0:00

Hello and welcome. You found

0:03

the social work podcast. My name

0:05

is Jonathan Singer, and I'll be your host

0:07

as we explore all things social work.

0:13

Hey there. Podcast listeners, Jonathan

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here. Today's episode is the

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first of a two part series with doctor

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Lisa De about her twenty twenty

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three book, The Emotional Lives of Teenagers,

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raising connected capable and

0:27

compassionate adolescents. In

0:29

today's episode, we talk about the difference

0:32

between adolescent distress and

0:34

adolescent mental illness. How

0:36

the COVID-nineteen pandemic made it more

0:38

difficult for parents to distinguish between

0:41

normative adolescent distress or

0:43

pandemic related mental health concerns.

0:47

Lisa talks about the most destructive myth

0:49

that's out there about adolescent mental health

0:51

today and what we as parents, professionals,

0:54

and as a society can do about it.

0:57

Along the way, Lisa shares some practical

0:59

tips about how to manage a teenage meltdown

1:02

She tells a story about swimming pools

1:04

and she encourages us to think critically

1:07

about the research that's being done on

1:09

adolescent mental health and how the

1:11

news media is portraying adolescent

1:13

distress. Now, I

1:16

mentioned this was a two part series and in part

1:18

two, we'll talk about how decades

1:20

of research on the gender binary can

1:23

provide insight into the emotional lives

1:25

of adolescents across the gender spectrum.

1:28

We'll talk about the intersection of

1:30

race and gender, and we'll end our

1:32

conversation talking about how it's

1:34

important to help teens express

1:36

their emotions and perhaps more

1:39

important to help them regain control.

1:42

Doctor Damour is recognized as a

1:44

thought leader by the American and psychological association,

1:48

she co hosts the Ask Lisa

1:50

Podcasts, which I had the honor and pleasure

1:52

of being on as a guest in

1:54

episode seventy nine talking about

1:56

suicide and youth. She

1:59

also appears as a regular contributor to

2:01

CBS News, works in collaboration

2:04

with UNICEF, and writes about

2:06

adolescence for The New York Times. She's

2:09

a frequent guest on the social work podcast

2:11

and can be heard talking about her. Two

2:13

New York Times bestsellers untangled, guiding

2:16

teenage girls through the seven transitions into

2:19

adulthood in episode 102

2:21

and under pressure, confronting the

2:24

epidemic of stress and anxiety and

2:26

curls in episodes one hundred

2:28

and twenty two and one hundred and twenty

2:30

three. And of course, you're listening

2:32

to her talk about lives

2:35

of teens in episode one

2:37

thirty four. And then if you listen to the

2:39

next episode one thirty five, you'll hear the

2:41

rest of that conversation. Now

2:43

I'd like to thank Grace Durban for

2:45

transcribing episode one hundred and

2:47

thirty two, loving someone

2:50

with suicidal thoughts and interview with Stacey

2:52

Friedmanthal. And if

2:54

you would like to donate a transcript in

2:56

exchange for a shout out on the podcast, please

2:59

contact me on Twitter at SOCWORK

3:02

Podcast or on Facebook.

3:05

And if you want to talk about today's episode

3:07

with tens of thousands of other fans

3:09

of the podcast, join the conversation

3:12

at facebook dot com forward slash

3:14

SW podcast. Links

3:16

to Lisa's book, a transcript of today's

3:18

interview and lots of other goodies are

3:20

on our website at social word podcast

3:23

dot com. And now without

3:25

further ado. On to episode one

3:28

hundred and thirty four of the social work podcast,

3:30

the emotional lives of teenagers part

3:33

one an interview with Lisa

3:35

Damour. So, Lisa,

3:37

thank you so much for being back on the social

3:40

work pod pass talking about the emotional

3:42

lives of teens.

3:44

Jonathan, I'm so happy to be here, and

3:46

this is how we met. When you interviewed me

3:48

for untangled, and it has turned into a wonderful

3:50

a millennial

3:51

friendship, and I'm so grateful. I

3:53

know it's so great. Like, it's it's

3:56

so cool to see all the ways that thinking

3:58

is is changing and evolving and responding

4:00

to what's going on. So you've written

4:02

these two New York Times best selling

4:05

books, right, untangled and under pressure,

4:07

both of which focus on teenage girls.

4:09

Mhmm. And in

4:12

our interviews, you've said that you love taking care

4:14

of girls. And so I'm curious

4:16

about why in your third book,

4:18

the emotional lives of teenagers, you

4:20

decided to write about all teens,

4:22

not just girls.

4:23

Mhmm. So there

4:25

are probably a lot of reasons. You know, one is,

4:28

I heard over and over and

4:31

over again spontaneously from different readers

4:33

you know what, eighty percent of what's in untangled

4:35

and under pressure applies to kids of all genders.

4:38

And that doesn't surprise me. Like that to me

4:40

actually feels to be expected.

4:43

And so then alongside that was a

4:45

call both like, you know, people should be reading

4:47

those books regardless of the gender of

4:49

their kids, or why don't you write about boys? Right?

4:51

So I was getting that, which was fair.

4:54

And in truth, I have done work

4:56

around boys or kids of all genders in

4:58

many domains. I am a practice. I care

5:01

for not not as many boys

5:03

as I do girls. Like and that's just the nature

5:05

of clinical practice. That they can we tend to

5:07

refer adolescent girls to female clinicians

5:10

in the same, you know, opposite for boys. But

5:13

I have cared for boys all through my practice. And

5:17

I have written about the experience of

5:19

boys and kids of all genders for the times

5:21

for years. And then in my podcast, ask

5:23

Lisa the psychology of parenting, we often spend

5:25

a lot of time on boys will say in fact

5:27

more since I've written this book and feel much

5:29

more steeped in the literature around it.

5:32

And so that's one reason. The

5:34

other reason is that the

5:37

pandemic came along and pulled

5:40

my attention to teenagers everywhere.

5:43

Right? What became he most critical

5:46

was not in that moment

5:49

for me, the particular experience of girls

5:51

versus boys, whatever. And I felt like, to the degree, I

5:53

had something to say and that I probably said it.

5:55

But it was much more like, whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

5:57

We have to pull the lens way back

5:59

now and just think about teenagers and

6:02

what they are going through and what this means

6:04

for them? So

6:06

there's been a lot in the media about

6:08

what teens are going through I thought it

6:10

was interesting that you you titled the

6:12

book, the emotional lives. So

6:15

why why are you focusing on

6:18

that aspect of teens as opposed to some

6:20

other aspect of teen life.

6:24

I

6:24

think that really I hadn't haven't thought about

6:26

it. So Hones asked me, but I think

6:28

because pandemic, I think that so

6:30

much of what happened in the pandemic is

6:32

like, you know, we were, like, whatever

6:35

school, whatever everything Like,

6:37

these kids are suffering, and they

6:39

are suffering in close

6:42

quarters with parents who themselves were

6:44

also suffering. And the

6:47

emotional lives of the teenagers was I felt

6:49

like it was all we were talking about because we were

6:51

so worried and so concerned. And

6:56

yet, I really really

6:58

aimed in the book and I'll be interested to get your

7:00

sense of how will I manage this to

7:02

not write a pandemic book, to

7:04

really take the impetus

7:06

of the pandemic, and the fact that there is

7:09

such broad concern about the emotional health

7:11

of teenagers. I mean, the word mental

7:13

health has got to be coming up in the paper.

7:16

Like, at a rate that we've never seen before,

7:18

you know, paired with word adolescent. Like, that like,

7:20

we've never seen that level of discourse

7:23

around.

7:25

Kids in our world. And so I

7:27

sort of feel like it was an incredible

7:30

opportunity to share what

7:32

we know. As researchers and clinicians.

7:36

Hopefully, level set a little bit

7:38

as we come out of the pandemic about what

7:40

emotionality looks like in teenagers with

7:43

or without a pandemic, which is frankly bumpy.

7:45

Right? We know that, and

7:48

then equip families. And

7:50

anyone who's around teenagers to respond

7:52

in ways that are really, really useful

7:55

to kids.

7:57

Well, my take on the book is that

8:00

it is not a pandemic book, but

8:02

I think it's interesting that the

8:06

kind of the like,

8:08

the zeitgeist. Like, there was all this

8:11

news media streaming series

8:13

and and movies and and of course lots

8:15

of empirical research

8:17

looking at anxiety

8:20

and depression. And I'm curious,

8:22

what's your take? Like, are kids more

8:27

like, emotionally distressed? Are

8:29

they are they too emotional

8:31

now? Like, what what what's your take on that?

8:35

I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I I

8:37

also want it. I'm gonna turn around and ask you to say,

8:40

okay. Because because there's

8:42

a few different ways to walk up to this. First

8:44

of all, there's the pre pandemic landscape.

8:46

And what we know from the pre pandemic landscape

8:48

is that we were seeing rising numbers of

8:51

anxiety distress stress and kids'

8:53

depression. And I

8:56

put more stock actually in those

8:58

numbers. Because I think that work was probably

9:00

done much more systematically and with more

9:03

rigid definitions around defining

9:05

anxiety, defining depression as disorders.

9:09

Post pandemic, this is

9:11

my experience, like, kinda hard to tell.

9:13

And the reason I think it's hard to tell,

9:15

especially if you're going by the news media,

9:19

is that I would say

9:21

very rarely if almost never

9:24

is a distinction made in

9:26

news reports about adolescents. Between

9:29

adolescent distress and

9:31

adolescent mental health concerns. Mhmm.

9:34

And that a huge

9:36

problem. Because you have worked

9:38

with teenagers for a long time. I have

9:40

worked with teenagers for a long time.

9:43

We know from decades of experience

9:45

pre pandemic, distress with teenagers

9:48

like, that's a Wednesday. Like, yes, definitely.

9:51

They're not been unusual about

9:53

that. And so I

9:55

want your thoughts on this, but I'll just say one thing.

9:58

That's probably one of the biggest reasons wrote this

10:00

book, which is It is very scary

10:02

right now to be the parent of a teenager or to be a

10:04

teenager if you look at the papers at all.

10:06

And so 1 of the central

10:09

features of this book is to work

10:11

very hard to

10:13

uncouple adolescent distress

10:15

from an adolescent and mental health concern because they are not

10:18

the same thing. Howard Bauchner: I love that

10:20

distinction, and I think it's

10:22

spot on. And I mean, for

10:24

decades, we've talked you know, as professionals

10:28

about there's this continuum. Right?

10:30

And you can get kids that are distressed. And

10:33

then they resolve the distress,

10:35

whatever that looks like, and then they go on.

10:37

It's sort of like little kids who

10:39

get a cold. Right? The problem is not

10:41

that a kid gets sick. It's do they

10:43

get better. Right? And

10:46

that process of like getting sick and getting better,

10:48

like, that's part of normal

10:50

development. And I and I do think

10:52

that there is a lot of panic in parents

10:55

that we are entering this era where

10:57

all of our kids are

11:00

depressed anxious and all

11:03

of the things that go along with that. And

11:05

so what what is that distinction

11:08

for you between like adolescent distress,

11:11

and then these kind of

11:13

what we think of as more

11:16

serious mental health concerns. Where

11:18

are we landing on that these days? So

11:21

it's interesting. You reminded me of a really simple

11:23

definition, but not simplistic, that it's actually

11:25

not in the book. It's it's in other things I've

11:27

written. But, you know, one is, like that cold definition

11:30

is perfect. Right? We fully expect kids

11:32

are gonna get sick. We do not mean that

11:34

does not tell us they are unhealthy kids. It means they

11:36

have a virus. And then they get better. And it

11:38

means actually, the immune system is stronger.

11:41

On the back end of that, in

11:44

that metaphor, what we worry about is kids who

11:46

get sick and get sick or sick or sick or don't

11:48

get better. Right? So that's really clean

11:51

and actually, I think, wildly accurate.

11:54

Definition. For

11:56

this book, I brought

11:59

a few more steps into it because these

12:01

steps then dictate how the book itself lays

12:03

out. And so here are the steps. Number one,

12:05

mental health is not about feeling good, which is

12:08

I will tell you think the greatest and

12:11

most destructive method of circulating right

12:13

now is wildly

12:16

problematic. We can come back

12:18

to that if you want. But rather, mental

12:21

health is A22 part thing. One is

12:23

having feelings that match the moment. So

12:25

if your kid is at an out of control party

12:27

and they're anxious, That's evidence of

12:29

your kids' mental health. And

12:31

again, this feels so radical to suggest that

12:33

distress is actually often evidence

12:36

that kids work perfectly. We're

12:39

not there as a culture, but that I don't from

12:41

a moment doubt that I know that to be true.

12:44

And so I think part of the work of this book is

12:46

to bring that way of thinking, you

12:48

know, across. So

12:50

first having feelings at the moment even

12:52

if they are painful, unwanted, and negative.

12:54

Right? I think that that's a really, really

12:57

big push in terms of what I want accomplish

12:59

with this book. And then the second part, and

13:01

this is where, for me, the question of

13:03

whether or not there's a mental health concern comes

13:05

to light, is how they

13:07

handle the feelings. Right? And what we want

13:09

to see in mental health is that kids

13:11

are using a range of adaptive strategies

13:14

that help them get those feelings processed.

13:18

And by adaptive, I mean no cost

13:20

versus kids using strategies that

13:23

are destructive. May be

13:25

effective, right, that they do help them feel better. Right?

13:27

If you get really high, you're gonna feel better,

13:29

but come with a price tag. And then

13:32

the only other way I would inflect that little

13:34

bit more is we

13:36

never want emotions to be calling all the shots.

13:39

Right? So, you know, think

13:41

about your work and I think about and I think about

13:43

suicidality and adolescence. So

13:46

1 of the other ways we consider that a problem

13:49

is rather than emotions being

13:51

one element that weighs in on daily decision

13:54

making. Emotions are dominating the scene,

13:56

running the show, and dictating how life

13:58

is gonna go.

14:01

Yeah. I

14:03

appreciate you laying out some of those steps.

14:06

I would love to hear more about what

14:08

you said about

14:12

like, feeling good means that you're

14:14

mentally healthy. Can you can you

14:16

talk more about that? Oh, yes.

14:19

I Obviously,

14:24

I can't prove this conclusively, but

14:27

I'm gonna just go ahead and blame the wellness

14:29

industry. And I'm not saying there was

14:31

like some diabolical plot that, you know,

14:33

there's some like evil genius behind the wellness

14:35

industry, but I do feel like there's a whole

14:37

lot of money to be made.

14:40

In convincing people that

14:42

there is some emotional zen

14:45

that can be achieved and then

14:47

can be sustained. And

14:49

then if you just have the

14:52

right products or oils

14:55

or apps or weighted blankets

14:59

or fruity teas, you

15:01

can get there and stay there. Right? So I

15:03

think that that underlies a lot

15:05

of what is marketed.

15:09

And we know that's not true.

15:11

We know that's a set up. What I will

15:13

say and and I wanted to say, where do I think wellness

15:16

comes into things? Because I have no problem with wellness

15:18

per se. I'm much more

15:20

at ease if we talk about using wellness

15:22

practices to maintain a sense

15:24

of emotional equilibrium. Where

15:26

we fully expect. Right? Like,

15:28

you wake up, who knows how your day is gonna

15:30

go? Right? Like, anything could happen. And

15:33

say something really, like, really upsets you.

15:36

There's plenty of room for wellness products,

15:38

whether it's, you know, go

15:40

to a yoga class you know, getting

15:43

under your weight of blanket. To

15:45

bring comfort in a sense of

15:47

finding one sense of well-being

15:50

again or balance again, I have no problem

15:52

with that. What I get

15:55

very uneasy about is

15:57

anyone who is suggesting that

16:01

you are okay or you're it

16:03

is okay only when

16:06

there is the absence of distress in

16:08

a kind of ongoing and permanent way.

16:12

And I do think that that is the message that

16:14

a lot of parents are getting directly

16:17

and indirectly because it it

16:19

sets up these polls, which is

16:22

if you feel good, then

16:24

you're mentally well. And if you feel bad, you're

16:27

mentally ill. Right?

16:29

Which is so scary. It

16:32

is scary because, you know, you know,

16:34

you talked about equilibrium and, you

16:37

know, I imagine the waveform, right, sort

16:39

of up and down Right? And and

16:41

and that's and that's what life is. And

16:43

and a flat line in the medical

16:45

world means that you're dead. But but there is

16:47

this there is this idea with

16:51

with the wellness industry and, you know,

16:53

some ways of thinking that you

16:55

will be able to reach that level

16:58

of feeling good

17:00

and then sustain it and that that

17:02

means you're you're you're healthy. And we know

17:05

that is not at all what people do, but

17:08

definitely not teenagers.

17:10

No. No. Not at all. And it's interesting

17:13

when you talk about the waveform, I thought I've had the thought

17:15

like, oh, and then with teenagers, it's just a

17:17

more pronounced wave four. Yes. Right. Their

17:19

highs are higher. Their lows are lower. Right? Like,

17:21

that's that's a Wednesday.

17:24

Like, it's like, I think think there

17:26

were more we can just sort of come back and say, like,

17:28

offer reassurance. And that's actually, I think, the

17:30

big piece right now, Jonathan. It's

17:33

one thing if you've never had a teenager before

17:37

versus if you know adolescents well. And

17:39

I think a lot about what it's like to be a

17:41

parent right now, say a thirteen year old. And

17:44

say that thirteen year old is acting exactly

17:46

like a thirteen year old. Right? And like they always

17:48

have, which is spicy, you

17:51

know, reactive, opinionated,

17:55

like, that's that's beautiful development

17:57

in a thirteen year old, but it's not always

18:00

have fun. For the people around it

18:02

and it's always fun path on for the kid.

18:05

But I imagine, like, if this is your first

18:07

thirteen year old, And you're like, okay, I'm

18:09

surrounded by headlines telling me

18:11

that things are off the rails. My

18:14

kid is actually happening to have meltdown

18:16

over there. How

18:18

do I know that one or two things either

18:20

that this isn't actually mental health crisis because

18:22

it sure looks pretty bad right now and there's lot

18:24

of warnings about that. Two, how do I

18:26

know that the pandemic didn't break my kid?

18:28

Like, how do I know that this

18:32

is normal and expected development versus

18:34

something that is the aftermath

18:36

of the pandemic, and now I need to think about what

18:38

damage was done to my child. So I

18:41

just I mean, my heart just

18:44

spurts for parents sitting

18:47

with typically developing thirteen

18:50

year olds right now And that was so much of

18:52

the email. It really was like chapter three of like,

18:54

what to expect when you're expecting a teenager?

18:56

Like, this is the scene It is a

18:58

busy and demanding

18:59

scene. Your kid is perfect, but

19:02

it's not that fun all the time.

19:07

It's such a I

19:10

think really helpful frame,

19:13

which is that you could get a kid who's doing

19:15

the exact same thing. But

19:19

the lenses that we're looking at them

19:21

through post pandemic, could

19:24

make it look very different.

19:27

I think so. I think scary. Yeah.

19:30

And And

19:32

I don't think it's an idiosyncratic lens

19:34

right now. I mean, I really feel

19:36

like the headlines are harrowing.

19:38

For parents, and I'm not saying they're all wrong.

19:42

I am saying, they apply

19:44

to a subset, but how do parents

19:46

know if they're in that subset or not?

19:49

Yeah. So two things. 1II

19:51

think that your your

19:53

example speaks

19:56

to the relational nature of

19:58

adolescence. Right? You never have an adolescent

20:00

that is well, almost never do you have an

20:02

adolescent and that's by themselves. Right? Mhmm.

20:04

Right? They are they are freaking

20:06

out. We're having a great day in

20:09

the company of others. And oftentimes, it's

20:11

a parent and that

20:14

the way the parent responds is

20:18

perhaps just as important as

20:20

the way the adolescent responds

20:23

because it's a symbiotic relationship. And

20:27

so how is it that parents should respond

20:30

when their kids are having a

20:32

meltdown?

20:36

Well, let me just say, like, a wide

20:38

frame comment, and then this

20:40

is, like, exactly the question I think

20:42

we need to be asking. There's

20:46

so much concern about an adolescent and mental health

20:48

crisis. Right? And what that means?

20:50

And and what we're gonna do to address it.

20:53

And I am absolutely convinced

20:55

that the solution is not gonna be more

20:57

therapy for more kids because it's actually

20:59

pragmatically impossible. Right.

21:02

I am totally convinced that

21:05

the most available and probably most

21:07

powerful solution is improving the relationship

21:09

between teenagers and the adults in their immediate

21:11

environment. Both from a

21:13

preventative standpoint and also

21:16

when the kitty is having a meltdown, how

21:18

the adult reacts. Is extraordinarily

21:21

powerful. So

21:24

what I'm saying, I would have said in twenty nineteen,

21:27

but I think it takes on new meaning. Where

21:30

we sit now. So,

21:33

what I would say to parents if your kid is having

21:36

a meltdown? Is your

21:38

number one job? The thing you wanna try to

21:40

do the most is to be a steady

21:42

presence. Now,

21:45

this is hard and it's harder

21:47

with the headlines. Right? I mean, I think that that's,

21:49

like, really what is is one of

21:51

the major forces now. But your

21:53

kid needs you to be a study presence for

21:55

many many reasons. So

21:58

number 1, they

22:01

are very scared

22:03

by the intensity of their emotions. And

22:06

they are looking very carefully at

22:09

how we respond to their emotions to

22:11

get a read on how scared to be.

22:13

And so if

22:16

they come home with this failed

22:18

test or this fight with a friend or this

22:21

disagreement with a

22:21

teacher. And they are feeling

22:24

it like a teenager feels it, which is

22:26

acutely

22:27

And they think they have a fifteen year old size problem.

22:30

And then they tell us, and we're like, oh, right?

22:32

And we're reacting strongly or

22:34

we're grabbing the phone or we're on

22:37

the ceiling, we have just

22:39

taken what fell scary to them and made it waste

22:41

carrier because, like, oh, they're like, this was I thought

22:43

this was fifty fifteen year old size problem. This

22:46

is apparently a fifty two year old size problem

22:48

with all you've seen in the world. Like, you think

22:50

this is bad. This is worse than I

22:52

thought. Right? So that's huge.

22:55

The other piece that I think is so essential

22:59

is what they

23:01

need in that moment almost

23:03

always is actually a container, right,

23:06

for the adult to serve as a containing function.

23:09

What that looks like in your kitchen is you say,

23:11

oh, okay. Well, tell me more. Right? Like,

23:13

I can handle this. Like, in fact, keep it coming.

23:16

And then for the adult to say something

23:18

empathic. Right? That sounds awful.

23:21

Like, I'm so sorry. Right? That

23:23

act of curiosity followed by

23:26

empathy communicates so

23:28

much. One, I'm not scared. In

23:30

fact, I'm curious. Right?

23:32

Like, I'm so not scared. I actually just

23:34

lay it out for me. And two,

23:37

I am convinced

23:41

that most of what you need to

23:43

get through this is a sense that you're

23:45

not alone in this and that you are

23:47

heard. And that if I give

23:49

you that, you're gonna probably

23:51

be okay or able

23:54

to figure it out or able to take

23:56

a next step. That

23:58

conviction, like, I'm bringing empathy, I'm

24:00

not bringing much else, is another

24:02

way that we communicate, like, this isn't terrifying

24:05

at a fifty two. I'm not that scared and I'm gonna

24:07

help you bring this back into perspective by

24:11

being a steady presence in the face of it and

24:13

not letting it rock my day and not letting it

24:15

rock my world. Now,

24:17

sometimes you may feel pretty sad. Right?

24:19

And that's okay. Like, we care about our kids.

24:22

I would say even in those moments, if you

24:24

can bake it, but you're probably

24:26

better off. Right? And

24:29

if you can't, you'll figure it out. Right? You

24:31

can come back and repair things, but Our

24:34

initial reaction is, I agree with

24:36

you, exquisitely

24:39

important, and so

24:42

much of this book is about options

24:45

for how to react that

24:47

can help kids feel like they

24:49

don't have to be so terrified of very big

24:51

and painful feelings. I

24:56

think the advice to parents of

25:00

don't make it more than it is. Yeah.

25:04

Really does kind

25:06

of counter a lot of

25:08

what is out there in the news media

25:11

these days, which is and

25:13

and also, you know, companies that

25:16

offer, like, online therapy. Right?

25:18

Where everything is, like, if your kid's

25:21

freaking out get them therapy.

25:23

If they seem overwhelmed, here's

25:26

the number for the 988

25:29

life time. Right? Which I think can

25:31

be great resources, but I really

25:33

like that that you're speaking

25:35

to this idea of from a proportional response.

25:38

Yeah. Yeah. Understanding full

25:40

well that adolescents'

25:43

responses are more intense

25:46

than adult responses. And

25:48

if you think of your adolescent

25:50

response with

25:53

the same metric, as your own

25:55

because if as as a fifty two year old, if

25:57

I am flipping out in

25:59

the same way that my fifteen year old

26:01

is, then that is a problem.

26:04

Right. I mean, it reads like, okay, you've

26:07

seen a lot and you think it's this bad --

26:09

Right. -- which is scary for kids.

26:11

You know, it's interesting. Another version

26:14

of this that I hear about from educators

26:16

is a big uptick in parents calling to

26:18

advocate for their child. And

26:20

of course, like, everything parents do. I really would

26:22

say almost all of it is extremely well meaning.

26:24

Like, I really don't feel that anyone's

26:27

looking to make it bad for their kid. But

26:31

it's interesting because if

26:33

the parent has to call and advocate, which sometimes

26:35

they do, it

26:37

does suggest the scale of the problem

26:40

to be pretty large. And

26:42

what I would say is anytime we can respond

26:45

with a steady presence, and with

26:47

curiosity and empathy, it's

26:49

also a vote of confidence in the kid.

26:51

Right? Like, I think you can handle

26:54

this level of distress. I can handle

26:56

you being in this level of distress. I

26:58

have some strategies to help you handle it like

27:00

being attentive and empathic. But

27:04

I don't feel that this is outside

27:06

the range of what you can

27:07

really, you know, reasonably be expected

27:09

to find your way through.

27:15

So as you were talking reminded me of one

27:17

of my favorite quotes, don't

27:19

mistake my bad days. As a sign of

27:22

weakness. Those are actually the days I'm fighting

27:24

my hardest. By

27:26

jumping in and

27:28

and saying I'm going to manage this

27:30

for you or we're gonna get you outside

27:32

help. It's sort of like you can't handle

27:34

this yourself. Right?

27:38

Which is a terrible message to send to

27:41

a kid who what ultimately

27:43

we want is for them to

27:45

learn how to manage things. Yeah.

27:48

Yeah. No. And it's interesting

27:50

because first of all, we

27:54

have to get the idea that distress is

27:56

part of life back into the discourse.

27:59

Right? Like, we're not we're not really there. Then

28:01

I think the next step is to say, actually,

28:03

the more to stress your kid can tolerate, the more freedom

28:05

they're gonna enjoy. And

28:08

and I think I think we don't

28:10

equate those enough. Right? That

28:13

it's easier an easier way to explain it is

28:16

If kids have to feel guaranteed of

28:18

comfort, they can do very little.

28:22

And so 1 of the things I've been thinking

28:24

about more. And and it's interesting how, like, the book comes

28:26

out and then you're thinking proceeds. It's,

28:28

like, there's a lot to be said

28:31

for helping kids see

28:33

that they cannot tolerate a pretty high

28:35

level of distress. Because

28:37

what it means is that they can take

28:39

class where they're not sure it's gonna go well or that they're gonna

28:42

like the teacher or where they don't know anybody.

28:44

Right? They can go to the you

28:46

know, they can eventually move to a city.

28:49

Where they're starting fresh.

28:51

Like, that's terrifying. Right? But, like, what

28:53

they're learning is, like, yeah, I'll be pretty uncomfortable.

28:57

But I can do that. Like, that is something that's

28:59

within my capacity. And it's interesting

29:01

am I

29:03

swam not at a college level,

29:05

but I swam for a long, long time and

29:09

raced as a high schooler and then did master's swimming

29:11

all through graduate school and also just like slam

29:13

for exercise. For, like, most of my life because

29:15

it was my favorite way to exercise. And

29:17

I remember, you know,

29:20

and I think this is true in so many sports. There's

29:23

a point at the end of a swim race where

29:26

you stop breathing. You stop coming up for

29:28

air. And it's it's usually,

29:30

you know, as early into the last lap

29:32

as you absolutely can. And it is

29:34

horrible. You are

29:36

exhausted and you are sprinting

29:39

and you are not breathing. And

29:42

if you've raised correctly,

29:44

you are a disaster when

29:47

you hit the wall. Right? Like, I mean, you are, like,

29:49

you have spent everything and you have

29:53

deliberately put yourself in a position

29:55

of being quite uncomfortable. And

29:58

I have all through, like,

30:00

high school and college and graduate school.

30:03

I for me and I don't think I've ever said

30:05

this out loud. I really paired my

30:07

capacity, my voluntary capacity

30:10

to do that with my

30:13

ability to sit

30:15

down and get myself through a dissertation,

30:17

which is eight, you know, throughout

30:19

the whole experience. And

30:22

if we think about that as a muscle,

30:26

it's a really valuable muscle. And then the

30:28

really fun thing is I, the sixth grade daughter who's gotten

30:30

into swimming, and to hear her

30:33

talk about when

30:35

they do sets that are very hard and

30:37

like the pleasure I can hear in that

30:39

and I'm like, this is really

30:41

important that kids get

30:43

used to the idea or build that muscle

30:46

to tolerate

30:46

distress. Because you can then write disertations

30:49

and move to fresh cities and, you know, do all sorts

30:51

things that you wanna be able to do in life if

30:53

those are up your alley.

30:56

Your comments speak to not

31:00

necessarily what kids can handle,

31:02

but what parents

31:04

think kids can handle.

31:06

Yeah. I'm

31:09

Jonathan Singer, and thanks for being with me

31:11

today for another episode of the social work podcast.

31:13

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