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code shameless. This

1:45

is the Shameless Mom Academy, episode 869 with Melissa

1:47

Bond. Show

1:50

notes for this episode including any links mentioned

1:52

in the episode can be found by going

1:54

to shamelessmom.com and clicking on episode 869. Welcome

2:02

to the same Less Mom Academy.

2:05

I'm your host, Sarah Jane. I'm

2:07

here to give you and other

2:09

passionate, driven, unapologetic mom's stories, tools,

2:12

resources l Little biddy humor to

2:14

help you lead more powerful, positive

2:16

and purposeful lives every damn day.

2:19

So let's dive in. Melissa.

2:25

Bond is a narrative journalist, poet, and

2:27

matriarch to Salt Lake City's Slam. Seen

2:29

the Salt Lake City Tribune in the

2:32

New York have both and features on

2:34

Bonds book Blood Orange Nights, her memoir

2:36

about becoming dependent upon and then withdrawing

2:39

from benzodiazepine. His Blood Orange Night was

2:41

published by Simon and Schuster in June

2:43

twenty Twenty Two and was selected by

2:45

The New York Times as one of

2:48

the best audio. Books of twenties when he

2:50

to. Bond. Has been featured

2:52

on at Pbs Story in the

2:54

Public Square, Radio West, the podcast

2:57

Risk Endeavors, Psychology Unplugged, The New

2:59

York Times Podcast, and Mom's. Don't

3:01

have time to read books. When.

3:04

I heard about Melissa Story and her book

3:06

Blood Orange Night they knew I wanted to

3:08

have her as a guest on the show.

3:10

This is a story that needs to be

3:13

told for many many reasons and hims and

3:15

medical negligence and just to keep an eye

3:17

out for with your doctors and red flags

3:19

of medical professionals but also in terms of

3:21

a story of what can happen to a

3:24

mom when she's in a really vulnerable situation

3:26

as we all are in those early stages

3:28

of motherhood when we are struggling and so

3:30

many ways and sometimes have no idea how

3:32

much we're struggling because. The struggle is

3:35

real for so long it's a

3:37

starts to feel really normal so

3:39

listen in to hear Melissa share

3:41

Have a very common medical prescription

3:43

for insomnia led her to full

3:45

physical dependence on but Benzodiazepine. that

3:47

led to her rapid physical and

3:49

mental downward spiral. How she was

3:51

able to begin to put the

3:54

pieces together again around her unforeseen

3:56

medical dependence after narrowly escaping harming

3:58

herself and her daughter and a

4:00

fall for discovery that her myriad

4:02

of strange mental and physical health

4:04

symptoms were actually her going through

4:06

medication withdrawals every single day, her

4:08

decision to confront. The doctor who

4:11

massively over prescribed. Benzodiazepine to her

4:13

how the been so harmed

4:15

community relates differently to com

4:17

and terminology around dickson how

4:19

the shadow of same impacts

4:22

people's recovery from substance use,

4:24

substance dependence and substance abuse.

4:26

And her advice to moms who are mentally

4:28

or physically suffering with the demands of motherhood

4:31

and how they can get help from medical

4:33

professionals in the most cease interesting ways as

4:35

a hard story to listen to. but also

4:37

it's a treat to listen to Melissa share

4:40

it And so I'm so honored and grateful

4:42

that she was open a coming on the

4:44

show, Open to talking about Blood Orange Night

4:46

with us, open to sharing her story because

4:48

this is a story that needs to be

4:51

heard as many, many more stories. just like

4:53

Melissa's or invisibly, it's a scene out in

4:55

the world without people having. A platform to

4:57

talk about them for my hope. Is it

5:00

this story and what Melissa as learn will

5:02

help someone else listening who may be as

5:04

in a similar situation or does raise awareness

5:06

around the bend so harms community and what

5:08

can happen when you're at the hands of

5:10

a negligent doctor. So with all that please

5:12

join me in welcoming. Melissa Bond to

5:15

the seamless Mom Academy. Melissa.

5:18

Welcome to the Seamless Mom Academy! I'm so excited

5:21

to have you here! Oh my gosh, I'm thrilled

5:23

to be here with you! Think. This.

5:25

Conversation have been a while I mean and

5:27

some really excited that we finally get to

5:29

have it. but yet since in our little

5:32

pre com or pre interview here. I

5:34

know that while we have talked about

5:36

addiction in various ways on the podcast

5:38

before one of the things that are

5:40

he jumped out at me is how

5:43

it's so different for every person, it

5:45

and. It's so different for you

5:47

than anyone. Else he'd ever talks you on the show.

5:49

And so I think this piece is

5:51

gonna be really really helpful to our

5:53

listeners and really insightful and help people

5:55

see just kind of this full spectrum

5:57

of what life with substances sometimes taken.

6:00

Only. As they are prescribed from what

6:02

that can look like and how that

6:04

can up and one's life in ways

6:06

that you never saw coming. So. Welcome.

6:09

Yeah. Yeah, I think you. I'm excited

6:11

to talk about that too, because that

6:13

was something that said me completely by

6:15

surprise and I'd do it. Kind of

6:17

a singular definition of addiction and didn't

6:19

have all of the nuances that we're

6:21

going to talk about. so I think

6:24

yeah, it's juicy for shirt as yes.

6:26

So with all that, I'd like to

6:28

always ask folks when we get started

6:30

about the dynamics of your personal and

6:32

professional, the on your bio and is

6:34

there anything you're really excited about right

6:36

now. Oh. My gosh, my

6:38

life is so. Rich right now.

6:41

it's a it's but so.

6:43

First of all, this is part of

6:45

the juicy parts. I met the love

6:47

of my life a year and half

6:49

ago and that is just I can't

6:52

even describe some. My life is incredibly

6:54

rich in that capacity, and all of

6:56

these things that I've kind of wanted

6:58

to do that you've needed a partner

7:00

is happening and so that's really funny.

7:03

He also because of his support. One

7:05

of the things you and I chatted

7:07

about a little bit beforehand was that

7:09

so with my withdrawal from benzodiazepine, I

7:12

got down to five milligrams. Of allium

7:14

this was back in two thousand and

7:16

fourteen Two thousand and thirteen. Actually when

7:18

I got down there and I could

7:20

not get further I would try to

7:22

just do this liquid situation where huge

7:24

swing like micro of tapering and I

7:26

would have severe withdrawal symptoms and I

7:28

was full time mom a that and

7:31

with special needs and I just could

7:33

not get further So I did what

7:35

is called a long sold I didn't

7:37

know it at the time I thought

7:39

well maybe I'm getting a divorce in

7:41

all of these like life stressors. were

7:43

happening and i thought okay maybe

7:45

in a year maybe in two

7:47

years and of holding for the

7:50

it will be exactly ten years

7:52

and in part because of the

7:54

support from my partner i am

7:56

currently tapering the last five milligrams

7:58

of valley him and do exceptionally

8:00

well which blows my mind I'm

8:06

going to be a little bit

8:08

excited to talk about the things

8:11

that I've been through for a long time. I've been

8:13

through a lot of things like stroke and all kinds

8:17

of things before. So

8:19

that's what's exciting to me right now. I love,

8:21

I mean, that's a lot of big life stuff right

8:23

there. Yeah, very, very exciting. Thank

8:26

you for sharing that. So in your memoir,

8:28

blood orange night, you described the challenges

8:31

of parenting a newborn and navigating your second

8:33

pregnancy. And you

8:35

also had a dream insomnia. So can you

8:37

describe this experience and what that was like the toll that

8:39

it took? Yeah, it

8:41

was nuts. I mean, I've had, you

8:43

know, throughout my life, I have had nights where

8:45

I'm up for a couple of hours or, you

8:47

know, interrupted sleep and I

8:49

had, you know, this is what I call

8:52

the chamomile tea insomnia

8:54

where you have a couple of nights,

8:56

maybe they're crummy, but this was truly

8:58

an autonomic disruption.

9:01

So we found out later that my cortisol, which is

9:03

your fight or flight hormone was just like

9:06

spring out at like 9 p.m.

9:10

at night. So

9:12

my adrenals had sort of flipped their timeline

9:14

and my wake up

9:16

and go hormone was being shot out at 9

9:18

o'clock at night. So

9:21

I would be getting ready. It

9:23

was a, I think

9:25

two weeks into my second pregnancy, my

9:27

pregnancy with my daughter. And

9:29

I felt like there's a

9:31

scene in Pulp Fiction, and I'll describe

9:34

it just in case your listeners haven't seen Pulp Fiction,

9:37

where there's someone who has, Uma

9:39

Thurman, her character has like overdosed

9:42

on something, probably heroin, and

9:45

John Travolta shoved this huge needle,

9:47

it's very dramatic, of adrenaline into

9:49

her heart and like pumps her heart. I

9:52

set up and I felt like I had to

9:54

have this dramatic injection

9:57

of adrenaline. I remember like, sitting

10:00

up and felt jittery, went

10:03

out to the couch and I thought, wow,

10:05

pregnancy hormones are really intense, you know? I

10:07

said, yeah. I know what's going to happen.

10:10

And I watched the night go

10:13

from like dark to light. I

10:15

watched the clock tick down and I truly

10:18

don't believe I slept that first night at all.

10:21

And then each night subsequent, it was

10:23

like an hour, maybe two, maybe a

10:26

half an hour. And

10:28

this went on for throughout my

10:30

first trimester. I was really

10:33

close to a psychotic break. I

10:35

could barely function. And I had a

10:38

six-month-old with Garen's syndrome. Oh my goodness.

10:40

And so I would think to myself, okay, I

10:42

remember there was one time in particular I thought, where

10:44

did I put him? You know,

10:46

like put him on the bed. Did I put

10:48

him on the bed? Like he was up for

10:50

a nap and I'm running around the house panicking.

10:52

And of course I had put him in his

10:55

crib, but I just was so – anyone

10:57

who has gone through severe insomnia

10:59

knows that you lose your cognitive

11:01

ability, your body starts to break

11:04

down. So that was

11:06

happening. And finally, my nurse midwife put

11:08

me on Ambien with Benadryl.

11:10

And she was like, that should be safe

11:12

for the baby. And that was pretty awful,

11:14

but I got five – four to

11:16

five hours of sleep a night. And

11:19

then Ambien is very close, but

11:21

it's not similar to benzodiazepines, which

11:23

is what came later. So

11:25

this is kind of what started off this

11:27

whole journey for me. Yeah. As

11:30

someone who has struggled with insomnia

11:32

for decades and decades since I was

11:35

like eight years old, until I was

11:37

40 when my son was like three when

11:39

I finally was like, I need medication. Like

11:42

don't give me melatonin. I don't want your tea.

11:45

So I relate to that feeling of being wide awake in

11:47

the middle of the night, that feeling of like you go

11:49

to lay down in bed and you're like – your brain

11:52

is like, let's start today. Right. There's

11:55

18 things to worry about. Right. Right.

11:58

But also that feeling that you mentioned, and thank you for

12:00

now. mentioning like not remembering where you

12:02

put the baby. I remember doing errands

12:04

when my son was really young and

12:06

my sleep was really poor and like

12:09

coming in from the grocery store and having to consciously

12:11

think, wait did I bring the baby in from the

12:13

car? And then thinking, I have

12:16

a worse one, does everyone wonder if

12:18

they brought their kittens from the car?

12:20

So I that cognition and I think

12:22

that sometimes you know there's spurts of

12:24

that when you have a newborn where you've

12:26

had a few rough nights but when you have that

12:28

long term and I had it for a few years

12:30

into my son being born, it takes

12:32

such a toll and there's days where you're like

12:34

it just feels normal to be so mentally exhausted

12:36

that you're just like I'm fine this is just

12:38

normal for me but then there's moments where you're

12:40

like maybe this isn't normal like maybe I shouldn't

12:42

forget where I put my child.

12:45

Yeah that's not, that is

12:47

relatable. Thank you for sharing

12:49

that part. When you, you're

12:52

a route in seeking medical

12:54

support and then medication support

12:56

is that's not an uncommon

12:59

situation where you talk to your doctor, your doctor's like let's try

13:01

this and I went through this where the doctor's like let's do

13:03

a trial of three different things, see which one works and

13:06

I also want to point out that like Ambien is supposed to

13:08

be the thing that works for everyone and you said it gave

13:10

you four or five hours because that's what it was like for

13:12

me and I was like um I was expecting age but four

13:15

to five hours also felt like 10,000

13:17

percent better in 45 minutes. Great.

13:22

So it wasn't like huge for

13:24

me but I kept experimenting with things so

13:26

that's a normal sequence of events to try

13:29

medication and see what happens. Can you

13:31

talk about what then happened

13:33

as you're just following doctor's orders and

13:36

things shift from you being

13:38

able to get more sleep

13:40

to then being physically very

13:42

very dependent on these drugs.

13:45

Yeah so one of the things that

13:47

I didn't know and this is something

13:49

that points to a lot of the

13:51

fractures in our medical system. I did

13:53

not know with Ambien you should not

13:55

cold turkey it. This was never

13:58

communicated to me by my nurse midwife. nor

14:01

any other doctors and so I thought

14:03

my insomnia was hormonally induced because

14:06

I had never had insomnia to

14:08

this degree before so I was

14:10

like oh good I will deliver

14:12

my child my hormones will return

14:14

to normal and you know just

14:16

made a very like cognitively impacted

14:19

decision to stop taking the ambient

14:21

once I delivered my daughter. Not

14:23

a great idea but hadn't had

14:25

any medical consult otherwise you

14:27

know so I called Turkey

14:30

Ambien three months you know

14:32

and of course you get rebound

14:34

insomnia your brain because it's had

14:36

these drug really really plugged into

14:38

the gabber receptors which the gabber

14:40

receptors are what I

14:42

call the hush neurotransmitter they're the ones that

14:45

are the inhibitory neurotransmitter in your brain you

14:47

don't have it you've got a lot of

14:49

excitatory so there's a lot of activity going

14:51

on and there's no like flagging happening of

14:54

like okay we need to calm things down

14:56

because she needs to sleep so

14:58

I have rebound insomnia three months later

15:00

I am losing my squash entirely I

15:03

have two infants one with special needs

15:06

one of the things that had happened earlier

15:08

which part of what provoked the insomnia was

15:10

I had lost my dream job which was

15:12

working as an editor at a magazine you

15:15

know I was I loved it and so all of

15:17

a sudden I was like the Betty Crocker CEO of

15:19

the household and I did not feel

15:21

ready for that I had not planned on

15:23

that and you

15:25

know everything my whole identity was sort of

15:28

an upheaval so I go to this doctor

15:30

who's a doctor an MD but

15:32

also really interested in allopathic and

15:35

oriental forms of medicine and his

15:37

whole website is like we get

15:39

to the root cause of disease

15:41

and only use medication sparingly

15:43

and I was like great this is perfect I'll

15:45

be on both sides of the fence I

15:48

don't want medication but I want to find out

15:50

what's happening and I'm desperate so he

15:52

in the first appointment says it

15:55

sounds like you're an adrenal failure we've

15:57

got to get your adrenals back on mine we'll do a test

16:00

But in the meantime, so you

16:02

don't have a psychotic break while you have two

16:04

infants, I'm going to give

16:06

you this sedative hypnotic. It's a

16:08

great drug. I know a guy that's been on it for 19

16:11

years with no problem. You don't have

16:13

to worry about getting addicted to it and

16:16

you will sleep. And those are like magic

16:18

words. Like it's addictive. It's not going to

16:20

hurt my child. And I

16:22

will sleep. And that was the beginning of

16:24

the end, really, because he prescribed out of

16:27

an, which I later found is

16:29

in a family of drugs called

16:31

benzodiazepines. My mouth is like hanging

16:33

open. I worked in a psychiatric hospital.

16:36

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So we I mean, we now know the

16:38

FDA says

16:43

these drugs are addictive within the space of

16:45

a week. Like your body and

16:47

by addictive, I mean, there

16:49

can certainly be psychological dependence because that

16:52

fear factor that happens if you're an

16:54

insomniac where you're like, oh my gosh,

16:56

am I going to sleep tonight? Am

16:59

I going to sleep? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

17:01

There's also the physiological dependence where if

17:03

you stop taking it, then

17:06

you have at best rebound

17:08

insomnia. At worst, you can

17:10

have severe withdrawal symptoms. And

17:13

they don't really know why some people can take it for

17:15

a short period of time and be fine. And some

17:17

people take it for a short period. And by short

17:19

period, I mean, a couple of weeks. And

17:22

some people have extreme withdrawal

17:24

symptoms. And by extreme, I mean,

17:27

seizures, tremors, lack of

17:29

coordination, a feeling,

17:31

flu-like symptoms, all the way up

17:33

to like fatal seizure. And so

17:35

I was prescribed very,

17:38

very high dose and escalating dosages every

17:40

night by my doctor said take it

17:42

every night. Wow. Yeah. And

17:44

within six months, I had lost 20% of

17:47

my body weight and was literally practically

17:50

disabled. Like I could not walk a

17:52

block. I was having a lot of

17:54

breathlessness. I couldn't remember anything from one

17:57

day to the next. I

17:59

was in the black. pit of despair and

18:01

I was like wow motherhood really

18:03

takes a toll you know that

18:05

was the only thing I think of. Yeah my

18:08

experience with Ativan when I worked I worked with

18:10

children in a psychiatric hospital in my first career

18:12

out of college for seven years and in that

18:15

seven years the only use that we

18:17

had for Ativan with the children was

18:19

when they were so highly agitated that they were

18:21

a danger to themselves or to others and we

18:23

would give it to them basically to help them

18:25

take a nap to like help them like

18:29

it was very infrequently given but it

18:31

was like pick a nap and then

18:33

they would be like a shell of

18:35

themselves for like the next 12 to

18:38

24 hours and so when you talk about like

18:40

not being able to walk a block or feeling

18:42

like you're in this black hole like I

18:44

mean yes but that's what Ativan does

18:47

this is just so shocked that

18:49

your doctor was like. It is a

18:51

pharmaceutical hammer like it takes you

18:53

out and he so I

18:55

was initially prescribed two milligrams which is the

18:57

amount that they shoot you up with

19:00

if you've had a grand mal seizure in

19:03

the ER so two milligrams was my

19:05

starting dose within six months

19:07

he had up my dose because

19:09

it the efficacy had gone down

19:11

so quickly he had upped

19:13

my dose to six milligrams every

19:15

single night all in one shot.

19:18

Wow. Which is

19:21

almost criminal but I've heard that this

19:23

happens far more often than I can

19:25

even believe. Yeah. But I was a

19:27

very very high dose. This

19:30

episode is supported by a podcast

19:32

I want to share with you

19:34

called Understood Explains. So this show

19:36

is about navigating ADHD, dyslexia and

19:38

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19:40

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around a different theme. So

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there's a season on special education there's

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a season on ADHD diagnosis for adults

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and the current season is all about

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IEPs. I love this podcast because the

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20:12

plans. IEP, she talks about the

20:14

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20:16

She really breaks things down in a really clear and simple

20:18

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20:21

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20:23

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20:27

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20:30

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20:32

nuance of IEPs and special education and different

20:34

things on Understood Explained. So I want you

20:36

to go check it out wherever you're listening

20:38

to this podcast. You can go listen to

20:40

Understood Explained. Just go into your podcast app,

20:43

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20:45

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20:47

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22:51

How do you were you able

22:53

to pinpoint like maybe this is

22:55

the medication that's making me like

22:57

like how did you then puts

22:59

us all together yeah it's a

23:02

ten minutes. It took me down

23:04

so quickly and my cognitive capabilities

23:06

had been diminished. so on a

23:08

plaza was not sleeping well plus

23:10

I was a being and you

23:12

know the full time mom to

23:14

to pay so I was really

23:16

sanford and then fortunately in a

23:18

in a relationship with my now

23:20

ex husband were. His own

23:22

trauma kind of came up and he

23:24

sat down so I didn't have any

23:27

kind of reflection or support from him

23:29

because he he didn't understand what was

23:31

happening. So I think the only

23:33

thing that and have saved the day

23:36

with that they had such an extreme

23:38

you know it's having really extreme

23:40

symptoms but then one day I was

23:42

I'm taking my daughter had given her

23:45

a bath I'd picked her up,

23:47

was telling her off and walking her

23:49

to her bedroom. When. all of

23:51

the sudden i took a step and

23:53

it was like my legs were water i

23:55

just immediately fell like a dead body from

23:58

a bridge on an almost smashed both

24:00

of our heads into corner wall. Oh my

24:02

gosh. And I was laying there and I

24:04

thought, okay, I've been dismissing all of these

24:07

weird like GI and neurological things. Like I

24:09

couldn't eat because my stomach would cramp

24:11

up and I'd never been a poor eater.

24:13

Like I'd always been like, give me the

24:15

banana bread please, you know. So

24:19

it was really weird for me to be super

24:21

skinny and not able to eat and not able

24:23

to like walk a block. I'd been a marathoner.

24:27

But I dismissed everything. It's like, well gosh,

24:29

you know, I've got two infants in

24:31

denial. You know, I just didn't know what

24:33

to ascribe it to. But I'm laying there

24:35

on the ground with my infant daughter and

24:37

I think I've got a brain tumor. Like

24:40

that is the only all of these neurological

24:42

dysfunctions. You know, I had

24:44

a lot of like sensory issues going

24:46

on and I thought, well maybe I have MS.

24:49

This is how it starts, right? You have all

24:51

these like weird neurological things. And

24:53

then my legs came back after about

24:55

45 seconds and I thought,

24:58

wait a minute. In the last

25:00

like, what was it? This was

25:02

about a year at this point. I was like, I've

25:05

been taking this medication and the doctor said

25:07

it was safe. But I've always

25:09

been a researcher and it's the one time

25:11

I didn't research because I was so debilitated.

25:14

I just thought, give me anything.

25:17

And I went up and started doing

25:19

my research and I found out everything

25:22

I was experiencing was considered active

25:24

withdrawal from the

25:26

drug. So you were withdrawing, like you

25:28

were taking it at night, but by

25:31

midday the next day you were going

25:33

through withdrawal and that's what was giving

25:35

the symptoms. Yeah, that's what was so

25:37

wild to me was that it processes

25:39

through your body so quickly. It's the

25:41

nutrition of benzodiazepines so

25:43

that I was having inter-dose withdrawal. So during

25:46

the day I would be withdrawals. During

25:48

the night I would take a big dose and

25:50

I would get maybe five or six hours of

25:52

sleep max because my

25:54

body was reaching tolerance so quickly. Yeah,

25:57

yeah. So did you go to the

25:59

same doctor? the discovery of

26:01

research? No, I was horrified.

26:03

He'd also been very inaccessible. I

26:05

tried to go to see him

26:07

a couple of times, and he had

26:09

been in Costa Rica. He was, for some reason, gone

26:11

to Costa Rica a lot. And

26:14

I luckily had a friend who said to

26:16

me, I have a doctor who is amazing.

26:19

She's very much old school doctor,

26:21

really believes that she's this

26:24

friend of mine that said this doctor had come

26:26

and done a house call. And

26:28

so I checked in with this doctor, went to

26:30

see her, and I had, at this point, in

26:33

my research, found something called the Ashton

26:35

manual, which is written by Dr. Heather

26:37

Ashton. Now deceased, but is

26:39

one of the only manuals

26:41

on how to get off benzodiazepines

26:44

effectively without, I mean, and when

26:46

I say effectively, I don't mean

26:48

without withdrawal symptoms, but I mean

26:51

without having, suffering a fatal seizure

26:53

or psychosis, and hopefully

26:55

being somewhat functional. It's

26:58

a very, very, I call it

27:00

the Olympics of drug withdrawal, because

27:02

it is so prolonged and so

27:04

intense. I

27:07

found that, and I brought that to see

27:09

Dr. Kate and started working with her. She

27:12

had never gotten anybody off of benzodiazepines,

27:14

which was really interesting. She said, oh,

27:16

we are very good at putting people

27:18

on drugs, but not as good at

27:20

getting people off. So she

27:22

didn't quite know how to get me

27:24

off. And we tried for about five

27:27

months. We're unsuccessful, because my withdrawals were

27:29

so severe. And then I spent

27:31

another two months looking for an expert.

27:33

And that's when I found a guy

27:35

that was able to help me get down

27:37

to the five milligrams that I got to. Wow.

27:40

I have a lot of feelings about this doctor that

27:42

goes to Costa Rica. S3. I'm

27:45

sure our audience is wondering, and I

27:47

am too, was

27:49

there ever accountability? Did you have conversations with him?

27:51

Was it just kind of a move on, I

27:53

need to take care of myself situation? Or did

27:56

you ever have follow up care or conversations with him to

27:58

let him know what had happened? You know,

28:00

I love that you're asking this question

28:02

because everybody asked me that. And while

28:04

I was in the process, I felt

28:06

so fragile, right? And so focused on

28:08

like, I've got to just get myself

28:10

healthy. Like, I felt like it was

28:12

kind of terrifying to think of going

28:15

to his office, telling him what

28:17

would happen and truly like the

28:19

fear of being gaslit or of

28:22

him, you know, dismissing it,

28:24

whatever. So it wasn't

28:26

really until the book was published

28:28

in 2022, and then

28:30

we published the paperback in

28:33

2023. And my

28:35

editor prior to that said, Hey, we'd like to add

28:38

a new chapter, will you add a new chapter?

28:40

And I said, of course, you know, what do I want

28:42

to add? And I thought, what is the one thing about

28:45

the process that is unfinished? And I

28:47

was like, Oh my gosh, I never

28:49

confronted Dr. Amazing. And I thought, Am

28:51

I strong enough to do

28:53

this now? Because he could just, he

28:56

could blame me, there's a lot of

28:58

blaming of patients, you know, and patients

29:00

say, Hey, this medication is having horrible

29:02

effects. But I decided to

29:04

do it because I thought he's

29:07

still prescribing this guy, maybe

29:09

no one has ever confronted

29:11

him. So the last

29:13

chapter in the paperback is the story

29:15

of me actually coming to his office

29:18

with like a little Christmas guest sitting

29:21

there with my heart racing, like my

29:23

heart is racing. Yeah. And like he

29:25

comes out, and he's got

29:27

this Florida tan, and he's like, Hey,

29:29

his bright, shiny smile. And I'm thinking

29:31

we, you know, it's small Lake City,

29:33

I live in Salt Lake City. I

29:36

know him, you know, we both used to write

29:38

for the same paper, he wrote a healthcare call.

29:41

And I thought there is no way he doesn't know I've written

29:43

a book. But I said, Did you know I've written a book?

29:46

And he said, I had no idea. So

29:48

the last chapter is about me confronting him.

29:50

And then what happens? Oh

29:53

my gosh. Okay, so now everyone just has to go buy a book. You

29:57

see that teaser that we I love it. No, I love it.

29:59

I love it. it so much. I

30:01

so appreciate and respect that

30:04

you could recognize in the time in the thick of

30:06

it that this would just bring on more

30:09

trauma to do it to like have to manage that piece

30:11

then. But also

30:13

the healing

30:15

for you I'm hoping assuming

30:17

on like deciding

30:20

to go back to that much

30:23

much later and that's such a big

30:25

and bold step that you could have

30:27

overlooked but that you chose not to

30:29

and it's like in service of giving

30:31

your readers more for this paperback release

30:34

but also hugely in some sense yourself.

30:36

Myself and perhaps him like I thought

30:39

before I went I literally went through this exercise

30:41

with myself. I thought okay if I'm going to

30:43

go meet him I have

30:46

to be able to step into that room we

30:48

decided to meet at a T-house. I

30:50

need to step in there viewing him

30:52

as a human with flaws and complexities

30:55

that of which I'm unaware and the

30:57

metaphor that I use is this Hindu

30:59

goddess whose name in in Hindu I

31:01

can't pronounce right now but she's called

31:03

the never not broken goddess and

31:06

her strength comes in the fact that

31:08

she is always breaking and then always

31:10

reconfiguring and I thought that symbol is

31:12

so true of what it's like to

31:14

be a human. We are

31:17

being broken all the time apart by various

31:19

things in our life and we're becoming a

31:22

new self all the time and I

31:24

thought okay I can't

31:26

go in there just wanting to blame

31:30

him and tell him how awful you know

31:32

what an awful experience I had because he did read

31:34

the book. Can I

31:37

go in there and and really say you've

31:40

read the book I've said what I have to say tell

31:42

me what you were thinking how

31:44

do you think about these drugs now so

31:47

that part was really healing and

31:50

I think impacted his practice which

31:52

is huge. Yeah yeah oh

31:54

my goodness what a great bookend

31:57

to your experience. So when

31:59

we were talking hit record, you were

32:01

talking a little bit about this experience

32:03

of being on Valium now for 10

32:05

years. And something that was really interesting

32:07

that you said to me was that

32:09

in the recovery community, people have a

32:11

lot of ideas and some people have

32:13

very firm and rigid

32:15

ideas around what quote unquote

32:18

recovery quote unquote should look

32:20

like. And so I would

32:24

love to hear if you could share a little bit

32:26

because I think this is also a part of addiction

32:28

that we miss a lot is

32:30

that recovery can look like a lot of

32:32

different things. And what serves one person might not serve

32:34

someone else. And I think there can be a lot

32:37

of, you know, there's a lot of judgment around addiction,

32:39

but there can also be judgment around recovery. Can you

32:41

talk a little bit about you

32:43

mentioned being on Valium for 10 years now, what

32:46

has that been like over the course of 10 years? And

32:48

can you speak to maybe what that

32:50

has been like in terms of recovery communities or

32:52

conversations that you've been in? Yeah, oh, that's

32:54

such a great question. I love the way you framed

32:57

it. Because it is true.

32:59

And I talked with this woman

33:01

who was doing a recovery podcast.

33:03

And she said, I don't really

33:05

understand this whole, I can

33:08

still be on a little bit. She said

33:10

to me, that's like somebody who is a

33:12

drinker saying, Oh, I can just have a

33:14

couple of scotches at night and I'm fine.

33:17

You know, so in the addiction,

33:20

and by that term, I mean

33:22

substance use disorder. So the way

33:24

I describe addiction at the

33:26

way we use in this culture is

33:28

when someone has like

33:31

compulsion and a craving

33:33

to use and repeat of substance,

33:36

you know, and to such a degree that

33:38

impacts their lives negatively. That's

33:40

the typical description of addiction. When

33:42

you have something that is a

33:44

physical dependence that is has

33:47

only come about because of prescriptions from

33:49

your doctor, there's not that compulsion

33:52

element. There's just a physical dependency that takes

33:54

a long time to like, to kind of

33:56

wean your body off of it. So you

33:58

don't have these terrible So,

34:02

in the addiction community,

34:05

I think getting to .0 is

34:07

kind of, I think their belief system

34:09

is that your life is ruled by

34:11

the substance because of the compulsion and

34:13

therefore getting to .0 is really important.

34:16

That's my understanding of their perspective.

34:20

In recovering from physical dependence,

34:23

there may be a point at which,

34:25

which for me definitely happened, I could

34:28

not physiologically get off the drugs without

34:30

having like constant tremors and seizures.

34:33

I could not get below 5

34:35

milligrams. Which is terrifying. Right.

34:37

But I can't imagine deciding like, okay, well,

34:39

let's try it again. Hopefully I don't have

34:42

a whole bunch of seizures. Like, great. Such

34:44

a scary decision. It was terrifying. And at

34:46

that point, I was a single mom. I

34:49

was working full time. I'm supporting my

34:52

kids. I've got a son with a

34:54

disability. It was not something that I

34:56

could step into. And my body at

34:58

that point was not suffering. Like I

35:01

wasn't in decline because, to give your

35:03

listeners perspective, so I ended up being

35:05

on 6 milligrams of Ativan, which

35:08

is the equivalent of 60 milligrams

35:10

of Valium. So I tapered

35:12

55 milligrams of

35:14

Valium in about two years. And

35:17

those were two years of

35:19

active drug withdrawals. Like I

35:21

would drop, I would have

35:23

all kinds of withdrawals for about five days. I would

35:25

have about three or four days where I would feel

35:27

sort of okay and then I would drop again.

35:30

That is exhausting. Yes. Especially

35:33

when you're raising two kids. Yes.

35:35

I couldn't imagine even

35:38

trying to do that and hold a job, you

35:40

know, and make sure I paid the bills and

35:42

make sure I got, you know, had drove my

35:44

kids to soccer practice and did all those things.

35:46

So I talked with the

35:48

doctors that I was working with at

35:50

that time and they said, you know

35:52

what, five milligrams, we are not sweating

35:54

that. You are not in decline. Your

35:56

memory is fine. Like we're not worried.

35:59

I'm saying. And my addictionologist said, I'm fine if

36:01

you're on that for the rest of your life. So

36:03

I thought, maybe I will

36:05

be on this much. Maybe I will never

36:07

be able to get off without suffering such

36:10

intense withdrawals. So

36:12

what I am finding now, and in

36:14

the community, in the Benzo harmed community,

36:17

there are some people that

36:19

also feel, no, no, no, you have to

36:21

get completely off or you're like cheating or

36:23

something like that. Which I

36:25

think is just kind of a, which as you

36:27

said, I think is rigid and is not really,

36:30

doesn't really fit with what we know about some

36:32

people's bodies, just those drugs lock in

36:34

and they're like fish hooks. And if

36:36

you try to pull them out, you

36:39

will tear things apart. And

36:42

so the long hold for me

36:44

has been a time of great

36:46

stabilization. I think my neurology has

36:48

really, I've been able to excel

36:50

in my career. I've been able

36:52

to write a book, you

36:55

know, my kids are doing great. And

36:57

so that has been really healthy and it's

36:59

gotten me to the point where I decided,

37:01

you know, I'm ready to taper off the

37:03

last five. And I think if I had

37:06

continued trying way back then, I

37:09

think I just would have suffered and my kids would have

37:11

suffered. Yeah, that makes so

37:13

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39:56

you're just gonna have two drinks a day for the rest of

39:59

your life. to keep that at bay. And

40:02

what you're pointing out is that the

40:04

category of benzodiazepines, it's different. It's apples and

40:06

oranges. So it's not saying like have two

40:08

drinks a day for the rest of your

40:10

life because you know if an alcoholic were

40:12

to do that, the way that that disease

40:14

progresses is they can't

40:16

do that. But the way

40:19

that this disease progresses or allowing

40:22

you to be in recovery and be stable, it

40:24

just looks different. And I think that that's when

40:27

we think about addiction and we think about people in

40:29

recovery, I think that's where we can have a little

40:31

more curiosity and compassion and have

40:34

deeper understanding that like those aren't the

40:36

same things. But because I

40:38

think alcohol addiction is so more prominently

40:40

talked about, referred to, it's maybe what

40:43

we've more seen in our own personal

40:45

lives and family structures and things like

40:47

that, that it's easy to kind of make that

40:49

comparison and it's just it's not an accurate

40:52

comparison. It's not accurate. And the

40:54

thing that I will also add is that

40:56

for me, whether we're

40:58

talking about addiction or

41:01

physical dependency, the thing that kind

41:03

of overshadows all of this that

41:06

is part of our cultural lexicon

41:08

is this shadow of shame. Yeah.

41:10

I think, you know, that

41:14

shame is so toxic

41:16

to people's recovery that

41:19

I really, even though I make the

41:21

distinction, you know, I was

41:23

not addicted. I did not have compulsion.

41:26

However, those that are addicted because some

41:28

people do become addicted to benzodiazepines. I

41:30

have a dear friend who became

41:33

both physically dependent, but he also became an addict.

41:35

He started using it because he was like, Oh,

41:37

I feel so much better. And I liked it.

41:40

My friend Matt Sammet, he wrote a book about

41:42

his benzorecovery. He was using it to be able

41:45

to climb through a lot of rock climbing that

41:47

was really hard because it would chill him out.

41:49

That's addiction. It was compulsion. He was not

41:51

using it for any kind of

41:53

medical reason. However, when

41:56

we layer shame on top of

41:59

any kind of challenge that we

42:01

suffer from as humans. Like people don't

42:03

want to become addicts. They don't want

42:05

that compulsion. There's

42:08

something that that compulsion is feeling.

42:10

I think we miss the boat if

42:12

we, like I want to make

42:14

the distinction but the shame is not good

42:16

for anyone. And that's what I think we

42:18

really need to pay attention to. Yes, and

42:20

thank you for calling that out so explicitly.

42:22

I totally agree. I'm wondering when

42:25

we think about, and you've also,

42:27

I really appreciate you discussing the

42:29

difference between or the nuance between

42:31

addiction and physical dependence. When

42:34

you think about being someone who is

42:36

physically dependent because this doctor prescribed this

42:38

to you and then like you

42:41

now your body is in this extreme

42:43

state of dependence was for sure back, you

42:45

know at the time that you started to taper

42:47

down but still has some level of dependence. I'm

42:49

curious how you and people in this similar

42:51

situation and you've said the Benzo community, I think

42:54

is what you said, which like Benzo harmed

42:56

community, I think were your words. How

42:58

do you all relate to the addiction

43:01

community? Like do you consider

43:04

yourselves or maybe it's

43:06

a personal choice kind of a

43:08

thing but do you consider yourself part of

43:10

the addiction community or is this adjacent or

43:12

a subset or can you share that

43:14

a little bit? Yeah, it's a really

43:16

tricky one because this is why I

43:19

talk about the issue of shame because

43:21

I found that

43:23

within the Benzo harmed community there was

43:25

a lot of reactivity when people would

43:27

use the term addict. They would say

43:30

not an addict. This is something that

43:32

was prescribed by my doctor and I

43:34

just took it as prescribed and now

43:36

I am suffering immensely. I am not

43:39

an addict. And that points

43:41

to me to their

43:43

experience of being labeled in

43:45

a shameful manner like their

43:47

moral had gone awry and

43:51

while I think the distinction is

43:53

important because we need to be able

43:55

to treat those people whether an addict

43:58

or someone in physical. the

44:00

treatment modalities will be different. There will

44:03

be different ways that you address it.

44:06

I think making the

44:08

distinction because of that sense of shame

44:10

is missing the compassion we need to

44:13

have, that people simply

44:15

suffer. And the way they

44:17

address that suffering is different.

44:19

So I think

44:21

I'm a little different in the Benzo harmed

44:23

community. I think most in

44:26

that community that I'm aware

44:28

of really push back against

44:30

the addict language. And

44:32

they don't want that language. They actually, I

44:35

had an organization that refused to support

44:37

my book because addiction was a term

44:39

that was in my book. And they

44:41

said, we absolutely cannot be a torture

44:43

book because of that. And I felt

44:45

as though they had missed the larger

44:47

conversation. So

44:49

the distinction is important. So I guess I

44:51

would say for most of the community, it's

44:54

adjacent because it is a recovery, but

44:57

we have such, there's this

44:59

cultural anvil of shame that

45:01

exists over the addiction community.

45:04

And that's

45:06

something that needs to be addressed. And

45:08

because of that, I think the Benzo

45:10

harmed community is adjacent. Yeah, that

45:12

makes so much sense. I

45:14

want to go back to the beginning a

45:16

little bit to ask a question that can

45:18

help other women and moms,

45:21

whether it's related to insomnia or other

45:23

medical issues. If you could go back or

45:26

if you were talking to a new mom

45:28

who says they're really struggling with insomnia, what

45:30

would your advice be now? And what do

45:32

you want

45:35

people to know? Because I don't, this

45:37

isn't an uncommon, it's not an uncommon

45:39

experience to go to your doctor and

45:41

say, especially in early motherhood, Hey, I'm

45:43

really struggling with this or that. And

45:45

when your doctor gives you a solution,

45:47

you're just so grateful. And like, hopeful

45:49

and looking forward to support. Yeah. And

45:51

I don't like you absolutely did nothing

45:53

wrong. But is there anything

45:56

you would have done differently or you would Do differently

45:58

now? Oh, absolutely. I

46:00

do feel like I did everything I could.

46:02

I mean I went totally every single doctor

46:04

under the sun. in I saw a therapist,

46:06

I saw nurse practitioner, I saw sleep clinic

46:08

doctor, I saw natural path. I even saw

46:10

some and you know I was surprised. Okay,

46:13

When. I would say to new my and

46:15

I'm so passionate about this because. We

46:18

celebrate motherhood and yet at the

46:20

same time, a lot of mothers

46:22

do not get the support that

46:24

they need. One of the things

46:26

I realize now is that my

46:28

insomnia. Was a response. Holistically.

46:31

There's a new brand of doctors. And they

46:33

call themselves functional medicine doctors and they're. Basically

46:35

doctors that look at the whole picture

46:38

politically. there's sort of we really want

46:40

doctors to do Ten is there is

46:42

a way to look holistically, what or

46:44

any kind of things that have impacted

46:46

your life beyond having the kids. What

46:49

is your relationship like? Like I mean

46:51

I have lost my dream job. I

46:53

was suddenly in a role in a

46:55

very very Us and of toxic relationship.

46:57

you know which I was trying to

47:00

make work because you know this is

47:02

my new husband about two and sense

47:04

But if there's. Any way,

47:06

like getting psychological support.

47:09

Trying. To take a holistic look like what's impacting

47:11

my life? Like if you think of yourself as a

47:13

planet like what are the things that are like hitting

47:16

this planet right now. And.

47:18

When you go to your doctor. Do.

47:21

Your best to do research on the

47:23

medications they prescribe and I saved. Knowing.

47:26

That I had always been that person

47:29

and tell I was really really compromise.

47:31

And ah me, I can really compromise

47:33

you. So if there is that, maybe

47:35

somebody else that you can check in

47:38

with because there are a lot of

47:40

if you go a pharmaceutical are out.

47:42

There are a lot of things that

47:45

are far less damaging and less addictive.

47:47

You know, so sick of it as

47:49

like a toolbox for me. Now there's

47:52

a wellness tool kit that ideas because

47:54

I'll still sleep is still an issue.

47:56

In I will use. Those things

47:58

which to the least. calm first. So

48:02

for me, I have community supported acupuncture.

48:04

I make sure yoga, I make

48:06

sure my diet is spot on. I make

48:09

sure all of the things,

48:11

good sleep hygiene but

48:13

also just having real compassion for yourself

48:15

because being a new mom is one

48:17

of the hardest things in the world.

48:19

Your whole life is changing, your identity

48:21

is changing and your

48:24

life surrounding it could

48:26

be changing. So having counsel with somebody

48:28

else that you really trust and then

48:31

trying to do your research and a

48:33

lot of compassion. Thank

48:35

you for that. I joke with

48:38

friends and also with my doctor

48:40

about my medical degree from Google

48:42

University. Every time I go to the doctor and I'm

48:44

like, oh, I'm a little bit worried about this thing

48:46

over here and the doctor's like, well, that's fairly normal

48:49

for you, your age, whatever. And I'm like, well, I

48:51

just wanted to make sure it's not any and then

48:53

I have my list of like five things that are

48:55

on Google because it could be any like should we

48:57

screen for these? Right, right. And

49:00

I'm like, now I just sound like prepared to roll your eyes.

49:02

I brought a list. Which

49:05

if they are a good doctor, it will

49:08

say yes, I want us

49:10

to be engaged like because if you

49:12

don't feel comfortable and you and you

49:14

have to trust yourself, you know, and

49:16

you also have to like know

49:18

that you're with a doctor that you trust doctor making

49:20

for me with a new doctor. I

49:22

didn't know how sure that he was. I

49:24

just was, you know, going for

49:28

it based on what I have a website. Yeah.

49:31

I haven't worked specifically with a functional medicine doctor,

49:33

but I've worked for years with a naturopath who was also

49:35

my midwife. And one of the things that stood out to

49:37

me at the very beginning of our care and that

49:39

has now any of my friends who I get

49:42

to confirm an MD to an

49:44

ND or doctors that do both because there's definitely

49:46

doctors that have both backgrounds. They are always

49:48

blown away by how an appointment, typical appointment

49:50

goes from like 15 minutes with

49:53

an MD medical doctor to like

49:55

60 to 90 minutes with an

49:57

ND naturopathic doctor. And I

49:59

think that That allows you to

50:01

build that relationship, allows you to build

50:03

trust, but you have full-on conversations about

50:05

so much broader context of

50:08

your life, which you mentioned, and that

50:10

really, really shifts the kind of care

50:12

that you get, and that's

50:14

been a huge game changer for me, and I always like

50:16

to mention that, that if you go to an MD and

50:18

ND, just making sure that you're in

50:20

a place where you really feel seen by

50:23

whoever your care provider is and

50:25

continuing to search till

50:27

you find that person. And I think also

50:30

being aware that a lot of

50:32

the MDs right now are really,

50:34

they are being squeezed

50:36

really tightly by the insurance companies,

50:39

so they're being pushed to get in

50:41

as many people, and then with each

50:43

diagnosis, they have to have

50:45

a code for a diagnosis, and then the insurance

50:48

companies will pop up the kind of medication to

50:50

treat it. Their ability

50:52

to treat the way they want to,

50:54

a lot of times, is severely compromised.

50:56

Yes, yes, yes, my comment was not

50:58

intended to be like bashing of the

51:01

medical doctorate community. It is the constraints,

51:03

let's bash the insurance industry. Yeah.

51:06

That's where we really do. It's systemic.

51:08

You know? Yeah, yeah. But even when

51:11

I was working in psych, 25

51:13

years ago, for children to

51:16

get medication, they had

51:18

to have a diagnosis, and in order for them

51:20

to get a hospital stay, they had to have

51:22

a diagnosis, and for them to get more days

51:24

added, they had to get diagnoses added, so we

51:27

got a lot of kids who needed 21 days to

51:30

medically stabilize, and they could only get 21

51:32

days if the doctor diagnosed them with ADHD

51:34

and ODD, which is Oppositional Defiant Disorder. So

51:36

there was this massive influx of kids that

51:38

we got who left a hospital with this

51:41

diagnosis because that's what got them 21

51:43

days of medical care, covered by insurance, and these were

51:45

people that couldn't pay out of pocket for 21 days

51:47

of hospital care. Right, right. So

51:49

yeah, it's such a... I'll

51:51

stop us before we get... I think I'm

51:53

getting a little nervous. We

51:57

can both get on the soapbox here, but... I know,

51:59

I know. Melissa, this has been so

52:01

fabulous. Can you tell people where can they

52:03

find you, where can they find Blood Orange

52:05

Night and all things about you? My

52:08

website is melissaabond.com

52:10

and my Instagram

52:12

handle is at

52:14

MelissaBAuthor. Those are the two best places

52:17

that I'm really active. Then you can

52:19

find my book. It should be in

52:21

local bookstores. It's on Amazon. Really easy

52:23

to find. I do recommend getting the

52:26

paperback because that has the additional chapter

52:28

which I feel like really rounds

52:30

out the whole story. It's nice ending.

52:33

Yes, yes. I mean everyone needs to

52:35

know now. Everybody needs the paperback to

52:37

get that chapter. Find out what does the

52:40

doctor say? What does the doctor amazing say? Oh

52:42

my gosh, yeah. Thank

52:44

you so much Melissa for everything that you're doing

52:46

and to support people

52:48

within the Benzo harms community but also

52:51

to add awareness and create more empathy

52:53

and compassion for people who are experiencing

52:55

this because it's not nearly

52:57

as uncommon as people might assume. In

53:00

addition to that, can you tell people how you're currently showing up

53:02

as a shameless mom? Oh my gosh,

53:04

how am I currently showing up as a

53:06

shameless mom? My

53:10

daughter is 14 and I've

53:12

become the sex educator for her and all of

53:14

her friends. Oh my gosh. I love it. They

53:18

come to me. They're like, I say, okay,

53:20

I will answer your question. I do in

53:22

my head and like developmentally appropriate. I'm a

53:24

big advocate of like proper

53:26

sexual education. So

53:29

my daughter is apparently the one that everybody comes

53:31

to when they have questions. Love

53:33

it. I love it so much. That's so great.

53:35

I don't feel like anyone else in almost 500

53:37

interviews has said that before. So you can really

53:39

wear that one with pride. People

53:43

are always like, what do you want me to say for that

53:45

question? I'm like, whatever comes to mind. My

53:48

daughter is like, I know everything and I was

53:51

like, great. I would rather you hear it from

53:53

me than from the internet. Totally. Yeah.

53:56

And then I love it. I love it. Or about the

53:58

sacredness of sex and all that. Yeah,

54:00

I love it. Oh my goodness. Okay,

54:02

so I will link everything in the show notes

54:04

that people go to shameless mom calm Click on

54:06

the episode with Melissa bonds will have everything linked

54:08

for the book and Instagram and Melissa's website Thank

54:11

you for being here. I appreciate you Melissa. And when you write the

54:13

next book you got to come back. Oh Absolutely.

54:15

Yep. It's a plan. Thank

54:17

you for joining me in the shameless mom Academy today

54:19

It is always a pleasure and a total honor to

54:21

be in your ear Please make sure

54:24

you are subscribed to or following this show

54:26

on whatever podcast platform you're using This ensures

54:28

that you never miss an episode You

54:30

can find everything related to the

54:33

shameless mom Academy at shameless mom

54:35

calm and you can inquire about

54:37

my speaking consulting and coaching services

54:39

where I help women leaders small

54:41

business owners and organizations build thought

54:44

leadership and Communication confidence over at

54:46

Sarah Dean calm. That's Sarah. No

54:48

H sa ra de an calm

54:50

Sarah Dean calm until next time

54:53

know that I appreciate you so

54:55

so much You

55:08

I'm Margaret and I'm Amy and together

55:10

we host the podcast what fresh hell laughing

55:12

in the face of motherhood Margaret

55:14

I would say you're sort of a where are my keys

55:16

kind of mom? Correct. Sometimes the

55:18

where my kids Well,

55:21

you're Amy more of a we were

55:23

supposed to leave 35 seconds ago mom

55:25

I'm too say and each episode of

55:27

what fresh how we come at a

55:29

topic from our usually completely opposite Perspectives

55:31

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55:33

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55:36

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