0:00

Angus , thank you very much for joining me today

0:02

. We're going to be together in Whistler

0:04

at the CLF event coming up this

0:07

week . You looking forward to that . Fired

0:09

up , can't wait , of

0:28

the things , the themes that you're taking from team sports into

0:30

how we operate throughout our lives , and motivation

0:32

, trust , being able to battle through things

0:34

. Do you think today

0:36

, to some degree , we're

0:39

losing that a little bit and you think we need to get it back

0:41

?

0:43

I think we're losing it , and I think we're losing it and

0:45

I think we're losing it from two ends of the equation

0:47

. I'm not sure enough leaders

0:50

today maybe recognize the

0:52

importance of being intentional about it and or

0:54

know exactly how to be intentional about

0:56

it , and because I think we're losing , on the back

0:58

end , the organic growth of our workforce

1:00

having gone through it traditionally , because we just

1:03

don't have as many people

1:05

engaging in the team youth sports

1:07

environments like we used to , where it was basically

1:10

a rite of passage you played some form of team sport

1:12

, you went out with your friends , you tried

1:14

things , you fought hard together , you got in trouble

1:16

, you figured it out . Those don't happen

1:18

as naturally anymore , and so

1:20

I think you're getting a younger workforce

1:22

that comes in where it's not already embedded in them . So

1:24

you need leaders now to be very

1:26

intentional on creating those environments and

1:29

you need to be careful with it too , because

1:31

it's going to be new for a lot of people and that can be

1:33

scary . But without the abilities

1:35

to do those things , I don't think businesses

1:37

have a chance of solving problems

1:40

, sticking together , retaining employees .

1:54

So , yeah , I think it's more important than ever

1:57

because it's not as embedded in our upbringing

1:59

as it used to be . I would say Welcome

2:01

to the Site , Visit Podcast . Leadership and perspective from construction with your

2:03

host James Faulkner .

2:03

Business as usual , as it has been for so long , now that it goes

2:06

back to what we were talking about before and hitting the reset

2:08

button .

2:08

You know you read all the books , you read the

2:10

email , you read Scaling Up , you read Good to

2:12

Great .

2:13

You know I could go on no-transcript

2:27

out front of the site show .

2:29

yesterday I was down in Dallas and

2:31

a guy just hit me up on

2:33

LinkedIn out of the blue and said he was

2:35

driving from Oklahoma to Dallas to meet

2:37

with me because he heard the Favourite Connect

2:40

platform on your guys' podcast

2:42

Home .

2:42

It crush it and love it and we celebrate

2:45

these values every single day .

2:46

Let's get down to it . Let's do it . Was

2:52

there something to be said for using

2:56

an example of ? I

2:58

mean , you know this from being in team sports . You know that there

3:01

were some star players that

3:03

might've come onto a team where you might've experienced

3:06

this throughout your not even your

3:08

just your professional career , but even when you're

3:10

coming up and playing football from an early

3:12

age . Um , kids

3:15

that knew how good they were

3:17

and were kind of bratty on the field

3:19

and you're and the rest of the team is like look , we

3:21

can't have this kind

3:23

of thing where you're entitled just

3:25

because you're talented . Everyone here

3:28

has to work hard . We have to work as a team

3:30

. Would you say that all

3:32

a lot of today's younger

3:36

generation and we don't want to attack them because

3:38

my generation did this to

3:40

them , so I'm complicit in this whole thing did

3:45

this to them , so I'm complicit in this whole thing Um , do you think that we have created people

3:47

who constantly think they're all star players and no one wants to play with the

3:49

team or doesn't is too dysfunctional

3:51

to know how a team dynamic works ?

3:54

Yeah , you know we always have to be careful to generalize

3:56

, but I coach youth sports now too , so

3:58

I see the downfall

4:01

of our generation , failing

4:03

our youth in terms of constantly

4:06

praising everybody , without the challenges

4:09

and the understanding of reality that everybody

4:11

needs to contribute . Everybody's not perfect , everybody's

4:14

not the best , and that's good and that's

4:16

okay . So , on two levels , I think you

4:18

know you have to have that environment where

4:20

peers navigate each other

4:22

. You know peers sort of police each other , but

4:25

you also and this is where we failed and

4:27

this is where leaders become very important what

4:29

gets praised gets repeated and what

4:31

gets allowed gets acknowledged

4:34

as fine . So if you , if you

4:36

let a kid run around and think they're the best and think

4:38

it's okay , then how do they know they're not

4:40

? And if you only praise natural

4:42

gifts and talent , they're automatically going

4:44

to think they're better than needing to work

4:46

hard . So , once again , it's

4:49

up to the leadership and the adults to set

4:52

what reality is about . Everybody's

4:54

at different levels , and that's fine , but everyone's expected

4:57

to contribute , be a part of something and work to get

4:59

better wherever you're at in your scale , and

5:01

that , to me , is a baseline at leadership

5:03

, where here's our collective goals Everybody

5:05

has to contribute , and contribute means supporting

5:08

everyone else in moving

5:11

forward to their goals . So we win as a team . And

5:13

what's going to get praised here is

5:15

your effort to contribute , your effort to

5:18

improve , your effort to do

5:20

the things that are going to require to help the ball move

5:22

forward for the team . And if you praise

5:25

anything other than that , that's not

5:27

the player's fault , that's the coach's fault

5:29

, because we are again

5:31

setting expectations

5:34

. You know , we only know what's good by what we're

5:36

told , and that's again

5:38

why I talked at the beginning . I

5:40

think it's more important than ever for leadership to be very

5:42

intentional on our expectations

5:45

and then not just saying you know , this

5:47

is our expectations , but on a daily basis

5:49

, what are we praising , what are we rewarding , what

5:51

are we allowing ? Because that's what's going to get

5:53

viewed as good and bad . And you

5:56

know , if you're allowed to get away with stuff , then you think you're special

5:58

and

6:03

if you're fair with people , I think you're going to gain a lot of respect

6:05

. If you play favoritism or pick favorites based on other things , your culture will

6:07

dictate that I don't think you'll have a long-term

6:09

success as a leader .

6:10

Yeah , yeah , that's

6:13

a really good point . Would you say that you

6:18

talk about trust a lot , and

6:20

I love that acronym

6:22

. You had to resolve unusual situations

6:24

together . That is

6:26

really awesome , I mean , when I hear that it's

6:29

such a great thing to have . Everybody

6:32

likes sound bites , everybody likes things

6:34

that are short and succulent , and you can usually

6:36

remember those salient points where everyone

6:38

can just sort of rally around , and that

6:41

trust acronym is really good . I think you were

6:43

given that example by somebody , I believe .

6:48

Yeah , my great coach , my positional coach , dan D'Orazio . I mean , I wrote a book about the man and

6:50

he taught me all the things that matter in life , and

6:52

he did it through coaching football . And that's where my big

6:54

message to leadership is , and I don't

6:57

care if it's big business or sports . We're

6:59

there to get that . That's the micro level of

7:01

what we're doing , but there's a greater influence . You're

7:04

always teaching bigger principles to people right Within

7:06

the given of your day and and and

7:08

hopefully they're taking your messaging and being able to apply

7:10

to more than just work . And so

7:12

trust isn't just you know , you don't just want to trust them

7:14

on the football field , but never trust them anywhere else or

7:17

trust them in the day job . But you know out

7:19

in the world , no , no chance , because then

7:21

they don't build congruency and credibility as an individual

7:23

. There's someone you actually can't trust because you know

7:25

they're one way here and they're a different way over here

7:28

. You want to build yourself around people

7:30

that they are honestly

7:32

trying to bring their best to help solve

7:34

problems , not honestly trying to bring their best to make

7:36

sure they look the best and to get what they can

7:38

get out of the situation and leverage everything

7:40

for themselves . Because you know it's

7:43

one thing to trust yourself , that's fine

7:45

. But very few of us , if any

7:47

, in this world , if you really look at it , operate

7:49

in silos . We're always working with somebody

7:51

else somehow , we're always doing things together

7:54

and your team can

7:56

only move at the speed of trust

7:58

. And the level of trust will dictate

8:00

, not the level of talent , not the size of

8:02

your budget , not even your

8:05

credibility in the marketplace . That will eradicate very

8:07

quickly if trust . Trust

8:09

will always be the barometer that people

8:11

will do business with you . That's it . Everything

8:18

else is subject to how you feel today and what I really think you're trying to

8:20

get out of this . And the nice thing is that's a controllable . You

8:22

can decide how to act . But that's got to be led

8:24

, that's got to be taught , that's got to be coached

8:27

, that's got to be praised , that's got to be modeled

8:29

intentionally . You

8:31

can't just kind of hope and I spoke about that too a lot

8:33

. Hope isn't a strategy and you can't

8:36

just hope . You have a good trust environment . That's

8:38

got to be really diligently built .

8:42

With the word trust when I think

8:45

of let's just talk about the younger generation

8:47

, because that's really who we're trying to attract here

8:49

, correct ? Because the labor

8:51

force is super short and we got to get this going

8:53

. Um , I

8:56

think the younger folk

8:59

trust in things that they take for granted

9:01

, that they don't have to think about . They trust

9:03

that their phones are going to work . They trust that you

9:05

know the police are going to show up if something goes wrong . They trust

9:07

traffic lights . They trust things

9:09

that they just don't think about . But

9:12

when it comes to trust of themselves

9:14

and trust

9:16

of those around them , we're

9:18

seeing a kind of a crumbling of trust

9:22

in government trust in , you

9:26

know , the police , the corporation

9:29

, the foundation , leadership Seeing trust in

9:31

leadership , yes , but also

9:33

trust in the foundations of our country's

9:35

history , like we've done everything wrong

9:38

. So there's

9:40

this sort of boiling of I

9:42

don't trust the man or the person

9:44

, or the person that is paying

9:46

me or the company that is

9:48

paying my company that is paying me , like

9:51

that waterfall effect of trust all

9:53

the way down from the stream in order for

9:55

that person to show up on the job

10:08

site on time . Listen to people

10:10

, make sure that when they're in

10:12

that huddle we'll talk about that in a bit that

10:16

they actually have some

10:18

consciousness around that

10:20

job site and it's not just a job and

10:22

realize that the opportunity they have , if

10:24

they focus , can be a fantastic

10:27

career for them . What would you say

10:29

to what I just said there

10:31

in terms of having more

10:33

of a holistic macro philosophy

10:38

around trust ?

10:41

I agree with everything you said and I think

10:43

it's very lazy and naive and

10:46

wrong for

10:48

this generation's leaders . The now and I'll speak

10:50

about this on Saturday at the convention

10:53

. My

11:07

big message is you know you can't now lead

11:09

with , just trust us . It doesn't make sense and

11:11

you can't even trust them first because

11:13

that's not based on anything

11:16

. Everything is transactional until

11:18

it's not , and this generation is very transactional

11:20

with relationships because they live online

11:22

Not that we don't , but they're raised

11:25

online first . A lot of us have come

11:27

to online already , having buddies that we

11:29

got in trouble with and had a hold

11:31

of secrets with , and all that good stuff , right

11:33

, Raised

11:37

online . So everything is transactional first . Make

11:40

10,000 friends on whatever social media site they live on

11:42

, and people defriend them or unfriend them or refriend

11:44

them in two seconds and like or dislike by clicks of

11:46

buttons . There's no depth to it , right and and

11:48

that's a baseline for how they view the world . It's in

11:50

, it's out . It's no big deal . There's always something . Tomorrow , we'll

11:52

just , we'll just roll through things . And my big

11:55

question now , you know , principally

11:57

, to get anyone from zero to

11:59

one to even begin this journey

12:01

of even thinking about trusting . My

12:04

big message to all the leaders in the environment I talk

12:06

about creating is how do you get

12:08

somebody to care , how

12:10

do you get someone to care about the

12:13

job they've signed up for , to care

12:15

, to show up tomorrow , to care , to even

12:17

want to trust ? And my big

12:19

message back to us as leaders are you

12:21

know , I don't believe you can make somebody care or tell someone to care , but I't

12:23

believe you can make make somebody care or tell someone to care . But

12:26

I do believe you

12:28

can care about them first as an individual

12:31

and you can be hyper-intentional about

12:33

little things to make it not transactional

12:35

. And there and our youth isn't that used

12:38

to that Everything's a text , everything's a social media message

12:40

, everything's an emoji . There's not as much face-to-face

12:42

human interaction to let someone know hey , message

12:44

Everything's an emoji . There's not as much face-to-face human interaction to let someone know , hey , we really

12:46

, really are grateful you're here today and that eye contact

12:49

that is missing from today's world . And you

12:51

say it tomorrow . And then you point out something they did really

12:53

good yesterday Go , that is outstanding work

12:55

. You are really making a difference here and

12:58

those don't happen very often in today's world and it

13:00

doesn't cost much . But you might say , hey , I've never heard anyone

13:02

say that before . I like this person . Why

13:05

? Because they took interest in me and they did five

13:07

more seconds than most people have to

13:09

make me realize I matter

13:11

. James , wow , you noticed it , and

13:13

that might be enough to go . This place

13:15

is a little different . Usually no one cares about anyone , so

13:17

why would I care ? And

13:19

if you can give someone a reason to maybe care

13:21

by caring first , maybe they

13:24

stick around by tomorrow . And you know , we talked

13:26

about the talk , about my Ted talk . Trust

13:28

has to be built over time . It has to be repetitions

13:30

of interactions . So the trick is how do

13:32

we get someone to stick around long enough to trust

13:34

?

13:35

Yeah , the time is hard right , you need the time

13:37

.

13:37

So if you're quitting every two weeks because it's

13:39

not fun or you just don't like it , you'll never

13:41

get to first base and you can never round

13:43

the bases , you'll never score . And

13:47

so can we buy time by making it a caring culture , which

13:49

is , you know , opposite of the old sports world , opposite

13:51

of the construction world where it was just tough , macho and

13:53

toughen up kid . How do we make someone

13:56

realize , hey , we're really value , showing up

13:58

to them ? I

14:02

really appreciate trust . And then , once they trust

14:04

, now you might be able to coach them , now

14:06

you might be able to develop them . But if they won't

14:08

stick around because it's transactional , everything's

14:10

viewed as you're an ass Screw

14:13

, you , you don't know me , you don't care about me , because it's viewed

14:15

as negative connotation If you're coaching them

14:17

or critiquing them . So you got to kind of flip

14:19

the script . I think and I've seen it with our young athletes

14:21

that will quit football at a heartbeat because

14:24

it's hard and it sucks and they look like they're always

14:26

getting yelled at . If you can make them realize

14:28

you care about them for real and

14:30

I'm very , very appreciative you showed up today they

14:33

might stick around . And if they stick around you might

14:35

be able to get them realize there's some value

14:37

in this belonging . There's some value . People

14:40

do care , but if you're not intentional , they

14:43

won't buy it . They won't buy it . So you

14:45

know , I don't think there's a perfect answer , but we we need to

14:47

do what we can instead of blaming

14:49

blaming

14:54

our youth for being the way they

14:56

are because of the , because of the reality that we , we constructed it .

14:58

Yeah , I mean we , it is true , we did uh construct

15:00

it . However , there has been , you

15:02

know , the influence of technology , which only

15:04

some people constructed . That

15:07

, you know , isn't the , uh , the

15:09

workings of every Gen X or baby

15:11

boomer person . They , you know we

15:14

didn't all create an Instagram or tech talk

15:16

. You know other people did Um

15:18

so , but

15:20

it's . It's almost become the

15:22

, the , the perfect storm , if

15:25

you will , of entitlement

15:29

and then suddenly , specialism

15:32

. A kid has to feel special

15:34

, so it's whatever they can do to feel special at

15:36

that time . What

15:38

I find interesting about

15:40

I've got a friend that plays in the

15:44

CFL now and plays for the Lions , and

15:47

you know , I kind of understand the

15:49

dichotomy between NFL and CFL

15:52

. You know , just in terms of

15:54

, you know pay scale , for

15:56

instance , and how much money is in it , and

16:20

just have an example , just a question for you

16:22

is does it feel like , if you were to come

16:24

from the kind of pay scale that

16:26

in the NFL or some of these large college teams , like coming

16:29

from NFL to the CFL

16:31

? In terms of the reality of ? You

16:34

know , a construction job has a budget . It

16:36

only can go so far . It can only do so

16:38

many programs . It can only do so many things

16:40

, and it isn't necessary

16:43

. Not every construction job is

16:45

the latest . You know big hospital

16:48

in Vancouver it's , you

16:50

know it could be a commercial TI . That's

16:52

only , you know , $500,000

16:55

. You know it's not everything's a $2

16:57

billion project . So you

16:59

know what . Do you think there's something to be said for ? That

17:02

, in terms of construction , has its limitations

17:04

on how far it can get . And the

17:06

reason what made me think about this is when you were saying

17:08

how much time do we have

17:10

? Well , time is money in construction . It

17:13

just is , and we have to

17:17

play the long game in

17:20

order to invest in the time

17:22

with people . Sometimes

17:26

the owners may feel I

17:28

don't have time for this , like this job , is

17:30

the schedule here , if so-and-so is

17:32

not going to , like you know , give me the

17:35

kind of attention that this job needs

17:37

in this timeframe , like I got to get someone

17:39

else .

17:40

Right . So I think that's a very

17:42

fair point . And you know I my

17:44

response . I work with a lot of businesses , some

17:47

in construction , some in manufacturing , you know , all

17:49

in very process oriented

17:51

time , money , like you know , everything is on the

17:53

clock and and I and I can

17:55

appreciate that . And then my response

17:57

is always the same Do you have , do you have , time to

17:59

keep looking and rehiring people ? Which

18:01

one takes longer ? If you're constantly

18:03

looking for new people and everyone's quitting every two weeks , is

18:05

that efficient ? Is that the efficient mode here

18:07

? Or the little extra time and space

18:10

to potentially keep longer people ? And I don't

18:12

know the metrics of every answer , but everyone's

18:14

complaining about turnover . Everybody right

18:16

, we can't get people for the jobs and they're quitting

18:18

so fast . So I'm not going to spend

18:20

any more time than they want and we'll just keep going down that road

18:22

. And so you look at you

18:24

know what is the upside to spending a little

18:26

extra to try to retain , versus the constant

18:28

cycle of trying to find more people all the time . And

18:31

then that is your culture . Your culture is always

18:33

never ending change of people . You have nobody

18:36

that's embedded instead of some people , and

18:38

again , there's got to be trade-off . To how much time do you

18:40

spend ? But to me , it's you know , are

18:42

we going to start trying to solve the problem or are we going to keep

18:44

complaining about it and being upset

18:46

that people aren't what we wish they were ? And I think you used

18:48

a great word there , james , and I think

18:51

it's probably the

18:53

most real word of the crux of all the

18:55

problems on both sides of the equation , and that's expectation

18:57

. Right ? Young person has high expectations

19:00

of what they expect . Everything else sucks . Owners

19:02

have expectations . You could be like us . You

19:05

should be like me . Like why aren't you committed to the work and we're paying

19:07

you good money ? Neither side

19:09

kind of understands the other side's reality anymore

19:12

and we expect it to be what we

19:14

know it to be . And our old business owners are like

19:16

you should be lucky , you have a job . Well , they don't feel lucky

19:18

. That's not their reality anymore . They get

19:20

a job anywhere . They really can't . They'll get

19:22

a job tomorrow . Everyone's trying to hire the same people . So you

19:25

can think they should be appreciative , but they're not . Because

19:27

they don't know what to be , because you said , they've grown up never

19:29

needing to realize it's impossible to get work . They're

19:31

on the other side of the equation and our youth needs

19:33

to understand . Here's the other thing I learned

19:36

too at at the default

19:38

of anything else or at the

19:40

default of anyone emphasizing anything else . Most people just

19:42

lean on money as good , right , so if

19:44

I don't know anything else , then more money means I'm winning . Bigger

19:47

project means better because I don't know anything

19:49

else , and and and . Not that there's an ultimate

19:51

win here . But like NFL is better than CFL

19:54

. Why they get paid more like that ? That's

20:00

the default argument to anything . Until you , till you maybe learn nuance to be like I didn't know

20:02

that , I didn't appreciate that . So you know , if we leave things without

20:04

any type of story or narration

20:07

, money always is the answer . Small

20:09

, oh , this project's stupid because it's not much money . Bottom

20:12

line is you and I both know you line up and put

20:14

your hand on the ground and play football . You're putting your hand on the ground and

20:16

play football . You're doing construction . You're building something

20:18

, whether it's deemed a small or

20:20

big , in the absence

20:22

of any understanding or appreciation

20:24

how great it is what you're doing . You're

20:26

going to be like it sucks because I'm not getting paid . The same , it's

20:29

the same thing . It's the same job . Scale

20:31

, scale is scale , but

20:33

there's also the emphasis of making people

20:35

realize what we're doing here is special . And

20:38

again that you're right , james , that

20:40

takes time . Time is money . But

20:42

if you can let some , why do we go to the movies ? Because

20:45

we think it's more impressive than our normal life , Our life's

20:47

boring . If you can make things

20:49

a bigger deal by how you treat

20:51

the environment and does it get everyone on board

20:53

? No , but some people are like I didn't realize

20:55

this , so it's a stupid little job . This is like what we're

20:57

doing is a big deal here . Okay , it takes . This is like what we're

20:59

doing is a big deal here . Okay , that it takes more time . Or

21:01

you can have people that think this job sucks and they'll act

21:03

appropriately . You get an NFL guy to the

21:06

CFL not getting paid very much comparatively

21:08

, so I'm not going to give you very much . If

21:11

you don't make it a bigger deal to them , you'll get the appropriate

21:13

labor out of them . And so , again , you

21:16

know we can lean on them and say you should think it's

21:18

a bigger deal . Can

21:22

lean on them and say you should think it's a bigger deal you should bring on why ? Why should I care about

21:24

your company ? You're paying me X . I'll just give you this until you fire me ? I

21:27

believe we can if we want

21:29

to give opportunities for our

21:31

youth to realize this is pretty cool . I

21:33

am going to be more . This is kind of a cool

21:35

company . They actually care . Maybe I'll give

21:37

a little more effort than I need to . Maybe I'll stick

21:39

around longer because today I don't feel like showing up

21:41

. But hey , these are good people . I'm going to show

21:43

up today Instead of rolling on

21:45

knee-jerk feelings of like I don't want to

21:47

do this and who cares about this job ? Because no one cares about

21:49

me . Maybe we can create environments

21:51

where you get the

21:53

discretionary effort . You win the

21:56

tiebreakers when they can quit tomorrow but they decide

21:58

not to and yes , that will take a little

22:00

more , but I'm going to argue is that more

22:02

than constantly having to find and

22:04

replace workers forever and that

22:06

is your culture ? That's not a culture I'd want

22:08

to have as a business owner . We just have transient workers forever

22:10

and that's what we got , and we have people

22:12

that are proud of their work and they quit all the time . I

22:15

don't want that as my brand .

22:17

Yeah , no-transcript

22:43

. So

22:48

you hit on something that just made me think that

22:50

when there's a moral

22:52

framework , I think with some people

22:54

and you see this with

22:57

a lot of people who have

23:00

a

23:04

religious background , who

23:06

have a moral framework that they follow about

23:08

being kind , not thinking about themselves

23:10

serving other people , and that's more of a community

23:13

thing . I've seen that here

23:15

. But aside from that , but

23:18

aside from that , is

23:21

it almost as though you have to foster

23:23

a sense of corporate

23:25

altruism that the

23:28

employee has

23:31

to deploy , which would be considered over

23:33

and above the transaction of employer-employee

23:37

hourly wage

23:39

. So

23:47

let me just clarify , make my point more clear . So if someone's

23:49

getting paid let's just call it $20 an hour Someone does

23:51

the job , does the hours , there's

23:53

the transaction . That's what the job description

23:55

was . But now we have this , okay

23:58

. Well , now we want you to do a huddle before

24:00

. Now , we want you to think about your job

24:02

for the next day . Now we want you to

24:04

think of the company and I

24:07

want you to have a good attitude . I want you to do all

24:09

these other things that the employee might consider

24:11

altruistic . This

24:14

is extra , this is something that suddenly

24:16

I have to find an interest in

24:18

a company that I

24:20

don't know

24:23

if I will be at for a long time , so

24:25

that altruism is an investment that

24:28

I actually , as the employee , have to

24:30

put forth . So

24:33

what are your comments to that

24:35

philosophy

24:37

?

24:39

So I think it comes back to and I agree with

24:41

you again if we look at and

24:43

this is where expectations and just general

24:46

principle-based thinking is . I

24:48

, if I'm a business owner , I want

24:51

to move the people . I

24:53

want to shift the perspective of who

24:55

we're looking for beyond simply

24:57

a transactional employee-employer

25:00

relationship . If so , then

25:02

my business name means nothing , nothing matters

25:04

except for your check , and if that is the only thing that

25:06

matters , then I don't matter . Then

25:09

, of course , you're going to look for a buck more an hour every

25:11

moment of your life . Why wouldn't you ? Why

25:14

wouldn't you ? Right ? I'm irrelevant

25:16

. What name my company is and what we stand for and our core

25:18

values , all that stuff's garbage . It's just 20

25:20

bucks until someone gives you 2050

25:24

. And , and , and if I asked you a little bit more , because we care more

25:26

, of course , I would tell you leave , because

25:28

I don't care about you . I'm telling you

25:30

I don't care about you . I , you are somebody

25:32

that is $20 an hour labor for your , for your

25:34

body . You move on , good riddance Like

25:37

you're irrelevant as a human

25:39

being . That's what you're saying . So

25:41

if you write your core mission statements and values and

25:43

stuff , why ? Why we give $20 an hour

25:45

for if we can train a dog to do it , just

25:47

come do it . We

25:53

want people that believe in whatever we believe in

25:55

, like whatever you guys stand for

25:57

, and if that matters , you better give them a reason to care about

25:59

. You Comes back to the beginning , then I better care about you , james

26:01

, if I want you to care about our stuff and here's the thing

26:03

Then you allow people to vet themselves

26:06

. That's what I've always said . You don't kick

26:08

people off the bus . You invite people that actually

26:10

want to do more than transactional . And the problem

26:12

with today's youth is their baseline

26:14

is just transaction , because they've grown up in transactional

26:17

relationships friendships , online social world . But

26:19

you know , and I know deep down , human

26:21

beings were tribal by nature . We need to

26:23

belong to somewhere . Nobody wants to wander this earth alone

26:26

. It's terrifying . It's been embedded in our DNA

26:28

. We want to know we matter , we're part

26:30

of a group . Someone's got our back right . That's why so

26:32

many kids these days grow up with anxiety because everything's

26:34

online A million friends they've never met commenting

26:37

on them . They're freaking out . Who's got my back ? Who

26:39

actually gives a damn about me ? And if you can

26:41

build an environment , a work world where you

26:44

show them , you're actually important here beyond

26:46

your $20 of human labor force , which

26:48

I don't even know your name . I don't want to know your name . I don't

26:50

need to know your name because you are irrelevant

26:52

. You work for 20 bucks . Make

26:55

someone feel a little bit more important . You'll

26:58

get people . That kind of matters

27:01

to us and deep down , it matters to most . Just , some people don't

27:03

gravitate to as much , so you keep the

27:05

people that matters , which is nice . You're not forcing

27:07

it on someone . So , james , that doesn't matter to you . Maybe

27:10

we're not the company for you , that's okay , but

27:12

we want people here that want

27:14

to matter a little more and we're going to make you matter more . So you'll

27:16

probably give a little more , because now you're part of

27:18

something and you're right . Some people

27:20

are just sweeping up the site , but I've been in football

27:22

organizations the highest organizations where some

27:25

people treat their secretaries like platinum gold

27:27

and some people treat them like $20 an hour

27:29

secretaries . And the ones that get pleaded like platinum

27:31

gold answer the phones better , they stay

27:34

longer , they're not on LinkedIn looking for other jobs

27:36

. The other people are looking for a buck more because if that's

27:38

all they are , let's see if I can squeeze another dollar to

27:40

somebody else , and that's a subtle difference

27:42

between how you're treating them and it's intentional

27:45

. And so then you're known

27:47

as that culture , and so better people want to work for

27:49

that company because they care a little more . Oh , but you got

27:51

a buck more over here . Yeah , I can get a buck more , but this

27:54

is a cool place . You're not going to get

27:56

everybody , but you're going to get people that want that

27:58

and the people that want that . If they find it , hey

28:00

, maybe they stay a little longer , maybe

28:03

they want to grow . I'm invested in trying to make

28:05

you grow . We're going to treat you really well here and

28:07

we're going to push you hard . That's big and

28:09

that's the trick . Even in the football world , no different

28:12

than the construction world , we

28:15

can't make life easier because it's brutal out there . We have to be better than everyone trying to beat

28:17

our ass right , and we need you to be tough and

28:20

hard and firm . But that's wrapped

28:22

under the guise that we care about you and

28:24

that's why we're going to help you become really good , and

28:26

I want people that want that , and I saw

28:28

it in the sports world , where it's cutthroat . Certain

28:30

coaches push people under the guise of caring

28:33

and certain people push them under the guise of fear You'll

28:35

lose your job if you don't do it . People are

28:37

terrified and anxious because I got to feed my family

28:39

Other people the

28:41

threat of getting cut is always the same , but

28:43

at least people care about me . That doesn't mean I got a job

28:45

tomorrow , but people actually care

28:47

about me as an individual . So now when they're pushing

28:49

me , it's because I know you want to help me get better

28:51

, not because you don't care about me one little bit

28:53

. And there is a difference .

28:56

This podcast is brought to you by SiteMax

28:59

, the complete job site management platform

29:01

built for construction . So

29:03

, whether you're a GC or a sub

29:05

trade , this platform will help you get

29:07

control and give you visibility

29:10

on your job site . If

29:19

you have multiple apps in the field and want to consolidate down to one simple app so your people can just

29:21

get back to building , SitemMax is for you . And also if you've been in a large construction

29:23

software platform and you're just finding you're not using it all

29:25

and maybe it's costing

29:27

you too much money and you need to be more agile

29:30

in your business decisions , then SiteMax

29:32

is also a choice for you . So if you're looking

29:34

for a change , book a demo at sitemaxcloud

29:37

and let one of their fantastic people be

29:39

there to help you through your software needs

29:41

, again , that is sitemaxcloud

29:43

. Now let's get back

29:45

to the episode . It seems as though

29:48

there's this current , that's

29:50

like this river of confirmation

29:52

bias that in

29:55

the employees' off

29:57

time that they're continuously

30:00

being inundated

30:02

with and they're constantly being inundated with that

30:06

is , is , is this so ? Just imagine , it's

30:08

just sort of a visual metaphor . For instance , let's

30:10

just say that , as a leader like as I'm listening

30:12

to you , angus , I'm like man

30:14

. If every leader

30:16

in a construction company sounded like you and

30:19

had the charisma and the communication

30:21

skills and the energy and I

30:23

mean you you crush it

30:25

because you just you

30:27

I mean everyone everyone would hope that they

30:29

sound and and , uh , they

30:31

sound and emit this kind of energy that you have like

30:49

which is another whole conversation you're almost pulling them out of the river of this confirmation

30:51

bias , this negativity , this constant

30:54

instant feedback that they want online

30:56

, and you're pulling them out of the river onto

30:58

the shore for a minute . They're

31:00

drying off and they're realizing what the real

31:03

world is like on land . And

31:06

on land is what's really

31:08

going on , like in construction

31:11

, and you can , as they're drawing

31:13

off , you can go look , do you need something to eat ? You've

31:16

been paddling for a while . You were up here

31:18

like up land 20

31:20

minutes ago . Now you've flown all the way down here

31:22

. This

31:24

giving people a reprieve

31:26

. My worry is is that , even

31:29

though every time that they

31:32

show up at the job site today , it's like the leader

31:34

is pulling them out of the river , getting

31:36

them to dry off , but every night

31:38

they go jump back in the river again and

31:40

it makes it difficult . So what's probably

31:43

tiring for the business owner or leader

31:45

is that they're like I'm tired of pulling these

31:47

people out of the river . They go in it every

31:49

night and there's a reason why . You

31:52

know this latest legislation where they're saying that

31:54

kids can't have cell phones in schools . There's

31:56

a reason for that . The reason it's super

31:59

dysfunctional . I watch it with my family

32:01

. Downtime is

32:04

not reading . Downtime is not even watching

32:06

TV anymore . It's screen time

32:08

, and it's so bad , as

32:10

much as I love it and I'm a technologist , don't

32:13

get me wrong but death

32:15

scrolling for that next algorithm

32:17

that's going to give you that confirmation bias

32:19

of the last 10 things that interested

32:21

you , that you waited on that extra video

32:23

or it played twice . Man

32:26

, it's like we got . Like we

32:28

have to find some way

32:31

of providing some huge

32:33

uptick for the people

32:36

in construction . I've got some ideas around

32:38

this and

32:40

we can talk about this at Whistler . I look forward to meeting

32:42

you in person , by the way . Now

32:46

let me just ask you another thing . So when you

32:48

talk about teams , for instance , now

32:51

teams , obviously , when

32:53

you're on the football field and

32:55

, uh , you know you were playing offensive line

32:57

, I mean , as you say , you're like the smallest guy there

32:59

, even though you're 300 pounds . Um , one

33:02

thing that you said on your tech talk , which I thought was really

33:04

cool , that the trust that you had , like you're one of the only

33:06

positions in any sport that

33:09

your back is to the ball . Yeah , never

33:11

see it . You never see it , which is so

33:13

crazy . Like what an amazing

33:15

observation that is , because

33:17

if you actually just sit there and think for it , like

33:19

you think tennis , you think golf , you think the ball's always

33:21

in front of you .

33:22

You kind of playing blind almost . Yeah , I know .

33:29

It . Oh , it's crazy . It's such a great metaphor . I love it so , um , but when

33:31

you , when you're talking about teams , obviously you know in football you are

33:33

, you have a , you have a clear adversary . Other

33:37

Jersey color , that simple other side of

33:39

the field , they're trying to do what they're trying to do , you're

33:42

trying to do what they're in . It's complete clash

33:44

of energy . Now , with

33:46

construction , you have teams

33:49

. However , the time

33:52

the budget is

33:54

, the other team is

33:57

the adversary . That is what you're fighting against

33:59

. So what's interesting is that ? So

34:01

, let's say , with

34:03

the first team

34:05

that's on the field , the weird thing

34:07

is that you have a whole bunch of other little

34:09

teams , micro teams , that show

34:12

up , and these are the sub-trades . Yep , Now

34:14

, the game

34:17

that your coach might have played . They've drawn

34:19

it on the board for you , you guys . Okay , this is the

34:21

play we're going to be doing today . This

34:24

is the culture of the team , and that is the

34:26

primary team . Let's say that's the general contractor's

34:28

team . Maybe they have some self-performing people there

34:30

. They got superintendents , they got foremen

34:32

, they

34:37

got all these site supervisors , all that kind of stuff . But then the

34:39

sub-trades come and they have their own team game too

34:41

, and they have their own culture as well , and

34:44

they might be going through player

34:46

changes . There's

34:49

a whole bunch of stuff going on there and when you think of how

34:51

many sub-trades there are on a factor

34:53

from one to 20

34:56

, 30 , 40 different sub-trade , different

34:58

types of companies that show up on a job site to finish

35:01

a building , you are talking about

35:03

a ton of nuanced

35:06

, crazy dynamics

35:08

, social dynamics , business dynamics

35:11

, procedural dynamics that are

35:13

all very different . So what would you say

35:15

to that ? With the huddle mentality

35:17

, how do you get a philosophical

35:20

macro huddle together

35:22

without having everybody like

35:25

a toolbox ? Talk with every single trade is impossible

35:27

, because they're not all showing at the same time

35:29

. You know they're not all there

35:32

at once . Yeah , just because of the progression

35:34

of a build .

35:35

I think you've raised a very interesting point

35:37

and you know I'll speak on this on Saturday

35:39

. But when I speak about elite teams and elite

35:42

groups , I share kind of a

35:44

thing that was shared by me

35:46

by our sports psychologists and it was all about you

35:48

know , elite teams are teams , are , are teams

35:50

that solve problems better than other teams . They solve

35:53

problems . And then to you spoke of most people intuitively

35:55

think the problem is the external public

35:57

, we . We beat opponents better than our people and

35:59

then our opponents can beat opponents and you know we

36:01

can beat the clock better than than

36:03

the , than the opponents can beat the clock like . We always think of the

36:05

external opponent . But deep down

36:07

we talk about elite teams

36:10

. They solve internal problems better . And that's

36:12

where the huddle is interesting , because the

36:14

best teams deal with

36:16

our own internal personality , clashes

36:18

, egos , emotions , better

36:21

than our opposing teams do . And

36:23

and that's when we talk about how well do

36:25

we sort through our internal issues

36:27

, my expectations versus

36:29

your expectation j , we're on the same team . I

36:32

want to save face . I'm going to throw you one of the bus so I

36:34

don't get cut tomorrow when a problem

36:36

hits , which in football is , every single

36:38

play that doesn't score a touchdown was a problem . Something

36:41

went wrong , but that's true . So think about our toolbox

36:43

talks . We do one in between every single play

36:45

. So that's why I did the frequency of trust , like

36:47

we collaborate every

36:50

five seconds for 20 second bursts

36:52

and we have to assess what went wrong

36:54

. What's what just went wrong ? What

36:57

are we going to do about it ? What are we going to do next

36:59

? Is everybody on board and clear about our roles

37:01

, ready Break ? And if one factor

37:04

of those don't work ? Well , if everyone's not

37:06

on board , if everyone's still beefing about the decision

37:08

being made , or if we're still arguing about

37:10

who to blame when it went wrong and who

37:12

we're mad at and who screwed up . My , we're

37:14

not elite . Your talent's irrelevant , your skill's

37:16

irrelevant , your budget's irrelevant , everything's

37:19

irrelevant . So it's a good message

37:21

and it's a little more complicated . Like you said , you know we

37:23

would have our team like your normal team

37:25

and then you'd have your sub-trades . Just be like we're

37:28

bringing in mercenary players every three plays

37:30

from who knows where . I can appreciate

37:32

that very complexity . So there's

37:34

no perfect answer . But can we have

37:36

sort of clear

37:39

codes of conduct with how we engage

37:41

each other ? And I'm going to run through some

37:43

things on Saturday that were

37:45

taught to us as a team . That became our best

37:47

practices within the huddle of

37:50

modes of communication on a professional

37:52

level that hopefully , intuitively

37:54

good people do it , but I've never heard people

37:56

articulate it as it was to me where they became

37:58

rules and there were ways to avoid

38:01

emotionally blaming

38:03

, ways to avoid us

38:05

versus you conversations and screw

38:07

them . They're screwing up us , them , they

38:09

and it was always collectively agreed

38:11

upon modes of communication . So

38:14

we're always trying to assess problems , not trying

38:16

to blame people , not trying to us versus

38:18

you mentality , because

38:20

that , as you said , that creates

38:22

longer time to solve the problem

38:24

, which is our biggest adversary . Right

38:26

? How efficient are

38:28

we at identifying the issue , solving the problem

38:31

, removing blaming individuals

38:33

so they now want to argue back and get

38:35

out of it and scapegoat . That's time , that's

38:37

money and it's also destruction

38:40

of relationships and culture

38:42

. So how do we make it a fair

38:44

treatment where we're here to solve issues

38:46

and discuss problems , not beef , wh

38:49

wine , complain and argue ? And I'll bring to the

38:51

table sort of ground rules that we had

38:53

that I was on teams that didn't have it and

38:55

it was just a cast of egos trying to shelter their

38:58

egos and make sure no one got blamed and screw you , yelling

39:00

, screaming and there were horrible huddles and

39:02

then you leave the huddle less trusting

39:04

and it would just erode and everybody

39:07

became an independent contractor because , for

39:09

lack of cohesion , everyone's covering their own butt . Because

39:11

football , unlike the other team

39:13

sports and unlike almost every job out there

39:15

, we don't have guaranteed contracts . So

39:18

think of that . You're trying to build a

39:20

team culture where I want you to care about this

39:22

and we'll cut you any second . We have

39:24

no HR , we have no severance , you

39:26

leave tomorrow and you never get paid , but

39:29

please give everything to us and we'll

39:31

give nothing back to you . That takes very

39:33

intentional coaching . I was on a team that we went

39:35

to five straight Western finals and we had a retention

39:37

ratio of about 85% . Every year in the league

39:39

that has about a 50% retention ratio and we

39:41

didn't pay anybody anymore . So I'll speak on

39:43

things we did intentionally .

39:44

That made a difference because it's cutthroat

39:47

really rough yeah

39:49

, that's um , yeah , you

39:51

bring up some good points there in terms of that like code

39:53

of conduct . So I was on the um contact

39:56

crew podcast with uh jonathan and jeff

39:58

uh shout out to those guys and

40:01

uh , the interview they did with me . Um

40:03

, there were three things that we talked about . I mean

40:05

, you know , two of these are , you know , fairly obvious

40:07

we've heard these for a long time which , which is , you know , iq

40:10

, you know someone's intelligence , and then you're , you're

40:12

, uh , the intelligence quotient . Then you have

40:14

the EQ , which is their emotional intelligence

40:16

quotient . But the third one that we discussed

40:19

was the DQ , which is not Dairy Queen , it

40:21

is the , it is the decency quotient

40:23

.

40:24

Yes .

40:25

And the decency quotient is something that I think

40:27

can be further developed in terms

40:29

of a paradigm

40:32

that we could really expand of

40:35

how do you treat people , how

40:37

decent are you , and

40:41

with people

40:43

who are interacting from different

40:45

places in the world . We have immigration

40:47

, we have lots of different complexities , we have how

40:50

people think , where they've come from

40:52

. There is one thing we can all rally around

40:54

if we are providing a moral

40:56

framework of a decency quotient , and

40:59

I think that that is

41:01

really something that can be the

41:03

foundational concrete to build

41:06

a structure of understanding

41:08

on top of concrete , to build a structure

41:11

of understanding on top of James .

41:12

I love that and

41:19

I love that you lean into this . Because the decency I think that's the premise of where we

41:21

need to move to , because there's been so much talk in the last 10 years

41:24

on empathy , right Empathy , empathy

41:26

for the individual here's the problem . You

41:29

can't have empathy in a group environment

41:31

because that means I'm choosing your

41:33

emotional needs over everybody else's , I'm

41:35

making you more important than everybody else , and

41:37

you can't do that in a group culture . You can do that individually

41:40

, no problem . But you can't show

41:42

empathy

41:44

in a team culture environment , because now you're

41:46

more important than everyone else and I'm choosing you over

41:49

someone else . So that right , right away , I've lost

41:51

. What I'm going to lean to is the most important thing fair

41:53

and fairness . Is this decency right

41:55

? This is fair , this is the way we're going

41:57

to treat people fairly , not individually

42:00

, because then we have to choose you over

42:02

you and your more . Your needs matter

42:04

more than your needs , and that's to me destruction

42:06

of culture , because we've individualized everyone

42:09

, which is where our culture is heading . To right , everybody's

42:11

special , fine , no

42:13

problem . But here we're treating everybody fairly

42:15

and that has to be outlined , articulated

42:18

. And then the most important thing on trust , that

42:20

has to be consistent . You

42:22

have to be unbelievably consistent . So people

42:24

then go I'm going to treat it fairly here and

42:27

I think then that becomes your culture

42:29

and as long as you

42:31

do your very best to be consistent with

42:33

it , I don't know anybody that can't be

42:35

liked . That's understood as they're fair and

42:38

they're consistently fair Because

42:40

unfortunately today's generation , they want to like

42:42

everything . They don't like it . It's mean , it's unfair

42:45

if they don't like it , and that's a total change

42:47

in understanding what fairness really

42:49

is . Fairness doesn't mean you're happy . It means this

42:51

is fair and that has to be identified

42:54

, outlined , articulated and then

42:56

kept consistent

42:59

. You know

43:04

heavy criticism towards you because

43:07

you've outlined an expectation on

43:09

the front end and you're and you and you do your

43:11

very , very best to to

43:13

be uh , to be consistent while

43:15

treating everybody fairly , so decently

43:17

, like this is everybody is going to get the same

43:20

treatment . Cause if you go down the empathy road

43:22

, you're picking how how much I should

43:24

make you important than that the expense of your

43:26

importance . Cause if everybody , we want everyone

43:28

to feel really , really , really happy and good

43:30

, good luck with that . Yeah , good luck

43:32

. And that's where I think a leader's now thought . This is where we're at

43:34

now and if we play that game , you're

43:37

screwed and you're not going to be fair and

43:39

it's a mess . And once again we're feeding into the problem

43:41

where people all want to be special

43:43

.

43:56

You'll never have a team environment if everybody wants to be special . Therefore , we'll

43:58

never get anything done in this world . Right , yep , when you talk about the consistency and then you dovetail

44:00

that within with culture . Let's just make an example of this . Let's say

44:02

you had 20 people . Let's

44:04

just go with the IQ for a second . Okay , so you wanted

44:06

to know what the average intelligence was of

44:09

a group of people . You got 20 people and they got super

44:11

high IQs . You do the average and

44:14

to the outside world they go wow , a

44:16

crazy group of super bright

44:18

people . Fine , do that with EQ

44:20

. Wow , great , a number of people

44:22

who understand empathy , understand

44:24

how to communicate , et cetera . Decency

44:26

quotient If you can have some kind of a

44:28

metric on that . Where you go ? Okay , these 20

44:31

people are all very decent people . The

44:33

reality is , is that transcends then

44:35

into wow , the culture

44:37

of that company is amazing . Yeah , fair

44:39

, I agree . Do you know what I mean ? So you

44:42

know . The problem with the word culture

44:44

is everybody expects us to deliver

44:46

it as business owners and leaders

44:48

, when the culture is

44:50

the net behavior of everyone in an organization

44:53

.

44:55

It's how everybody interacts with each

44:57

other , it's the standards of interaction of

44:59

everyone , right , and , particularly when no one's watching

45:02

, it's the baseline , accepted

45:04

way that we interact

45:06

with each other . That's what your culture is going to be right

45:09

how people communicate , how people resolve

45:11

, how people interact , how people come

45:13

, how people act , not what the leadership

45:16

is doing and making you do right . Obviously

45:18

, modeling matters , reward matters

45:20

, what

45:23

gets tolerated matters , but

45:25

the repetition of that spills into the normalization

45:28

of the everyday person there

45:30

. How they roll , they just they . This

45:32

is what we do here and they self , as you

45:34

said the very beginning of our of our chat

45:37

. Then self-policing kicks

45:39

in , because you don't have to

45:41

have owners always doing it sooner or later , and that's why you

45:43

got to do the front-end work though . You got to outline

45:45

it , you got to model it , you got to reward it , you got to be super

45:47

consistent right at the beginning . I think you got to really

45:49

be aggressive with it . So you're squatching everything

45:52

early . So ideally , we conform

45:54

and we just start acting like this

45:56

and new people come in and they just adapt

45:58

to how everybody behaves here and

46:01

then you get self-governance because if you fall in line

46:03

, you look really awkward , really quickly , like

46:05

you're out of step right away

46:07

and nobody wants to be the awkward one for

46:10

very long . So you know you kick back in or you

46:12

leave , and and it does take work on

46:14

the front end by the leader they do , but the long-term result

46:16

is you don't want , you should never be

46:18

the one having to do it forever . You gotta , you gotta

46:20

, you gotta design it on the front end . You need

46:22

, you need relevant um . You know , as you said

46:24

, not everyone's like me , not everyone's going to be

46:27

vocal and out there

46:29

. You need champions within your organization that have characteristics

46:31

that people follow , that people look to . You

46:34

got to find your natural leaders . You

46:37

said I think we said we'll get into this another time

46:39

but you need your role model , people in your

46:41

company , the ones people are going to look to and go yeah

46:44

, but this is who really moves the needle

46:46

here . You got to get your buy-in from your key

46:48

people that people are always keeping their eye on going

46:50

. Okay , you say this , but look at , look at so-and-so

46:52

, this is who it really is and you got to get them to buy

46:54

in and then it gets much easier . Right

46:57

, people will follow the people that are getting rewarded

46:59

in the company , the people that are seen as important in the

47:01

company , the people that are looked up to , and

47:04

how do we get them to make sure they're modeling

47:06

more of this ? And you

47:08

see it shift and

47:10

no perfect answer , as you said . But

47:12

what's the alternative ? Right

47:14

, we fall back on hope , and that's

47:17

the absence of strategy , and

47:19

we're getting beat down with hope right now

47:21

because we're not winning that game . We've

47:23

got algorithms kicking our butt on that one .

47:25

We do . We do when you talk about modeling

47:28

. What's actually

47:30

very strange here is that each

47:32

time that I bring up one subject

47:34

, it turns into

47:36

another note that I have , and you've

47:38

just said it , which is this is why the

47:41

conversations like this can be so organic and

47:43

great . The

47:46

word model Now . I

47:49

think we're having a power dynamic

47:51

issue now based on two things

47:53

. One is patience . Now

47:56

, younger generation let's call this again they've got

47:58

they've . They're used to getting things very quickly . Now

48:01

. The second part is the modeling

48:04

. Now , if the younger

48:06

person looks at the person at the

48:08

top and goes that's actually the only job

48:10

I want . I want to be the owner , I

48:12

want to be able to have the flexibility

48:15

. And that owner then has to be able

48:17

to also say they might have been working for

48:19

20 years . They used to

48:21

worry about money , they used to worry

48:23

about all the stuff . They've worried . They've gone through

48:25

all of these headwinds over time to

48:27

continue to be successful and have been warriors

48:30

in business and in construction

48:32

. It's really tough . It's

48:34

not for the faint of heart . So if

48:37

you have become that person over 20

48:39

, 30 years and now the

48:43

model , the young

48:45

person doesn't even want that job

48:47

. Right , the role model

48:49

doesn't exist in

48:52

the company . That's the hard

48:54

part , because there's a lack of and

48:57

we see this today . If

48:59

you look at Japan , for instance , how they

49:01

treat their elderly , they treat them

49:03

with respect . In

49:06

those blue zones in the world , they celebrate

49:08

the birthdays of people who are 100 , 102

49:10

, 103 , 100 .

49:11

They're involved in things forever too . They have a

49:13

significant , important role .

49:16

So today , what we do is we go . I mean

49:18

, I'm 52 . People think I'm ancient

49:20

. Okay , I'm ancient , I

49:22

still run like I'm 30 . And

49:25

people are like , oh , I don't believe you . Well , just

49:27

wait , that's all I can say . Just

49:34

wait until you're my age and you'll go . Oh , my God , I can't believe . I actually thought

49:36

like that when I was young . But the reality is that we now have this

49:38

lack of patience and the

49:41

model of I would like to be that

49:43

one day doesn't exist , because you're

49:45

not a TikToker , you're not a YouTuber

49:48

, you're not- .

49:48

You're not a millionaire at 19 sitting in your basement .

49:51

Well , the problem is that now we have

49:53

the , it's the B word . Now it's no longer

49:55

millionaire , it's billionaire .

49:57

Millionaire is nothing , yeah .

49:58

Everyone's a millionaire who's got a house , right . So I mean , that's

50:02

not even winning , it's not , it's table stakes , right I

50:05

mean . So we're kind of like , okay , well , this

50:08

is kind of hard now . So

50:15

kind of hard now . So if we don't have these role models that people aspire to be like within

50:17

companies , that used to be like in the old days and

50:19

what makes it even more complex is

50:21

that an owner will it's

50:24

hard for them to have their own leadership

50:26

boundary narrative with

50:29

the people that work for them , which could go

50:31

as the following Listen , I've worked for 30

50:33

years in this company . There's a

50:35

reason that I work

50:38

from home in the morning . I

50:41

take Fridays off

50:43

. I spend X amount

50:45

of time with my family . I'm going to let you

50:47

guys take this meeting . You don't need me there

50:49

. These are all things . They don't understand

50:52

what that person is doing .

50:52

They don't understand what that person is doing , they don't understand

50:55

Everybody wants to start at the finish line . They have no idea

50:57

there's a long marathon in between the two .

50:58

Exactly . But business leaders are finding they

51:01

can't have those conversations because

51:03

the younger , younger people are like no , no

51:05

, no , no , if I'm going to work hard , you're going to work . You're

51:07

going to do the exact same things Like he's like listen , yeah

51:09

, do you know what I mean ?

51:10

Expectations right , it comes back to mismatch expectations

51:12

and it's really difficult

51:15

and I can appreciate it . And

51:17

one thing I can say is I have pretty good insights now because

51:19

I'm really in line

51:21

with our coach high school football . So I'm

51:24

every day around 16 , 17 , 18-year-olds now

51:26

boys , and I've been doing

51:28

it for a few years now . So now they're 19 , 20 , 21

51:30

year old boys and they're getting into parades or

51:32

they're going to school . So I've been and

51:34

now I'm in , I'm in the okanagan , so I'm in a smaller town other

51:36

than the big city , so there's a . Even though social

51:38

media is all over the world , there's a little skewing difference in terms

51:40

of just general culture in the

51:43

area . But I I mean now

51:45

you can't expect every leader to do this but the

51:47

downside I see from athletes which again , these

51:49

are going to be a workforce in three years , whether they're playing sports

51:52

or not , just so you understand . You know , I know

51:54

they grew up with with the billionaire Tik Tokers

51:56

and the problem with , I see , with my young athletes , they're

51:59

there . You know some kid is working his butt off in the weight

52:01

room which , again , no different , takes years

52:03

to get . You can't get a huge and strong

52:05

in a week program , but they're always looking

52:07

at some kid from Texas and Florida that is

52:09

a million times better than them and they're getting discouraged going . I want to be

52:11

like that now , and so what's the point ? And

52:13

they get the what's the point ? Defeatist mentality because

52:16

you'll see everyone , that's unbelievable . Unless I can

52:18

have it tomorrow , what's the point ? Now ? I

52:20

can't expect business leaders to do this . But what's

52:22

been really cool in my own little tiny world

52:25

is and

52:28

I'm 47 years old , I played a long time pro , so I'm not

52:30

just their coach , but I'm a kid that they're like . I

52:32

want to be like you one day , coach like play pro

52:34

and this and that . And so I

52:36

, you know , I have a little gym in my garage

52:38

and kids come up . You know three or four

52:40

of these kids will come over Anyone's invited before school

52:42

, six , 30 in the morning , and

52:45

I lift with them and we

52:47

work out with them of searching for , like that secret workout

52:49

what's the one I'm going . You've seen it . This is every day

52:51

, and so I'm trying to teach them early . It's

52:54

every single day . You get up and you put

52:56

in that work and don't , and it'll

52:58

come and they're getting discouraged and I take pictures of

53:00

them and then a month later they'll be like I haven't got any work . Yeah , you

53:02

have . Look , you forget , cause

53:16

it's every day . Never , and I show up with them , I do it . They're like you're an old man doing this . I'm like , yeah , but I got to keep going

53:19

too , and and so I'm trying my best to teach those lessons which , unfortunately , most people

53:21

don't learn . I think we've and as you said , james , one of the hardest things in terms of um

53:23

modeling , what we've lost in our culture . You spoke

53:25

of the japanese culture , which is interesting . We've

53:28

lost that mentor , apprentice model

53:30

, right where the apprentice was a valued

53:32

position you were honored to

53:34

take , to be taken in by somebody and

53:36

knowing . There's a . There's a 10 year

53:39

runway now of learning . We we

53:41

have . We have removed

53:43

the significance of learning . Learning

53:45

is stupid right now , it's just winning , right . Nobody

53:48

ever wants to cheat code . Everybody wants to go to

53:50

the final . Nobody wants to learn , they

53:56

just want to get it , you know , find a way to get it done faster , and that's why everything's about a shortcut

53:58

and life hacks and all this other nonsense people talk about . There's no mastery anymore

54:00

, because mastery , as you said , day after

54:02

day after day , learning fundamentals

54:05

, principles . I was a great line from I don't

54:07

think it was Nick Saban , one of the great college football coaches

54:09

. They're at some conference and it's up at the hundredth floor

54:11

or 50th floor or whatever , and he's

54:13

about to get an elevator and one young coach

54:16

asked him the secret you know secret to getting to you

54:18

. He goes I'll take the

54:20

stairs and see up there . He goes why are you taking the elevator ? It took

54:22

me 30 years . It

54:26

took me 30 years of stairs . We'll take the elevator

54:28

stairs 30 years , like that's , that's the long road

54:30

. Then then you , like

54:33

you said the owner , then you get to take the elevator , but I don't think you're going

54:35

to shift youth perspective in

54:37

general . But there needs

54:39

. I think by not even in trying , you

54:42

have no chance . You need to . You need to . You

54:44

need to somehow make

54:47

it realize that the

54:49

real value is in the learning , the

54:52

, the , what you deem is winning , making the big

54:54

. That comes after this , and I

54:56

know it's impossible because the algorithms are stacked

54:58

against us and they go home and scroll again . Like I said

55:00

, they jump right back in the water and this

55:02

is stupid . What am I wasting my time for

55:04

? I don't have the simple answer to

55:06

that and that's why , even on my little world , I

55:09

do everything I can to keep people playing football , because I said , if you

55:11

, at 16 , can decide to do a

55:13

hard sport where no one sees your face and no one praises you and

55:15

all you do is difficult and tough , you've got a chance

55:17

. You're understanding what it means , but

55:20

without it , it's really

55:22

, really hard . How can we

55:24

do our best to

55:26

catch them doing something good early and

55:28

praise them for it ? That doesn't look like their normal

55:30

winning to them ? Because if they look up to somebody

55:32

, they go . I want to be like

55:34

you one day and if I can tell you what

55:36

you're doing here is important , no , that's stupid . No

55:39

, that's what matters . And

55:41

if we can do that a few times , maybe you can go . What do

55:43

you mean ? This matters , this is stupid . That's

55:45

how I got here . You

55:47

want to get here . This is what it is . No

55:56

, no , you look up to me . I think the people that can model have some leverage and we

55:58

got to try to use it with our voice and with our actions of catch them doing something good

56:00

that they don't think is worthwhile . That's stupid

56:02

. It's a waste of it's below them and

56:04

remind them . This is how you'll get here . This is the

56:06

stuff that's going to matter . I don't think you're going to get everybody

56:08

, but maybe you'll get a few that go . Really

56:10

, there's no way . And how do you have that five-minute

56:12

conversation from this older person

56:15

that's made it to help our

56:17

younger instead of just going ? You youth are lazy . You don't

56:19

get it to try to communicate them , try

56:21

to connect with them , and maybe they'll come back and ask

56:23

a few more questions . I

56:25

don't know how else to do it , because

56:28

the glaring reality is I make this

56:30

. You want all these boats and houses . I

56:32

want that . Okay

56:34

, then this is what it's going to take . That's going to take a long time , I know

56:36

, yes , we're not going to lie to

56:38

you , we're not going to sugarcoat it , but you

56:41

know , my story is I'm I was undersized

56:43

under everything . I worked my butt

56:45

off . If you wanted to , you could do it

56:47

, but this is the answer . This is the cheat code

56:50

, this is the life hack Every

56:52

day , getting really good at stuff that people don't

56:54

want to do . That's the secret

56:56

. I don't know if everyone's going to listen to it , but at

56:59

least you're being honest , you're being fair , you're

57:01

being encouraging , you're being positive , you're

57:04

trying .

57:06

Man , that is awesome . I can't wait to you

57:08

and I have another conversation because

57:11

, man , this was just the iceberg . I think we're

57:13

still on the surface of the water . We got under

57:15

a little bit . That's pretty good , man . Good .

57:18

This is not a one-hour fix right .

57:20

No , it's not a one-hour fix .

57:21

We have a fix . But I will

57:24

refuse to throw my hands up and say

57:26

we're done , because then you and I know that's

57:28

terrifying .

57:29

Yeah , no , it is Okay

57:33

. So I've got a . I used to do something called rapid fire questions , and

57:36

instead of that I've replaced it with this

57:38

. So you're the guinea pig .

57:39

Okay , all right , I've been called worse , let's

57:42

do it .

57:43

This is the big question what

57:46

are we missing in construction

57:48

relative to our conversation today ?

57:51

Young workers that care .

57:54

So we got to cultivate that , we got to sow some seeds .

57:57

You got to give them a reason to .

57:59

I know you and I can talk about this offline

58:02

. I got some things that I'd like to chat

58:04

with you about politically

58:06

on how to get this done . So

58:09

, yeah , maybe you can get involved . Uh

58:12

, this has been a pleasure , angus .

58:15

Love it , so I'll see you on this weekend .

58:17

Yeah , Sounds great man .

58:19

Thank you for your time , james , you're welcome .

58:23

Well , that does it for another episode of the site

58:26

visit . Thank you for listening . Be sure

58:28

to stay connected with us by following our social

58:30

accounts on Instagram and YouTube . Stay

58:33

connected with us by following our social accounts on Instagram and YouTube

58:35

. You can also sign up for our monthly newsletter . At sitemaxsystemscom

58:38

slash the site visit , where you'll get industry insights

58:40

, pro tips and everything you need to know about

58:42

the site visit podcast and Sitemax

58:44

, the job site and construction management

58:47

tool of choice for thousands of contractors

58:49

in North America and beyond . Sitemmax

58:52

is also the engine that powers this

58:54

podcast . All right , let's

58:56

get back to building .