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February. There

0:47

and welcome to show the shit

0:49

no one tells you about writing.

0:52

I'm Bianca Moray and I'm joined

0:54

by Calling Waters and Cc Lire

0:56

from Ps Literary Agency. Will be

0:59

kicking off today's episode with I

1:01

Usual Books with Hook segment after

1:04

which will go to today's guest.

1:06

Hello! Everybody welcome to another episode

1:08

of the Shit or tells about writing.

1:11

This is our Books with Hooks segment.

1:13

We have a very special guest with

1:15

us and I'm going tell you all

1:17

about our special guest, A Leash or

1:19

Clancy Issued an executive editor at Amazon

1:22

Publishing specifically with the Lake Union imprint

1:24

and Monday's Book Studio which includes Historical

1:26

fiction, Book Club books, women's fiction, and

1:28

more. Prior to joining Ems Are Publishing,

1:30

Alicia worked at St. Martin's Press, a

1:32

Macmillan imprint. She has a British husband

1:35

in an Australian cattle dog named. Whiskey.

1:37

Some of her favorite activities include hiking source

1:39

I go She currently lives in California and

1:41

she is from Johnson City, Tennessee and was

1:44

into those writing that out I was like

1:46

i can't write that it without trying to

1:48

think wagon Wheel because it's like Johnson City

1:50

Tennessee And anyway so I wagon wheel my

1:53

head and everybody else going away. Can we

1:55

homer had as well? But welcome to the

1:57

show Thera when claim to fame. Thanks

2:00

for having me. We're thrilled to have

2:02

you here on the show with us.

2:04

Okay, I am going to read the

2:06

first query letter. Dear Bianca, Cece, and

2:08

Carly, thank you for all the shit,

2:10

with so many alleged writing experts blasting

2:12

out advertisements at hopeful authors. I immensely

2:14

appreciate your podcast that sets you apart

2:16

and shows you really know what you're

2:18

talking about as authors, agents, and

2:20

just people who enjoy good books. I'm

2:22

pleased to present the book, which

2:25

a 47,000 word middle grade fantasy

2:27

novel full of excitement, intrigue, and

2:29

surprises sure to capture any young

2:31

reader's imagination. Those captivated by sinister

2:33

tales and moral dilemmas, like The

2:35

Worlds We Lead Behind by A.F.

2:37

Harold will love this story, as

2:39

well as those who long for

2:41

the feeling of discovery found in

2:43

The Last Mapmaker by Christina Surruntavat,

2:45

or Once There Was by Kajash

2:47

Mansif. Great books are not written

2:49

by brilliant, all-knowing authors. They are

2:51

written by book witches lurking in

2:53

the shadows and stealing souls to become

2:56

the world's most compelling characters. With a

2:58

well-crafted setting and the right catalyst, a

3:00

book witch only has to drop in

3:03

the characters to watch the worlds write

3:05

themselves. Alondra, the book witch, hiding within

3:07

the eccentric architecture of the historic Blackstone

3:10

Library, may have found her most desirable

3:12

soul yet. It belongs to the clever

3:14

but lonely 11-year-old Lydia Fletcher,

3:16

who comes to the library daily. Lydia

3:18

is lured into the magical world where

3:21

she can enter into any story and live

3:23

as a character in any book. She captains

3:25

pirate ships, flies over mountains, and

3:27

battles monsters, while Alondra

3:29

tests her with seemingly insurmountable challenges.

3:32

Using her quick wit and imagination, Lydia

3:34

overcomes each obstacle, proving herself to be

3:36

the perfect protagonist. Lydia's ultimate challenge awaits

3:38

her in the real world where she

3:41

will find out if she has the

3:43

courage and creativity to escape the clutches

3:45

of Alondra herself. The story provides

3:47

a satisfying twist And standalone plot,

3:50

but like any good middle grade book,

3:52

it has serious potential. The Full manuscript

3:54

is available upon request, if you ask

3:56

nicely, with a couple of degrees and

3:58

multiple professional experiences. I have lived

4:01

many different lives in several different places.

4:03

Currently I am living in Grand Rapids,

4:05

Michigan with my wife. Dogs are grown

4:07

children lurking close by. Thank you for

4:10

your time and consideration. Sincerely J. Crossman.

4:12

Thank you for that. Highly what will you take

4:14

on the query letter and what was the word

4:16

count are? It's the word count came in at

4:19

three hundred and eighty words. On the query

4:21

letter I was. Really? Taken with this concept, I

4:23

thought it was kind of just like Sweden. Different

4:25

and fun and like a little bit spooky

4:27

which I think is a really awesome combo

4:29

for middle grade middle great as one of

4:31

those categories I got wrath of really at

4:33

a really rough a heard of it so

4:35

it's not something where I didn't know always

4:37

exactly what's going on the marketplace for this

4:39

but I'm starting to read novels to my

4:41

son in the middle grade categories of starting

4:44

to get a sense of okay, like this

4:46

is kind of genre expectations, the kind of

4:48

level of like spooky, nasser humor or whatever

4:50

cost to go into the balance of their

4:52

so I think for me that checks olive

4:54

the boxes in that sense. Morning I

4:56

think is really interesting about this book is

4:58

publishing Sometimes has a fascination with this idea

5:00

of like books about books which can sometimes

5:02

really work in it's favor if it's unique

5:05

or sometimes tips publishing people. It's like we've

5:07

worked in the book business like some bank

5:09

settlers and they're so I think in this

5:11

case because it's kind of like a spooky

5:14

supernatural element to it. I think that this

5:16

is a really. Fun take so I think

5:18

there's a lot of fun. To be had here.

5:20

But in terms of. That. First line of

5:22

of the plot paragraph that has great books

5:24

are not written by a brilliant all knowing

5:26

authors Stuck Caught me off guard a little

5:28

bit because like I, I work in book

5:30

publishing in the know my are you talking

5:32

about like you The Other Eight or this

5:34

like a preamble for the concept of the

5:36

books I think that would be really fun.

5:38

Jacket copy I didn't really know if that

5:40

made a lot of sense as query letter

5:43

copies I was one thing I had a

5:45

note of. The other thing that I think

5:47

is kind of missing here is like wrapping

5:49

her head around the world like did the

5:51

people do. the writing or took the witches

5:53

make the writing actually appear like what parts

5:55

are magical what parts are real that really

5:57

was not clear to me because i think

5:59

the concept is really fun in terms of

6:01

like, which is writing books. That's really cool. How

6:04

magical are they? All of this stuff is still

6:06

kind of to be discovered and to be seen.

6:08

So that piece, I think definitely has to come

6:10

through here. The other thing that I think is

6:12

missing is the obstacles and the stakes in the

6:15

real world, because it seems like we kind of

6:17

understand there is a magical premise, which again is

6:19

awesome. I think it's a great magical premise, but

6:21

there has to be stakes in that world and

6:24

in our world. And right now it's just like,

6:26

oh, she just goes off and does things in

6:28

that world, which is cool. Flies

6:30

over mountains, battles, monsters. So it seems like potentially

6:32

in that world, we have some stakes, presumably. In

6:34

this world though, I don't really get a sense

6:37

of like, what is going to happen because it

6:39

says the ultimate challenge awaits her in the real

6:41

world where she'll find out if she has the

6:43

courage and creativity to escape the clutches of Alondra

6:46

herself. So the witch doesn't want her to come

6:48

back to the world. And she's just like fighting

6:50

to come back. I don't know. I think, again,

6:52

it sounds like the puzzle pieces are there, but it's really

6:55

not clear to me. And I know in

6:57

a query letter, especially in a fantastical

6:59

world, there's a lot we need to get into these 380 words. So

7:01

I get it. I'm

7:03

just a little bit confused about like what the

7:05

kind of magnitude, I guess, of the magic that

7:07

would be something that I would want to know

7:10

a little bit more. And then in terms

7:12

of the kind of closing elements, I

7:15

would say your bio is

7:17

pretty vague. And I don't know if this is

7:19

intentional. It kind of comes off as intentional, like

7:21

a couple of degrees, multiple professional experiences. I

7:24

don't know if that was for the sake of

7:26

the podcast. Again, some people don't want to blast

7:28

their whole lives on the podcast. And that's perfectly

7:30

fine. You don't have to. I would just let

7:32

you know that if this is something you're sending

7:34

out to other professionals, it just doesn't really tell

7:36

us that much about you. And then the little

7:38

like full manuscript is available upon request. If you

7:40

ask nicely, like that came off kind of

7:42

snarky to me. I don't know if I'm just like jaded or

7:44

something that I was like, I read a lot of query

7:46

letters. So I don't think that we

7:48

need that. Again, maybe that tone would come off

7:50

differently to somebody else. But I don't know if

7:52

it was working for me in particular. But yeah, I

7:54

don't know. I think this is a really fun premise. It's

7:57

just like it does the query letter

7:59

execute this vision. I'm not sure

8:01

about that. So Alicia, I'm

8:03

gonna hand it over to you for you to tell us

8:05

what you thought of this query letter. Yeah, I

8:07

think there's a lot of things that we agree on,

8:10

though I'll start with what we disagree on. And I

8:12

loved the, if you ask nicely, like it made me

8:14

chuckle. I thought it added a little personality, which

8:17

to go back onto another one of your points,

8:20

I thought could have been missing a little bit

8:22

from the author bio. So I thought that that

8:24

did a little to mitigate some

8:27

of the vagueness for me. I felt like

8:29

there was a little bit author personality shining

8:31

through, but I did have the same note

8:34

about the bio and whether it was vague

8:36

intentionally, like are you in the CIA? Do

8:38

you wanna add a little snarky joke about that? If

8:41

that's why you're being, you know,

8:43

so close shadows about it, but I

8:45

wasn't sure. And I think that if

8:47

there's no reason to be intentionally

8:49

vague, I would recommend adding in

8:51

more specifics. You never know what

8:53

an author or an editor or

8:56

an agent might relate to or

8:58

find in common with some of

9:00

your own experiences. So

9:03

I think that it would be a

9:05

service to add a little more specificity

9:07

to your bio should there

9:09

not be a reason to keep it

9:11

vague beyond maybe just not wanting it

9:13

broadcasted on the podcast. So

9:16

there's a couple of things we agreed

9:18

on. I also found myself confused about

9:20

the premise of

9:22

the witches and how exactly that

9:24

magic in the world building worked

9:27

around it. So I was in

9:29

agreement with Carly there. That

9:31

was my first note. And then

9:33

my other note was

9:35

around why we spend so much time on

9:39

the book witch versus the protagonist

9:41

who I believe is narrating the

9:43

story. So if

9:45

it's a dual narrative and we're getting both perspectives,

9:47

I think that might make a little more sense.

9:49

But one thing that had stood out to me

9:51

on the query letter is that we don't even

9:54

get introduced to our protagonist Until

9:56

we're about halfway through the letter. And I

9:58

Feel like that is something that... I

10:00

would I just to have her

10:02

running the show. And then we

10:04

get introduced to the challenge in

10:06

the Steaks of The which is

10:09

after we know who we are

10:11

cheering for. In the novel I

10:13

also had read about the steaks

10:15

been unclear and the real world.

10:17

My understanding of it if and

10:19

putting the puzzle together the right

10:21

way is that she is at

10:23

risk of being dropped into a

10:25

story and taken out because she

10:27

has such a perfect protagonists. But

10:29

again. Because it didn't know how exactly that

10:31

worked. are all the people and. People.

10:35

Who got stolen and put? Into these stories

10:37

in there we have. The Defeated

10:39

which is the that people simply getting

10:41

kidnapped and put into series or is

10:43

it something different? So I think I

10:45

had some the same questions. I don't

10:47

like the idea of the library setting

10:49

and the books about block. I agree

10:51

with currently the that can be over

10:53

time but I think for middle grade

10:55

category it works and I think they're

10:58

probably a little less inside baseball of

11:00

the publishing. World that we are in maybe

11:02

more adult. Section about an adult section

11:04

Ask us to have books about box.

11:06

That. Yams, it can be over done

11:08

so I thing for this particular category.

11:10

I like it and they think that

11:12

it's a good setting for this particular

11:15

story and next lot of sense for

11:17

said journey that the character is going

11:19

on. In terms of the set up

11:21

I feel can just going backwards or

11:23

sorry that something sell out of order

11:25

Everyone but going back to the opening

11:27

I thought that the com sounded pretty

11:29

god they were in. I double checked

11:31

though as they were pretty recent which

11:33

is always a bad thing. They all

11:35

had fantastical elements to them sympathies. Set

11:38

up a desert. probably good choices, but along

11:40

with parley, I also do not work on

11:42

middle grade as a part of my career,

11:44

so I'm not as familiar with the world.

11:47

But. Based on looking those up and the

11:49

pitch letter, I feel like I had a

11:51

good idea of who the audience for this

11:53

particular book was or.that those were well chosen.

11:55

I think that's it for me. ccd want

11:58

to tell for you? but the thing. The

12:00

most it out to me personally was

12:02

the world Like the line Great books

12:04

are not written by brilliant all knowing

12:06

authors, they are written by book which

12:08

is now that is a line of

12:11

really stands out. A really piqued my

12:13

curiosity and makes me want to know

12:15

more. It gets me really excited at

12:17

the same time unless there's like clarity

12:19

on what that actually means for our

12:21

world which the point that both Annalisa

12:23

have made we don't really get it

12:26

like you know like to Leashes point

12:28

about our the protagonists and books. Where

12:30

they at once fun time real people. Can

12:32

we get them back if they were? Is

12:34

that possible? or at least avoid future people

12:36

from being kidnapped. Do you even want that?

12:38

Because I want great books? Is it worth

12:40

the price of kidnapping people I do not

12:42

known as an ethical dilemma point is as

12:44

he ever really delightful premise as in for

12:46

all super engage with it and he can

12:48

see by our conversation. but third world needs

12:50

clarifying because if you mean that the books

12:52

at the Which is right or the great

12:54

ones and we don't even have access to

12:56

them in our world then I think the

12:59

problem is that it. Feels to removed. You

13:01

know I almost want to have like a

13:03

more direct connection with our world such as

13:05

something to think about. But now it's Move

13:07

on to the pages Carly will you give

13:09

us a summary of what happened in the

13:12

opening pages? Are. Right we meet

13:14

our protagonist. She is at Blackstone

13:16

Library for name is Lydia. This

13:18

very stormy day we get the

13:20

sense that is very like hassle

13:22

like structure. We understand that it's

13:24

in Chicago and her mother works

13:26

at the library so she is

13:28

on her kind of on floor

13:30

doing work and or protagonists. She's

13:32

him from little nook in the

13:34

library she's reading a lot of

13:36

folks is kind of like sneaking

13:38

and snacks. We get the sense

13:40

that she spends a lot of.

13:42

Time there. and Bernie's the librarian that was

13:45

kind of walking around checking on everybody is

13:47

like two hundred a sister. She's making lots

13:49

of noises but because of that is very

13:51

comfortable. The Library: We understand that her mom

13:54

kind of has a lot going on in

13:56

her own life and that in on live

13:58

the reason that she left the library as

14:00

she kind of gets to use it as

14:03

an escape. So it's a very stormy day,

14:05

there's lots of like thundering that sort of

14:07

thing. I think if I caught this rate

14:09

that there is some. Sort of like

14:11

potentially magical thing that comes into the

14:14

room, but. It's like was maybe saucer think it's the

14:16

library and or maybe not which I thought was kind of.

14:18

Cool And then this is kind of

14:20

like more storms and and that's where

14:22

we and wonderful Carly Thank you and

14:24

what was your take on the execution?

14:26

All right So I I really. Liked

14:28

how cinematic the visuals

14:31

were. I love. The description

14:33

of the library and I think like again. We're

14:35

talking about like book people reading about bogus

14:37

books. I think all of us to be

14:39

like I would love to be an echo

14:41

The Library on a stormy day you know

14:43

with your like cozy sweater and your snacks

14:45

and and reading great books I think there's

14:47

a slight coziness and like nostalgia as an

14:50

adult reader reading this what I thought we

14:52

just. Had. So many pluses for it

14:54

because of the hundred. Like stormy setting

14:56

as Deathly made me think that there's something

14:58

ominous on the way which again could be

15:00

just me or reader expectation. It could be

15:02

subverted. Maybe it's not. but I did think

15:04

as I said that there was something kind

15:06

of hovering in the room at some point

15:08

which I thought was interesting. I think there

15:10

was a lot of description of the setting

15:12

and as I said while I really loved

15:14

it it made for a very like stationary

15:17

experience and I talk a lot of on

15:19

the podcast about like how I really like

15:21

opening pages where the some sort of movement

15:23

and the fact that our protagonists is just

15:25

sitting down. And not doing anything and it's like

15:27

a librarian that approaches for it made for a

15:29

pretty stationary and stagnant experience. I definitely think going

15:31

on. I made some notes year which said vessel

15:34

be able to see about like what I would.

15:36

kind of what I don't think we need and

15:38

there's some instances where like, oh, this paragraph. The

15:40

only information we need to know is that she's

15:43

eleven and like the rest of it can probably

15:45

go some things like that It definitely needs know

15:47

that her mother work for the library, that sort

15:49

of thing, but I feel like this was a

15:52

long five pages to be like this with us

15:54

to harm she's in the library. her mother

15:56

works of the library something ominous is on

15:58

the way i felt like as a character.

16:00

I thought she was interesting. I thought she

16:02

kind of lacked a bit of self-awareness, which made

16:05

me feel like she was younger than 11. So

16:07

I was like, oh, I don't know. Maybe that

16:09

was just me and in my take on that. I

16:11

don't know. I didn't know if her personality and the

16:13

way she was acting in the age was necessarily all

16:15

lining up for me. I also felt like because this

16:18

novel is only going to be 47,000 words

16:20

that we kind of have to get to the

16:23

inciting incident relatively early in the book, which how

16:25

quick are we going to get there? I don't

16:27

know. This was definitely just a lot of setup

16:29

for me. So while I liked it, it felt

16:31

a little bit stationary and definitely felt like a

16:33

lot of setup, even though it was very atmosphere.

16:36

Alicia, what did you think? I agree. I

16:38

thought the atmosphere was very well done.

16:40

I imagined myself and my cozy sweater

16:42

with the rain all the exact same,

16:45

but I agreed that I thought that

16:47

there was some repetition and redundancy and

16:49

the pacing was a little slow because

16:51

we spent so much time on describing

16:54

the library, which I think most people

16:56

will have that kind of memory

16:58

or that feeling or present day knowledge

17:00

of what a library is like for

17:02

them, especially book lovers. So I don't

17:04

know that it's absolutely needed as much

17:06

beyond the initial setup. So I agreed

17:09

with that. There was also for me,

17:12

some issues in terms of building anticipation,

17:14

which I think kind of contributed to

17:16

the pacing issue that we were just

17:18

talking about. And that is that we're

17:21

introduced to Lydia. We see her, then

17:23

we see these like smoky tendrils coming

17:25

in and then they disappear. And then

17:27

we go back to Lydia and then

17:30

tendrils come back in and then they

17:32

disappear again. And so there's a lot

17:34

of like moments of like, you think

17:36

something's building to nothing that I thought

17:39

really could be reworked. So

17:41

we get our introduction and then we get

17:43

the smoky tendrils when we're ready for action

17:45

for those smoky tendrils to result in something,

17:47

which I think would help speed it along.

17:50

I also agree with

17:52

Carly's note that she felt younger

17:54

than 11. There was a moment

17:56

within the pages where she is

18:00

pretending that the library staff or pirates on

18:02

the ship that she's working and that had

18:04

a lot of fun. That was kind of

18:06

the most energetic part of the sample and

18:08

I really liked it, but it did make

18:10

her feel a little younger. It reminded me

18:12

of like an eight-year-old niece, more than an

18:14

11-year-old. And so I thought

18:16

that perhaps that, along with some

18:18

word choices that I think felt more

18:20

mature as well for a middle grade

18:23

audience, could potentially be rectified during revisions.

18:26

But generally I thought it was really cute and charming

18:28

and I would love to read a book set in

18:30

the library during a storm. I also thought

18:32

that they did a good job of

18:34

giving little nuggets of background

18:36

about Lydia, about the mother,

18:39

about the fact that her parents were divorced, although

18:41

that was one of the phrases that kind of

18:43

caught me as like maybe not phrased for a

18:45

middle grade audience. I believe it said something about

18:47

like the end of their marriage, which is probably

18:49

not how I'd say it for an eight

18:51

to 11-year-old reader. So those were just some of

18:53

the kind of things that latched on, but I

18:56

thought that they did a good job of at

18:58

least introducing that element so we understood why she

19:00

felt lonely pretty early on in

19:02

the story. CC, do you want to tell

19:04

us your take? I really liked all of

19:06

these comments. You know, I'll say that these

19:08

pages were very, very well written. I always

19:10

noticed writing on a line level with the

19:12

degree of obsession and there were just a

19:15

lot of really well-written, delightful, adorable lines. I

19:17

kept highlighting them and saying, oh, I love

19:19

this. This is so smart. The main note

19:21

for me really is the pacing. So really,

19:23

I'm disagreeing. I do think that you can

19:25

compress everything that's in these five pages into

19:27

a page and a half. And I also

19:29

think that you're missing an opportunity when it

19:31

comes to her family dynamics. So, for example,

19:33

when Bernice asked her, well, it's Friday evening,

19:35

I thought the two of you might be

19:37

going to dinner or maybe to a movie.

19:40

We're in her head, right? We're in Lydia's

19:42

head. And Lydia just says, seriously, mom wouldn't

19:44

even know how. Lydia answered, keeping

19:46

her voice low. I think that's an opportunity for

19:48

a curiosity seed. Maybe she could think to herself

19:50

at least not for the past three years and

19:52

then we'd wonder, oh, what happened three years ago?

19:54

And later on, when we find out that the

19:56

divorce was three years ago, we would put the

19:59

piece at the pot. puzzle together. I just

20:01

think it's really important to make sure to like

20:03

plant these little seeds so that

20:05

when the reader a page later, three pages

20:08

later, a chapter later, you know, 50 pages

20:10

later, it doesn't matter, learn something

20:12

that will make sense of the curiosity seed

20:14

that came before, their brain will feel rewarded.

20:16

And that's just really important to keep the

20:18

reader turning the pages. So I just wanted

20:20

to know more. I wanted to know more

20:22

about how she feels about breaking the rules,

20:24

for example, she's snacking at the library, right?

20:26

Does she feel adventurous doing it? Does she

20:29

feel mischievous? Does she feel I don't know,

20:31

I just wanted to know more about her personality with

20:33

the I guess, a degree of depth and layers that

20:35

I thought was missing. And there's enough nuts and bolts

20:37

here to make it work if you just add the

20:39

layers. So I thought you did a really good job

20:42

overall. All right, and now we will switch gears

20:44

to our next query letter. Dear CC,

20:46

I am submitting to you because of

20:49

your interest in flawed heroines, dysfunctional families

20:51

and atmospheric psychological drama. I cannot continue

20:53

without a huge thank you to the

20:55

entire shit team for the work you

20:57

all do in helping authors to reach

21:00

their publishing dreams. I've learned

21:02

more from this podcast than almost any

21:04

other class on the crop. I

21:07

am seeking representation for my novel, The

21:09

Hawk Screams, Loudest from the Sky, a

21:11

work of literary fiction complete at 84,000

21:13

words. This novel is a multi

21:17

POV narrative, combining the complexities

21:19

of tense familial relationships with

21:21

the abuse perpetrated by white

21:23

men in positions of religious

21:25

authority, similar to Crossroads by

21:27

Jonathan Franzen, and God Spare

21:30

the Girls by Kelsey McKinney,

21:32

though set against the harsh

21:34

beauty of the Namibian desert.

21:36

28 year old Eunice Mason is

21:38

pregnant with her second child when her

21:40

abusive husband John disrupts their lives and

21:43

moves them to Namibia to be missionaries,

21:46

isolated and desperate for connection with no money

21:48

or means to leave John. Maybe she could

21:50

think to herself at least not for the

21:52

past three years. And then we'd wonder, Oh,

21:54

what happened three years ago? And later on,

21:56

when we find out that the divorce was

21:58

three years ago, we would put the

22:00

piece of the puzzle together. I just

22:02

think it's really important to make sure to like

22:04

plant these little seeds so that

22:06

when the reader a page later, three pages

22:08

later, a chapter later, you know, 50 pages

22:11

later, it doesn't matter, learn something

22:13

that will make sense of the curiosity seed

22:15

that came before, their brain will feel rewarded

22:17

and that's just really important to keep the

22:19

reader turning the pages. So I, I just

22:21

want to know more. I wanted to know

22:23

more about how she feels about breaking the

22:25

rules. For example, she's snacking at the library,

22:27

right? Does she feel adventurous doing it? Does

22:29

she feel mischievous? Does she feel, I don't know.

22:31

I just wanted to know more about her personality

22:33

with the, I guess, a degree of depth and

22:36

layers that I thought was missing and there's enough

22:38

notes and bolts here to make it work if

22:40

you just add the layers. So I thought you

22:42

did a really good job overall. All right. And

22:44

now we will switch gears to our next query

22:46

letter. Dear Cece, I am submitting

22:48

to you because of your interest in

22:50

flawed heroines, dysfunctional families and atmospheric psychological

22:53

drama. I cannot continue without a huge

22:55

thank you to the entire SHIT team

22:57

for the work you all do in

22:59

helping authors to reach their publishing dreams.

23:02

I've learned more from this podcast than

23:04

almost any other class on the craft.

23:07

I am seeking representation for my novel,

23:09

The Hawk Screams Loudest from the Sky,

23:12

a work of literary fiction complete at

23:14

84,000 words. This

23:17

novel is a multi-POV narrative,

23:19

combining the complexities of tense,

23:21

familial relationships with the abuse

23:23

perpetrated by white men in

23:25

positions of religious authority, similar

23:27

to Crossroads by Jonathan Franzen

23:29

and God Spare the Girls

23:31

by Kelsey McKinney, though set

23:34

against the harsh beauty of

23:36

the Namibian desert. 28

23:38

year old Eunice Mason is pregnant with her

23:40

second child when her abusive husband, John,

23:42

disrupts their lives and moves them to

23:45

Namibia to be missionaries, isolated

23:47

and desperate for connection with no

23:49

money or means to family. When

23:52

John is born, Eunice is drawn to the

23:54

pregnant Ezra Nadara and her husband, George. When

23:57

Eunice learns that John has been using the

23:59

mission field. as a cover for

24:01

his involvement with a mysterious company

24:03

intent on drilling for crude oil

24:06

that's been discovered under the Kalahari

24:08

Desert. The decision to help spread

24:10

awareness is an easy one, despite

24:12

the threat to her personally. John's

24:15

actions and those of the oil

24:17

company will render hundreds of thousands

24:19

of indigenous people homeless and financially

24:21

disenfranchised. Contamination of the water source

24:24

will also drive away threatened species.

24:26

But Ezra's daughter misinterprets an innocent

24:28

interaction between Eunice and George and

24:30

tells John, unwittingly setting in motion, a

24:32

series of events that cannot be stopped.

24:35

Now everything is on the line. If

24:37

Eunice stays in Africa with John and

24:39

under his subjugation, she keeps her children.

24:41

But if she continues to fight to

24:43

regain her voice and newfound independence, she

24:46

potentially could lose it all. Not only

24:48

the freedom she's always dreamed of, but

24:50

her children as well. Inspired

24:52

by recent current events, it is

24:54

a story about using religion as

24:56

a cover for corporate greed and

24:58

the fight against colonization and climate

25:00

change. To note, although the main character

25:02

is a missionary, this is not a

25:04

religious book. I live in Seattle, Washington

25:07

with my husband and two young daughters

25:09

where I spend my days writing and

25:11

my nights trying, mostly unsuccessful, to get

25:13

my children to sleep. In college, I

25:15

majored in literature and minored in creative

25:17

writing. In my spare time, I take

25:19

classes on the craft of writing and

25:21

participate in two skilled critique groups. Thank

25:23

you for considering my query. I have enclosed

25:26

the first pages for submission per your guidelines,

25:28

and I'm gratified to share them with you.

25:31

May I send you the complete manuscript? Sincerely,

25:33

Carrie Lind. Thank you, Cece. Can you tell

25:35

us how long the pitch was and what

25:37

you thought of it? The author included the

25:39

word count, so thank you so much. This

25:41

is 420 words long. I'll

25:45

first start with a minor thing. There's a note

25:47

that says, although the main character is a missionary,

25:49

this is not a religious book, I think you

25:51

can delete that. My personal take is that your

25:53

comps are telling us what kind of book it

25:56

is, so I don't think that you

25:58

need to over-explain. It wouldn't bother me. seeing this,

26:00

so if you've sent this out already and

26:02

this comment is making you nervous, don't. I

26:04

just don't think you need it. Let's talk

26:06

about the plot. By the time I reached

26:08

the line, unwittingly setting in motion a series

26:10

of events that cannot be stopped, I thought

26:12

to myself, hmm, we're getting into vague territory.

26:15

And then all the lines after that

26:17

continued to be vague territory. And

26:19

this did not happen from the beginning, right? Like

26:22

from the beginning, I am getting lots of specifics.

26:24

We know that Eunice is in an abusive marriage.

26:26

We know that she feels alone in this new

26:28

country. We know that

26:30

she makes friends with Ezra. We

26:33

learn that she finds

26:35

out about Jon's corrupt, ulterior

26:37

motives. We learn that

26:39

her daughter accidentally makes life complicated

26:41

for her by sharing a moment

26:43

she had with George. But

26:46

then after that, we don't know anything else.

26:48

And so here's what was going through my mind,

26:50

okay? Is this the story of

26:52

a protagonist who has to

26:54

convince her husband, she loves him, to

26:57

buy time for, I don't know, a

26:59

party in which there will be media

27:01

then, and then she's planning on exposing him at the

27:03

party. Or is this the story

27:05

of a protagonist who's going to run with

27:07

her child, I mean, also the child in

27:09

her belly, to the American embassy? And halfway

27:12

there, she realizes she can't because her husband

27:14

has spread rumors that she's unwell and no

27:16

one will believe her. I don't know. Obviously,

27:19

none of these is the case because there's no way

27:21

I guessed your book. But my point

27:23

is, all that you've told me seems to be set

27:25

up. I'm wondering, the

27:27

major dramatic question, the climax, that

27:29

big moment, what exactly is going

27:32

to happen there? What plot wise

27:34

is going to happen? Because you're

27:36

telling me what's happening in her

27:38

interiority, things like her newfound independence,

27:40

her voice, the freedom she's dreamed

27:43

of, I need more specifics. Is

27:46

this just a matter of her having to get

27:48

to an embassy? Or is it more complicated than

27:50

that? I just really wanted more specific information on

27:52

the plot because that to me is really essential

27:54

for curiosity. And yeah, I think it's

27:56

a fun concept and I'll have a lot to see on

27:58

the pages. But for now, that's... That's it for

28:00

me. Alicia, what did you think? Yeah,

28:03

I think that the setup started off

28:05

very specific. As you noted, the comps

28:07

I felt did a really good job

28:09

of setting up where this

28:11

would fit on the bookshelf. And to that

28:14

point, I also made a note that you

28:16

could cut the line about not being a

28:18

religious novel because I thought that that was

28:20

very clearly established with the context clues that

28:23

were provided. So I didn't think that that was

28:25

necessary. I could free up some more

28:27

word count for you to expand on the things that

28:29

we do really need to know, which

28:31

are what the stakes are in this

28:34

book for Eunice and for everyone else.

28:36

I think one of the questions I

28:38

had immediately was related

28:40

to the multi-POV narrative

28:42

portion and whose story

28:44

this actually is. Because

28:46

we're only told really

28:48

about Eunice and her

28:51

POV in the pitch letter. So

28:53

I was curious immediately, who are the other

28:55

POVs? Why is Eunice the one being focused

28:57

on here? Who else has a stake in

29:00

this story? Obviously, the people of Namibia, which

29:02

we learned with the oil, but whose perspective

29:04

is being told here? Why are those perspectives

29:07

being told? And what are the stakes for

29:09

all of the people who were going to

29:11

be introduced to as central characters? And I'm

29:13

not sure that that was super clear to

29:16

me from the pitch. So that

29:18

was one of the questions that I had. I

29:20

also agree that when we

29:22

got down to the secret

29:25

being revealed, things got very

29:27

vague. Everything is on the

29:29

line. Like, well, what is everything? What is on

29:31

the line? Why does she think that her children

29:33

are going to be taken away from her if

29:35

she were to expose this? There are a lot

29:38

of questions. And I don't think you have to

29:40

answer all of those questions in a pitch letter.

29:43

But I think that you want to set

29:45

the reader up to have a good grasp

29:47

of what's at stake. And I think that

29:49

it could be multiple things here for multiple

29:51

people. And I'm not entirely sure who the focus

29:53

is here or

29:55

why Eunice is the one telling this

29:58

story, especially considering the setting. So

30:00

I think that having that context would be

30:02

helpful to me as an editor to know

30:04

if this is the kind of book that

30:06

I want to take on. I also thought

30:08

that the author bio did a good job

30:11

of including relevant information about literature and creative

30:13

writing, and I am involved in these writing

30:15

groups. But I would have liked to see

30:17

just a little more personality there, I think

30:19

that's kind of like our one place to

30:21

kind of get a feel for who the

30:24

author is beyond just a feel for what

30:26

the story is. And I really do, as

30:28

I said in the earlier query, I think

30:30

that that can be really useful for an agent

30:32

or an editor to have that

30:34

kind of feeling of connection because we are

30:36

going to be signing on to work with

30:38

authors for a very long time, hopefully. And

30:41

so I think showing a little bit of

30:43

personality, a little bit of who you are

30:45

in the query letter is only a good

30:47

thing. Carly, what did you think of the

30:49

query letter? All right, I won't go over

30:51

all the other great notes. So I'll focus on a

30:53

couple things that haven't been touched on yet, which is

30:55

I don't think it

30:57

was very clear whether this was contemporary or

30:59

historical. I really would have I don't

31:01

know if I need we need like a I don't know, a

31:04

timestamp or something like that somewhere in that

31:06

you could just weave it in pretty simply,

31:08

right? Like this is this novel is multi

31:10

POV contemporary narrative, or you know what I

31:12

mean? Like there's just throwing in the word

31:14

contemporary somewhere. I didn't know even the names

31:16

I was like, Oh, are those like Eunice

31:18

like that could be you know, a name

31:20

from the 1800s 1900s, or it

31:23

could be contemporary, right? So I would have

31:25

loved to know, you know, the timeframe. And

31:27

the other thing is in terms of

31:29

the moving them, right? So it

31:31

says, abusive husband, john disrupts their lives, move

31:33

them to Namibia to be missionaries, we don't

31:35

know where from unlike from South Africa, from

31:37

America, from Europe, you know what I mean?

31:40

Like, I think that context matters in terms of

31:42

like, the experience, because again, we're going on this

31:44

journey with this character. So I want to know

31:46

what her background is. So I know how

31:49

fish out of water is she going to be moving,

31:51

that would have been useful information to me.

31:54

But one of the things I was really

31:56

drawn to about this project is for a

31:58

literary novel, this has incredibly high

32:00

stakes. So the pairing of a potentially literary

32:02

novel, meaning like my expectations are really high

32:05

for the quality of writing that's going to

32:07

kind of emerge here, and for it to

32:09

have like very like local on the ground

32:11

stakes as well as these like global stakes

32:13

like character stakes. I don't know, there's just

32:15

so many levels here where I have pretty

32:17

high expectations after reading a pitch like this

32:20

to think hopefully that it will kind of,

32:22

you know, live up to my expectations in

32:24

terms of what's to come. I

32:26

think a couple times in the query letter things sounded

32:28

a little bit synopsis-y to me. Even

32:30

the line like now everything is on the line.

32:32

I don't know somehow that felt like a little

32:35

bit synopsis-like to me. I don't know. So I

32:37

really got the sense that you were trying to

32:39

up the stakes, amp up the stakes, underscore the

32:41

stakes, which was great, but that is part of

32:43

the vague stuff, right? Like what does on the

32:45

line mean even? Right? Like it's just a way

32:47

of saying, you know, is somebody like in physical

32:49

danger, emotional danger? Like what is

32:52

on the line, right? Everything is on the line

32:54

like her physical life or, you know, what is

32:56

it, right? Her child's life? Like these are all

32:58

things that matter. And the last thing I just

33:00

want to touch on was really just like

33:02

experience, right? Like to me, writing

33:04

this story requires incredible specificity of like

33:06

understanding Namibia and the world and just

33:08

so much. I just really was curious.

33:10

I was kind of hoping in the

33:13

author bio paragraph I was going to

33:15

understand a little bit more. It seems

33:17

like it was inspired by current events,

33:19

which again, that's a jumping off point

33:21

for a lot of novels, something

33:23

like written from the headlines, reading the news. I

33:25

think agents are going to ask about this. So

33:27

I don't know if this is something that you

33:29

want to address in the query letter that maybe

33:31

you have been there or, you know, you have a personal

33:33

connection to the story. And if you don't just

33:35

make it clear, maybe I don't

33:38

know, somehow that it is really just based

33:40

on a news headline. I don't know

33:42

how you want to do that again, because I don't know if you

33:44

do have a connection to the story. So I'll just leave that there.

33:46

I'll just chime in that I also had

33:48

flagged that in the query letter wondering what

33:51

inspired the story. I saw the current events

33:53

headline. I thought that could be moved up

33:55

as well earlier in the description. I think

33:57

that that's something that's interesting.

34:00

to probably agents and editors that it is inspired

34:02

by a true story that can be a media

34:04

or PR hook. But I also had the question

34:06

you know around what kind of personal experience you

34:09

had with this area and or what

34:11

kind of sensitivity reads might have been employed

34:13

in writing it, what kind of research was

34:15

employed in writing it, just because I do

34:17

think that making sure that we have authentic

34:19

representation is really important. So those were also

34:22

questions that I would have liked to see

34:24

potentially addressed but are also questions that can

34:26

come up later in the process. So again

34:28

I don't expect everything to be in the

34:30

pitch letter but I agree with Carly that

34:32

that is something that I think editors and

34:34

agents would like visibility for. Awesome

34:37

thanks for summarizing that so well Alicia. CZ

34:40

why don't you summarize the pages for us and let us

34:42

know what you thought. So we begin

34:44

with a timestamp, time and location

34:46

stamp, Bellingham Washington September 2004. The

34:50

protagonist is talking to her mom and

34:52

essentially asking for her mom's blessing for

34:55

her to stay behind and not go

34:57

with her husband and she mentions that

34:59

she's pregnant and her

35:01

mom does not understand her mom thinks

35:03

she has to go for many reasons

35:05

but the main reason because she

35:08

is bound to her husband she made a

35:10

promise before God and she says I don't

35:12

want to go and her mom says

35:14

he needs you and so we get

35:16

a little bit on how her family

35:18

her family of origin doesn't understand and

35:21

then eventually they go to the airport

35:23

it is the Vancouver Airport and at

35:26

the gate the flight attendant eyes her

35:28

belly and her husband who lights up

35:30

when he sees new women before of

35:32

him says something to make

35:34

the flight attendant laugh and

35:36

you know she lets them board the plane

35:38

which I took to mean she's

35:40

way too pregnant to be flying but the flight

35:42

attendant made it at exception. The

35:45

flight is really summarized we don't really

35:47

get anything while they're inside the plane

35:49

we just have a line break and

35:51

then they're at the airport the airport

35:53

in in Namibia and she is basically

35:55

taking in the settings and pretty soon

35:57

a van arrives with a driver who

35:59

introduces himself as George

36:01

and they're in the car and

36:03

they're headed to their destination and

36:05

she's asking questions like will we see

36:08

wild animals as the city disappears behind

36:10

them. So that is what happens. In

36:12

terms of my take, okay, I

36:15

almost feel like I read like this

36:17

is so interesting to me because I

36:20

loved the authorial voice, right? Like I

36:22

thought this was very voicey. I thought

36:24

the lines were very well written and

36:26

very interesting and clearly there's a level

36:29

of emotional depth here that I mean

36:31

it was just so well done. I

36:33

would venture a guess and say that

36:35

the author just drew from personal experience

36:37

from the depths of her own emotionality

36:39

to to really give us a lot

36:42

in terms of this protagonist's feelings and

36:44

I really appreciate that because emotion is

36:47

really important. What to me was missing

36:49

were a few things, some of them

36:51

easy fixes. So one of them, for

36:53

example, the query letter mentions that he's

36:55

abusive, right? Does her mom know that?

36:58

Is it the kind of abuse where

37:00

her mom would think it's not abuse

37:02

because of a generational situation because of

37:04

ignorance in the proper sense of the

37:07

word or does her mom

37:09

not know? Is she keeping information, factual information

37:11

from her mom? I think that's one of

37:13

the questions I had and it's something that

37:15

I really wanted to know because it would

37:17

change the dynamics. It would affect how her

37:19

mom's advice lands for me. Another

37:21

thing I really wanted to know is

37:24

when she arrives in Namibia and again it

37:26

might be a me problem, I've never been,

37:28

but I didn't get the sense that this

37:30

was someone arriving in a new country at

37:32

all. Like there were no, usually when you

37:34

arrive in a new entirely new continent, not

37:36

just new country, right? Like you're over

37:39

flooded with all these different sensorial experiences and

37:41

I didn't get that. And like they're in

37:43

the car, for example, and we're barely getting

37:46

anything on what she's seeing out the window,

37:48

which to me would be a huge thing.

37:50

So I don't know, I didn't see too

37:53

much on that and I really wanted to. I

37:55

felt that, you know, for a story set in

37:57

a different continent from the one where the protests

38:00

is from, a story that is so much

38:02

about arriving at a new place. My expectations

38:04

were higher when it comes to

38:06

that. And I also wanted to know when

38:08

she was talking to, for example, George and

38:10

asking about the animals, was she

38:12

saying that with dread or with excitement? Like

38:14

did she want to see wild animals? Was

38:17

she dreading seeing wild animals? I wanted to

38:19

know these small things whenever she was talking

38:21

because I wanted to get to know her

38:23

better. I feel like everything that's left unsaid

38:26

tells us a lot about protagonists. Oh, and

38:28

also another thing. I

38:30

have circulation issues, right? So even

38:32

though I have never flown

38:34

well pregnant, because that's never been my life

38:36

situation, even though I'm not pregnant, when I

38:39

fly, my feet are ginormous. Were her feet

38:41

not swollen? I also miss things

38:43

like that, you know? Like she's on a plane.

38:45

Like is it her first time on a plane?

38:47

Is it her first time on a plane pregnant?

38:49

Like what happened to her body? Again, it's just

38:51

about these little details. They make the situation feel

38:53

very real to the reader. And I wasn't getting

38:55

that. And so I don't know if this is

38:57

fair to say, but to the author, it reads

39:00

like you do not have lived experience with

39:02

what you are writing. And so ask

39:04

yourself what you can do to

39:07

include that life experience there to

39:09

convey more senses to the reader.

39:12

Yeah, so I would agree that on

39:14

a line level, I think she's a

39:16

really talented writer, I felt especially in

39:19

the opening pages, a sense

39:21

of emotional connection to her and

39:23

her hesitance to leave with her

39:25

husband to go to Namibia. So

39:27

I felt that very viscerally, I

39:30

thought she did a good job

39:32

of kind of increasing that internal

39:34

tension as we got closer and

39:36

closer through the conversation with her

39:38

mother. And I actually thought

39:40

that she did a good job of

39:43

layering in subtle clues to that relationship.

39:45

So I feel like I got the

39:48

sense from the pages that her mother

39:50

didn't want her to go either, but

39:52

felt she didn't have a choice.

39:54

We also learned that her father is

39:57

in the church through a very subtle

39:59

clue. about the house that they

40:01

live in being part of the clergy. So

40:03

I think that she did a good job

40:05

of making those little hints kind of

40:08

subtle and we can kind of see, or I

40:10

could, I might be reading into it too

40:12

much, but I got the sense that her mother

40:14

had lived this life of duty

40:16

to a man involved with the church and

40:18

now is kind of foisting that upon her

40:20

daughter, even though I think she

40:23

does understand some of the

40:25

troubles that might come along with that. And I think

40:27

we also got that clue from her relationship with her

40:29

sister and the fact that her

40:31

sister was really mad at her and not even willing

40:33

to say goodbye. So I think there was some kind

40:36

of level of the family knowing that there was

40:38

something not right in their relationship. And

40:40

so I think that added to the

40:42

kind of feeling of reluctance, but I

40:44

do think that clues are pretty subtle

40:46

and we know from the pitch that

40:48

her husband's abusive, but I don't know

40:51

if we've been given that on the

40:53

pages early enough to understand some of

40:55

the other emotions that we're being told

40:57

she feels. So we're being told

40:59

she feels very fragile, that she feels breakable,

41:02

that she feels like she's been molded into

41:04

something that's not herself, but I feel like

41:06

I'm being told those things rather than

41:08

shown those things. And so that's

41:11

where once we kind of got on the

41:13

plane, I feel like we lost some of

41:15

that internal connection because we didn't have the

41:17

context to back it up. I also agreed

41:20

in terms of sensory details. I feel like

41:22

we had a really good understanding of Seattle.

41:24

They talked about the grass being burnt down

41:26

in August having lived in Seattle, I can

41:28

confirm that the grass is like that and

41:30

the roses still kind of thriving. Like I

41:32

feel like there were a lot of visual

41:35

examples of Seattle and I didn't get that

41:37

sense when she got off the plane. We

41:39

know that it was hot and that there were a

41:41

lot of noises that she couldn't quite comprehend, but that's

41:43

about it. And I agree that like in a foreign

41:45

country for the first time

41:47

that you're going there, you're looking at

41:49

the vegetation, you're looking at the clothing

41:52

choices, you're listening to the sounds, what

41:54

music is playing, what are you sensing

41:56

aside from heat? And language that isn't

41:58

really described in it. any kind of way.

42:01

So that was something that I also agreed felt

42:03

missing and I wasn't sure if the author had

42:05

actually been to the place that was being written

42:07

about based on that intro. Again it's the first

42:10

five pages that could certainly come out but I

42:12

would recommend bringing it up sooner if that's the

42:14

case. Same note with like the animals. I also

42:17

that there was some tension being introduced

42:19

between her and George. There was a

42:21

lot of eye connection. It almost set

42:24

up that there was going to be

42:26

some kind of physical attraction between the

42:28

two but never quite going there and are

42:31

told that she feels shame over making this eye contact

42:33

and I don't know if that's because

42:35

of the abuse and not being able to make

42:37

eye contact with the man. I don't know if

42:39

that's because she's feeling this early shred of attraction

42:42

and that's the shame she's feeling. I was a

42:44

little unclear about like where that

42:46

feeling was stemming from so it all kind

42:48

of goes back to me not feeling like

42:50

I have enough context to have an emotional

42:52

connection with her but I'm being put into

42:54

a situation where I feel like I'm being

42:56

told I'm supposed to have this really intense

42:58

emotional connection with her. So I think that

43:00

there's just a bit of a gap there and

43:02

a little work to do to kind of bridge

43:04

the two but I thought that again on the

43:06

line level I thought the writing was quite well

43:08

done and I think that that's one of the

43:10

you know kind of first hurdles to get over

43:12

is having that kind of sense of voice that

43:14

you see commented on. I agree that there is

43:16

a good voice there and there's work

43:19

to build upon here. All right so

43:21

thank you both for those very thoughtful

43:23

ideas. I'm gonna try to try to add

43:25

to it and chime in a little bit

43:27

here. You know I think I was feeling

43:29

I like the second

43:31

half of the sample more than the first

43:33

half even though the first half felt a

43:35

bit more like I don't know a little

43:38

bit more real and I think it's just because

43:40

of the specificity that everybody is pointing out. I

43:43

think for me this is the thing about literary

43:45

fiction is some people are gonna like a

43:47

certain style other editors are gonna like it this way

43:49

some agents are gonna like it this way and for me

43:52

it felt very staccato. It felt

43:54

very distant and my personal

43:56

taste in terms of the type of literary

43:58

fiction drawn to, I had

44:01

a really hard time connecting with the

44:03

first half here. Because I think I

44:05

was just caught up in how, like, I use

44:07

the word choppy, just meaning like short sentences, lots

44:09

of punctuation. It was tricky for me to kind

44:12

of get into that first page. I was really

44:14

unpacking like the stylistic choices and the structure choices

44:16

where that really took me out of the moment

44:18

of like being on the page here. That

44:20

said, I did like the second half better. I

44:23

think it's just because I liked the way that

44:25

it just seemed like the author just settled into

44:27

the pages a bit more. We just had longer

44:29

sentences and there was just a bit more time

44:31

to kind of breathe into the actual writing.

44:34

But ultimately, I completely agree with

44:36

what you guys have said, which is what was

44:39

she smelling? What was she seeing? You know, all of

44:41

the like the food, like was she hungry when she

44:43

got off the plane as she needed to eat? If

44:45

she's as pregnant as we think she is, she's

44:47

probably starving. And she's probably thinking like, what do

44:49

I eat? And I don't know. And you know,

44:52

all of these questions. I think

44:54

really the only the kind of, you know,

44:56

quote unquote, excuse I made up in my

44:58

mind for potentially these actions is that she's

45:00

really tired, that she had a child on

45:02

her lap for this entire flight. She's

45:05

massively pregnant. Like she just

45:07

must be so tired, like bone weary, tired.

45:09

And if you are hot and you are

45:11

nine months pregnant, and like and your child

45:13

slept on you for the past eight hours,

45:15

or however long your flight was much probably

45:17

way longer than that if it was a

45:19

direct flight, I just can't imagine the position

45:21

that she's in. So if this was a

45:23

stylistic choice to say like, this character is

45:25

used to suppressing her emotions because of this

45:28

abusive relationship, I just wanted to see a

45:30

bit more of that and just kind of

45:32

get that on the page. It was just

45:34

hugely lacking to me. So again, I thought

45:36

like maybe she's really tired. Maybe this character

45:38

can't plug in right now to the emotionality that

45:40

we need as a reader because like she's so

45:42

tired and she can't turn on her brain in

45:45

that sense. Like that was kind of my only,

45:47

I don't know, my only explanation for it. That

45:50

said, she was really able to dial into

45:52

George, which I thought was really interesting

45:54

because if she's completely tired,

45:56

completely burned out, you know, so overwhelmed. with

45:58

this experience, she's really able to dial into

46:01

George, right? So then I'm like, oh, it

46:03

clearly this character is able to kind of

46:05

plug into something. And it's him. So again,

46:07

we need some self awareness to be like,

46:09

why is that that I am plugged into

46:12

George and I can't plug into the rest

46:14

of the situation? Is it because I'm numb

46:16

to whatever is happening in my family life?

46:18

So anyway, all this to say we're putting

46:20

a lot of pressure on these first five

46:22

pages to perform. And we know that and

46:25

there's obviously, you know, so much to cover.

46:27

And it's it seems very interesting. I'm just

46:29

like very curious about where this is going.

46:31

And again, what kind of experience this author

46:33

has with the subject matter, because clearly, we're

46:36

going to be going deep here. So that's

46:38

my notes. Thank you, everybody for tuning into

46:40

our show. Thank you so much to Alicia

46:42

Clancy for joining us. We really, really appreciate

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Steep That begins January Sixteenth. Let's start

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Shit About writing.com That's the shit about

50:59

Writing. Dot Com. Today's. Guest

51:01

is the author of the novel

51:03

To Knees, which was longlisted for

51:05

the inaugural Carol Shills Prize for

51:07

fiction, the memoir Death current occupant

51:09

winner of the Twinkie Eighteen Sent

51:11

To The Book Award, and longlisted

51:13

for the George Right Out Awards

51:15

Social Awareness in Literature and Braided

51:18

Skyn. her essays have appeared in

51:20

multiple Canadian and American publications. Previously

51:22

the managing editor at Room Magazines

51:24

and the director of the Drawing

51:26

Room Festival in Vancouver, she has

51:28

also worked as a poetry professor.

51:30

At the University of Toronto and

51:33

at the University of British Columbia

51:35

and as a literary agent at

51:37

the Transatlantic Agency she's now funded

51:39

her own lives. Really studio, breathing

51:42

space, creative through which is loan

51:44

stay forever. Rights have club and

51:46

Membership for Rights is focused on

51:49

creates of sustainability that thrive Coaching

51:51

program and the Rise Author Care

51:53

Program at my pleasure to Welcome

51:55

to Lean Night Saline welcome to

51:58

the show. Yea than you so much. having

52:00

me. I'm really excited to be here.

52:02

I'm so excited to chat with you.

52:05

I became aware of your writing a

52:07

few years ago when my agent C.C.

52:09

Lira was like, you have got to

52:12

read Dear Current Occupants. And

52:14

when word of mouth, when my agent tells me

52:16

to read something, I damn well do. But you

52:18

know, why, Shaleen,

52:20

as they say in the

52:22

classics, holy shiznit, Batman, that

52:25

is one heck of a bio.

52:27

Now, we're always saying on the podcast, be

52:30

a good literary citizen. And honestly,

52:32

I can't think of anybody who

52:34

epitomizes that more than you. I

52:36

want to focus on each of

52:38

the initiatives you've launched through Breathing

52:40

Space Creative before we actually get

52:43

to talking about your book. So

52:45

can you start telling us about

52:47

the Forever Writers Club? Yes, the

52:49

Forever Writers Club is essentially a

52:51

community, a small community of writers

52:53

where we focus on some of

52:56

the things that we can't

52:58

seem to find in the mainstream literary world.

53:00

So we focus on mindset,

53:03

building boundaries, all the

53:05

things connected to the mental health side of

53:07

being a writer. And so yes, we look

53:09

at craft, but we kind of have that

53:11

on the back burner. And we really want

53:13

to focus on how do we take care

53:15

of ourselves when we're writing? How do we

53:18

deal with rejection? How do

53:20

we hold space for each other when

53:22

we're venturing out into that world of

53:24

publishing? How do we hold community then?

53:26

So we even talk about what we eat,

53:29

how we take care of our bodies. We go really

53:31

deep with that and we really just kind

53:33

of, I guess, appreciate this

53:36

holistic approach to writing. So the

53:38

Forever Writers Club for me started

53:40

from this desire to provide the

53:42

supports that I didn't feel like

53:44

I had as a writer. And I think when

53:47

you're a marginalized creator and you're thrust

53:49

out into this world, there's just so

53:51

much that people don't tell you. So

53:53

I really appreciate this podcast, especially because

53:56

there's so much that we don't know.

53:58

And we often have these. really

54:00

big expectations once our

54:02

books are out there. And so the club

54:04

is also meant to help you build out

54:06

realistic expectations of what it means to be

54:08

a writer, what it means to

54:11

potentially make a living as a writer

54:13

as well, and again bring folks down

54:15

to reality and help them make informed

54:17

decisions about their their writing practices. So

54:19

that's the Forever Writers Club in a

54:21

nutshell. I love all of that and

54:24

you know what on the podcast we

54:26

do our best to tell people these

54:28

things and manage expectations, but none of

54:30

us are marginalized authors and so we

54:32

can't speak from that experience

54:34

and I feel like marginalized

54:36

authors have so much more pressure

54:38

put on them because it's like they need

54:41

to speak for a whole group of people.

54:43

When they have success, you know,

54:45

everybody looks to them to speak for everybody

54:47

in that group and nobody does that with

54:50

white writers. Nobody's like, well you have to,

54:52

you know, stand up and speak for a

54:54

whole group of people. So can you speak

54:56

a bit about that as well? Yes, definitely.

54:58

I love this. I think there's an opportunity

55:01

as a community, as a writing community, to

55:03

also think about how can we remove a

55:05

lot of that pressure for marginalized writers and

55:07

this is something that I try to have

55:10

conversations about as well. You know, I think

55:12

it could be a wonderful thing to feel

55:14

like you've got a potential solution for a

55:16

community that is struggling with something, but that's

55:18

a lot of weight to carry to feel

55:21

like you are the only one. So

55:23

I think part of the solution here is

55:25

that we have to look at, we

55:28

have to get to the root of a

55:30

lot of these things. What does it mean

55:32

for you to be a writer? What does

55:34

that take from you and how can we

55:36

as a literary community assist in giving back

55:38

and filling that up? And this is going

55:40

to be unique for everyone and this is

55:42

where the Forever Writers Club really looks at

55:45

the individual writer. So again, who is

55:47

the storyteller? Who is this unique human

55:50

being and how can we support them?

55:52

So we ask a lot of deep

55:54

questions in terms of, you know, what

55:57

gives you energy and what takes

55:59

your energy? and we just keep following

56:01

that thread and we always unpack something

56:03

unexpected. Which I think is quite beautiful.

56:06

Sometimes we just think, oh we just

56:08

don't have enough time, we have full-time

56:10

jobs, we have kids to take care

56:12

of, all these different things. But when

56:15

we get down to the root, we

56:17

might find that that barrier is something

56:19

that we just didn't expect. And sometimes

56:21

it's connected to being a marginalized creator

56:24

and sometimes magically it isn't. And so

56:26

part of that, I think part of

56:28

the literary community really needs to understand

56:31

that when you're a marginalized creator, sometimes

56:33

you will have a problem that is

56:35

not tied to being a marginalized

56:38

creator. And that is really important to

56:40

acknowledge as well. So that's why looking at

56:42

the whole writer becomes so important because you

56:44

never know what you will unpack. So in

56:46

the club we actually have a lot of

56:49

live sessions. We even have a let it

56:51

go session which is really fun. For every

56:53

15 minutes on Friday I go

56:55

live with my community and

56:57

I just talk about something that I want to

56:59

let go of. And that really inspires people to

57:02

look at what they've been holding on to and

57:04

we always attach it to our creative project.

57:06

So if I picture myself letting go

57:08

of this belief, this idea, or this

57:10

thing, what would it look like for

57:12

my creative project? We're always always trying

57:15

to put those connections together. So it's

57:17

super fun but it's definitely deep heavy

57:19

work. But the club is also for

57:22

everyone. It's open for everyone. And so

57:24

I love just kind of seeing the types of

57:26

writers that are coming in. We have

57:28

folks who really want to work on publishing

57:30

and then folks who just want writing to

57:32

be a regular part of their everyday. No

57:35

desire to publish at all. And I love when these

57:37

two people are in the room. Oh,

57:39

it's funny. It's fascinating. The conversations

57:41

that come from that relationship, they're

57:43

beautiful. Yeah. And you know, I

57:45

just think of myself as a

57:47

creator. I think my biggest problem

57:50

is that I'm a huge people

57:52

pleaser and I really want

57:54

to do so much. But often doing

57:56

that is at the expense of my

57:59

own creative project. creative time and my

58:01

creative resources, which is why I'm now stressed

58:03

out of my mind trying to finish a

58:05

book that I should have finished months ago,

58:07

because I'm unable to say no to things

58:09

and I'm unable to put up boundaries, right?

58:11

So, you know, it's that constant push and

58:14

pull and for each person, it's different because

58:16

I know a lot of people who are

58:18

like, I have no problem saying no, I'm

58:20

defending my creative space here, it is when

58:22

I'm protecting it. But, you know, that's something

58:24

that for me is something that I know

58:26

I really have to work on and for

58:29

our listeners, for many of them, they're going

58:31

to have their own things that they need

58:33

to work on. So I love how you

58:35

come at it from all different angles and

58:37

for our listeners, if these are things, you

58:39

know, that you're struggling with, please look up

58:41

the Forever Writers Club and see if, you

58:44

know, this might be a space that you

58:46

might thrive in. Okay,

58:48

let's talk now about the Thrive

58:50

Coaching Program. What is that about?

58:52

Mm-hmm. Another initiative that oddly

58:55

enough started from the writing

58:57

of the book, Let It Go. So as

59:00

I was writing this book, I was

59:02

kind of forced to investigate myself and

59:04

all the sides of myself, the creative

59:06

side, the writer side, the coach side,

59:08

all these different things I really had

59:11

to look at. And what

59:13

I noticed was happening was that I

59:15

started to organically

59:17

drop off things that didn't serve

59:19

me anymore. So even like negative

59:22

habits, and we all have them, might

59:24

be smoking, it might be, you know, it

59:26

could be anything. But I noticed

59:28

that those things started to kind of raise

59:30

their hand a little bit as I was

59:32

writing this book. And I really kind of

59:34

thought about that and looked at it. And

59:36

what I realized was happening was that I

59:38

was evolving as a person. I was focusing

59:40

on this personal growth. And

59:43

from that, the letting go kind of

59:45

became a byproduct of the work I

59:48

was doing on myself. And that was

59:50

emotional for me to walk through. And

59:53

so I thought to myself, oh my goodness,

59:55

what if I built a coaching program that

59:57

kind of followed this same thread? Gonna

1:00:00

look at all these different aspects of

1:00:02

our lives. were going to interrogate them,

1:00:04

Were going to figure out what it

1:00:06

means. To work on ourselves and

1:00:08

see what happens. And so the. Coaching

1:00:11

program essentially is it follows my say

1:00:13

No with Love method which is a

1:00:15

seven step method, but it. Goes deep

1:00:17

into each one of those things. And

1:00:20

you have life coaching calls with

1:00:22

me we looked at again although

1:00:24

since I already talked about boundaries,

1:00:26

let him go for people pleasing

1:00:29

an just finding a way to

1:00:31

manager energy in a way that

1:00:33

feels right for you in that

1:00:35

moment. But I also teach folks

1:00:37

in that program how to revise

1:00:39

so something that works for you

1:00:42

in December, January, February. Might not

1:00:44

work for you in June and July. As

1:00:46

such the seasons change and as you grow

1:00:48

and evolve as a person how do you

1:00:50

go back and look at those tools and

1:00:53

revised on for in the Thrive program? We

1:00:55

look at that and we investigate it. it's

1:00:57

It's really fun just to see clients move

1:01:00

through that program and to look at where

1:01:02

they started and then said look at where

1:01:04

they are after the exit the program and

1:01:06

it is so powerful because we also focus

1:01:09

on tracking your growth so as things

1:01:11

kind of movement and as you grow and

1:01:13

evolve you look back and you're like. Oh

1:01:16

my goodness. Like. I just did

1:01:18

on of work so it allows

1:01:20

you to appreciate some. Of the non

1:01:22

tangible. I. Guess changes as well.

1:01:24

So I have the thrive coaching programmers.

1:01:26

I would say my heart and soul

1:01:28

very similar to the Forever Writers Club

1:01:30

accept that we don't. Focus solely on

1:01:33

writing the kind of zoom lens. Out

1:01:35

and so anyone can be a part

1:01:37

of the the Thrive Cause She program

1:01:39

if you want creative balance as the

1:01:41

spot for you as we get to

1:01:43

talking about the seasons as Saline has

1:01:45

discussed and in Politico has is structured

1:01:47

that book that before we get to

1:01:49

that the last thing tell us a

1:01:51

bit about the Rise of the Cave

1:01:53

program To Rise Author Care program was

1:01:55

actually a beta program that I built

1:01:57

specifically for authors and I since then

1:01:59

click. that down and

1:02:02

I've replaced it with a guided

1:02:04

journal for authors which is going to be

1:02:06

out in 2025. So that

1:02:08

journal itself is based on the program

1:02:10

but essentially same idea. We're gonna look

1:02:12

at the mindset stuff but we're gonna

1:02:14

focus solely on what it means to

1:02:17

write a book and then to have

1:02:19

it exist in the world. How do

1:02:21

you navigate events? How do you deal

1:02:23

with media promoting your book and at

1:02:25

the same time taking care of yourself

1:02:28

and highlighting your superpowers? So even doing

1:02:30

something like this, doing a podcast for

1:02:32

me is so energizing. I love doing

1:02:34

this. What if you have an

1:02:36

author who just the thought of this makes

1:02:38

them feel like, like I don't want to

1:02:40

do this. How can we build a

1:02:43

container for them to still be able to

1:02:45

promote their books in a healthy way that

1:02:47

aligns with who they are as a

1:02:50

person? And so that's what the author care

1:02:52

idea is all about. But all these things

1:02:54

are pretty much the same thing just dedicated

1:02:56

to a specific kind of

1:02:58

person and then looking at how deep

1:03:00

we actually go with these ideas. So

1:03:02

in the Forever Writers Club we go

1:03:04

deep but of course it's me, one

1:03:07

of me and a lot of other people. Whereas

1:03:09

the Thrive Coaching Program, me and one other

1:03:11

person. So really just depends on the situation

1:03:14

but all of these different offerings are linked.

1:03:16

Yeah and I love what you just said

1:03:18

there now because publishers will say

1:03:20

to you, do the social

1:03:22

media that you're comfortable with. We don't expect

1:03:25

you to be on everything but they do

1:03:27

expect you, if they've set up a podcast

1:03:29

interview they do expect you to do it.

1:03:31

And if they found an opportunity for an

1:03:33

essay they do expect you to do it.

1:03:36

And so it is difficult to say this

1:03:38

isn't my jam, this is not something that

1:03:40

I'm going to enjoy or necessarily

1:03:42

be good at or whatever and I'd

1:03:44

rather do it this way. So it's

1:03:46

also great that you're giving writers these

1:03:48

tools to learn how to advocate for

1:03:50

themselves, to still do the

1:03:53

job but just perhaps do it in

1:03:55

in a different way rather than having

1:03:57

to tick off every box and be

1:03:59

everything. to everyone, which I think

1:04:01

is why so many authors after launching

1:04:04

are so drained because they were like,

1:04:06

nobody warned me about this. I've thrown

1:04:08

myself into this. I've done everything I

1:04:10

can and it can be

1:04:12

really depleted. That's exactly it. You hit the

1:04:14

nail, you hit the nail on the head.

1:04:17

That's exactly what it is. And

1:04:19

part of it too is thinking you either

1:04:21

have to say no or you have to say

1:04:23

yes. What about the happy medium? What about

1:04:25

the same yes with conditions and

1:04:27

following up with a request and asking for

1:04:29

more information so you can make an informed

1:04:31

decision. Like I'm the kind of writer who,

1:04:33

if I'm going to an

1:04:35

in-person event, I want to know everything

1:04:37

about the venue because the lighting matters to

1:04:40

me. Like what is the dress code? I

1:04:42

just give me all the information so that

1:04:44

I can adequately prepare myself and

1:04:46

then feel like I can be my

1:04:48

whole self on stage versus showing up

1:04:50

as a version of myself that doesn't

1:04:53

feel good. And I've really been paying

1:04:55

attention to this with the last book

1:04:57

in this upcoming book. How can I

1:04:59

put myself out there and really promote

1:05:01

my books, but do so in a

1:05:03

way that really allows me to elevate

1:05:05

and highlight who I am and who

1:05:07

I'm becoming as a writer. So that's what I

1:05:09

think changed over the last couple of years for

1:05:11

me. Even I see my own growth, which is

1:05:14

weird, but that's what happens

1:05:16

when you really pay attention to who you

1:05:18

are and how you want to show up.

1:05:20

Yeah, I love all of that because

1:05:22

we create art and our art then becomes

1:05:24

commercialized. It becomes an object to be sold.

1:05:27

And in a way we become objects

1:05:29

to be sold, you know, like our public.

1:05:31

And so that's kind of how I move

1:05:33

in terms of my writing. But when I

1:05:36

decided to jump into being

1:05:38

a literary agent, that was a bold

1:05:40

move for me. And in my mind,

1:05:42

I was thinking to myself, how can

1:05:44

I put myself in a position to

1:05:47

really support authors and to work closely

1:05:49

with them? And that's where the light

1:05:51

bulb went off. Oh, literary agent. And

1:05:54

then I was in that role, did that for

1:05:56

three years. And I realized this is not the

1:05:58

role for me. suit my

1:06:00

personality. I am not a born sales

1:06:02

person. If you put me in a

1:06:04

call where I have to pitch another

1:06:06

author's book, I'm like, no, let me

1:06:08

come back to you. Let me think about this.

1:06:11

I'm also a slow processor, so it just didn't make

1:06:13

sense for me. And it ended up draining

1:06:15

a lot of my energy. And I was, you know,

1:06:17

always in awe of people who do this

1:06:19

full-time. I'm like, you folks are amazing.

1:06:21

And so I had to let that go. And that was

1:06:23

really difficult for me because I'd formed

1:06:26

some beautiful relationships with

1:06:28

authors and colleagues. But just

1:06:30

kind of taking what I've learned there, and

1:06:32

again, just moving the camera and saying, okay,

1:06:34

well, how can I do what I've always

1:06:36

wanted to do, which is support writers and

1:06:38

creatives and busy entrepreneurs and build

1:06:40

something out in a way that aligns with

1:06:43

my energy? So again, the Thrive Coaching Program

1:06:45

made sense for that. Doing some

1:06:47

teaching, being a creative writing instructor

1:06:49

also really helped with that because I wanted to

1:06:51

work with authors who hadn't yet

1:06:54

published and who were really interested

1:06:56

in building a full-length project. So

1:06:59

through my creative writing instruction, I also did

1:07:01

the same thing I do in

1:07:03

every other category. I filtered in that that

1:07:05

author care almost like indirectly. I'm like, let's

1:07:07

talk about what it will look like for

1:07:09

you to be out there in the world

1:07:12

with this book. What are your dreams and

1:07:14

goals? And so some writers would say, oh

1:07:16

yeah, I can't wait to make like a

1:07:18

million dollars with my book. And I'm like,

1:07:20

okay, hold on, hold on. Like, let's talk

1:07:23

about the reality of book advances, but also

1:07:25

how having a book in the world can

1:07:27

be a catalyst for all kinds of

1:07:29

different opportunities. So anytime I'm working with

1:07:31

a writer who has these big ideas

1:07:33

of becoming a millionaire from their book,

1:07:35

I'm like, let's move the

1:07:37

lens over here and talk about this book

1:07:40

as a catalyst for a creative

1:07:42

career that maybe you didn't anticipate.

1:07:44

So all these different vantage points,

1:07:46

I think, are connected to one

1:07:48

main core, which is how can

1:07:50

they help creatives have a healthy,

1:07:53

balanced career? And so really depends

1:07:55

on the person because again, not everyone has

1:07:57

those big, bold dreams of taking

1:07:59

their their poetry book and

1:08:01

making it, you know, something for the

1:08:03

world. And it really depends. Every writer

1:08:06

is different and I think all we have

1:08:08

to do is ask them. That's something we

1:08:10

often skip. We make the assumption. If someone's

1:08:12

writing, they automatically want to publish and that's

1:08:14

not always the case. Yeah, very much

1:08:16

so. Okay, so for our listeners, I'm

1:08:18

just gonna read the jacket copy to

1:08:20

you for let it go, free yourself

1:08:22

from old beliefs and find a new

1:08:25

path to joy. So here we go

1:08:27

and read that to you. This warm,

1:08:29

candid and essential book will guide you

1:08:31

to carve a new path to joy

1:08:33

as unique as each of us. Written

1:08:35

by the founder of Breathing Space Creative

1:08:37

Literary Studio, acclaimed writer and editor Shaleen

1:08:40

Knight, let it go draws on personal

1:08:42

experience and the advice of leaders from

1:08:44

various black communities to share

1:08:46

hard-won tools for joy discovery. Tools

1:08:48

such as how to say no

1:08:50

with love, how to call back

1:08:53

activities that feel good, how to

1:08:55

reshape communication with those closest to

1:08:57

you, how to revise language and

1:08:59

most of all how to learn

1:09:02

to let go in order to

1:09:04

redefine what we think joy is.

1:09:06

Organized around the seasons and the

1:09:08

natural cycle of reflection and renewal,

1:09:11

let it go showcases through conversation

1:09:13

and solitary reflection the broad spectrum

1:09:15

of black realities and reveals the

1:09:18

colorful kaleidoscope of joy and your

1:09:20

own ways to find it. So

1:09:23

that's our jacket copy. Something that struck

1:09:25

me with this Shaleen was that you

1:09:27

know again as writers we keep getting

1:09:29

told that the aim is to find

1:09:31

something with crossover appeal. The broader the

1:09:34

demographic that your book can appeal to

1:09:36

the better so if it's fantasy but

1:09:38

also YA and there's romance and older

1:09:40

people and younger people and gay people

1:09:42

and straight people will love it then

1:09:45

you've hit the sweet spot. And

1:09:47

this book talking about finding joy

1:09:49

you could have pitched it to

1:09:51

everyone and yet you had

1:09:53

it very clear in your mind who

1:09:55

the demographic of your audience would be.

1:09:57

By saying that it was around the

1:10:00

broad spectrum of black realities. So I

1:10:02

love your intentionality here and I love

1:10:04

that you're saying it is perfectly fine

1:10:06

for a book to be marketed at

1:10:09

a specific demographic. Not every book needs

1:10:11

to be for every single audience and

1:10:13

if you have it very clearly in

1:10:15

your mind who you are speaking to,

1:10:17

who you want to pick up this

1:10:20

book, I think it means that that

1:10:22

book can just be so much richer,

1:10:25

so much more focused to the people who

1:10:27

need it. So can you speak a bit

1:10:29

about that as well? I think the

1:10:31

audience is incredibly important and it also

1:10:33

helps you as the writer of this

1:10:35

book to self-evaluate because I think again

1:10:37

in publishing we want our books to

1:10:40

be successful but for the most part

1:10:42

we have no idea what that

1:10:44

means and so we are judging ourselves

1:10:46

based on what we see our peers

1:10:48

doing and for me I am all

1:10:51

about how do I compete with the last

1:10:53

version of myself and so when I know

1:10:55

who I'm speaking to and I know I

1:10:57

can get the book in those people's hands

1:10:59

everything else becomes a bonus and again it

1:11:01

allows me to show up in a way

1:11:03

that makes sense for me because I know

1:11:05

exactly who I'm speaking to and I'm not

1:11:07

trying to be that person that is for

1:11:09

everyone because that's not going to work out

1:11:11

and your audience is going to lose trust

1:11:13

in who you are and what you're doing

1:11:15

which is something that I think a lot

1:11:17

about. So I think this idea

1:11:19

of audience is incredibly important but it needs

1:11:22

to make sense for you as a writer

1:11:24

and realize that that can change over time.

1:11:26

So asking yourself what your specific goals are,

1:11:28

how can you build up a readership? So

1:11:30

you might want to stick to the same

1:11:32

genre and really make sure your writers know who

1:11:35

you are so they can anticipate that next book

1:11:37

in that same vein or I kind of broke

1:11:39

all of those rules and I'm jumping all over

1:11:41

the place but that was important to me to

1:11:43

be able to really feel out the genres and to

1:11:45

find the one that makes sense for me and I

1:11:47

think would let it go I found that genre.

1:11:50

This feels like this is the shaleen

1:11:52

that has been waiting to come out

1:11:55

and has been experimenting for years and

1:11:57

years and finally it brought her

1:11:59

here. So I'm happy with the

1:12:01

book and I hope that it finds my

1:12:03

audience. I really do. Yeah and you know

1:12:05

it, I'm not a Black reader. I'm a

1:12:08

white writer, I'm a white reader and I

1:12:10

loved this book as well. You know there's

1:12:12

the personal universal elements. So

1:12:14

you know for our listeners because

1:12:17

you know that is kind of Shaleen's, that's

1:12:19

who she's speaking to does not mean that

1:12:22

it excludes other readers. I absolutely love this

1:12:24

book. There was so much that spoke to

1:12:26

me in this book as well but I

1:12:28

could understand why she was focusing on the

1:12:31

demographic that she was. We don't

1:12:33

have much time left Shaleen so I just want to get

1:12:35

through. I love how you structured

1:12:37

the book in terms of the seasons

1:12:39

and you spoke about the seasons earlier.

1:12:41

So can we speak about your intentionality

1:12:43

when you sat down to outline this

1:12:46

book, how you decided that that was

1:12:48

the way you were going to go and then

1:12:50

how you worked everything else around that. Yeah I

1:12:52

think when you as a writer can figure

1:12:54

out the shape for your book everything starts

1:12:56

to make sense. Shape is something I

1:12:59

think about all the time. If

1:13:01

I'm editing and I'm working on another project

1:13:03

shape is everything. I dream about it and

1:13:05

this just happened to me last night so

1:13:07

I won't go off on a tangent about

1:13:09

that but when I picture a shape in my

1:13:11

head it is so clear. So for me

1:13:13

I was really struggling to write the book and

1:13:16

I think because I was trying so hard to

1:13:18

write to something I think my editor

1:13:20

might have wanted and as soon as I let

1:13:22

that go and I'm like Shaleen just do what

1:13:24

you know you want to do and so I'm

1:13:26

walking outside I do what I always do I

1:13:28

pay attention to the world around me I slow

1:13:30

down and I'm like how am I

1:13:32

feeling right now in this moment how am I feeling

1:13:35

right now in the spring and it was then it

1:13:37

was like oh okay the seasons this is so connected

1:13:39

to who I am as a person why

1:13:41

don't I use that as a shape because I

1:13:44

know I can physically feel I

1:13:46

can sense how I change

1:13:48

throughout the seasons how can I get that

1:13:50

on the page and then it just all

1:13:52

made sense for me I knew about all

1:13:54

the different things I wanted to speak about

1:13:56

for example the deep listening section

1:13:58

and thinking about how that connected

1:14:00

to me in that particular season. What does

1:14:03

it mean to really think about belonging and

1:14:05

home, something I've been writing about my whole

1:14:07

life? What does that look like in the

1:14:09

winter? And then all these things just started

1:14:11

to come out, but it was really important

1:14:13

for me as well to have conversations with

1:14:15

other Black leaders. And so calling in, you

1:14:18

know, Alex L, who's this wonderful

1:14:20

advocate for self-care, and I

1:14:22

met her through Instagram, and then

1:14:24

calling in other writers who I

1:14:26

admired, like David Cherryandy and Taya

1:14:28

Mutangi, calling them into the room and

1:14:31

learning, you know, what does it look like for them

1:14:33

to experience joy for the seasons?

1:14:35

So that really informed how I wrote

1:14:37

the book, having the conversations, thinking about

1:14:39

the shape, and zeroing in

1:14:41

on this core audience that I

1:14:44

really wanted to speak to, while

1:14:46

also being welcoming for other people

1:14:48

who didn't fit into that demographic. This is

1:14:50

for you too. And that felt right for

1:14:52

me. That felt like a loving, the loving

1:14:54

book that I wanted to put out in

1:14:56

the world. Last question. You said that this

1:14:58

was the book that helped you say this

1:15:00

is the shaleen. This is the writing that

1:15:03

I want to do. And so

1:15:05

everything is a process. You had to write Juni

1:15:07

and Dear Current Occupants. You had to go through

1:15:09

all of that. You had to start everything that

1:15:11

you did. You had to let go of the

1:15:13

things that you let go of to get to

1:15:15

the point where you were able to write this

1:15:18

book. But at the same time, you

1:15:20

now have an audience and you have

1:15:22

a platform. And I want to speak

1:15:24

a bit about that as well, because

1:15:26

I think that there are many writers

1:15:28

out there who want to write in

1:15:30

nonfiction, who want to write in this space.

1:15:33

But it's so difficult because like, if

1:15:35

you're a debut novelist, it's fine. You

1:15:37

don't need the platform. So long as

1:15:39

the book's good, there you go. But

1:15:41

when you're writing this kind of book,

1:15:43

nonfiction, publishers are like, who's your platform?

1:15:45

How many followers do you have, etc.

1:15:48

So can you give them some advice in

1:15:50

terms of how they know once they're at

1:15:52

the point where they can put this kind

1:15:54

of book out into the world and the

1:15:56

work they need to do beforehand? Very

1:15:59

good. question. I think really

1:16:01

just focusing on what your goals are

1:16:03

and what does it look like to

1:16:06

show up for you because again building

1:16:08

a platform has to put you out

1:16:10

there. You have to be out there

1:16:12

talking about all kinds of things so

1:16:14

can you pick a topic or take

1:16:16

a stance or have an opinion that

1:16:18

makes you feel comfortable but also

1:16:20

puts the spotlight on you. So

1:16:22

for me you know I've got all these

1:16:24

different opinions I don't believe we need more

1:16:26

time to do the creative thing we just

1:16:28

need to better manage our energy. That is

1:16:30

my kind of unpopular opinion but I've been

1:16:32

using that to splinter out into all these

1:16:35

different areas. So what is your angle? What

1:16:37

is something you are really

1:16:39

into? What is something that makes you

1:16:41

you and how can you talk about

1:16:43

that as widely as possible? And thinking

1:16:45

about engagement is something I think we

1:16:47

kind of skipped so I would rather

1:16:49

have you know two to five thousand

1:16:52

engaged followers than

1:16:54

a million people who would never spend a dollar

1:16:56

on anything that I put out there

1:16:58

and I feel like I have that. I feel like my followers

1:17:01

trust me it's a smaller following but they trust

1:17:03

me. If I put something out there I can

1:17:05

see everyone raising their hand saying I want that

1:17:07

and that means something to me. So really kind

1:17:09

of building out your own rubric for what it

1:17:12

means to have a platform and then how can

1:17:14

you communicate the value of that platform

1:17:16

to the person in charge of

1:17:18

making the decision about your book.

1:17:20

Those are things I've been thinking about and

1:17:22

that I help authors with. I'm not a

1:17:24

platform expert by any means. Some things

1:17:27

just happen by accident but just if you're

1:17:29

comfortable with putting yourself out there in a

1:17:31

way that aligns with who you are then

1:17:34

that's you taking control over how you show

1:17:36

up and that's where your energy reserves

1:17:38

come into play. So if you're putting yourself out

1:17:40

there in a way that drains you good

1:17:42

luck because how are you gonna maintain that?

1:17:45

So if I'm out there doing podcasts, I'm

1:17:47

nourished, I know that. If I'm out there

1:17:49

doing live video sessions I love that, I

1:17:51

know that. So make sure that whatever you're

1:17:53

doing to be visible aligns with your energy

1:17:56

and then you know

1:17:58

possibilities Are endless really.? Of

1:18:00

my advice. I love

1:18:02

that and I think authenticity as well. This

1:18:04

is so important. Like you say you know

1:18:06

too often we comparing ourselves to other people

1:18:08

and are trying to be like other people

1:18:10

in and when we do that we come

1:18:12

across as in authentic and asked draining it

1:18:15

And when you're able to just sit down

1:18:17

to be like this is me guys this

1:18:19

is who I am. This is what I'm

1:18:21

doing a thing you know that nourishing for

1:18:23

yourself and your followers one hundred percent connect

1:18:25

with that as well as saline. Thank you

1:18:27

so so much for joining us today! For

1:18:29

our listeners we are linking to. Let it

1:18:31

go. On a bookshop.org affiliate page you can

1:18:33

buy at their support an independent bookstore and

1:18:35

support the podcast at the same time. Saline

1:18:37

we have to have you back against yes

1:18:40

I hope to be back. Thank you so

1:18:42

much for having me has been great. And

1:18:44

that's it for today's episode: I hope

1:18:47

you'll join us the next week, so

1:18:49

in the meantime keep at it, remember

1:18:51

it just takes one. Good

1:18:58

news everyone the January pay to

1:19:00

read the messed up registration is

1:19:02

now open. What better way to

1:19:05

kick off your twenty twenty four

1:19:07

created year than to get eyes

1:19:09

on your work in progress? It's

1:19:11

the perfect way to test cricket,

1:19:13

expand your writing. And

1:19:16

to learn more about the cost

1:19:18

of writing and you critique other

1:19:20

vices, work at the same time

1:19:22

to get more information about the

1:19:25

matchup and to register. that's again

1:19:27

com right? Dot Com and look

1:19:29

for the basically the Msf page

1:19:31

registrations close at the end of

1:19:33

January with the actual messed up

1:19:35

happening on the first of February.

1:19:37

Naps where your energy reserves come.

1:19:39

Into Play. So if you're putting yourself out

1:19:42

there in a way that dreams you, good

1:19:44

luck as are you. Dinner, maintain that. So

1:19:46

I'm older than podcast and nourished. I know

1:19:49

that if I am older doing live video

1:19:51

sessions, I love that the know that so

1:19:53

make sure that whatever you're doing to be

1:19:55

visible aligns with your. Energy. And

1:19:57

then you know possibilities are. One

1:20:00

really at my advice. I

1:20:03

love that and I think authenticity as well.

1:20:05

This is so important. Like you say you

1:20:07

know too often we comparing ourselves to other

1:20:09

people and are trying to be like other

1:20:11

people in and when we do that we

1:20:13

come across as in authentic and acted draining

1:20:15

it and when you're able to just sit

1:20:17

down to be like this is me guys

1:20:19

this is who I am. This is what

1:20:21

I'm doing a thing you know that nourishing

1:20:24

for yourself and your followers one hundred percent

1:20:26

connect with that as well as silly. Thank

1:20:28

you so so much for joining us today

1:20:30

For our listeners we are linking to. Let

1:20:32

it go. On a bookshop.org affiliate page you

1:20:34

can buy at their support an independent bookstore

1:20:36

and support the podcast as the same time.

1:20:38

saline we have to have you back again.

1:20:40

Yes, I hope to be back! Thank you

1:20:42

so much for having me has been great.

1:20:45

And. That's it for today's episode: "I

1:20:47

hope you'll join us the next

1:20:49

week show in the meantime, keep

1:20:51

at it, remember it just takes

1:20:53

one. Is

1:21:03

now open. What better way to

1:21:06

kick off your twenty twenty four

1:21:08

created year than to get eyes

1:21:10

on your work in progress? It's

1:21:12

the perfect way to get critique,

1:21:15

expand your writing community, and to

1:21:17

learn more about the cost of

1:21:19

writing as you critique as advisors,

1:21:22

work at the same time to

1:21:24

get more information, a thought matchup,

1:21:26

and to register or to be

1:21:29

on camera.com and look for the

1:21:31

basically the mecca page registrations. Close

1:21:33

at the end of January with the

1:21:35

actual messed up happening on the first.

1:21:37

Of February.