0:00

I'm Francis Lam. And this is The Splendid Table from APM it's apples.

0:08

It's, pumpkin's, it's coffees that smell like pie, but I really know what's Fall with a new crop of cookbooks comes out.

0:15

Now you might know that I'm actually also a Cookbook editor for what I think is a pretty good publishing house, but that doesn't mean I get mad when I see everyone else's great work.

0:23

I love Cookbook season seeing all the new ideas and the great designs coming out every week.

0:28

So this episode, we want to get a little bit into some of the leading more specialty books.

0:34

We're especially excited about this fall.

0:35

We're going to start with what I'm pretty sure is.

0:39

A first of its kind book in English to Cookbook and the classics you'll find in a Chinese bakery.

0:44

Now the Chinese bakery is like one of my favorite places on earth.

0:49

And by that, I mean like any bakery pick a Chinese bakery.

0:53

And it's one of my favorite places on earth.

0:54

They are in every Chinatown in the land.

0:57

And you know, they're amazing because they're both a taste of nostalgia for immigrants from Southern China, especially from Hong Kong where their parents are from.

1:05

But they're also where a lot of times you will start to see first, like what's Trinity over there showing up over here and baking.

1:13

I mean, literally, you know, making breads and cakes in an oven, didn't really develop in China until European colonialism landed in Hong Kong and Macau.

1:22

Then they started start to make the classics at custard tarts, sweet breads, but textures that Chinese people especially love they.

1:31

Yeah. They love their Bread soft and fluffy and chewy.

1:34

As I'm super excited to talk with Christina Cho the first Cookbook on this subject in English Mooncakes and Milk Bread.

1:42

Hey Christina, it's great to talk with you.

1:45

Hi, Francis. So excited to be here.

1:48

I'm Supersite first of all, I want to thank you actually for writing this book, because as far as I know, I don't think there is another Cookbook in English on all these awesome Hong Kong, Chinese bakery favorites.

1:59

And honestly, I'm not even sure if there is a Cookbook on it in Chinese.

2:03

Cause like home baking is like really not a thing in Hong Kong.

2:08

So let's start first with the glories of the Chinese bakery for listeners.

2:12

Who've never been in one or, or don't know the way around them.

2:15

Like if you were walking into one right now and not like, you know, talking to me, what would you see?

2:20

And like, what's the first thing you would look for To

2:24

start? I would say that as you're approaching a Chinese bakery, you're probably going to hear or even smell it first.

2:30

I just have so many vivid memories of going to, or visiting different Chinatowns with my family.

2:36

And just the approach like you hear, most times you hear like Cantonese shatter, like kind of dancing out of the bakeries from like aunties and uncles doing their like morning tea, chaps and gossips and stuff.

2:48

And then you start to get hit with the WAFs of like buttery Bread, the black milk tea that's brewing in the back somewhere.

2:57

And so there's all these kinds of sensory memories that I have.

3:01

And then you walk in and most of the time you see these glorious glass or acrylic cases filled with different buns and cakes.

3:10

And as a kid, that just felt really magical to me.

3:15

And I also, Yeah,

3:17

So much, you know, like so many options and thankfully my parents gave me the independence of like, you can pick whatever you want.

3:25

And that was just the greatest thing.

3:28

And normally I personally made a beeline to find some type of hot dog wrapped in Bread.

3:36

Yeah. That was like the best for me.

3:37

So that was my experience as a kid.

3:40

I don't know if that was the same for you.

3:42

Okay. Here's a question. You're you're you're speaking from your memory, right?

3:45

Like walking in with like 75 cents, right?

3:48

Like three quarters in your pocket to go look for like the hot dog bun as an adult.

3:51

Do you go for the same thing?

3:53

Is that the still the first thing you can escalate?

3:57

I think like a lot of, you know, your, your childhood foundations like stay with you into your adulthood.

4:03

So still, and I of course still visit Chinese bakeries pretty frequently in San Francisco.

4:09

I used to live by like a really great one.

4:12

And on Sunday farmer's markets, that bakery was on the way there.

4:16

And so I would always stop by pick up a bunch of buns, always got a hot dog bun.

4:20

I just can't not do it, but I still allow myself the freedom, you know, to explore and try different bakery offerings because there's just, it's it's limitless.

4:31

Yeah. My thing is I always go for the egg tarts.

4:33

I always see their cards first to see if they're good ones.

4:35

Yes, of course. The other thing I would look for is like anything squishy, like all these like squishy breads, squishy buns, sweet squishy buns to me is like, that's what these bakers are.

4:48

That's such a good adjective. Cause I feel like in another bakery context, a lot of times you're looking for like flaky Chris, you know, but in a Chinese bakery, like something that's squishy or bouncy is ideal, I think.

5:01

Yeah, totally. And like a squishy, slightly sweet bun with a hot dog stuck right through it.

5:07

Is that like sweet salty.

5:08

It's perfect. Could it be lunch?

5:11

Could be a snack. Perfect. Yeah.

5:13

Yeah. So let's talk about some of the other varieties of items you'd find in that glorious acrylic case BOLO

5:20

bow, or a pineapple buns are iconic.

5:22

I feel like pretty much every Chinese bakery should have that.

5:26

And for someone who doesn't know what a pineapple bun is, there's no actual pineapple in it.

5:32

Although I see with a few bakeries, I have like introduced like a jammy pineapple filling inside.

5:37

But typically it is just the Milk Bread base with a cookie, like topping that when you bake it crackles to resemble the crisscross pattern of say a pineapple, so those are super iconic, but then you also find a lot of different cakes too.

5:54

Like you'll see the sponge cakes that are covered in whipped cream.

5:57

And the fruit almost looks fake because it's like perfectly cut into all these different shapes and lacquer with some sugar.

6:04

And occasionally you also find some savory or you actually do find a lot of savory offerings in the buns, but you also might find dumplings in there too.

6:12

Green onion, pancakes.

6:14

Yeah, totally. You know, I love when you said to me the other day that your favorite Chinese bakery item says a lot about you.

6:21

What do you mean by that?

6:25

I think each button is so different and I think the style of the bunch is kind of correlates with different aspects of your personality.

6:33

Like for example, like my favorite, I say the hotdog bun, but I think that's my favorite just out of like pure excitement because I'm like, I'm going to get a hot dog for breakfast, you know, but like deep down my ultimate favorite Chinese bakery bun is a guy bow, which is cocktail buttons.

6:49

And I don't know what that says about me, but I think it means that I love like the pure fundamental ingredients.

6:56

Cause that's such a simple button. It's just like butter, sugar and coconut inside.

7:00

Maybe if your favorite button is the pineapple bun, you're like in some way also purists, but also kind of value like tradition because it's so popular.

7:12

And

7:12

in

7:12

my

7:12

book,

7:12

I

7:12

kinda

7:12

talked

7:12

about

7:12

that

7:12

a

7:12

little

7:12

bit

7:12

with

7:12

my

7:12

tuna

7:12

button

7:12

where

7:12

I

7:12

say

7:12

that

7:12

if

7:12

your

7:12

favorite

7:12

is

7:12

the

7:12

tuna

7:12

bun,

7:12

I

7:12

think

7:12

you're

7:12

a

7:12

risk

7:12

taker

7:12

and

7:12

you're

7:12

a

7:12

risk

7:25

taker. Like I love the tuna buns.

7:27

You don't know how long they're sitting there for, but you're, you're okay with it anyway.

7:30

And you want more of a robust meal when you, when you eat carbs, you know?

7:35

So I think everyone has a personality trait associated with it somehow.

7:39

Oh My God. That's so funny.

7:41

I could Probably talk about it for a long time.

7:44

We're mostly stuffed blends. What we're talking about, like the hot dog bun is actually literally a bond with a hot dog stuffed in it.

7:50

And Latrina bond is literally a bun with tuna stuffed in it.

7:52

The exception being the pineapple bowl, which is the most iconic one.

7:55

I got it. Yeah. But my wife's favorite is that same squishy white soft kind of sweet Milk Bread bond.

8:02

But like in the middle of it, there's like a little bit of mayonnaise and corn like corn kernels.

8:08

And sometimes you see it with chopped up hand too, but she likes just like the corn and mayonnaise.

8:12

What does that say about her? I think she lives life to the fullest.

8:15

They

8:15

should

8:18

Really go the whole story.

8:22

That's a good bun too though. I, I do know exactly that one.

8:25

There's something about that. Mayo and pops corn together.

8:28

It feels like a summer barbecue side.

8:32

No. Yeah. So, okay.

8:34

So given that there are no other cookbooks on this subject, how'd you learn to make these things?

8:39

So The

8:41

concept for a lot of the recipes were kind of like already in existence.

8:44

Like I wanted to represent as many of the super popular buns and cookies and cakes that you're fine at Chinese bakeries, but I still took own liberties because I think a fundamental part of Chinese bakeries is that they do offer very similar things, but you'll always find something that kind of like surprises you, or it might be like super associated with the location.

9:06

Like a lot of bakeries in California, I feel like to experiment with different vegetables or like they kind of push the newest trendy, like flavor, like when macho was like really popular long time ago or a different tea flavors.

9:19

And so I wanted to represent that aspect, but the technical part of learning how to bake all these things, I've been teaching myself how to bake since I was in middle school.

9:29

And I, I wish I had this book.

9:31

Cause at that time I had no reference of recipes that kind of represented the things that my family ate.

9:38

So for a long time, I was just kind of teaching myself how to bake cakes and breads and cookies for some of the more savory components, like a chaucey bow filling.

9:49

I grew up in a Chinese restaurant family.

9:52

And so I watched my, my grandpa like roast you in the kitchen or make stir fries, dumpling, fillings, and all that stuff.

10:00

And so that has a very strong kind of like family connection.

10:03

But otherwise it's a mix of all that stuff.

10:05

It's like research, taking things from my past and just testing and testing until I get something that I'm happy with Gun

10:12

and testing, Tasi recipes must have been really hard.

10:14

It's like, oh God, it makes sweet barbecue pork again.

10:16

Oh God terrible.

10:17

Yeah, exactly.

10:19

So this is an awful question and I hate asking it, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

10:23

Do you have a favorite recipe in the book since so many of these recipes are nostalgic and others are like creative, is there one that you're like, yeah, I love that one.

10:33

Ah, that's so hard to decide, but I think I'm going to have to go with my almond cookies.

10:39

And I, if, if I had to pick one, that's probably like my favorite recipe out of the entire book, because the recipe is so personal to me and the headnote is like an entire page because I just wrote about my grandpa in there and they are also one of the easiest recipes in the book.

10:56

I tested it probably the most too. So it's ironic that the easiest recipe in the book, I tested it more than anything, but I just wanted to make sure it was really perfect.

11:03

So

11:03

it

11:03

has

11:03

a

11:03

high

11:03

ratio

11:03

of

11:03

butter

11:03

to

11:03

flour

11:03

because

11:03

I

11:03

wanted

11:03

the

11:03

cookie

11:03

to

11:03

be

11:03

kind

11:03

of

11:03

like

11:03

thin

11:03

crispy

11:03

edges

11:03

with

11:03

a

11:03

soft

11:03

chewy

11:14

center. So you are creaming butter and sugar together.

11:17

You add some egg to lend some chewiness, you add some flour almond extract.

11:22

It's like so minimal.

11:24

And then you chill the dough for a little bit so that it can kind of firm up, but it doesn't require like a 24 hour chill or anything like that.

11:31

Like just 30 to 40 minutes in the fridge.

11:33

You roll them up into balls and you brush a little bit of egg yolk on the top.

11:39

Thank you for that yellow. Yeah. The, the egg yolk I think is a very kind of classic approach to a lot of Chinese bakery, cookies and cakes.

11:46

Cause it gives it a really nice yellow color and a lacquered shine, but it also acts as like an adhesive for it, a little sliver of almond on the very top to signify what it is.

11:57

And then you bake it up and they melt like pretty drastically.

12:00

Like they spread out really nice and thin, which is different than what I would consider.

12:05

Like the platonic ideal of a Chinese bakery, almond cookie.

12:09

A lot of times they're kind of thicker, crispy, a little crunchy, but I think that's why my grandpa's almond cookies were very popular in my family and with all the other like aunties and uncles in the neighborhood, because they're just like so different.

12:20

Like maybe cause they taste a little bit more American and it was like, it was just different from what they're used to, but it's one of the few baking memories in my family.

12:30

So it's very cherished for me.

12:32

And it's very cool for me to think of other families making this cookie.

12:37

Yeah. I love it.

12:39

It was so fun talking with you.

12:41

Thanks so much for coming. I'm So

12:43

glad to talk to you too.

12:45

Thank you, Christina.

12:48

Cho is the author of Mooncakes and Milk Bread, sweet and savory recipes inspired by Chinese bakeries.

12:54

You can find that recipe for her.

12:56

Grandfather's Alban cookies at Splendid Table dot org coming up the newest food Adventurer's guide, gastro Obscura, I Francis Lam.

13:05

And this is The Splendid Table from APM.

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part

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your

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30

15:13

I'm Francis Lam. And this is the show for curious, cooks and eaters.

15:15

We're talking about some of our favorite food books for the fall this week.

15:19

Next one, isn't it Cookbook at all.

15:22

And just to get even a little further away from the point it comes from Atlas Obscura, a website that features headlines like sweet skunks that do six stunts and the dark art of displaying deep sea fish.

15:34

It's actually a travel website that features destinations and like cultural attractions for the truly curious.

15:43

And a few years ago, they launched a food spinoff called Gastro Obscura.

15:46

They do the most incredible job in finding the most fascinating, hidden food stories.

15:51

And now they have a guide book to eating the world their way also called Gastro Obscura.

15:57

Dylan thermos is one of the authors he's here with us now.

16:01

Hey Dylan.

16:03

Hey Francis. Thanks for having me on I'm. I'm super excited.

16:06

I'm pumped, man. I am such a fan about the subs Geera and Gastro Obscura.

16:10

So Alice Obscura for listeners who don't know like covers all these amazing sometimes like secret places around the world.

16:19

Like I was just on the site and I was reading about this museum in Philadelphia that has Albert Einstein's brain in it, which I like Peter Museum.

16:26

Yeah, I

16:29

guess I would've never thought about like where did Albert Einstein's brain go?

16:32

Did it not go with him? No, it's in a museum of Philadelphia and you can learn all about it.

16:36

And that was obscure.

16:36

And

16:36

you've

16:36

covered

16:36

literally

16:36

tens

16:36

of

16:36

thousands

16:36

of

16:36

these

16:36

places

16:36

around

16:36

the

16:42

world. And a few years ago you started Gastro Obscura, which is like the food version.

16:46

And you know, we're talking mostly to cookbook authors on this episode, but I've really wanted to bring this book on because it is just such a cool compendium of hundreds, maybe thousands, Hundreds,

17:00

hundreds, five, 600 ish in that range.

17:02

Yeah. Fascinating

17:03

local foods all over the world.

17:06

Like a lot of them, the things that you might only know about if you grew up in this place or some, even if you grew up in this place, you might not even know about, you have to really be in the know.

17:13

So here's a question.

17:15

Let me turn it to you then if like the whole purpose of the enterprise is like fine, what's fascinating.

17:19

That's close at hand. Like what do you grow up with that could have qualified to be in this book?

17:26

That's a great question. It's funny. I came prepared with a similar like local question for you too first.

17:30

I'll ask you. Okay. So you're from New Jersey.

17:32

Quick, really easy question to answer.

17:34

Do you call it a pork roll or tailor's ham?

17:37

Oh, it's Taylor ham, but it's Taylor ham, but I will totally accept Taylor puerperal ultimately.

17:44

And for people that don't know, this is one of new, Jersey's great gifts of the world.

17:48

It's probably meaningful. You've never heard of it because New Jersey has great gifts to the world.

17:51

I usually things you've never heard of, but, but it's basically like a, I don't.

17:55

How would you describe it? It's sort of like a Spam

17:58

family, family Of

18:01

things. It's a, it's a, it's a salty sliceable pork product that you fry up.

18:06

Hey, you know what it's like? It's like a saltier, less smooth, less creamy baloney.

18:11

And that we would like fry up for like breakfast sandwiches Invented

18:16

by a, a New Jersey Senator.

18:18

No less prestigious prestigious.

18:21

Yeah. That's that's the tailor and the Hammond. They had to change it from the name.

18:26

Taylor's the reason it has these two names is because there was a ruling in like early 19 hundreds.

18:30

You can't call it a ham.

18:32

So they had to change it.

18:35

No. So I'm, I'm from the Midwest. I grew up in Minnesota and my family's roots are very Scandinavian, super, super Norwegian.

18:43

So I grew up eating a lot of like pickled herring, which I love things like left's a super thin kind of pancake or crepe Chrome cacao, which is like these little crunchy cookie rolls.

18:56

They're so good. And then, and, and then like really kind of standard Minnesota summer activity was going to the state fair.

19:06

And so pretty much every year we'd go to the Minnesota state fair, which has its own kind of culinary world of insanity and bizarre.

19:13

It's literally everything on a stick. It's a true, but, but one of the, one of the things we always went to see and we put it in the book was the carving of the princess Kay of the Milky way.

19:24

So basically what it is, is in the middle of the state fair, which is usually blazing hot.

19:27

There's this air conditioned glass room where a young woman who works in the dairy industry and weirdly also has to be unwed.

19:36

And under the age of 24, which is like extremely specific, it's slightly, slightly medieval seeming.

19:41

Anyway, she sits there and gets her likeness carved out of a 90 pound block of butter.

19:46

And it's a different woman each day for the 12 days.

19:48

Eventually they crown one princess Kay of the Milky way.

19:51

And this is a tradition that's been going back.

19:53

It goes back decades, centuries, really at least the butter carving tradition like this.

19:59

And, and each year the women who get their faces carved and butter, they get to take home their 90 pound block of butter.

20:05

And then some of them basically get to carve their own head and use it on like a big pancake party, which is like carving your own head out of butter.

20:13

It feels like a real, it's a new, personal life goal of mine, But

20:17

that are there like years of therapy later, you're like, oh God, I cannot see that.

20:23

And like I knew obviously about that traditional butter, I got to learn a little bit about the, this woman from the 18 hundreds who sort of became like the butter star.

20:30

She would like carved butter in front of 2000 people.

20:34

But I also learned about the fact that like Tibetan monks have this totally different parallel butter or carving tradition where they carved a yak butter into these really beautiful, like immaculate diorama's displays and they die the butter too.

20:50

They add different kinds of mineral coloring so that these really colorful displays and they combine flour to make them more permanent.

20:57

And then at the end, just like a lot of other kind of Buddhist traditions, they just like feed them to the livestock.

21:01

But I guess that's how it ends for all these butter sculptures went away, You

21:05

know, for a Buddhist. That makes perfect sense. So, you know, it's all about like lives and the reliving of lives and the cycling of, of life.

21:10

But actually that is a theme in the book as well.

21:14

Right? Like one thing you, you sort of touched on it a lot, are these monastic food traditions, rituals from all over?

21:22

Totally. It, it was really delightful to kind of see that theme emerge and just to see the kind of particular traditions kept alive in monasteries, within temples around the world.

21:34

And it's not, you know, there's definitely a European heritage, but it cuts across nearly every continent.

21:40

The other thing that I'll say is that at least, especially with the Europeans, they will really get you hammered.

21:48

Like a lot of the European monastery traditions are drinking tradition.

21:51

So there's Lindisfarne island, which is this like beautiful, like magical looking island.

21:59

It's basically castle on a hill where it's like one of these tidal estuaries.

22:02

So you can only get to it during certain times of the day.

22:05

And so this Exactly.

22:08

Yeah. So this was a place where they made this kind of meat that was called like the elixir of the gods.

22:12

And it was a MI that was mixed with grape juice, a particular style of Mead, and then it kind of disappeared and was reinvented in the sixties.

22:19

So they're sort of remaking this monk style made there, but there are other places where the monks are still very much active, like, like chartreuse, which like I love drinking is, is a recipe that dates back basically nearly a thousand years.

22:34

It originally it called for like 180 ingredients.

22:39

And basically in the 17 hundreds, the monks found this like last recipe and we're like, oh man, this is too complicated.

22:48

So they made a slightly different version that is, was 55% alcohol.

22:53

So it it's, it's hard.

22:54

And then they've made, you know, other kind of lighter versions of that green chartreuse and they're still, it's a secret recipe.

23:00

They're the only people who make it, they have this enormous operation.

23:04

It's, it's really like a thing out of time.

23:08

So I loved, I loved learning about all of those traditions.

23:11

That's super interesting. You know, it's funny because I'm also a book editor and I'm working on a Cookbook right now that is about like traditional Chinese vegan cuisine.

23:19

A lot of which was developed in monasteries, Buddhist monasteries that were vegetarian.

23:25

Yeah. And it's actually a really amazing delicious cuisine, you know, with thousands of years of tradition and innovation, you know, behind it, one of the things they would often do was they would make mock meat dishes because the idea was, you know, you don't want to harm the animals.

23:40

Well, it wasn't like there was a distaste for the meat and culturally, like there's a lot of like symbolism that's embedded in certain fishes.

23:46

And so they would create vegetarian versions of dishes.

23:50

And like one of the recipes my author was working on was a vegetarian fish, you know, beautiful vegetables and mushrooms cooked into a sort of filling and then wrapped in seaweed in the shape of a fish.

24:03

And then that whole thing is deep fried.

24:04

So the seaweed is almost like crispy fish skin.

24:08

That's awesome. And yeah, it's a super amazing dish, but it was just that idea too, of like, this is where these, you know, maybe like in the monastery, there's not a whole lot of other things you gotta do.

24:19

So like you got time to like practice your craft.

24:21

So it becomes this really amazing space around the world for like culinary innovation.

24:28

Totally. So let me ask you, what are some of your other favorite things in the book?

24:33

Like what's another thing that like you're dying to go.

24:37

This is like such a hard question to answer.

24:39

There's like so many different things. One, one thing I, I, I was really interested to learn about was sort of north Korean beer brewing.

24:47

And basically there, there wasn't much there up until basically the early two thousands when they got pretty serious about sort of becoming good brewers as like, as like a state organization.

24:59

And they went to this town trail bridge in the UK and they literally just took an entire brewery like brick by brick.

25:08

They disassembled this, you know, hundred plus year old brewery and sent every screw, every VAT, every toilet seat back, they like, they like kind of tried to take the brewer.

25:20

They were like, we need this guy, but, you know, and they re they recreated this enormous UK brewery within like 18 months and, and brew pretty good beers from everything that I was able to find out.

25:32

I haven't been able to taste them for sort of obvious reasons, but you know, they also have developed a style of beer, which is a steam beer.

25:40

There was an American sort of version of this in the gold miner era.

25:43

And it was made at higher temperatures cause you didn't have refrigeration.

25:46

And because North Korea has really unreliable electricity grids, it basically recreated this sort of lost or very old style of beer called steam beer.

25:55

Anyway, I also liked learning about dishes that like I thought I knew like, you know, we have an entry on pad Thai in the book and you might be like, well, that is like the farthest thing from Obscura, but the history behind it, the way it came to be as basically the mandate of the then prime minister as sort of part of a nationalism project, he basically issued a bunch of mandates, which said, we're going to call the country Thailand.

26:22

There's sort of a no shirt, no shoes, no service mandate that basically said, you all kind of have to dress within these parameters.

26:28

And it was like fairly oppressive in many, many ways.

26:31

But one of the things that he did was basically said, we have this new dish, it's called pad Thai.

26:35

Ironically, it's made out of Chinese noodles, but they are pretty cheap.

26:38

They're pretty filling. And this is what we're all going to eat.

26:42

And weirdly like it's succeeded.

26:43

Like it actually became a beloved dish in Thailand.

26:47

It's still kind of, you know, people consider it the national dish there and now, you know, everyone around the world has had pad Thai.

26:53

So I just think that's an example of a history where the dish is very famous, but the, the story behind it is maybe less known.

27:00

Yeah. And it goes perfectly into your idea of like, oh, I thought it was just take a little bit right around you and just fascinating things about, yeah.

27:08

Thank you so much to him. It's been such a blast talking about, I

27:12

could go on for, so I could go so long. We don't have enough time.

27:14

This has been super fun.

27:15

Thanks

27:15

for

27:19

us. This is great talking to you.

27:23

Dylan theorists is co-author with Cecily Wong of Gastro Obscura, a food Adventurer's guide.

27:28

When

27:28

I

27:28

think

27:28

back

27:28

to

27:28

my

27:28

first

27:28

few

27:28

years,

27:28

living

27:28

in

27:28

New

27:28

York,

27:28

I

27:28

totally

27:28

remember

27:28

going

27:28

to

27:28

friend's

27:28

houses

27:28

and

27:28

like

27:28

all

27:28

the

27:28

time

27:28

they

27:28

would

27:28

have

27:28

these

27:28

delicious

27:28

olives

27:28

or

27:28

spice

27:28

nuts

27:28

or

27:28

sweets

27:28

or

27:45

whatever. And it was almost like every time I go, wow, these are so good.

27:48

Where did you get them? It's a hotties.

27:50

It's a hotties it's hotties.

27:52

So how do you sell hotties? So finally, one day I got myself to the hotties and honestly it was a little overwhelming because I walked in the store and there were just so many things like so many delicious looking and smelling things.

28:05

And at the time I had no idea what a lot of them were.

28:09

Well, this legendary store has been an anchor of the middle Eastern communities in New York for over a hundred years.

28:16

And I was certainly not the first customer who's ever walked in and got lost.

28:20

So a hundred years later, they wrote a cookbook called Flavors of the Sun, which is a great book because it really does feel like it's written by a grocer.

28:29

You know, here are these ingredients.

28:31

Here's why you're going to love them.

28:33

Here's what to do with them. The author and fourth generation owner of is Christine Hottie, Waylon.

28:40

Hey Christine, I am so excited to talk with you.

28:44

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

28:46

You are.

28:47

I mean, you probably don't know this, but I live not very far walk from the hotties, the store on Atlantic avenue.

28:54

I see the icon.

28:55

So I feel like I'm talking to royalty right now.

28:58

I mean, for those who don't know the stores to hotties, it is absolutely an iconic store in New York city.

29:05

One of the oldest stores importing middle Eastern ingredients in the country.

29:10

And it's just, I don't know.

29:13

It just feels like when you walk into it, doesn't feel like a store.

29:15

It feels like it's its own universe.

29:18

Actually. Maybe let's start there, Christine. I mean, you, this store has been in your family for now.

29:22

Four generations. Describe to us who though, you know, who haven't had the pleasure of being there.

29:27

What do you see when you walk in?

29:29

What does it feel like? What do you want customers to, to see and feel when they walk into your store?

29:35

I think Really

29:37

We, we come from a background of hospitality and we middly snow tend to be, you know, they want to share their food and that's, I think what we want people to feel when they walk in the door, we want you to smell the spices and we want you to see it's like a bizarre there's stuff everywhere.

29:52

There's, there's jars filled with nuts and fruits and candies and there's there's there's racks and racks of beans.

29:59

And there's racks of hand pack spices.

30:01

We want your tenses to be really in tune to between the, the, just the busy-ness of the store and the, and the smells that come from every area, whether it's the kitchen cooking something, or is that the bread being made or the spices, because we pack all our spices analysis in-house so you can smell them all through the air.

30:19

You know, we, we want you to, we want you to walk in and be hungry.

30:21

We want you to walk in and see the possibilities in terms of what you could make for dinner.

30:25

We don't want to be an antiseptic environment where, you know, you just walk in and you pick up a package of something and you leave.

30:30

We want you to ask questions and talk to our staff.

30:32

I mean, a lot of our team has been with us a really long time and most of them cook.

30:35

So we want it. We want to share the experience.

30:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that you described it as almost like a bizarre and the neighborhood it's in, it's on Atlantic avenue, right at the edge of Brooklyn Heights, which is like one of the most historic oldest parts of Brooklyn.

30:51

It's kind of like old money, Brooklyn, and there's this whole strip of era restaurants, stores it's been there for decades.

31:01

Tell us about this community.

31:03

And so Hardee's role in it.

31:06

Sure. So originally when my great, great uncle came, he settled in what part of little Syria it's where over the area where the Brooklyn battery tunnel is in Manhattan.

31:13

When the tunnel was being constructed, it was a lot of middle Eastern stories there.

31:17

When the tunnel was being constructed, even though it didn't displace them, it caused literally a shaking up of the neighborhood as they were digging.

31:22

And it wasn't a very pleasant environment for the customers.

31:26

So my grandfather was on that street with his shop and he decided he bought the building in 1946.

31:31

And we moved in 1948 to the place that we currently are at Atlantic avenue.

31:36

I'm one of the reasons he chose that area is because like most immigrants, he wanted to be where he was comfortable and arch thedral was right there.

31:44

And the store, the history of the store, it was actually one of the first importers of a lot of the ingredients that now, like, you know, you taking in and things like that, that you, you can find commonplace, but at one point like you could, oh, there was only one place to get that.

31:58

Absolutely. We've been importing our own stuff for years. We've been dealing with a lot of the same farmers and a lot of the same producers for generations, literally generations.

32:05

I mean, places, especially when Middle-Eastern food was much harder to get you've developed partnerships and we still buy from a lot of those same partners.

32:13

Over the years, we are very proud of the fact that we are a family, a fourth generation family business.

32:19

So we really try, we're very loyal customers of our suppliers.

32:22

And I think that that's helped us through periods where it was difficult to get things it's helped us when we opened our new store.

32:28

It's it's it's part and parcel of being such a long, long established business.

32:33

And you know, the whole family and extended family is proud of it because it's unusual in this day and age to a business that's still growing and yet still owned by the original family.

32:43

Right. That's great.

32:44

We'll be back with more middle Eastern flavors with Christine is a Hottie Waylon.

32:49

And then it's Fermentation master of Sandra Katz with his new book, Fermentation Journeys.

32:54

I'm Francis Lam. And this is The Splendid Table from APM.

33:01

How do we talk about climate change?

33:02

Sometimes it feels untouchable.

33:04

And if you're anything like me, all the doomsday numbers can leave you feeling numb and hopeless.

33:10

So we decided to take a different approach from wonder media network, I'm Grace Lynch.

33:17

And this is as she rises a new podcast, personalizing the elusive magnitude of climate change each week.

33:24

We're connecting the power of poetry with the work of local activists to create an intimate portrait of climate change.

33:31

Listen and follow. As she rises on apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

33:41

Poetry has the power to connect our inner universe and the outer world in just one turn of phrase, poetry can anchor us or shift a moment a day, even a whole life.

33:54

Join me eight Alamone on the slow down for a poem and a moment of reflection in one short episode, every weekday, listen to the slowdown, wherever you get your podcasts.

34:13

I'm Francis Lam. And this is the show for curious, cooks and eaters.

34:16

We're talking great fall cookbooks this week, and we're at need chat with Christine Brooklyn royalty, fourth generation owner of the iconic middle Eastern grocery store.

34:27

So hotties and the author of the new book, Flavors of the Sun.

34:31

Let's get back to Christine.

34:32

This let's turn to this book.

34:34

There's this like little passage in it.

34:37

This is great image of your grandfather, who you said when he was young and just getting into the business with his uncle used to invite customers to sit down and have a coffee and have a smoke with him before he would sell them anything.

34:51

So

34:51

like,

34:51

you

34:51

probably

34:51

can't

34:51

do

34:51

that

34:51

anymore,

34:51

but

34:51

when

34:51

a

34:51

customer

34:51

comes

34:51

in

34:51

or

34:51

you

34:51

find

34:51

yourself

34:51

talking

34:51

to

34:51

people,

34:51

what

34:51

are

34:51

some

34:51

of

34:51

the

34:51

things,

34:51

what

34:51

are

34:51

your,

34:51

what

34:51

are

34:51

your,

34:51

some

34:51

of

34:51

your

34:51

favorite

34:51

things

34:51

to

34:51

show

34:51

customers

34:51

when

34:51

you

34:51

talk

34:51

with

35:04

them? Like maybe you've never had this before, but check this out.

35:08

Probably let's see. I mean, certainly Zaza, which is becoming a much more commonplace item in today's diet.

35:12

I mean, like you see it in local supermarkets today, but that spice is very much a part of least of my background.

35:19

I mean, we use it in a ton of ways.

35:21

We mix it into Lebanon. We use it in, in yogurt.

35:24

We make Zaza Bread. Of course, out of it, we make dips.

35:27

And I feel like it's an underused, seasoning people buy it because they see it in one thing.

35:31

And then they like, well, what, I don't know what to do with the rest of it.

35:33

Whereas we use it more like in everything spice, like, like the spice or whatever, we put it in everything.

35:38

We just sprinkle it on salads. I mean, it's like an all-purpose seasoning, you put it on chicken, roast chickens and stuff.

35:43

And I think people don't think to use it that way.

35:45

What's In yours.

35:47

So we do Lebanese, it's toasted Sesame seeds, sumac for sour, and it is the zap, the spice itself, and then Seesaw.

35:55

Okay. And is that, that itself is like a, it's like a, almost like an like earth bright, a wild earth Here.

36:00

I see it marketed as hot and spicy going to like when I grow it in my yard, if I don't use middle Eastern seeds, if I use American, but there, it looks more like time.

36:08

It's a long, I mean, it goes wild all over the roads.

36:10

It's like a longer leaf. It's got a similar flavor to a combination of oregano and time, but it definitely looks more like time.

36:18

Yeah. Pomegranate molasses.

36:19

Now I like this stuff making a mistake, but I'm that classic person who like bought it for a recipe.

36:25

It's literally been sitting in.

36:27

My it's been sitting here in my, in my pantry.

36:30

What am I going to do with it? It's

36:32

really good in cocktails. I mean, you could do a great pomegranate mimosa with fresh pomegranate seeds.

36:37

We use it in our, in our cafe.

36:39

We use it in our sangria or pomegranate sangria.

36:41

It's really good on a butter cake where you can just, you know, poke the top and drizzle it in.

36:46

It makes really pretty, you know, streaks in the cake.

36:49

People mostly in the middle east, use it in savory applications.

36:53

So I can use it on a roast chicken today.

36:55

I put it in a butternut squash and li roasted soup.

36:58

I drizzled it over before I roasted the vegetables, but you can use it in salad, certainly any place where you want to tart, but slightly fruity flavor.

37:07

So we use it in, in a lot of salads.

37:10

It makes a great dressing.

37:12

It's it blends really, really well with balsamic.

37:14

So if you want to add, I feel like winter salads benefit from having a little bit of a heavier dressing.

37:21

So there you're going to get like this fruity flavor.

37:23

So you can always start a salad with toasted walnuts and pomegranate seeds and, you know, make some kind of goat cheese or fat out, which is another one of my fan favorites.

37:32

I mean, I use it to glaze a baby lamb chops around the holidays, which is, which are really Good

37:38

when it's cooked. Just kinda, I just Plays

37:40

it on if I do it on the grill or in a grill pan, as I'm flipping it, I'll glaze the other side, it makes the meat shiny.

37:45

And the tartness cuts a little bit of the richness of the lamb chop.

37:48

And it looks really festive for holiday.

37:50

You know, if you're doing it for like a holiday meal, it's another great use, Right

37:54

on. Let me get one more out of ya harissa.

37:57

Now I, I enjoy HERSA also.

38:00

It's, you know, sort of a spice chili paste in the book.

38:05

You, you make a distinction between harissa spices versus like harissa liquid.

38:12

Yeah. Tell us about those two and how you'd like to use them.

38:14

I love her in case you can tell it we've used it a lot 10 things in the book.

38:17

We make our own where his spices at the store.

38:20

So we buy all of our chilies separate.

38:22

We toast them all separately in the oven, including the whole spices.

38:25

And then we grind it in a food processor type machine.

38:27

We do that because we wanted a very specific flavor profile and I didn't want it to just to be Chile.

38:33

I mean, the whole point of her research is that it does have a lot of other, it's got seeds in it.

38:37

It's got, you know, cumin seeds and caraway seeds and coriander seeds.

38:41

And you want all of those flavors to be well blended.

38:44

So, but we still want it to be chunky because otherwise it just looks like a ground chili and it's texture is important as well as flavor.

38:52

And we use it on everything.

38:54

I mean, it's is in the slowest salmon, that's in the book, that's a mainstay in our deli.

38:59

We sell hundreds of pounds per week, but I do also think that the Harvista liquid has it a ton of uses that people don't think of.

39:08

You can get ones that are super, super hot.

39:10

Ours is not. So you can use it as a Table sauce, as well as an marinade.

39:14

We really wanted the customer and our guests to taste.

39:17

Once again, the textural and the, the different flavor profiles, we often will use them together.

39:22

Like I'll often marinate something with the wet spices and then sprinkle with the dry or vice versa.

39:27

I might marinate them with the dry, with a little bit of olive oil and then squirt a little bit of liquid on top.

39:32

But once again, this is the kind of thing you can mix into Hamas.

39:35

If you want your homes to be spicy, you can certainly put it in any type of marinade.

39:39

I mean, you wouldn't necessarily think that a strong spice like that would work well on fish, but it works great on salmon because it's very rich.

39:45

You can use it on any kind of a steak.

39:47

I mean, me, I would, I will spray it on like even baked potato, something like that.

39:50

You know, it goes great on there with a little bit of sour cream.

39:53

It's just, it has a ton of uses, you know, say for yogurts, Middle-Eastern really big on savory yogurts.

39:59

I know that it's not as common here, but we, I never ate sweet yogurt when I was growing up.

40:04

It was not a thing. So, or you can put them in savory yogurt with, with Datto or without, or in for dip, you know, like a vegetable zipper, really good in there.

40:14

And if you let it sit because it's of course the dry spice it's going to bloom.

40:18

So as it's sitting in a dairy or something like that, or in olive Oil

40:22

flavor just gets better And

40:24

better. Exactly. It tastes it's most things with harissa spices tastes good, if not better the next day Love

40:29

it. And the recipe is in the book. Thank you so much for it.

40:32

It's been so fun to talk with You. Thank you. I really appreciate you having me on Christine's.

40:38

The Hottie Wayland's new book is Flavors of the Sun.

40:41

That's a hotties guide to understanding, buying and using middle Eastern ingredients.

40:45

You'll find the recipe for her slow roasted ever salmon, The splitting table.org So if for some reason, sometime in the past 20 years, you have found yourself salting cabbage, putting in a crock and skeptically, letting it sit out for a few days, or if you like nervously put more milk in an oven with the pilot light on hoping to make yogurt and not poison.

41:11

And you ended up loving all the results.

41:14

There's a decent chance.

41:15

You have Sandor Katz, the FAC he's, the author of wild fermentation and the art of Fermentation to classics.

41:22

And he started his Fermentation career actually, while trying to improve his own health while living in a commune in Tennessee.

41:28

And now two decades later, he finds himself, celebrated around the world, teaching classes, inspiring world-class chefs and home for mentors alike.

41:38

And now he has a new book called Fermentation Journeys.

41:42

It's a collection of recipes and ideas that people have taught him or inspired in him during his travels.

41:48

It's fascinating.

41:49

It's full of delicious stuff.

41:51

I'm so happy to get to talk to Sandor Katz.

41:54

Hey,

41:57

Sandor. It's so great to have you.

41:59

Thank you so much for having me on the show.

42:01

I am so excited about this book because to me it almost feels like reading your notebook in the sense that you know, the art of fermentation, you know what, frankly is a classic now almost 10 years old, there's so much detailed knowledge.

42:15

It's a tremendous resource.

42:16

It's a reference.

42:17

And this book feels free.

42:21

Like to me, it almost felt like I was like reading your notebook after you've come home from a trip.

42:24

And you're like, oh, I gotta write this thing down.

42:26

These wonderful people. I met this thing, they taught me and this technique I want to experiment with and try.

42:31

So I want to know, like, what are some of your favorite recipes or techniques that are in this book that like really surprised you, that you really love and you really love showing people.

42:43

Well, first of all, let me tell you that you're absolutely right.

42:46

That these are things that I've encountered that I, that I said, oh, I'm so excited about this.

42:52

I want to share this with people.

42:53

I can assure you, my notebooks are not as well put together as, as, as, as the book is you would have anyone would have trouble understanding them.

43:05

But, you know, I mean, this book is full of lots of things that I'm super excited about, you know, just to pick one thing, that's just like a real surprise transformation, you know, ricotta.

43:18

So, you know, which is something I learned about not in my travels, but from a one-time student, Jeremy who Mansky, who went on to write this book with rich, she about Koji, Koji, alchemy.

43:33

And I learned from them about ricotta miso.

43:37

And, you know, when I tried it, it just, it blew my mind.

43:40

Like, you know, you take some, you know, very plain ricotta cheese, you add some Koji and some salt, you mix them together and pack them into a jar and then leave them in the back of your refrigerator for a couple of months.

43:54

And then what you end up with is a paste that tastes just like Parmesan cheese.

43:58

I mean, it's, it's an incredible unlikely transformation that's.

44:05

And so for folks to know, Koji is an inoculated rice, right?

44:10

If it looks like rice when you buy it, but it's been inoculated with spores of a, of a beneficial mold and that's you just stir it with salt and the ricotta and let it hang out.

44:21

And that's it. Yeah. I mean, Koji is an amazing transformative substance.

44:26

I mean, you know, Koji is what turns, you know, soybeans into soy sauce.

44:31

And it's an important part of what turns rice into socket.

44:35

And, you know, it just has this incredible, the fungus that grows Aspirgillus or Isaih, which you can grow on rice or soybeans or barley, or it turns out a multitude of different substrates, but it produces all of these enzymes that can break down carbohydrates, break down proteins, break down fats, you know, and it really just results in, you know, extraordinary umami flavors.

45:02

Yeah. And even just by itself with salt and little water becomes a thing called SHEEO Koji, right.

45:08

Which is an amazing seasoning. It just sort of, it's sort of sweet, it's umami.

45:11

You can marinate things in it.

45:13

It's really awesome. Right.

45:15

And it's power for a marinade is that these enzymes are still active.

45:20

And so, you know, if you marinate your, you know, your fish or your pork chop or your cauliflower in it, you know, those, those enzymes will be, you know, breaking down proteins, breaking down carbohydrates and really building up the flavor that we experienced when we eat them Super.

45:39

And I was also really excited to see like elements or recipes in this book that even for someone who is completely new to fermenting foods at home, there are things that are just, it's not even like, oh, you have to like, you know, find your Koji.

45:56

And I'm thinking of the foreign NATA, which is a traditionally, a chickpea pancake from Italy there, you know, there are lots of versions of it, like all over the Mediterranean different names, but tell us about the way you make foreign oughta.

46:15

Well, sure. And let me just say, because, you know, we, we, we did go off on this tangent about Koji.

46:19

I mean, Koji is wonderful, but you know, the vast majority of Fermentation processes are extremely, extremely simple and straightforward.

46:29

And, you know, Farinata would be a great example of that because all you're doing is you're taking some chick, pea flour, mixing it with water, but then instead of making the Farinata cake right away, you, you give it a one or two or three days, depending on the temperature.

46:48

You whisk it every day until it starts becoming frothy with lots of little bubbles.

46:54

And then if you make your 40 knots a cake, it just becomes so light and fluffy and the Fermentation lifts.

47:02

It just like it does with a loaf of bread.

47:05

But all you've done is soaked the chick, pea flour in water for a few days and with any kind of a dry food.

47:12

And he kind of, you know, being or grain or nut or seed, you know, it's full of microorganisms, just like a fresh vegetable or fruit would be, but they're dormant because it's dry.

47:24

And the first step is simply to add water and, you know, a huge of ferments in the world.

47:30

And in my new book, you know, really involve the utter simplicity of soaking something in water to initiate the Fermentation.

47:41

I love that. That's so good. And just to be clear, so that's not typically how, like far enough does made, like typically you make it by mixing the chickpea flour and water.

47:51

You let it hydrate maybe for a couple hours, but basically that's your batter and, and your spin on it was, I want you to let it hang out for a bit first.

48:00

Exactly, exactly. I mean, most of the recipes emphasize letting it soak for an hour for four hours for eight hours so that the water can fully absorb into the chickpea flour.

48:13

And, you know, anytime I see a recipe that encourages people to let it sit for some hours, you know, what I think is, well, what happens if you let it sit for some days?

48:22

And what made, what made me decide to start experimenting with this is so many people asked me the question, you know, Asia is so full of fermentations of beans outside of Asia, you know, like, are there traditions of fermenting beans?

48:40

And, and, you know, I haven't really been able to come up with many, but just through experimentation, you know, I have found that, you know, Fermentation can make things made from beans even better, even lighter, even more delicious.

48:55

And so this is true of Farinata.

48:57

And then another, a recipe that I have in there is for which is an Afro-Brazilian fried sort of fritter batter, black eyed peas, and same thing.

49:07

If you ferment it for a day or two first, it just gets lighter and more delicious.

49:12

And you know, this is what Fermentation does.

49:16

I love it. This is so cool. Let me ask you about one more thing, because I was so intrigued by it.

49:20

My daughter loves oatmeal.

49:23

She eats oatmeal almost every morning.

49:24

I am amazed by it because, you know, it's one of the more nutritious things you could want.

49:30

I'm so happy.

49:32

She wants that instead of like, you know, frozen waffles or whatever, but folks are really into overnight oats and I've never really developed a taste for that, but you have, I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right.

49:43

Kiesel in this book where you soak oats in water, not overnight, but perhaps for several days, as you say, and it totally transforms them.

49:55

Tell us about that. Yeah. So it's kiss seal.

49:57

And this, this, this is a, a name of this food from Belarus, which is where my maternal grandparents came from.

50:06

And, you know, the idea of fermenting grains before we make a porridge for them.

50:12

It's a universal idea, you know, until baby food came along, that was the weaning food that, that people used.

50:20

And it's a great food, particularly for young children and elderly people.

50:25

But, you know, it's so easily that it's great for anybody.

50:28

But anyway, I thought this Cassiel was especially relevant, given the, you know, the trend for Oak milk, because what you do is you, you soak the roll dotes or you couldn't use other forms of votes, but you soak the oats in water for several days, let's say three or four days, and then you strain it out.

50:48

And that water is thick and starchy and Odie and a little bit fermented.

50:52

And it mean to me, it just tastes like the most wonderful oat milk.

50:57

And then you take the oats themselves and you cover them with fresh water and you cook that into just the creamiest porridge I've ever had.

51:07

You know, this is how simple Fermentation can be.

51:11

And at one point in, in Belarus and elsewhere in, in Eastern Europe foods, like Cassiel were very widely consumed, but an ethnobotanist who I met at the university of gastronomy in Italy sent me a bunch of his papers and they identified this kiss seal and related foods elsewhere in Eastern Europe, as you know, one of the primary traditional foods in danger of extinction.

51:38

And, you know, as someone who like your daughter loves oats, you know, I want to be part of a reviving, this kind of tradition.

51:47

Yeah. Well, thank you for that.

51:49

And thank you for this book and all the exciting ideas in it.

51:52

And again, like just emphasizing like Fermentation is something that can be, that is literally all around us.

51:57

And so it's just about harnessing it in sometimes really simple ways that are so delicious.

52:02

So I'm psyched to cook from this book and thanks for joining us, Sandra.

52:06

Okay, well, it's my pleasure Francis. Thank you so much for having me.

52:09

And I hope that my Fermentation Journeys inspire other people's Absolutely.

52:15

Sandra

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52:15

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52:15

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52:15

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52:23

world. You can find that recipe for Cassiel at Splendid Table dot org, and that is our show for the week.

52:29

There's so many super great cookbooks books coming out this fall.

52:32

And this is just a handful of the ones we love go to a bookstore this month and see what's coming out and please keep bookstores and publishers in business.

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52:52

Thank you for tuning in I'm Francis Lam.

52:54

And this is APM American public media.

52:57

I'm Frances Lam, and this is the Splendid table from APM. It's apples, it's pumpkins, it's coffees that smell like pie. But I really know it's fall with a new crop of cookbooks comes out. Now, you might know that I'm actually also a cookbook editor for, but I think it's a pretty good publishing house. That doesn't mean I get mad when I see everyone else's great work. I season. Seeing all the new ideas and the great designs coming out every week. So this episode, we wanna get little bit into some of the maybe more specialty We're especially excited about this fall. We're gonna start with what I'm pretty sure is a first of its kind book in English. To the classics you'll find in Chinese bakery. Now, the Chinese bakery is like one of my favorite places on earth by that I mean like any bakery, pick a Chinese bakery, and it's one of my favorite places on Earth. They are in every Chinatown in the Sandor, you know, they're amazing because they're both a taste and nostalgia for immigrants from southern China, especially from Hong Kong where their parents are from. But they're also aware lot of times you will start to see first, like, what's trendy over there showing up over here. And baking, I mean, literally, you know, making breads and cakes in an oven didn't really develop in China until European colonialism landed in Hong Kong and Macau. Then, acres start to make the classics, egg custard tarts, sweet breads, but textures that Chinese people especially love. they. Yeah. They love their Bread soft and fluffy and know, they love their bread soft and fluffy and chewy, and so I'm super excited to talk with Christina Cho. The first cookbook on this subject in English mooncakes Sandor notebook. Hey, Christina. It's great to talk with you. Hi, Francis. So excited to be here. I'm super excited. First of all, I wanna thank you actually for writing this book because as far as I know, I don't think there is another cookbook in English on all these awesome Hong Kong Chinese bakery favorites. And awesome life and short, there's a cookbook on it in Chinese because, like, home baking is, like, really not a thing in Hong Kong. Mhmm. So let's start first with the glories of the Chinese bakery for listeners who have never been in one or or don't know the way around them. Like, if you were walking into one right now Sandor not like, you know, talking to me, what would you see Sandor what's the first thing you would look for? To To start, I would say that as you're approaching a Chinese bakery, you're probably gonna hear or even smell it first. Yeah. I just have so many vivid memories of going to or visiting different Chinatowns with my family Sandor just the approach like you hear Most time you hear, like, Cantonese chatter, like, kind of dancing out of the bakeries from, like, aunties and uncles doing their, like, morning tea Katzs and gossip and stuff. And then you start to get hit with the wafts of, like, buttery bread, the black milk tea that's brewing in the back. Somewhere so there's all these kind of sensory memories that I have. And then you walk in Sandor most of the time you see these glorious glass or acrylic cases filled with different buns and cakes. And as a kid, that just felt really magical to me. And I thought dozens of them. Yeah. So much, you know, like so many options. And thankfully my parents gave me the independence of, like, you can pick whatever you want that was just the greatest thing. And normally, I personally made a b line to find some type of hot dog wrapped in bread. Yes. Let's yeah. That was like the best for me. So that that was my experience. That's a kid. I don't know if that was the same for you. Okay. Here's a question. You're you're you're speaking from your memory. Right? Like, walking in with, like, seventy five sense. Right? Like, with three quarters in your pocket, you gotta look for, like, the hotdog bun. As an adult, do you go for the same thing? Absolutely. Is that still the first thing you can okay. Yeah. Absolutely. I think like a lot of, you know, your, your childhood foundations like stay with you into your think, like, a lot of, you know, your your childhood foundations, like, stay with you into your adulthood. So still and I, of course, still visit Chinese bakeries pretty frequently. In San Francisco, I used to live by like a really great one and on Sunday Farmers Katzs. That bakery was on the way there. And so I would always stop by pick up a bunch of buns, always got a hot dog bun. I just can't not do it, but I still allow myself the freedom, you know, to explore and try different bakery offerings because there's just, it's it's I just can't not do it, but I still owe myself the freedom, you know, to explore and try different bakery offerings because there's just it's it's limitless. Yeah. My thing is I always go for the egg tarts. I always see the egg tarts first to see if they're good ones. Yes. Of course. The other thing I would look up for is like anything squishy like, all these, like, squishy breads, squishy buns, sweet squishy buns to me is like -- Right. -- that's what these bakeries are all about. That's such a good adjective. I feel like in another bakery context, a lot of times you're looking for like flaky criss, you know. But in a Chinese bakery, like something that's squishy or bouncy is ideal, I think. Yeah. Totally. And like a squishy, slightly sweet bun -- Mhmm. -- but the hotdog stuck right through it is Katzs, like, sweet salty. Right. It's perfect. Could be lunch. Could be a snack. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about some of the other varieties of items you'd find in that glorious acrylic case. Bollobao or pineapple buns are iconic. I feel like pretty much every Chinese bakery should have that. And for someone who doesn't know what a pineapple bun is, there's no actual pineapple in it. Although, I see a few bakeries I have, like, introduced, like, a jammie, pineapple filling inside. I quit. Typically, it is just the milk bread base. With a cookie like topping that when you bake it crackles to resemble the crisscross pattern of, say, a pineapple. So -- Mhmm. -- those are super iconic. But then you also find a lot of different cakes too. Like, you'll see the sponge cakes that are covered in whipped cream Sandor the fruit almost looks fake because it's like perfectly cut into all these different shapes lacquer with some sugar. And occasionally, you also find some savory or you actually do find a lot of avery offerings in the buns, but you also might find dumplings in there too, green onion pancakes. Yeah. Totally. You know, I love when you said to me the other day. That your favorite Chinese bakery item says a lot about you. What do you mean by that? I think each bun is so different. I think the style of the bud just kind of correlates with different aspects of your personality. Like, for example, like my favorite I I say the hotdog bun, but I think that's my favorite just out of, like, pure excitement because I'm, like, I'm gonna eat a hotdog for breakfast, you know. Yeah. But, like, deep down my ultimate favorite Chinese bakery bun is Guaimebu, which is cocktail buns. I don't know what that says about me, but I think it means that I love, like, the pure fundamental ingredients because that's such a simple bun. It's just like butter, sugar, and coconut inside. Maybe if your favorite bun is the pineapple bun, you're, like, in some way, also purest, but also kind of value like tradition because it's so popular. And in my book, I kinda talked about that a little bit with my tuna bun where I say that if your favorite is the tuna bun, I think you're risk taker. And you're a risk taker. Like, I love the tuna buns. You don't know how long you're sitting there for, but you're you're okay with it anyway. Sandor you want more of a robust meal when you when you eat carbs, you know. So I think everyone has a personality trait associated with it somehow. Oh My god. That's so funny. I could probably talk about it for a long time. So these are mostly stuffed buns that we're talking about. Like, the hotdog bun is actually literally a bun with a hotdog stuffed in it. And the tuna bun is literally a bun with tuna stuffed in it. Mhmm. The exception being the pineapple one, which is the most iconic one I got. Yeah. But my wife's favorite is that same squishy, white, soft kind of sweet milk bread bun. But like in the middle of it, there's like a little bit of mayonnaise. And corn. Like corn kernels? Yes. And sometimes you see it with chopped up hand too, but she likes just like the corn and mayonnaise. What does that say about her? I think she lives life to the fullest. They should Really go the whole go this way. can't even. That's a good bun too, though. I I do know exactly that one. There's something about that mayo and It just, like, pops a corn together. feels like a summer barbecue side. No. I like that. Fun. Yeah. So, okay. So, given that there are, you know, no other cookbooks on this subject, how do you learn to make these things? So the concept for a lot of the recipes were kind of like already in existence. Like, I wanted to represent as many of the super popular buns Sandor cookies and cakes that you find at Chinese bakeries. But I still took my own liberties because I think a fundamental part of Chinese bakeries is that they do offer very similar things, but you'll always find something that kinda like surprises you or might be like super associated with the location, like, a lot of bakeries in California. I feel like to experiment with different vegetables or, like, they kind of push the newest trendy, like, flavor, like, when matcha was like really popular long time ago or different tea flavors. And so I wanted to represent that aspect. But the technical part of learning how to bake all these things, I've been teaching myself how to bake since I was in middle school, and I I wish I had this book. Because at that time, I had no reference of recipes that kind of represented the things that my family ate. Yeah. So for long time, I was just kind of teaching myself how to bake cakes and breads and cookies. Mhmm. For some of the more savory components like a chasu bao filling, I grew up in a Chinese restaurant family, and so I watch my grandpa like roast chasu in the kitchen or make stir fries, dumpling fillings, and all that stuff. And so that has a very strong kind of like family connection. But otherwise, there's a mix of all that stuff. It's like research, taken things from my past Sandor just testing and testing until I get something that I'm happy with. And then testing Tati recipes must really hard. It's like, oh, god. I have to make sweet barbecue porky one. Oh, god. Terrible. Yeah. Exactly. So this is an awful question, and I hate asking it, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Do you have a favorite recipe in the book Sandor so many of these recipes are nostalgic and others are like creative? Is there one that you're like, yeah, I love that one? Katzs so hard to decide. But I think I'm gonna have to go with my gong gong's almond And I if if I had to pick one, that's probably like my favorite recipe recipe out of the entire book because the recipe is so personal to me the head note is like an entire page because I just wrote about my grandpa in there. Mhmm. And They are also one of the easiest recipes in the book. I tested it probably the most too. So it's ironic that the easiest recipe in the book. I tested it more than anything, but just wanted make sure really perfect. How do you make it? So it has a high ratio of butter to flour because I wanted the cookie to be kind of like thin, crispy edges with a soft chewy center. So you are creaming butter and sugar together. You add some egg to get blended some chewiness, you add some flour, almond track. It's like so minimal. And then you chill the dough for a little bit so that I can kind of firm up, but it doesn't require like a twenty hour chill or anything like that, like just thirty to forty minutes in the fridge. You roll them up into balls you brush a little bit of egg yolk on the top. Mhmm. Thank you for that yellow. Yeah. The, the egg yolk I think is a very kind of classic approach to a lot of Chinese bakery, cookies and The the egg yolk, I think, is a very kind of classic approach to lot of Chinese bakery cookies and Katzs. Because it gives it a really nice yellow color and a lacquered shine. Mhmm. But it also acts as like an adhesive for a little sliver of almond on the very top. Signify what it is then you bake it up and they melt like pretty drastically like they spread out really nice and thin which is different than what I would consider, like, the platonic idea of a Chinese bakery almond cookie. A lot of times we're kind of thicker, crispy, little crunchy, but I think that's why my grandpa's almond cookies were very popular in my family with all the other, like, aunties and uncles in the neighborhood because they're just like so different. Like, maybe because they a little bit more American it was like -- Oh. -- it was just different from what they're used to. But it's one of the few baking memories in my family, so it's very cherished for me and it's very cool for me to think of other families making this cookie. Yeah. I love it. It was so fun talking with you. Thanks so much coming. Oh, I'm so glad to talk to you too. Thank you. Christina Cho is the author of moon cakes and milk bread, sweet and savory recipes inspired by Chinese bakeries. You can find that recipe for her. Grandfather's Alban cookies at Splendid Table dot org coming up the newest food Adventurer's guide, gastro Obscura, I Francis her grandfather's almond cookies at splendidtable dot org. Coming up, the newest food adventurer's guide, Obscura, I'm Francis Lam, and this is the Splendid table from APM. Our Our show is supported by wine access, the official wine provider of the Michelin guide, whether you're new to wine or a seasoned show is supported by Wine Access, the official wine provider of the Michelin Guide. Whether you're new to Wine or a season collector. Why not access allows you to discover wines from both under the radar winemakers and iconic wine access allows you to discover wines from both under the radar winemakers and iconic producers. Every wine they offer is hand selected by a team of wine experts every bottle they ship includes the unique story behind it. Making each wine special wine access also takes the uncertainty out of trying new wines with its satisfaction making each wine special. Wine access also takes the uncertainty out of trying new wines with its satisfaction guarantee. 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Get $50 off at wineaccess.com/ Get fifty dollars off at yin access dot com slash table. Our Our show is supported by brought me show is supported by bromdy snacks. What a great healthy snack Brahmi Lupini beans are one of the most nutrient dense plants on earth with three times more protein than keenwah more fiber than oats, more antioxidants than berries, more potassium than What a great healthy snack? Bromine lupini beans are one of the most nutrient dense plants on earth, with three times more protein than quinoa, more fiber than oats, more antioxidants than berries, more potassium than bananas. And three times more iron than and three times more iron than kale. Nutritionally Brahmi is bromise unrivaled. Lupini beans are low calorie and keto friendly with zero carbs. Brombie is a great addition to any diet. Add them to a salad or a stir add them to a salad or stir fry. They're not baked fried or dried they're pickled with Italy's finest ingredients to create the world's best Lupini They're not baked fried or dried. They're pickled with Italy's finest ingredients to create the world's best lupini beans. Right now, get thirty percent off your first purchase. At brami snacks dot com with code Splendid Table thirty. See the subscription discount, free shipping, and a money back guarantee at brami snacks dot com. This really should be part of your everyday food prep. For healthy snacking thirty percent off, is it bromysnacks dot com code splendid table thirty. I'm Francis Lam, and this is the show for curious cooks and eaters. We're talking about some of our favorite food books for the fall this week. Next one, the fall isn't the cookbook at all. And just to get even a little further away from the point, comes from Atlas Obscura, a website that features headlines like sweet skunks that do six dunks the dark heart displaying deep sea fish. actually a travel website. Right? That features destinations Sandor, like, cultural attractions for a truly Sandor few years ago, they launched a food spin off called Obscura. They do the most incredible job in finding the most fascinating hidden food stories. now, they have a guidebook to eating the world their way, and also called Gastro Obscura. Dylan Theros is one of the authors. They can see it with us now. Hey, Dylan. Hey, Francis. Thanks for having me on. I'm I'm super excited. And I'm pumped, man. I am such a fan about the Obscura and Gastro Obscura. So Alice Obscura for listeners who don't know like covers all these amazing sometimes like secret places around the So Obscura, for listeners who don't know, like, covers all these amazing, sometimes like secret places around the world, like, I was just on the site I was reading about this museum in Philadelphia that has Albert Einstein's brain in it. Oh, computer museum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. But I guess I would have never thought about, like, where did Albert Einstein's brain go? Did it not go with him? No. It's in a museum in Philadelphia, and you can learn all about it, Sandor was Obscura. Sandor you've covered literally tens of thousands of these places around the world. And a few years ago, you started Gastro Obscura, which is like the food version. And, you know, we're talking mostly to cookbook authors on this episode, but I've really wanted to bring this book on because it is just such a cool compendium of hundred, maybe thousands, Hundreds, hundreds, five, 600 ish in that five, six hundred ish in that range. Yeah. Fascinating local foods all over the world, like lot of the things that you might only know about if you grew up in this place or some even if you grew up in this place, you might not even know about you have to really be in the know. So here's question. Let me turn it to you then. If the whole purpose of the enterprise is, like, fine with fascinating, that's close at Sandor, like, what did you grow up with that could have qualified to be in this book. That's a great question. It's funny. I came prepared with a similar like local question for you too I came prepared with a similar, like, local question for you too. First, I'll ask you. Okay. You so you're from New Jersey. Quick, really easy question to answer. Do you call it a pork roll or Taylor's ham? Oh, it's Taylor ham. But, you know, I don't know where Katzs Taylor Ham, but I will totally accept Taylor pork roll as an alternate Sandor for people who don't know, this is one of New Jersey's great gifts to the world, It's probably meaningful you've never heard of it because New Jersey's great Gastro the world. Like, usually things you've never heard of. But but it's basically like don't. How would you describe how would you describe it? It's it's it's in the scrapbook. Spam family. It's in it's in that, like, family of things. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a salty sliceable pork product that you fry up. You know what? It's like it's like a saltier, less smooth, less creamy, baloney. Yeah. And that any We would, like, fry up for, like, breakfast sandwiches. Invented by a a New Jersey Sandor, no less. Like, very prestigious. prestigious. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's the tailor in the ham and they had to change it from the name tailors. The reason it has these two names is because there was a ruling in, like, nine early nineteen hundreds. You can't call it a ham. You can't call it a ham, so they had to change it. No. So I'm I'm from the Midwest. grew up in Minnesota Sandor my family's roots are very Scandinavia Sandor super super Norwegian. So I grew up eating a lot of, like, pickled herring, which I -- Mhmm. -- love things like Lessa, super thin kind of pancake or crepe. Room cookie, which is like these little crunchy cookie rolls. They're so good. And then and and then, like, really kind of standard Minnesota summer activity was going to the state fair. And so pretty much every year, we'd go to the Minnesota State Fair, which has its own kind of culinary world of insanity and bizarre. That's literally everything on stick. It's true. But but the one of one of the things we always went to see, and we we put it in the book was the carving of the Princess k of the Milky Way. So basically, what it is in the middle of the State Fair, which is usually blazing hot. There's this air conditioned glass room where a young woman who works in dairy industry and weirdly also has to be un wed and under the age of twenty four, which is like, extremely specific. It's slight slightly medieval seeming. Anyway, she sits there and gets her likeness carved out of a ninety pound block of it's a different woman each day for the twelve days. Eventually, they crown won princess k of the Milky Way. And this is a tradition that's been going back it goes back decades, centuries really, at least the butter carving tradition like this. And And each year, the women who get their faces carbon butter, they get to take home their ninety pound block of butter. And then some of them basically get to carve their own head and use it on like a big pancake party. Which like carving your own head out of butter feels like a real it's a new personal life goal of mine. With that or, like, years of therapy later, you're like, oh, god. can't unsee Yeah. Good to be able to see you. And, like, I knew obviously about that tradition of butter. I got learn a little bit about the this woman from the eighteen hundreds who sorta became, like, the butter star. She was, like, carved butter in front of two thousand people. But I also learned about the fact that, like, Tibetan monks have this totally different parallel butter carving tradition where they carved Yac butter into these really beautiful, like, immaculate Diarama's displays, and they die the butter too. They add different kind of mineral coloring. So that these really colorful displays Sandor they combine flower to make them more permanent. And then at the end, just like a lot of other kind Buddhist traditions, they just, like, feed them to the livestock. But guess that's how it ends for all these butter sculptures when we are you know, You know, for a a Buddhist that makes perfect sense. So, you know, it's all about, like, lives and the reletting of lives and the cycling of of life. Totally. But actually, that is a theme in the book as well. Like, one thing you you sort of touched on lot are these monastic food, traditions, rituals, and from all over. Totally. It it it was really delightful to kind of see that theme emerge. And just to see the kind of particular traditions kept alive in monasteries within temples around the world. And it's not, you know, there's definitely a European heritage, but it cuts across nearly every continent The the other thing that I'll say is that least especially with the Europeans, they will really get you hammered. Like a lot of the European monisteric traditions are drinking traditions. So there's Lynde Farms Island, which is this, like, beautiful like magical looking island. It's basically Castle on a hill where it's like one of these tidal estuaries, so you can only get to it during certain times of the day. And and so Let me get low tide. Exactly. Over. Yeah. Yeah. So this was a place where they made this kind of need that was called, like, the elixir of the gods, and it was meat that was mixed with grape juice, a particular style of meat. And then it kind of disappeared and was reinvented in the sixties. So they're sort of remaking this monks style meat there. But there are other places where the monks are still very much active, like like chartreuse, which like I love drinking, is is a recipe that dates back basically nearly a a thousand years. Originally, it called for like a hundred eighty ingredients. And basically, in the seventeen hundreds, the monks found this like lost recipe. we're like, oh, man, this is too complicated. So they made a slightly different version that is was fifty five percent alcohol. So it it's, it's So Katzs it's hard. And then they've made, you know, other kind of lighter versions of that green chartreuse. And they're still it's a secret recipe. They're the only people who make it they have this enormous operation. It's it's really like a thing out of time. So I love I love learning about all of those. Traditions. That's super interesting. You know, it's funny because I I'm also a book editor Sandor I'm I'm working on a cookbook right now that is about, like, traditional Chinese vegan cuisine. Mhmm. A lot of which was developed in monasteries, Buddhist monasteries that were vegetarian. Yeah. And it's actually a really amazing delicious cuisine, you know, with thousands of years of tradition and innovation, you know, behind it. One of the things they would often do is they would make mach meat dishes. Yeah. Because the idea was, you know, you don't wanna harm the animals, but it wasn't like there was a distaste for the meat culturally, like, there's a lot of, like, symbolism that's embedded in certain dishes so they would create vegetarian versions of dishes Sandor like one of the recipes my author was working on was vegetarian fish, you know, beautiful vegetables Sandor mushrooms cooked into a sort of filling Sandor then wrapped in seaweed. In the shape of a fish, and then that whole thing is deep fried. So the seaweed is almost like crispy fish skin. That's awesome. yeah, it's a super amazing dish. But it was just that idea too like, this is where these, you know, maybe, like, in the mindset. There's not a whole lot, but the things you gotta do. So, like, you gotta time to, like, practice your craft. So it becomes this really amazing space around the world for, like, culinary innovation. Totally. So let me ask you what are some of your other favorite things in the book? Like, what's another thing that, like, you're dying to go taste? This is like such a hard question to answer. There's like so many different things. One one thing III was really interested to learn about was sort of North Korean beer brewing. And basically, there there wasn't much there up until basically the early two thousands when they got pretty serious about sort of becoming good brewers as like as like a state organization. And they went to this town, Traubridge, in the UK, and they literally just took an entire brewery. Like Brick by Brick, they disassembled this, you know, hundred plus year old brewery Sandor every screw, every bat, every toilet seat back, they, like, they, like, kind of, tried to take the brewer. They were, like, hey. Like, we need this guy. But, you know, and they re they recreated this enormous UK brewery within, eighteen months. And of and brew pretty good beers from everything that I was able to find out. I haven't been able to taste them for sort of obvious reasons. But you know, they also have developed a style of beer, which is a steam beer. There was an American sort of version of this in the Gold Mine era. it was made at higher temperatures because you didn't have refrigeration. And because North Korea has really unreliable electricity grids, it basically recreated this sort of lost or very old style of beer called steam beer. That's Anyway, I also like learning about dishes that, like, I thought I knew, like, you know, we have an entry on pad Thai in the book. And you might be like, well, that is, like, the farthest thing from obscure It's true. Yeah. But the history behind it, the way it came to be is basically the mandate of the then, you know, prime minister as sort of part of a nationalism project. He basically issued a bunch of mandates such that we're gonna call the country Thailand. There's sort of a no shirt, no shoes, no service mandate that basically said you all kind of have to dress within these parameters. And he was, like, fairly aggressive in many many ways. But one of the things that he did was basically said, we have this new dish. It's called pad Thai, Ironically, it's made out of Chinese noodles, but they are pretty cheap, they're pretty filling, and this is what we're all gonna eat. And weirdly, Like, it succeeded. Like, it actually became a beloved dish. In Thailand, it's still kind of, you know, people consider it the national dish there. And now, you know, everyone around world has had bad ties. So I just think an example of history where the the dish is very famous, but the the story behind it is maybe less known. Yeah. Yeah. And it goes perfectly into your idea of, like, oh, I do just dig a little bit right around you and just fascinating things about. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much, Dylan. It's been such a blast talking with you. I could go on for, so I could go so could go on for so I could go so long. We don't have enough time. This has been super Hundreds of memories. Ride the boat. Thanks, Francis. It's great talking to you. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Dylan Theurer is co author with Sicily Wong of Gastro a food adventurer's guide. When I think back to my first few years living in New York, I totally remember going to friends houses. And like all the time, they would have these delicious olives or spice nuts or sweets or whatever. And it was almost like every time I go, wow. These are so good. Where do you get them? So hoties. Sajaddis. hotties. So how do you sell Sajaddis. Sajaddis. hotties? So finally, one day I got myself to the hotties and honestly it was a little overwhelming because I walked in the store and there were just so many things like so many delicious looking and smelling So finally one day, I got myself to Sajaddis. And honestly, it was little overwhelming because I walked in the store there were just so many things like so many delicious looking and smelling things. And at the time, I had no idea what a lot of them were. Well, this legendary store has been an anchor of the Middle Eastern communities of New York for over a hundred years. I was certainly not the first customer who's ever walked in and got lost. So, hundred years later, they wrote a Cookbooks. Called flavors of the sun, which is a great book because it really does feel like it's written by a grocer. You know, here are these ingredients. Here's why you're gonna love them. Here's what to do with him. The author and fourth generation owner of Sajaddi's is Christine Sajaddi Whelan. So hey, Christine. I am so excited to talk with you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. You you are I mean, you probably don't know this, but I live not very far walk from Fahadis, the store on Atlantic Avenue, the eye the Icon. So I feel like I'm talking to royalty right now. I mean, For those who don't know the store, Sajaddis, it is absolutely an iconic store in New York City, one of the oldest stores importing Middle Eastern ingredients in the country. And it's just I don't know. It just feels like when you walk into it, doesn't feel like a store. It feels like it's its own universe. Actually, maybe let's start there, Christine. I mean, you this story has been in your family for now four generations. That's described to us who though, you know, who haven't had the pleasure of being there. What do you see when you walk in? What do what does it feel like? What do you want customers to to see in field when they walk into your store? Howard Bauchner: I think we really - we come from background of hospitality Sandor - Middle Easterners tend to be know, they want to share their food. And that's I think what we want people to feel when they walk in the door. We want you to smell the spices we want you to see. It's like a bizarre. There's stuff everywhere. There's there's jars filled with nuts and fruits and candies and there's there's Katzs and racks of beans the racks of the impact spices. We want your senses to be really in tune between the the just the busyness of the store and the and the smells that come from every area whether it's the kitchen cooking something or is that bread being made or the spices because we pack all our spices and alts in house so you can smell them all through the air. Yeah. We want you to we want you to walk in and be hungry. We want you to walk in and see the possibilities in terms of what you could make for dinner. Yeah. We don't want to be an antiseptic environment where you know, you just walk in, you pick up a package or something and you leave. We want you to ask questions and talk to our staff. I mean, a lot of our team has been with us a really long time Sandor most of them Cookbooks we wanna we wanna share the experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that you described it as almost like a bizarre. In the neighborhood, it's him. It's on Atlantic Avenue right at the edge of Brooklyn Heights, which is like one of the most historic oldest parts of Brooklyn. It's kind of like old money Brooklyn. there's this whole strip of Arab restaurants, stores. It's been there for decades. Tell us about this community and Sahati's role in it. Sure. So originally, when my great great uncle came, he settled in what was part of little Syria. It's where over the area where the Brooklyn battery tunnel is in Manhattan. When the tunnel was being constructed, there was a lot of Middle Eastern stores there. When the tunnel was being constructed, Even though it didn't displace them, it caused literally a shaking up of the neighborhood as they were digging. And it wasn't a very pleasant environment for the customers. So my grandfather was on that street with his shop he decided he bought the building in nineteen forty six we moved in nineteen forty eight to the place that we currently are at Atlantic Avenue. And one of the reasons he chose that area is because, like, most immigrants, he wanted to be where he was comfortable and architectural was right there. Mhmm. And the store the history of the store, it was actually one of the first importers of a lot of the ingredients that now, like, you know, you Yep. Tahine and and things like that. You you can find commonplace, but at one point, like, you could oh, there was only one place to get back. Absolutely. We've been importing our own stuff years. We've been dealing with a lot of the same farmers and a lot of the same producers for generations, literally generations. I mean, places especially when Middle food was much harder to get. You've developed partnerships we still buy from a lot of those same partners over the years. Mhmm. We are very proud of the fact that we are a family of fourth generation family business. So we really try to wear very loyal customers of our suppliers. And I think that Katzs helped us through periods where it was difficult to get things. It's helped us when we opened our new store. It's part and parcel of being such a long established business you know, the whole family extended family is proud of it because it's unusual in this day and age to have a business that's still growing and yet still owned by the original family. Right on. That's great. We'll be back with more Middle Eastern flavors with Christine Fahadie Whelan. And then it's fermentation Gastro, Sandor Katzs, with his new book, fermentation journeys. I'm Francis Lam, and this is a splendid table from APM. How do we talk about climate change? Sometimes, it feels untouchable. And if you're anything like me, all the dooms day numb folks who leave you feeling numb and hopeless. So, we decided to take a different approach from Wonder Media Network I'm Grace Lynch, and this is as she rises, a new podcast personalizing the elusive magnitude of climate change. Each week, we're connecting the power of poetry with the work of local activists to create an intimate portrait of climate change. Listen and follow as she rises on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Poetry has the power to connect our inner universe and the outer world in just one turn of phrase, poetry can anchor us or shift a moment a day, even a whole has the power to connect our inner universe and the outer world. In just one turn of phrase, poetry can anchor us or shift a moment a day, even a whole life. Join me Edel Limone on the slowdown for a poem and a moment of reflection in one short episode every weekday. Listen to the slowdown wherever you get your podcast. I appreciate this lamb this is the show for curious cooks and eaters. We're talking great fall cookbooks this week. We're mid chat with Christine Sahati Whaling. Brooklyn Royalty, fourth generation owner of the iconic Middle Eastern grocery store, Sahati's, and the author of the new book, Flavors of the Son. Let's go back to Christine. So let's turn to this book. There's this like little passage in it. This is great image of your grandfather who you said when he was young just getting in the business with his uncle. He used to invite customers to sit down and have a coffee and have a smoke with him before he would sell them anything. That's the fact. So, like, you probably can't do that anymore. But when a customer comes in or or you you find yourself talking to people, what are some of the things what are some of your favorite things to show customers when you talk with them? Like, oh, maybe even have this before, but check this out. Probably, let's see. I mean, certainly, Zaza, which is becoming a much more commonplace item in today's die I mean, like, you see it in local supermarkets today. But that spice is it's very much a part of least of my background. I mean, we use it in a ton of ways. We mix it into lemony. We use it in I'm in yogurt. We make gazade bread, of course, out of it. We make dips. And I feel like it's Sandor you seasoning people buy it because they see it in one thing. And then they are like, well, what I don't know what to do with of it. And as we use it more like in everything spice, like like the bagel spice or whatever. We put it in everything. We just sprinkle it on We just sprinkle it on salads. I mean, it's like the all purpose seasoning you put it on. Chicken was chickens and stuff. And I think people don't think to use it that way. What in yours, I'll tell her? So we do Lebanese. It's toasted sesame seeds, Sumak for sour, and it is the z allotted spice itself then sea salt. Okay. Az allotted itself is like a it's like a almost like an oregano, like, or breeder wild or Yes. Here. I see it marketed as hot and spicy going to like when I grow it in my yard, if I don't use middle Eastern seeds, if I use American, but there, it looks more like see a market as hot as I see right now. Like, when I grow it in my yard, if I don't use Middle Eastern seeds, if I use American, but there it looks more like time. It's a long I mean, it goes wild all over the roads. It's like a longer leaf. It's got a similar flavor to a combination of oregano and thyme, but it definitely looks more like thyme. Yeah. Sandor molasses. Now, I like this stuff. Making a mistake, but I am that person who like bought it for a recipe. It's literally been sitting in my it's been sitting in my in my in my pantry. What am I gonna do with it? It's really good in cocktails. I mean, you could do a great pomegranate mimosa with fresh pomegranate seeds. We use it in our in our cafe. We use it in our sombreia. Pomegranate sombreia. It's really good on a butter cake where you can just, you know, poke the top drizzle it in. It makes really pretty, you know, streaks in the It makes really pretty, you know, streaks in the cake. People you mostly in the Middle East use in savory applications. So I can use it on roast chicken. Today, I put it in a butternut squash. And leak a roasted soup. I drizzled it over before I roasted the the vegetables. But you can use it in salads certainly any place where you want to tarp but slightly fruity flavor. So we use it in in a lot of salads. It makes a great dressing. It's it blends really really well with Balsamic. So -- Mhmm. -- you, you know, wanna add I and I feel like winter salads benefit from having a little bit of a heavier dressing. So there you're gonna get like this fruity flavor. So you can always start a salad with toasted walnuts and pomegranate, you know, seeds. you know, maybe some kind of goat cheese or feta, which is another one of my fan favorites. I mean, I use it to glaze baby lamb chops around the holidays. Which is on -- Oh, cool. -- which are really good. But when it's cooked, just kinda I just place it on the if I do it on the griller in a grill pan, as I'm flipping it, I'll glaze the other side. It makes them shiny. the tautness cuts little bit of the richness of the lamb chop, and it looks really festive for a holiday. You know, if you're doing it for like a holiday meal, it's another great use. Right on. Let me get one more out of you, Harissa. Now, I enjoy Harissa also, you know, sort of a spice chili paste. In the book, you you make a distinction between Harissa spices versus like Harissa liquid. Yeah. Tell us about those two and how you like to use them. I love Reese. In case you can tell, we're using a lot of ten things in the butt. We make our own Reese's spices at store. So we buy all of our chili separate. We toast them all separately in the oven, including the whole spices, and then we grinds it in a food processor type machine. We do that because we wanted a very specific flavor profile, and I didn't want it just to be chili. I mean, the whole point of Harissa is that it does have a lot of other. It's got seeds in it. It's got, you know, cumin seeds caraway seeds and coriander seeds and you want all of those flavors to be well blended. So but we still want it to be chunky because otherwise it just looks like a ground chili Katzs texture is important as well as flavor. And we use it on everything I mean, it's used in the the slowest salmon that's in the buck. Katzs a mainstay deli. We sell hundreds of pounds per week. But I do also think that the Harissa Liquid has a ton of uses that people don't think of. You can get ones that are super, super hot, hours is not so you can use it as a table sauce as well as in marinade. We really wanted the customer and our guests to once again, the textural and the the different flavor profiles, we often will use them together. Like, I'll often marinate something with the red spices and then sprinkle with the dry or vice versa. I might marinate them with the dry with a little bit of olive oil Sandor then square a little bit of liquid on top. But once again, this is the kind of thing you can mix into hummus if you want your hummus to be spicy. You can certainly put it in any type of marinade. I mean, you wouldn't necessarily think that a strong spice like that would work well on fish, but it works great on salmon because it's very rich. You can use it on any kind of mistake. I mean, me, I will I will sprinkle it on, like, even big potatoes, something like that. You know, they it goes great on there with little bit of sour cream. It's just it has such a abuses, you know, savory yogurts. I'm middle eastern really big on savory yogurts. I know that it's not as common here, but we I never ate sweet yogurt when I was going up. It was not a thing. So you can put them in savory yogurt with with zato or without or in for dip you know, like a vegetable zipper because it's really good in there. And if you let it sit because it's, of course, the dry spice, it's gonna bloom. So as it's sitting in a dairy or something like that or in olive oil Yeah. The flavor just gets better and better. Exactly. It tastes it's Most things with Harissa spices taste good if not better the next day. Love it. And the recipe is in the And the recipe is in the book. Thank you so much, Christine. It's been so fun to talk with you. Thank you. I really appreciate you having me on. Christine Saadiwhelan's new book is flavors of the sun. The sun Hottie's Guide to Understanding, buying, and using Middle Eastern ingredients. You can find a recipe from a slow roasted Herissa Sandor, a point of table dot org. So if for some reason, sometime in the past twenty years, you have found yourself salting cabbage, putting in a crock, and skeptically letting it sit out for a few days. Or if you you, like, nervously put more milk in an oven with a pilot going on, hoping to make yogurt and not poison. And you ended up loving all the results. There's a decent chance you Sandor That's the thing. He's the author of Wild fermentation and the art of fermentation to classics. And he started his fermentation career, actually, while trying to improve his own health while living in a commune in Tennessee. And now, two decades later, he finds himself celebrated around the world, teaching classes, inspiring world class chefs home fermenters alike. And now he has a new book called fermentation journeys. The collection of recipes and ideas that people have taught him or inspired in him during his travels. It's fascinating. It's full of delicious It's full of delicious stuff. I'm so happy to get to talk to Sandor Katz. Hey, Sandor. It's so great to have you. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm so excited about this book because to me, it almost feels like reading your notebook. In the sense that, you know, the art of fermentation you know, which frankly is a classic, they're almost ten years old. There's so much detailed knowledge. It's a tremendous resource. It's a reference. this book feels free. Like, to me, it almost felt like I was like reading your notebook after you've come home from a trip and you're like, oh, I gotta write this thing down, these wonderful people. I met this thing, they taught me and this technique I want to experiment with and I met, this thing they taught me this technique I wanna experiment with and try. So I wanna know, like, what are some of your favorite recipes or techniques? Are in this book that, like, really surprise you that you really love and you really love showing people? Well, first of all, let me tell you that you're absolutely right that these are things that I've encountered that I said, oh, I'm so excited about this. I want to share this with people. You know, I I can assure you my notebooks are not as well put together as as as as the book is. You would have anyone would have trouble understanding them. But, you know, I mean, this book is full of lots of things that I'm super excited about. know, just to pick, you know, one thing that's just like a real surprise transformation, you know, Ricardo Miso -- Mhmm. -- you know, which is something I learned about, not in my travels, but from one time student, Jeremy Umansky, who went on to write this book with rich she about Koji Koji Alchemy. And I learned from them about Riccardo Miso. And, you know, when I tried it, it just it blew my mom. Like, you know, you take some, you know, very plain Ricotta cheese, you add some kochi and some salt, you mix them together and pack them into a jar then, you know, leave them in the back of your refrigerator for a couple of months. And then what you end up with is a paste that Katzs just like Parmesan cheese. I mean, you know, it's a tough Katzs. It's an incredible unlikely transformation. Katzs so cool. And so for folks to know, Koji is an inoculated rice, so for folks who know Koji is an inoculated rice. Right? If you it looks like rice when you buy it. But it's been inoculated with spores of a beneficial mold. And as you just stir it with salt in the in ricotta and let it hang out, and that's it. Yeah. I mean, Koji is, you know, an amazing transformative substance. I mean, you know, Koji is what turns, you know, soybeans into soy sauce. it's an important part of what turns rice into sake. And, you know, it just has this incredible the the the fungus that grows, Aspergillis or rice, which you can grow on rice or soybeans or barley or it turns out a multitude of of of different substrates. But it produces all of these enzymes that can break down carbohydrates, break down proteins, break down fats, you know, and it really just results in, you know, extraordinary umami flavors. Yeah. And even just by itself with salt and little water, becomes a thing called sheocology, right, which is an amazing Katzs just sort of it's sort of sweet. It's umami. You can marinate things in it. It's really awesome. Right. And power for a marinade is that these enzymes are still active. And so, you know, if you marinade your you know, your fish or your pork chop or your cauliflower in it. You know, those those enzymes will be breaking down proteins, breaking down carbohydrates, and really like building up the flavor that we experience when we eat them. Super. And I was also really excited to see, like, elements or recipes in in this book that had even for someone who is completely new to fermenting foods at home, there things that just Katzs not even like, oh, you have to, like, you know, find your co g Sandor I'm thinking of the farinata, which is traditionally a a chickpea pancake From Italy, there, you know, there are lots of versions of it, like, all over the Mediterranean different names. But tell us about the way you make Faranata? Well, sure. And let me just say because, you know, we we we did go off on this tangent about Koji. I mean, Koji is wonderful, but you know, the vast majority of Fermentation processes are extremely, extremely simple and I mean, Koji is wonderful. But, you know, the vast majority of fermentation processes are extremely, extremely simple and straight forward. And -- Yeah. -- you know, Fari Natto would be a great example of that because all you're doing is you're taking some chickpea flour, mixing it with water, But then instead of, you know, making the the fariunata cake right away, you you give it one or two or three days depending on the temperature. You whisk it every day until it starts becoming frothy with lots of little bubbles. And then if you make your foreign out to cake, it just becomes so light and fluffy and the fermentation lifts it just like it does with a loaf of bread. But all you've done is soaked a chickpea flour in in in water for a few days. And with any kind of a dry food, any kind of a, you know, being or grain or not or seed, you know, it's full of microorganisms just like a fresh vegetable or fruit would be, but they're dormant because it's dry the first step is simply to add water. And, you know, a huge number of ferment, you know, in the world and in my new book, you know, really involve the utter simplicity of, you know, soaking something in water to initiate the fermentation. I love that. Sandor to be clear, so that's not typically how, like, foreign art is made. Like, typically, you make it by by mixing the chickpea flour and water. You let a hydrate maybe for a couple hours. But basically, that's your batter. And and your spit on it was Why don't you let it hang out for a bit first? Exactly. Exactly. I mean, most of the recipes, you know, emphasize letting it soak for an hour, for four hours for eight hours so that the water can fully absorb into the chickpea flour. And, you know, anytime I see recipe that encourages people to, you know, let it sit for some hours. You know, what I think is, well, what happens if you let it sit for some days? And what made what made me decide to start experimenting with this is so many people ask me the question, you know, Asia is so full of you know, fermentations of beans outside of Asia. You know, like, are there traditions of fermenting beans? And And, you know, I haven't really been able to come up with many, but just through experimentation, you know, I have found that, you know, fermentation can things made from beans even better, even lighter -- Yeah. -- even more delicious. And so this is true of Fari nata then another recipe that I have in there is for a la carte, which is an Brazilian fried sort of flavor. Out of black eyed peas. Yeah. And same thing, if you ferment it for a day or two first, it just gets lighter and more delicious. And, you know, this is what fermentation does. I love love it. This is so cool. Let me ask you about one more thing because I was so intrigued by it. My daughter loves Romeo. Almost every morning. I am amazed by it because, you know, it's one of the more nutritious things you could want I'm so happy to come with that instead of, like, you know, frozen waffles or whatever. But folks are really into overnight Sandor I've never really developed a taste for that. But you have I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. Kiesel in this book, where you soak oats in water not overnight, but perhaps for several days as you say, and it totally transforms them. Tell us about that. Yeah. So it's Kisil. And this this this is AAA name of this food from Belarus, which is where my maternal grandparents came from. And, you know, the idea of fermenting grains before we make a porridge for them. It's a universal idea, you know, until baby food came along, that was the weaning food that, that people them is a it's a universal idea. You know, until baby food came along, you know, that was the the weaning food that that people used it's a great food particularly for young children and elderly people. But, you know, it's so easily digestible that it's great for anybody. But anyway, I thought this casino was especially relevant given you know, the the trend for oat milk. Mhmm. Because what you do is you you soak the rolled oats or you can use other forms of Katzs, but you soak the oats in water for several days, let's say, three or four days, and then you strain it out that water is thick and starchy and and oaty and a little bit fermented Sandor I mean, to me, it just tastes like the most wonderful oat milk. And then you take the oats themselves and you cover them with fresh water Sandor you hook that into just the creamiest porridge I've ever had. You know, this is how simple fermentation can be. And at one point in in Belarus and elsewhere in in Eastern Europe, foods like Kaseel were very widely consumed. But an ethnobotanist who I met at the University of Gastronomy in Italy sent me a bunch of his papers they identified this kiss seal and related foods elsewhere in Europe. As, you know, one of the primary traditional foods in danger of extinction. Sandor, you know, as someone who, like your daughter, loves, oats, you know, I wanna be part of reviving this kind of tradition. Well, thank you for that. And thank you for this book Sandor all the exciting ideas in it. And again, like, just emphasizing, like, fermentation is something that can be that is literally all around us. And so it's just about harnessing it in sometimes really simple ways that are so delicious. So I'm Sykes to Cookbooks this book, and thanks for joining us, Sandra. Okay. Well, it's my pleasure, Francis. Thank you so much for having me. And you know, I hope that my fermentation journeys inspire other peoples. Absolutely. Sandor Katzs author of Sandor Katzs fermentation journeys, recipes, techniques, and traditions from around the world. You can find that recipe for casino at splendotable dot org. that is our show for the week. There's so many super great cookbooks coming out this fall and this is just a handful of the ones we love. Go to this month see what's coming out please keep bookstores and publishers in business. Hey. If you don't already, check out our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or Weber. You get them. And subscribe to a weekly recipe newsletter. It's called weeknight Kitchen. You can sign up for it at spoolinna table dot org. Thank you for tuning in. I'm Francis Lamb, and this is APM. American public media.