0:00

The views and opinions expressed in this

0:02

program are those of the speakers and

0:05

do not necessarily reflect the opinions

0:07

or positions of anyone at

0:09

Innovative Sims Solutions or our

0:11

sponsors . This podcast

0:14

is sponsored by Echo Healthcare . Echo

0:16

Healthcare is a leading provider of hyper

0:19

realistic medical simulation solutions

0:21

, immersive virtual learning

0:23

environments and educational content

0:26

, with a focus on improving patient

0:28

safety and lives . Echo

0:30

Healthcare is now offering 7

0:33

Sigma Intubation and Airway Management

0:35

task trainers under their robust

0:37

product portfolio . Contact

0:40

Echo Healthcare today for any

0:42

of your simulation training needs

0:45

. Thanks

0:47

to Echo Healthcare for sponsoring this

0:49

week's podcast . Contact

0:52

Echo Healthcare to find out more about

0:54

their new 7 Sigma Intubation

0:56

and Airway Management Task Trainers

0:58

. Welcome

1:01

to The Sim Cafe , a

1:03

podcast produced by the team at

1:05

Innovative Sim Solutions , edited

1:08

by Shelly Houser . Join

1:11

our host , Deb Tauber , and

1:13

co-host Jerrod Jeffries as

1:15

they sit down with subject matter experts

1:18

from across the globe to

1:20

reimagine clinical education

1:22

and the use of simulation

1:24

. So pour

1:26

yourself a cup of relaxation , sit

1:29

back , tune in and

1:32

learn something new from The Sim

1:34

Cafe .

1:43

Welcome to another episode of The Sim Cafe

1:45

. Thank you for joining

1:47

us and , Je hello

1:49

, how's everything

1:52

for you today ?

1:53

We got another guest over from Europe

1:56

so I'm excited to hear about

1:58

his journey , but I'll let you

2:00

give a proud introduction of who

2:02

we have Deb .

2:03

Thank you so much . And today we have

2:05

Willem Van Meurs , and

2:08

he came from the University of Florida

2:10

in Porto and in

2:12

close collaboration with CAE Healthcare

2:15

, so we're very excited to have

2:17

the opportunity to speak with him and learn about

2:19

his journey . So with that

2:21

, earlier you said we may call

2:23

you Willem , so thank you . Why

2:26

don't you share your journey

2:29

, the path that led you into the

2:31

world of medical simulation ?

2:33

Okay , well , thank you so much for

2:35

having me and I think you're doing an excellent job

2:38

on sharing , creating accessible

2:40

information for a broad

2:42

and growing community of simulationists

2:45

. So my start

2:47

in this realm and I call it modeling

2:49

and simulation is really

2:52

early 1986 , which is

2:54

just after the French Revolution , I believe

2:56

. So I was doing a research

2:58

project for the Eindhoven University of Technology

3:01

and my electrical engineering studies

3:03

there and I looked at what's called

3:05

the respiratory sinus arrhythmia and

3:09

after that I did a PhD

3:12

in control engineering in Toulouse in France

3:14

, working on a heart-lung machine , and

3:17

that enabled me to

3:19

say yes to a request from

3:21

the University of Florida when they were looking

3:23

for somebody who could model

3:26

the cardiovascular and respiratory systems

3:30

of the alpha and anesthesia simulator they had

3:32

they were designing . So in 1992

3:35

, I moved to Gainesville , Florida

3:37

, and at the time

3:40

the medical students

3:42

were training on dogs and sheep still

3:44

, and anesthesia residents were training

3:46

on real patients on us , and

3:48

the plan and the admission there

3:51

was to create at the time was

3:53

called the Gainesville Anesthesia Simulator . It's

3:55

now called the Human Patient Simulator

3:57

, which was a simulator

3:59

that was breathing real gases , real oxygen

4:02

, real CO2 , real anesthetic gases and

4:04

that had a number of models of human physiology

4:07

to make it react to what

4:09

you did to it . But we did develop a

4:11

few other simulators there , a

4:14

pediatric simulator and a baby simulator

4:16

. And then , after six years in Gainesville

4:19

, my French wife and

4:21

I and by then our two American

4:23

children moved back to

4:25

Europe and we moved to Porto and

4:28

at the University of Porto I set up a

4:31

team of obstetricians and mathematicians

4:33

that designed the delivery

4:35

simulator , and I felt I owed

4:37

that to my dad

4:39

, who was an obstetrician , and that was

4:41

a successful project . It took

4:43

a while to get it to market , but

4:46

the Lucina Childbirth

4:48

Simulator is now also commercialized

4:50

by CAE Healthcare

4:52

. In two phases I moved

4:54

back to the French Pyrenees , which is

4:56

where my wife's from , and

4:59

I now live in a small farm

5:01

on the French side of the Pyrenees with

5:04

my wife and donkey . Our kids

5:06

are in Paris . But then

5:08

I did play a role in the

5:10

SESAM Society for

5:12

a while and right now my

5:14

most important research with the

5:16

University in the Netherlands is on what we call

5:19

explanatory models . So it's

5:21

a visualization of complex

5:23

underlying physiology to help

5:26

acute care physicians think

5:28

in very critical situations

5:30

. So that's in a nutshell my

5:33

path , my 36

5:35

or seven years long path

5:37

through simulation .

5:39

I think that's already a mic drop , milen , that's

5:42

just like OK , whoa , that's

5:45

pretty incredible . I'm looking at Deb's

5:47

face . You got to close your mouth

5:49

a little . It's been open for too long , thank

5:53

you . Where to start . I

5:55

mean one is , I think , the HPS . The

5:58

HPS , when it was released , was

6:00

groundbreaking in regards

6:02

to the with an ithotis and

6:04

pushing CO2 and

6:06

being able to have that level

6:09

of fidelity . One how long did

6:11

that research and development take ? And

6:13

two once it kind of went to market , what

6:15

were you feeling ?

6:16

Well , the research and development

6:18

took about six years , so not all

6:21

that long , and I

6:24

had to . There were a few very

6:26

nice moments , of course , in the development

6:28

of the simulator . One

6:30

was when I got a very around 1993

6:34

, I believe 30 years ago I

6:36

got a very worried call from an engineer

6:38

who was demonstrating the

6:41

simulator in failed Colorado and he said

6:43

Willem , I'm running

6:45

the COPD patient and

6:47

he's hyperventilating like crazy

6:49

. So what's going on ? I said Well , Ron , what

6:51

altitude are you at ? And it

6:53

turned out the simulator had detected

6:56

the lack of oxygen

6:58

in high altitude and

7:00

so we just had to change one parameter

7:02

so that it would adapt to

7:04

that altitude and

7:06

then we were on the road again . So that was a nice

7:09

, certainly a nice moment in

7:12

our experience there . I also

7:14

remember a little bit later when

7:16

the CAE's predecessor

7:18

, METI , Medical Education Technologies , had

7:20

just built a new plant and

7:24

I was working there with a colleague and

7:26

I left the plant through the back door , worked

7:29

around the plant to get my rental car up front

7:31

and I

7:33

came past the loading dock and there was a truck

7:36

with parts and there was space for

7:38

another truck that was shipping completed

7:41

simulators . And just

7:43

eight years before that those

7:45

were just ideas of a bunch of people sitting around the table

7:48

in Gainesville , florida . So

7:50

there's been lots of interesting moments . I

7:53

can think of EER the television

7:55

series EER using our simulator

7:58

in one of their sequences , newsweek doing a

8:00

special on the simulator . So

8:02

it's been a great ride . And now I'm

8:04

interviewed . Are you guys come on

8:06

?

8:07

Well , it's the gift that keeps on giving .

8:12

I mean , you are one of the pioneers of simulation

8:14

, because when it comes to scaling this industry , especially when

8:16

you started it from modeling and simulation I

8:19

do like how you also put it

8:21

that way . In 86

8:23

, there were people doing simulation , but it

8:25

was very hard to connect the dots , and obviously

8:28

through internet it's much easier

8:30

and within healthcare organizations we're then

8:32

able to then connect even more to the organizations

8:35

. We're then able to then connect even further

8:37

by Congresses and Congresses and memberships

8:39

, but also through

8:42

other types of media such

8:44

as print , digital and so on , with

8:46

what we're doing . But I do know that there's

8:48

also something that you've put into

8:50

print . That's called the Dahls Engineering Book

8:52

. I want to touch on that a little bit

8:54

if you can tell our listeners something about it

8:57

We'd be happy to .

8:58

That's one of so . My major talent

9:00

is , I believe , is to get myself in trouble

9:03

, and the Dahls engineer was a good

9:05

example of that . So

9:07

I was planning to write

9:09

two books , but they both and

9:11

I'm still planning on those but they had co-authors

9:13

and they weren't ready . So I

9:15

had started to write down just a little

9:18

bit about my convoluted

9:20

life , mostly for my children , because they

9:22

hear some stories but it's complicated

9:24

. So , and then I ran into

9:26

an old friend from New Orleans

9:28

and I hadn't seen

9:30

her in 34 years and

9:33

she was writing her own autobiography

9:36

, and so I told her about the two chapters

9:38

I had at the time and so I talked

9:40

about that and she encouraged me

9:42

to keep on writing . And I

9:44

talked to Pier

9:47

Luigi and Grazia , whom you've

9:49

interviewed , and at the time

9:51

I was writing articles I'm

9:53

still writing articles for the magazine Simzine

9:55

and he said oh , that's nice , send me a chapter

9:58

. So I did , and a

10:00

week later we had a verbal

10:02

agreement on a short autobiography

10:05

which was about , well

10:08

, mostly about my life and

10:10

complicated path through

10:13

four continents

10:15

and 14 cities and villages and so

10:18

on , but also about 30 years in

10:20

medical simulation . So , and that book

10:22

was released at the most

10:25

recent SESAM conference . So

10:27

it's and the reason it's called the Dahls

10:29

Engineer is that for

10:32

a while I lived in two

10:34

places in my village where my

10:36

wife and children lived and the Pyrenees , and

10:38

I still had the research team , my research

10:41

team in Porto that developed the delivery

10:43

simulator . So I had a small house in Vila

10:45

Novodegaia , which is on the other side

10:47

of the river from Porto , and

10:50

my neighbors there had seen

10:52

me on television talking about the

10:54

delivery simulator and other simulators

10:56

and so they called me who engineered

10:59

those bonekos in Portuguese

11:01

, which means the Dolls Engineer . So

11:03

we , Pier Luigi , and I thought that was

11:06

a nice potential

11:08

title for the book . So , yeah

11:10

, there's a . It was . It was

11:12

very enjoyable to write it from a

11:15

personal point of view , but it

11:17

was also nice to describe

11:19

in an informal way some

11:21

of this surprising history

11:24

of yeah , no longer training

11:26

on animals and real patients . That's what it

11:28

was about for me .

11:30

I want to pick up a copy of the book and I want you to

11:32

sign it . But

11:35

if we , we can include that link

11:37

in the show notes . So if people do want to purchase

11:39

it , that's through where now For

11:41

?

11:42

now , because we're talking the publisher

11:44

, which is the same publisher as for Simzine

11:46

, so it's called Simedita , is

11:49

talking to Amazon , et cetera , but for

11:51

now it's the publisher is the only site

11:53

that sells it . So well , we'll

11:55

, we'll put it . If you can put a link , that would

11:57

be great .

11:57

Yeah certainly yeah .

12:00

Perfect .

12:00

Will you be at IMSH ?

12:03

I may . I don't cross

12:06

the ocean that often anymore for

12:08

a number of reasons , so I

12:11

don't know yet . I will

12:13

be visiting in October . I

12:15

will be in North Carolina and I will actually

12:17

be visiting another piece

12:19

of simulation history . So Mike

12:21

Bernstein , who took

12:23

over METI and who then sold it

12:25

to CAE healthcare , is

12:28

a good friend and he has just moved to

12:30

North Carolina and I'm going to visit him

12:32

. So we'll have a lot to talk about . But I'm

12:34

still not sure about IMSH .

12:37

Okay , all right . Why don't

12:39

you tell us a little bit more about Simzine

12:41

, the magazine , the ?

12:43

Yeah , I'm very glad to do that . That was

12:45

I got involved with Simzine

12:48

, I think around the

12:50

previous SESAM

12:52

conference , in which was

12:54

in Seville , the first conference

12:56

after COVID , so it was a very exciting

12:59

European conference and and

13:01

I like Pier Luigi and we liked each other

13:03

right away and he's

13:05

the editor-in-chief of Simzine . The

13:08

two aspects I like most about Simzine

13:11

are maybe three , but it definitely

13:13

two is that it's Multilingual

13:16

. So it's it's in English , but

13:19

it also has Italian and Spanish versions

13:21

. All all the articles are translated in

13:24

between those languages and

13:26

it has both a paper and an electronic

13:28

version . So on the paper version you

13:30

get , obviously you get just one language

13:32

, but there's always a QR code if

13:35

you don't read the other language . So

13:37

if I try really hard , I

13:39

can read Italian if it's about simulation

13:41

, but but I , yeah , I

13:44

can't read English and Spanish without

13:46

without too much effort . So

13:48

those I like those two aspects , the Multilingual

13:51

aspect and and the fact that it's

13:53

both on paper and then in

13:55

the electronic format , and it

13:57

also gives quite a bit of attention to technology

14:00

, which had a little bit disappeared from

14:02

the programs of the of the international conferences

14:05

, and I don't mean obviously

14:07

clinical aspects and educational aspects are

14:09

the most important aspects in our domain , but

14:12

the the tools , the technology , software

14:15

is important as well , so there's room

14:17

for that . So I'm very happy to

14:19

To participate in Simzine

14:22

, and just today . The next issue

14:24

is number 10 is

14:26

going to press today and

14:28

I interviewed one of my former Portuguese

14:31

students , so In Portuguese , so

14:33

we added a language to the journal . So

14:35

we're very happy about that . Not

14:37

so much for the Portuguese people , because they

14:39

, most of them , read and and

14:41

write English , but of course , brazil

14:43

is a big country and

14:46

giving people Well , like

14:48

people in Italy and Spain and

14:50

and Brazil access to important

14:52

information about simulation is very important

14:54

. So , and not all of these people read

14:57

English . So I'm very happy with this

14:59

journey , I'm very glad to be able

15:01

to contribute to it .

15:03

Thank you .

15:04

I think I saw

15:06

you at CSAM this year because I was

15:08

also at the conference . Unfortunately didn't know each other

15:10

then , but can you tell

15:12

us about the conferences here , how it was received

15:14

in 23 or how you've seen it

15:16

developed throughout the years ?

15:18

Well , that's what I'm sure interview

15:20

, because I was too busy Inventing

15:24

and raising my first child

15:26

to go to the first CSAM conference . But I

15:28

think I've been to all CSAM conferences since

15:31

and next year is , I

15:33

believe , conference number 30 or

15:35

29 , and the society exists

15:37

, has existed for for for

15:41

30 years . So

15:43

what I liked

15:45

about the last conference

15:48

in Lisbon was , of

15:50

course , well , we had one conference

15:52

before , after COVID . I mentioned the civil

15:54

conference , which was was a blast being

15:57

being able to go to a conference again and

15:59

face-to-face interaction and and

16:01

the numbers kept rising

16:04

and and Lisbon was was very much

16:06

a success and One of

16:08

the factors of success of

16:10

the Lisbon conference , I think , was there was there

16:12

. Well , there's a very good chair

16:14

of the scientific chair of the conference

16:17

, Christina Gias Navarro

16:19

, and she works in close

16:21

collaboration with the editor in chief

16:23

of the scientific journal . So Gabe Reedy

16:26

is the editor in chief of advances

16:28

in simulation , which is the scientific journal

16:30

, open access scientific journal of

16:32

CSAM , and so , yeah

16:35

, a lot of into too much very

16:38

interesting conference . I couldn't , couldn't

16:40

go to all the workshops it's , but

16:42

just what I can do is just give

16:45

you a brief Idea

16:47

of the content . I worked with lots of different

16:50

teams . So so the three presentations I

16:52

gave I think do reflect

16:54

the diversity of the conference . I

16:56

did give a workshop with a young in Italian

16:59

investigator , three young

17:01

in tell Italian investigators , on

17:03

Selecting the best simulator

17:05

for your job , and we talked about simulation technology

17:08

and virtual reality in mannequin based

17:10

technology Etc . So there was kind

17:12

of a practical workshop . I presented

17:14

a very theoretical paper on

17:16

a new asset-based balance model for

17:19

general use in acute care simulators

17:21

, together with a group from the Netherlands . And then

17:24

I presented a paper on

17:26

Space medicine and I've

17:29

worked with investigators on the

17:31

Australian space medicine program

17:33

and Because

17:35

the Australians once won

17:37

commercial space flight , for example

17:40

the two-hour flight between Sydney and London

17:42

and you can do that through

17:44

space . But the challenge there

17:46

is not technical Space tourism already

17:48

does that but the challenge is medical . You

17:50

put a young astronaut in a rocket and

17:53

he or she will come out , you , you

17:55

put me in a rocket and and

17:57

there's a big question mark at the

17:59

at the end . So we're using modeling

18:01

and simulation to Well

18:04

, my one of my colleagues , like Swan loan

18:06

and in now back in the Netherlands

18:08

, uses the concept of medical

18:10

Digital twins to

18:12

to simulate the patient and submit the

18:15

patient , a traveler , and the potential traveler

18:17

To the conditions of

18:19

commercial space flight . So I gave a

18:21

presentation on that . So very stimulating

18:23

, very broad conference .

18:26

That's cross-spectrum . I think this is the first

18:28

time I've heard a something with space

18:30

which I , you know I geek

18:32

out on the simulation technician side . The

18:34

space thing is like wait what ? Of course

18:36

I don't have time to go go much into that given

18:39

your background , but I'll follow up on that another

18:41

pod in the future . You know , I think

18:43

, getting back , like just the , the

18:46

atmosphere within Lisbon was so

18:48

many people were probably , you

18:50

know they were very excited , of course , to connect with people

18:52

and I remember there was so much

18:54

connection that was happening , that

18:56

was so great to see again and it's been kind

18:59

of far and in between for a few years

19:01

, so it's wonderful to see .

19:03

Yeah , thank you for your contributions . Now , Willem

19:05

, how did you enjoy your role as

19:07

president of ?

19:10

So well , I enjoyed

19:13

teaching and I love R&D

19:15

, and being a SESAM

19:17

president was more of a okay

19:19

, well , this needs to be done , Somebody needs to do

19:22

it . But I think I got involved

19:24

in 2003 or four or so and

19:26

spent six years on the executive

19:28

committee in two years as a president

19:30

. But in 2003

19:32

, it was kind of urgent

19:34

because we had 40 paying

19:38

members registrants . So

19:40

we needed to do something or the society

19:42

would disappear . And over the years , the

19:44

last conference I was involved with in

19:46

that period had 400 paying

19:50

registrants in Copenhagen

19:52

in Denmark . So , yeah

19:55

, it was a successful ride and

19:58

of course , that was the trend of the time . The IMSH

20:00

increased numbers as well . But

20:03

it was a bit of a challenging time and

20:05

we really needed to be efficient

20:09

to make sure the society survived . And

20:11

we did , and by now we have 1100 or 1200

20:14

registrants . So I think

20:16

we're certainly out of the woods in those

20:18

organizational terms .

20:20

And I mean seeing that growth throughout

20:23

the years and , of course , there's nothing consistent . There's

20:26

this graph that goes up and down and sideways

20:28

and turns over . I think there's

20:30

a I don't want to say a refound , but there's

20:33

a focus within healthcare simulation

20:35

, as we can see these numbers growing across the board

20:37

with all healthcare organizations . But

20:40

in order to continue to increase that simulation

20:42

footprint in Europe , what would you recommend

20:44

or where do you see certain trends going ?

20:48

I'm sorry to say that , but I

20:51

don't know , it's been a while

20:53

. I mean , I left the Netherlands in 1985

20:55

, so I don't really think in a national scale and

20:58

I don't think that much at a European scale

21:00

either . What I would like to

21:02

contribute , if I may turn

21:04

the question that way , is

21:07

that I would like for simulation worldwide

21:09

to become more visual and

21:12

to show more of what

21:14

goes on inside the patient and anatomically

21:17

and physiologically , and we've

21:19

been working on that in the context

21:21

of what we call explanatory models and

21:23

the other big thing . And that's , I believe

21:26

, a holy grail for a lot of

21:28

simulationists . And again , it doesn't really

21:30

matter which country or which continent

21:32

you are on . We'd like to get

21:34

objective performance indices and

21:37

we can obtain those . For example

21:39

, if we look at myocardial

21:41

perfusion and oxygenation

21:43

or cerebral perfusion and oxygenation , and

21:46

if you have a model-driven simulator

21:49

, those indicators are available and

21:51

we don't use them and we

21:53

would be able to tell how a

21:55

simulated patient's brain or heart

21:57

would have been doing . And maybe later on we'll look

21:59

at the kidneys etc . But

22:01

if we start with the vital organs , we

22:03

could provide objective

22:05

performance indices and I

22:07

really think that that would affect the simulation

22:10

around the world and , if

22:12

I do , you make me think about Europe

22:14

. So Europe's challenge and

22:17

opportunity is its diversity . I

22:19

mean we have 28 countries , we

22:21

all speak different languages and

22:24

we have all different healthcare systems . So

22:26

huge challenges but also huge opportunities

22:28

. And we can experiment

22:30

something in Denmark and then , if it works , apply

22:33

it in Germany and then all

22:35

over the European Union . So there's

22:37

yeah , it's quite

22:40

a challenge , and if we meet those challenges

22:42

we create a lot of new things

22:44

in Europe . But again , I

22:46

don't think we're SESM definitely

22:49

is not thinking just Europe . It's

22:51

by origin in European society

22:53

. We get people from the

22:55

Arab world , from Australia

22:57

, from the US , so it's a

23:00

Europe-centered international conference .

23:02

That's how I look at it , yeah

23:04

, and I think it's great . I mean hearing more visual

23:07

cues . I think trying

23:09

new things is always going to be important , because

23:12

we can't just keep doing things the way we were . I

23:14

really like that you would highlight that aspect

23:17

, doing something a little differently . So

23:19

thank you .

23:20

And think about it . My

23:23

maternal grandmother was one of the

23:25

first female radiologists in the Netherlands and

23:29

being able to , I told

23:31

the other kids in school that my grandmother

23:33

looked through people and they didn't believe me , but

23:35

it was true . And being

23:38

able to look inside people

23:40

without opening them up has

23:42

totally changed healthcare . And

23:45

I think we could do a similar change

23:48

in simulation as well , and there

23:50

are already some simulators out

23:52

there that do that that look at anatomy

23:55

and physiology using augmented reality

23:57

, and I just would like to

23:59

see more of that , and I think it will change

24:02

the mental

24:04

models that the healthcare providers have if

24:06

they really have a clear picture of what's

24:09

going on inside their patients .

24:12

Yeah , I think the Simzane magazine

24:15

, being digital as

24:17

well as on paper , is also

24:19

aiding to spread the word

24:21

, and congratulations on your 10th

24:23

episode this week .

24:26

Yeah , thank you . It's going to the

24:28

printer today . I

24:30

had somebody on email earlier

24:33

to provide some

24:35

corrections .

24:36

Are there any parting words that you'd like

24:38

our listeners to hear from you ?

24:41

So I feel a bit sorry that you have to listen

24:43

to the fossil

24:45

that I am in this field , but

24:49

it's certainly despite that , it's still

24:51

a young field and it needs growth

24:53

and maturing . So I would

24:55

encourage you to keep the good work

24:57

coming , and that's true for the same cafe

25:00

as well . So thank you .

25:02

Well , thank you for your contributions , people

25:04

like you and where we

25:07

need to pass on that knowledge that you've accumulated

25:10

for decades . And

25:12

I don't want to say it's a shortcut , but it's

25:14

the same thing as a good book , right , you

25:16

can go through the lessons yourself and learn it

25:18

the hard way over years , or you can read a book

25:20

and shave off a couple of years . But

25:22

I think , with the world of simulation , because

25:24

of what path you've had to forge , as

25:27

well as many others , but there's so

25:29

many ways that we can say , ok

25:31

, we know this doesn't work , because here's the data . And

25:34

if we're able to show the data based off what you've

25:36

already presented and accomplished , then we're

25:39

able to actually focus our time , energy , resources

25:41

on what really matters .

25:43

That's a great observation , and the inventions

25:46

and the innovation is important , but documenting

25:48

the data is probably just as

25:50

important .

25:52

Definitely , so thank you .

25:54

Yes , it is very , very important to

25:56

make sure that we learn

25:59

from different sources and learn the

26:01

origins . I'm really

26:04

fascinated by your story . I

26:06

can't even imagine what it must have been like

26:08

to be one of those original five coming

26:11

up with the first human patient simulator

26:13

.

26:15

Well , read my book . Yeah

26:20

, yeah , it's mostly

26:22

stories indeed , and I do

26:24

think that we also live by those

26:26

. And then , of course , we need the scientific

26:29

journals and the scientific books as well , but

26:31

a lot of what we do is

26:34

mostly easily transmitted by stories

26:36

.

26:37

Yes , all right . Well , thank

26:40

you , and to you guys Good evening

26:42

, and to the rest

26:44

of our guests Good morning , Good afternoon

26:46

, wherever you're at . Thank you

26:48

and happy simulating

26:50

.

26:52

Thanks to Echo Healthcare for sponsoring this

26:55

week's podcast . Contact

26:57

Echo Healthcare to find out more about

26:59

their new seven Sigma intubation

27:02

and airway management task trainers

27:04

. Thanks

27:13

for joining us here at The Sim Cafe

27:15

. We hope you enjoyed . Visit

27:18

us at www . innovativesimsolutions . com

27:23

and be sure to hit that like

27:25

and subscribe button so you never

27:27

miss an episode . Innovative

27:30

Sim Solutions is your one

27:32

stop shop for your simulation

27:34

needs . A turnkey solution

27:37

.