0:00

Hello there, and welcome

0:00

to another episode of Let's

0:02

chat... I'm Claire Sandys,

0:02

co-host of The Silent Why

0:05

podcast and blog writer for

0:05

thesilentwhy.com. In these

0:09

episodes, I chat to a guest who

0:09

has experience or expertise in a

0:12

particular area that can either

0:12

help us deal with, prepare for,

0:15

or is linked to, loss. And

0:15

through them, I'm building a

0:18

whole tool shed of equipment to

0:18

help us face and get through

0:21

loss and grief. So at the end of

0:21

each episode, I ask our guests

0:24

what sort of tool their subject

0:24

would be, and then I'm adding it

0:27

to my metaphorical shed. So far,

0:27

I've had a very useful spade, a

0:31

bag of compost and a Swiss army

0:31

knife. In this episode of Let's

0:34

chat..., I'm chatting to Jared

0:34

Altic, who is a full time pastor

0:38

and a Police Chaplain in Kansas

0:38

City, right in the middle of the

0:41

U.S. And we're talking about

0:41

Police Chaplains, who respond to

0:45

families of crime victims and

0:45

work long term with police in

0:48

areas of wellness. Jared hosts a

0:48

podcast called Hey, Chaplain,

0:52

which I recently started

0:52

listening to a fascinating

0:54

insight into his work alongside

0:54

police officers. And I just

0:57

couldn't wait to chat to him and

0:57

ask all the questions I had

1:00

about what it's like to support

1:00

people in a job that deals with

1:02

so much loss and hurt on a daily

1:02

basis. So grab a cup of tea or

1:06

coffee or craft beer, if that's

1:06

your thing (and it's after

1:09

midday, maybe, where you are),

1:09

and relaxes me and Jared as we

1:13

chat, Police Chaplains.

1:17

My name is Jared Altic,

1:17

and I'm a chaplain with the

1:19

police department. Typically my

1:19

day job is I work at a church

1:23

and so I'm a Pastor at a church

1:23

I write sermons, I teach adult

1:28

classes, I do counselling, that

1:28

kind of thing, weddings, and

1:31

funerals, and all that sort of

1:31

thing. But I also volunteer with

1:35

the local police department in

1:35

Kansas City. And I am on call,

1:41

so I have a police car, and I

1:41

used to carry around a pager,

1:45

now they've switched over to

1:45

contacting us through our

1:48

phones. But whenever there's an

1:48

unattended death, they will call

1:52

me. So that'd be that'd be

1:52

homicides, suicides, accidental

1:57

deaths, natural deaths where

1:57

there was no doctor present. And

2:01

when it's deemed necessary, I'll

2:01

be called out a lot of times if

2:06

there's grieving family, or lots

2:06

of onlookers, who are very

2:10

upset, I'll be called out to

2:10

help with with those scenes and

2:15

also help with the police

2:15

officers. I do ride alongs with

2:19

police officers while they're on

2:19

patrol, and I go to their roll

2:23

calls their meetings at the

2:23

beginning of their shift. And I

2:26

try to participate in the life

2:26

of the police department. So I

2:30

can help those first responders

2:30

while they help people in our

2:34

community.

2:34

That sounds like a

2:34

really exciting area of pastoral

2:37

work.

2:38

It can be yes. It can be

2:38

very exciting to be very

2:41

interesting.

2:42

What sort of drew you

2:42

into that? How did you get get

2:44

into the idea of going from

2:44

pastor to police chaplain?

2:46

You know, it's funny, I

2:46

never had any interest in law

2:50

enforcement. I was not one of

2:50

those kids who grew up playing

2:53

cops and robbers and I didn't

2:53

fantasise of being a police

2:57

officer someday, that was never

2:57

an interest. But as I've been

3:01

working in church for the last

3:01

25 years, God kept putting

3:05

police officers in my church.

3:05

And so I would be ministering to

3:09

their family and to them and

3:09

also to military people we're

3:13

near a military installation. So

3:13

we have a lot of military

3:16

officers and their families. And

3:16

so I kept encountering them and

3:21

encountering the unique problems

3:21

that they would have with with

3:26

the types of stress that they're

3:26

exposed to and, and the kind of

3:30

difficulty and how isolating it

3:30

can be. And so, so over several

3:34

years, I kind of learned by

3:34

trial and error, how to help

3:39

those families. And I just felt

3:39

compelled, I really needed to do

3:43

more, and so I got involved with

3:43

the local police department.

3:46

So what is your split of

3:46

work like when it comes to

3:48

supporting police officers and

3:48

what they've been through, and

3:50

then supporting maybe a grieving

3:50

victim's family or something

3:53

like that?

3:54

You know, that changes

3:54

from one chaplain to the next.

3:55

What sort of things are you

3:55

having to deal with? What sort

3:57

Some chaplains are specialists

3:57

with helping the victims of

4:01

violent crime. They are trained

4:01

counsellors they maybe, you

4:05

know, clinical psychiatrists or

4:05

psychologists, they they have

4:10

experience with, you know, grief

4:10

counselling and crisis

4:13

counselling. And so sometimes

4:13

they wear, you know, that first

4:18

hat of helping crime victims,

4:18

they do that and they do it

4:22

really well and they focus on

4:22

that. I do some of that, but

4:26

really, my focus is more with

4:26

the first responders. I want to

4:30

have that other hat on, where

4:30

it's a long-term relationship

4:34

instead of the short term

4:34

relationship. I want to have

4:38

that long-term relationship with

4:38

the officers and to help them

4:42

and their families deal with the

4:42

unique stresses of law

4:46

enforcement. So I focus more on

4:46

that end, I'm more interested in

4:51

and developing a rapport and

4:51

trying to develop a trusting

4:55

relationship with those officers

4:55

before they're in crisis before

4:59

it gets to be too much for them

4:59

or begins to affect their family

5:03

in a negative way. I am

5:03

efforting to to build that

5:07

relationship in advance, and I'm

5:07

willing to take years to do it

5:11

if that's what if that's what's needed.

5:16

of situations are you dealing

5:16

with that first responders,

5:22

police officers, go through? Well, that's really interesting.

5:24

Typically, police officers are

5:29

pretty well adjusted people who,

5:29

who, you know, they understand

5:33

what kind of job they got into,

5:33

and they're, they manage the

5:36

stress and cope with it pretty

5:36

well most of the time. But

5:40

sometimes they're thrown

5:40

curveballs, the unexpected

5:43

things happen to them that they

5:43

don't expect. And, and so they

5:48

probably had an in their

5:48

imaginations, that they would be

5:53

this person who would charge in

5:53

and rescue the innocent, they

5:57

would, they would help out in a

5:57

situation where maybe there's an

6:00

abusive person hurting a woman

6:00

or a child, and that they were

6:03

going to help take that abuser

6:03

out of the situation, or they

6:07

were going to rescue somebody

6:07

from certain death, that kind of

6:09

thing. And that does happen in

6:09

law enforcement. But sometimes,

6:14

an officer goes into that line

6:14

of work expecting to see results

6:19

really positive results like

6:19

that, where they made a

6:22

difference, and they can measure

6:22

it, they can see it, they know

6:26

that they helped. And sometimes

6:26

it doesn't work out like that.

6:29

And so they go into a situation

6:29

they remove, let's say that in

6:32

that scenario, I just described

6:32

an abuser, that's hurting women

6:35

and children, and they arrest

6:35

that person and take them off to

6:38

jail. But then a month later,

6:38

they get called back out to the

6:41

same address. And that woman has

6:41

let that abuser back into her

6:45

home. And he continued to hurt

6:45

her and hurt her children. And

6:50

all of that work was really kind

6:50

of for nothing, or at least it

6:53

feels like that work was not

6:53

effective, that it was futile.

7:00

And and that creates a kind of

7:00

loss in the officer because

7:05

because he sees that no matter

7:05

how hard he tries, there's still

7:09

going to be suffering in this

7:09

world. And he thought he got

7:12

into law enforcement to prevent

7:12

suffering and to be the solution

7:15

to suffering. And instead, his

7:15

whole identity of himself or

7:20

herself, it could be rattled, it

7:20

could be could even be lost.

7:24

Because it's like, 'Well, why do

7:24

I keep doing this?' if these

7:27

people are going to keep putting

7:27

themselves back in bad

7:30

situations with substance abuse

7:30

and violence, and, and all kinds

7:35

of trouble. If I can't fix it,

7:35

then what am I here for? And and

7:41

sometimes that begins to really

7:41

erode at an officer's heart and

7:47

his his concept of himself and,

7:47

and why he became a police

7:51

officer to begin with. And and

7:51

and they really grieve that it's

7:56

like suffering, it's a loss of

7:56

identity. And so he really is

8:01

hurt by that and wounded by

8:01

that. And typically police

8:04

officers have a very tough

8:04

exterior, and they don't admit

8:08

that anything's bothering them.

8:08

But but in the inside, they may

8:12

be really having a crisis of who

8:12

they are and what they're doing.

8:16

And really be suffering

8:16

emotionally, because of the loss

8:20

of that identity. And that sense

8:20

of purpose that they thought

8:24

they were getting in to law

8:24

enforcement for in the first

8:27

place. So so that's a, that's a

8:27

tough thing for them to even

8:31

understand about themselves.

8:31

It's hard to tell from the

8:34

outside where an officer is at,

8:34

because you could ask them,

8:37

aren't you okay? They all say

8:37

they're fine. You know, I'll go

8:41

around and check on police officers at the scene of a homicide, and inevitably,

8:43

they'll all get real tough, and

8:46

they'll be like, 'Oh, Chaplain,

8:46

I'm fine. Don't worry about me,

8:49

this isn't my first dead body.'

8:49

And they probably are mostly

8:54

fine, but eventually it starts

8:54

to to erode at who they are and

9:00

what they are, and that will

9:00

begin to affect them. And it can

9:03

lead to substance abuse, it can

9:03

lead to suicidal ideation, it

9:08

can lead to, to just dysfunction

9:08

in their life emotionally, where

9:13

it erodes the relationships and

9:13

and it isolates them from their

9:17

friends and family. And it can

9:17

have all kinds of negative

9:20

effects just like anybody going

9:20

through a grief process. You

9:24

know, it can, it can have

9:24

detrimental effects on the

9:28

relationships with the people

9:28

around you. And so and so these

9:31

cops sometimes suffer in exactly

9:31

the same kind of ways, but

9:35

they're hiding it behind that

9:35

tough exterior. And they don't

9:39

trust people to just come in and

9:39

and help them. And so that's

9:44

where as a chaplain, I can speak

9:44

their language, I'm with them in

9:48

the patrol car and at the police

9:48

station. And I understand even

9:52

though I'm not a cop, I

9:52

understand their world well

9:56

enough to speak to them and to

9:56

maybe with at least some of

10:00

them, earn their trust. And

10:00

that's, that's my goal with

10:04

that.

10:05

Usually I can kind of

10:05

work out a way that you might be

10:07

able to help people. But with

10:07

this one, I'm thinking, how do

10:09

you help someone because I can

10:09

see that it would be a bit like

10:13

it doesn't feel very rewarding

10:13

what I'm doing, it's not what I

10:15

came in to do, I'm, you know,

10:15

having this tough exterior, and

10:18

I need to look like that, because that's part of my job, people look to me for

10:20

protection. And yes, and yet

10:23

inside, I'm struggling with all

10:23

these issues. How do you help

10:26

with that is that? Just

10:26

relationship like you said, it's

10:28

a long-term thing of building

10:28

these relationships?

10:30

Yeah. Chaplains call that

10:30

the 'ministry of presence'. And

10:34

so you are present in their

10:34

life, and you share some of the

10:39

bad experiences. military

10:39

chaplains are really good at

10:41

this because a military

10:41

chaplain, in theory, will

10:44

parachute in with the soldiers

10:44

into a combat zone. And even

10:48

though the chaplains not there

10:48

to do combat, he shares the

10:52

hardships of combat with those

10:52

soldiers. He's on the ship with

10:57

the sailors. And so he sees what

10:57

they see, he eats the same food,

11:01

he sleeps on the same schedule,

11:01

he understands their world, even

11:05

though he's not exactly the same

11:05

as them. And so that is a huge

11:10

advantage for a helper, where a

11:10

lot of helpers, a lot of

11:13

counsellors and psychologists

11:13

and such, they are very well

11:17

educated, but they have no

11:17

relationship to the world that

11:22

that police officer lives in.

11:22

And they don't know the jargon.

11:25

They don't know the ups and

11:25

downs and the ins and outs. And

11:29

it's very hard for them to

11:29

learn. And usually a chaplain

11:32

can help bridge that gap and

11:32

kind of be that first line of

11:36

pastoral help, religiously

11:36

speaking, but also in mental

11:40

health, you know, kind of be

11:40

that first counsellor that they

11:43

engage maybe not long term, but

11:43

but they can, you know, guide a

11:48

police officer toward more

11:48

extensive counselling and more

11:50

clinical help.

11:52

I can imagine there must be quite a few different barriers of going into work in

11:54

that area for the first time

11:57

having a faith or coming in as

11:57

the "chaplain" (in inverted

12:00

commas). I'm guessing that's

12:00

quite a big barrier at first

12:02

maybe to get over because they

12:02

might be a bit like, 'we don't

12:05

need you'.

12:05

Yes, yes.

12:06

How do you find, how do you get on with that?

12:08

Yeah, in the United

12:08

States, uh, we are definitely

12:11

less religious than we were

12:11

maybe 20 years ago. So there's

12:15

more people who are

12:15

unaffiliated, non religious,

12:19

that that's more common than it

12:19

was 20 years ago. Also, you're

12:23

dealing with a demographic,

12:23

usually young men in their 20s

12:27

and 30s, who are notoriously non

12:27

religious, some of these same

12:31

people will be religious people,

12:31

20 years from now, you know,

12:34

when they're in midlife, but but

12:34

at this stage right out of

12:37

college, they don't go to

12:37

church, they don't want to admit

12:40

anything about needing something

12:40

spiritually. And so a chaplain

12:44

comes in and does have that

12:44

association with religion, that

12:48

may be very off putting to them,

12:48

and so and so a lot of times, it

12:52

is difficult to be a chaplain,

12:52

and you walk into the police

12:55

station, and the police officers

12:55

are swearing a blue streak, and

12:59

and they you know, they're

12:59

telling some filthy story or

13:02

telling a filthy joke. And then

13:02

they turn around and realise

13:06

that chaplains already come in

13:06

the room, and they're so

13:08

embarrassed, and they don't know

13:08

how to act and, and that can be

13:11

a barrier. But I try to tell

13:11

police officers, you know, hey,

13:15

I'm not here to judge you, I'm

13:15

not here to preach my religion

13:18

at you. I am a religious person,

13:18

but I'm here to help you. And

13:23

you don't have to be religious

13:23

yourself, or you could even be a

13:26

different religion than what

13:26

what I practice, and I am still

13:29

going to love you, I'm still

13:29

going to help you, I'm still

13:33

going to do everything I can to

13:33

understand where you're at and

13:36

provide assistance to you. And

13:36

if a chaplain can stick with it,

13:41

and act with integrity, and

13:41

speak honestly and not be there

13:45

for any ulterior motive, then

13:45

usually, I think a chaplain in

13:49

the matter of a few years can

13:49

start to experience some

13:54

acceptance. But a lot of people

13:54

don't have the patience for

13:57

that, they want to walk in and

13:57

get immediate results, and they

14:01

want to get immediate respect.

14:01

And that's not going to happen

14:04

in a police department, I'm

14:04

sorry, if you're an outsider,

14:07

you're you're an outsider and

14:07

and they don't want anything to

14:10

do with you, and it's going to

14:10

take a long time to get behind

14:12

the badge. Some people have

14:12

thrown out numbers of like 18

14:16

months or two years, I see that.

14:16

I mean, I'm at my department now

14:20

for five years, and I definitely

14:20

am in a better place now than it

14:24

was five years ago, but that

14:24

clock starts at a different time

14:27

with each officer. And so

14:27

there's new officers who have

14:31

transferred in or they're new

14:31

out of the academy, and they've

14:34

only known me for a few months,

14:34

and so I really can't expect

14:38

them to feel safe, opening up to

14:38

me or showing any kind of

14:42

transparency or vulnerability

14:42

until they've known me for

14:45

probably a couple years. And

14:45

that's that's difficult because

14:49

they might have a crisis before

14:49

them, but it's not reasonable to

14:53

expect them to just open up and

14:53

be vulnerable to an outsider

14:57

before they've you know, really

14:57

before I've earned their trust.

15:01

Are there certain sort

15:01

of crimes or situations they

15:05

have to face that are more

15:05

likely to have, I don't know,

15:08

things come up that you need to

15:08

help them deal with? Or is it

15:10

more dependent on the individual

15:10

and what affects them?

15:14

It is individualistic. It

15:14

certainly certainly, just like

15:18

all of us, we all have our own

15:18

vulnerabilities, the our own set

15:24

of things that we are sensitive

15:24

to based on our own background,

15:28

there are certainly some

15:28

officers, if they grew up in an

15:31

abusive home, when they go to a

15:31

domestic violence call, and they

15:35

see the same kind of abuse

15:35

that's really going to affect

15:38

them. And another officer

15:38

wouldn't be affected by that at

15:40

all. It's common that the call

15:40

out to a to, you know, forgive

15:48

me, but but a dead baby. That is

15:48

that is a particularly sensitive

15:54

because every one has compassion

15:54

for children. And to see a hurt

15:58

child or a dead child, that

15:58

that's very difficult,

16:02

especially for some of these

16:02

young men and women who are

16:05

themselves starting families.

16:05

And so they have a child the

16:09

same age at home, and then they

16:09

go out and they see this child

16:12

that's been a victim of abuse or

16:12

this, or maybe it's just a child

16:15

that died of natural causes. But

16:15

but that is extremely difficult

16:20

to see a young child who should

16:20

be full of life, and they see

16:23

that child is is not full of

16:23

life. And that that's very

16:27

hurtful. I've asked the

16:27

sergeants and the captains in

16:30

our department, if there is a

16:30

call out for a deceased child,

16:35

call me, I don't care if I'm on

16:35

call or not call my personal

16:39

cell phone. And, and have me

16:39

come out not necessarily for the

16:44

citizens that are experiencing

16:44

that because I can help there

16:48

too. But primarily for the

16:48

officers, those officers are

16:51

going to have that tough

16:51

exterior, but I don't want them

16:55

to turn to all of the bad coping

16:55

mechanisms like drugs and

17:00

alcohol, or, or dangerous

17:00

behaviour, I don't want them to

17:04

get on a motorcycle and drive

17:04

120 mile an hour and wreck that

17:08

motorcycle and kill themselves

17:08

accidentally, because they're

17:11

trying to work out the stress of

17:11

what they've gone through, I

17:14

want to try to be at least one

17:14

of the options, and hopefully a

17:18

healthy, very healthy option to

17:18

help them out in a situation

17:22

like that. But yeah, suicides

17:22

and dead children. And those

17:27

kinds of things, as officers get

17:27

called out, every time it

17:30

happens in our city, they get

17:30

called out. And same with our

17:33

firefighters and medical people

17:33

that they see that and they're

17:37

exposed to it, and it it cost

17:37

them something emotionally, to

17:43

see that again and again. And again.

17:45

Do they come to you

17:45

after that? Or do you go to

17:47

them? And can you make someone

17:47

come and see you and chat to you

17:50

if you think they've got

17:50

issues? Or do you have to wait

17:52

for them to come?

17:53

You have to wait for them

17:53

to come to you, I do make an

17:57

effort to reach out to people

17:57

like if we have an officer

18:01

involved shooting, which is when

18:01

an officer has to draw weapon

18:05

and use force against somebody,

18:05

doesn't mean that they killed

18:08

the person necessarily, but if

18:08

they have to use deadly force

18:11

against, you know, it could be a

18:11

perpetrator of a crime, but

18:16

regardless of the scenario, if

18:16

they have to use that force, I

18:19

try to reach out to that

18:19

officer, but I can't make them

18:21

respond. I can intercept them, I

18:21

can, you know, I know what

18:25

shifts, they work. And I can

18:25

make sure that I show up the

18:27

same time they show up for work,

18:27

and they have the opportunity to

18:31

talk to me, but I can't make

18:31

them. And so all I can do is try

18:36

to be a good and reliable

18:36

resource for them. And the ones

18:40

who know me, well, will

18:40

typically come to me or they

18:45

they will recommend that their

18:45

their co workers go to me to, to

18:49

at least talk a little bit,

18:49

let's let's talk this out and

18:52

see if we need to go on and do

18:52

counselling with, you know, the

18:55

department's psychiatrist or, or

18:55

with their family doctor or

18:59

whatever. I mean, at least at

18:59

least talking to the chaplain

19:03

could be the gateway to get more

19:03

help later. But yeah, you can't,

19:08

you can't make them I try to be

19:08

proactive. And I try to build

19:11

those relationships. And if I

19:11

know someone's in trouble, I try

19:14

to make myself available, but

19:14

you just can't you can't make

19:17

them do it.

19:18

They're going to know now when they see turning up on their shift every week they're

19:20

going to be like 'he's after me,

19:23

I know he's after me, coming for

19:23

me!' How does it affect things

19:28

like, because I know the police,

19:28

especially in America, they've

19:31

they've got a bit of a bad

19:31

reputation because of a few who

19:33

do things that you know, aren't

19:33

right. And that's gotta be hard

19:37

when it impacts a whole, like

19:37

what we had every industry in

19:40

the UK, you know, the media, the

19:40

politicians, everything has been

19:44

attacked or is coming under fire

19:44

for something. Does that affect

19:47

morale on a more local level? Or

19:47

is it more like 'well, that

19:50

Yeah, well, it's part of

19:50

that demoralising thing I was

19:50

happens'? describing earlier where, where

19:55

part of the experience of law

19:59

enforcement does is not measure

19:59

up to what they hoped it would

20:02

be. And, and part of what they

20:02

imagined was that people would

20:06

appreciate them. And most people

20:06

do. But like a lot of us, one

20:12

critic will be louder in our

20:12

ears than a hundred people who

20:17

are happy with us. And so that

20:17

one critic can can really steal

20:22

your joy and and really rob you

20:22

of your self confidence. And

20:27

there are officers every year,

20:27

who who quit. And they go and do

20:31

another line of work simply

20:31

because of the types of new

20:36

stories that are out there. And

20:36

right now, in the United States,

20:40

every department in America is

20:40

hiring, because they're all

20:43

undermanned, and we're seeing

20:43

some of the lowest numbers we've

20:47

ever seen for for new recruits

20:47

coming in. And that's very

20:52

discouraging, it's very

20:52

disappointing, and makes it much

20:55

more difficult for those

20:55

officers who are still, you

20:58

know, out there doing the work

20:58

every day, because there's fewer

21:01

officers to relieve them, which

21:01

means that they're forced into

21:04

doing overtime work. And they're

21:04

working tired and exhausted,

21:09

which means they might make more

21:09

mistakes. And here they are

21:12

really good people trying to do

21:12

a good thing. And they're being

21:17

vilified and criticised because

21:17

of one in 100,000. That that

21:23

acts badly. But but that's true

21:23

in every line of work. You know,

21:29

it's one bad, you know, doctor

21:29

that gives all doctors a bad

21:33

name. One bad Minister, you

21:33

know, somebody who works in the

21:37

church, I mean, really, there

21:37

aren't that many priests and

21:41

pastors who have abused

21:41

children, the numbers are not

21:44

really that high, but the ones

21:44

who have it was so scandalous,

21:49

and so damaging, that really you

21:49

introduce yourself, as somebody

21:53

who works at a church, there's

21:53

going to be a percentage of

21:55

people who are suspicious of

21:55

you, because of those few bad

21:59

people. So police feel the same

21:59

way that like, man, you see

22:03

somebody go out and do something

22:03

criminal, which police officers

22:06

are the first in line to

22:06

criticise that behaviour, they

22:10

will at the drop of a hat arrest

22:10

a fellow officer for doing

22:14

something illegal, they want

22:14

that person out of the of the

22:19

department, they want that

22:19

person taken away from the work

22:24

of law enforcement, they don't

22:24

want a criminal giving them a

22:28

bad name, but it does still

22:28

happen. And that kind of thing

22:33

is very damaging to morale.

22:35

So if you're taking all

22:35

this in yourself, and I know

22:38

you've done an episode recently

22:38

on compassion fatigue, which I

22:40

would imagine I can see would be

22:40

something, what is your outlet?

22:43

How do you then not become jaded

22:43

by, because obviously, they're

22:47

getting a bit jaded of

22:47

management by humanity, they see

22:49

the worst stuff out there,

22:49

you're helping them take that

22:52

on,what do you do with it?

22:53

Yeah, in practical terms,

22:53

I have adopted since since doing

22:58

that interview, I talked to a

22:58

chaplain in another state, and

23:02

he requires all of his chaplains

23:02

to call somebody immediately

23:06

after a call. Even if you're not

23:06

upset by it, you still go and

23:10

you talk it out and move that

23:10

traumatic experience from your

23:14

short term memory to your long

23:14

term memory. And you talk it

23:17

out. And even if it's just a

23:17

short, debriefing, that's okay.

23:21

But sometimes it turns into kind

23:21

of impromptu counselling, you

23:25

know, talking to another

23:25

chaplain. So I've adopted that

23:28

and I practiced it just this

23:28

week, I had had five deaths that

23:34

I was called to, in about 48

23:34

hours. And that's unusually high

23:39

for us. So I don't typically get

23:39

that many calls. But but we had,

23:43

we had two suicides, two natural

23:43

deaths and an overdose. And, and

23:47

that wasn't necessarily any one

23:47

of them that distressing to me.

23:53

But I'm going to practice what I

23:53

preach, and so I called called

23:56

another chaplain. And I said,

23:56

'Hey, here's what's been going

23:59

on, let me tell you about it'.

23:59

He asked me some questions asked

24:02

me how I was eating and sleeping

24:02

and taking care of myself. And

24:06

that was very good, and very

24:06

helpful. Now, in addition to

24:08

that, you know, I'm a Christian,

24:08

and my faith helps answer some

24:13

of those questions. And so

24:13

that's a great resource. I have

24:16

a very stable family and was

24:16

raised by two loving parents,

24:20

who are still alive. And and and

24:20

I have a lot of great resources.

24:24

I've got five children, and I

24:24

love them. And so I've got a lot

24:27

of healthy people around me, and

24:27

that also is part of my network

24:32

of support. And so I try to

24:32

implement it as many different

24:36

ways as possible. I'm someone

24:36

who is vulnerable to compassion,

24:39

fatigue, and so I'm always

24:39

trying to eat a little better

24:44

and get a little more exercise

24:44

and do better than I've done

24:47

before.

24:48

Just talk us through if

24:48

you get called out, what do you

24:50

actually do when you get there?

24:50

Are you hovering on the

24:52

sidelines? Or do you get

24:52

involved in a very practical

24:55

way? What do you do?

24:56

Well, it's important for

24:56

a chaplain to remember that that

25:00

we are not police officers. And

25:00

that's tough because some

25:03

chaplains used to be police officers.

25:05

Oh gosh, yeah that must be hard.

25:06

And so it's very

25:06

difficult not to want to jump in

25:09

and help. And like, even when

25:09

I'm doing a ride along, where

25:12

I'm on patrol for eight hours

25:12

with a police officer, you know,

25:16

I explained to them, okay, now

25:16

listen, I'm not here to solve

25:20

crimes and catch bad guys, I'm

25:20

certainly not going to hinder

25:23

you, and I'm not going to open

25:23

the door and let the bad guy

25:26

escape, but but it's not my job

25:26

to to actively enforce the law.

25:32

I am a citizen, and I have

25:32

certain responsibilities as a

25:36

citizen, but I'm not a police

25:36

officer. And so when I go, I

25:40

have to be mindful of that,

25:40

because even though I'm not a

25:42

police officer, I do represent

25:42

the police officer. And if I

25:45

respond to a homicide, there

25:45

might be television crews there

25:49

and other media who are

25:49

reporting on the homicide, and,

25:53

and I need to be careful what I

25:53

say and what I don't say

25:56

probably very important that I

25:56

don't say too much, because

25:59

because I do represent the

25:59

department to some degree. So so

26:03

I have to be very cautious of

26:03

that. I get called out and I, I

26:08

usually put that first hat on

26:08

and I help with the victims, you

26:12

know, the family of the victims?

26:12

You know, how can I assist them

26:16

in a short term kind of way? Can

26:16

I call a pastor or priest or

26:20

rabbi? Can I can I, you know,

26:20

contact a counsellor or some

26:24

other person's going to help

26:24

them long term? And I help move

26:28

them to their support network if

26:28

they have one. And so that short

26:32

term care, I probably after a

26:32

few hours, will never see them

26:35

again. But then I have that

26:35

other hat where it's long term

26:39

care. And I go around, and I

26:39

check with all the officers and

26:41

I asked them how they're doing.

26:41

And they each lie to me and tell

26:45

me that they're fine.

26:46

Don't we all though?!

26:49

Yes, yes, yeah. And so

26:49

and so you know, I am trying to

26:53

be present. And sometimes it'll

26:53

be standing in the rain at the,

26:58

at the crime scene tape with an

26:58

officer. And we'll stand there

27:02

for an hour. And then finally he

27:02

starts talking. And and it may

27:07

not be pertinent to the exact

27:07

event that's going on right now.

27:11

But maybe this event right now

27:11

is triggering something that

27:13

happened a year ago. And he's

27:13

just like to talk about it. And

27:17

he can talk to me

27:17

confidentially. And I don't

27:19

report that to his superiors. I

27:19

don't tell my wife about it. I

27:22

don't tell anybody. It'll go to

27:22

the grave with me. And so he can

27:27

talk and it's fairly safe, and

27:27

and sometimes that can develop,

27:32

it doesn't always, but I try to

27:32

make myself available to it.

27:36

And I've got a maybe a

27:36

strange question. What do you

27:39

wear? Are you in police gear?

27:39

Are you in church robes? Or is

27:42

it like a combination of the two? What are you what are you wearing for this?

27:45

I am typically wearing

27:45

civilian clothes.

27:48

Right. Okay.

27:48

So so I typically have

27:48

on, you know, very nondescript

27:52

civilian wear. And then I have a

27:52

lanyard around my neck that has

27:55

my department identification.

27:55

And so I have a picture ID that

28:00

I wear around my neck and I

28:00

could show people if they're

28:02

maybe not familiar with me or

28:02

they're from outside our agency,

28:06

so I can identify myself. Now I

28:06

do have some Chaplain clothing

28:11

that has a logo on it or has the

28:11

word 'Chaplain' printed across

28:15

the chest or across the my back.

28:15

Sometimes that's helpful,

28:18

especially at night to have a

28:18

jacket on like that also have a

28:21

reflective vest. And so bright

28:21

yellow, and it says 'Chaplain'

28:25

on it and so so there's times

28:25

like that, where I'm wearing

28:28

kind of police gear, I mean, but

28:28

but it's not strictly speaking a

28:35

uniform. And there are chaplains

28:35

who do wear uniforms. And and

28:39

there's there are chaplains who

28:39

are sworn officers, and are

28:42

actually a police officer, but

28:42

they their role in the

28:45

department is chaplain. I'm a

28:45

Civilian Volunteer Chaplain. And

28:50

so I kind of kind of straddle

28:50

that line because I'll pull up

28:53

in a police vehicle, I have a

28:53

department vehicle that when I'm

28:56

on call, I drive a police car,

28:56

but but it has lights but it

29:01

doesn't have sirens.

29:02

Aw, that was my next

29:02

question, do you get to put the

29:04

siren on? Well, you get lights,

29:04

that's the next best thing.

29:08

If a chaplain turn the

29:08

siren on, they would take it

29:11

away from us. And so so it's

29:11

very important that we know our

29:13

place.

29:14

Right. Is there anything

29:14

that you ever hear come across

29:17

the radio that you don't like?

29:17

Like, is there a particular call

29:20

that you think, oh, like, your

29:20

heart sinks a bit when you're

29:22

going to it?

29:23

Yes. Well, this morning,

29:23

I came into the office and

29:27

before I turn the car off, a

29:27

police officer was dispatched to

29:32

check on what we call 'signal

29:32

four' and that is a code that's

29:36

used in our department for

29:36

someone who is suicidal. And so

29:41

I hear that and I thought, boy,

29:41

I'm gonna go in and I'm going to

29:44

going to do this podcast

29:44

interview, but I wonder if I'm

29:47

going to get called out because

29:47

if that person has taken their

29:51

life, I might get called to

29:51

that. Now I might not I mean,

29:55

sometimes some somebody will be

29:55

transported to the hospital and

29:59

the hospital will take care of

29:59

the family, the hospital has its

30:02

own chaplains. But but it's very

30:02

possible that I would get called

30:05

out. And and so yeah, I worry

30:05

about that kind of thing. We had

30:10

an officer involved shooting a

30:10

few years ago where I happen to

30:13

be in the car listening to the

30:13

police radio, and it came out

30:18

over the air that somebody had a

30:18

gun, and they were shooting at

30:21

police officers and, and we had

30:21

several officers involved in

30:24

that. And I was I was just down

30:24

the street and I, you know, was

30:27

able to respond and be on scene

30:27

just moments after it happened

30:31

because I was listening to the

30:31

radio, but the typically, I just

30:35

wait for them to call me. And

30:35

and I act, you know, proactively

30:40

just on my own to go out to the

30:40

department not responding to a

30:43

call, but just responding to the

30:43

officer schedules. They they

30:47

come into work, and they see the

30:47

chaplain there, and they say hi,

30:51

and I'm just there for a few

30:51

minutes. And then I go back to

30:53

to my day job, I go back to

30:53

working at the church.

30:57

That must feel safer

30:57

physically, I suppose when you

30:59

walk into that space for your

30:59

job, a bit less bit less risky?

31:02

Well, you know, actually,

31:02

there's, there's a little bit of

31:06

concern, we've had a rise in a

31:06

particular type of crime against

31:10

police officers in the United

31:10

States where there's been a

31:13

little bit of an uptick, of, of

31:13

officers being ambushed, where

31:16

they're in their car, and

31:16

they're not necessarily at the

31:21

scene of a crime, they may be

31:21

eating lunch, or doing a report

31:24

or or watching traffic, and a

31:24

person will sneak up on the car

31:30

and assassinate the officer

31:30

sitting in his car. And so

31:34

that's happened a little bit

31:34

more in recent years. In fact,

31:37

we had an officer that died that

31:37

way in our department. And so

31:42

there's part of me that I'm in a

31:42

in an in a police car that it's

31:46

marked, it says 'Chaplain' down

31:46

the side of it. But it also says

31:50

you know, 'Kansas City, Kansas

31:50

Police Department', and there's

31:52

a little bit of me that's

31:52

concerned that being in that

31:56

police car, having that police

31:56

car parked outside the church

31:59

could actually make me a target.

31:59

And and I don't think that the

32:03

likelihood is high. I think

32:03

that's, you know, a million to

32:06

one against anything ever

32:06

happening to me in that

32:09

scenario. But I'm a little bit

32:09

concerned about that. You know,

32:12

that's, that's a consideration,

32:12

because I'm just there to help

32:16

but somebody who has it in their

32:16

mind that the police are the

32:20

enemy and and that all police

32:20

are out to hurt them. They might

32:24

try to go hurt police

32:24

proactively, and and I could

32:28

potentially get caught up in

32:28

that, but I don't think that's a

32:31

likely scenario.

32:32

No, it's the negative

32:32

effect, I guess of tiring people

32:35

with the same brush, isn't it? Like you said you get one bad person in industry. We've had a

32:37

few local politicians here that

32:41

have been shot or attacked just

32:41

in their local constituency

32:44

during a meeting because

32:44

sometimes taken against the

32:46

whole party.

32:47

Yeah.

32:47

You mentioned there

32:47

about like the hospital having

32:49

chaplains as well, and so there

32:49

are obviously military

32:52

chaplains, and other areas that

32:52

have it, what do you think the

32:54

role of a chaplain adds to a

32:54

workplace?

32:57

Well, I would hope that

32:57

it would at its most simple

33:02

level, it would add a nother

33:02

layer of help, that that

33:07

everybody deals with, with loss

33:07

and grief and stress and, and

33:14

family relationship dysfunction.

33:14

And there's all kinds of those

33:18

pressures, and that if there was

33:18

a helper, who was in your

33:22

workplace and understood the

33:22

kind of work you do, and the

33:25

kind of schedule you have, and

33:25

the kind of stress that you

33:27

have, and that they were

33:27

conscientiously looking to see

33:32

how you were doing that, that

33:32

would get you into help quicker,

33:37

there's, it's just too common

33:37

that people don't seek out help

33:41

until they have to. They wait

33:41

until their whole life was

33:45

falling apart before they go to

33:45

counselling, or before they even

33:48

just talk to somebody. And so I

33:48

would hope that a chaplain in a

33:52

place of work, or hospital or

33:52

anywhere really, that that would

33:57

provide the opportunity. The

33:57

problem is that a lot of times

34:01

chaplains slip into a pattern of

34:01

only helping after the crisis. A

34:07

lot of hospital chaplains see

34:07

that, they would like to help

34:10

the nurses and the doctors, but

34:10

instead, they're only called to

34:13

help the person who's already

34:13

found out they have stage four

34:16

cancer, or the family who has

34:16

already lost a loved one. And

34:21

that's still a place to help and

34:21

chaplains want to help that way,

34:24

but but really, it would be

34:24

better if chaplains were used

34:27

proactively and would help

34:27

people before it's reached, you

34:32

know, a critical melting point,

34:32

you know, and and if they're

34:35

able to, to move those people

34:35

into a place where they could

34:38

seek help and identify problems

34:38

and and fix the problems before

34:43

they become unmanageable.

34:45

Does the title Chaplain

34:45

ever sort of prevent people

34:48

doing that? Do they think 'oh, I

34:48

have to have the same faith as

34:51

that person or else there's no point going to them'?

34:53

There's a lot of

34:53

misunderstanding others, because

34:57

the chaplain... There's people

34:57

listening into your podcast

35:00

right now that don't know what a

35:00

chaplain is, it's just not a

35:04

word in the vocabulary. And and

35:04

the only knowledge they have is

35:08

that it might have something to

35:08

do with religion. And and if

35:12

they're not religious, that's

35:12

probably off putting to them.

35:15

And so so yes, there there is

35:15

that barrier. But but really, a

35:20

chaplain is still a good word to

35:20

use for those helpers. And there

35:24

are chaplains who are not just

35:24

Christian, I mean, obviously

35:27

Christian chaplains have the

35:27

longest history. But but there

35:31

are chaplains who are Jewish and

35:31

Muslim and an atheist chaplains.

35:35

But they're there, they're

35:35

they're there to help people.

35:38

And the word 'Chaplain' comes

35:38

from the patron saint France,

35:43

Saint Martin of Tours, he was, I

35:43

believe, a Roman soldier who

35:47

took off his cape, which is

35:47

where the word 'Chaplain' comes

35:50

from, comes from the word

35:50

'cape'. And he took off his cape

35:54

to put around the shoulders of a

35:54

hurting person, there was a

35:58

woman or a child or somebody

35:58

that was that was in need. And

36:01

so he stopped being a soldier

36:01

and became a helper by putting

36:06

his cape around somebody to

36:06

comfort them. And, and that is

36:10

where chaplains began. And so so

36:10

a chaplain, anybody who can help

36:16

someone else, and they're in a

36:16

position to do it, I mean,

36:19

obviously, if you're drowning,

36:19

you're not the right person to

36:22

help someone else who's

36:22

drowning, right? But five years

36:25

from now, you might not be

36:25

drowning anymore, right? And so

36:28

you might have learned how to

36:28

swim well, and how to help that

36:31

other person, and you could be a

36:31

good helper. And so certainly,

36:36

like I said, Christianity has

36:36

produced a lot of Chaplains for

36:39

the military and, and for, for

36:39

law enforcement, and for kings

36:44

and queens and everybody else,

36:44

you know, we've done that for a

36:47

long time. But really, anybody

36:47

could come in and be an

36:50

effective chaplain, and help

36:50

people before they get to that

36:55

crisis point, and after.

36:57

Right. So if people are

36:57

listening, and they're in jobs,

37:01

where they're facing loss every

37:01

day, be it police work, or

37:04

medical work or anything, are

37:04

there like basic, practical

37:07

things that you would sort of

37:07

say are really key for helping

37:11

people do that in a healthy way?

37:13

Well, talking about it,

37:13

yes, yeah. There's, especially

37:18

with men, there is a reluctance

37:18

to be vulnerable. And so if you

37:23

admit that something's bothering

37:23

you, most men just their knee

37:28

jerk reaction is 'well I don't

37:28

want to admit that'. You need to

37:32

find a place where you can admit

37:32

that you need to find a place

37:36

where, maybe just with your

37:36

colleagues, you're saying, 'Boy,

37:39

that really bugged me, man, I

37:39

have been thinking about that

37:42

one event at work, that was

37:42

really traumatic, but it was

37:45

like three months ago, and I

37:45

think about it all the time.

37:48

I've even dreamed about it'. And

37:48

and being able to talk that out

37:51

is a fantastic first step. Not

37:51

everybody needs to go into

37:54

counselling, okay, not everybody

37:54

needs to to be on medication.

37:59

But boy, if we could just start

37:59

developing a healthy habit of

38:04

talking about it, and expressing

38:04

ourselves and getting that out

38:08

there, in many cases, that that

38:08

will be 90% of the of the battle

38:14

is just talking about it and

38:14

identifying it, realising I'm

38:17

not alone, realising that, that

38:17

other people struggle with this

38:21

too, I'm not broken or uniquely

38:21

unqualified to do my job just

38:26

because it bothers me. Getting

38:26

that out there and discussing

38:30

that is hugely helpful to

38:30

people. And so so that's just

38:35

the most obvious first step, and

38:35

like I said, I hope that

38:37

chaplains help facilitate that.

38:39

Okay, so I've got one more question for you. We're speaking about like sort of

38:41

police chaplains and sort of

38:43

work they do as a useful tool

38:43

for helping people and in this

38:46

case, the police specifically

38:46

for preparing for, or going

38:49

through, loss. So if I was to go

38:49

into my shed and pick out a tool

38:52

that represented police

38:52

chaplains, what kind of tool

38:55

would it be?

38:56

I want to suggest my

38:56

favourite tool my favourite tool

39:01

is a tree pruner. I don't know

39:01

if you know what that is? But

39:04

it's a it's a cutting tool,

39:04

sometimes it's like a chainsaw

39:08

or mechanical tool, sometimes

39:08

it's just a saw maybe a couple

39:12

of print cutting tools at the

39:12

end of a very long pole. Usually

39:15

a long telescoping pole. And my

39:15

dad taught me to take care of of

39:22

tall mature trees on our

39:22

property by taking the the pole

39:26

saw or the tree pruner, whatever

39:26

you want to call it, and going

39:30

out there and helping these

39:30

trees. Because trees aren't just

39:33

naturally healthy, they get

39:33

broken branches, they get

39:36

diseased branches, and a lot of

39:36

times it's hidden up in the

39:39

tree, you can't see it very

39:39

well, but it's dangerous to the

39:42

tree, it's dangerous to anybody

39:42

under the tree, the tree, if a

39:47

tree is going to be healthy, it

39:47

needs to be pruned. And so you

39:50

get out that long pole and you

39:50

reach up there and especially if

39:54

it's not if it's not motorised,

39:54

you've got to, you've got you've

39:57

got to work and saw and saw and

39:57

saw the end of this, you know,

40:00

10 or 15 foot pole, you know,

40:00

and cut that branch out that's

40:04

dead or damaged or diseased. And

40:04

and you have to watch yourself

40:08

because once it falls, you got

40:08

to jump out of the way before it

40:11

lands on you. But it's important

40:11

work to keep the tree healthy.

40:15

And so a lot of people have

40:15

beautiful, tall, mature trees on

40:19

their property, but they don't

40:19

do anything to take care of it,

40:21

they ignore the problem. And so

40:21

I feel like just like someone

40:26

who is pruning a tree, a

40:26

chaplain goes in and identifies

40:29

problems that we don't see or

40:29

that we don't pay attention to,

40:32

they're a little bit out of

40:32

sight, hopefully, they're still

40:35

small problems, and we can go in

40:35

and help that problem, cut out

40:40

that dead limb before it becomes

40:40

a problem before a gust of wind

40:43

blows it out of the tree and it

40:43

lands on somebody or something.

40:46

That's such an important part of

40:46

taking care of trees. And so so

40:51

naturally, I feel like chaplains, that's what we are to.

40:55

I love that new tool so

40:55

much. And what a great analogy

40:57

for supporting police officers

40:57

in their work, enabling them to

41:00

be strong and healthy with the

41:00

important roles that they're

41:03

taking on. If you want to find out more

41:04

about Jared, check out his

41:07

podcast 'Hey, Chaplain!', and

41:07

I'll put a link in the show

41:09

notes. And thank you to all of those

41:10

who are putting their life on

41:13

the line to protect us. You are

41:13

still greatly appreciated for

41:16

the work you do and the

41:16

situations you face. And I'm so

41:19

pleased there are people like

41:19

Jared out there willing to try

41:22

and support people in these

41:22

roles, giving up their time,

41:25

mostly for free, just to help

41:25

others.

41:28

Thank you for listening to The

41:28

Silent Way podcast. If you've

41:30

got a subject you'd like me to

41:30

chat to an expert on, please get

41:33

in touch via social media or the

41:33

website or on email

41:36

[email protected]. And

41:36

let's chat...