little counterproductive

31:55

in the traditional term. I

31:57

think if what you mean is a public intellectual in the

31:59

sense of somebody who. who is primarily an intellectual

32:01

who does deep research but is also committed

32:03

to sharing that with the public then I

32:05

think I am happy with that definition. But

32:07

there is another expanded definition of the public

32:09

intellectual who pontificates on kind of the larger

32:11

polity and where is the country going, where

32:13

is the world going, where is the society

32:15

going. I do not know, I do not

32:17

meet the jnani gurus and the talking heads

32:19

of TV. I do not meet that at

32:21

all. Yeah, I mean and so that is

32:23

not me, okay. But if the

32:26

level of public intellectualness implied by coming on your

32:28

show once a year is I think just about

32:31

right, okay. And

32:33

again there is a reason you are the first interview I am doing

32:35

with this book. Frankly you have spoiled me, right. I have no idea

32:37

how to do a 30 minute interview in this book. So

32:39

given that each chapter takes like a five hour

32:42

episode, okay. But no, so I

32:44

think going back to your first question, okay. So let

32:46

us leave the public intellectual side aside, okay. Because I

32:48

do not want that to add more burden to my

32:50

already overburdened life. I think the

32:53

business of, so I would say

32:55

there is three buckets, right. There is the life

32:57

as a scholar where you are kind of creating

32:59

new research. There is life as kind of policy

33:01

practitioner, advisor of saying okay how do you take

33:03

this advice. And there is a third

33:06

one which is I think important going forward which

33:08

is institution building, okay. Because and it goes back

33:10

to that hourglass I was talking about, right. And

33:13

so there are definitely institutional investments I want to

33:15

make that you know create structures for younger people,

33:17

right. You need to just kind of you know

33:19

do more work, right. Ajay again keep saying that

33:21

you know we need more health economists. We need

33:24

more labor economists. We know you know the US maybe

33:26

has a community of a few hundred health economists. I

33:28

mean in India you probably will struggle to find 20,

33:30

right. I mean who kind of

33:32

is a community, an intellectual community. I mean

33:34

that is both doing research and talking and

33:36

stuff like that. So I think I want

33:38

to think hard about how I can help

33:40

kind of catalyze some of those intellectual institutional

33:42

spaces. I think the way

33:45

I balance kind of sieges and academia is very

33:47

simple. So the way I cheat, how do I

33:49

make my time adept more than 100% is that

33:51

I do things that count for both, okay. So

33:54

At Sieges there is a full time CEO, there is

33:56

a full time operation team. So I am the founder

33:58

and scientific director. So as scientific director. I

34:00

have two primary to the but really

34:02

to primary responsibility rights. To one is

34:05

really to end of and this. Is also

34:07

cause a semi public intellectual rights I mean but

34:09

it's really disseminate ideas in the book. Okay so

34:11

what I'm planning to do next. So because I

34:13

think I told you right and known to see

34:15

them doing nine months in India three months of

34:17

the U S, I go back from a teaching

34:19

April to June and then I'll be back in

34:21

July August of the next nine months. my hope

34:23

is ideally to almost visit every student in the

34:25

house and I'll pay. And this is a book

34:27

on states led governance and ideally like you know

34:29

is is this all works out right I will

34:32

travel on a Friday with families like you know

34:34

I mean do a little bit of culture and

34:36

history and says. And his head back

34:38

on a Sunday and then the Monday to

34:40

Wednesday like I'll spend days. You know that

34:42

Public lectures with a few universities, right? Maybe

34:44

some workshops and seminars for government like able

34:46

to sustain itself. So that way what I'm

34:48

doing is. A for academic job

34:51

which is a dissemination of ideas and

34:53

such but that also speaks to the.

34:55

Because sit sieges in some ways is

34:57

not. The professional a standard professional

34:59

services kind of are great What

35:01

it is is more of vehicles

35:03

are seeing that these governance is

35:05

farms are not just kind of

35:07

conceptual ideas but that these up

35:09

tactic of their daughters. And so it's

35:11

that is that isn't So there's a

35:13

learning aspect into such as. But didn't see

35:16

this as setting. that's important part at want

35:18

to say that it is into conflict with

35:20

so I don't get involved in the delivery

35:22

I get involved in abstract the the Jindal

35:24

insights that we learn from each project. trades

35:26

I mean silks, The second thing that. We do

35:28

that is that I do is get now

35:30

hired our first beauty economists okay it can

35:32

mean so is kind of building the technical

35:35

stuff acid these of cetus and therefore like

35:37

a mean also being able to support them

35:39

and so. Against every government.

35:41

Wants kind of good technical answer for best

35:43

but they don't know how to find a

35:45

great mean. So sparta what we're doing is

35:48

now working out models were bites. You know

35:50

we could create these units that do mood

35:52

budget analysis, the skull analysis and these I've

35:54

kind of seems second from the government but

35:56

then also have like an old couple of

35:58

other technical people. That's how you

36:00

really build capacity. not by kind of you

36:03

don't saw the do a project in Budapest.

36:05

You don't do a training workshops, most of

36:07

the capacity gets booed when you pull, create

36:09

and been you do it together. So we

36:12

I think so the the broad on said

36:14

his I I tried to freak. Yes it

36:16

is true I tried to do too much

36:18

but the way I tried to make it

36:21

work is five picking activities. that kind of

36:23

double com picking kind of both aspects of

36:25

my. That. Makes us makes a

36:27

lot of sense Before we go to the book

36:29

itself or other the two chapters of the books

36:32

discuss to do you notice are going to Dublin

36:34

comes in didn't discuss to do to others with

36:36

a couple of questions and one you know I

36:38

love the quip about china has development to the

36:40

a sniffle a for deployment of his and what

36:42

I and you know actually as he and I

36:45

were planning to do an episode of the everything

36:47

is Everything blasting that would upend economics and you

36:49

know going on he study and so on and

36:51

so forth and you of course at or development

36:53

economists buddy what our friends raised in a know

36:55

of of get intellectually. As well as ups

36:58

and Indra nice And what a phone!

37:00

Fascinating was a new tenth chapter which

37:02

is about the press from Cove and

37:04

we don't motorboat a gluten sounds like

37:06

a fancy American god from the nineteen

37:08

sixties, oppressed and goes yeah I can

37:10

just imagine the are you know the

37:13

ad in Playboy in my had read

37:15

cause I'm reminded of a snickers about

37:17

the in that you spoke about how

37:19

traditional approaches for development economics field. You

37:21

also mention a jew got away and

37:23

wish development economists fumbling around desperately then

37:25

try to tackle. That and then you

37:27

come up with what you do there for

37:30

to as your total boots. and when added

37:32

that it felt like that toad a brooch

37:34

really gets to the crux of what do

37:36

we central inside of the book. Innocence? Someone

37:38

who didn't mean to bit about that schedule.

37:41

Thank you Sergeant. Separate didn't like as it

37:43

entered the book is a little Books in

37:45

one is eighteen chapters, capital one in separate.

37:47

Ten are both like introductions to the to

37:49

have that the book, great name and so

37:52

on. Just give your readers but the listeners

37:54

at the scene as yeah we've already done.

37:56

Some that a synthesis, but I think the board point of

37:58

the book is that he's innocent. There is that.

38:00

It is this notion that the binding

38:02

constraints to most of our development challenges

38:04

is the effectiveness of the state itself

38:06

sockets. So what in you we we

38:08

will. He zeroed in on exactly the

38:10

key point eight which is still for

38:12

the longest time Academic Development Economic Zone

38:14

I mean before the blast, the whole

38:16

feet And okay I less again go

38:18

back and think about. Adding

38:21

one very important things to that makes Development

38:23

Economics I think much more exciting than other

38:25

parts of his intellectual in are practically. I'd

38:27

say is that if you look at public

38:29

finance of gets it is considered almost axiomatic

38:31

that that is a trade off between equity

38:33

and efficiency say to this is treated as

38:35

one of the ten i am laws of

38:37

Economics dumb sides to the Nobel prize winner

38:39

give us Guys recently said both me where

38:42

he said adding twelve laws of economics and

38:44

one of them is that has a trade

38:46

off between awkward University of and Reason We

38:48

believe that is that any distribution requires taxation

38:50

that had incentives. Into glazed kind of giving

38:52

out resources that can hurt incentives and phasing

38:54

out pockets of and so does to elaborate

38:56

on the pacing up points A suppose I

38:59

say that if you earn less than a

39:01

certain amount you get this benefit but if

39:03

you on above you lose it's that means

39:05

that acts as a video hijacks it even

39:07

for the pulitzer. The poor don't pay income

39:09

tax but if you're losing a benefit as

39:12

you unlikely that his backside So so all

39:14

of these things hurt efficiency of it's not

39:16

What's different about developing comics intellectually, what makes

39:18

development economics different from other kinds of. Economics

39:20

is that is the ideal for poverty trap.

39:23

And so the idea that both individuals and

39:25

countries can be stuck in a low level

39:27

equilibrium? Where'd if you have, you know if

39:29

you're malnourished, If your api educated and your

39:31

parents don't have the resources to invest in

39:33

that you're never going to be productive, right?

39:35

The seen and sword be at a low

39:38

level. Me:

39:40

I think the field. the old i

39:42

think intellectual and models played like a minute

39:44

tracks in about two up in economics when

39:46

done right that skill that of different ways

39:48

it loses the plot gets much more does

39:50

to me. As at the

39:52

thought of the but as as the discipline

39:55

that attracts me is that's when you're close

39:57

subsistence Either that the individual level ordered the

39:59

nurses. The didn't know trade off

40:01

between equity and efficiency. Okay so a well

40:03

designed it government intervention and well designed and

40:06

well implemented can not only promote equity but

40:08

also promote officials erect which is something I

40:10

talk about it up the sixes over that's

40:12

I will come to that suck it. But

40:14

so that's kind of what makes them up

40:16

and economic success of it's. so what happened

40:18

was the first wave of development economics when

40:20

defeated really took off in the early nineteen

40:22

fifties. Post will what do you have? This

40:24

kind of old bunch of newly independent nations

40:26

and people are looking for advice they'd like.

40:29

Okay, what should we do. Cats

40:31

and a lot of that only

40:33

think. And famous was. Almost.

40:35

Downstream a Soviet blanket and the

40:37

the some said that was insane.

40:40

Of living memory of Thirty Forty as

40:42

the only. Example of rapid.

40:44

Industrialization and development was the Soviet Union

40:46

and people then didn't know kind of

40:49

the costs that it was the that

40:51

were better rates. I mean that drop

40:53

that it was lady steepest it was

40:55

Betty what should the government do. But

40:58

this sector that six that what you to

41:00

practise and some of that thinking still permeates

41:02

right. Many think about jobs or can get

41:05

sick. They should be privatized for incentives of

41:07

itself. Snap sectors. Think. It's like

41:09

a mean has a long history right? But

41:11

the problem is that never asked the question

41:13

poses a month, do it or candy. been

41:15

doing so and that's what gives you this

41:18

long laundry list of well designed but failed

41:20

projects With then gives you books like the

41:22

least to leave White Man's burden and like

41:24

you know, elusive quest for growth and the

41:26

basic point that was that foreign aid is

41:28

never ever driven. Girl talking said this cannot

41:30

be driven by foreign aid and that is

41:33

essentially castigating. Don't have you know, Doug the

41:35

Donut Industrial complex. Okay, that's what you want

41:37

to. You want to feel good. You wanted

41:39

to sums up to the bunch of consultants

41:41

like a means of is a little ecosystem

41:43

of aid funded projects. okay I mean that

41:45

lives in Minnesota efforts of the ways. What

41:47

happened was they can of people started recognizing

41:49

that okay a lot of these projects have

41:52

feelings on get and then sleep with to

41:54

go to again as he was on set

41:56

against that. a lot of biddy talks be

41:58

pocket the community Torchwood people who. During the

42:00

best. Okay but the problem is that state

42:02

capacity is not something that can be done

42:05

from the outset. Smoke Eight has to be

42:07

done from the inside. So he said a

42:09

well intentioned don't know who wants to

42:11

come and help developing countries. You see that.

42:14

Listen all of my well designed first.

42:16

I was giving you advice on what to

42:18

do that waited because you could not

42:20

do on case I am not able to

42:22

come and build your public systems. so

42:24

what do I do I say okay let

42:26

me see good old Water the few

42:28

really important. it's okay. To get done right.

42:31

Okay so it could be vaccinations. it could

42:33

be a pull your mean it could be

42:35

certain it'll stuff on but and an outdoors

42:37

programs around as programmatic priorities. What the donors

42:39

would do is then put project management unit

42:41

of is so you put pm use because

42:43

you say it's government will not implement well

42:45

but let me put my people who are

42:48

kind of consultant to make sure that at

42:50

least my project gets implemented with of it's

42:52

soft and this is better than the previous

42:54

one. Okay so this is a get not

42:56

have a not enough on it at all

42:58

right because it and everybody's evolving rationally. Responding

43:00

to the constraints they say sites. And

43:02

so it. Reflects essentially a

43:05

thinking. That says okay, if I can

43:07

get the vaccines for can get the shots and

43:09

and that's going to save less Okay and so

43:11

that dispensable. It is doable and I don't need

43:13

to take on this conflict. Labaton took it as

43:16

the entire states. And so and even bit. On

43:18

these sites to I think the only global development

43:20

agency that has an element of seat capacity. building

43:22

in the programs is usually the Way bank and

43:24

that's because they have much be discreet stated that

43:26

he isn't the bank has a much much much

43:29

be the skill than any other entities and other

43:31

entities are typically making ground the bank to making

43:33

loans state so it's are getting loans back than

43:35

the ticket sizes much bigger and then as part

43:37

of that stem you got a ticket sized and

43:39

you to the if you look at some of

43:42

our management information systems m I s and things

43:44

like that in this case in the game as

43:46

part of would have been funded projects. That happened

43:48

and eighties and nineties to the World Bank is usually had

43:50

a bit of that, but most other donors are too small.

43:52

That can mean even function and that's good And so you

43:55

get That's but the problem now and part of what I'm

43:57

kind of thing in the bloke. Is that's until

43:59

this is where I in up and what

44:01

part of the city revolution But I'm kind

44:03

of moving beyond that. Great that can mean

44:06

in this book right? because the Rcp the

44:08

evolution I think was a bit of a

44:10

compliment to displease to of development rocket that's

44:12

disease to his I need to find a

44:15

team that will work and be highly effective

44:17

so seats in a small skill efficacy bridal.

44:19

I find that the women tablets work or

44:22

floating dispenses at source help reduce in on

44:24

infection rates and can save lives beside findings

44:26

and that was it. The simplest of that's

44:28

all they need is a small pm you

44:31

around it and I can deliver massive by

44:33

said pockets in a in a model of

44:35

development. Where the we proceed is by kind

44:38

of finding things that I would putting be

44:40

amused around and implementing in a modular weights

44:42

them. The experimental research actually is a huge

44:44

compliment to that because it tells you what

44:47

we want to do. But the criticism of

44:49

the experiments has always been that you know

44:51

and part of the concern of the old

44:53

style big picture development. think that's about where

44:56

does he live Cds lost the plot is

44:58

to say it's Ukraine of unsaid. Increasingly small

45:00

questions well that can mean and losing the

45:02

big which are exciting sports and but this

45:05

is my point about you know that I'd

45:07

buy did you that the micro position of

45:09

an individual studies but what I'm doing the

45:11

book isn't up. Bring back from all of

45:13

these micro studies to see Now what does

45:15

this tell us about the cooley Big Bucks

45:18

events and the truly big For to that

45:20

I'm coming back to balancing that. this was

45:22

good, it made sense but this approach does

45:24

not give you development traits and that development

45:26

is in the end about Spain of see

45:28

all the aid funded. Projects at the end or

45:31

less than one percent of countries budget is even

45:33

if you're a small really poor friend. What on

45:35

concrete might be ten percent rockets or may be

45:37

sympathetic, but so. The auto Development

45:39

and how do you? How do you use

45:41

of public resources? How are using a domestic

45:43

tax money better right? Scene and so dense

45:45

the whole book. In a way, if I was

45:48

to synthesize in one sentence, it's essentially about how

45:50

do you improve the quality of expenditure? Like, because

45:52

you know we. We keep seeing the of things

45:54

to do. but we don't have money. We don't

45:56

have money for this. Don't have money for this

45:58

bugs. The point is that. To get a

46:00

glass and then you get a lot of ideological

46:03

fights about should I be proud as in growth

46:05

of would I be privatizing social sector should I

46:07

spend an infrastructure for them reports that has been

46:09

medications and that is that all of our public

46:11

discourse is. Because the budget allocations. What is

46:13

visible socket but i to see what is

46:15

unseen like is how that budget allocation then

46:17

translates into kind of impact of the balance

46:19

and what twenty years of medicines has been

46:21

about is kind of insect that off the

46:23

set us and of pre those been floated

46:25

like mean and measuring. Impact on the ground

46:27

and then I didn't defined as common pattern across.

46:29

All of these studies that is that

46:32

the returned to improving governance and said

46:34

capacity is often ten times more than

46:36

to spending more than the complainant the

46:38

program. So if we apply our mine

46:40

but this made you think about said

46:42

capacity broadly as the. Thinking of

46:44

the state as an organization. Right Water The

46:46

processes by which I mean and government

46:48

speaks budgets and converts those into outcomes.

46:51

That is so much little hanging. Fruit their

46:53

that if you focus on and group that that

46:55

that's going to be kind of were the biggest

46:57

bang on development of going to be alec all

46:59

that the third approach because the first wave kind

47:02

of ignored implement base in the second wave kind

47:04

of sidestep the state didn't ignore it but said

47:06

taking it on outside the realm of my don't

47:08

have funded project is too much. Okay so let

47:10

me do it for my projects and now I'm

47:12

seeing as part of the third wave which hopefully

47:15

this book is them A godless followed his to

47:17

say that let's come back to the ford of

47:19

development which is kind of building a more effective

47:21

state. So let me you're an

47:23

obvious question will let me say something that is

47:26

that triggered by the socket but still be Interesting

47:28

thing is a lot of pain of Indian academics

47:30

who right in the Us and then rates in

47:32

India that books and first be published globally like

47:35

to meet and then be published in the the

47:37

of success but it's I'm doing the opposite trait

47:39

which is this is first and foremost written for

47:41

India but the end of his most likely be

47:44

an academic press okay that publish something and that

47:46

as they the yeah okay but that levels I

47:48

do. Different title Okay so this is called executing

47:50

India's development traits Arabic or accelerating development. A

47:53

road map for and from in gets his to

47:55

the point dead. So why am I going to

47:57

the deed or is that the reason I can

47:59

write this book? We i to climb an

48:01

Indian cities because the process of building

48:03

and affect the state. Is at the end

48:05

of the do Something that is it and domestic project.

48:07

It cannot be imposed from outside and so which

48:10

means that you know we and it reflects even

48:12

my teaching journey rights of about eight years. I

48:14

used a decent development economic some up with as

48:16

an eight to sixteen seven two thousand Sixteen I

48:18

switch to teaching a course on the Indian Economy.

48:21

And my mother was sitting in sentencing wire kids

48:24

in California. Interested in cook with a million

48:26

economy and I mean but that glass was

48:28

so popular and even more popular than the

48:30

development. So my duties. In the Indian economy

48:32

class would even higher salaries that he's in his

48:34

i was not getting. it is a boating set

48:36

of facts or lose a second glance a disadvantage

48:38

this I was teaching it as an A blind

48:41

develop an economics. Class Smith had to

48:43

the lens of the Indian Xp and

48:45

sites, so smart up a normal development.

48:47

Last is that you love examples from

48:49

that America. Examples in Southeast Asia from

48:52

South Asia from Africa stopped those become

48:54

useful empirical illustrations of certain principles. But

48:56

they don't give you the satisfaction of

48:58

understanding development because that happens in the

49:01

context of a countries with a certain

49:03

political consultant, historical context. right? So. As

49:08

is an assault like my teaching is applied.

49:10

develop an economics thought through the lens of

49:12

the Nina speak as the book isn't a

49:14

for book on how. Do you build an

49:16

effective state? Start to the lens of the

49:18

mean experience but at this should be delivered

49:20

Know beliefs but I've. Not Ever pretend that

49:22

I can go to sell the government of

49:24

Nigeria. Okay, how to do this? The hope. Is

49:27

that there will be young Nigerians. Like can been

49:29

who will read that and then they will

49:31

be. Disease may cause I will add the

49:33

agency to do what they do. All that

49:35

the school I love. The difference in titles

49:37

are do illustrated because I think those title

49:39

of the international version these exactly what I

49:41

would find. Extremely. Attractive If

49:43

I was a development economists somebody else in

49:45

the world because is giving me a free

49:47

to look at my own country, not a

49:49

road map Little Freeman. I can upload those

49:51

principles just to kind of for my listeners

49:53

quickly. You know some of the three approaches.

49:55

the traditional Development Economic Suppose you're saying is

49:57

you go to a country and you say.

50:00

It suits you do x y z and

50:02

you don't get about how they will do

50:04

with whether they even have the capacity to

50:06

do it. It's just said from on high

50:08

I were you know what? they did evidence

50:10

and got a static. So these other things

50:12

that you do the second approach is more

50:14

pragmatic which perhaps icons you got a new

50:16

would have a day on guys that broadcasted

50:18

a squatting names as as I feel. but

50:20

the second a bruise really is that you

50:22

accept that in a suit capacity issue. So

50:24

what you say is either find a project

50:26

that I see his books and our cities

50:28

attorney and in that and then I didn't.

50:30

You know, build a unit on that.

50:32

I got up and by consultants and

50:34

do what it's addicts and then I

50:36

got to go because it seems to

50:38

be a way to get around the

50:40

absence of said capacity what he was

50:42

seeing as dramatically different and it's not

50:44

even that. Let's make state capacity better,

50:46

it is a mixtape capacity. Becca how

50:48

nord by throwing money at the problem

50:51

but by increasing efficiency and by using

50:53

data to figure out what works and

50:55

what doesn't work and is a great

50:57

example of that you've given your dog

50:59

is to Daves. Which is from which is

51:01

about Judy Chu capacities where you speak about

51:03

how are you know making the system the

51:05

state slightly more efficient A has massive knock

51:07

on effect on society and markets so I'd

51:10

ask you do you know to be good

51:12

example because it it really struck his stats

51:14

of this is a paper by Mannesmann it

51:16

out loud have bc but he and then

51:18

she was a postdoc with me at the

51:20

system for T as in his on Saturday

51:22

member the Us of Delaware it's A it's

51:24

It's very simple but it is so powerful

51:26

because what is doing is is studying to

51:29

This is the best. City That mean I'm

51:31

looking at the fact that district judges in

51:33

India like the depicted as a court has

51:35

me be about four or five, forty five

51:37

judges or for the successes and has a

51:39

case load of thousand to fifteen hundred cases

51:41

eight. So what happens when judges get transferred

51:43

out often does a fall into plastic odd

51:45

when they come in as an innocent eight.

51:47

so the numbers are small enough that any

51:49

a given one subject is increasing capacity by

51:51

twenty twenty five percent Dates and to also

51:53

is doing is using those kind of scenes

51:55

of these discontinuities that come from the capacity

51:57

from the judges getting transferred in and out.

52:00

The them look at what is the don't

52:02

seem effect than the number of cases that

52:04

good disposed and then sign of his findings

52:06

that every kind of extra district judges appointed

52:08

kind of lives and except one cases a

52:11

years but them there's also a significant increase

52:13

in kind of go to credit and total

52:15

economic activities and partly that's because about sixty.

52:17

To seventy percent of the cases are land

52:19

and credit. Okay so these are then keep.

52:21

The fact is a production that a

52:23

lot that that are not productive and

52:25

so you know so that's an example

52:28

of discord state effectiveness. So we keep

52:30

talking about. Thirty million

52:32

pieces and then we break our head and

52:34

then has been may be enough conferences in

52:36

of meetings with nothing actually happen. Think of

52:38

something up an odd something that happens but

52:40

the underlying problem is growing at a faster

52:42

rate so you're not of insulting of flow

52:45

problems. Are we going to solve this stuff

52:47

up Stripes Been. So I just I get

52:49

if I can take a step back. And

52:51

talk about you know the six chapters. the

52:53

Six Sexual Appetite the get. The structure of

52:55

the book is like the said. the intellectual

52:57

contribution is not just assisted capacity because of

52:59

it's obvious and then the problem In a

53:01

lot of the academic researchers said capacities often

53:03

defined ontological. How can people say I want

53:06

to study this said capacity? So let me

53:08

start the whole you before but that is

53:10

kind of seeing a combatant capacity low have

53:12

become as to get people out there that

53:14

is kind of is not usually covered. Pretzels

53:16

And that's the part that really comes from.

53:18

Management doesn't matter what makes and was really.

53:20

then it's it's a dumbed earth vivid couple

53:22

coin reckless. Is and he said he said. Economists

53:24

need to study the seat as an organization

53:27

and not as an institution When he studied

53:29

as an institution, Ukraine of studies performance when

53:31

he studied an organization who say let's look

53:33

at the innards of move why the performances

53:36

hired or and that's what you need to

53:38

do. But then seeing this is how you

53:40

fix right? So so that's where does this

53:42

first half of the book witnessing get us

53:44

six key pillars of effective green of organizations

53:47

and seats was didn't have a measurement that

53:49

has personnel that is public finance expenditures. Avenue

53:51

that is is holds up Don't federalism? That

53:53

means the sunsets. And reception hall has

53:55

these six. Six total chapters which arts education

53:57

and skills which we talked about. had the nutrition

54:00

or lenders, police and public see if the courts

54:02

and justice a me and or the west said

54:04

and jobs at tilts. What's good about each of

54:06

these exact as in the other thing I'm trying

54:08

to do the book which hopefully council is seeing

54:11

that be spent so much of our discourse kind

54:13

of arguing rate would send was the argument to

54:15

indian they can nobody could spend a little list

54:17

them arguing little more time doing like it on

54:20

so we would be better off. So this is

54:22

not to say be shut down debate that could

54:24

happen. How can people for debate be possible That

54:26

bites you know create a broad consensus of these

54:28

that areas that motto for. Both intrinsic human

54:31

was at. And. Matter what instrument

54:33

or developments, Wants me to eat

54:35

and be Tuscan as do it too much as

54:37

I think the nicest and don't meet lots of

54:39

very nice endorsements but I like very much more.

54:41

Topic and co said like you know presets. I

54:43

hope people will just do it. So full of

54:45

that's Utopia network. Be a. Good. I

54:47

loaded and uses good we're to gross

54:50

recruiter. stop arguing and start doing. Was

54:52

booed acquitted when those I got flipping

54:54

through seriously as the other hundred years

54:56

ago or so. obe his a question

54:58

about the disaffected of your books, a

55:01

seed lead road map for effective governance

55:03

eight and I want to double click

55:05

on the stately bootleg you've already pointed

55:07

out and we talking much more details

55:10

with many mood illustrations of who I

55:12

just increasing suit capacity make sense matter

55:14

what. your ideology is a code so

55:16

it has markets. Who told St Omer

55:18

tells prosperity in every sense it is

55:21

great as growth has equity etc etc.

55:23

So but I i again would have

55:25

been of double click dead because what

55:27

often happens is that in the room

55:29

of ideas that is over yeah sometimes

55:31

have died they can be a coating

55:33

old effect and that if you because

55:35

our default policy as indian or different

55:38

mindset as indians is that where everything

55:40

you look look to the street for

55:42

the solutions and and it's of sort

55:44

of you look at my buffs had

55:46

cause to students. And my sense is that

55:48

a solution that is not an either or the solution

55:50

has to be two pronged. You know more. Take speaks

55:53

in the absorb that he gave to your book. That

55:55

and ninety One with the State does is it gets

55:57

out of the v in that he had the would

55:59

have growth. And now would the studio

56:01

to do is function better and they are

56:03

both important and frankly there's still a lot

56:05

of getting out of the way that is

56:07

required even to the a lot of economic

56:10

policy is about inserting to them and in

56:12

the way and reducing freedom in that sense.

56:14

So my what he is dead or you

56:16

know a brilliant book like this is laying

56:18

out what you need to play the long

56:20

game effectively and fix this part of the

56:22

puzzle. But the other part of the puzzle

56:24

actually in terms of do ability and reserves

56:27

seems to me to be a lot hanging

56:29

fruit that in much. Of the area. As

56:31

if you just get out of the way

56:33

and is still so much of that list

56:35

to do you achieve immediate his eyes at

56:38

scale. So what is sort of your sense

56:40

of this and again I'm not coming from

56:42

a purist. evident in perspective, get sixty It

56:44

cannot. Juliet I agree with your entire book

56:47

does nothing in it. I disagree with but

56:49

I'm saying that I worry about that crowding

56:51

out because we're You know when you go

56:53

to a bureaucrat it is extremely appealing to

56:56

them to their top. Don't mind said de

56:58

sade or less. make the state. Work.

57:00

And I don't think that's a hard sell.

57:02

A But when you tell him that he

57:04

get the seat out of the the in

57:06

all of these two months and seeking blah

57:08

blah blah neck and be an issue so

57:10

that snow fantastic lessons and it's on. The

57:12

i struggled with my says the that A

57:14

to the two dimensions when one wants to

57:16

what ate kind of blindly single, need state

57:18

capacity, rights to one his eighteenth. What happens

57:20

when you put more capacity in the hands

57:22

of malevolent as okay let's I'm in so

57:24

that is and snow and talk about that

57:26

in the into that in any of that

57:29

part of the. Snow that a people

57:31

distrust the state and saying that a few

57:33

week teeth is better because then it can

57:35

get. The reason I find that does this

57:37

has images is the following night which is

57:40

the Jamie we have followed as humanities okay

57:42

is kind of from owed rule of the

57:44

done that I can mean to kind of

57:46

rule of law, cytosine insults and of a

57:49

broad seat. is that in and A And

57:51

then it's a question of how illegitimate other

57:53

laws themselves at the scene and who makes

57:55

the laws but dance. What we forget is

57:57

that the laws have to be and. So

58:00

the wave the modern project of kind of

58:02

civilization is has been structured and this is

58:05

true regardless of in a democracy or what

58:07

the former is. Items he is that that

58:09

is will have lost a kid that that

58:11

are laws that are follow. That's what we

58:13

have tried to do as kind of. Reducing

58:17

the arbitrary power would have the state

58:19

is to say that the for as

58:21

if I was assessed that circumscribed by

58:23

certain prophecies rights. but what happens it's

58:25

those processes themselves as acquired The passage

58:27

okay. And so that is why this

58:29

approach of saying that I will have a

58:31

week state so that it doesn't kind of.

58:33

Includes: On my liberties is that even

58:35

he says limits because the the Pot tweet

58:37

to get to that liberal utopia right which

58:40

is a functional state that kind of is

58:42

a in the blood of citizens rather than

58:44

kind of for control of citizens which I

58:46

think is you know broadly bed be all

58:48

one. Two goals that it can be out

58:50

in is incomplete journey from a colonial state

58:52

designed to do this. rate them into a

58:54

democratic statement to sell us. But my I

58:57

think the key point out. And

58:59

this is another linings of an interpreter.

59:01

which is it's. A

59:03

challenge of an animal Tissues in Others have talked

59:06

about that be. With the. India's early

59:08

democracy and mean sauce which is a great

59:10

monitor triumph right? because it allowed us to

59:12

represent the interests of the poor and marginalized

59:14

in the public voice. But it is an

59:16

incomplete success because you have increase the power

59:19

of the poor to make us lehman the

59:21

states without the state having the capacity to

59:23

said the slings A to That's the scope

59:25

and stuff but is it be appointed at

59:27

the depot point is that. Everything

59:29

in our societies for most are driven by

59:31

ability to be okay but as the state

59:33

is the one entity that every citizen is

59:35

supposed to have an equal playing politics so

59:37

if you want and amid qu said the

59:39

same as the in his Forty Nine and

59:41

a Constituent Assembly address that we're entering into

59:43

an easy to contradict sets in the age

59:45

of in in the era of democracy politics

59:47

be followed the principal a one man one

59:49

vote in the Prince But as everything else

59:51

the have using for the great silks in

59:53

this is why I argued that the project

59:55

the building a mod affect the state is

59:58

the great unfinished asked of Indian democracy. It's. That

1:00:00

for Indian democracy to deliver them the

1:00:02

promise of democracy due to marginalize use

1:00:04

the state is in fact the effect

1:00:06

of it now. But then let's get

1:00:08

second wind. Which is, how does that

1:00:11

not? Get over interpreted as saying oh, state needs

1:00:13

to do everything Okay, I have a capable states

1:00:15

so I will do this and do that the

1:00:17

great and still that he thinks it's incredibly important

1:00:19

problems and I think that a bully them addressing

1:00:21

that both indirectly the other that night. it's okay.

1:00:24

So the first in that if we I'm

1:00:26

addressing that is by the focus of the

1:00:28

successes that I'm talking about. Great I think

1:00:30

because these are sick sectors that nobody will

1:00:32

argue. Rate of. Mean that the states

1:00:34

as a portal that would talks and

1:00:36

that out kind of. To.

1:00:39

Even more subtle ways in which I think that

1:00:41

messages can make I think it's up to sixteen

1:00:43

and jobs and productivity in some ways was the

1:00:45

most difficult up for the rights because it's like

1:00:47

I'm writing all of Economics and Thirty beta site

1:00:49

and it's also that's where the make pretty clear

1:00:51

that most of the dynamism economy happens in the

1:00:53

private sector. It and the role of the steep

1:00:55

is too kind of provide these. In a

1:00:57

blows that allows private. Sector Dynamism. Okay,

1:01:00

so that's one place with a message,

1:01:02

his footsteps, the other places Even more

1:01:04

subtle, the Israelis have to six when

1:01:06

I'm talking about improving the quality of

1:01:08

budgetary analysis about the quality of expenditure

1:01:10

where you say it's any, I'm against

1:01:12

the this is why that is so

1:01:14

much low hanging fruit. Great if you

1:01:16

look at how budget proposals of hundreds

1:01:18

of course get kind of sign off

1:01:20

on that biddy biddy Rudimentary analysis rates

1:01:22

bringing the discipline of saying. let's look

1:01:24

at every budget item over five hundred

1:01:26

cross site in the yolk, started thousand

1:01:28

and. But what can we as humans, the

1:01:30

capacity to and seeing can I estimate and

1:01:32

Ottawa even with some basic assumptions right? not

1:01:34

rocket science. Attack Press pressure test scan. I

1:01:36

didn't look at the equity impact of the

1:01:39

spending of so when you bring that kind

1:01:41

of discipline into the budgeting process then a

1:01:43

lot of beast it exists as a decent

1:01:45

spending not that may not be fully to

1:01:47

for a deletion stats and chapter fourteen like

1:01:49

get mean which is kind of going and

1:01:51

looking at and political analysis of the consequences

1:01:53

of the law sites but eventually it naturally

1:01:55

this is a twenty five year project tried

1:01:57

to meet. It's not to the the bullshit

1:01:59

is that. High income countries. Took

1:02:01

a hundred years to build an effect of

1:02:03

state. My optimistic is that based on what

1:02:06

we know and that's than the shifting the

1:02:08

presence of the knowledge we have the principles

1:02:10

be obviously can compress that cycle twenty five

1:02:12

years. That is then the full of accelerating

1:02:15

and get developments. And so too long. Way

1:02:17

of answering to I hope I answered it because

1:02:19

what I'm doing here is because if I start

1:02:21

making a laundry list as he to don't do

1:02:23

this, don't do this then you're litigating. Is it

1:02:25

like specific examples as opposed to illustrating? Principal say

1:02:28

to the book is not about getting into every

1:02:30

me degree view of the see to doing much

1:02:32

interpret sixty. Sort

1:02:35

of the state and the markets me to do

1:02:37

that as and the public finance chapter and that.

1:02:40

He adapted and laws I think is the

1:02:42

one that indirectly speak to sign of analyzing

1:02:44

and gently tennis if not freezing out at

1:02:46

least stopping the increase of spending can mean

1:02:49

on videos that does not productive and do

1:02:51

you know and hopefully that again bends the

1:02:53

curve in that I just. So.

1:02:56

You don't deserve frame that. I find that a useful

1:02:58

to think of the suit and you mentioned it in

1:03:00

your book and written about it. I first learned about

1:03:02

from Fukuyama me to the school percent exact and and

1:03:04

that's one of the things I feel bad as act.

1:03:07

Normally I would have wanted to put Fukuyama put all

1:03:09

of that in the next but the references on and

1:03:11

the footnote to because if I put everything in the

1:03:13

text then it starts feeling okay like it mean he's

1:03:15

doing a textbook sex addicts A decision. Fukuyama this season

1:03:17

is is it isn't it wouldn't win. Scenario is no

1:03:19

digital absolutely and and and just too quickly. sort of

1:03:22

enlightened the decision that you know you can look at

1:03:24

a scoop street in terms of strength. How. Well, it

1:03:26

can do what it does and in terms

1:03:28

of scoop, what all things are to chooses

1:03:30

to do. And I think most sensible people

1:03:32

would agree that the Indian state is big

1:03:35

in terms of scoop. It does too many

1:03:37

things and shouldn't do one of them and

1:03:39

it is weak in terms of standard. gone

1:03:41

to any of them properly. So instead of

1:03:43

being a law, but instead of doing a

1:03:45

lot of things badly, we want the state

1:03:47

to be one that does a few things

1:03:49

very well and a what your book does

1:03:51

brilliantly and I can almost imagine it being

1:03:54

done better is talk about how you. Can. Increase

1:03:56

strength. I think how you can reduce the scope

1:03:58

is also important to think of. Wouldn't live in

1:04:00

Munich, do stream books or what the suit should

1:04:02

or should not do A is that article by

1:04:04

are you know I'm I'm it up but union

1:04:07

Ceos as you visit in their book in service

1:04:09

of the republic I they signed was a good

1:04:11

good and me was who had of episodes of

1:04:13

everything is everything will link that from the show

1:04:15

notes and advice given the did the good like

1:04:17

I said as he with everything in your book

1:04:19

but I think I'm him and industry you last

1:04:21

time before the last episode when you send me

1:04:24

a job there were a couple of bad as

1:04:26

that I complain about when I think you're attacking

1:04:28

a straw man with a you say. That there

1:04:30

are some who would say that because India

1:04:32

has you know, privatizing Telecom and said lines

1:04:34

and it worked out, you know we should

1:04:36

do that to the rest of the whatever

1:04:38

that is a simplistic view. Know Telecom. analyze

1:04:41

examples I don't tend to give. So maybe

1:04:43

you had me in mind that I don't

1:04:45

know how much as I didn't that you

1:04:47

might think. Let me finish my last August

1:04:49

and and my over Assad is as a

1:04:51

strawman. So what people like me are saying

1:04:53

and we discuss it in London the education

1:04:55

episodes isn't ordered. The state should not do

1:04:57

it. It is that the state should do

1:05:00

everything. That you writing about in know your

1:05:02

reach up don't education but it should

1:05:04

also for yup disassemble idea what we're

1:05:06

doing set up and as such a

1:05:08

dynasty shot and killed but it's exactly

1:05:10

yeah yeah it's it's it's a good

1:05:12

at thousand emitted point i'm making but

1:05:14

I have a the no doubt that

1:05:16

you know overload listeners will kind of

1:05:18

get that different because zits you know

1:05:20

before we dive into the but to

1:05:22

areas were going to talk about really

1:05:24

the bureaucracy and personnel and so it's

1:05:26

sort of of the one and ask

1:05:28

you some foundation questions about. What we mean

1:05:30

busted capacity but before that is quick question

1:05:33

arisen guess from my show mentioned and a

1:05:35

he someone who have smoked with them and

1:05:37

and at one point bourbon a rip them

1:05:39

about that gleefully and this was of that

1:05:41

a good he sort of makes hundred you

1:05:43

know what I'm it was. You know ninety

1:05:45

percent of the things that happen in Go

1:05:47

Mint if not more. those decisions have nothing

1:05:49

to do with the politician in charge the

1:05:51

blunder decent will get he owed like one

1:05:53

big thing. They have that heart said on

1:05:55

like a D monetization or whatever but ninety

1:05:57

percent of the work is done by the

1:05:59

D. And it's a Deep

1:06:01

State Night. As you know good be Christmas

1:06:03

will vote in his episode and you get

1:06:06

such a vivid picture of it. It's into

1:06:08

the Deep State is really does group of

1:06:10

technocrats and bureaucrats who work for decades behind

1:06:12

the scenes. Starting from the lead nineteen seventies

1:06:14

Whitman movements of it a month he comes

1:06:16

to a deli at Manmohan So doing and

1:06:18

and the work silently for ten years in

1:06:21

the optimal crisis you know up as answered

1:06:23

says and so on and so forth and

1:06:25

it's and of continues and debt and one

1:06:27

deal of the with that same from your

1:06:29

experience. And do that doesn't seem. Meet

1:06:31

bureaucrats Incredibly important. Much more important than

1:06:34

weatherly public meeting delay, public building. That

1:06:36

or politicians have to implement whatever has

1:06:38

to happen. And what ugly chapter on

1:06:41

a politician's as was on? Your chapters

1:06:43

are literally eating which is nice source

1:06:45

sort of your cents on that. That

1:06:47

in the one hand you can look

1:06:50

at the bureaucracy which is so moribund

1:06:52

in different ways and the incentives are

1:06:54

all messed up and is often seem

1:06:57

so utterly dysfunctional but at the same

1:06:59

time as. Will do. and I know that

1:07:01

are outstanding people in the Civil Services who

1:07:03

nord of this to whom none of this

1:07:05

is new, Who would agree with every voter.

1:07:08

Few books and you know so what? What's

1:07:10

what's your drug and of dish soap? No

1:07:12

one. Does that mean the Deep State has

1:07:14

little bit of a vegetative dugout on any

1:07:16

modern doesn't like, but I think it is,

1:07:18

so that's. That the state as

1:07:20

gain a ceaseless organization that has it's

1:07:22

own to the difference and Dana functions

1:07:25

like for its own internal logic tactics.

1:07:27

It sometimes criticized academia like a mean

1:07:29

singular internally says essence of slipped that

1:07:31

every day of walk of life has

1:07:33

that date and so I can't remember

1:07:35

if I've discussed this with you but

1:07:37

I remember one of my it's this

1:07:39

and make Gps Had this at some

1:07:41

point. I like Adam been one of

1:07:43

mentally work in education one the states

1:07:45

normally that to positions there's gonna say

1:07:47

there's a commissioner of Education undies be

1:07:49

deducted of as big as. as it's

1:07:51

others champion and it's and one of them

1:07:54

as an election duties or the other person

1:07:56

was officiating holding which adds de smet and

1:07:58

says scottish example but. The great logic to

1:08:00

produce example is the gentleman writes a letter to

1:08:03

him set socket like that means to in one

1:08:05

office rights to himself in the other officer. it's

1:08:07

I can mean asking for the release of sit

1:08:09

in front and money and then that same afternoon

1:08:11

that seems gentlemen right back rejecting the request of

1:08:14

the out it was about. To.

1:08:17

End All point is like why would. You put yourself

1:08:19

through this process of kind of like you know

1:08:21

writing a letter to your sets the didn't want

1:08:23

to project like Y m is like know it

1:08:25

on said it's like a mean because that a

1:08:27

court has to saw that might job and displeases

1:08:29

to ask for the money my job in that

1:08:31

place is to turn it down and defies be

1:08:34

clear that the request was made because it's not

1:08:36

about the person it is the office of people

1:08:38

that made the request. Okay, so government

1:08:40

lives. In size cited lives in files that

1:08:42

lives in to Melissa Mean and a Brady

1:08:44

Betty. Key part of this when a bureaucratic

1:08:46

mindset of Saddam find the didn't happen and

1:08:48

so then you got to kind of documents.

1:08:50

I think that but the broader point that

1:08:52

ninety Percent Grace I can been happens in

1:08:54

in the innards of the status Hundred percent

1:08:56

right without the sinister the kind of like

1:08:58

connotation of the i you're a citizen visible

1:09:00

community that other to leave so I met

1:09:02

him but anyway so but. I think the

1:09:05

and guess I mean and in that

1:09:07

there. Are eighteen can on the outstanding P

1:09:09

T champions of teens who are not a leak

1:09:11

toyota and that thinking butter able to then build

1:09:13

the coalition's like I'm he needed to make things

1:09:15

happen you know So video who's a the seal

1:09:18

ceases to get on with him and message but

1:09:20

you know he says is is the problem is

1:09:22

that he people think that you go talk to

1:09:24

him and instead new get approval in the front

1:09:27

it'll happen not that are fifteen level different approach

1:09:29

it comes garrett okay like commence. And do

1:09:31

not, nobody was. At at actively get

1:09:33

it treats it as good as by

1:09:35

not. Not it as I malice pockets

1:09:38

and I heard a very interesting com and

1:09:40

recently. From a young official I met.

1:09:42

He said: "You know, in government, is

1:09:44

it's not a hell, yes it's an

1:09:46

okay and that says because the yes

1:09:49

is not because they're trying. Be disingenuous

1:09:51

the As as they agree with you but then

1:09:53

once you leave that room the burdens of their

1:09:55

lives they called okay like a mean and them

1:09:57

that exists no time to get it done. So

1:10:00

it's not even malice that gives.

1:10:02

An idea rates can mean it is then

1:10:04

this chronically understaffed state, a chronically missed stuffed

1:10:06

in terms of the what that is. So

1:10:08

in terms of the numbers and the technical

1:10:10

skills and which is then what the board

1:10:12

of apathy and for this about a fight.

1:10:14

and that's probably why you said this as

1:10:16

a set up. But yeah, I think you

1:10:18

know when we think about said capacity that

1:10:20

is what we're talking about. Were talking about

1:10:22

these invisible systems and processes that dublin how

1:10:24

the daily business of them and functions and

1:10:26

that's that's what the for the first album

1:10:29

book is about that has nothing on I

1:10:31

could talk about more than. Bureaucrats when Dad

1:10:33

was also in the Us is why Nord let's

1:10:35

let's gonna fuck with them. But before that just

1:10:37

to sort of doubleclick concert capacity one modern sold

1:10:39

in. This was a complete a gluten. Which means

1:10:41

I absolutely loved a metaphor that you made of

1:10:44

the Indian state as a nineteen fifties got that

1:10:46

You know you can nab a political parties are

1:10:48

basically fighting for who gets to drive the got.

1:10:50

What Is it More expenditure expenditure is a patrol

1:10:53

you put in the god who can put more

1:10:55

than would be to and but ultimately a Nineteen

1:10:57

fifties got as an idea of the Scott and

1:10:59

by which you're talking about the design of the

1:11:01

state which. Literally was going to design in

1:11:04

the nineteen fifties, so it makes a lot

1:11:06

of sense. I want you to take me

1:11:08

to very quickly before we get to the

1:11:10

subject. Returns what you consider the sixty systemic

1:11:12

elements of state capacity. Like when he sees

1:11:15

state capacity, it seems like a very vague

1:11:17

nebulous from this week it's own. look at

1:11:19

what do you mean by stats? Oh that's

1:11:21

great questions as assists are kind of a

1:11:23

concept that applied to any organizes okay, and

1:11:26

I learned this and facts from talking to

1:11:28

an auxiliary person. But and those so that

1:11:30

those first three pillars I still is. Silly.

1:11:33

The status of it is any of your

1:11:35

listeners in a private sector job. The what

1:11:37

are the things that drive the culture of

1:11:39

an organization paints. And the three things are

1:11:41

outcomes. Which is what? Are you measured on

1:11:43

your quarterly targets? What are your quarterly dogs

1:11:45

said? That's where the buck stops, right? Sucks.

1:11:47

That is what drives the culture of the

1:11:49

Odd, Which is what am I trying to

1:11:51

what is measured and what Am I An

1:11:53

account with a. Second Beasts is

1:11:56

a don't stream of that is plus I'm

1:11:58

out of it which is was hired. All

1:12:00

paid more, was promoted, who's posted

1:12:02

Wed and what determines your professional

1:12:04

success in your trajectory within the

1:12:06

audience. And that's why kind of

1:12:08

a child matters so much because.

1:12:11

It what seeps the entire. These amorphous

1:12:13

incentives that you talk about escaped by

1:12:15

your personal policies. A mean so. I

1:12:18

think I've met with something to said personal.

1:12:20

His policy right like comes mean that that

1:12:22

so epic but. I think that was meant more

1:12:24

in the form of the leader that who. That person is

1:12:27

will separate but I think that applies more

1:12:29

deeply. That personal is dusty token because the

1:12:31

people who you track with and then the

1:12:33

third pillar of organizational cause it is budget

1:12:35

site which are the units that are getting

1:12:37

increase in funding. Because that's where the

1:12:39

excitement. Is I mean and which other places

1:12:41

that are getting contract and front and to lose

1:12:43

The principles apply to the government as well which

1:12:45

is what you measure. So why do you get

1:12:48

all of this obsessive focus and paperwork and compliance

1:12:50

Because it's not the does not on developing the

1:12:52

government to account. Is this the the accountabilities also

1:12:54

compliance and not for our okay so that's what

1:12:57

drives that concepts to those three things apply to

1:12:59

them and as rate for data outcomes that sept

1:13:01

a full of personnel management, the Scepter five and

1:13:03

public finance expenditures. I think the to the other

1:13:06

things that the other chapters apply only to the

1:13:08

states and not to. Organization since and.

1:13:10

Roots and that is. Revenue. And because

1:13:12

I mean obviously others get about revenue but

1:13:14

that sales but as the suspects, seventy or

1:13:16

which is only the state Kindles. Okay, so

1:13:19

but that is afford component of said capacity.

1:13:21

And again, I think the important insights in

1:13:23

the chapter of Michigan build Us. A

1:13:26

day and was a like you know if

1:13:28

he loses a bus which is that the

1:13:30

most government officials tax department of reasons about

1:13:32

it took his if we have to hit

1:13:34

deserve a new target rights but they are

1:13:36

not thinking or even measuring about amazing that

1:13:38

even think about will be the thinking but

1:13:40

that non residents about what other. Downstream consequences

1:13:42

to economic activity from the needs of

1:13:45

the sexes east. Okay, so. And

1:13:47

because every tax is actually every rupee of

1:13:49

tax revenue has more than a to be

1:13:51

of other costs in the economy. Skill to

1:13:53

think not just about the quantity of revenue

1:13:55

but the quality of it. I mean so

1:13:57

what I'm doing intercepted is kind of really

1:13:59

is a shop. Putting the focus on the

1:14:01

quality of revenue and seeing how do you

1:14:03

kindness increase revenue instruments in a way that

1:14:05

also don't distort to promote economic activity. Beta

1:14:07

that's separate seven and if that is this

1:14:09

other or chapter that matters of governance which

1:14:11

is about federalism and lives a sub which

1:14:13

we talked a little bit about and I

1:14:15

think maybe not enough because we ended up

1:14:17

taking that episode half of it on the

1:14:20

into capital but anyway does a lot. that's.

1:14:22

And then there's the Scepter than the state in the

1:14:24

market which is seeing the again something that I in

1:14:26

a place to companies in terms of. Companies

1:14:28

also have to constantly that silver this meet

1:14:30

was is due to be type A mean

1:14:32

to this goes back to post thirty seven

1:14:35

the boundaries of some sites me which is

1:14:37

when should I do something in the house

1:14:39

when should I outsource and the basic inside

1:14:41

is that you the benefit of outsourcing and

1:14:44

procurement is that entity has specialization and skills

1:14:46

and quality and can do that but the

1:14:48

new trying to do everything else as but

1:14:50

the friction is who have to negotiate of

1:14:52

the contract you can't so that is is

1:14:55

incomplete contracts to thinking about the the boundaries

1:14:57

of the Fum. Is where kind of the

1:14:59

one piece of the conceptual mission that he

1:15:01

comes from. but that same thing applies to

1:15:03

the boundaries of the state. But it's more

1:15:05

than that because the seat is also making

1:15:07

the rules within with the market on sense.

1:15:09

So like I've said this, that Dublin functions

1:15:11

as a policy, mates it as a regulated

1:15:13

as a provider and the we're you. think

1:15:15

about the private sector, the different in the

1:15:18

seasonal sites that spins and of those are

1:15:20

the six pillars of kind of thing. And

1:15:22

when influx of these places the point of

1:15:24

doing this is nonsense To say. this is

1:15:26

a conceptual taxonomies. It's a conceptual taxonomy. Which

1:15:28

is then followed by showing how dysfunctional beyond

1:15:30

rate like the mean in each of these

1:15:32

things and then saying like you know this

1:15:34

is this is the low hanging fruit right

1:15:36

mean of things that you can do to

1:15:39

improve state effectiveness on each of these. Dimensions

1:15:41

and then you bring that to get out.

1:15:43

And then seeing this makes this whole entity.

1:15:45

That if you think about the state of the black

1:15:47

box and putting a budget and I'm getting an outboard

1:15:49

rates this whole thing that open up as black box

1:15:51

and things are better that them that link to me

1:15:53

what other systems and processes by which this beast that

1:15:55

is the dublin such since and how can we make

1:15:57

that for as so as we get to the. Rocket

1:16:00

He chapter. I want to read out

1:16:02

a couple of lines from Your Federalism

1:16:04

chapter Answer to Federalism and Decentralization Because

1:16:07

even though we did have an episode

1:16:09

on that, I think these two sentences

1:16:11

should make every Indian sit up and

1:16:13

take notice, because it is truly mindblowing.

1:16:16

Been including, you know, India spins only

1:16:18

three percent of his budget Of the

1:16:20

local government never compete over fifty percent

1:16:22

in China. While outsiders often think of

1:16:24

China is highly centralized, in practice, is

1:16:27

budgets are nearly seventeen times more decentralized

1:16:29

and and. Guess and good. And we could

1:16:31

speak for another five or six hours if

1:16:33

we just speak about decentralization now. But I

1:16:35

just want to use the sentences to kind

1:16:38

of read the book. Unsavory, but he's going

1:16:40

to go out deputy eat it. It's a

1:16:42

only six hundred pages, not eight hundred because

1:16:44

two hundred of those pages or notes and

1:16:46

on of that so do You should read

1:16:48

the notes as well. And innocent enough to

1:16:50

do in. this is good. Dive into the

1:16:52

footnotes and yeah, maybe some people will discover

1:16:55

Fukuyama at with imagine imagine beyond booming the

1:16:57

gateway to for gliomas works for another remarkable

1:16:59

public service. Of not against something that

1:17:01

I will because you know of the shortage

1:17:03

of time I would ask you to elaborate

1:17:05

upon but you also gave eight different reasons

1:17:08

and why the indian seat is ineffective or

1:17:10

source of his delivery and they're gonna dive

1:17:12

into the full of them. have beaches and

1:17:14

ineffective bureaucracy so legal sort of street to

1:17:17

your chapter treats of it's an end of

1:17:19

by the big budget to know the source

1:17:21

would be glad to know that got tickets

1:17:23

from as we many more episodes will probably

1:17:25

to one episode for chapter and be just

1:17:28

random fun episodes and between. Also. And

1:17:30

by the time you'll have witnessed next book, Snuff.

1:17:33

Let's. Talk. About like before

1:17:35

I begin talking about the content of the

1:17:37

chapter, I want to know what your journey

1:17:39

was an understanding the bureaucracy late as an

1:17:41

academy from a god or innocence. You're an

1:17:43

Indian, but you did your cat a mix

1:17:45

abroad as an academic from abroad. When you

1:17:47

begin their journey towards being a buckeye to

1:17:50

make and you know, dealing with the Bill

1:17:52

Gates. what was your initial impression of what

1:17:54

it will be like and you know, how

1:17:56

did that? He was a Simon with strong.

1:17:58

Is it a date? yet? You either

1:18:00

way, you're making me reflect an articulate

1:18:02

things which have just kind of happened

1:18:04

implicitly over a lifetime Mate mean and.

1:18:07

That I think it's the first spain of.

1:18:10

The. Guys, it's. Informed

1:18:12

us site with the frontline and in

1:18:14

instead. Happen in mine ah

1:18:16

you know my first meteor to says project that

1:18:19

was the studied this nationwide study of be to

1:18:21

than better absence in the public sector right to

1:18:23

This was my first speed project I was dead

1:18:25

and if i but that's when have been to

1:18:28

like dozens of villages in schools and like at

1:18:30

least I succeed schools clinics you go that's and

1:18:32

then you just kind of to be perfect seem

1:18:34

you talk to people and then like figure out

1:18:36

okay what does your life look like great mean

1:18:39

and exists then start seeing or can because even

1:18:41

if you go to a government office at me

1:18:43

to secretary at the very top yeah no idea.

1:18:45

Right about the layers and layers than under that

1:18:48

silt spotted. this then came from that level of

1:18:50

frontline conversation Dense than I would also go often

1:18:52

in that as part of that I would end

1:18:54

up meeting block and district level officers often because

1:18:57

you needed for me some lettuce or get a

1:18:59

coming so eventually but the study be got formal

1:19:01

person that has but from a pilot's before the

1:19:03

study had been approved by the government. Even at

1:19:06

that time to go like mean and get some

1:19:08

of these interviews it was considered to been to

1:19:10

go talk to the deal they come into. The

1:19:12

sophistication officer would give you a letter and things

1:19:15

when so. As about today's to go and

1:19:17

you know bucks on school in the process

1:19:19

of needing to permissions don't in the site

1:19:21

our kids I would have spend time in

1:19:23

distance education officer offices rates I can in

1:19:25

so and then you were talking like look

1:19:27

at Waterloo and it's okay this is a

1:19:30

guy was in size of like was on

1:19:32

discourse of campaign skills this is a serious

1:19:34

serious jobs okay and then you start thinking

1:19:36

okay so what kind of capacities that in

1:19:38

that office site that means do they have.

1:19:41

To the have a computer to they

1:19:43

have a visitor doesn't work on two

1:19:45

thousand and one to so many of

1:19:47

them just mean insults just defeated great

1:19:49

defeated work and as part of the

1:19:51

the bureaucratic process of getting permission to

1:19:53

get was encounters a little i don't

1:19:55

done like deep quality to studies of

1:19:57

those things like but those impressions kind

1:19:59

of. The first ones that I keep that

1:20:01

I started doing my next wave of more

1:20:03

detail working on the position where we would

1:20:05

do loves kill our cities so did I

1:20:07

would have spent time like you know again

1:20:09

with multiple levels of the bureaucracy Eight so

1:20:12

and that again goes back to my colleague

1:20:14

visit not kill cause of zipping late like

1:20:16

you know I mean think about that that

1:20:18

have been Liz okay Edwards things need to

1:20:20

find a passport to happens and so yeah

1:20:22

same with the principal secretary can agree the

1:20:24

commissioners site than Ukraine of be hard at

1:20:26

one was shop at the five district selectors

1:20:28

in the five to six years working. Than

1:20:30

that Mr. Physics math is as then we did

1:20:32

tending to the Mundell education officers to socialize them

1:20:34

about the project like an award. Is it that

1:20:36

the trying to do so in doing that obviously

1:20:38

I'm addressing that them but then you also at

1:20:40

once had tired coffee liqueur know you're talking you

1:20:42

know just kind of and that is my you

1:20:44

You obviously do a little bit of casual anthropology

1:20:46

on the board thing is is asking what does

1:20:48

it be in your life look like source My

1:20:50

typical question when I meet like the government from

1:20:52

city lot of the scene in that would be

1:20:54

talking policy preventing go to the fetus is to

1:20:56

ask where does it in her life look look

1:20:58

great them mean so that's that's kind. Of how

1:21:00

so I think what lien fun about the book

1:21:02

is none of these things that are didn't matter

1:21:04

that mixtape suck it because you don't end up

1:21:07

writing an academic economics paper saying okay this is

1:21:09

the day and the life of a block educational

1:21:11

site but up but there's been a lot of

1:21:13

other good work crates, a Yemeni Rana, a commuter

1:21:15

train as they cannot I would say it's the

1:21:17

best as before she became shuttle containers snake you

1:21:19

know as as a said your and oh best

1:21:21

site did be put these the one that was

1:21:24

known best and the settlers of the people with

1:21:26

ya many nights i can been on kind of

1:21:28

the post office the it doesn't mean. Answer the

1:21:30

about I think in the context of education

1:21:32

is very very nice. kind of characterization that

1:21:34

to say. Listen, you know most of these

1:21:37

mid level officials are no longer kind of

1:21:39

functioning as empowered managers with agency to kind

1:21:41

of manage their systems. But they really funny

1:21:43

thing is post offices eight and mean where

1:21:45

do you transferred orders down and you big

1:21:47

data and reports up? Okay so I'm an

1:21:49

overtime that's kind of. You know what happened

1:21:52

so much going back to my journey. Of

1:21:54

learning. So there's the field and then the readings. Great

1:21:56

the selective breeding of the high quality works the risk

1:21:58

of food has and other to does. That have

1:22:00

a nice paper. Recent is looking at the

1:22:02

impact of what to or beta mean and

1:22:04

so please look at or and they got

1:22:06

implementations and they look at the stuffing level

1:22:08

in a block block development offices or six

1:22:10

I mean and then if they just like

1:22:13

such start and cleared correlations between the stuffing

1:22:15

in the capacity in that office to come

1:22:17

into your quality of that was delivered right?

1:22:19

So I think at some point we have

1:22:21

this sub editor that's kind of and inside

1:22:23

which are some books and that is also

1:22:25

these other very nice books about which I

1:22:27

kind of you know not read and to

1:22:29

end. But it is skimmed and cited

1:22:31

with a book fans apologists. Sites like

1:22:33

a So this this Atkins good Does

1:22:36

it Does that include books and the

1:22:38

it's called a day parade like mean

1:22:40

by that's where I think this for.

1:22:42

Does somebody telling an official mental. Life

1:22:45

without it or not all others with a

1:22:47

deposit kids as a it's about mates are

1:22:49

still of anthropologist like who have been done

1:22:51

like can be put to good description sites

1:22:54

means to create a specific he studies I

1:22:56

think that is modest discard any and I'm

1:22:58

blanking paper tiger paper tiger height like and

1:23:00

mean is the one I also been anthropologists

1:23:03

items one's gonna name but the site nine

1:23:05

a coma threatened great up as a matter

1:23:07

of but yeah so there's been like good

1:23:09

work I think some of these to could

1:23:11

descriptions of the state of not come from

1:23:14

economists site. Like coming. So this then

1:23:16

goes back to. I don't think I've

1:23:18

answered your first question about kind of

1:23:20

the intellectual eclecticism scene and but it's

1:23:22

intellectual eclecticism comes when you are motivated

1:23:25

for the search by problems and not

1:23:27

by methods of it. So spinning say

1:23:29

that at what I get about is

1:23:31

the problem then you obviously have to

1:23:33

understand all sides. I think I love

1:23:36

being an economist because I still find

1:23:38

it probably and of I'll be damned

1:23:40

biased but I find it's the most

1:23:42

parsimonious framework the every discipline ads. It's.

1:23:44

Own sign of important lends to a

1:23:46

problem but I think in terms of

1:23:49

the ward off by of resource constraints

1:23:51

and constrain optimization and how are you

1:23:53

gonna with as a i find that

1:23:55

the conceptual to get of economics and

1:23:57

the and but it was a business.

1:24:00

The mean to be kind of. That's where the board

1:24:02

of the book is economics. But the reason it

1:24:04

is it incensed. And kind of, you

1:24:06

know, embellished with all of these are

1:24:08

the seals is because I'm motivated by

1:24:10

the problem and and question and not

1:24:12

the method. To your deadline

1:24:14

you came up with for Santa before she became

1:24:16

was shadow con legend. See what a great line?

1:24:19

Thoughts on what gives you a quick question. I'm

1:24:21

going to give you another nine and you will

1:24:23

have to tell me have it in, it's five

1:24:25

seconds. Who is this about? seats? and the other

1:24:28

line is before she became an almond hoarding. Question.

1:24:31

It is find yes yeah it's your to

1:24:33

untouched partner to get on Saturday put out

1:24:36

of this is now my throat as bad

1:24:38

a good buddy and the funny thing is

1:24:40

see game the show and sang and to

1:24:42

follow you didn't know that like you know

1:24:44

I mean and I was literally completing the

1:24:47

line though that at a lack of a

1:24:49

sudden little of that should be me listening

1:24:51

to usher the like you know and kind

1:24:53

of completing the line by got to get

1:24:55

both of you in this room and recording

1:24:58

together and will actually do in and.city is

1:25:00

singing Economists is what do you know the

1:25:02

discipline need me like as allows students piece

1:25:04

of the person snow and in a tote

1:25:06

bags us like you put me into sports

1:25:09

are no one had one don't you was

1:25:11

in a school no no I haven't heard

1:25:13

on episodes Edge and ah are so good

1:25:15

at know that that shocking has a city

1:25:17

and seated here are are you know as

1:25:20

you know and and I phonebook actually have

1:25:22

a loosely notice like to read but entertaining

1:25:24

in some parts makes you know you you

1:25:26

didn't is beautiful so as as as usual

1:25:28

ends of the use a good. The state

1:25:31

schools will stay by the tragicomic studio two

1:25:33

people discussing the food in a restaurant. The

1:25:35

first one sees the food at has settled

1:25:37

and the second months he's and abortions are

1:25:39

too small. Similarly a bureaucracy is both to

1:25:42

smoke and highly inefficient. Thus, we need to

1:25:44

increase staffing and capacity, but we also need

1:25:46

to do so in cost effective. these alongside

1:25:48

reforms to improve bureaucratic efficiency. Stroke good and

1:25:50

never has that going been made in such

1:25:53

an entertaining these who are thank you for

1:25:55

notices one of the most brilliant than a

1:25:57

metaphors as seen. Give me and say and

1:25:59

and. Woody Allen. It's not for me, but

1:26:01

that's again into footnote right? Like I mean

1:26:03

so Shirazi adding one of the journeys in

1:26:05

these have been drafted. My first draft was written

1:26:08

by the academically because it's low cardinal academic

1:26:10

since his to see something and pass it off

1:26:12

his own without kind of attribute thing at traits

1:26:14

that can be insults. And like I'm saying this is

1:26:16

it was of synthesis. I did some work of

1:26:18

leading broadly end zone of synthesizing insights from

1:26:20

many many many many people right and bring

1:26:22

it together a two daughters who contribution that

1:26:25

we the synthesis and not and many of

1:26:27

the underlying things. But when I

1:26:29

started writing and I'm to bring in

1:26:31

every sentence and been people then the

1:26:33

feedback was that eating doesn't. Feel right So

1:26:35

the one compromise have had to make and

1:26:37

it's kind of pains me as an academic

1:26:39

sees I would have wanted you to not

1:26:41

attribute that to me. I would have wanted

1:26:43

you to look at the footnote and saying

1:26:46

this is coming from Annie Hall which is

1:26:48

Woody Allen movies but that is so therefore

1:26:50

you know gentle reader don't connected me with

1:26:52

everything you read in the tax credit me

1:26:54

with same me the things that mattered and

1:26:56

putting it together right Victim you indus mosaics

1:26:58

to help you That Edo kind of. Put.

1:27:00

Together this. Boss or knows what's

1:27:03

on about this is that assume what's go

1:27:05

to such a to mean be. Against

1:27:07

seats so easy. To as a part

1:27:09

of my job you'd is too kind of. Make

1:27:12

the blood for the academic enterprise. Rate means that

1:27:14

for all it's flaws, keep it honest Loss Again,

1:27:16

it's got no, no question. Okay, that are things

1:27:19

that need to be fixed rates. but. The

1:27:21

others to this that. Early

1:27:24

stage funding of like public funding of the

1:27:26

sex okay he's like only steeds venture capital

1:27:28

with his stance you know ninety percent of

1:27:30

the so it's been sale or is crap

1:27:33

that can mean and of a lot of

1:27:35

it as negative value at okay because I

1:27:37

would say that up that all kinds of

1:27:39

negative incentives that come from food incentives to

1:27:42

publish garbage again on means that's negative incentives

1:27:44

because it is crowd the space with pain

1:27:46

it it's negative of and and is about

1:27:48

a tenth of you know another eight percent

1:27:50

of the set said you know that is

1:27:53

useful. Seen that us that has meaningfully

1:27:55

moving to thing poet and them as it is

1:27:57

one percent of like the truly innovative blockbuster things

1:27:59

that. The whole enterprise be for it's, afraid

1:28:01

to. That's exactly like early stage funding of

1:28:04

venture capitalists, so. This is why it's easy to find

1:28:06

a lot of. Crappy. This. It's easy to find

1:28:08

a lot of crappy paper sense, but don't

1:28:10

think about that in the ninety percent or

1:28:12

like of this feels start ups right? But

1:28:14

because startups fail we would not say that

1:28:16

the bit before. we should not fond of

1:28:18

it. So what I'm trying to do here

1:28:20

it is. Kind of collect those nuggets

1:28:23

of one percent. Greater mean over the

1:28:25

last will be as and package this in

1:28:27

a way of seeing gentle reader or it'll

1:28:29

be. And this is almost like what is

1:28:31

what I said yesterday that it's it's it's

1:28:34

I feel the public service an obligation, partly

1:28:36

because the entire academic enterprises did it cleared

1:28:38

and directly subsidized by the taxpayer. Okay so

1:28:41

this that I'm in a publicly funded university,

1:28:43

this taxpayer funded incentive for research and that

1:28:45

is their food. An obligation to kind of

1:28:47

them Think not. But that the mystique guns,

1:28:50

the mystique comes so that that I'm going

1:28:52

to say things that seem contradictory. But there's

1:28:54

of hundred and eight and one is a board

1:28:56

that there's an obligation of the academy this of

1:28:58

the public's but it's a mistake to insist and

1:29:00

practical relevance for any given to such but traits.

1:29:02

And that's because the way you make the second

1:29:04

happen is not of the level of an individual

1:29:07

project. You make it happen, that the level of

1:29:09

a portfolio Rights I can seen since the End

1:29:11

is a body of work it needs to serve

1:29:13

a broader public interest. When does it individual projects?

1:29:15

The job is to just be that of the

1:29:17

truth and that Maddow little piece, even if it

1:29:19

doesn't speak to detect policy impact. Eight. So and

1:29:21

this is a problem The donors. Often grown up

1:29:23

in ah in both under such a single gets

1:29:25

to me to policy the elements of this project

1:29:27

but it must. This is a twenty a process

1:29:29

okay and so because white sites i I have

1:29:31

to read out that you know I think that

1:29:33

is this paragraph I have in different that's what

1:29:35

acknowledgements is almost eight pages it's one percent of

1:29:37

the books or get like it or because it

1:29:39

is a lifelong se but isn't But one thing

1:29:41

is also thanked him on the funders I liked

1:29:43

him he knew funded the work but this is

1:29:45

a long times and each and part of what

1:29:47

I'm doing showed is going back to that. This

1:29:49

is that it again I think many things and

1:29:51

battle as like he. Said it. I've said it now,

1:29:54

but the academic part of me that I can say

1:29:56

without also attributing it's because I've heard him say it

1:29:58

right. But it's that's being bitter and said. The many

1:30:00

as eight when I'm talking to donors about

1:30:02

kind of the value of funding research, it

1:30:04

is that sites that all human progress has

1:30:06

on most human progress. I mean sometimes it

1:30:08

comes to some like not doing dumb stuff

1:30:10

like fighting wars but sports human progress has

1:30:13

come from new knowledge transmitting that knowledge acting

1:30:15

on that not that trait team and so.

1:30:17

The point is that ease and the certs

1:30:19

and academic enterprise. Can often appeared from the

1:30:21

Outsiders is incredibly pointless. Kind of bunch of

1:30:24

the sources. a good for discover. This is

1:30:26

because we publish everything. It's things often do.

1:30:28

You look at the bottom ninety percent and

1:30:30

sing it them. A Classic Rates. But that

1:30:32

is not due to think. About the enterprise the whole

1:30:35

enterprise is saying that you invest in kind

1:30:37

of promising ideas and then the ones that

1:30:39

have insightful cylinder value of the book legged

1:30:41

as this to say let's beat the insightful

1:30:43

nugget that have come from the work of

1:30:45

so many scholars, so many practiced as so

1:30:47

many people and package that for the non

1:30:49

academic leaders and you know that is hopefully

1:30:51

the so the sir I love the impression

1:30:53

defense of academy I know considered about. I

1:30:55

agree with although my two things you said

1:30:58

at the macro level or disagree in sense

1:31:00

of course I agree that do know should

1:31:02

not only look at the immediate applicability. You

1:31:04

haven't given stadium defend v Sex is

1:31:06

different so there's a problem. That academia

1:31:08

in terms of the incentive. Structures Three

1:31:11

It's that regard to research. Okay, so you're

1:31:13

not different academia size. The okay that that's

1:31:15

a great notification. A dependency Said to my

1:31:17

point is is as six I agree with

1:31:20

your defense of research. Sacked indicted does not

1:31:22

always have to show any media applicability. Gates

1:31:24

Who could. This is a signs of it

1:31:26

as a take that will emerge from from

1:31:29

it. You can do that. Rates have another

1:31:31

I think adverse the you know the winter

1:31:33

Capitan Those sort of analysts you doesn't work.

1:31:35

These are the incentives in the markedly. So

1:31:38

awesome that as creative destruction people decrease you

1:31:40

know. Everybody is taking part one into the

1:31:42

leaders know taxpayers' money been coors from people

1:31:44

like me that is in academy or the

1:31:47

incentives are deeply deeply deeply for topic as

1:31:49

as hookers your game that people are performing

1:31:51

to a different set of incentives the next

1:31:53

June a lot because getting in your that

1:31:56

said roads a drug getting driven into Natalie

1:31:58

in that old son was but. What

1:32:00

I'm saying. I mean none of this is

1:32:02

something you disagree with me of seeking you're

1:32:05

you're nodding vigorously. But yes, I

1:32:07

think it's important to close the the the loop.

1:32:09

Yeah right Which is what I said as I

1:32:11

was making the case for recess or and I

1:32:14

also agree with you with that Academia is one

1:32:16

institutionally farm that we have pleaded to encourage the

1:32:18

such, but it's by no means the only one

1:32:20

and inside skin or in many areas like the

1:32:22

cutting edge of the such as inside companies and

1:32:24

it's not kind of in universities because it is

1:32:26

a market test for the new idea. aside the

1:32:28

mean that you can apply. To emphasize that the

1:32:31

problems that can men academic and center sitting

1:32:33

out well known as a pot which I

1:32:35

would like to fix some hop right mean

1:32:37

is this is a premium on be novel

1:32:39

over been that took his it's not been

1:32:41

about two acres of it'll be qualified at

1:32:43

a bit more it's so you get a

1:32:46

studied the so something in one part of

1:32:48