0:49

Welcome everyone to the Simple Grace Podcast

0:51

again . My name is Pastor Sean . I'm

0:53

here every time with you and

0:56

I'm so excited today to be able

0:58

to bring in my brother , mike

1:00

Q Daniel , mike

1:02

is an amazing pastor and

1:04

grace teacher . You're

1:06

down in Texas , right ? Yeah , yeah , just

1:08

north of San Antonio .

1:10

Okay , so did you see the eclipse just yesterday

1:13

I did . Actually we had a huge clan

1:15

of my wife's family that came in . We all

1:17

ran the half marathon . They had a big half

1:19

marathon event for the eclipse and

1:21

so we ran that and then laid around watching

1:23

the the eclipse it

1:26

was pretty cloudy but you could still see some

1:28

. It was incredible went dark in the middle of the

1:30

afternoon . I thought of the biblical reference

1:32

of you know , he , the whole

1:35

world went dark and then he gave

1:37

up his spirit . It was like that's what struck

1:39

me .

1:40

That's incredible . So just really

1:42

funny story . So yesterday I had three meetings

1:44

back to back at this coffee shop . The third

1:47

meeting was arranged with a guy

1:49

. It was from a pastor who I'd met before and

1:51

he introduced me to this guy from India

1:53

who lives really close to me and

1:56

his name was Sonny . So I'll

1:58

always remember that I met Sonny on

2:00

the day of the eclipse . I

2:03

just think that's hilarious .

2:04

So there you go .

2:05

That's awesome , all right . Well

2:07

, I'm just going to start us out by

2:09

reading a verse . Ephesians 2.10

2:12

says we are His workmanship

2:14

, created in Christ Jesus for good

2:17

works , which God prepared

2:19

beforehand that we should walk

2:21

in them . And I love that

2:23

verse because so

2:25

many people think that good works produce a

2:27

spiritual life , but

2:29

God actually teaches us it's the other way

2:31

around . A spiritual life

2:34

and a relationship with God is

2:36

what produces good works , and good

2:38

works are the plan . I mean God wants

2:40

us to do good works , but it's

2:42

through an abiding relationship

2:45

with Christ that his fruit

2:47

is born in our life . I was

2:49

also reading this book yesterday

2:51

. Have you read this book ? It's

2:54

called the

2:56

Father we Never Knew by

2:59

. Phil , by Phil

3:01

. What's his name ? He's

3:05

from Ireland , anyway , oh

3:07

gosh , it's so , so , so

3:09

good . Oh

3:18

gosh , uh , it's so , so , so good . Um , philum doherty and uh , what amazing book about . About god , uh

3:20

, about the new covenant of grace , and um , I forgot what I was bringing it up

3:22

for . But hey , everyone , that's my book recommendation

3:24

. I just started a new segment of our podcast

3:27

book recommendation of the week , and

3:29

that is the father we never knew , by Phil

3:31

him .

3:38

Philum Doherty . Yeah , and Philum Doherty is well-known grace-based uh teacher . I have

3:40

not read that book but , um , you know , I think I think

3:42

Philum Timms to focus a

3:44

lot on , uh , what

3:46

I focus on in in part , which is sort

3:49

of the relational paradigm

3:52

of our walk in Christ

3:54

, and John

3:57

Lynch and I were talking this morning about how

3:59

we often mistake Christianity

4:01

for theology , when really it's relationship

4:04

. The fabric of our life

4:06

is not theological

4:08

and it's not behavioral , it's relational

4:11

, and so that's what our life is , it's

4:13

the construct , it's what our life is actually

4:15

made of , is relationship

4:17

. And so if our relationship is informed

4:20

by the sufficiency of Christ

4:22

, by his finished work , by our identity from

4:24

him , by who we are

4:27

and what we have , then we're not striving

4:29

for things that we've already got

4:31

. We're not trying to be the cause or fix

4:33

of anything . We're instead walking

4:35

in a relationship with Christ , in

4:38

availability instead of agenda

4:40

for whatever he wants to do in and through us . So

4:42

the works to the verse that you were talking about , the

4:44

works that we're walking in with him

4:46

, right , he prepared from the foundation of the world that we

4:49

would walk in them , those works

4:51

, well , he's created us to walk

4:53

in those , to know Christ

4:55

in them and as we know him uniquely

4:58

, we can make him known in a way that , frankly

5:01

, no one else can know him apart from us . So you

5:03

, sean , can make God known in

5:05

a way no one else can know him except

5:08

through you . That's the works he's prepared

5:10

for you to do . They're unique to you

5:12

because you are a unique expression

5:14

of Christ's life in you .

5:16

Yeah , and that relationship

5:18

. I just actually taught

5:21

last night for

5:23

several hours this group in India

5:25

that I'm teaching these 20 pastors in India and

5:28

the topic we were teaching was relationship

5:31

, that the new covenant is all about

5:33

relationship . So I literally just said the verse

5:35

I read was from my kind of lesson

5:39

. And then I have all these other verses

5:41

just like flowing through my head right now

5:43

of the relational covenant

5:46

that we're given with God and

5:49

the highlight , I think , for me

5:51

, what the spirit kind of brought out yesterday , was

5:53

that that relationship is

5:56

so based on love , it's

5:59

so much love . God's

6:01

love is the foundation

6:03

of this relationship . His love for us and

6:06

our experience of that love

6:08

and the revelation of that love in

6:10

our hearts is what starts to

6:12

smell to the world Like

6:15

when I believe that I'm loved . The aroma

6:18

of Christ in me becomes

6:20

just a witness to the world

6:23

. It changes everything when

6:25

I believe that I'm loved and it changes

6:27

what good works are , what good works look

6:29

like . Because one of the questions

6:31

that the pastors asked me was okay

6:34

, well , how

6:36

do I , how do I do good works

6:39

, how do I love

6:41

my enemies ? Because

6:44

it seems like I have to try hard to love

6:46

them , and

6:48

I just pointed out to him . I said if

6:50

you're trying to love , it's

6:53

not love . Yet Jesus doesn't

6:55

try to love you . He just is

6:57

love because it's his identity . And

7:00

so the more we ask the question what do

7:02

I do ? We're off track

7:04

of what has Christ

7:07

done to me and what identity

7:09

has he given me that has

7:11

you know ? His love for me is

7:13

now my identity . Right

7:16

, I am loved and so I will

7:18

love because I am loved , right

7:21

.

7:21

Yeah , there's kind of a misnomer

7:25

when we talk about good works that we do

7:27

. The works that God does are

7:29

always good , right , everything that God does is

7:31

good . Every good and perfect gift , james says

7:33

, comes down from the Father of light . So I would say that everything

7:36

from God is good , and everything that's good is

7:38

, in fact , from God . There's no good apart from him

7:40

, and so the works that he's

7:42

prepared for us to do aren't really things

7:45

that are good . We're not out there trying to do good

7:47

things . He's

7:49

doing what only he can , and we're getting to participate

7:52

with him . So it

7:54

may or may not feel good , what it is is

7:56

righteous because it's from God . What it

7:58

is is loving because

8:01

it's from God . What it is is fruitful

8:03

of the relationship that we have

8:05

by grace with the Father , and so he's

8:07

producing life through

8:09

us , and the result is his

8:12

character lived out by

8:14

us . And so you're absolutely right , we're

8:16

not trying to be good

8:18

. What we are wanting

8:20

to do is be willing

8:23

to be available , and that's where

8:25

people stumble . They're like what are the good things

8:27

I need to do ? Jesus said well , the good works

8:29

that God requires to believe me , believe

8:32

in me , believe , put

8:34

your hope in believe upon

8:36

me . That's the work that the

8:38

Father has for you . So , out of John

8:40

, six , so we get

8:42

to participate

8:45

with him and the only the choice

8:47

of faith is not what I do for God . The

8:49

choice of faith is my being available for

8:51

what he wants to do through me , and

8:53

sometimes that's going to feel good

8:56

or look good , and sometimes it's not going

8:58

to feel good and sometimes it's not going

9:00

to look very good . But that's

9:02

not our goal . We're not trying

9:05

to be anything . We're believing

9:07

what he has made us and who

9:09

we are in him and available because

9:11

of that . What

9:14

he has made us and who we are in him , and available

9:16

because of that , that needlessness , by grace . Instead of living out of what we need , our

9:18

agenda for the circumstance or the relationships

9:20

or the things around us , we're living

9:23

out of the fullness of Christ

9:25

for whatever he wants to do through us , and

9:27

it changes the very economy of our life

9:29

. Love is the natural result

9:31

and it changes the very economy of our life . Love is the natural

9:33

result . Kindness is the natural result of operating in

9:35

a grace economy . Grace

9:37

isn't what God gives us . Grace

9:46

is how we live with him , as we depend upon him by faith to do what only he can through us . I think

9:48

we often think faith is what God's going to do for us , or what we're going to do for

9:50

God , for what we want from him , and

9:52

faith is just our availability to him

9:54

out of our trust of him . So there's

9:56

a willingness factor , but

9:59

if we're willing , he's able . We're never

10:01

meant to be the one that's able . We can

10:03

never be the one who's the

10:05

cause or fix of the Christian life . We

10:07

get to be dependent by choice

10:09

on him , who is sufficient

10:11

through us . We're never trying to get better at the Christian

10:13

life , we're just knowing Jesus , who

10:15

is life .

10:19

Amen , just like I would say .

10:22

Of course , of course .

10:24

All right . Well , I want to kind of dive

10:27

in a little bit to you

10:29

and who you are and how you became

10:31

who you are . A

10:35

little bit to you and who you are and how you became who you are . And so would

10:37

you just take us on the story of where you came from and what

10:39

that looked like , what , maybe what

10:41

your view of God was

10:43

as you were young and everyone

10:45

, I think , transitions from

10:47

a legalistic view

10:50

of God to a more grace-centered

10:52

view of God . Or maybe you just were

10:54

born full of grace .

10:55

Who knows , let's see .

10:56

Why don't you tell me the story and I'll stop

10:58

making assumptions ?

11:01

Sure , yeah . Well , I don't know how much time you

11:03

have , but I was born

11:05

to a very strong Christian

11:07

family but in a very performance

11:10

driven , uh culture , and

11:12

so the church tradition that

11:14

I was a part of and the family

11:17

perspective that I

11:19

was raised in was extremely

11:21

performance driven , like , okay

11:24

, yeah , you did good but you could have done better and you

11:26

could have done better sooner . So we're not

11:28

gonna we're not gonna , you know , lavish

11:31

much praise on you because then

11:33

you might not try as hard , you know you might

11:35

not do as well if you get the approval

11:38

and you get , you know , any kudos

11:42

from us . And so it was very

11:44

performance driven and and

11:46

very accomplished . You know , people in my family

11:49

were all extremely

11:52

successful in pretty much everything in

11:54

life , and so I was the

11:56

youngest of three boys and

11:58

so I had a lot to live

12:00

up to with my older siblings , and

12:02

that just carried right over into the religious

12:05

paradigm of do

12:08

more , be more , do good , be

12:10

good . Uh , it was

12:12

very our performance , our behavior

12:14

was very much our identity

12:17

and uh , yeah

12:19

, yeah . So I grew up as a burgeoning

12:22

Pharisee and thinking

12:25

if I do . This was the paradigm

12:27

I realized much later I grew up

12:29

with . If I do everything

12:31

well enough that God requires , then

12:33

he will bless what I want in

12:35

my life that isn't contradictory

12:38

to his will for me . In

12:40

other words , I'm checking all of his boxes

12:42

so that he'll bless all of

12:44

my agenda in life

12:46

, my very Christian , business

12:49

, performance-driven , pharisaical

12:51

life . And you know , god is really not

12:54

interested in my idols . God

12:56

is not wanting me to be more

12:59

sovereign , more in control

13:01

, more the cause of

13:04

glory and

13:06

sort of producing the

13:08

Christian life for myself to earn

13:10

something from him . In fact , the

13:17

old covenant is based on merit and the only reason it was given was to prove that we can merit

13:19

nothing . So the flesh profits scripture says profits

13:21

nothing . So it was given

13:23

not to give us a way of meriting

13:25

anything from God , but prove that we

13:27

can't . And

13:29

the economy that we live by is

13:31

grace and grace alone . In other words , the

13:34

life that I get to enjoy with Christ

13:36

is merited and not by

13:38

me . It just has to be received

13:40

by me . And while there's nothing

13:43

in history , in

13:45

our makeup , in the world , in the cosmos

13:47

, in all creation that is more true

13:50

than we were made to

13:52

be loved , there's also nothing harder , because

13:55

if I don't earn it . I have no control

13:57

over it . Adam and Eve were terrified

14:00

that they could not control the

14:02

righteousness of God . Like

14:04

, I want to be godly but I want to be the

14:06

cause of the godliness , then I'm

14:08

not dependent on anyone else's love

14:11

of me . What if God changes his mind

14:13

? What if he doesn't like what I do today ? I

14:15

would rather be godly on merit , and

14:18

then I'm not dependent on anyone

14:20

. We want to be independent , we want to be

14:22

self sovereign , in other

14:24

words , we want to be in control , and all of our

14:27

anxiety and all of our attempted

14:29

justifications and all of our striving

14:32

is based on our trying to be God

14:35

in our own little corner of creation . I

14:37

want to control outcomes so

14:40

that I can earn and merit and justify

14:42

what I want from my circumstances

14:45

, and so we think the Go

14:47

ahead .

14:48

Do you think that if someone

14:50

has been had

14:54

their trust violated many , many , many

14:56

times , that they will have

14:58

a harder time trusting

15:01

that God would always be

15:03

faithful to them ?

15:06

I certainly think it's true that someone

15:08

who has had trust violated

15:10

many times has a hard time . It's

15:14

trauma , and I think what

15:16

you're doing is defining the trigger of

15:18

that lack of trust . But I

15:21

think someone who hasn't then is

15:23

operating under the misjudged

15:25

, the misguided perspective

15:27

that they're the cause of the favor

15:29

they've received . So I know kids

15:31

that have grown up in a grace-based

15:34

home , teaching new covenant identity

15:36

in Christ and the finished work in union and

15:38

in dwelling life , teaching what we

15:41

teach Well , in fact , families of pastors

15:43

I'm sorry , yeah , families

15:45

of churches that I've pastored . And

15:48

yet when that kid grows up and

15:50

as a teenager , maybe

15:53

a young college kid , realizes how much

15:55

they've blown it , they still feel

15:57

like they've lost God's favor

16:00

, like they no longer deserve the intimacy

16:02

that they've enjoyed with

16:05

God . Well , they never deserved it . They

16:07

just hadn't ever threatened

16:09

it with their behavior . They never felt like

16:11

it had been undermined . So I think everybody

16:14

has to learn the love

16:16

and intimacy of God by grace

16:18

, that we get something that only

16:20

Christ can merit on our behalf

16:22

, that everything true of

16:25

Sean Renssel , everything

16:27

that's true of Jesus by merit

16:30

has been given to

16:33

Sean . It's now true of Sean . Jesus

16:36

is no more loving than Sean . It's

16:38

just not merited by Sean . Jesus

16:41

is no more accepted by God than

16:44

Sean . It's just not merited

16:46

by Sean . That's the hardest thing

16:48

in the world for us to believe that

16:50

what is true of Jesus by merit is

16:52

true of you by grace

16:54

, because if I didn't cause

16:56

it and I haven't earned it

16:59

, then it doesn't seem right . But

17:01

listen , what we're saying , if we say that

17:03

that's not right , is that

17:05

God is wrong . And

17:07

if you and God disagree on anything , only

17:09

one of you is wrong . If

17:12

you say you're unrighteous because you've

17:14

behaved badly and God says you're

17:17

righteous because Christ has behaved perfectly

17:19

on your behalf , then one of

17:21

you is wrong . Guess which one ? I'll

17:24

give you a hint it's not God . God

17:27

is not wrong about who you are and he's not

17:29

pretending or lying about who you are

17:31

. So I think our fears or

17:33

insecurities are pretty

17:35

universal . But I think

17:37

we can track some of those learned

17:40

experiences as the triggers

17:42

of those insecurities and

17:45

can kind of tackle

17:48

those lying beliefs when we know

17:50

where we learned them . But if we haven't

17:52

learned , haven't

17:55

discovered or unwrapped where we learned

17:57

those lying beliefs , they're still pretty

17:59

universal . I can't be

18:01

loved because I don't deserve it , or

18:03

someone else has proved to me

18:06

that I'm unlovable . And

18:08

yet all I could ever do , whether

18:10

I knew it or not , was receive what I

18:12

don't deserve . Receive the love

18:14

of God based on his character

18:17

and his sacrifice , because

18:19

that's what glorifies him . If I earned

18:21

anything , then all that

18:23

could possibly do is glorify me . And

18:25

, again , god's not really interested in making my idols

18:28

work . He's not really interested in my behavior , speaking

18:31

of what a great Christian I am . So

18:33

, anyway , I grew up just

18:35

as a burgeoning Pharisee and

18:38

had plans for my life that I

18:40

fully expected God to bless

18:42

, and he had other

18:44

plans . So when I

18:46

was on music scholarship , going headed

18:49

to Texas Tech on

18:51

a music scholarship it's a

18:53

long story I won't go into a lot of details

18:55

in , but I was in a horrible car accident

18:57

and , yeah

19:00

, friend of mine died , I broke , literally

19:02

severed my neck in a couple of places

19:05

and had a really bad uh

19:07

brain injury and

19:10

uh , couldn't walk , couldn't talk

19:12

, couldn't see , um

19:14

, couldn't remember anything . And

19:17

so , you know , someone would tell me something and I wouldn't

19:19

remember it five minutes later , and

19:21

so I had to relearn how to

19:23

do everything , how to remember , how to encode

19:26

information , how to walk , how to

19:28

. A lot of the speaking was

19:30

physical , and so , as inflammation went down

19:33

and I

19:35

had , uh , you

19:37

know , physical therapy type stuff , most

19:40

of that came back . Uh , but

19:42

, but

19:44

it made everything feel very artificial

19:46

. I'm now having to remember

19:48

things in a way that seems unnatural

19:50

to me . I'm having to walk in

19:52

a way that seems unnatural to me . I had

19:54

to use different parts of my brain To

19:57

learn how to do things , and

19:59

so it

20:01

was a crazy dynamic that

20:03

I had all of these

20:06

plans for my life and I was going to

20:08

be this great warrior for God

20:10

, and then he would bless

20:12

my life Because I'm doing everything he desires

20:14

. He would do what I desired , this transactional

20:17

paradigm . But

20:23

the Christian life isn't transactional . The Christian life is only relational . A lot of people would

20:25

say , yeah , the Christian life's relational , but

20:27

they wouldn't go so far as to say it's only

20:30

relational . They would say it's also

20:32

relational , right . So I mean

20:34

, if they're honest . So I

20:36

realized that my winning over

20:39

God's favor didn't

20:41

work , and then all of the things I

20:43

wanted to do for God I couldn't do

20:45

, and the identity

20:48

that I had is this performance

20:50

driven success

20:52

monster

20:54

was just not going

20:57

to happen . There was just no way . I

20:59

looked like the elephant man . I had all kinds

21:01

of weird problems

21:03

with my appearance and how I walked

21:06

and how I talked . I lost my music

21:08

scholarship . I couldn't compete at that

21:10

anymore . And for me to not be able

21:12

to compete , I

21:14

was going to walk on and play tennis

21:17

. I was a big tennis player , a tennis

21:19

tournament guy , and couldn't do that . So

21:21

so all of the things that my identity

21:23

was based on wasn't what God

21:26

had done for me . It's what I had and

21:28

what I planned to do for

21:30

God , and all of that was taken from

21:32

me and it and it seems strange I don't think

21:34

God is

21:36

the author of evil and all of my own

21:38

life . If that merits nothing , then

22:02

the best thing in the world for me is for my idolatry

22:05

to not work , for my idolatry

22:07

to fail . And as painful as

22:09

it is and still is

22:11

today , I'm in pain every single day of

22:13

my life . As

22:16

painful as that is , I

22:18

would rather struggle

22:20

in the flesh and know real life

22:23

, which is Jesus . He's not

22:25

just the giver of life , he's the life that

22:27

he gives , and so to know

22:29

him as life by grace and

22:31

grace alone is worth infinitely

22:34

more than can ever be cost of me

22:36

or anyone else in the flesh . And

22:38

so , in a very strange way

22:40

, I've gained

22:43

so much more than I lost . Now I still

22:45

suffer from that , and I am not saying

22:47

God wants us to suffer . I'm

22:49

saying God loves us too much to not leverage

22:51

that suffering for our good . So

22:54

he's never going to call cancer good and

22:58

he's never going to cause pain that I suffer every day Good , and he

23:00

, he's totally healed me . I just haven't

23:02

experienced that yet . So whether that's going to be

23:04

, you know , one day in heaven with a

23:06

new body and , by the way , we do

23:08

need a new body he's not going to make

23:10

this body perfect . So

23:12

whether that's how that comes about

23:14

, or I just get to , you

23:16

know , wake up one day in the next week

23:18

and all the pain is forever

23:20

gone , fabulous . I've never

23:23

known a single person whose body didn't fail

23:25

them . So the wholeness that we have

23:27

in Christ is not physical perfection

23:29

. That just does not happen

23:31

in this temporal life . God loves us too much to

23:34

leave us in these temporal bodies for

23:36

very long . This is just the preamble

23:38

to the big event , and

23:40

so we have eternal life in these

23:43

falling apart bodies . So

23:45

for him to hasten that or make that a little

23:47

bit harder . It's just the opening

23:49

act . It's just the opening number . I'm going to get a whole

23:51

new body . I'm eternally whole

23:53

, both physically and spiritually

23:55

, but in this interim , this

23:57

little curtain opening segue to

24:00

eternal life . We've got

24:02

the life , but we're learning

24:05

to depend upon him for it , and

24:07

the best way to do that is for any other hope

24:10

, any other hope , to

24:12

be proven worthless

24:15

, proven

24:24

worthless . And so the enemy causes all kinds of evil and God uses the enemy like a pawn for the

24:26

good of his children . Isn't that fantastic . It'd

24:29

be like I know my kid is going to be scared

24:31

if he does something

24:33

that's really not going to ultimately be bad

24:35

for him . So I encourage

24:37

that kid to do what

24:39

he doesn't want to go through

24:41

because of the good he will

24:43

gain from it . Maybe he's going to stand on the

24:46

precipice of a mountain , or he's going to

24:48

learn to hike up that mountain

24:50

, or he's going to learn

24:52

to eat food he doesn't

24:54

like or whatever , because the

24:56

good that comes out of the

24:58

hardship of getting up that mountain

25:00

is worth the mountain . And

25:03

then he never and he doesn't have to do it ever again he's

25:05

he'll . He will have that experience

25:07

forever . He will know what he's capable of

25:09

forever . His life will be changed

25:11

forever . Well , all God's doing is getting

25:13

us experientially up the mountain where

25:15

he's already placed us completely and fully

25:18

at rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ

25:20

. So I went through

25:22

a decade already knowing Jesus

25:24

is savior , but my

25:26

20s were really marked by my

25:29

going . Theology sucks

25:31

like everything's a lie , everything

25:34

, this whole God . I believe God is true . I've

25:36

experienced him in my life . I can't deny

25:38

what I know , but everything

25:41

I think of God is wrong . He

25:43

, if he loves me , then

25:45

this life is not what I think and I can't

25:47

look at the cross and deny that he loves me . As

25:50

a good Pharisee , I knew a lot of scripture . I

25:52

mean , if you were going to argue with me , I was going to beat

25:54

you in Greek . I mean , even if I was wrong

25:56

, I was going to win . I knew a lot

25:58

of scripture , but if I

26:00

thought

26:03

I knew anything , I thought I'm wrong

26:05

. Now I'm just wrong about everything

26:07

. I know everything and I'm wrong about all

26:09

of it . That's where I landed , and

26:12

so I spent about a decade as

26:14

a going , a fervent

26:17

, pharisaical , do-everything-right

26:20

believer , to realizing that

26:22

God was not dependent

26:24

upon me for

26:26

what he wanted in my life because

26:29

I wasn't capable of anything . I lost my

26:31

identity in every possible

26:34

way , every

26:43

possible way . I lost my hope for me and for my life in every single way , which just goes

26:45

to prove , now , looking back , that my hope was in all the wrong places

26:48

and what I came to were a few very

26:50

basic ideas between

26:52

me and God . I became a business

26:54

consultant so I did lots of

26:56

corporate training

26:58

and leadership development , executive

27:01

level coaching . It's kind of what I built

27:04

a business throughout my 20s doing

27:06

and

27:08

I was pretty good at it . But there was no fulfillment

27:10

in it . Not really . It

27:13

was just me overcompensating

27:15

for my broken ego from

27:18

this injury and all of the

27:20

ramifications of it . So I

27:22

was relatively successful in the flesh and

27:24

none of it meant anything , because I had

27:26

learned that I just don't get

27:29

to be the cause of my own life or

27:31

what I want from God for my

27:33

life . I just don't get to be the cause either

27:35

in the flesh or in religious

27:38

flesh , either causing it for myself

27:40

and my circumstances or earning

27:42

it from God and religion . I

27:45

just have no say . And so I came

27:47

up with kind

27:49

of an idea that I said over and over

27:51

and over . And when I became a pastor about

27:53

the age of 30 , which there's a transition

27:56

there I'll tell you in a minute but when

27:58

I started teaching I just went . Well , let

28:01

me tell you what I know Whatever God wants

28:03

God's going to have to be , he's going to have to

28:05

do it . Whatever he wants , it's going

28:07

to be one about your relationship with him

28:09

, not about how good you do . It's

28:11

going to be about your relationship with him and

28:13

whatever it is , he's going to have to do it . What

28:16

he wants , you're not going to do . Only

28:23

he can do what he wants done , and so you're either available and operating relationally with

28:25

him or or it's you know he's going to do it without you . But whatever

28:27

God wants to do , he's going to have to do . You're

28:29

not going to do it . And two , he

28:31

might be able to use you to do it , but

28:38

you're not going to be the cause of it . And two , I don't get to determine what that

28:41

is . And three , the reason he wants it because he's already okay , right

28:43

, he's not hungry , he's not lacking any glory

28:45

that I'm going to cause . He wants

28:47

me to participate for me , and

28:50

so the only reason he includes me

28:52

in his work is not because he can't get his work

28:54

done without me . Oh no , that

28:57

person can never be saved . Because Mike you , because Mike didn't drink enough

29:00

water the night before and didn't sleep well

29:02

and no , a bad slice of pizza

29:04

that I had the night before , so I wake

29:06

up grumpy is not going

29:08

to ruin the plan of God for all

29:10

eternity for someone . We are

29:13

participants in his divine

29:15

work if we're available , and his

29:17

divine work is not contingent

29:19

on my faithfulness

29:21

, it's contingent on his faithfulness

29:24

. He's not wrong

29:27

about what he's doing in my life

29:29

. So , anyway , I

29:31

had

29:34

started volunteering at a very

29:36

large local church . I

29:39

was traveling so much that

29:41

I finally said the next church , I see

29:43

if they open the Bible in the pulpit

29:45

. I'm just going to camp there every

29:47

Sunday . I'm going to clear my schedule

29:50

so I can show up every weekend because

29:52

I've now got a

29:54

pretty deep , abiding

29:57

relationship with God

29:59

, who is not just through

30:02

Christ , lord of my life , because

30:04

I've given up being in control , but

30:07

he's , you

30:10

know he's . He's not just saved me , he's

30:12

not just directing my life , but he's got

30:14

to be the cause of it . So my , my

30:17

job is just to engage

30:19

with him , just to be available with him , just

30:21

to trust him and what he does he's just

30:24

going to do . And as a business

30:26

guy , I started to see that just in my day-to-day

30:28

life If a car broke down

30:30

or if a talk went a certain way

30:32

where I was doing a training , or if an

30:35

opportunity opened up to me , I

30:37

just said okay , god , what are you ? That's not what

30:39

I would have done . What are you doing ? I want to participate

30:41

in whatever it is you're doing . If it costs me , it costs me

30:43

. You've got to write that check , you

30:46

know you've got to . You've got to make it work

30:48

. You've got to supply what that demands . I

30:50

just want to be available to whatever you're

30:52

doing , because I can't determine what it

30:54

what it is . You're not looking for

30:56

my direction and you're working on my

30:58

trust of you . That's it . That's the bottom line

31:00

of why I'm here . It's the only reason I wasn't raptured

31:02

. The moment I accepted Christ at eight

31:05

years old , um , it

31:07

gave me a little thumbs up . I don't understand . Anyway

31:11

, uh , so that's what I went

31:14

to church doing . I I found

31:16

I was invited to it . I told lots

31:18

of people my plan that I was just looking

31:21

for a church that teaches scripture , because

31:23

I don't know that I believe any of them . Everything

31:25

I had ever heard in church has turned out kind of

31:27

to be wrong , but I believe in scripture

31:29

. I love god . God loves

31:31

me . He's proven so faithful through this crisis

31:34

over the last decade with me . So I

31:36

just want someone who's opening a Bible and I can

31:38

find some community . And so

31:40

I plugged in to this church

31:42

and , you know , still knew I can't

31:44

. I can't memorize a verse of scripture . I can

31:46

barely read straight at this

31:49

point . But I knew a lot of scripture

31:51

as a young person and

31:54

that just came out of me all

31:56

the time and so when I went

31:58

to this church I would sit in on classes

32:00

and go to Bible studies and meet

32:03

with leaders and just his

32:05

word came out and listen . Scripture

32:08

can come out of people in a way that is

32:10

false . I can use an awful

32:12

lot of scripture to condemn people , and there's no

32:14

truth in that . And I can use an awful

32:17

lot of scripture to justify myself , and

32:19

there's no truth in that . So

32:21

you can use scripture in a way that's false

32:23

, but you can also use scripture in a way that's true

32:25

. And what I did is without

32:27

agenda was available and God used

32:29

all the stuff he had taught me as a Pharisee

32:32

. It just came flooding

32:34

out of me , and so I could talk about the Greek

32:37

, I could talk about the connection

32:39

and timeline of scripture . I could

32:41

talk about the

32:44

life that was born in or

32:46

created in Adam and lost at the fall

32:48

and unrestorable by the law . Completely

32:51

purchased at the cross and delivered again

32:53

and new by Christ , breathed on the disciples

32:56

in the upper room and delivered at Pentecost

32:58

. That life is the Zoe , life

33:00

of the spirit of God living in the

33:02

human being . That's what we're wired for . So I

33:04

could speak that language , but

33:07

I had no agenda . Like I wasn't in church

33:09

work , I thought nothing of myself

33:11

spiritually , like I didn't think I knew

33:13

anything anymore . Everything I knew was wrong

33:16

. So he just took all

33:18

of that resource and he brought it to these

33:20

leaders in churches and

33:22

I started just being

33:24

available and loving on people and correcting

33:28

a little error here and there and eventually

33:30

, a couple of years in , they were

33:32

like Mike , we've got these ministries that need

33:34

some help , you've got this organizational

33:36

development and leadership development perspective

33:39

and you've got all this wisdom

33:41

and spiritual perspective . It

33:43

was just truth . It's not that much wisdom . It's

33:46

not that much perspective , it's just

33:48

truth . It's the truth that comes from relationship

33:50

without agenda , and God

33:53

living through you looks

33:55

a lot like wisdom . I love 1

33:57

Corinthians 1.30 , where it says God

34:00

made him Jesus to be for

34:02

us . Redemption I don't

34:04

cause it . Wisdom I don't

34:06

cause it . And righteousness

34:09

I don't cause it . Those are things

34:12

he's made Christ to be to us , and

34:14

so if we're operating without agenda

34:17

and available to him , we're

34:20

going to look pretty wise , we're going

34:22

to sound pretty good , we're going to walk in

34:25

an awful lot of righteousness without trying

34:27

to . I'm not trying to not kill anybody today

34:29

. I just want to participate with Jesus , and

34:31

Jesus probably isn't going to have me kill anybody

34:34

today . I just want to participate with Jesus and Jesus probably isn't going to

34:36

have me kill anybody today . He's probably not wanting to deceive a

34:38

lot of people today . We're not trying to accomplish the law

34:40

. You realize the law is a negative right

34:42

. It's all the stuff you don't do , and there's lots

34:44

of people that aren't righteous , who aren't killing anyone

34:46

today , who aren't lying to anyone today

34:48

. They may not even talk to anyone today . Does

34:51

that make them righteous ? I've not spoken once

34:53

. I must be righteous . That

34:55

doesn't make anybody righteous . It's a negative

34:57

. Not doing it is not the cause

35:00

of anything . It might avoid some problems . Most

35:02

of us should shut up a little bit more me

35:04

especially . But

35:06

the bottom line is , if

35:09

we're available to him , what he's going to do

35:11

is what scripture says in Romans 8

35:13

, he's going to lead us in all , all

35:15

is a big word , in all

35:18

righteousness . There is no righteousness

35:20

except what Christ is leading us in . So

35:22

, anyway , I went through an ordination process

35:25

there , at this huge church , that was teaching

35:27

self-help most of the time and

35:29

, uh , you know , was just

35:31

teaching life without

35:34

knowing it was life and

35:36

you know , from anything else . But

35:38

as I'm teaching and growing in this

35:40

relational , not transactional

35:42

, paradigm of dependence

35:44

and sufficiency

35:47

, and experiencing this union that he's

35:49

revealing to me , this relational from

35:52

the innermost being , if I'm operating

35:54

without agenda , then what I experience is Christ

35:56

through me , process and and

35:58

beginning to define that with greater and greater

36:00

clarity through scripture . Um

36:03

, god sent a

36:05

group of people to my church that

36:08

, uh , did a discipleship

36:10

conference from exchange life ministries

36:12

. Yeah , now , keep in mind , this was almost

36:16

30 years ago now , um

36:18

, and I guess

36:20

it was 25 years ago . And the

36:24

first person that spoke , he came

36:26

to meet with us as the pastoral

36:28

team before the conference , and it was Bill

36:30

Loveless , whom you and I were talking about just a little bit ago , and this

36:33

was again 20 , some odd years ago . But he showed up and there was bill loveless , whom you and I were talking about just a little

36:35

bit ago and this was again 20 , some odd years ago . But

36:37

he showed up and there was only a handful

36:40

of us there with him and he was just sharing

36:42

his testimony and he talked about

36:44

how he was an elder of a church who was pretty

36:46

much done with christianity . He thought is all a farce

36:48

. And , uh , you know

36:50

, he was so frustrated and so angry

36:53

and so convinced that you know if

36:55

it's true , if Christianity is real

36:57

, it's not real to him that he's done

36:59

and God put on his heart the guy

37:01

that's going to be speaking at this event that

37:04

you're walking into , he's

37:06

here for you . You know , he's the guy

37:08

I want you to hear . He's like I don't even know why

37:10

I'm here . It was just on my calendar , I had to

37:12

be here today . So

37:18

he wanders in and Major Ian Thomas goes up on the stage and , you know

37:21

, bill unwraps the story . You

37:23

should have him on , if you can , one of these days . He'll

37:27

tell the story better than I do . But Bill is telling this story to

37:30

us , a handful of pastors in this huge

37:32

church in San Antonio , texas

37:34

, and he quotes Ian

37:37

Thomas is saying it's going

37:39

to choke me up , just to say it . He says

37:41

God never intended for

37:43

you to live the life that only Jesus Christ

37:45

can live in and through you . So here's Bill

37:48

Loveless , quoting Ian Thomas , speaking

37:50

everything I've been teaching to me

37:52

. And so

37:55

we're sitting there in this little room and

37:57

he says God never intended quotes

37:59

Thomas God never intended for

38:01

you to live the life that only Jesus Christ can

38:03

live in and through you . And I just stood up for

38:06

no reason , I just went . I

38:08

just stood up right there in the middle of the room

38:10

for no reason whatsoever and everybody kind

38:13

of looks at me and I went say that

38:15

again , it's a bill , he goes

38:17

, god never . He said it again . I

38:19

thought that sums up so much

38:21

of what I've been trying to say for

38:23

the last , you know , two years I've

38:26

been on staff here and what I've experienced

38:28

the last 12 years walking through this process

38:30

of just learning

38:33

dependence . It's the most basic thing in the world

38:35

, but the truth that's revealed

38:37

as we depend upon God paints

38:39

a clearer picture

38:41

of the whole of scripture . And

38:43

so , anyway , bill

38:46

came and did that conference with a

38:48

gentleman by the name of John Best who is a seminary

38:51

professor but

38:54

was an Exchange Life guy from Dallas

38:56

, and Exchange Life Ministries

38:59

became Network 220

39:01

. And I was a board member

39:03

. So fast forward a decade . I was

39:05

a board member for Network 220

39:08

for about seven years . I just stepped down

39:10

and John Lynch and a couple of other guys

39:12

stepped into that role with

39:14

Network 220 . We actually have

39:16

a huge convention coming up in May

39:18

. If anyone's available , there's still spots

39:20

available in Dallas May

39:23

I think it's 4th

39:26

and 5th

39:28

, and if you're a member of the ministry , there's

39:30

ministries that are members of this association

39:33

. But anyway , I was the training

39:35

director and a board

39:38

member for a bunch of years there but they

39:40

couldn't keep renewing my board membership . We're

39:42

about to fudge the bylaws

39:45

too much . It's like , okay , I got to step down , but

39:48

anyway , what a gift

39:50

that I found this group of people through

39:52

Bill and John and the conference they came and did

39:54

, and then the entire Exchange Life

39:57

Ministries Network we changed

39:59

the name to Network 220 , all

40:01

of these ministries nationally that are

40:03

teaching life

40:06

in Christ . They're teaching the finished work

40:08

of Christ . So as a young pastor

40:10

praise God , I got plugged into

40:13

all of these

40:15

ministries but none of them were pastoring

40:17

. They were all counseling offices

40:19

and a few seminary counseling

40:21

guys , but

40:23

I mean the only pastor , the only

40:25

pastor I knew nationally that

40:27

was teaching this message was Frank Friedman

40:30

. I met him when I went to this event

40:32

. We had him come to my church . I

40:34

was pastoring and he did a bunch of

40:36

events . But anyway

40:38

, frank pulled me aside

40:40

and said everyone here needs to understand

40:42

how church works from your perspective

40:45

. You've got to join the association

40:47

and start serving . I said why

40:49

would I join ? I'm not a counselor , why

40:51

would I join ? And he goes no , we need

40:53

pastors and you need to join . I'm going to sponsor . Like , why would I join ? And he goes no , you they . We need pastors and we

40:55

don't . You need to join , I'm going to sponsor you

40:57

, you're going to join . So he really didn't ask

41:00

me , he just said I'm going to sponsor you , you're going to join

41:02

, we're going to get more pastors . And so

41:04

I did . And for a long time

41:06

it was kind of Frank and I that were the

41:08

pastors in the Exchange

41:11

Life Ministries , now Network 220

41:13

Association . Now there's a bunch , you

41:15

know there's scores of them , but

41:18

at the time they were all counselors but they were

41:20

teaching and discipling Exchange

41:22

Life Ministries and doing some conferences

41:24

. So anyway , that's fast

41:27

forward now . I've pastored and church

41:29

planted for a bunch of years and for

41:31

the last 15

41:33

years , I guess , I have been in

41:35

full-time ministry , pouring into

41:37

leaders , leading conferences , doing mission

41:39

work , much like you're doing , which is wonderful

41:42

. And yeah

41:45

, now the next season of my life is going

41:47

to be pouring into other leaders that

41:49

are doing more of what I've done , but in a more specialized

41:51

way . So raising up worship

41:54

leaders that are helping people worship

41:56

and lead worship from a Christ as life

41:58

grid . Pouring into demographic leaders

42:00

, whether that's men's or women's or youth or children's

42:02

ministry . Pouring into leadership

42:04

development guys , strategy and vision

42:06

so that they can

42:08

walk out alongside

42:11

other leaders in their area of expertise

42:13

. The truth of Christ , as is life as it

42:15

applies to ministries we're doing in our

42:17

day and age . We've projected

42:20

this thing that we call church life

42:22

, which is really a corporation

42:25

. This corporate structure we

42:27

projected onto body life , and

42:29

body life really is more like the

42:31

church , really is more like a tribe . It's

42:34

more familial by nature

42:36

and it's not wrong that we

42:38

have a corporate structure . That's the society that we

42:40

live in . But we've kind of forced

42:42

this structure . That's not contra-biblical

42:47

right , it's not against scripture , but it's extra

42:49

biblical , it's beyond what's in scripture and

42:51

that causes some problems . But

42:54

we've got to work that out , because that's what people think

42:56

of as church . So , anyway

42:58

, we're taking leadership development from a crisis life

43:00

grid to the local church

43:02

and because that's where

43:04

all the Christians are , I

43:07

don't have great faith in the structure of

43:09

local church , but , you know , through

43:12

our fallibility , god's grace

43:14

is going to be made known . So , anyway

43:16

, that's what we're doing now and that's where I've

43:18

come from .

43:20

Wonderful man . Thank you so much for sharing

43:22

all of that . And tell me , like

43:25

I know that you do a

43:27

podcast , that's like kind of a really

43:29

active thing every week . Tell me

43:31

about that , Because it's kind of like the public

43:34

facing kind of what you're

43:36

doing and how people can kind of get

43:39

a taste for the ministry that you're

43:41

doing that God is using

43:43

you for . So tell me about that .

43:45

Yeah , increasingly as I work with leaders

43:47

and kind of behind the scenes with churches

43:49

I had not been

43:51

doing , especially through COVID

43:54

outbreak seasons , was

43:56

not doing as many conferences , was

43:58

not preaching for as many churches

44:00

, because that just wasn't happening anyway

44:03

. So I began working

44:05

more and more with church leaders and launched

44:07

an online mostly online

44:10

ministry called Mike Q Daniel Ministries

44:12

, where we we have some missionaries

44:14

. We have some missionaries in some very persecuted

44:17

parts of the world that are translating

44:21

scripture and ministering to

44:23

the down and out in those communities

44:26

, in those cultures . I can't give

44:28

a lot of details about them , but that's one aspect

44:30

of what we do , and the other one is that

44:33

I do this broadcast . We

44:35

right now are doing it three days a week Tuesday

44:37

, thursday and Sunday at 8

44:39

am Central Time . It's

44:41

kind of a coffee chat

44:44

hour and every

44:46

Tuesday I have a hero

44:48

of grace , someone who is championing

44:51

ministry from a grace perspective . You

44:53

have been on that broadcast . I

44:55

had John Lynch on that broadcast

44:57

today . If y'all don't know who John

44:59

Lynch is you should . You need to go find

45:02

him online at John Lynch Speaks . I've

45:04

had Bill Loveless on the broadcast . In

45:06

fact , he's walking through curriculum once a month

45:08

on Tuesdays . We

45:11

call it Triber Tuesday . We invite someone to join us

45:13

who's at some level

45:15

a participant in the broadcast , an

45:17

attender getting fed from the

45:20

ministry , but who are also leading ministry

45:22

in their own right . We invite them to get

45:24

on camera in front of everybody else

45:26

in the broadcast . And so , yeah , we

45:29

do that every Tuesday . On Thursday , we have

45:31

a discipleship-based chat

45:33

with our audience , so it's pretty interactive

45:36

. We answer questions on the fly

45:38

, which is always interesting , and so

45:40

Tuesdays we have interviews , thursdays

45:43

we have discipleship conversations , and

45:45

Sundays I usually have a prepared message

45:47

, and that's all . Three of those are at 8

45:49

am Central or

45:51

Texas time .

45:54

Wow , that's incredible . I really love

45:56

that , because people can still be involved

45:59

in their local church and still

46:01

be a voice for grace

46:04

and champion for grace , no matter where they're

46:06

being used by God and serving

46:08

God , but they can be fed . And

46:11

I've listened to many of your discipleship

46:14

discipleship times and

46:16

, uh , I think you have a real gift , uh

46:18

for uh working

46:21

out practically how grace

46:23

works in people's lives , especially

46:26

with I . One comes to mind uh

46:29

, right now , which is when you

46:31

were talking about boundaries , and boundaries

46:33

was something that you know . There

46:35

was a very popular book that came out and it was

46:37

very psychological in its , in

46:40

its perspective , and

46:42

I just thought you did a remarkable

46:44

job of applying

46:47

the new covenant and the

46:49

truth of the gospel , even

46:52

when it was maybe uncomfortable or went against

46:54

the grain of what would be maybe

46:56

psychologically acceptable . But

47:00

you stood your ground and you were like this

47:02

is what it means , this is what

47:04

the gospel says and this is why that may be

47:06

uncomfortable and it may be really difficult for

47:09

you to process . But you

47:11

can't just make a rule and say I'm allowed

47:14

to set boundaries and do this and that um

47:16

, because some person

47:18

told me I am um . But

47:21

it was much more surrendered , it was

47:23

much more humble and it was much more faith

47:25

directed towards Christ and his , his

47:28

Lordship in our lives . Uh

47:30

, so I highly recommend

47:32

, uh , the the grace grace tribe . I

47:34

got my grace coffee cup

47:37

that oh yeah , I don't have one here .

47:38

I've not been in my office for a few days .

47:40

Yeah , we have grace tribe mugs yeah

47:42

, I use it regularly and and , uh

47:45

, I think it's a bright , shining light in

47:47

the uh body of christ here

47:49

in america . So , uh , I

47:51

recommend everyone to take a look at that . So

47:53

, on Facebook , you're Mike

47:55

Q Daniel .

47:57

Yeah , so the way to find me everywhere

47:59

is just include that Q it's Mike

48:01

Q Daniel , the letter Q

48:03

it's my middle initial , so Mike

48:05

Q Daniel . You can find my YouTube

48:08

page . You can find our Facebook

48:10

page where we do our broadcast

48:13

, one of the places we do it . You can also find the

48:15

website mikeqdanielcom

48:18

Q is for Quest , so it's Michael Quest

48:20

, daniel , but mikeqdanielcom

48:22

, and you can find links to all of that . And

48:25

we have a podcast . So for your podcast listeners

48:27

, we take our broadcast

48:30

and we put it on the podcast every week .

48:32

Okay Well , there you go . Awesome

48:34

, well , thank you so Awesome . Well , thank

48:40

you so much for your time and your wisdom . Um , you know , maybe everyone should just kind

48:42

of listen to your podcast , cause it's amazing .

48:43

Uh , you know right , you're a unique fingerprint

48:45

of of the expression of God . Here's

48:47

the thing God is infinite , so

48:50

for us to know him more , I'm very finite

48:52

, right , I had a specific beginning and I'll

48:54

be leaving this earth , probably very soon

48:56

. So for us to know

48:58

him , we have to know him through each other , and

49:01

so you are a unique fingerprint of God

49:03

in this world , and so we all

49:05

we need to know him where we are , so

49:07

that we can make him known as only he

49:10

can through each one of us . So I'm

49:12

so glad you're here and doing what you're doing , my friend

49:14

.

49:15

Thanks , you're really fun and um , thanks

49:17

, uh for being so bold

49:19

, uh to trust in the

49:22

scriptures and uh to just believe

49:25

what they say . So I think you're you're a champion

49:27

when it comes to that . So , uh , thank

49:30

you so much . We're going to wrap it up here , so

49:33

again , check out mikeqdanielcom

49:35

. Mike , hang on one second while

49:37

things upload . When we're done and

49:40

everyone else , we'll see you later .