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0:42

Hi, everybody, producer Al here. It's time for

0:44

another TSFP Presents re-release

0:46

series here on the Monday podcast

0:48

feed. This is a series that was first released for

0:50

patrons over at patreon.com forward

0:53

slash TSFP back in 2019. I

0:56

think this is an underrated entry actually

0:59

in the TSFP Presents canon. It's

1:01

a history of transfers. Phil, Sid,

1:03

and I discuss the biggest transfers,

1:05

the best transfers, the worst transfers,

1:08

the most influential transfers, and

1:10

the most controversial transfers

1:12

in La Liga history. And

1:14

remember, if you enjoy this, there is lots

1:16

more of this kind of thing over at patreon.com

1:19

forward slash TSFP. Join us there.

1:26

Hello and welcome to a brand new series

1:29

of TSFP Presents.

1:30

We're

1:34

calling this- Transfers? A

1:36

history of transfers. Are we? Are we? Yeah.

1:38

Did you just decide that unilaterally? I did. Welcome

1:41

to TSFP, a history of transfers.

1:43

Over the next few weeks, we're going to be talking about

1:45

some of the- The hot. Best, most

1:47

interesting, most controversial, worst

1:50

transfers to have taken place in La Liga over the

1:52

last few years. We're

1:54

starting off

1:55

with the most controversial transfers in

1:58

a country which lives. for

2:00

controversy. It

2:02

really does, I mean it's hard to overstate, I mean we laugh about

2:04

this but but the notion of controversy

2:07

in Spain is so deeply ingrained

2:09

in the way of life, into society and

2:11

certainly into journalism. Yeah, well I

2:13

mean in a way that's kind of what creates

2:16

the controversy, of course it has the elements

2:18

that are there but it's controversial through

2:21

the way that it's played out in the media

2:23

so often, and then obviously then through

2:26

there into the fans and so on.

2:28

I mean anything can be controversial. Yes.

2:30

Anything and everything. Especially

2:34

football and especially transfers. And especially the transfers

2:36

that we are going to talk about on today's

2:38

programme. As I said in subsequent podcasts

2:41

we're going to be talking about the best transfers,

2:44

the ones that played the best for the best value as

2:46

well. Have you ever had the biggest impact, the most

2:48

influential transfers? We can

2:50

certainly do some worse ones as well. Quite a lot

2:53

of very bad transfers around. Yes,

2:55

so we're going to delve into the the history books

2:57

and look back at some of the best,

2:59

worst and most controversial transfers. Some of

3:02

them in the not so distant past and some of

3:04

them very much in the far distant

3:06

past. Yeah, we were talking about this bit just before

3:08

we went on air but obviously possibly the

3:10

most historically controversial

3:12

transfer of all time is

3:14

one that precisely because of that historic significance

3:18

we were going to leave out of today and do

3:20

another time which of course is the signing of Alp which

3:22

takes so much unpacking which takes so

3:24

much historical explaining. How many chapters in

3:26

your book was it? Well it's effectively two

3:29

chapters in my book. I mean there's one that's directly about

3:31

the transfer then about the impact of the Stephanie which

3:33

of course is gigantic is another one. Okay,

3:36

did you want to sort of condense that

3:38

into sort of 30 to 40 seconds? He

3:42

played for Mionarios

3:44

was owned by River Plate and both Ramadhan

3:46

and Barcelona wanted to sign in both Ramadhan

3:49

and Barcelona thought they'd signed in both Ramadhan

3:51

and Barcelona had agreements to sign him and

3:54

he ended up at Ramadhan and how that

3:56

happened is incredibly complex.

3:58

Okay. Do you want to give us a condensed

4:01

version of how that happened? Oh, do you want to save that

4:03

for the part about the most influential transfers? That

4:07

might be the most influential ever. Yeah,

4:10

and as I say, it almost feels like we could do four shows

4:12

on just that. But it's also, I mean,

4:15

it's illustrative in that it involves Real

4:17

Madrid and Barcelona. Several

4:19

of the controversial transfers we're going to talk about involve either

4:21

Real Madrid or Barcelona

4:23

or both, naturally because they are the

4:25

clubs that generate the most noise.

4:28

But I think in particular, some of the interesting

4:30

ones that we're going to talk about is when it's Madrid

4:33

or Barcelona losing a player, you're

4:36

the other one. And I think that tells

4:38

you something about the psyche, the

4:40

idea that when you're Madrid or Barcelona,

4:43

you feel like you are the pinnacle, you

4:45

are the biggest club in the world. You

4:48

should never lose a player if you don't want

4:50

to, unless you let a player go. And so when

4:52

you get a player leaving a Madrid or

4:54

a Barca against the will of the

4:56

club, there's that feeling that something

4:59

in the natural order of things has gone wrong. This

5:01

shouldn't happen. And

5:03

that's why it generates such levels of outro. And also why

5:05

it does so much damage. And obviously,

5:07

you know, one of the natural places to start

5:09

with this is Luis Figo, which is possibly in

5:11

terms of transfers, the biggest there's ever been. I mean, as I say,

5:13

Di Stefano is the biggest in terms of the impact, in

5:15

terms of everything to do with it. When

5:18

you say to a Spanish football fan,

5:21

tell me a controversial transfer. Tell

5:23

me a... Luis Figo. And

5:27

one of the things that's so significant about it isn't just what happened, it's

5:30

the damage that it did to Barcelona. It's

5:32

the way that it destroyed them. And it destroyed

5:35

the presidency of John Gaspard. There's no two ways about

5:37

that. And you talk to Gaspard about this, which I've done.

5:40

And, you know, he is torn apart by

5:41

the remorse from this.

5:43

Yes.

5:47

By the sense that any chance

5:49

he ever had of being a good Barcelona president

5:52

was destroyed by the fact that the first

5:54

thing he did when he took power was have

5:56

to oversee the departure of their best player.

6:00

that he then managed that. And not just the departure.

6:02

Not just the departure, but to Ramajid. And then

6:04

he managed it by his own

6:07

admission so badly. He had all

6:09

this money, there's this great line. He says, we said, I'll

6:11

have all this money from Figo and we'll do Figo

6:14

in a minute, but then there's just kind of the consequences of Figo

6:16

first, which I know is a bit back to front, but it kind of makes

6:18

sense. I had all this money. And

6:21

he said, and instead of doing what I should have done, which

6:23

is say to the board, gentlemen, this

6:26

has happened. We've got to deal

6:28

with it. Let's take this car,

6:30

let's just not lose our

6:32

heads. He said, instead of doing that, he said, I had a big

6:34

suitcase full of money and I went onto the streets

6:37

to sign. And he said, and when you go onto the streets

6:39

to sign with a big suitcase full of money, you're fucked.

6:42

And that's basically what happened. I mean, how many times have we seen that

6:44

when a club sell a player for a lot of

6:46

money and then end up going

6:48

on a spending spree and replaced? Well, this is

6:50

why, this is why, with this historic kind

6:52

of, this historic precedent in mind,

6:55

this is why I was suggesting last summer

6:58

or the summer before rather, that when Neymar

7:00

went, the worst thing Barfana could do was

7:03

go and spend that Neymar money. Yes, no, you are,

7:05

I remember you saying that. And actually, I

7:07

might not be entirely wrong. It's taken a year

7:09

for Dembele to be good, but people are worrying about continuing.

7:12

They spent 300 million euros on those two players. And

7:14

it was partly because of the pressure of going, oh my God,

7:16

we've lost this amazing player. What do we do? Quick,

7:18

let's spend cash. How

7:20

did Figo leave Barfana to join Real Madrid? How

7:23

do we start this? I mean, how do we kind of,

7:27

how do we, I mean, the context and the, oh,

7:30

there's so many elements to this, but let's

7:32

start with the first

7:34

thing is that Luis Figo,

7:37

and this is one of my, one of the many

7:39

stories about Luis Figo's transfers that I really like. Luis

7:42

Figo wins the Ballon d'Or just after joining

7:44

Real Madrid. Essentially has won the Ballon d'Or for what

7:46

he'd done the season before at Barcelona. That's

7:48

the first thing to say. He is the best player in the world.

7:51

And he's absolute team in this world. And

7:53

I know genuinely a brilliant player.

7:56

A guy called Angel Moore, who used to be the, I

7:59

suppose you'd call him the... massouche the kit man

8:01

the kind of the all-round bloke

8:03

in the dressing room at Barcelona for many years for about thirty

8:05

years and before him his dad was this kind of death

8:08

uh... uh... I've gone about

8:10

his destiny is not the word I'm looking for Hereditary.

8:12

Dynasty is the word I'm looking for of

8:14

of kind of confessors of the Barcelona

8:16

faith if you like. You get that with kit men sometimes they

8:18

do tend to be Hereditary positions. Kind of this kind

8:21

of sort of sense of some some sort of spiritual

8:23

importance almost anyway he had created

8:25

this mini museum in his little office

8:28

just off the Barcelona dressing room and

8:30

in this mini museum he had loads of photographs and

8:33

boots and that sort of stuff and he

8:35

asked Louis Figo after he'd left Barcelona

8:37

and after he'd won the Ballon d'Or could he please have a photograph

8:40

of him with the Ballon d'Or for his mini museum.

8:42

Now Figo of course still has a relationship with him even though publicly

8:45

everyone is breaking off relationships with Figo.

8:48

Figo gives him a picture. Louis Figo standing there

8:50

in his rounder kit holding the Ballon d'Or. The

8:52

next time Figo went back to Barcelona

8:55

someone with a blue and red pen had coloured

8:57

in his kit as if to say yeah

8:59

mate you won this playing for Barcelona and

9:02

so this is the best player in the world that Real Madrid

9:04

take from Barcelona. Talk

9:06

about him going back the

9:08

second time he went back to the camp now. This

9:10

may well be the most, I mean genuinely

9:13

I think the most famous picture in Spanish football

9:15

history is a picture of a pig's head

9:17

looking up from the turf at the Camp Nou. Although

9:19

you have to say I think for people who haven't

9:21

seen it if you haven't seen the photo or the images

9:23

or the video when

9:25

we say pig's head you're probably imagining

9:27

it to be quite a bit bigger

9:29

than it actually was. Like it's quite a small pig's head.

9:31

I mean it's a sucking pig. Yeah,

9:33

you know, you've got like in that photo you sort of have to look

9:35

for it before you spot it. Yes you do. But

9:38

at the same time it's still a bloody pig's head. It

9:40

really is. I mean we're not a bloody pig's head. No

9:43

but it would have been a bit oozy. You reckon? Well

9:45

there was a great interview, I remember this really clearly, there was a

9:47

great interview with one of the famous

9:52

cochineal chefs from Segovia, the

9:54

king of the El Rey de los cochineos, the king of the

9:56

cochineos, the king of the sucking pigs in

9:58

marker about a week later. asking

10:01

him about this and him saying this

10:03

is a total lack of respect to the pig you

10:05

know this is a this is a fine dish it's the symbol

10:07

of our city and he said and it would have smelled

10:09

terrible and would have been secreting

10:12

some sort of liquid so who takes that into the

10:14

stadium in the first place? It's a degree of forethought.

10:17

Yes absolutely yeah. But

10:19

I think that you know the suckling pigs

10:22

head is what made this transfer

10:25

perhaps the most iconic of all the controversial... Icon

10:27

is the word isn't it? It's an image.

10:30

Perhaps European football I mean maybe I'm sure there's

10:32

certain madness has gone on in South America but in

10:34

terms of European football. But like you say the funny thing is

10:36

that wasn't even his first trip back as a

10:38

second game and it's also it is worth I

10:40

think we talked about this before but it is worth watching the video

10:42

of how long Luis Figo spends

10:44

trying to take that corner because there

10:47

are so many stop starts before the game eventually

10:49

gets suspended for about 20 minutes by the

10:51

referee because they can't take it because stuff keeps raining

10:53

down. I'm going to try and go

10:55

through the sort of the nuts and bolts if

10:57

you like. I mean there is an entire chapter

11:00

on this transfer in Sid's book Fear

11:02

and Loathing in La Liga so for more

11:04

details information about this transfer

11:07

refer to it to your copy which I'm sure you all have.

11:09

Well I have it open in front of me now just

11:11

because one or two of the kind of the actual

11:14

specific details I wanted to make sure I didn't get wrong

11:16

but I mean the basic context of this is this is the best part in the

11:18

world and there are presidential elections

11:20

at Real Madrid. Now what happens with the

11:22

presidential elections at Real Madrid is that Florentino

11:24

Pérez, who is the current president, is bidding

11:26

to become president of Real Madrid at a time when Real Madrid has just

11:29

won the European Cup so in theory at least he doesn't

11:31

have a very strong chance.

11:33

He carries out a survey basically

11:36

which effectively asks Real Madrid fans

11:38

who they would most like to buy and

11:40

obviously Figo is not the only name that appears but

11:42

Figo's name does appear and this is from

11:44

Barcelona so Florentino Pérez sees the possibility

11:47

of getting someone from Barcelona

11:49

who would be a huge sign, a huge impact

11:52

and of course a huge vote winner. This is

11:54

the key never forget that this is about an election

11:57

company, a huge vote winner.

12:00

clause at the time because he's in the midst of negotiations

12:02

with Barfona which aren't going well over a new contract

12:04

so there is a context there which is he's someone

12:06

who at the very least is prepared to listen to other

12:09

offers and at the very least is

12:11

prepared to try and exercise some pressure and this is

12:13

the key thing on Barfona. His buyout clause

12:15

is 10,000 million per se, around about 38,

12:18

40 million pounds at a time which means a world

12:21

record but actually it's not a buyout clause

12:23

that's totally beyond the realms of the

12:25

possible a bit like Neymar's wasn't when it's

12:27

a period of sea. Florentino

12:29

Perez goes to Figo's agent, a

12:31

guy called Jose Vega and offers

12:33

him 400 million per se, a million

12:35

and a half pounds roughly to sign

12:37

an agreement which says if you

12:40

win the elections I will join Real Madrid.

12:42

Now part of the trump card here for

12:44

Florentino Perez is it's impossible that he's going

12:46

to win the elections. Vega thinks this is money

12:48

for nothing, says okay then and signs

12:51

this deal.

12:53

Of course this deal gets out publicly

12:55

now this deal is supposed to be private as well this gets out publicly

12:58

well of course it gets out publicly

13:01

because for this to help you win an election it needs

13:03

to get out publicly. This is

13:05

when the worst of elections. Yes this is when the worst

13:07

of them and this is absolutely huge.

13:09

Figo denies everything says look I'm not

13:12

going anywhere he's staying here he tells his

13:14

Barcelona teammates and his best mates Luis Enrique

13:16

and Pep Guardiola I'm not leaving. He

13:19

does an interview with Sport newspaper saying

13:21

I can promise you I will be here at

13:23

the start of next season. Florentino

13:25

Perez is a liar he calls him a fantasist

13:28

he says there's no way this is happening.

13:32

But what happens of course is because this has gone out and because

13:34

also and actually one of the things that's forgotten about that election

13:36

campaign Florentino Perez did an incredible

13:39

job in terms of rounding up the postal votes

13:42

so that it wasn't just about winning on the day it

13:44

was about kind of gathering votes in advance

13:46

and very very cleverly

13:49

managed. I love this particular quote Lorento

13:53

Santos course was running against Florentino Perez

13:55

when Figo says this is complete nonsense he's

13:58

course delighted because it dammed images paris's

14:01

election campaign theoretically is all next thing

14:03

you know we can be announcing signing of claudia shiffa

14:05

obviously that doesn't happen down but the signing of

14:07

the state of god when

14:10

boss i confronted by this when

14:13

it looks like front in a bit is going to win the man

14:15

who's about to become the boss on a present is trying to spot

14:17

this one by his presidency is ruined by

14:19

this because this is the start he confronted with

14:21

an issue which is the only way you can stop

14:23

this is by paying a penalty clause kazpia

14:26

going paris has agreed a penalty clause five

14:29

thousand million status nineteen million

14:31

pounds effectively a

14:33

figure according to gas but basically

14:36

begs him please pay this you know we've really fucked

14:38

up my agent has got this horribly wrong

14:40

he's practically suicidal he's crying

14:43

he's under pressure he knows he's got this wrong pay

14:45

this clause and i'll stay and that's the end of it

14:49

but that's part things well i would

14:51

have to effectively pay the fifth highest chance

14:53

of the in history to sign

14:55

my own player and there's another

14:57

problem had made a promise

14:59

to an election campaign if he

15:02

doesn't come

15:04

come to games for free free season

15:07

every season to go to get to see the gift for free so

15:09

the way that that's part of the system on i

15:11

would be paying the seventy thousand

15:14

roundred fans to go for

15:16

football for free for a year me

15:18

the president of barcelona would be paid for a

15:20

roundred panther football for any decided i've

15:22

just come to so in

15:24

the end he decided the whole season negotiations

15:27

to try to get out of he can't stop you

15:29

subsequently spoken to him to see regret that decision

15:32

to see feel that he should find out i

15:34

know he he says he doesn't regret that

15:36

decision because he could

15:38

not have accepted that right enough accepted

15:41

that the president about so not does that but

15:44

i think he regrets that he was in a position where he couldn't

15:46

do anything else uh... i think he

15:49

is he must really hate the agent

15:51

yes he really does and i think you really hate the

15:53

only says him if you go spoken and i think

15:55

that he feels maneuver that i have

15:57

to say he feels like it killed him as well Figo

16:00

by the way, when I spoke to Figo about this, Figo's

16:02

very interesting. Because Figo's like...

16:04

Do you believe him? Yes, because

16:07

actually I think he was surprisingly honest because listen to some of

16:09

the things he said. He said, I said to him, direct

16:11

question, did you want to go to Ramajid? And

16:13

he said, uh, empezos shindun

16:15

kalinton. He said empezos shindul

16:17

kalinton. In other words, it started with me being angry,

16:20

a hot-headed moment, and it ended up being true. In

16:22

other words, him saying to Basa, stop pissing around,

16:24

I'm going to Ramajid, outside now, that'll

16:26

show him. And then realising, oh. And

16:29

there's another line he says, which I think is absolutely

16:31

key, and he said, it didn't only depend on

16:33

me. I think, no

16:35

doubt about it, Figo did want to go, was

16:37

manoeuvred into position when he couldn't get out of it, and

16:39

the biggest transfer in history happened, despite

16:42

the fact that only one person really wanted it to happen.

16:45

And that was Florentino who got what he wanted. He did,

16:47

he often does. Yes, he does, yeah, yeah, that is

16:49

true. Yes, so I mean, he played an absolute blinder there,

16:51

to be honest. Yes, he did, oh, without doubt.

16:53

Without doubt. We're going to move on, but obviously

16:56

we kicked off and spent quite a bit of time on that because

16:58

it is the biggest of controversial transfers. Well,

17:00

there's been nothing like it since, and there

17:02

wasn't anything quite like it before either. No,

17:05

having said that, we're going to move on and talk about another

17:08

transfer involving both Barcelona

17:10

and Real Madrid, that of the current

17:12

Spain national coach, Luis Enrique. Going the

17:14

other way. Going the other way. But not

17:17

in the same circumstances. No, not quite. No, but

17:19

there's a degree of anger. Certainly, until

17:21

Figo happened, because of course, bear in mind that Luis Enrique's happened

17:23

in 1995, I think, or 1996. In

17:27

terms of anger, that was huge

17:29

for a long time. It's been completely eclipsed by

17:31

Figo. By the time, it was absolutely enormous,

17:34

the response to that. Of course, the difference being that in

17:36

this case, it wasn't the case of a buyout clause

17:38

being paid. It was the end of his contract.

17:40

They couldn't agree on new contracts. And so he

17:42

could go where he... And also he always

17:45

felt that he was pushed out by Real Madrid. Well,

17:47

he had a difficult relationship even before that

17:50

with the fans, didn't he? Where

17:52

he was, to a certain extent, targeted by the three

17:54

boys. Even if one of those were not... Things weren't going well.

17:56

He always... He was a very difficult relationship. Yeah, he always

17:59

felt... He felt kind of alone, he felt

18:01

under pressure, he felt that people blamed him. And

18:03

they were just- He was pushed around the team in terms of position

18:05

as well. He wasn't getting in the team. There was

18:07

a moment when he was left out the team,

18:10

quite a nice quote from Jorge Valana, who was the manager of

18:12

course at the time, had left him out saying, I'm gonna

18:14

rest him. And

18:17

Luis Enrique coming out and basically saying, I'm so rested,

18:19

I can't remember if the phrase was, I'm so rested I could

18:21

run up Everest. Or something like that. It was along those

18:23

lines, you know. But rested, I don't need

18:25

to be rested. He's always been very quotable in that

18:27

sense. Obviously what made that big in a way was his response

18:29

afterwards. Was how completely he embraced

18:32

Barcelona as a way of

18:34

kind of turning his nose at Madrid. And there's

18:36

a lovely line where he talks about how he sees photographs

18:38

of himself in white and it doesn't look right to him.

18:41

Well that is a good quote as well. White's not my colour.

18:45

That's an excellent quote. And obviously he was, as you said,

18:48

quite passionate whenever he played four bar stone

18:50

against. And talking about passion as well, there's

18:52

a great symmetry in terms of one

18:55

of his most famous goal celebrations, which

18:57

is one he had done, I think when

18:59

he scored for Madrid against Barca, when he pulled

19:01

down the shirt. And then he replicated exactly

19:04

the same celebration, but wearing a Barcelona

19:06

shirt when he scored against Real Madrid I think in his second

19:08

year as a Barca player. End up scoring

19:11

five goals over the course of his career

19:13

as a Barca player against Real Madrid as well.

19:16

And there was some complaints after he celebrated

19:18

like mad, having scored against Real Madrid. I think it

19:20

Lorenz De Santo was the president at the time. The one who

19:22

then lost to Florentino. And moaning about

19:25

how much he was celebrating and Luis Enrique came off

19:27

the game and said, well, if he wants, next time I'll cry. Yes.

19:32

So Luis Enrique, very

19:35

quotable, isn't he? He's great. And

19:37

also in all of this, of course, this kind of background

19:39

rivalry, Real Madrid thing, my

19:42

favourite moment, which is sort of related

19:44

to this, but maybe not entirely, was his first season

19:46

as manager of Barcelona, when

19:48

that kind of underlying

19:51

prickliness, but also I think he enjoyed it. I

19:53

think he enjoyed the winding up and he enjoyed playing the game. And

19:56

there was that famous, because it was bizarre

19:58

quote on the front of us, and he was struggling saying

20:00

Lewis and Marike is swimming through chewing

20:02

gum. Yes. And no one knew what this meant. It didn't

20:05

mean anything. It was total nonsense. Anyway, two

20:07

weeks later, building up for the Classico, Lewis

20:09

and Marike, a manager at Barflerner, puts a photo

20:11

up on Instagram or Twitter saying, here we

20:13

are in the office preparing for the Classico,

20:16

and it's him and his staff and the computers there and all

20:18

over. And just in the foreground, just in the corner

20:20

of the desk, is a packet of chewing gum. And you know 100%

20:22

that was deliberate. There's

20:24

also a great picture of him and

20:26

Zidane sort of going at it. Yeah. And

20:29

you know, he's there as well, always trying to hold Zidane

20:31

back. Yeah, they get right up in each other's faces.

20:34

That is a brilliant photo. But yeah, as you say, you know,

20:36

before Figo happened, this was a big deal. Yeah.

20:39

And you know, I was right. It

20:41

wasn't the same in the sense that, you know, people could understand

20:44

the fact that he was leaving. People understand the fact that he wanted to go.

20:47

But it was that he sort of reveled in the rivalry

20:49

afterwards, and he kept saying, you know, Barflerner's a great place,

20:51

Catlands are wonderful. He was effectively saying,

20:54

you lot, I'll be yours. Yeah.

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22:14

Is it worth mentioning, before we move on to other clubs and

22:16

other rivalries, one player who played

22:18

for both clubs we've talked about many times before

22:21

in these podcasts. Gorgeous. Lovely. But

22:23

the difference being that he is still

22:25

sort of loved by both Michael

22:28

Laudrup. Partly because when he played his first

22:30

game for Real Madrid against Barcelona, the

22:33

fans were vicious and he was

22:35

clearly very badly affected by it. And

22:38

because he was so decent and because everybody

22:40

knew that fundamentally he'd been forced out of Barcelona

22:42

by Cruyff, that fundamentally he was

22:45

in a position where he couldn't stay, I actually

22:48

think the fans felt guilty at how

22:50

badly they treated him on that game back. And so since

22:52

then they backed away from it a bit and he always conducted

22:54

himself with such dignity that now the battle

22:57

between Madrid and Barcelona fans over Laudrup is

22:59

almost for ownership. It's like,

23:01

oh he's more ours than yours, but we both love him. Well I mean

23:03

he was only a Real Madrid player for two years.

23:05

He was five years at Barca. It was enough

23:07

to make him the king of Spain. You've

23:11

told that story a number of times. I have, yeah. I'm not going to tell

23:14

it again. The actual king of Spain. Telling

23:16

him he was the king of Spain. He was the king

23:18

of Spain. But yes, you're right, there is something of a

23:20

battle for ownership over the legend

23:22

of Michael Laudrup. Very much different to the other two

23:25

cases that we've mentioned. Very much different.

23:27

Moving on and talking about

23:30

Real Madrid, but with another team

23:32

involved, that of Valencia, and the start

23:35

of a real rivalry

23:37

between these two clubs. And it began with the transfer

23:40

of Petya Mijatovic from Valencia

23:43

to Real Madrid. Before this, these

23:45

two clubs had a pretty cordial relationship.

23:47

Yeah, yeah. I mean admittedly it started to... The fans

23:49

didn't hate each other? No, it started to turn

23:51

a little bit because Paka Rocha, who was the president

23:54

of Valencia at the time, was quite pugnacious

23:56

and was very conscious of trying to make Valencia

23:59

big. And the curious thing is that the

24:02

Miataevich kind of created

24:05

or at the very least crystallized

24:07

the rivalry between Valencia and Real Madrid.

24:10

And Paco Roch was very vociferous about it and yet he

24:13

hadn't wanted to sign Miataevich in the first place. He

24:15

wanted to sign Romario. Romario went to Barcona, Miataevich

24:17

went to Valencia. Miataevich was

24:19

absolutely brilliant, Valencia. The

24:22

key striker in that season when Aftletti win the double and

24:24

Valencia go to the final day with a chance of winning it. I

24:27

think he scored 28 goals in 1995-96 and Real Madrid come for him. Yeah,

24:31

once again a case of he was their best and most important

24:33

player, Madrid say we'll have some of that. Yeah,

24:36

and Madrid say we'll have some of that and play the buyout clause

24:38

as well. So this was done behind Valencia's back and

24:40

it was, I mean obviously that's the real reason.

24:42

It's not just the fact that he went, although there's a big part

24:44

of that. It's the way it was played

24:47

out. Why did this leave such

24:49

a scar on Valencia Nismo? Why

24:51

did it cause such a deep rooted

24:53

sort of... I think because they

24:55

felt that, first of all because he was brilliant, at

24:58

a time when this Valencia team probably

25:02

were in a position where I thought we could become

25:04

the biggest team in Spain or

25:06

a genuine contender, as I say, in with a chance win the league in 1996.

25:09

Cup finalists in the famous Cup Final against Depor,

25:12

is it the following year or the year before? The year

25:14

before I think. But you know a really, really strong side.

25:16

It's also to say the way it happened, so there's a moment

25:18

when Paka Roch goes to Miataevich's house.

25:21

Now of course all these stories get told. That's the other thing in all this. Manipulation

25:25

is the order of the day in so many of these

25:27

cases and that's certainly true, for example, another

25:29

transfer that maybe we'll talk about today

25:31

or on another day, which is the departure of

25:33

Sofia Ramos from Sevilla to Ramdre. There's

25:35

a lot of manipulation there. But

25:38

Paka Roch goes to his house and says, look me in the eyes and

25:40

tell me you're not leaving. And Miataevich says, don't worry,

25:42

I'm not going. Paka Roch had given him

25:45

an expensive watch as a kind of a gesture of

25:47

good faith because they were going through contract negotiations.

25:49

And of course he knew that the buyout

25:52

clause, which was 1,250 million pesetas, he took it around

25:56

about 7 million pounds, 7-8 million pounds.

25:59

in 96 which is a lot of money but

26:02

not

26:02

impossible to pay and then

26:05

also Miatovic towards the end at a time when

26:07

he's saying that this isn't done he had a

26:10

like a kind of a what would you call it an enquenta

26:12

a dinner I suppose a meeting with

26:14

the supporters clubs of Valencia and he

26:16

told them he wasn't leaving and

26:18

I think that was part of it and of course so when it broke

26:21

they're like hang on it's not just that you're going you told

26:23

us you weren't. Maybe that okay

26:25

he went in those kind of circumstances and

26:27

then did what he did with Roman Good as well. Because

26:29

the other thing is when he finally went he thought it

26:31

would help him to say look nothing against

26:34

you you've supported me and by the way they're supporting

26:36

when his son Luca was very very very

26:38

ill in childbirth there's all sorts

26:40

of problems and Luca eventually passed away I'm not

26:42

quite sure how long after but

26:46

the Valencia fans had really supported me with

26:48

banners and chants and so on and backed

26:50

him and he said look I really appreciate everything

26:52

you've done but and he thought he was helping

26:55

he said but I want to go and win things and of course

26:57

this Valencia team that is emerging

27:00

is essentially saying what so

27:02

you're now saying we can't win things and of course as you say

27:04

that was then reinforced by him going and winning a European Cup.

27:07

When he goes and winning a European Cup. So that actually

27:09

should have helped him in a way but didn't. But like you say that

27:12

the scars you know when some senses

27:15

continue this day but in terms of the relationship between the

27:17

clubs you then had some big moments

27:19

like when Madrid wanted to sign Mendieta for example.

27:22

And Valencia basically fought it. And Valencia sent

27:24

him to Lazio. And from Madrid's point of view that's

27:26

exactly part of it. It's like you can't have him we'll give

27:28

him to them just so you can't have him. And

27:30

Madrid certainly I think would

27:33

feel that they don't understand

27:35

or maybe they do understand but they don't appreciate or they

27:37

don't like the fact that Valencia being perfectly

27:40

happy to sell players to Barcelona

27:42

and significantly less happy to sell players to Real

27:44

Madrid. And they would say well you know this

27:46

is absurd this doesn't mean anything this is this

27:49

anti-Madarista feeling and

27:51

within Madrid at least they would say that they don't understand

27:53

it from Valencia. But it starts with me as much. And

27:56

it's still there I think. Yes it is. At

27:58

a certain level. Moving on and. discussing

28:00

another A Realm of Driddle Legends and

28:03

an A Realm

29:46

of Driddle Legends. I

30:00

bet he's handsome, I bet he's rich, I bet

30:02

he's treating you better than I ever did, all this sort of stuff.

30:04

I can't for the life of anything which song that is. But

30:07

Hugo Sanchez then went on and scored a

30:09

hell of a lot of goals for El Madrid as well, without

30:11

many touches. Yeah, that season where

30:13

he gets 38 goals all over a single touch

30:16

is just bonkers, isn't it? And

30:19

by the way, that was a record

30:21

that had stood for 50 years until Messi and Ronaldo

30:23

and actually Luis Suarez overtook it in

30:25

the last, what, six, seven years. In

30:28

terms of scoring that number of goals? How many goals? 38 goals

30:30

as the league season, and just an extraordinary

30:32

record. It really is actually. Yeah, it's

30:35

incredible. I mean, I think it was Telmor

30:37

Thada who had done it before him, and so you're

30:39

talking off the top of my head, I can't tell you, but

30:41

I think it's 50 years between Thada and Hugo

30:44

Sanchez. And of course, Hugo Sanchez, who did it in 1990,

30:47

I think, would have, obviously

30:49

by definition, held onto that record for what, 22,

30:51

23 years before anyone else had overtaken it? Quite

30:54

something. But as you say, it did

30:56

not go down very well with the Elmora Madrid fans. They're

30:58

still to this day, as we said. They still hate him. They

31:00

still hate him. Absolutely hate him. Yes.

31:03

Yes. Let's talk about Danielson.

31:05

No, no, sorry, not

31:07

Danielson, the other one. Rivaldo. Rivaldo,

31:09

another tricky Brazilian. Yeah, another tricky Brazilian. Let's

31:12

talk about Rivaldo and his move from Deportivo

31:14

La Coruña to Barcelona. There's

31:17

a theme developing here because this is another buyout clause.

31:20

Because of course, that's the way to have a hostile bid and get away

31:22

with it. So yeah, this was what? It was 4,000

31:25

million per se. Which is, I mean, it used to

31:27

be the rough rule of thumb was you take off the last two

31:29

noughts and half it. So 4,000 million per se is around

31:32

about 20 million pounds. That's the time when that was a

31:34

lot of money. So this is only a year after Miata? Plus

31:36

that, by the way. Because they had to pay,

31:38

I think, 600 million euros a million per se. So

31:42

why is this controversial?

31:44

Well I don't, in some ways, I don't

31:47

think it is that controversial, in some ways.

31:49

Let me explain by what I mean by that. There

31:53

were a lot of Deportivo fans, even in this era,

31:55

because this is 96, 97, the year I

31:59

lived in... or the other that he played for Depo and he was absolutely

32:01

brilliant. Even then when

32:04

Depo aspired to be a great team,

32:06

when obviously they don't know at this stage, but they're only two years

32:08

off winning the league title and all that sort of

32:10

thing, there's still a sensation that look, it's

32:12

natural when you best players go to the match and it's kind

32:14

of what happens unless you really do aspire

32:17

to be very, very big. So in that sense, it sort

32:19

of wasn't that controversial. I think what was controversial

32:21

was, again, the sense that they

32:24

applied the buyout clause. They made it impossible

32:27

for Depo to do anything about it. And it was

32:29

quite late on in terms of the team. He

32:32

played in the... Toreserreira?

32:35

Toreserreira. No. Ereda.

32:39

No. Profeoreira. Whatever

32:41

the preseason... I forgot, my mind's going totally blank.

32:43

Yes, it is. The preseason Depo

32:46

Tivo tournament, the day before I

32:48

think, and scored a penalty as well. And

32:51

he... I think what made

32:53

it kind of controversial was that it happened so late,

32:56

was that Barcelona kept on trying to do a deal that

32:58

they weren't interested in and said, all right, well, we'll pay

33:00

it then. End of story. Barcelona,

33:02

by the way, the day they signed him, Steve

33:05

McManaman was in a hotel in Barcelona, waiting for him to sign to

33:07

Barcelona. The reason McManaman didn't sign for Barcelona

33:10

was because Rivaldo did. That's a great

33:12

story. Is that in your book? No. Oh,

33:15

wow. Yeah, yeah. It's a good one,

33:17

isn't it? Obviously. And

33:20

taken on every single word. Yes, yes,

33:22

yes. Oh, wow. So McManaman then obviously went

33:24

to Real Madrid and won two European countries.

33:26

Did all right. Yeah, yeah. I

33:28

was including scoring in the semi-final against Barcelona at the Camp Nou. So, you know,

33:30

Macca came out of it all right. But I think it was that. And

33:32

also, I think it was the coldness that Rivaldo showed.

33:35

And I also think there was this sort of a sense that there was

33:37

a frustration because Barcelona had cocked

33:39

up really badly and lost Brazilian Ronaldo

33:42

in that season when he had been the best player I'd ever seen

33:44

in terms of a single season in terms of impact,

33:46

in terms of, God, where's this guy from? This is amazing.

33:50

And they lost him at the end of the season because they... Maybe he might appear

33:53

in the best trends for this. Yes, absolutely.

33:55

And, you know, they lost him in

33:58

a deal to Inter Milan basically. didn't

34:00

control the situation with his contract

34:02

renewals and so on and I think there was a frustration

34:04

in academia but the fact that oh

34:07

you lose our guy and we're the ones who pay for

34:09

it. Okay moving on last

34:11

couple of controversial transfers.

34:14

Let's spread our wings a bit and go a bit

34:16

more around Spain. Yeah let's go to the Basque

34:18

country shall we? Let's go to the Basque country right.

34:20

Tell me Sydney about the

34:23

transfer involving Joseber and Cheber. Well

34:25

let's start with what happened recently

34:29

the signing of Inigo Martini from

34:31

Athletic Bilbao. Which is probably I mean we've talked about Figo

34:33

since Figo in Inigo Martini's might

34:35

be the most controversial. Yes he might.

34:39

And again this is partly not just because the transfer in

34:41

itself because even for the

34:43

outside of that and at the Bilbao with the rivalry

34:45

it's got even within that there is I

34:47

wouldn't say an acceptance but there is an awareness from Raul

34:50

Safford that Athletic Bilbao have financial muscle

34:52

that can come for your players and of course

34:54

the buyout clause was paid but it's not just that it's that Inigo

34:56

Martini in 2014 said I would never

34:58

pay for the other side. Never. Never.

35:01

And of course money came and he did. Now where else did I knew

35:03

this would happen? They knew well in advance it would happen.

35:05

They knew this was a possibility and this is one

35:08

of the frustrations the fact that he didn't go to play

35:10

with Ernesto Valverde at Barcelona because I would have prevented

35:12

him from going to Athletic Bilbao. But

35:14

what this really did was recover or remind

35:17

people of the Echeber Dia transfer which

35:19

I think was the beginning of a certain,

35:21

maybe not the beginning but again the crystallization if

35:24

you like of a certain sense of tension

35:27

between Raul Safford and Athletic Bilbao partly because

35:29

Raul Safford at that feel yeah it's all well and good Athletic

35:31

Bilbao saying they're the best national team they're

35:33

the ones who symbolise they'll scare the they're

35:36

the ones who have this policy but actually

35:38

they can only do it because they have the financial muscle to take kids

35:40

off us when they're very young. That's

35:42

the thing is that it's the frustration

35:45

and the anger at saying you present yourself as

35:47

a team of Kandera of Youth System but

35:50

you are the big shark if you like in the Youth System

35:52

pool and of course Echeber

35:54

is a good example of that because he

35:56

signed at 17. You know this star

35:58

player who signed a huge... amount of money by

36:00

the way. But it was the most expensive ever under 18

36:03

player in Spain. 550 million pesetas

36:05

again take the last two digits off and half it two and a half

36:08

three million pounds more or less. Not

36:10

a massive amount of money but as you say a huge amount of money

36:12

in July 95 for a 17 year old. Again

36:14

there's a certain

36:17

degree of mythology in this in that

36:20

the two clubs were talking or were trying to

36:22

talk. Athletic were trying to talk to Rosatello, trying

36:24

to make offers. At the

36:26

same time Echeverria was

36:28

in contract renegotiations with Rosatello. I think

36:30

he wanted 150,000 pesetas which is not actually

36:33

a huge amount of money annually.

36:36

Wasn't offered it. He'd just come off the back I think

36:38

of being quite successful with Spain's under 20s at the World

36:40

Cup and so there was this kind of sense that you know this

36:42

is a really good kid who you've got

36:44

to give a good deal to to keep him and

36:47

then he went and of course what that does is then it reinforces

36:49

the idea that he went for money and

36:51

he went because they had more financial muscle. It's

36:54

also probably true that Athletic are the bigger

36:56

club if not always

36:58

purely in footballing terms but the bigger institution

37:01

anyway. I remember a photograph in Aas or Marker

37:03

of his first game back

37:10

at Annuetta for Athletic Bill Bao. Was

37:12

it Annuetta? First game back it was at Annuetta

37:15

with a running track and a photograph

37:17

and people were throwing bottles

37:19

at him. Obviously with a running track it was very unlikely that he was going to reach

37:21

it. I remember this photograph and it was kind of done on a wide-angle

37:24

picture so you could get some of the running track in with a

37:27

circle around all the bottles. I think they counted 18 or something. 17

37:29

or 18 of these bottles. As

37:33

I say it was more that symbolism of yeah

37:35

okay you talk about Cantara but you're talking about our Cantadanos.

37:38

Yes so that's a bit more like a big brother.

37:42

Yeah sort of a bully big brother

37:44

thing. Well there we go. Two

37:47

Basque signings

37:49

there and as we say Lino Martínez the

37:51

more recent one and that was pretty

37:54

hurtful for Larréal.

37:56

Let's finish by talking about Sosuia. I

38:00

like it. Yes, the um well

38:02

he's not a neo-nazi or is he? Well

38:04

I don't know. I'm really uneasy about

38:06

giving an answer to that. I never got to the bottom of it but he

38:08

certainly claimed that he wasn't. No.

38:11

I

38:11

think it's quite complicated because

38:13

of the situation in Ukraine. Yes. But anyway, his

38:16

lone move to to Rovai kind of

38:18

didn't work out. It was short-lived,

38:20

lasted hours and hours from

38:22

Betis before he was

38:25

sent on his way unfortunately. Yes obviously

38:27

Rovai kind of famously have left-leaning

38:30

ultras at least anyway and they weren't

38:32

happy with some of the comments that

38:35

Sosulia had posted. Yeah some of the photographs as well with

38:37

some of the militia groups that he'd supported,

38:42

actively supported in Ukraine. As you say

38:45

it's complex and it's one I can't claim to know

38:47

enough about because of the nature of the relationship

38:50

with well with political ideologies for the start

38:52

but also in particular the nature of the of

38:54

the Ukraine-Russian conflict and what that

38:57

means that the iconography really

38:59

means if you sort of mean. That's quite

39:01

a lot of means then wasn't it? No but I mean ultimately

39:04

it shows the sort of the fan

39:06

power that was exercised. Also

39:09

had a happy ending is now at Alba Sette. Yes. Are

39:11

you doing all right? I think. Yeah. I'm not sure

39:13

how happy it is to end up at

39:15

Alba Sette. Sorry about that Alba

39:17

Setteños. Yes but there. Right

39:20

there we go. We went on a little bit longer than we thought

39:22

we might but I think this that might be a running one

39:25

very very brief fight to add

39:27

to this because that was a deal that didn't happen because

39:29

these own fans were unhappy. The other one very

39:32

famously recently Danny Guifer who

39:35

started his career at Kaddith. He went around

39:37

lots and lots of places and said lots of very silly things

39:39

over the years. One of the things he said that he said we

39:41

never ever played for Kaddith. Kaddith then signed

39:44

him at his own presentation

39:47

as he's there doing the kick-ups they're shouting

39:49

abuse at him. Well played Daniel. Yes. If there's

39:51

one thing we've learned in this episode if you're

39:53

a player never say never. Just

39:55

keep your mouth sharp. Yeah. Yeah. It's true.

39:57

Although I'd much rather play as Spoke wouldn't you. Yeah,

40:00

but don't say I will never do this. Just keep an open

40:02

mind. Oh that's true.

40:04

Keep an open mind. Keep an open mind, guys. We've

40:06

got more of these transfer pods coming

40:08

up. We might do the best. The

40:11

best or record-breaking or the best

40:13

coming up, eh? Yes. We'll come up with some clever

40:15

things. It's all been planned in advance, honest.

40:18

As you can see. There we go. TSFP presents a history

40:21

of transfers. Next episode

40:23

coming up in a couple of weeks. We'll speak to you then. Ah

40:25

yes. Cheerio. Bye.