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get started. Tortoise.

1:30

Hello, it's Claudia here, host of The

1:32

Slow Newscast. And you're listening

1:34

to The State of Netanyahu, a

1:37

three-part series from Tortoise. In

1:39

this episode, Donald McIntyre examines Benjamin

1:42

Netanyahu's leadership from 2022 until the

1:44

present day. This

1:48

is episode three, The Failure.

1:57

We'll stop. We'll stop. Furious

2:05

Israeli demonstrators are out in

2:08

force in Jerusalem. It's

2:10

the night of March 26 last year. Protesters

2:14

hold placards saying things like,

2:17

dictator, and shout, Busheh,

2:19

shame, and point to the

2:21

nearby house of Benjamin Netanyahu.

2:24

There are so many demos,

2:26

it's the biggest sustained mass

2:29

protest Israel's ever seen. It

2:34

all started back in January when

2:36

the Prime Minister revealed his plans

2:38

to curb the powers of the

2:41

country's Supreme Court, the only effective

2:43

check and balance on the Israel

2:45

government. It was a plan to

2:47

eviscerate the Israeli judiciary or crush

2:49

judicial independence. Analyst

2:52

Dalia Scheindlin says this was

2:54

particularly bad news because... The

2:57

country had weak democratic institutions,

2:59

missing pillars, and a troubled

3:01

and undefined relationship between the branches

3:03

of powers, which left a lot

3:05

of decision making to the judiciary.

3:11

According to Netanyahu's biographer, Anshul Fafa,

3:14

it was a case of Netanyahu...

3:16

He was convincing himself that something

3:18

which would have once been

3:21

seen as being bad, or even he himself

3:23

said, you know, you talk

3:25

about the plans that were totally eviscerating

3:27

the Supreme Court, you have so many

3:29

cases of this, and you know, in

3:31

the past saying this is a bad

3:33

idea, and then suddenly his government pushes

3:35

this idea and he justifies

3:37

it. I

3:45

was at that protest in Jerusalem. It

3:48

was pretty heated, brandishing Israeli

3:51

flags and bammers saying things

3:53

like no to fascism. The

3:55

crowd breaks through a police cordon, chanting

3:59

democratic... democracy,

4:01

they advanced towards the Prime

4:04

Ministerial residence. This

4:07

particular night, the demonstration has been

4:09

called at really short notice because

4:12

Nesigna who's crossed another red line.

4:14

It's not just the Supreme Court

4:16

he's attacking now, but also his

4:18

own defence minister. The

4:21

minister is frustrated that reservists are

4:23

refusing to show up for regular

4:25

duty in protest against the judicial

4:28

reforms. It means his

4:30

army's short-staffed. Defence

4:32

Minister Yovav Galant publicly warns

4:35

Netanyahu that he's endangering the

4:37

security of the country. The

4:44

growing rift in our society is

4:46

penetrating the IDF and security agencies.

4:49

This poses a clear, immediate and

4:51

tangible threat to the security of

4:53

the state. It's a

4:55

warning that will seem all the more

4:57

prophetic later in the year. But

5:00

Netanyahu doesn't want to hear it. Israeli

5:03

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu fired

5:05

Defence Minister Yovav Galant on

5:07

Sunday. His dismissal marks the

5:09

largest public fracture to date

5:11

in Netanyahu's coalition government over

5:13

the proposed reforms that have

5:15

sparked mass protests and even

5:17

dissent from some in the

5:19

nation's revered military. At

5:22

Sunday night near Netanyahu's house,

5:24

where the tarmac still glistening

5:26

from the water cannon used

5:28

to repel the demonstrators, one

5:30

protester, a 22-year-old student, asks

5:33

me a rhetorical question. Why

5:36

do you appoint someone as Minister of Defence

5:38

if you don't trust him when he tells

5:40

you the state is in danger? Such

5:44

is the outrage on the

5:46

streets throughout Israel's cities at

5:49

what the hundreds of thousands

5:51

of protesters call Netanyahu's dictatura,

5:53

dictatorship, that he's forced

5:56

to reinstate Galant a fortnight later.

6:01

For now at the beginning was very careless

6:03

to didn't didn't do you look into it.

6:05

Netanyahu's one time spokesman Aviv percent skate

6:08

the city know we are right way

6:10

we can do whatever he was. Netanyahu

6:16

is easily Israel's longest serving Prime

6:18

Minister has taken the country from

6:21

the promise of peace in the

6:23

early nineties to where it is

6:25

today. And the

6:27

previous episode, I tracked the tumultuous

6:30

relationship with President Obama when he

6:32

Israeli Prime minister was playing for

6:34

time and trying to keep the

6:37

idea of a Palestinian state at

6:39

bay. Netanyahu,

6:42

Is now back in power

6:44

after a brief period in

6:46

opposition, this time with a

6:48

coalition which includes to extreme

6:50

right wing ultra nationalist parties.

6:52

In this episode, I want

6:54

to explore how that alliance

6:56

had such dramatic consequences for

6:59

the country at home and

7:01

abroad. A

7:05

first thing to understand is why

7:07

Netanyahu is going to such lengths

7:10

and paying such a high price

7:12

to reshape the Supreme Court given

7:14

all the backlash is facing. A

7:17

popular view is that the primary

7:19

motivation for the so cool judicial

7:22

overhaul is so the prime minister

7:24

can escape his legal issues. Because.

7:27

He's got himself into some trouble.

7:29

In fact, quite a lot of

7:32

trouble. Is on trial for not

7:34

one, but three corruption charges, all

7:36

of which she denies. And

7:39

the charges against him. Well.

7:42

They all involve his friendships with

7:44

very rich man. See

7:46

the admiration detonation of business

7:48

that busy people have been

7:50

a nurse. Hour span again.

7:53

I was her that some mass from

7:55

leave us senator was an a outside

7:57

and spend a certain bird to does.

8:00

2009 government, now the chairman

8:02

of one of Israel's leading defense industry.

8:05

And Shtani's told me that to Netanyahu,

8:07

these billionaires were the smartest people. He

8:11

admires them. And

8:13

he sought the friendship. The

8:17

court's been slow and it's been

8:19

a protracted affair. But

8:22

unlike in his first term as prime

8:24

minister, this time it's not going away.

8:27

But as far as much of

8:29

the public is concerned, Netanyahu is

8:31

going to all this trouble overhauling

8:33

the judicial system to save himself.

8:36

Clearly the idea was that Pibby was doing

8:38

it only for his own sake. But

8:41

I believe that it has a very strong component

8:43

of political strategy. That

8:46

political strategy is inextricably tied up

8:48

with the nature of the coalition

8:50

he formed back in the previous

8:52

December, easily the most

8:54

right wing government in Israel's history

8:57

and including two of

8:59

the country's most extremist

9:01

Jewish supremacist politicians. Suddenly

9:05

all the cards worked

9:08

together and Netanyahu reached

9:11

a right wing majority

9:15

and betrayed a few of

9:17

the things that he promised. And

9:19

then Yitzamah Bengveer got

9:22

a senior position as minister

9:25

of internal police. Remember

9:28

him? We met him in

9:30

episode one. He was the young

9:32

West Bank settler who so proudly

9:34

vandalized Yitzhak Rabin's car and publicly

9:36

threatened him just days before he

9:39

was assassinated back in 1995. Yitzamah

9:43

Bengveer has a criminal conviction

9:45

for incitement to racism and

9:48

was a member of an extremist

9:50

group eventually outlawed for being a

9:52

Jewish terrorist organization. He wasn't

9:55

able to do his military service

9:57

because the Israeli Defense Forces rejected

10:00

him for his extremist views, until

10:02

recently he's been beyond the

10:05

pale, even for Netanyahu. He

10:30

thought that his immune and

10:32

very strong body can do

10:34

whatever he wants. It

10:37

wasn't just Ben Gevir whose

10:39

appointment outraged many Israelis. No

10:41

less extreme was the new

10:43

finance minister, Bethel El Smotrich,

10:46

also a settler. For

10:48

both men, extracting the teeth

10:50

of the Supreme Court was an

10:52

essential way of removing any restraints

10:54

on their plans for annexation of

10:57

the West Bank, bringing

10:59

it under full Israeli sovereignty.

11:02

And Netanyahu would now need

11:04

to keep both men happy

11:06

to maintain his increasingly ultra-nationalist

11:09

and populist coalition. Ben

11:12

Gevir, Smotrich, they couldn't care less

11:14

if Bibi goes to jail. They

11:16

don't need Bibi. They want a

11:19

more nationalist judiciary. They want the

11:21

Arab society to be second

11:24

or third or zero-class citizens. They

11:26

want to push them away. So

11:29

this was not just about Netanyahu's

11:31

fate. And clearly, the other

11:33

politicians, to them,

11:35

I mean, they liked Netanyahu's ability

11:37

to win elections and to give

11:40

them power, but they

11:42

couldn't care less if he's in prison. Empowered

11:45

by the appointments of Ben Gevir

11:47

and Smotrich, extremist settlers in the

11:49

West Bank are becoming increasingly aggressive

11:52

towards the Palestinians, hoping

11:54

to drive them away from their homes.

11:57

There are regular flashpoints. In

12:00

early October, two commando companies stationed

12:02

at the Gaza border are redeployed

12:05

to the West Bank. In

12:08

some spots, the Gaza border

12:10

is a 20-foot concrete wall

12:12

extending deep underground with cutting-edge

12:15

surveillance tools. A

12:17

few military spotters in IDF

12:19

bases along there notice worrying

12:21

signs that Hamas may be

12:23

planning some kind of cross-border

12:25

operation. They pass their

12:27

concerns up the chain of command, but

12:29

they are ignored. Benjamin

12:35

the Señor who needed Hamas.

12:38

They gave him a reason not

12:40

to negotiate with the Palestinians. After

12:42

all, no one could press him to

12:44

enter talks with a prescribed terrorist group.

12:47

And what would be the point in talking

12:50

to the leadership in the West Bank when

12:52

they didn't represent all Palestinians? The

12:55

Israeli leader seemed to have Hamas

12:57

figured out. He was sure their

13:00

main concern would be staying in

13:02

power. He also calculated that if

13:04

he helped funnel money their way,

13:07

they would get addicted and be

13:09

pacified. There was a

13:11

growing disenchantment in

13:13

Gaza with Hamas. Ehud Olmets,

13:15

a former Israeli prime minister,

13:17

he says when the Palestinian

13:19

Authority cut funding to Hamas,

13:21

Benjamin the Señor stepped in

13:23

to help facilitate funds from

13:25

elsewhere. Bibi arranged

13:27

with Qatar to

13:30

finance Gaza.

13:32

Netanyahu allowed a

13:35

lot of money that comes from mostly

13:37

from Qatar, but from Arab sources

13:40

into Hamas, which kept them alive.

13:43

Not only did Benjamin Netanyahu sanction

13:46

the payments from the Gulf, One

13:48

of his former ministers claims that

13:51

he even dispatched the head of

13:53

Israel's secret service, the Mossad, to

13:55

Doha to ensure the funding stream

13:57

didn't stop. All.

14:00

The way back in, two

14:02

thousand and eighteen photographs are

14:05

circulating of suitcases filled with

14:07

millions of dollars passing through

14:10

Israeli checkpoints into doesn't. So.

14:16

I'm not sleepy Saturday morning

14:18

in October. Everyone, including

14:20

the upper levels of government

14:22

in the military is looking

14:24

the other way. No.

14:26

One has any particular concerns

14:29

about Gaza. It's.

14:32

The worst attack on Israeli

14:34

civilians in the history of

14:36

the stays. Israel's Nine Eleven.

14:41

It's.

14:59

It's.

15:10

One Thousand One Hundred And Thirty

15:12

Nine Dead. Defenseless.

15:15

Young people at a rave. Parents.

15:17

Killed in front of a children's

15:20

children in front of their parents.

15:31

Mutilations and rate.

15:35

Of the lot of the that the not. This.

15:50

To Hundred and sixty three hostages.

15:52

A drag back into Gaza. I

15:56

saw my size falling like a ducks.

16:00

I saw Rpgs flying

16:02

behind my head. To.

16:06

Cars with machine guns on them too

16:09

soon after me and shooting bullets. To

16:11

my god my friend just shoot in

16:13

there had been screwing to me. the

16:15

shop my the shot mad. The

16:21

primary source of the affected farmers

16:24

grief an outrage is of course

16:26

her months. But. The

16:28

deep trauma is compounded by their

16:30

sense of abandonment by the very

16:33

government agencies meant to protect them.

16:36

The. Way in which the senior who

16:38

sold him so he says the man

16:40

most ready and able to defend the

16:43

nation. Here is saying: Just

16:45

sat to journalists Barry Vice on

16:47

her podcast around fifteen months ago.

16:51

Once you understand of tiny Israelis,

16:53

it's sub. Basically. Of

16:56

I think it's about two tenths of

16:58

one percent of America size and it's

17:00

tiny country it's the size of have

17:02

a look bigger than Rhode Island surrounded

17:04

assists hundreds of this is of who

17:07

formerly of hostile people and now the

17:09

hostile as power of the as far

17:11

away but six or annihilation. So obviously

17:13

security uppermost in people's minds and in

17:15

Israel I suppose people vote for me

17:18

time and time again because they know.

17:20

That. Are protectors on. Any.

17:23

One is interviewed the survivors or

17:25

the relatives of hostages as I

17:27

have quickly becomes aware of how

17:30

muscles many were that saturday, by

17:32

how long it took for the

17:35

military to arise. As

17:37

the relative of one hostage tell me

17:39

which are, we have the strongest army

17:41

in the world. So where was it.

17:46

right? From the offset, Netanyahu

17:48

makes it clear that retaliation

17:50

will be obsolete. a

17:53

muscle tell you it's awesome boulud hamas

17:55

wants to murderous all see this as

17:57

an enemy that murders children and mothers

18:00

their homes, that slaughters and

18:02

massacres are citizens, including children.

18:05

We will destroy them and we will take

18:07

mighty vengeance for this black day that they

18:09

have forced on the state of Israel and

18:11

its citizens. But

18:15

within days, Joe Biden is in Israel,

18:17

warning him not to go the way

18:19

of 9-11 and the disastrous wars

18:22

in Afghanistan and Iraq. Justice

18:25

must be done. But

18:28

I caution this while you feel that rage,

18:31

don't be consumed by it. After

18:34

9-11, we were enraged in

18:36

the United States. While we

18:38

sought justice and got justice, we also made

18:41

mistakes. Netanyahu doesn't

18:43

heed the warning. Two

18:45

weeks after the attack, the Israeli Prime

18:47

Minister announces that Israel is engaged in

18:50

a war on behalf of the free

18:52

world. So

18:54

Hamas barbarism not

18:56

only threatens the Jews, it

18:58

threatens the Middle East, it

19:00

threatens the region, it threatens

19:03

Europe, it threatens the world. Hamas is

19:05

the test case of civilization

19:08

against barbarism. Hamas's

19:12

atrocities on October 7 were

19:14

barbaric. But in

19:17

extending the onslaught across the whole

19:19

of Gaza, Israel is

19:21

also threatening to devastate another

19:23

civilization, a vibrant one that

19:26

goes back at least for

19:28

millennia. Two

19:30

thousand pound bombs and munitions

19:32

begin raining down in what

19:34

Israel says is an attempt

19:36

to break up the deep

19:38

network of tunnels, stretching for

19:40

hundreds of kilometers below Gaza's

19:42

cities and enabling Hamas

19:44

to hide from Israeli drones.

19:47

The bombs blast some of the

19:50

tunnels but they also damage and

19:52

destroy schools, universities,

19:54

shopping malls, apartment

19:57

buildings, factories and greenhouses.

20:00

Much of the water, electricity

20:02

and other infrastructure is beyond

20:04

repair. The

20:06

US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin

20:08

emphatically urges Israel to take

20:10

every step to preserve civilian

20:13

lives, saying it's not only

20:15

a moral imperative, but also

20:17

in Israel's own interests. This

20:20

kind of a fight, the center of

20:22

gravity is the civilian population. And

20:25

if you drive them into the arms of

20:27

the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with

20:29

a strategic defeat. So

20:31

I have repeatedly made clear to

20:33

Israel's leaders that

20:35

protecting Palestinian civilians in Gaza

20:38

is both a moral responsibility

20:41

and a strategic imperative. But

20:44

it doesn't have much impact. The

20:46

death toll in Gaza, according to

20:48

the Hamas-run Ministry of Health, which

20:50

has proved to be pretty accurate

20:52

in past conflicts, begins to

20:54

climb and most of those

20:56

killed are civilians. 3,000,

20:59

8,000, 10,000. Rifat

21:05

Akharia is the professor of English

21:07

Literature at the Islamic University in

21:09

Gaza before the war breaks out.

21:13

The 44-year-old is also a leading

21:15

member of a Palestinian literary circle

21:17

and a celebrated poet. This

21:33

is him teaching his students because

21:42

he is missing something.

21:44

What's the grammatical term for it? He

22:01

sounds desperate and on the verge of

22:03

tears. At one point he says

22:05

the only weapon he has at home is

22:07

his board marker. But if the

22:10

Israelis invade, if

22:13

the target has charged at us or opened

22:15

door to door to massacre

22:17

us, I'm going to use that marker,

22:19

throw it at the Israeli soldiers, even

22:22

if that is the last thing that I would be able

22:24

to do. And this is the feeling

22:26

of everybody. If you are helpless, we

22:28

have nothing to lose. At

22:31

around 6pm on December the

22:33

7th, an Israeli bomb hits

22:36

Rafat's home in northern Gaza.

22:38

He's killed along with several members

22:40

of his family. Afterwards,

22:43

people find a poem he wrote

22:45

and posted online a few weeks

22:47

before his death. If

22:49

I must die, you must

22:51

live to tell my story, to

22:53

sell my things, to buy a

22:55

piece of cloth and

22:58

some strings. Make

23:00

it white with a long tail so

23:03

that a child... If I must die, let

23:06

it bring hope. Let

23:08

it be a tale. The

23:14

10,000 dead becomes 15,000. 20,000. 22,000. The Israeli Prime Minister goes

23:16

on TV and is

23:24

grilled about the numbers. Wait

23:26

a minute. You're saying it's only been one

23:29

civilian that's been killed for one Hamas terrorist

23:32

in Gaza? Yes, that's exactly

23:34

what I'm saying. Yes. We've killed and wounded

23:36

over 20,000 Hamas terrorists.

23:41

Out of that, about

23:43

12,000 fighters. And

23:45

we're doing everything we can to minimize civilian

23:47

casualties and continue to do so. But one

23:49

thing we're not going to do is we're

23:52

not going to let Hamas emerge victorious. If

23:55

you're confused by these numbers, you're

23:57

not alone. It's not possible to

23:59

verify. Israel's claims about how

24:01

many Hamas fighters they've killed.

24:05

Images begin emerging of hundreds of

24:07

Palestinian men stripped down to their

24:09

underwear and handcuffed being driven out

24:11

of Gaza in trucks. The

24:17

death toll continues to climb. Meanwhile

24:24

conditions in the West Bank

24:27

deteriorate further. There's a

24:29

sharp increase in violence by

24:31

ideological settlers against Palestinians deep

24:34

in occupied territory. Israeli

24:37

human rights agencies report that

24:39

in the three months after

24:41

the Hamas attack, hundreds of

24:43

Palestinians are killed by Israeli

24:45

security forces and settlers. In

24:48

theory, the settler attacks are in

24:50

retaliation for October 7. In

24:53

practice, they're an attempt to force

24:55

Palestinians from their homes and

24:58

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with code PODCAST. Day

26:50

163 of the war in Gaza and

26:53

the shadow of a potential ground operation

26:56

in Rafa. In Israel, most TV channels

26:58

choose not to show what's going on

27:00

in Gaza in a great deal of

27:02

detail. The IDF says several Hamas gunmen

27:05

were killed and wounded in gun battles

27:07

on the hospital grounds. One Israeli soldier

27:09

was lightly wounded. The operation

27:12

is being carried out with extreme

27:14

caution. Our war is against

27:16

Hamas, not against the people of Gaza.

27:19

We seek no harm to the civilians

27:22

that Hamas- Most of the Israeli public

27:24

continue to live almost daily through the

27:26

horrors of October 7th. For

27:29

some on the right, Gaza is getting

27:32

no less than it deserves. My

27:34

contrast, a liberal Israeli I know told

27:36

me over coffee in December, I

27:39

know there is terrible suffering in Gaza,

27:41

but I'm just not ready to think

27:43

about it yet. One

27:46

issue which is proving a continual

27:48

pressure point for Netanyahu is the

27:50

plight of the Israelis who were

27:52

kidnapped by Hamas. There

27:55

have been almost constant protests

27:57

over the hostages. I'm

28:00

here also because I think

28:03

that all the

28:05

rest that the government is saying is a

28:07

lie. We cannot stop

28:10

the Hamas. So

28:12

you need to stay home so the government is

28:14

waiting for your son Bob. I was

28:16

waiting for the government to bring my

28:19

son, my son for one other... But

28:21

Israelis have divided on their views about the

28:23

war and how to free the hostages. At

28:26

times people even come to blows.

28:36

In the last week of November, the

28:38

one and only pause in fighting in

28:41

five months of war sees

28:43

the release of 110 hostages

28:46

in return for the freeing of around 180

28:48

Palestinians held

28:50

in Israeli jails. There

28:53

are still more than 130 hostages in Gaza. All

28:57

attempts to replicate the ceasefire deal

28:59

have failed. Hamas

29:02

are hanging tough, including on the

29:04

number of new Palestinian prisoners they

29:06

want released. But the Israeli

29:08

Prime Minister doesn't seem to be in any

29:10

rush either. He knows the

29:12

moment the fighting stops he's going to

29:14

have to face the charges against him

29:17

in court, but also a

29:19

public inquiry about who was to blame

29:21

for the failings that led to October

29:23

the 7th. Clearly

29:26

Netanyahu is not enthusiastic about

29:28

the hostage deal. current

29:32

editor in chief Alos Ban. Maybe

29:36

because of even more pressing

29:38

political interests that is far

29:40

right political partners have

29:44

already declared that they're

29:46

against any kind of deal like that. And

29:48

they threatened to leave the coalition. If

29:51

that happened, it might force the

29:53

Prime Minister to go to an

29:55

early election, something he's likely to

29:57

want to avoid with his current

29:59

dire poll. ratings. Politically,

30:02

Netanyahu gains nothing from such a

30:04

deal. Nothing.

30:07

He got nothing politically from

30:09

the previous partial deal of

30:11

bringing back about half the

30:13

hostages, mostly

30:16

the women and children.

30:19

He did not give him anything politically. Now

30:24

we're talking about releasing

30:27

Palestinian prisoners that are more

30:31

politically risky. Back

30:34

when Netanyahu was prime minister in 2011, he agreed

30:36

to another very large-scale release

30:40

of Palestinian prisoners. A thousand were

30:43

let out of jail in return

30:45

for just one Israeli, a soldier

30:47

who'd been kidnapped and held in

30:50

Gaza for years. At

30:53

the time, the swap played well in the

30:55

Israeli media, but among the

30:57

prisoners who were released was

30:59

a Gajen called Yahya Sinwar.

31:02

He would go on to lead Hamas

31:04

and become one of the masterminds behind

31:06

the October 7th attacks.

31:10

Netanyahu has repeatedly said the best

31:12

way to recover the hostages is

31:15

to continue the military onslaught in

31:17

Gaza. You know that

31:19

in Netanyahu now, we are working

31:21

in two parallel vectors. One

31:24

is crushing the Hamas and the second

31:26

is releasing the hostages and they don't

31:29

necessarily coincide. The

31:32

prime minister's former spokesman,

31:34

Aviv Brzezinski. To crush

31:36

the Hamas, most likely you won't get the

31:38

hostages alive. If I would

31:40

have been as advised just to go

31:42

to the dirty politics, politically you need

31:44

to be with the Hamas at the

31:47

expense of the hostages, even at the

31:49

expense of the hostages, because vice versa,

31:51

they won't appreciate you. 150

32:00

Palestinians have been killed in Gaza and

32:02

more than 73,000 injured according

32:06

to figures from the Hamas-run health

32:08

ministry. And

32:11

if that weren't shocking enough, the

32:13

threat of famine is increasing. Shocking

32:17

images of emaciated kids start

32:20

appearing on social media. The

32:24

death toll and wholesale destruction

32:27

provoked mounting dismay among Western

32:30

publics fuelling demonstrations in many

32:32

cities across the world. At

32:42

the International Court of Justice in

32:44

The Hague, a case is brought

32:46

by the South African government against

32:49

Israel, accusing them of genocide. Netanyahu

32:52

feels obliged to send a high-powered

32:54

legal delegation to the court, which

32:57

warns his government that it needs to take

32:59

steps to ensure that it doesn't

33:01

breach the 1948 Genocide Convention. But

33:05

it doesn't go as far as calling on Israel to halt

33:08

the war in Gaza, as South

33:10

Africa has asked it to. As

33:13

the war enters into its sixth month, calls

33:16

for restraint appear to have fallen on

33:18

stony ground, including

33:20

those from the Americans. It's

33:23

not difficult for Netanyahu and his coalition

33:25

to ignore their words, because

33:28

alongside these periodic rebukes, the

33:31

Americans continue to supply Israel's military

33:33

with the heavy munitions, both aerial

33:36

and artillery, which are the cause

33:38

of so many of the casualties.

33:42

So why doesn't Joe Biden seem

33:44

able to attach any conditions to

33:46

the military aid America gives Israel,

33:49

even as the civilian death toll

33:51

climbs into the tens of thousands?

33:55

The answer may lie in

33:57

the deep personal and emotional

33:59

connection. the president has

34:01

with Israel. He was

34:03

born during the Holocaust and that's

34:06

really influenced his outlook. I

34:08

make no bones about it. I get criticized for having

34:11

said a long time ago. You need not be a

34:13

Jew to be a Zionist. I'm a Zionist. Where there's

34:15

no Israel there's not a Jew in the world to

34:17

be safe. But in

34:19

the White House frustration with the Israeli Prime

34:22

Minister is growing and there

34:24

are leaks reporting that President

34:26

Biden has referred to Benjamin

34:28

Netanyahu as that fucking guy

34:31

and an asshole. He's used

34:33

some harsh language about Netanyahu

34:35

personally but in

34:37

terms of the actual substance of

34:39

the policy the

34:41

weapons pipeline is completely

34:44

unaffected. Former Palestinian

34:46

negotiator Khaled El-Gindi. Just

34:49

the other day we blocked yet another

34:51

resolution in the Security Council. Three

34:54

times the US has vetoed ceasefire

34:57

resolutions in the Security Council. I've

35:00

just never seen another administration in

35:02

which there has been zero learning

35:04

curve at all and

35:06

there doesn't seem to be any price whether

35:10

it's in human terms, in

35:12

reputational terms or even in

35:14

political terms. What has

35:16

happened is that the

35:18

top US Senate Democrat Chuck Schumer

35:20

has said that Israel should be

35:23

able to choose another leader

35:25

in a fresh election before

35:27

the country declines into a

35:29

pariah state. Prime Minister

35:31

Netanyahu has lost his way by

35:34

allowing his political survival to

35:37

take the precedence over the best

35:39

interests of Israel. He

35:43

has put himself in coalition with far-right

35:45

extremists like ministers Smotrik and Ben Gavir

35:47

and as a result he has been

35:50

too willing to tolerate the civilian toll

35:52

in Gaza which is

35:54

pushing support for Israel worldwide

35:56

to historic lows. Israel

35:59

cannot survive survive if

36:01

it becomes a pariah. Schumer

36:03

speaks for the authority not only

36:05

of being the Senate Majority Leader,

36:08

but also the most senior Jewish

36:10

elected politician in America. What's

36:13

more, Joe Biden, who knew it

36:15

was coming, said it was a

36:17

good speech. For

36:20

his part Netanyahu doubled down,

36:22

condemning Schumer for interfering in

36:24

an ally's internal politics and

36:27

said that Israel was not some

36:29

banana republic. And

36:31

defying Washington, he pointedly reaffirmed

36:33

the plan was to invade

36:35

Rafa in the south of

36:37

Gaza, where most of the displaced

36:40

population has gathered. The

36:42

fear is this would lead to even

36:44

more dead civilians. Biden

36:46

has warned against it, saying this

36:49

would cross a red line. Schumer

36:53

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmer

36:55

thinks more drastic action is

36:57

required. It's time for

36:59

Biden and

37:02

the others, Rishi Sunad, Shultz,

37:05

Macron, others, to

37:08

get into a room

37:11

with Bibi, close the door

37:15

and explain to him what needs to

37:17

be explained until he will understand. It's

37:21

necessary also with a baseball bat.

37:26

Back home, Netanyahu's poll ratings have

37:28

tanked. A large majority seem to

37:31

want him gone as PM, but

37:34

around half think he should stay on until

37:36

the war is over. And

37:38

right now, the Prime Minister seems to

37:40

be falling back on a strategy that's

37:42

worked for him his whole political career.

37:45

Store and play for time. Al-Feben.

37:50

The longer the war, the further

37:52

away the election. The

37:56

longer the war, the

37:58

possibility of a election. large-scale

38:01

protest against Netanyahu

38:04

is smaller. So

38:07

can he survive? Despite

38:09

his unpopularity and a growing

38:11

consensus outside the ranks of

38:13

his die-hard supporters that he

38:15

needs to go, Aviv

38:18

Brashinsky, commentator and former

38:20

Netanyahu spokesman, thinks he

38:22

just might. If

38:25

and when the IDF will catch

38:27

Y Here

38:48

you see, I bought

38:50

the most notorious person,

38:53

the most wanted, then

38:55

maybe Netanyahu have still

38:57

a political future. Maybe.

39:00

If he will not catch in while and if he will

39:02

not win the Hamas, he can say

39:05

goodbye today. What's

39:08

the future if he does

39:10

survive politically? Let's

39:12

take Gaza first. For

39:14

months, Netanyahu resisted American pressure on him

39:16

to come up with the idea of

39:19

a plan for the

39:21

day after the war. When

39:23

he finally did, it was a

39:25

somewhat vague promise that Israel would

39:28

somehow keep Gaza under control. Palestinian

39:31

analyst and former negotiator, Ahmed

39:33

Halidy, says the basic plan

39:36

was... Whoever rules in

39:38

Gaza, security is in Israel's hands,

39:40

but you want to

39:43

hand over governance to a local

39:46

party. The local clans, apparently, are

39:48

going to take over. Non-hostile,

39:53

non-hostile local clans. They

39:55

don't specify where they will find

39:57

anyone who's non-hostile in Gaza, right?

40:00

now. Oh yeah, they're hiding,

40:02

they're just waiting to come out. And

40:05

the Palestinians have to be de-radicalized,

40:08

in other words, they have to remove

40:10

incitement from the language and their culture.

40:12

So you have to redesign the whole

40:15

of the Palestinian national

40:18

movement, its narrative, its institutions,

40:21

and all of this under

40:23

indefinite Israeli occupation of Gaza, security

40:25

occupation of Gaza. And

40:28

of course, the bill for all this

40:30

is going to be paid by the Gulf with perhaps

40:32

I don't know money from the EU. It

40:37

sounds like a very workable plan to me.

40:40

Some experts see all this

40:42

as a recipe for turning

40:45

Gaza into an increasingly lawless,

40:47

impoverished and physically ruined version

40:49

of Somalia. A ring

40:51

of troops round the Gaza Strip,

40:54

regularly entering it and the cover

40:56

of air and artillery fire to

40:59

try and quell what could

41:01

be a semi-permanent insurgency. In

41:04

Betelal Smotrich and Itamar Bengveer's

41:07

ideal world, most of Gaza's

41:09

Palestinian population would be forced

41:12

to leave it. Of

41:15

course, that would all look very

41:17

different if Netanyahu would actually agree

41:20

to international pressure for real progress

41:22

towards a Palestinian state. But

41:25

that would require him to abandon

41:27

the policy he's staked his political

41:29

reputation on, outright

41:32

opposition to such a state.

41:35

And former Prime Minister Ehud Olmer

41:37

doesn't think he's capable of changing

41:39

his mind. The

41:42

ultimate test for great

41:44

leadership is the ability

41:46

to do the

41:48

opposite of everything that you have ever promised

41:50

to do. If at the time that you

41:52

have to take a decision, you

41:55

find that this is the right thing to do.

41:58

I know this guy for 42

42:00

years, there is nothing inside. Nothing

42:03

can change because there is only

42:05

one thing, him and that's all.

42:08

The question I've been asking myself

42:10

throughout this series is whether Netanyahu

42:13

had a clear ideology or

42:15

whether he just chose the path most

42:17

likely to get him elected. For

42:19

Netanyahu, really, people are always

42:21

trying to crack the code. Is he

42:23

just being strategic or does he really believe these

42:25

things? Polster

42:28

and prominent commentator Dalia

42:30

Scheindling. Does he really

42:32

ideologically support annexation of the West Bank or is

42:34

he just doing it for his coalition partner? Why

42:36

does it matter? My perspective is

42:38

that it doesn't matter anymore. It's impossible

42:41

to separate. She believes that

42:43

had October the 7th not happened,

42:46

Netanyahu would have continued as he was.

42:49

I think that he would have been content to go down in

42:51

history as the person who let that situation

42:53

go on and didn't pay much of

42:55

a price and continued with global normalization,

42:58

marginalized the Palestinians to

43:00

the point where their national dreams are shattered, buried

43:04

and Israel is integrated into the

43:06

Middle East and enjoys

43:08

basically the fatigue of the

43:11

Western world and the shiny

43:13

new partnerships of the non-democratic

43:16

authoritarian world. former

43:18

Netanyahu spokesman Avid Boushinsky

43:21

says October the 7th has really cemented

43:23

how Netanyahu will be

43:26

remembered. He

43:28

was responsible for the,

43:31

you know, not indirectly, but maybe indirectly

43:33

responsible for the biggest

43:35

tragedy in Israel's history.

43:37

Unlike Menachem Begin that

43:39

made the peace treaty

43:41

with Egypt, unlike Rabin

43:43

who made peace treaty

43:45

with Jordan and also

43:48

a court which you can argue was

43:50

good or bad, even Ehud

43:52

Barak that pulled out Israeli troops

43:55

from Lebanon. It is

43:57

very hard to find something tangible that you say in

43:59

a paper. This is Netanyahu. Brzezinski

44:03

says this doesn't just come down to how

44:05

he will be written about in the history

44:08

books. Netanyahu is hoping for

44:10

something much more specific. I'll

44:13

tell you something that will sound ridiculous. When

44:16

you land in Israel, you land

44:18

in Ben-Gurion Airport. The

44:20

famous streets in Tel Aviv and

44:22

in Jerusalem are either

44:25

Ben-Gurion, Moshe Dayan, Menachtenbegin.

44:29

And what will Netanyahu have? He

44:31

wants something like that. He wants to be

44:33

remembered as a big champion. And

44:36

look, it is important for him. If

44:39

we end up in this

44:42

conflict, this current conflict, not

44:45

with our up hand, not the

44:47

winning of this battle,

44:51

I don't know if we're going to name an

44:53

ally under Netanyahu, honestly. Now

44:55

he's a loser. And

44:58

this is about more than Netanyahu's

45:00

personal place in history. What

45:03

about the Israel he will, sooner

45:06

or later, leave behind? Even

45:09

if Netanyahu falls, changes are

45:11

going to be needed if

45:13

Israel wants to avoid sliding

45:15

into what Chuck Schumer calls

45:17

pariah status. Specifically, if

45:19

Israelis are finally going to find

45:21

a way to live at peace

45:23

with the Palestinians. And

45:26

that won't be easy for a future leader,

45:28

not least because of the way

45:30

Netanyahu has managed to swing Israeli

45:33

society to the right. You

45:35

see it very clearly if you plot on

45:37

a graph over the course of his

45:39

his rules after a decade, more than

45:41

a decade, 12 years of Netanyahu's straight

45:43

rule. And the environment in

45:46

Israel was becoming increasingly

45:48

ultra nationalist and populist. Dalia

45:51

Shandouin again. He

45:54

has really empowered that kind of

45:56

discourse and also advanced the people

45:58

within the world. really could, and

46:01

advanced coalition partners from

46:03

other parties who share

46:05

those views, and then they all began outbidding

46:07

with one another to see who could be more

46:09

extreme. And I think the

46:11

result was legitimizing very right-wing extremist views

46:14

in Israeli society, completely

46:16

delegitimizing what

46:19

was once considered left-wing or

46:21

pro-peace or conciliatory views, and

46:23

eventually delegitimizing those who support

46:25

liberal democratic values as some sort of

46:27

lefty, bleeding-heart traitors. And

46:30

yeah, that's very much a feature of Netanyahu's rule. In

46:33

other words, a new Israeli

46:35

leader is going to need

46:37

outstanding courage and vision to

46:39

reverse the legacy bequeathed by

46:41

Netanyahu. For lawyer Talia

46:44

Sasson, that legacy has been, in

46:46

the end, massively

46:48

destructive. He

46:53

tried to

46:55

ruin everything that

46:58

exists here. He

47:00

bombed security,

47:04

democracy, the

47:07

society with a

47:10

huge crisis

47:12

between people in the streets.

47:17

And the situation of people

47:19

today in Israel is

47:22

they feel desperate

47:25

with a war that we don't

47:27

see the end of it. I

47:35

hope Israel would survive Netanyahu. The

47:48

State of Netanyahu was reported by

47:50

me, Donald McIntyre, and written by

47:52

me and Chloe Hajimafayo. It was

47:55

produced by Chloe Hajimafayo. Sound

47:58

design was by... Hey there! Hey

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48:56

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48:58

the news meeting podcast, we try to make

49:00

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49:03

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