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Welcome to the Site . Visit podcast . Leadership

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and perspective from construction

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With your host , James

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Faulkner .

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Live from BuildX Vancouver 2024

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.

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Janine hello .

0:24

Hi James , how are you ?

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Wearing Fuchsia . I like it .

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It's Valentine's Day .

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It is , it's Valentine's Day , not ?

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to mention pink's , my favorite color .

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I do . It looks very good on you .

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Thank you .

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Here we are at BuildX , you and me yes

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, from our last interview that we had

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. I really enjoyed that , by the way .

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As did I . Thank you , I think it was such

0:44

a great experience . I told Craig it was so

0:46

fun . I really loved every minute .

0:48

Yeah , I definitely thought that over

0:52

a nice glass of French

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wine we could really dig into a lot

0:57

of stuff . I also thought that it

0:59

wouldn't necessarily always be a podcast conversation

1:01

. I find you very interesting in general , so

1:04

it would be really cool to even

1:06

hang out one time and just chat . So that's kind of cool

1:08

.

1:09

That's lovely , I really appreciate it A new relationship

1:11

.

1:11

Thank you , Craig . Craig is over there

1:13

in silence .

1:15

But he's listening and I just Dashing

1:17

a man . I just start . Craig is

1:19

the best I said . Aren't you coming with me

1:22

?

1:24

Anyway , yes , he is .

1:27

But I just started listening I haven't finished it yet your

1:30

podcast last week with Jesse Unkey

1:33

and Colin Cox . Colin

1:35

Cox . I had not heard of him , but

1:37

now of course I was looking him up .

1:39

Yeah , you should bring him in and talk about leadership

1:41

stuff .

1:42

I wondered yeah .

1:43

He's really a great strategic thinker

1:45

and sort of just thinks on a different level which

1:49

is kind of cool . So

1:51

what do you think of BuildX ?

1:53

I'm very impressed . It's very interesting

1:55

, so busy , so many familiar faces

1:57

, but also so much new . I

2:00

haven't even made it halfway around yet . Yeah

2:02

, it's pretty big , it's amazing .

2:04

It's like one of those things where you can't see the end

2:06

. It's like the infinity lights .

2:07

Indeed .

2:10

I can't see where it's kind of like Star Wars in here

2:12

, yeah . So how's things going

2:14

at VRCA right now ? You guys excited , got lots

2:16

of initiatives you're doing .

2:19

Things are going great at VRCA and in fact last

2:22

night we had our annual general meeting and

2:24

voted in our four new board members , which

2:27

is great so who you got on now . So

2:29

we have added a few people to the board . So

2:32

Craig Ends from Elaston

2:34

has joined . Ronan Dean from

2:36

North American Construction , sam

2:38

Bresden from Fort Modular , who

2:41

also helps us with our reconciliation action

2:43

plan , and then Nicky

2:45

Keith from Wilson Beck . So

2:47

, the VRCA board is somewhat

2:50

balanced between general

2:52

contractors , trade contractors , professional

2:54

services and manufacturers and suppliers

2:56

. So our board reflects

2:59

roughly the makeup of those

3:01

four areas .

3:01

Well , that's cool . So you've got all

3:04

those perspectives covered , so you can actually

3:06

I'm going to look at my notes here . Because

3:08

, the one thing that I wanted to Look

3:10

how nice my notes are .

3:12

Isn't that nice ? Wow , that is nice .

3:14

Formatted typeface and everything I

3:17

wanted to chat with you about leadership and how

3:19

. One thing that you

3:21

and I have had a number of interactions over

3:24

the past couple of months and

3:26

what I noticed was you have an

3:29

amazing sense of integrity in

3:31

knowing instinctually how to do the right

3:33

thing . Where did that come from ?

3:36

Well , first of all , thank you so

3:39

much . What a compliment . That may be the best compliment

3:41

I have ever received , so thank you very much

3:43

for that . And

3:46

I think it's . Built over time and

3:48

different leaders , and

3:51

certainly my family , my parents , you

3:53

know you emulate actions

3:55

that you

3:57

love , that you feel are authentic

4:00

and pure , and you

4:02

adopt them as your own . And maybe not everybody sees

4:04

them the same way . So

4:06

I have worked for some pretty fantastic people

4:08

, great sponsors

4:11

, in my career and I have , I think

4:13

I've , tried to adopt some of their approaches

4:15

. Also , with age comes

4:18

some grace and the ability to look at a

4:20

situation , and not everything is black

4:22

and white and some things are quite gray

4:24

and , you

4:27

know , elevating a reaction in times of

4:29

stress is not a great idea . Things

4:31

like things I have adopted over time

4:33

, for sure .

4:34

I mean , I would think it takes courage in

4:36

order to conduct

4:38

oneself that way , because

4:41

it does have a vulnerability

4:43

to it , because you've got to kind of put yourself

4:45

out there with what you're trying to like

4:47

. I always find that

4:49

, you know , in order to do the right thing in

4:53

business , sometimes you feel

4:55

like you're putting yourself out in the wind sometimes

4:58

and you could be blown over , and

5:01

but you have to have that faith in yourself

5:03

that you're doing the right thing . Do you

5:06

with your teams and the career that

5:08

you've had in the past ? I mean , has this been something

5:10

that has been a theme for you over the

5:12

years ?

5:13

Sue , I've always felt quite

5:15

passionate about certain things and

5:17

willing to go out on a limb for those things

5:20

. But some things that resonate

5:22

with me is , you know , most recently , when I was

5:24

at Carlson Construction , we had a leader

5:26

there , chris Pirmett , who used to say to

5:29

me I know you're going to make the best

5:31

decision you can today with the

5:33

best information that you have at this moment

5:36

in time , and that is not to say that

5:38

tomorrow that is not going to be the right decision

5:40

. That is still going to be the right

5:42

decision . And I think having someone

5:44

put their confidence in your ability

5:47

to make decisions and to build you up to the

5:49

point where you feel capable of making

5:51

a good decision gives you

5:53

the confidence to go out on the things that

5:55

you know and think are right .

5:57

So Well , something along

5:59

the way has enabled you

6:01

to be like that , and it's kind

6:03

of interesting . Can

6:05

you think back of a time , maybe

6:08

, you know , in your 20s or in your

6:10

30s , when you were not sure

6:12

what the right thing was to do and then you

6:14

did that and it paid off ? Is

6:16

there some kind of a situation where you're like , ah

6:18

, this is how I learned this ?

6:21

So it's probably more . I learned it

6:23

through making a lot of the wrong decisions

6:25

. As they say , failure is how we

6:28

figure out the future . But

6:30

another thing that I would say is I think

6:32

again with , as

6:35

you progress in your career and as you are

6:37

given , you know , the confidence and you are

6:39

built up that comes with that

6:41

, like there is some I'm

6:45

trying to say it so so some privilege

6:47

that comes with being in a position

6:49

where , where one

6:53

, what , what you say , people listen to , there's , there's

6:55

a lot less , maybe people walking

6:57

away or not going to oh

6:59

yeah , don't adopt what she said so . So

7:02

there's that , but there's also the privilege that

7:04

goes with . Like , when I was younger

7:06

, I

7:08

needed to pay the rent , I needed to do these things

7:10

, and so I probably was a little bit

7:12

more cautious in the things that I did and said , whereas

7:15

now , you know one , I'm

7:17

smarter , so I am more firmer

7:19

in my beliefs , but also I'm probably not

7:21

going to lose

7:23

everything because I make a wrong move .

7:26

Oh , I see , that makes sense .

7:27

So I think there's some , there's some privilege is less at stake

7:30

. There's less at stake , maybe , maybe less

7:32

at stake because I'm

7:34

less worried about losing it .

7:36

I see .

7:37

So and you're like there's some authenticity

7:39

there , right ? You can be much more authentic when

7:41

you're not worried about what everybody is going to think or say

7:44

yeah , that's true , yeah .

7:46

Did you what are often ? Do

7:48

you have some sort of personal

7:50

values that are things

7:52

that you sort of abide by , like

7:55

things that are you kind of say to yourself

7:58

when you come into any sort of a

8:00

conflict or you think of no , jeanine

8:02

, remember , you do this , you do this , you

8:04

do this and this is how we do things in

8:06

in the , in the genie I'm

8:08

going to the genie in a sphere . Is

8:12

that a word ?

8:13

Genie in a sphere it certainly should be .

8:15

Come on into the genie in a sphere everybody .

8:16

I know I think that I

8:20

don't have a mantra so much that I

8:22

follow in that area , but

8:26

I do try to . I

8:28

think that the things that have made

8:30

me the person I am today is

8:33

people that have shown confidence and

8:35

interest in what I was doing and

8:38

built me up in a way that I felt more

8:40

comfortable being who I am . I

8:43

think that's the other thing . When I look

8:45

at even our team at the VRCA

8:47

, being

8:49

able to invest in this group to

8:52

let them spread their wings , doing

8:54

the things that they love and building up their

8:56

confidence to be successful , just makes

8:58

me feel even better and more

9:00

confident to keep doing the same thing . I

9:05

think you follow

9:07

some values and certainly I

9:09

learned values from my parents and

9:12

things that , as

9:14

I always tell my son , if you never lie , you never

9:16

have to remember what you said , these

9:18

little mantras that we maybe think are pretty

9:20

simple . Also

9:27

, I haven't always been this way . But

9:31

being kind

9:33

, you don't have

9:35

to get your point across when

9:38

something isn't going right or whatever . Kindness

9:40

is so important and it

9:44

cushions any outcomes

9:47

. When you are kind , when you take the time to

9:49

be kind because you can say the same thing a lot of different

9:51

ways , but if you can be kind , it will come across

9:53

so much better . That's one

9:56

of the things I think about a lot .

9:58

When we look at we've talked about

10:00

labor shortage , we talked about it on our last podcast

10:02

and we think about the different generations coming into construction

10:05

and the leadership that I think

10:07

you are , via osmosis , putting through at

10:09

VRCA . When

10:15

you said kindness , I instantly went

10:17

to thinking of there

10:20

is a triteness of

10:22

the younger generation of judging

10:25

each other for lots

10:27

of weird things . I mean it's an instant judgment

10:29

based on how many followers do you have ? Again

10:32

, all of this sort of stuff Coming

10:35

in with kindness is almost like an art

10:37

now , isn't it ? I

10:40

can imagine that companies are

10:42

having trouble making people

10:44

actually care enough about

10:47

everything rather than just being so transactional

10:49

.

10:50

I don't disagree at all and I think , when you look

10:52

at the value systems of people

10:55

coming into business now

10:57

, and not value system in a way that

10:59

they don't have values , in a way that they value different

11:01

things , and I think we even touched on this in our last

11:03

conversation whereas they

11:05

maybe value more of their time out of work

11:07

than they value the time in work . The

11:10

investment in what that looks like is going to

11:12

change the face of business , the

11:16

more when I look at construction

11:18

being so entrepreneurial that 90%

11:21

of the construction companies

11:23

are 20 people or less . That's

11:26

an entrepreneurial environment

11:28

. So

11:32

you're either going to be an entrepreneur or

11:35

maybe you're going to

11:37

get a really good work-life balance .

11:39

Yeah , the work-life balance , that's an interesting one . Craig's

11:42

like uh-uh , not this conversation .

11:44

Yeah , we don't let Craig have any balance . No

11:46

balance .

11:47

No , it's work only Craig no . No , there's

11:49

no balance . Csaw on the work

11:51

side sorry , yeah

11:54

, okay , it's a Craig . The CSAW social

11:56

life up in the area . You don't have any . That's

11:59

yeah I . So

12:02

how do you with VRCA

12:04

and just knowing

12:06

you , this little time that

12:08

we sort of spent in the genious sphere , do

12:15

you find that you hear a lot of

12:17

how do I deal with people ? Problems

12:19

from members Like how do I

12:22

? Is there a leadership gap ? Do you think that there

12:24

is a ? Is there a skill set ? That's kind of missing

12:27

.

12:28

You know that's interesting . I

12:31

don't certainly not a lot of people

12:33

calling me directly to ask about that .

12:34

For fair enough yeah .

12:35

But I would say that , for instance

12:37

, we were planning for a construction leadership forum

12:40

. That's coming up in . May and when I

12:42

go to the board and other people for feedback

12:44

on what topics they think are hot for this

12:46

year and what we should talk about . Absolutely

12:49

like leadership development , succession

12:51

planning , working with staff One

12:54

of the things that I've well , I shouldn't

12:56

say I coined it because I'm sure I didn't , but

12:59

you know , this retention

13:01

of this certain two to 10

13:03

year people is so important . And skills

13:05

, whatever that skill is , and of

13:07

course we keep reading the stuff that says it's

13:10

succession planning , it's career planning , it's

13:12

this , that , and this is an evolving topic

13:14

because of course it was something else 10 years ago . You

13:17

know , now somebody walks into the company and

13:19

they want to know give you an actual charted

13:21

path of how they're going to run the company some

13:23

day .

13:24

It's terrifying for some people .

13:26

However , if you look at that

13:28

and you look at all the companies that

13:30

are out there , how many of them are going to

13:32

look even remotely like they look today

13:34

? Next year , two years or whatever . So

13:36

charting that path has to be way

13:39

more fluid and

13:42

I'm not sure if

13:44

you don't have the kindness , confidence

13:46

building and investment in your people , that fluidity

13:48

will go . Know what ? Like people won't stay

13:50

, of course .

13:50

That's true , because it will inherently

13:53

just be more transactional .

13:54

Well , and you won't be able to have the kind of dialogue

13:56

you need to have , where you say , hey , they

13:59

know you're looking out for them , hey , something's

14:01

changed . It's not going to look like we talked about

14:04

.

14:04

I'm still your sponsor , I'm

14:06

still working towards this in

14:09

terms relevant to that business , you

14:11

know from dealing with a number

14:13

of people that have put their succession

14:15

plans together over the years

14:17

clients of SiteMax , also other

14:19

relationships I have in the construction industry . One

14:22

thing that I think would be very beneficial to

14:25

have perhaps as a resource would

14:27

be a

14:29

corporate finance lawyer to

14:31

be able to talk about different option plans

14:33

for being able to have succession

14:36

work in examples , because

14:38

some don't realize how

14:40

creative

14:44

you can get .

14:44

Yes .

14:45

And you know there's different

14:48

strike prices people can have based on different

14:50

performances , options

14:52

et cetera , and once that

14:54

is there , you basically need

14:56

to have the

15:00

leadership be able to demystify

15:04

a little bit , because the problem is you

15:06

hit it on the head earlier is that market dynamics

15:08

in the future . No one can predict the future , so

15:10

everyone's kind of terrified . The younger

15:12

generation is like I don't know if I want to sign up for this forever

15:14

because I don't know where this is going to go , and they're

15:16

like I don't want you to kill my baby . So

15:19

it's like Well , you

15:21

know .

15:23

so I'm from the US and

15:25

, let's say , 20 years ago in the US

15:28

there was a huge trend , and it may still

15:30

be a trend , but you

15:32

know , the bigger firms were buying some of the smaller engineering

15:34

firms and part of the reason driving

15:37

this was the engineering firms couldn't

15:39

succession plan . They had no one to hand this off to

15:41

, and the mantra from the owners that

15:43

we were getting because I worked for a company that was purchasing

15:46

some of these was that there

15:48

was people were no longer willing to

15:50

risk their entire livelihoods to buy

15:52

into ownership in a company . We're

15:54

not willing to cash in their 401K or

15:56

get a second mortgage on the house or things like that

15:58

. They even

16:01

then had that attitude that people weren't

16:03

interested in doing that . But it's interesting

16:05

when you say if you had somebody who

16:07

actually explained what it took to do something

16:09

like that , because it's not black and white , it's

16:11

actually . You know , some of these buyout

16:14

plans and the retention and

16:16

all of that can be crafted in a way

16:18

that people can have access , I think .

16:21

Yeah , it's interesting because you know there's like

16:23

in the tech world in terms of corporate finance

16:25

. I know we're sort of dovetailing a little bit out

16:28

and fitting in from , you know , our

16:30

leadership conversation . But what I find

16:32

kind of interesting is that when

16:34

there's always an impending possible

16:36

acquisition of a company or a company going public

16:39

, you know the word options kind

16:41

of seems to make more sense because

16:43

there's always this liquidity event , whereas

16:46

if you have somebody who started a general contracting

16:48

firm , it's a service business . You know , you wonder

16:50

, you know , does the brand of the business live

16:52

with that legacy of that

16:55

person that started ?

16:56

it . That's a real risk .

16:58

And so there's always the well , are

17:00

you going to buy into my company , kind

17:02

of thing , whereas you

17:04

know in the realm of tech or in you

17:07

know other corporate finance

17:09

. It's like you just get options and

17:11

then one day they're worth a lot of money .

17:13

Yeah , you know , that doesn't really happen . It's not

17:15

terrible either .

17:16

No , but I just don't think that that really

17:18

happened . So you basically have these two different things

17:20

that are competing and people hear about . Well

17:22

, and especially in the youth , it's like you

17:25

know , and the people in their 20s and their 30s are like , well

17:27

, my friend works at Google . They got a bunch of options

17:30

. He's like , oh , how does that work ? And that's like , you know

17:32

, you got somebody who's a project coordinator and they're like , okay

17:34

, well , I don't have any options . All

17:36

I got was like , if I stay here 10 years , I get

17:38

to buy into this company . It's like what ? There's

17:41

this speed and this feeling like there's a

17:43

miss out on something .

17:45

So I think the corporate finance thing there's a lot of creativity

17:47

that can be done to actually create excitement , and

17:49

I think this goes to

17:51

you don't know what you don't know , and

17:54

sometimes you don't even know the question to ask

17:56

to make something like that a reality . I

17:59

saw this somewhat related

18:01

to what we're saying . My friend sent

18:03

me this chart the other day about if you

18:06

had maybe you saw this if you had

18:08

invested in the S&P you

18:10

could have like 4% .

18:11

You're an idiot .

18:13

And I was like , no wonder , when I look

18:15

at my retirement , I'm like did I save all

18:17

that , or did I actually make some money ? How

18:19

did that even happen ? Anyway

18:22

, like I think it is

18:24

not the kind of growth that

18:26

I was expecting , and had someone educated

18:29

me 30 years ago , I might have chosen

18:31

to put that money somewhere else . Maybe , maybe

18:33

not . I mean , I'm not going to say like , certainly

18:36

it's okay , but I thought it would be

18:38

more .

18:39

So let's just talk about people

18:44

with their go back to values

18:46

again and leadership and how . Something

18:49

about showing up . Do you think people

18:51

are showing up like they used to ? I

18:54

don't know . You can say when we were .

18:57

When we were younger .

18:58

When we were , I think , killers as a song called when we

19:00

were young All my favorite songs actually . But

19:02

do you think there's a showing up part that people come

19:04

and show up for things and are

19:06

really realized consequences

19:08

et cetera , like in construction in general ?

19:11

So there's certainly people who don't , no

19:13

question . I think lots of times

19:15

in those scenarios you have to look at the investment

19:17

you made in them as a person and in their

19:19

career . I

19:21

always think like I would love to be

19:23

100% invested in almost every person

19:26

I meet , but there's just not enough time to balance

19:28

that all and so , and then when you look at a larger

19:30

company , how do you scale that up ? And

19:32

you know I've got 10 people under me that

19:34

I'm trying to teach to be this way , and then they have

19:36

10 , each have 10 people under them and

19:38

that's going to break down

19:41

somewhere . Not everybody has the skill to do

19:43

all of that , and so I think

19:45

for

19:47

lots of people , if you invest properly

19:49

, you read the room and you create

19:52

a career path for them , you can

19:54

get them to show up , but it

19:56

won't be passed . You can't passively get

19:59

that anymore .

19:59

No , you can't Like it doesn't come default

20:01

. You kind of have to ingrain it in your company's

20:04

culture . But it's interesting you say that because

20:06

you know , you said it's

20:08

. You get a lot of your you

20:13

know values and beliefs from how you were raised

20:15

. So

20:18

there

20:20

you have it in a way right , because when you

20:22

think about how does how

20:24

, do you have a company a certain way ? Well , they've all

20:26

, all the people there have all been raised in different

20:29

ways and you try and

20:31

suddenly have this company that's like

20:33

well , now I'm going to be your

20:35

parent or parents again

20:37

and I'm going to try , and you

20:39

know , indoctrinate you and I don't mean that

20:42

in a negative way , but indoctrinate you

20:44

in a new way of thinking , a corporate

20:46

mantra or whatever that is , in order

20:48

to conduct

20:50

yourself at that company for the company's best

20:52

interest . So what would

20:54

you say ? Is that a how

20:58

? Would you say that people can navigate

21:00

that diverse

21:03

sort of onboarding of different

21:05

ideas , like people coming in , like

21:07

it's kind of complicated .

21:09

It is complicated and you're right

21:11

, everybody's been raised a bit differently

21:13

and so they're going to approach things differently

21:15

, not to mention every company is different

21:17

and every leader is different , so what

21:20

you're going to get out of that will be

21:22

different . We

21:25

are planning for a Women in Construction Leap conference

21:27

on March 8th , and we were meeting

21:29

with the CEO of Cape Group yesterday to talk

21:31

about she's doing our fireside chat

21:33

, and one of the things we were talking about is you

21:36

know , authenticity is in right now . Right Like

21:38

this is in fashion , but I

21:41

think we owe it to our workforce

21:43

to give them some guidelines

21:46

around what authenticity looks like . That

21:49

doesn't mean you know , for

21:53

lack of a I always think of like . It doesn't mean

21:55

that you show up like you're in Home Depot on a Saturday

21:57

morning . It doesn't mean that you speak

21:59

to me like you know what I mean . I remember there was this weird comparison

22:02

of like what you would wear to work versus

22:06

what you wear to Home Depot is kind of the way that goes .

22:08

But like so we want to be authentic

22:11

.

22:11

We want to be true to our beliefs because

22:13

it makes our lived experience better and

22:16

it makes you know we get one life to live and

22:18

I don't want to spend it pretending I'm someone else . But

22:20

I also don't need everyone to know

22:23

every single bit of my flaws , and I

22:25

don't authentically . I slept in today

22:27

, so I'm not coming in until like these things

22:29

are you know . So we have to put some guidance

22:31

around what that authenticity looks like . And

22:33

also on the flip side and I think

22:36

you see this a lot more now is that

22:38

people coming into the workforce are looking harder

22:40

at whether they are an authentic fit for

22:42

the environment that they join . So

22:45

, you have . You know those two things have to come

22:47

together . But I

22:49

also believe that if

22:51

you never tell anyone what they're doing wrong , they're

22:53

going to keep doing it . And we owe it

22:55

to the people we work with to give

22:58

them feedback on things that are happening and

23:00

they don't . As someone told me once , feedback

23:03

is a gift . The only response is thank

23:05

you , and then you walk away and you can decide

23:07

whether you implement that feedback . And so you

23:10

know , you think , with staff , I'll give you feedback . You

23:12

don't have to love it . If you don't adopt

23:14

it , then eventually we maybe we're going to go separate

23:17

ways , but at least you've

23:19

not , I've not sat there going . She

23:21

should know , he should know , they should know . And

23:24

then you know we go separate ways without

23:26

talking about it .

23:28

You need to do a cadence workshop to

23:30

school everybody about that . The tone is like

23:32

yeah , okay , I get it , I like that

23:34

you have a talent of being able to do that . Yeah

23:38

, she's doing a little workshop for people . Like , okay

23:40

, this is how you give people bad news .

23:43

Wait , I have to tell you you will love this , and

23:45

I wish I had some of my former staff sitting

23:47

here , because I read an article the other day that made me giggle and

23:49

I wanted to send it to them because

23:51

they used to accuse me of being the queen of

23:53

the compliment sandwich . I

23:56

would say oh wow , you did a great job at that . Could

23:58

have done better with this , but you did a great job at that . And

24:01

then I read an article the other day that said the

24:03

compliment sandwich is out . It's

24:05

not a way to give feedback . I don't

24:07

know that I do it anymore , Do I Craig ? Maybe

24:10

a little bit .

24:11

It's probably like a negotiating technique yes

24:13

, yes . I think , craig , you know , we

24:15

said this like two parts sugar , one part vinegar

24:17

.

24:18

Yes , yes , but yeah that's kind of

24:20

cool .

24:21

Okay , well , this is a short

24:23

interview today . Love it , but I just wanted

24:25

you to come by and see

24:27

both of you .

24:29

Well , we really appreciate the invitation and

24:31

hopefully you guys are going to join us at 3.30 for

24:33

cocktails in the VRCA connector lounge

24:35

.

24:35

Cocktails . I like that word .

24:37

Yes .

24:37

That's good . It's my favorite word Free

24:41

. Okay , All right , Janine , thank

24:43

you very much for coming by . That was really

24:46

really good . I think we got some good

24:48

nuggets there .

24:49

James , thanks for the invitation . I appreciate

24:51

it .

24:51

Thank you very much

25:06

. Well , that does it for another episode of the Site Visit

25:08

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25:10

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25:39

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