0:04

Hi everybody, this is Josh Passera from Agurion, another

0:04

episode of How I Work. I'm joined by Ken Vermille. Thanks for

0:11

being here, Ken.

0:13

Thank you, Josh, for introducing me. I'm super

0:13

glad to be here.

0:17

Yeah, so a little background on Ken. He's the CEO of Vermillion

0:17

Sky, a mobile and app development company that helps startups

0:25

and enterprises build products that people love to use.

0:25

I think our listeners are gonna love this conversation because

0:32

we're gonna get into like what it takes to build SaaS

0:32

and, you know, like what are some of the mistakes and things.

0:40

But before we get into some of those questions, why don't

0:40

you just tell the listeners a little bit about your background?

0:47

kind of computer science and the path you took to get

0:47

to where you are today.

0:51

Awesome. Thank you for that, Josh. So essentially,

0:51

when I was five years old, my mom bought me a Nintendo. It's

1:01

the original Super Mario Nintendo with Duck Hunt.

1:01

And as a five-year-old, I figured out how to put it together,

1:10

how to plug everything in, and make everything

1:10

work. I couldn't beat Super Mario because I was, again, five.

1:17

But

1:17

Yeah.

1:17

I enjoyed the process of playing games. I am

1:17

in pre-med deciding to become a doctor. I'm sitting in a barber

1:30

shop and I'm like thinking like, is this really

1:30

what I wanna do? And there was a magazine like for a video game

1:41

school, like hey, make video games and it'll

1:41

be awesome and change your life.

1:45

Yeah.

1:46

So I decided to, I decided after like the most

1:46

boring DNA lab ever. You know, like, what I mean, I remember

1:57

we spent a week reading about It makes me so

1:57

fascinated. And then it was time to actually do it. And it was

2:07

such a big letdown. I just said, you know what?

2:07

I'm just going to not.

2:11

Can't do it. Can't do it anymore.

2:14

Yeah, I just ended up saying, look, I'll go into

2:14

psychology or whatever. But that's not what ended up happening.

2:20

I ended up going to that video game school, Folsom

2:20

University, and I started on my path to making video games. During

2:30

the time, I realized that the video game industry

2:30

was not treating their employees amazingly, and I essentially

2:40

decided to start a company of my own, clients,

2:44

Right.

2:46

we made a couple of video games and then we realized

2:46

that a lot of our clients were asking for websites to market

2:52

the video game. And then from there, some clients

2:52

asked, hey, do you make mobile games? And it's pretty much the

3:00

same thing to use. We were using the same software

3:00

to use to build video games as they

3:05

Yeah.

3:05

use the mobile games. And we started doing that.

3:05

And then from there, people started asking us for mobile applications.

3:12

And then doing all of those things. So we did

3:12

mobile games, mobile apps, and web applications. And what ended

3:23

up happening was we started to see a trend of

3:23

people coming in, having a super awesome idea. We had the technical

3:31

expertise to build it. There was essentially

3:31

nothing that we couldn't do that wasn't limited by the platform.

3:44

do everything, their product would not be around

3:44

anymore because their business failed.

3:49

Sure.

3:49

So we spent a little bit of time thinking back

3:49

like, you know, we worked on all these projects. Some people

3:58

spending $1,500, $200,000 on building something.

4:03

end up not working.

4:05

Exactly. It

4:06

Yeah.

4:06

didn't work, right? And it was nothing on the

4:06

technical side of things. And we started to think like, okay,

4:13

well, what is the process of building a business

4:13

that actually works, right? And essentially they were kind of

4:20

putting the cart before the horse by saying,

4:20

I have this awesome idea.

4:24

Yeah.

4:24

I want to build this thing. And they didn't really

4:24

have an audience. They didn't have a following. And they would

4:31

launch kind of just to the abyss

4:35

Build it and they will come.

4:38

Yes. And so we thought the same thing, right?

4:38

Because, you know, we're not coming from the business world.

4:44

We were artists, developers, data scientists

4:44

before it was cool.

4:51

Yeah.

5:07

nothing is going to happen.

5:08

Yeah. I do think that founders kind of get themselves

5:08

into that mindset of like, we just need to build stuff. And then

5:18

if people aren't using it, we just need to build more

5:18

features because that's what the problem is. And I do think that

5:24

it has a lot more to do with like, your audience and figuring

5:24

out like, what they actually want and need. I know that you are

5:33

a big believer in like the lean canvas, right? And I think

5:33

that's like, help founders like understand their business concept.

5:41

And so do you want to tell the listeners a little bit

5:41

about Lean Canvas, maybe some of its benefits and why you take

5:50

founders through that?

5:51

Absolutely. Yeah, every time we bring on a new

5:51

client, we need to understand what their strategy, what their

5:59

overall strategy is. Everybody, actually, everybody

5:59

from the designers to the developers need to understand it, mainly

6:06

because there are just micro decisions that happen

6:06

on a day-to-day basis that if

6:11

Yeah.

6:11

we don't know what the long-term strategy is,

6:11

we're gonna make the wrong decision. So what the Lean Canvas

6:19

does, business plan. And it essentially allows

6:19

us to figure out who the target market is, figure out your revenue

6:29

source, the channels that you're going to sell

6:29

through. And it brings it together all in one place.

6:35

Mm-hmm.

6:36

We do an exercise in where we sit down with our

6:36

founders. And actually, sometimes a lot of the times this works

6:44

with established companies. And where we say,

6:44

okay, you want to

6:52

all of these pieces and what it does is it starts

6:52

to make ideas concrete. So they might have an idea of oh yeah

7:03

we're going to sell it to this audience because

7:03

they generally like it right. But if they don't actually know

7:10

like okay well how old is this person? You know

7:10

where would they find you? What communities are they on? How

7:16

are you going to even get too much, all

7:23

Yep.

7:23

this stuff kind of gets covered in that process.

7:23

And there's been plenty of times we've deterred founders from

7:30

building something, even though it would work

7:30

out for us, right? But we've

7:33

Right.

7:34

deterred them from building something that would

7:34

not work. And

7:37

Yeah.

7:37

instead we help them pivot to something that

7:37

might not necessarily be what they wanted to build, but something

7:45

that their audience wants.

7:46

Right. No, I love that. And like the coolest thing I think

7:46

about Lean Canvas is that it's like one page

7:54

MBC 뉴스 김성현입니다.

7:54

because, you know, previously it's like get the 60 page

7:54

business plan and like all these things. And I do think that

8:02

there are just certain like pillars of like what you need

8:02

to understand about your business in order to make like the investment

8:12

in going ahead and building You are almost like obligating founders who want to work

8:16

with you to like have those pillars like really well thought

8:24

out and distill down. I'm sure it makes projects a lot

8:24

more successful.

8:29

Yes, the interesting thing is we did initially

8:29

think that the solution was the 60 page business plan. And we,

8:39

there was a point where we were thinking, like,

8:39

are we in the business of making business plans? Or are we in

8:44

the business of building software?

8:46

Yeah.

8:46

So initially that was my thought. And before

8:46

we even got to the lean canvas, there was a step before that,

8:52

which is called the business model canvas. For

8:52

the business model canvas, for established organizations who

9:02

do have the 60 page business plan, who do have

9:02

established customer data, who have all this stuff right there,

9:09

they're already making money and they can plug

9:09

things in and make it work.

9:15

Yeah.

9:16

The other thing about planning on a page is that

9:16

we don't only just do one page or one iteration, we do multiple

9:24

iterations of what the product could be and then

9:24

we

9:27

Yeah.

9:28

choose that's what.

9:30

That's interesting. That's very cool. So having like the

9:30

front row seat in watching kind of founders bring their ideas

9:39

to the world and having some of that experience of like

9:39

in the early days of just like, yeah, we can help you build that.

9:48

And then you build something, spend a lot of money and

9:48

it falls on its face. Like what would you say some of like the

9:53

biggest mistakes are that you see SaaS entrepreneurs making

9:53

you're working.

10:04

There are a couple. The one that I'm starting

10:04

to see a lot is, hey, this product already exists, therefore

10:13

I can't build it. Or,

10:15

Mm.

10:15

and on the flip side, oh, this product does not

10:15

exist and I should build it.

10:20

Yeah.

10:21

When a product does not exist, like at all, and

10:21

I mean, I'm not saying like my product exists, but it doesn't

10:29

exist in this market. I mean, like this product

10:29

does not exist at all.

10:33

category doesn't even exist.

10:35

Exactly. There's a high, there's a reason why

10:35

it's either it's unfeasible, it doesn't make money, or it is

10:44

a little bit impossible. And because of that,

10:44

people will build something, they'll just go into building something

10:53

that doesn't exist and it doesn't work and you

10:53

know, they're kind of just storing money and there are times

10:58

in where it does work,

11:03

Yeah.

11:03

website, a founder choosing not to build something

11:03

because it already does exist. They see a competitor or as they're

11:11

building their product, they're trying to like

11:11

pivot and tweak their product to match this product that's about

11:16

to come out. To be honest, you should just ignore

11:16

that the competitors exist and really focus on the problems of

11:24

your customers. For example, if you look at CR

11:24

customer relationship management software, there's HubSpot, there's

11:33

all of those things and you know, me being a

11:33

small business owner every week, I'm trying, I'm just, you know,

11:40

trying one on and seeing which one fits because

11:40

each of these different softwares, they cater to a specific set

11:48

of problems.

11:49

Yeah.

11:49

And if they, and the actually super interesting

11:49

thing is as my business grows, it might not make sense for me

11:59

to use like a copper CRM.

12:02

Hmm.

12:03

hub spot. So there are all these factors that

12:03

actually work in between software that has a lot of competition

12:10

that you can just carve out your niche and work

12:10

towards.

12:15

Yeah, one of my favorite examples is like jet.com, who

12:15

a lot of people have never even heard of or whatever. But basically,

12:24

they replicated what Amazon was doing when Amazon was

12:24

only doing books and selling other things online. Amazon obviously

12:35

has its hands in a lot of different parts of tech these

12:35

days. But they took what Amazon was doing, and they replicated

12:42

it, and they became the second to Amazon from a long way

12:42

away, but then they got acquired by Walmart, right? So it's like,

12:51

you know, it's not bad to be second best at times, right?

12:51

So,

12:58

Not at all.

12:58

so we've talked about kind of the mistakes, right? Like

12:58

not building something because it's already exists or building

13:08

some new category that like, man, you're gonna have to

13:08

really hustle

13:15

and talk and understand what you're doing. What about

13:15

like the successful founders that you've worked with? Are there

13:21

like attributes or things that you see them doing that

13:21

the people who are struggling aren't doing?

13:30

A successful founder will meet with their target

13:30

market or their customers on a consistent basis.

13:36

Mm-hmm

13:37

Successful founder is in the field talking to

13:37

people, sometimes even handling customer service requests, and

13:46

really is just embedded in the world of their

13:46

clients problem. All software really does is it solves a problem

13:54

for people. And that problem can change,

14:02

solutions to that problem may come out. And it's

14:02

really important for the founder to be very, very embedded in

14:09

the problem.

14:10

Yeah.

14:11

For instance, if somebody launches a SaaS application

14:11

and they set it and forget it, another competitor will come,

14:22

somebody who is within, who's close to their

14:22

customers, who's building an audience with their customers and

14:27

essentially eat their who is really on top of

14:27

understanding the problem to the point where they can describe

14:37

the problem right back to their customer, that's

14:37

the person that's going to win.

14:43

Yeah.

14:43

A lot of the time, it does involve sitting down

14:43

with people, going to trade shows, doing all of the hustler founder

14:53

stuff, even

14:54

Thank

14:54

giving

14:54

you.

14:55

talks and appearing on podcasts.

14:57

Yeah.

15:00

excellent. And it also makes my job easier because

15:00

that means I don't have to do that for them.

15:07

Yeah, no, that's great. And I think that like, there's

15:07

a lot of people who default to, you know, while we're building

15:16

software as a service. And so what we need to do is figure

15:16

out like, what is our cost per acquisition? And how is it that

15:23

we're going to be able to like build something that scales?

15:23

And so they're so focused on like creating these like campaigns

15:32

and outreach. you know, hit their goals. But what I hear you saying,

15:37

and I think it's very true, is while you might need to do some

15:45

of those things, the real key to success is being belly

15:45

to belly with your customer, understanding exactly what their

15:54

wants and needs are, and building to help them fulfill

15:54

those things. So

16:01

Yeah.

16:02

I love the distinction there.

16:05

Absolutely. I like Belly to Belly because yeah,

16:05

that's exactly what needs to happen. And eventually, you know,

16:11

the founder would not have to do that. Eventually

16:11

you hire somebody who is doing that on the day to day.

16:18

Yep.

16:18

But that person reports to you. And that person

16:18

lets you know, hey, you know, chat, GBT for just released, right.

16:29

We need to, we have to figure out, you know,

16:29

why are people using and why are people excited about it right.

16:34

Yep.

16:37

All of those insights cannot be automated. It

16:37

has to be done by a person who is in the problem.

16:47

So, you know, one thing that I think a good question that

16:47

I think the audience might be interested in is just, you know,

16:55

you own a mobile app and development shop, and you're

16:55

providing these dev services to founders. I think that, you know,

17:06

not all dev shops, not all are created equal. So like,

17:06

do you have some advice that you would give to someone who's

17:14

trying to choose or there any like red flags that founders

17:14

should look for when they are kind of vetting or doing their

17:23

due diligence on software partners.

17:29

Yes, there are well first we'll talk about the

17:29

red flags. So there is a tendency for Software development agencies

17:37

to kind of just build whatever you want them

17:37

to build right, even I fell into this trap and where somebody

17:43

would say hey, I want to build terrible software

17:43

and Look at our balance sheet and we said yes, we will build

17:50

this terrible software for you.

17:51

We

17:51

Right?

17:51

can do that.

17:52

Yeah, exactly, right, but that's that's really

17:52

just short-term thinking

17:58

Mm-hmm.

18:01

We did a survey about a year ago of kind of how

18:01

software agencies do their sales, and a lot of them won't spend

18:11

the time with you to really understand what you're

18:11

trying to build. They'll kind of push you into, okay, well, here's

18:17

a quote, it's $400,000.

18:26

Yep.

18:29

over estimate and under deliver. And it's mainly

18:29

because software development is difficult. It's really difficult

18:38

to figure out like how much something will cost

18:38

and all that stuff. But one way to get around that is to spend

18:47

time in like a longer discovery process. Longer

18:47

than it might make sense, right? So if you do like a two to four

18:57

week discovery process If they're willing to

18:57

do a two to four week discovery process and where they're understanding

19:04

who you are, understanding who your customer

19:04

is, working with you to make sure that you are going to get a

19:09

return on your investment,

19:11

Yeah.

19:12

that is, if they choose not to do that, then

19:12

that's a red flag. So don't like jump into these decisions and

19:20

make them pretty lightly. Yes, you could look

19:20

at portfolios.

19:30

founders will come in and say, have you built

19:30

something like this? Right? Have you built something exactly

19:34

like what I want to build?

19:36

Yeah.

19:36

And generally speaking, 80% of software is just

19:36

the same. And so if you like someone, if somebody says, hey,

19:46

we built something and we could build the same

19:46

thing like in a couple of minutes for you, in like two or three

19:53

weeks for you,

19:57

Yeah.

19:59

that you've seen that you've built something

19:59

similar and they're going to want to sell you on that very quickly.

20:07

On the positive side, an agency that will spend

20:07

time with you, that's good, an agency that also has a focus on

20:17

technical expertise.

20:19

Mm-hmm.

20:29

is integrated and automated tests, we focus on

20:29

making sure that the code is clean. We

20:37

Yeah.

20:37

practice architecture clean code. And what that

20:37

means is that our developers are able to write code. Our developers

20:44

are able to expend less time and energy to get

20:44

things done because we spend time testing and refining and tweaking

20:51

and making it so that as we build,

21:00

We also have

21:01

Yeah, scale.

21:01

a bunch of questions

21:01

All

21:01

that may be quicker.

21:02

right.

21:05

Yes.

21:05

I feel like a piece of this is not only do you need to

21:05

be comfortable with who you're working with, understand their

21:14

technical capabilities, make sure that they are building

21:14

something so that it could potentially scale, not something that

21:25

would have to get completely refactored a year from now

21:25

because you've got 1,000 users and now your Amazon Web Services

21:34

bill is like through the roof because like it's completely

21:34

held together with duct tape on the back end. Right. So like

21:43

there are like decisions that if it's, if they're made

21:43

correctly very early on, they're going to benefit you over the

21:51

long term.

21:52

Absolutely. And a note to that Amazon services

21:52

build, there have been plenty of times that we've, you know,

21:59

we've spoken to clients and they're like, yeah,

21:59

my bill is $10,000. And we're like, there's no reason why it

22:05

should be $10,000. And

22:06

Yeah.

22:07

we'll kind of look at the code and we'll look

22:07

at exactly what they're

22:22

your server scales down and or let's, let's,

22:22

uh, you know, set up a load balancer to kind of manage some of

22:31

this traffic and like there are things that you

22:31

could do to optimize and yes,

22:35

Yeah.

22:36

unfortunately, most of our clients are from people

22:36

who've built something in the past. They had a little bit of

22:44

friction with either the performance of their

22:44

dev team or just the performance of the product

22:49

Yeah.

22:52

It's terrible and the worst code. I'm not going

22:52

to say that. But there are a lot of things that we see that we

22:59

can optimize, right? For instance, a 10k bill,

22:59

if you take that down to You know $1,000 Then that extends the

23:09

server runway for nine months, right?

23:12

Yeah, or it frees up more money to make more investments

23:12

and new features and things like that, right?

23:19

Exactly. And so bad sloppy code and bad DevOps

23:19

management, it is a time not only is it a time slot, but you're

23:28

also spending money on things that you don't

23:28

even need.

23:33

Yeah, yeah. So you go ahead, finish up.

23:36

Yeah. Oh, I said, yeah, we fixed that and make

23:36

it so that, you know, you're not spending money, you're building

23:42

the right product at the right time, and the

23:42

focus isn't just making money in the short term, because generally,

23:50

if we were to build something that would only

23:50

work for a year, most of our clients, they're with us two, three

23:55

years, and that's just problems for us down the

23:55

line.

23:59

Yeah, exactly.

24:00

So instead, we focus on building what makes sense

24:00

skill.

24:08

Yeah. One of the things you briefly mentioned, I heard

24:08

you say, is that you do a lot of like A-B testing and maybe conversion

24:15

rate optimization things with your clients. When we were

24:15

prepping for this, you mentioned that you use amplitude analytics

24:24

funnels and things like this. You know, at Agurian, we

24:24

focus a ton of our energy on understanding data and analytics

24:31

for our clients. We also run A-B tests and do conversion

24:31

rate optimization It was the first time I heard a web dev or

24:42

app dev shop talk about doing A-B tests for their clients.

24:42

Can you talk a little bit about why you do that? Why you see

24:52

it as being important?

24:54

Yes, absolutely. So what we, a lot of the times

24:54

we'll bump heads with our clients, bump heads in the sense of

25:05

they'll tell us that they wanna build something

25:05

and we might give them a little bit of pushback because again,

25:12

we want to build the right thing at the right time.

25:14

Yeah.

25:15

So at the beginning of most projects, we figure

25:15

out what is the shortest distance from the customer,

25:25

Mm-hmm.

25:25

whether that be an in-app purchase or a subscription,

25:25

we figure out, like, what are the steps to get there? And using

25:32

amplitude, we create funnels. So in the application,

25:32

there are steps that a user will take. And then we look at those

25:42

funnels and essentially try to optimize base

25:42

off of that. So let's say download from the app store,

25:54

I was added to the card, move forward, right?

25:56

Yeah.

25:57

Let's say that creating an account is detrimental

25:57

to the conversion rate, right? So we will A-B test, hey, this

26:07

50% of users get the create account option, 50%

26:07

of the users get no account creation option, and we'll look at

26:16

the data and we'll tie real money to it, and

26:16

then we'll see which one makes the most sense.

26:21

Yeah.

26:21

Generally, we don't wanna run too many experiments

26:21

time because then things get muddled. But quarterly, we kind

26:29

of determine what is a goal for the mobile app?

26:29

What is it that you want to fix? Do you want to increase revenue?

26:34

Do you want to increase engagement? Do you just

26:34

want to grow audience use? And so, once we figure out what that

26:41

is, that's when we say, okay, here are the experiments

26:41

that we're going to run. We're going to run one every two weeks.

26:50

And then we're just going to iterate towards

26:50

making sure that we hit that So using amplitude, using feature

26:57

flags, so feature flags allows us to segment

26:57

the audience based off of some internally defined tags and then

27:08

ensuring that we're reviewing those analytics

27:08

on a weekly basis because

27:12

Yeah.

27:12

sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes by implementing

27:12

a feature, you get like a steep drop and we never want to see

27:18

that. Well, difference between our A-B tests, and then

27:24

we decide what the best thing to do is based off of that data.

27:32

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's super important. And to get like

27:32

founders and entrepreneurs in this mindset that like you should

27:41

always be testing and that, you know, if somebody has

27:41

some idea that's different from yours, instead of being resistant

27:49

to like trying that, you should kind of come at these

27:49

projects with this like we should test that mindset like, okay,

27:57

I don't necessarily think that we'll see in the data, like if it does or does not work.

28:02

So it's really cool as a digital marketer and someone who's like

28:10

always pushing our clients to have like this testing mindset

28:10

and trying to figure out like how is it that we can just get

28:18

some of those incremental wins over time through conversion

28:18

rates and other things that you're actually doing that like on

28:26

the front end with your

28:28

Yeah.

28:28

clients well before maybe they would ever engage company

28:28

like ours. So that's very cool.

28:36

And the other thing is it also makes the marketers

28:36

job easier.

28:40

Yeah.

28:40

When you say, hey, we'd love to see analytics.

28:40

Who's using the application? Who's the target customer? Who are

28:46

the whale customers? The customers that spend

28:46

the most money.

28:49

Yeah.

28:50

We can literally say, here you go, right? Here's

28:50

everything. It's all in that attitude. We've set everything up.

28:55

And generally speaking, when we do get like a

28:55

professional marketing

29:04

and everything off to them and allow them to

29:04

do their thing.

29:07

Yeah.

29:08

And in the process of that, there are definitely

29:08

things that they want to try, because the system is already established,

29:14

it's already set up, and they just want to build

29:14

on top of that. And what

29:18

Yeah.

29:20

we found is that those incremental wins, yeah,

29:20

10% here, 5% there, home run, 50%. All of these add up to a really

29:31

well-polished feeling product

29:35

Yeah.

29:36

and no it doesn't happen overnight and yes there

29:36

are times where we're wrong in our hypothesis and our guesses

29:46

but the end result is something that usually

29:46

allows our clients to have some type of financial freedom because

29:54

generally they're non-technical other PhDs who are experts at one thing and they

30:04

want to bring their idea into

30:08

Yeah.

30:08

the marketplace. And so by allowing them to either

30:08

supplement their income or, you know, expand their income significantly,

30:19

it's always a good feeling to see how these small

30:19

tweaks and changes allow the ultimate big success story of seeing

30:27

where they are.

30:30

Yeah, yeah. No, testing mindset is so important in entrepreneurship,

30:30

in marketing, in building software. So it's really cool that

30:39

like we've got that alignment here. So Ken, this has been

30:39

an awesome conversation. I have one last question that I love

30:45

to just ask all my guests. And it's basically like, are

30:45

there any books or podcasts or thought leaders that are influencing

30:54

you today? And if so, why? Who and why?

30:59

What am I reading? I'm reading this book called,

30:59

it's called Hyperion. It's a

31:06

Okay?

31:06

sci-fi book. And the thing that I really like

31:06

about it is, it's completely different than what I would think

31:16

like a sci-fi book would be. It comes from the

31:16

narrative of a couple of passengers and they're talking about

31:23

this planet and there's something on the planet.

31:23

I'm not gonna give any spoilers. this and I'm, you know, watching

31:31

TV and thinking like this book is way better

31:31

than anything that's that's on TV. Why don't they

31:37

Yeah.

31:37

make this series or why don't they make this

31:37

something. And so it kind of puts me in like the sense of yes,

31:48

it might be that TV and movies and things are

31:48

kind of mushing together and everything is like a Marvel thing.

31:54

But there is still you can consume for entertainment

31:54

that's outside of that sphere.

32:02

Yeah.

32:03

And, you

32:05

I just

32:05

know, it

32:05

think,

32:06

inspires

32:06

yeah,

32:06

me

32:06

like

32:06

to keep moving forward.

32:08

what you're talking about is like your own kind of imagination

32:08

of what this world could look like can be so much more vibrant

32:17

than like anything that Netflix could probably produce,

32:17

right? And it's kind of your own. And I do think that that's,

32:23

that's really cool about, about like reading, reading

32:23

books or, you know, on a Kindle or whatever is, is it allows

32:32

for our own to be involved in that process. Whereas when

32:32

you're watching a movie, you're not using any of your own creativity

32:42

to add to that story. So, love it.

32:46

Awesome.

32:46

Cool. Well, thank you so much, Ken, for your time. This

32:46

has been awesome. And that's going to do it for this episode

32:53

of How I Work. Bye, y'all.

32:56

Take care.