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I'm

1:22

Francis Lamb, and this is a Splendid

1:24

table from APM.

1:28

So if you're like me, you have spent dozens

1:31

of evenings over the past few years watching

1:33

a great British baking show. It's

1:36

such a sweet, mellow

1:38

hour, you know. It's a competition show where

1:40

the contestants are all regular people

1:42

are just doing their best. They really seem

1:44

that genuinely like each other. And the

1:46

stakes are never that much higher than

1:48

a nice piece of cake. It's a

1:50

ball for these intense times,

1:52

but it's not to say that the show doesn't

1:54

have character. A lot of that character

1:56

comes from the judges. For

1:59

the past five seasons,

1:59

Pruleaf has been

2:02

one of those judges, the one with a fabulous sense

2:04

of style and always likes it

2:06

when the baker's booze up their desserts a little.

2:08

She's caring and supportive and

2:11

before you start thinking though that she's

2:14

just a nice lady on TV who likes rum

2:16

cake, she's

2:16

got a whole groundbreaking history

2:19

as a chef restor tour,

2:21

and cooking teacher. She's got a new

2:23

book called Bliss on and she

2:25

joins us now.

2:26

Hi, Pru. is so lovely

2:28

to have you in the studio. How are you?

2:30

I'm really well, and I'm loving

2:32

New And it's such an honor

2:34

to be on this forecast. I'm really pleased

2:36

to be here. Well, thank you for saying

2:39

that. New York loves you too. So we're glad to have

2:41

you. And, you know, you've

2:43

you've flown quite a way to get

2:45

here to talk about something as important

2:46

as we're gonna talk about. So I wanna treat it

2:49

with the level of respect that it deserves. I

2:52

love toast.

2:53

Well, I think it

2:54

deserves results. I love

2:57

that. So how did you come to write a book

2:59

about food on toast? Well,

3:01

two

3:02

things. One was that in

3:04

lockdown, I was making

3:07

food for two for months and months

3:09

and months, just for me and my husband. And

3:12

and

3:12

I'm a caterer and a restaurateur. I

3:15

cannot cook for two all the time. It's

3:17

just too boring. So of course, I'd make

3:19

roast chicken, Noah. or casserole

3:21

or something for four people, at least.

3:23

Sure. And then, of course, we'd have to eat at leftovers

3:26

because I'm much too Scottish to ever throw

3:28

anything away. So

3:30

and all these things would end up on toast.

3:33

And then I realized, actually, everything

3:35

tastes better on toast. So That

3:37

was the origin of the toast.

3:40

And the other thing is that I've

3:42

been doing recently a review of

3:44

hospital food trying to help

3:47

the National Health Service do

3:49

better food in hospitals. And

3:52

the single biggest complaint

3:54

we had from patients was

3:57

that there was no toast, that they couldn't

3:59

be interested in

3:59

toast. You know, toast is so comforting.

4:02

It's what we, at least,

4:03

the Brit we all go to toast

4:05

if you're not feeling well. Even

4:07

if you're feeling quite sick, you can

4:10

eat a bit of dry toast and it's really

4:12

comforting. then you get a bit better and

4:14

you want toast with butter on it. And then if

4:16

you're a Brit, you want toast with butter and

4:18

marmeade on it. Toast is

4:20

a sort of national sacred

4:22

thing. and to not be able to get a bit

4:24

of toast in hospital is disgraceful. You

4:26

know,

4:26

it's funny because I when I was young, when

4:28

I was sick, you know, if my mother would

4:30

say, you shouldn't eat any food, but you should

4:32

eat toast. Mhmm. And now

4:34

that I look back at it, I think. I think I think Chinese

4:37

like, we bread exists but it's not

4:39

like our our staff of life. I don't know

4:41

why. Thank you so much. And not

4:43

rice. Well, she grew up in Hong Kong, which

4:45

was a British colony. So maybe she had been inconcating

4:47

at this British love of toast. Yeah. That's

4:49

true. Yeah. So so

4:52

looking at the book, which is, you know, tidy

4:54

and small and lovely, And the recipes

4:56

are very simple. Mhmm. They all look fabulous.

4:58

And then you have a great note in there, which is,

5:00

you know, it's a cookbook. It's

5:02

about toast. I mean, frankly, you should be able to

5:04

look at most of the pictures and just be able to make

5:06

this thing. So it's really about the combinations.

5:08

There are some really lovely recipes

5:10

in there as well, but in

5:12

thinking about putting it

5:14

together, I know you said everything tastes better onto us,

5:16

but I'm sure you have ideas about what

5:19

rules about, you know, what you follow

5:21

when composing?

5:22

Exactly. I think that all

5:25

trained chefs and most people

5:27

who become good cooks end

5:29

up knowing

5:30

what goes with what. Sure.

5:32

If something is very rich, you need

5:34

something which is a little bit acidic to cut

5:36

through that richness. Mhmm. If something is

5:38

very dry, it needs something creamy or

5:40

oily to go with it. And so on, so

5:42

it's something it's about tech Sometimes,

5:44

it's about taste. You want a contrast of

5:46

taste. Okay. And you don't want too many

5:48

flavors, I think. Mhmm.

5:49

Problem

5:50

was a lot of bad cooks franchise.

5:53

They've put too many flavors in.

5:55

And then it's like mixing a

5:57

pot of colors. You know, if a child

5:59

has a

6:00

paintbox, and they mix every single

6:02

color together,

6:03

which they always do. You

6:05

end up with brown. Yes. It's just always

6:07

very boring. Yeah.

6:08

And the same thing happens with your taste buds.

6:11

If you have too many flavors, it there's

6:13

no flavor. So That's

6:15

alright. I think what I'm trying to do with the

6:17

blissante's. is to give

6:19

people inspiration

6:20

to do other

6:22

things. Mostly, when I

6:24

write recipes, I'm rather boring about it.

6:26

I say, if you wanted to work, follow the to

6:28

be. Don't tell me you don't like it and

6:30

then turns out you've put in if you

6:32

thought if I put one

6:33

glass of sherry in it, three glasses

6:35

would be three times better. It wouldn't.

6:38

I've I've watched it on TV. I think most

6:40

of the time you would say that's okay.

6:41

Yeah. Yeah. No. I do like

6:43

a bit But

6:46

that's perhaps a bad example. A

6:50

lot of bad cooking comes from

6:52

people, not following the rest usher. If

6:54

the, you know, cooks professional

6:56

cookie writers ages,

6:58

you know this, getting the recipe

7:00

right, getting the measurements right.

7:02

So it's better to follow

7:04

them. But in this book, I'm not

7:06

saying that at all. The whole idea

7:08

was that people are too busy --

7:10

Mhmm. -- and they have no time and no

7:12

money. So basically,

7:15

these things on toast

7:17

are generally not expensive. There are a few

7:19

luxury

7:19

things there. But

7:21

most of them are about one dollars –

7:23

the ingredients cost about one. dollars And

7:26

I also think that we

7:28

shouldn't be snobbish about good store

7:31

covered ingredients. I mean, not everybody

7:33

wants to make their own mayonnaise or their

7:35

own holidays or their own even

7:37

flatbread or I've given recipes at the

7:39

back from how to do these things

7:41

yourself if you really want to. I'm

7:43

not expecting people to do that. I think

7:45

it's perfectly legitimate to

7:48

have Taffan

7:49

art out of a jar or Pesto

7:51

out of a jar or mayonnaise out

7:53

of a jar. Why not forget to say? You have

7:55

for sure. Hello, there is a wonderful recipe

7:57

in there that is for a pastor that I don't

7:59

think you can buy out of a jar because you call it English

8:01

pastor. Yeah. And instead of

8:04

basil, pine nuts, and parmesan, you

8:06

have parsley walnuts

8:09

and cheddar. Yeah. That

8:11

sounds fabulous. And you just make it very

8:13

And and grape seed oil instead

8:16

of olive oil. Mhmm. And it

8:18

is lighter than pesto. And a

8:20

pesto is

8:20

absolutely delicious because of that heavy

8:22

basil and its richness of the olive

8:24

oil. But you can't eat a lot of

8:26

it because it's it's just very

8:28

powerful. Yeah. The

8:29

English professor was much milder, and

8:32

I actually prefer it. Is that

8:34

was that your invention? Or that --

8:35

Yeah. I'd invent it actually

8:37

for a book, a few books back,

8:40

but you'll get lots of investors now,

8:42

made up all sorts of things. For

8:43

sure, for sure. So

8:46

the recipes, again, they're as much

8:48

suggestions as they are recipes.

8:50

They're all very simple. I love that

8:52

spirit that you talked about. But you

8:54

also

8:55

famously ran a restaurant with a Michelin

8:58

Star. When you were one of

9:00

the maybe only certainly

9:02

one of the only women who had

9:04

a restaurant with a Michelin store in London at

9:06

the time. How did you get into food?

9:08

Well,

9:08

I grew up in South Africa and

9:11

To be honest, I never thought of being a cook

9:13

in South Africa. Mostly

9:15

because it was under the apartheid, you know,

9:17

absolutely iniquitous a

9:19

part a regime. Mhmm. And

9:22

there was job divisions, you

9:24

know, you couldn't be a you couldn't even be

9:25

a bricklayer if you were black. But on

9:27

the other hand, it was very difficult for a white woman

9:29

to

9:29

be a cook. And

9:31

so I I

9:32

grew up with really good

9:35

food. We had a Zulu cook. It

9:37

was a great chef. Mhmm. He had been a top chef

9:39

in

9:39

a French restaurant.

9:41

And he could have told me to cook, but it

9:43

never occurred to my Leith. Ondy

9:46

to me that I should go in

9:48

the

9:48

kitchen. Mhmm. So it

9:49

was a very strange life, but,

9:51

of course, I didn't think it

9:52

stretch because I was That was normal. Yeah. normal

9:55

for me. And

9:55

so it wasn't until I got to

9:58

Paris

9:58

that I

10:00

realized just how important food

10:02

is. You know, you'd go to

10:04

a a brasserie or cafe and

10:06

stand at the bar. And I remember

10:08

hearing some guy who was obviously a captain of

10:10

industry or something talking with

10:12

his chauffeur, his driver. about

10:15

where he was going to eat that night, and they were

10:17

discussing food. And the

10:19

metro worker next to

10:21

the driver who joined

10:23

in. And they were all talking knowledgeably

10:26

about where the best who

10:28

made the best steak

10:30

freight and and

10:31

where they I remember somebody

10:33

talking about a restaurant where they grew

10:35

their own raspberries and

10:37

things. And I thought, nobody

10:39

talks about food. when I I was

10:41

growing up too, there were about five things you

10:43

never talked about. You never talked about

10:45

God God. You never talked about

10:47

religion. Never talked about politics. didn't talk

10:49

about sex. You didn't talk about

10:51

food. God knows what they did talk about

10:53

because all of these things were not

10:54

polite. Money. You didn't talk

10:57

about money. And all of those are the

10:59

interesting

10:59

things. I don't know what we're

11:01

talking about. I

11:01

mean, my mother was an actress. I guess we talked

11:03

about theater a lot Lawson books and things,

11:05

but we didn't talk about those things.

11:08

And so there I was in France with people

11:10

talking about food and we

11:12

were eating wonderful food. I was

11:14

eating really good food in the family. I stayed

11:16

and I was

11:17

mother's help, you know, an au

11:19

pair. Mhmm.

11:20

And I remember the

11:22

very first day, I learned so much

11:24

because the first day we went

11:25

before breakfast. to buy

11:28

the bread to the French tour before

11:30

breakfast every morning. And

11:31

we went to three shops, one for the

11:33

baguettes. one for the croissant and

11:36

one

11:36

for the cake. And

11:38

I said, well, why don't we buy everything at

11:40

one? Because they they all sell everything.

11:42

And she looked at me as if I was completely banned.

11:44

She said, because this guy has the best croissant,

11:47

this guy has the best beer.

11:49

And then we made the children's lunch

11:51

that day, and she

11:53

I mean,

11:54

the very fact that I spoke English would guarantee

11:56

in her mind that I

11:57

couldn't talk, and she was quite right.

11:59

So I

11:59

wasn't allowed to touch the food

12:03

But she made for the children

12:05

who was six months old and

12:07

eighteen months old. So there were

12:08

two babies, a toddler and a

12:10

baby. And we made she

12:12

made two little plates

12:14

with steak,

12:15

potatoes, and

12:17

salad. And Little

12:19

stakes were seared on both sides,

12:21

so they were rare in the middle and nice

12:23

and brown on the outside. She

12:26

rowed the new potatoes in butter

12:28

with a bit of

12:28

chives and she turned the letter sleeves in

12:30

French dressing all homemade. Mhmm.

12:32

And she made these two perfect

12:33

plates And then I liquidized the

12:36

babies, and she

12:37

chopped up the toddlers.

12:39

And the toddlers sat in a

12:41

high chair and the baby on my lap and

12:43

we sat down there at lunch. And

12:45

that was my whole food philosophy

12:48

learned in that day because it was I've

12:50

sort of never deviated from it. It's about

12:53

good ingredients, water is a great

12:55

deal of care -- Mhmm. -- cooking

12:57

pretty well at the last minute and

12:59

doing it with love and

13:01

attention and care -- Mhmm.

13:03

-- making

13:04

it look advertising and then

13:06

sitting down

13:07

and eating is knees under,

13:09

round

13:09

the table and talking to

13:12

the children and talking to each other.

13:14

And I think you know, if I if

13:16

we could just get children to

13:19

learn

13:19

to love good food like that,

13:22

we

13:22

would not have obesity problem. We wouldn't

13:24

have half the problems we have. If

13:27

children just grew up learning to

13:29

love good food, that's

13:31

I've been I've been saying this for fifty years,

13:34

Francis. And nobody has ever taken a blind bit of

13:36

notice. I've made no difference.

13:38

but I really believe it that we should

13:40

teach children to eat and the

13:42

way it teach children

13:42

to eat is to teach them to cultivate, to teach them

13:45

about food,

13:45

and to teach

13:46

them. to interest

13:48

them in food. Yeah. For sure. Moving

13:52

back

13:52

with more of Leith

13:54

author of Bliss on toast. I'm Francis

13:57

Lam, and this is Splendid table

13:59

from APM.

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Hey, I'd

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like to take a minute to thank our friends at

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15:16

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probably already know Leith Leaf from the Great

15:20

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from just being the iconic

15:25

Lawson. But

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you probably know that Victorinox are

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15:41

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16:02

highest quality blade, working

16:04

reliably as you experiment, Nigella, and

16:06

grow as a chef on your own time.

16:08

life skills take practice. And in fact, just the other

16:10

week, the host from our fellow APM podcast,

16:12

too beautiful to live, they were talking with their

16:14

listeners about how much of a having

16:16

a good knife in the kitchen can make. And one

16:18

of their hosts, Luke Burbank, is

16:21

maybe slightly obsessed with

16:23

his Victoria Next Tomato knife,

16:25

which Sounds funny until you actually

16:27

use one. And you get these clean

16:30

slices or perfectly quarter tomatoes

16:32

and you realize I don't

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So you can find the Toronox kitchen

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premium kitchen knives are sold.

16:50

I'm Francis Lam, and this is the show for

16:52

curious cooks and eaters. We're spending

16:54

time with the British cooking icon

16:56

and star of the Great British baking

16:58

show, TrueLeaf. go

17:00

back

17:01

to a blender.

17:03

At some point,

17:05

you decided to go to

17:08

colors ago, you moved to from Paris to London to the culinary

17:10

school. I think this was in nineteen sixteen.

17:13

Yeah. About six nine. Yeah. What was

17:15

the culinary school in London in nineteen

17:17

sixty? Like, Well, I

17:19

went to

17:19

the Cordon bleh and it was a

17:21

really good cookary school. It was

17:23

the techniques were all

17:24

classic French based technique.

17:27

we learnt, you know, all classic French dishes.

17:29

But there

17:30

was a sort of English country house

17:33

feeling about

17:33

the food. it wasn't

17:35

over decorated. It wasn't

17:38

carving

17:40

sort of snow

17:43

white out of butter or blood

17:45

and making the Eiffel Tower

17:47

out of

17:48

Woven. tater bits or

17:51

something.

17:51

And the chord unblah, because

17:53

it had started as a

17:55

school to teach

17:56

domestic cook hard to cook.

17:58

It wasn't all about this

17:59

hotel decoration stuff. It was much

18:02

more about the quality of

18:04

food.

18:04

And so I

18:05

learned a lot there. And then had a bed sitter

18:07

in London. And while I was

18:09

still at school, I started to

18:12

become a kind of cook for hire, and I'd

18:14

go around to do your dinner party. And

18:16

so Mhmm. And then

18:18

I'd built up

18:18

a little you know,

18:20

little following of

18:23

customers all by

18:24

word-of-mouth. And so that's how

18:26

I started. Yeah. And

18:28

you said you would when we spoke earlier,

18:30

you said you've made sandwiches

18:33

for construction workers -- Yeah. -- and

18:35

royal parties. Yeah. Exactly.

18:38

was it? Quite a client

18:40

base. Yeah.

18:40

In the end, I

18:43

had hugely expensive

18:45

plans. And of course, when I opened a

18:47

restaurant, I got a lot of publicity

18:49

because I was woman. And

18:51

as you said, there were not very many

18:53

women who had smart restaurants.

18:55

And even before we had a Michelle Star,

18:57

which did take a very long time to

19:00

get, I

19:01

had a lot of smartly

19:03

Leith because one of the

19:05

reasons I think was because we had no rules.

19:07

I didn't have a

19:09

dress code. I've never thought rest of theirs

19:12

should tell customers what

19:14

they're to

19:15

eat, what they're to drink. If

19:18

they want I

19:19

mean, nobody if somebody wanted to put a

19:21

blob of ice cream into Chateau Latour

19:24

first

19:24

growth wine, And

19:28

they've bought

19:28

it. They've got a perfect ride to do

19:30

it, and I would want my waiters to

19:32

be

19:32

cooperative and charming about it, not

19:35

snobbish. Mhmm. Mhmm.

19:36

And so we had no

19:39

dress code and

19:41

we

19:41

stayed at them very late. And that meant

19:44

that the Theta crowd could

19:46

come after the theater. Mhmm. And the

19:48

music

19:48

crowd would come. And so right at the beginning,

19:50

from the very beginning, we had top actors

19:53

like, Alek innocent John Gilbert and

19:55

and we

19:55

had Lulu and the

19:57

Rolling Stones

19:58

and the Beatles and all these

19:59

people came to the restaurant. And

20:03

really, we weren't that good.

20:05

We weren't that good. But

20:07

but I had a lot of publicity because

20:09

I was a woman.

20:11

So, you know, people often say how did

20:13

you break the glass ceiling? But because I was

20:15

always self employed, there was no

20:18

glass ceiling. I was making

20:20

the rules. women

20:20

suffer when

20:22

they've got a boss

20:24

got a bomb

20:24

who who is,

20:26

you know,

20:28

institutionally anti women

20:30

-- Mhmm. -- that if

20:32

your own boss, it's much easier.

20:34

Sure. When you

20:35

say you weren't that good. What

20:39

did that look like? And how did you get better? Because

20:41

presumably, when I tell you

20:43

one

20:43

thing. I mean, even

20:45

ten years into my thing, I would look

20:47

at my first menus and think, oh, god,

20:49

that sounds dreadful. Because sometimes

20:51

I would do things that I thought

20:54

I ought to have on the menu because

20:56

other restaurants had them or because somebody had

20:58

recommend them. I mean, I remember once

21:00

we had a dish on the menu.

21:03

which my head chef wanted to put

21:06

on. And I honestly think it's the most

21:08

disgusting dish

21:08

that has ever existed.

21:11

And I'd be interested

21:12

here if any of your listeners

21:15

have ever eaten it. It's

21:17

called oysters morné and

21:19

it's basically cooked oysters

21:20

under a cheese sauce?

21:22

Well,

21:22

I mean, what a crime? I mean, I

21:24

didn't like cooked oysters anyway. I think

21:26

they Oster

21:27

should be absolutely as they come

21:29

out as a sea. I don't even put vinegar on

21:32

them. I just swallow them. Yeah. I like

21:34

them. As they are. Straight. Yeah.

21:35

And and traditionally, oysters used to

21:37

go into steak and kidney pies and things to

21:39

bulge them up. Sure.

21:40

Sure. Sure. Just extra protein and it was

21:42

just a cheap way. It was cheaper than the steak. Yeah.

21:44

For the mistake. but but

21:48

Oasis Morné is truly disgusting.

21:51

And we used to we used to sell it. I mean, I didn't

21:53

remember anybody ever complaining about it.

21:55

So presumably, Not everybody hated

21:57

this thing. And all I say,

21:59

you know, I've been doing

21:59

this one woman show.

22:01

And one of the reasons I'm in New York

22:04

is because we had to try out

22:06

the other night in the Darryl Roth

22:08

Theatre in Union Square.

22:10

And to be honest, Francis, that's the

22:12

first time I've enjoyed the thing was to show. And

22:15

absolutely loved it because I love the

22:17

audience. I've done four in England

22:19

and I was quite nervous and I didn't

22:21

really Leith it very much. But this

22:23

was fantastic, and I loved it. So now I'm

22:25

going to go ahead and do two more in New York.

22:27

And then next year, I'll do big tours.

22:30

Let's repeat anyhow. As

22:32

part of the show, we've got film

22:34

clips coming up behind me and and

22:36

photographs jumping up as I'm talking about

22:38

the restaurant and I'm talking about how much

22:40

I love that restaurant, which I had for

22:42

twenty five years. And I just

22:44

love bigger rest of it. So

22:46

there's a long clip about it, but

22:47

it ends up with one of the waiters. We

22:49

had this

22:50

first or trolley trolley is with choice on

22:53

petroleum. And

22:54

the waiter is dishing up

22:57

food that looks so clumsy and

23:00

so ugly. And you

23:02

just be listening to me talking

23:04

about how delicate food should

23:06

be and how light

23:08

the first courses have to be otherwise people

23:10

would buy a second course. and

23:12

and I'm banging on about the importance of elegance. And

23:14

then the picture, it's sort of half

23:16

a mountain filled with

23:19

farms

23:19

and gyro source or something.

23:21

It's absolutely

23:22

clumsy and terrible.

23:24

I

23:25

know it's quite funny.

23:27

Well, you harsh judge of your own restaurant. It

23:29

turns out. And, you know, I think that brings

23:31

us to, you know, we'll fast

23:33

forward a few decades and here we are

23:35

in, you know, today where,

23:37

you know, most people in the states know of you

23:39

as a judge on the Great British Bake Off.

23:42

Mhmm. I always forget, is that the English

23:44

title or maybe Art Bake Off is

23:46

the English Okay. So we making

23:48

shows. Yeah. We call it a great British baking

23:50

show even though I in my mind, it's always gonna be

23:52

the bake off. Mhmm. And

23:54

we we know you as one of the judges on the show and

23:56

in particular a supportive and

23:58

kind and loving judge. So it's

24:00

sort of funny to hear you talk about

24:02

That's not just being god awful.

24:04

It wasn't old god. Yeah.

24:06

Yeah. That's the way. I I kept trying to lead you. Tell us

24:08

about what was good, but you kept trying to talk about how

24:10

it was bad. But so

24:13

tell us about your experience in the

24:15

show, you've been on for, what is it now,

24:17

like, four, five seasons. Mhmm.

24:20

You were previously also

24:22

a judge on a different show Leith a British

24:24

menu. Yeah. With the contestants were

24:26

professional chefs. Do you judging a

24:28

professional chef differently than you do the amateur

24:31

bakeries on? No.

24:32

I don't. I mean, I've judged

24:35

food because I had a chef school.

24:37

which is still very successful and

24:39

still there, and another one in

24:41

South Africa. I have judged

24:44

thousands and

24:44

thousands of students, exam

24:48

dishes, if

24:48

you like. Mhmm. So I'm I'm not I

24:50

don't think the greatest baker in the world,

24:53

but I'm down good set of taste buds.

24:55

Mhmm. And and

24:57

I don't judge anything

24:59

any differently. I just do say

25:01

what I think. Sure. And

25:04

I suppose

25:04

with great British menu, with

25:06

professional chefs, I would be a little

25:08

bit tougher if I thought that they

25:11

were doing something really stupid.

25:13

Like, occasionally, professional

25:15

chefs are so keen to show all their

25:17

skills at once -- Mhmm. -- that they will give you

25:19

a plate with far too many tastes

25:22

on it. you

25:22

know, there'll be a drizzle of this

25:24

and a bit of foam of that and

25:25

a and a parmesan

25:27

crisp and then some crumbly

25:31

and then there'll be a couple of sources and

25:33

two or three main ingredients

25:35

in. And it's just exhausting.

25:39

So I would say so. I'm quite

25:42

blunt

25:42

because I think they should know better. And

25:45

I went recently to a little

25:47

restaurant in my local town.

25:49

which is by a really top

25:51

head chef. Anyway, when he

25:53

told me it was a tasting menu, my heart

25:56

sinks at a tasting menu. So I know gonna

25:58

take forever. I'm gonna feel I'm

26:00

eating far too much. But

26:02

he

26:02

had probably, his tasting menu

26:04

was only six dishes. but

26:06

none of them were bigger than a sort of small

26:09

hands egg. Mhmm. So

26:11

even though you'd eaten six

26:13

things, they

26:14

were all exquisite. None of them had more than

26:16

four ingredients in them. Mhmm. But the combination

26:18

of ingredients was absolutely fantastic.

26:22

So I that's the way I

26:24

think

26:24

Chefs' chefs should go -- Mhmm. -- rather

26:27

than too much

26:27

stuff on the plate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

26:29

I mean, if

26:29

it's only a hen's eggs worth of food, they could

26:32

probably put it on a piece of toast. Yeah. I can

26:34

serve to you that. We even okay.

26:37

Let's go back to the baking show. You

26:39

know, the show has is,

26:41

you know, obviously, immensely popular in the UK,

26:43

also here in the States. And I think the people

26:45

who talk about it, the fans of the show, the

26:48

first thing we always say is how

26:50

much it's about the

26:52

feeling. There is this sort

26:54

of positive lovely

26:57

presence, a kindness to the show.

26:59

What's the feeling like onset?

27:00

Exactly that. You know, the

27:02

company makes Bake Off is called Love Productions. Mhmm.

27:05

And my

27:05

husband always says that they're love by name

27:07

and love by nature. Yeah. Some

27:10

of those cameramen have been in the show

27:13

for seventeen years or whatever it is. For

27:15

no.

27:15

What? Fifteen years. Mhmm. For

27:17

since makeup

27:18

started, Most

27:20

of them have been there five years or

27:22

ten years. Nobody leaves because

27:24

it's really lovely. I

27:26

have never heard anybody quarrel

27:29

on that set. Mhmm. Nobody

27:31

getting cross. You know, the

27:33

only time I remember being a little bit

27:35

amazed and finding, you

27:37

know, poor

27:38

eyes rolling to heaven. It

27:40

was when we were filming a

27:42

great American baking show,

27:44

which we're doing, and

27:46

will come out next Mhmm. And that will be

27:49

livestreamed by Roku. Okay.

27:51

And it's all

27:51

American contestants. So I had thought

27:53

it would be

27:55

a little bit more difficult because most of

27:58

the game shows that I've

27:59

seen in America, contestants are

28:02

quite aggressive of Sure.

28:04

There's this famous cliche line of I'm not here to

28:06

make friends. Yeah. There's always someone says, I'm not

28:08

here to make friends. Oh,

28:08

no. Well, that's nonsense. You should be there

28:11

to back then. Anyway, so we were

28:13

filming the American show. And to be

28:15

honest, I'll tell you what the

28:17

atmosphere in the tent. It

28:19

just all those American contestants

28:21

were exactly like the British ones. They were

28:23

supportive. They were they bonded

28:25

well.

28:25

They were absolutely a delight.

28:28

Going back to the the the British

28:30

version, I feel like a lot

28:31

of ways that show those

28:33

notable to

28:33

me when I first started watching it.

28:36

at at first, III like sort of noticed

28:38

this and then a few seasons in. I'm like, oh, this must

28:40

be sort of intentional. I must There's there's a

28:42

there's a philosophy behind And I started to

28:45

think, that the show seems like in the

28:47

casting that it really leans

28:49

into the racial ethnic

28:51

diversity of a contemporary

28:53

really sort of shows this modern idea

28:55

of what Britain is. Right? And it

28:57

is a place of many different cultures.

29:00

And I think there's a lot of people

29:02

who love it for

29:03

that. Yeah. But I think

29:04

we need to talk about Mexican week because

29:06

that just caused quite a stir, and a lot of

29:08

you were so upset by what they

29:11

thought were stereotypical

29:14

jokes or maybe, you know,

29:16

letting on some ignorance. What

29:18

is your thought on that? Well,

29:20

to be honest, I was really

29:21

upset when I saw how much

29:24

distress

29:24

it had caused. Mhmm. Because

29:27

as you say,

29:30

breakoff

29:30

is really proud of the fact that they

29:32

are

29:32

very respectful about.

29:34

I mean,

29:34

when you do somebody else's cuisine,

29:37

it should

29:38

be you're

29:39

doing it because you want to

29:42

celebrate it. Mhmm. And

29:44

because you like it. And so the

29:46

idea that we would be anyway

29:48

patronizing

29:48

or mocked King Or I

29:50

mean, to be

29:51

honest, you

29:53

know, I'm sure if we did it again,

29:56

we would have not

29:57

done it exactly like that because we did

29:59

not

29:59

expect, did not

30:02

imagine for a minute and certainly

30:04

never intended to make

30:07

to be offensive to anybody -- Mhmm. -- because as you

30:09

say, that's not

30:09

the makeup show. And

30:12

and the whole philosophy

30:14

is diversity and

30:16

and

30:16

kindness and tolerance and so

30:19

on. But

30:20

I think There

30:22

are only

30:23

three challenges. So

30:26

we picked probably too

30:29

much of maybe they were too cliched Leith

30:31

the the the takers or the

30:33

whatever. Mhmm.

30:34

But certainly,

30:36

it wasn't we

30:38

have to have something people will recognize as

30:40

as Mexican.

30:41

Mhmm. And I

30:44

think the

30:44

people who were upset felt that

30:47

we weren't celebrating what's happened

30:49

in

30:49

Mexico now and would have much rather,

30:52

we had taken dishes that

30:54

were more interesting,

30:57

more modern whatever.

30:59

So, you know,

31:01

I mean, I'm just I

31:03

know

31:04

everybody felt, god, we did

31:06

not mean to offend anybody. How could

31:08

that have happened? And of course, there's

31:11

the the jokes which

31:13

perhaps were a bit, you know, who certainly

31:15

did cause a bit of a fence. Those

31:19

boys make bad

31:21

jokes all the time. Sure.

31:23

That's what they do. They behave like

31:25

fifteen euros and that's what they

31:28

were doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

31:30

I think think it was

31:31

did you think it was bad.

31:33

You know, I I think

31:35

I

31:38

certainly understand a

31:41

perspective where an opportunity

31:43

to showcase something that,

31:46

you know, take

31:49

this out of, like, how I saw it as a

31:51

viewer as myself. But if I saw this as a

31:53

viewer where, you know, I had an

31:56

emotional or a a

31:58

family connection. Yeah. to Mexican

32:00

culture,

32:00

cuisine. I think probably, you

32:02

know, maybe the you know, my perspective would have

32:04

been something like that. Like, oh, you could have showcased

32:07

less

32:07

stereotypical items or something like

32:10

that. And I think the thing with the jokes

32:12

is it's not so much

32:14

the oh my

32:15

god. They said these horrible things.

32:17

But it's more

32:17

like everyone's having a bit

32:19

of a laugh about how little they know

32:22

about us.

32:24

And

32:26

That just doesn't

32:26

feel nice. So I

32:28

can certainly understand that. On some level,

32:30

I I wonder why this theme was chosen because,

32:32

like, I watch it as an American. And as

32:35

an American, you know, we

32:36

are,

32:37

you know, we're literally close to Mexico and

32:40

Mexican cuisine is so

32:42

influential here. And then I

32:44

think about it the fact that You know, much more

32:46

knowledgeable than Yeah. So, like, there are certain things

32:48

that we we just we just have a different perspective

32:50

on just from proximity and a little bit I was like, oh, if there was

32:52

like an American show and like the theme was like Swiss

32:54

cuisine and everyone's like, I don't know, hey,

32:56

about Swiss cuisine. Like, I sort of

32:58

I sort of I was curious

33:00

as to why that theme was chosen for

33:02

a British show. Well, I mean, we have

33:03

you know, we often do choose

33:06

other nations food -- Mhmm.

33:08

-- just because

33:09

it's more interesting, you know, we

33:11

want to. And generally, it's a celebration, and

33:13

we certainly mean it to be a

33:14

celebration. But Obviously, we've got that one

33:16

of the draw. Yeah.

33:18

But, you know, this is how we

33:20

learn, right, and we move

33:21

on in the future.

33:24

If you if you have one more

33:26

minute, I would love to ask you,

33:29

where did you eat your fashion sense?

33:32

my my obsession with color. I I

33:34

love the big color, colorful

33:37

glasses, big jewelry,

33:40

Do you, like, do you have a sense of why you're

33:42

drawn to those things? Well, I think I

33:44

think

33:44

it may be because I'm South African and

33:47

and land of

33:49

strong color. If you look

33:51

at African jewelry, it's nearly always red,

33:55

green white. Mhmm. Mhmm. So

33:57

African colors. But I've

33:59

always

33:59

liked it, but then when I married my

34:02

husband, you

34:02

know, I'm famous for geriatric

34:05

love. I mean, I fell in I

34:07

fell in love with my husband when

34:09

I was seventy.

34:11

And he

34:13

was

34:13

a fashion designer. So

34:14

he's been very encouraging because

34:17

he's, you know,

34:18

I often put on a pair of earrings

34:20

and I'll say, Is this too much

34:22

or say no, no,

34:24

wear

34:24

a bracelet

34:26

as

34:28

well? Lawson, I I honestly, Francis, I think that too

34:30

many women who get to, you

34:32

know, past middle age

34:34

they think that they somehow

34:36

have to go and sit and sit in it

34:38

in the corner

34:39

or some old fashioned idea of

34:41

how women

34:41

should behave. women will write

34:44

to me and say, you know, I said by you

34:46

because you wear

34:47

these bright colors. I would

34:49

love

34:49

to do that, but and I

34:51

used to my youth but now I feel I

34:53

can't. It's not appropriate. Mhmm. What do you mean it's not appropriate?

34:55

Older women need more help than young ones anyway

34:57

where young women can just look great because they

34:59

are young and they're

35:02

beautiful. I'm trying to

35:03

get older women to realize that

35:05

if they put on a yellow

35:08

coat in

35:08

the middle of winter, it'll cheer them up.

35:11

A caliber is careful.

35:13

Yeah.

35:14

Yeah. Yeah. And it Well, help or not,

35:16

III hear you on on the idea

35:19

of this notion of women as they

35:21

age are told, oh, your time

35:23

to be seen is is gone. Yeah.

35:25

And I love the idea

35:27

of -- Yeah. No. Saying, well, first of all, what I

35:29

what I put on is for me, not necessarily for you.

35:32

Yeah. Yeah. And everyone

35:34

has the right to

35:37

look how

35:37

they want. Absolutely. Look at all them,

35:39

mister Kathy. I love

35:40

that. And I I ended up, you

35:42

know, designing my own specs because

35:44

I couldn't get ones with enough color on them.

35:47

Now, there's lots of colored specks around.

35:49

Well, thank you for bringing your color

35:51

into this room with drab gray studio.

35:53

It is, you know, It's

35:55

it's like hotels, you know. Now hotels are

35:58

all so gray and

36:00

boring.

36:02

Those great talk with you proof.

36:03

Thank you, Frances. I enjoyed it

36:06

a lot.

36:10

Prewleaf

36:12

is a judge on the Great British baking show, and

36:14

author of a new book, Bliss on

36:16

toast. You'd find her recipe for

36:18

tomatoes with English pesto on toasted

36:22

at splendidtable dot org. Coming up,

36:24

another iconic British Cook,

36:26

the incredible Lawson I'm

36:30

Francis Lam, and this is the Splendid

36:32

Table from APM.

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tables' annual Turkey Conference Call and Show on Thanksgiving Day.

37:22

Join us on Thursday, November

37:24

24th with our very special guest,

37:26

Claire Saffitz, Rick

37:28

Martinez, Manit Shahan, and her very own Jesse Sparks,

37:30

host of the one recipe. As we

37:32

answer your questions and conundrums, about

37:35

the cookingest day of the year. We're super excited to

37:38

continue the Turkey confidential tradition of

37:40

helping you think outside the box, Chinese

37:42

flavor combinations, fix a disaster

37:44

or two, and make this Thanksgiving meal,

37:46

one to remember. This year's Turkey

37:48

confidential is presented by

37:50

Victorinox knives and Up Kurian Cutting boards

37:52

in kitchen utensils. Vittorinoximod's

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are reliable companions that combine

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functionality, quality, and innovation

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iconic design. And

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Epicurean products are extremely durable and long lasting Leith

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of paper composite material that's

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in the US. You can

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find Victoria Knox knives and Epicurean boards

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at Sirla tub, and everywhere

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premium kitchen knives and boards

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are sold. I'm Francis

38:20

Lam, and this

38:20

is a show for curious cooks and eaters.

38:23

My general

38:24

lawson needs Lawson no introduction.

38:26

Right? The bridge cooking icon is

38:28

one of the greatest food writers in

38:31

the English language. She starred in many

38:33

TV shows on both sides of the Atlantic. And as the author of her latest

38:36

book, Cook

38:38

Eat Repeat. So the last time joined

38:40

us a few years ago, she defended

38:42

the honor of home cooking and in

38:44

her latest book. She writes about her

38:47

love simple ingredients and how cooking becomes a part

38:49

of life. Night Geller, it is

38:51

so great to see you. Thanks for

38:54

coming in. It's so

38:56

wonderful to see you. It

38:57

just feels like such a celebration

38:59

to be able to do this face

39:01

to face.

39:01

Yeah. Absolutely. And thank you for coming to

39:04

our country. such

39:06

pleasure. And thank you for writing

39:08

this book. It's truly a beautiful read.

39:10

I mean, it's it's an interesting cookbook because it's

39:12

It's almost more, I might say, a collection of essays

39:14

and stories as it is recipes, although there are

39:16

many, many recipes in it. And, you

39:20

know, as a as a writer, as an editor reading, it is such a pleasure.

39:22

Like, no one describes food the way you do.

39:24

Well, thank you. I mean,

39:25

I think that you

39:27

know, a cookbook can take many

39:30

forms.

39:30

Sure.

39:31

And we all need to find a

39:34

way to to bring not

39:36

only the recipes be

39:37

right, but perhaps also

39:38

to explain something of

39:40

the sensibility. Mhmm. And it

39:43

has to be our voice. You know, we all

39:45

have our own

39:46

voice, and it's so important that

39:48

a cookbook has a voice.

39:51

Sure. Yeah. And that

39:52

can be so varied and in a way you don't

39:54

want this sort of right feeling

39:57

of every cookbook sounding

39:59

the like

40:00

another one. Sure. And and I and that's one

40:02

of the things that so interest me about

40:04

writing about food.

40:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, this

40:07

is your twelfth book.

40:10

And, you know, so you you've you've done it plenty.

40:12

It's always

40:13

frightening. Is it?

40:15

Well,

40:16

to some extent,

40:18

Most things that are worth doing are a bit frightening. Sure.

40:21

And I think that

40:23

the more books you do, the harder

40:25

it

40:25

is in terms of recipes. because

40:28

you don't ever I don't ever wanna put a recipe in just for

40:30

the sake of having a recipe. Sure. But

40:33

I

40:33

think that certain

40:36

things do make you nervous, but that's also

40:38

what

40:39

hones your focus.

40:43

And was it

40:45

Eleanor Roosevelt who said

40:48

you have to do one thing that

40:50

frightens you

40:52

every day And I think that to some extent, you can't

40:54

expect to take on something

40:56

that you feel so heartfelt about

40:58

and to feel casual about it, that would

41:00

be disastrous. So

41:02

I I don't mean, you know, I was

41:04

handicapped by fear. But

41:06

I certainly there's

41:08

always that fear

41:08

when you start a book.

41:10

Yeah. Am I

41:11

gonna be able to do it? But I think

41:13

the before doing anything

41:14

is difficult. Sure.

41:15

I love it when I'm writing, but it

41:18

can take me quite

41:20

a lot to propel myself into

41:22

the chair by

41:23

the computer. It's funny

41:25

I have a a friend whose father

41:27

always had that adage. the hardest part

41:29

of any of any project is

41:32

actually getting into the chair. Yes.

41:34

And that's so true for

41:36

everything, really. Well, since

41:36

we're talking about this book and this

41:39

idea of recipes, you start this book actually

41:41

with an essay that asked the question,

41:43

what is a recipe?

41:46

having again written out twelve cookbooks, what

41:48

do you mean by asking that question? Well,

41:50

I

41:50

think how people have

41:53

viewed the recipe does

41:54

change as fashions

41:56

for cooking and the age we

41:58

live in. Mhmm. So so if you

41:59

would go far back

42:02

in time, you would be unlikely

42:04

to find measurements all the time. True. It

42:05

would be take some butter, you

42:06

know, mix it to

42:08

a paste with some flour.

42:10

Mhmm. So

42:12

that's what a recipe would have been

42:15

thought of then. Sure. And then you get

42:17

the sort of recipes which

42:20

are now very, very detailed.

42:22

I mean, a recipe can take many forms, but

42:24

a recipe that is very, very detailed

42:27

and gives absolutely

42:30

everything, but from a more technical

42:32

point of view without somehow trying to evoke

42:34

what

42:35

the recipe

42:36

might appeal

42:39

to

42:39

in a person or why it's there. And then a recipe

42:41

to certain extent could be something

42:43

of a literary endeavor because you're

42:45

trying to use language to

42:48

allow the reader to

42:52

have sensation of what it might

42:54

feel like either to

42:56

roll that

42:58

dough out. or the smell of

43:00

a stew as you

43:02

add some phenyl seeds or so? Yeah.

43:04

Yeah. Yeah. For me, I think

43:06

it's about taking people away both to enjoy the

43:08

lingering on the page, but you have to be able to the

43:10

the reader has somehow

43:14

to feel she or he in the

43:16

kitchen -- Yeah.

43:17

-- while they're reading it, and

43:18

it makes them more likely to go there. I

43:21

think as a straddle many disciplines, But

43:24

for me also, cooking or therefore, the recipe

43:27

form is also takes

43:30

in anthropology.

43:32

and it takes in social history

43:34

and the movement of people. And

43:36

so there's so much going on.

43:40

in a recipe. It's so interesting to see all these different components,

43:42

and it's the dynamic between

43:46

all those disciplines,

43:48

if you like -- Mhmm. -- that makes

43:51

makes recipes. So

43:53

for me, enjoyingly,

43:55

interesting and from different perspectives.

43:58

Yeah. Yeah. I mean but that's all we're

43:59

in good. Having said all these things,

44:02

that's true. but Leith recipe also has to be a hundred percent

44:04

reliable, and it has to

44:06

aid the reader. And I would

44:08

say furthermore, in an

44:10

ideal world, like

44:12

to think when I wrote a recipe that although

44:14

I am giving the

44:17

reader you

44:19

know, very clear instructions.

44:22

I

44:22

would hope also that

44:25

I'm also imparting just something about the nature of

44:27

cooking itself. Mhmm. It's difficult to get the balance

44:30

right. Yeah. And to get

44:31

the balance right

44:32

while not

44:35

writing a book that's

44:37

heavier than, you know, than a

44:39

suitcase of beer. But nevertheless, I

44:41

I try. I I try

44:43

but think brevity is not always an

44:46

indication of ease, you know, that there's

44:48

such a fashion in

44:50

QuickBooks that most dentures

44:52

want want people. I understand

44:54

this not to have to turn a page when they're

44:56

following a recipe. And yet, I

44:58

feel

44:59

sometimes when

45:00

a recipe is is

45:02

sort of written to that prescriptive

45:04

model regardless what

45:08

the recipe is. It can mean you leave out

45:10

the sort

45:11

of markers you

45:13

could be

45:14

offering your readers about

45:16

not to say give it twenty minutes, but

45:18

you want to say by which time

45:20

it will have slightly begun coming

45:22

away at the sides of the pan and may begin splitting on

45:25

top. If you haven't got time

45:27

to add the details, I

45:30

think it's it it makes

45:30

it harder for the cook even though it might make

45:32

it nice and neat and clear

45:34

on the

45:35

page. I totally I totally understand

45:37

what you're saying. Both

45:39

as someone who has written recipes in the past and now was an

45:41

editor where I added, you know, literally hundreds of

45:43

them at a time for cookbooks. But you

45:45

know what made me really, really hyper aware

45:48

of that was a few days

45:50

ago, this was so

45:52

sweet. My my child who's

45:54

in second grade -- Yeah. -- her

45:56

teacher came to me

45:58

and said, hey, would you like to come in one day and do a little cooking class

45:59

for our kids? And I thought, oh, that'd be

46:02

so fun. And I came

46:04

in and it was Halloween.

46:06

So, you know, the kids are gonna be

46:08

eating just ungodly amounts of candy. And how do

46:10

I come in and I'll show you how to make

46:13

roasted broccoli. Yes. because my kid

46:15

really loves roasted broccoli and maybe some of the kids

46:17

in the basketball too, and been a nice nice way to, you

46:19

know, get kids eat vegetables that day.

46:21

So she's sure. It was actually amazing.

46:23

I was shocked at how many of the kids in

46:25

the class. Love Broadway. That was

46:28

amazing. But I also wanna make sure that I had a written recipe for the

46:30

kids to take home if they want to make it, you know,

46:32

with -- Yes. -- with their grown ups at home or

46:34

whatever. And I did exactly what you

46:36

were

46:36

thinking of, which is I

46:39

wanted to make sure there was detail. You really explain it. Assuming

46:41

that the child knows nothing of cooking --

46:43

Yes. -- this is how you would cut it. How big

46:45

should it be? I

46:48

like to my fingers for this, but you can use a knife. Gross it till it like

46:50

this. Move it on the pan, so it's all

46:52

in one layer, so it doesn't look crowded

46:54

like And

46:57

I did that with the spirit of, let

46:59

me tell you everything you would need to

47:01

know to make this in case you never made

47:03

this before. So Leith simplify it. And then

47:05

I printed it out. And I realized

47:07

I had an entire sheet of paper, entirely covered in words.

47:09

And I'm going to hand a seven

47:11

year old, the level in

47:14

intimidation to

47:16

see that much, you know, language on a page. And then people think

47:18

this must

47:19

be so complicated. Exactly. It's a very

47:21

it's a conundrum, actually. It's it's very hard

47:23

to get

47:24

right

47:26

Did you in the end make

47:27

it much finer? Did you No. I just we

47:30

just went with it. We just figured

47:34

that Well, it was

47:35

time to go to school. So Yeah. Yeah. And you do

47:37

have a job, you know.

47:40

Yeah. Yes. Okay. So actually,

47:42

let's get to one of the recipes in this

47:44

book. It's funny for

47:46

me to say the recipes in the book because

47:48

it's again,

47:49

it's such a fascinating

47:52

read, and their recipe is in the traditional

47:54

style of ingredient list -- Yeah. --

47:56

method. But then in the headnote to that recipe, you'll have other recipes

47:58

that It's so many. It's like a stream

47:59

of color and consciousness.

48:02

But I wanna get to one of the dishes in

48:04

particular because

48:06

I I'm so drawn to it. And it's the smoky squid and

48:08

beans, which has such a, like, a mysterious cool

48:10

ring to it. But it's it seems very

48:12

simple. Right? It just seems like you

48:15

warm up olive oil with some

48:17

smoked paprika, a little bit

48:19

of chili, and you warm up some canned beans

48:21

in that. Yeah. And you just sort

48:23

of saute

48:24

some squid and you're

48:26

kinda done.

48:26

Oh, yes. Well,

48:27

I wanted to talk about, you

48:29

know, the sort of food I rust a

48:31

lot for myself often when I

48:34

just want something delicious.

48:36

And I might not have a lot of time.

48:37

And I don't think cooking needs to

48:39

be complicated to have actually

48:42

quite complex

48:43

flavors. Sure. Various

48:45

things came to me about

48:47

this recipe. And I suppose

48:48

what led me to it

48:51

really was the love of smoked

48:52

paprika. Mhmm. And I'm always

48:54

looking for ways to use it. Mhmm. So

48:56

this is a digital. I just felt

49:00

like saying that a recipe doesn't have to involve three hours of your

49:02

time to warrant your

49:04

attention. Mhmm. How's this? You cook a bit

49:06

of squid not

49:08

too much. Walt through the beans

49:10

later. It's all in one. Can beans. Yes. Can beans.

49:12

And then I use sherry.

49:14

for

49:16

it. I use a Montecado with any dry

49:18

sherry. And what I find

49:21

that does

49:21

is it

49:24

helps tenderize the squid. By the way, I should

49:26

say, if people who don't want alcohol,

49:28

you could easily do Instead

49:32

of the cherry, you could easily do lemon juice or orange juice or

49:34

a mixture of lemon or orange juice. Lawson.

49:37

Fantastic in savory

49:39

cooking, I think. So then rinsing your beans. Just

49:41

rinse the beans. So I

49:42

have I mean, you have to move quite

49:44

fast. So I get a bowl that

49:46

I get the beans waiting.

49:49

then so I use something that's sort of wok

49:52

shaped but also has a

49:54

lid. Okay. So

49:55

you use good

49:58

olive oil. for this when you do it because it's not gonna get

49:59

incredibly hot and it's part of the

50:02

dressing. Yeah. And then I

50:04

always like a bit of lemon Again,

50:06

you could

50:07

use orange cyst.

50:08

And now I

50:10

use some red pepper

50:12

flakes. and sweet smoked

50:14

paprika. Now, of course, anyone

50:16

could change the

50:17

amount they use. Some people might want a

50:19

really fiery dish some people might

50:21

just want it to have

50:24

warmth

50:24

and the little pinprick of heat.

50:26

And so that I just cook

50:28

for a while. There's

50:29

nothing much else going on. I'm not doing

50:31

onions or anything like that. but I

50:33

do use a bit of tomato paste. Okay? I cook it for a minute or

50:35

so, then the beans go in.

50:37

Mhmm. And then

50:40

the oil is quite red by then from the paprika and

50:42

It's made up here. And, yes, but it's even reded

50:44

before a bit, you know, chilly. Mhmm. Does

50:46

that. But now it's much red sort

50:49

of orangey red. And

50:52

you might need to add more water.

50:54

You don't want them to cook dry

50:57

and sticky. and I cook them with a very low

51:00

heat with a lid, and they're quite

51:02

big about it

51:02

being so you want them to be warm

51:05

all the way through.

51:06

So then I tip those out because it's not the squid won't take very

51:08

long and I'd rather make the beans wait than

51:10

the squid. And then as there's a

51:12

bit more oil, some more pepper flakes,

51:15

and then I go a bit high. And then

51:18

because the

51:19

squid's been in the sherry oil that's

51:21

due. So I squeeze that out, so it's not too

51:23

wet when it goes in the oil because

51:25

otherwise, it'll spit all over you.

51:27

And then I just carry

51:30

on cooking them just

51:31

so they have just in

51:33

till through a no pig. You don't want to

51:36

overcook

51:36

them. Yeah. And then

51:38

because I don't wanna waste

51:40

it. Or the sherry or the

51:42

lemon or orange juice you have in your dish. I pour at the very

51:44

end when they're cooked through. And

51:47

then I just, you know, mix

51:49

them with the beans

51:52

and And then, of course, I might think I need

51:54

more lemon or salt, but of course,

51:55

everyone will

51:58

do what they

51:59

want. Sure. There isn't a

52:02

right

52:02

or wrong. I think if I had to say

52:04

that I think that American

52:06

cookbooks sometimes can be much

52:10

more absolute. Yeah.

52:12

And I feel I come from a land

52:14

of equivocation. What do you think? That's me.

52:17

That's me. but you have to bring yourself to the digital.

52:19

It is a collaboration between the ingredients

52:21

and the person putting

52:24

them in in

52:24

a pan. And so I think at all times you have to trust your palate. Yeah. And

52:26

I think that makes people enjoy cooking more too

52:28

because it's not about is

52:29

this gonna go right

52:32

or wrong. It's like,

52:33

do I want it to taste like that? Or do

52:35

I want it to be sharper? Right.

52:38

Well, it's

52:38

funny because, you know, you have this really lovely

52:40

line in the book where you say recipes as

52:42

formulas, but you think of them as

52:45

a conversation. Yes. I think

52:47

of

52:47

them as a conversation. I

52:49

think of them also as

52:51

quite

52:51

an autobiographical form --

52:54

Mhmm.

52:54

-- because in a way, you're telling the story

52:56

of food that plays a

52:57

part in your life. Yeah. And but

52:59

you're also really giving

53:00

you an account of what it feels like to be cooking it. But it is

53:03

a story, it's a conversation, and

53:05

the the difficulty is I

53:08

can't hear the answer with the person at home. We put it in a way because

53:10

of social media and things like that.

53:12

You can continue the

53:15

conversation Yeah. On I

53:17

made this bonus instead. Yes. Always love it. ask. And I'm

53:19

on I can't cope with all forms

53:21

of social media. Although I'm on all of them Leith

53:23

I post and I did

53:26

it myself. And now I love it because

53:28

often I get someone will say, for example, you know, I I didn't

53:30

have the squid and I decided

53:34

to use some, you know, bit of tuna, marinette well, actually, you

53:36

know, tuna and beans is has a

53:38

very, you know, has a very

53:40

noble

53:40

tradition. Yeah. And that's good

53:42

to So

53:44

I it's lovely having the I think the sort

53:46

of cross pollination of ideas. Yeah.

53:48

Yeah. That's what

53:49

we all love. Those of

53:51

us

53:51

who love food. We love it when

53:53

we chat to one another, and I really value that. Yeah. Well, like the

53:55

people

53:55

at Twitter, I'm sure. Mhmm. It was a pleasure

53:58

talking with you, Nigella. so I

53:59

love you talk to you. Thank

54:01

you so much for

54:03

coming. Anytime, and I hope you know, I

54:05

really mean Leith, but not in

54:07

a threatening one.

54:12

Magoa Lawson's

54:12

latest book is Cook Eat

54:14

Repeat. You can find that recipe

54:17

for Spokie squid and beans

54:20

spendatable dot org. And I have to tell you, I made it for dinner last

54:22

night, but I made three different alterations. That's

54:24

kind of part of the deal, and

54:27

it was terrific. Anyway,

54:30

those are show for today. Talk to you next

54:32

week. APM Studios are

54:34

run

54:34

by Chandra Kavadi, Alex Schaffert, and

54:38

Joanne Griffith. Beth Perlman, our executive producer, and the Splendid table was

54:40

created by Swift and Glen Rosetta

54:42

Casper. It's made every week by

54:44

technical Jennifer

54:46

Lucas producer Erica Romero, digital producer

54:48

James Napoli and managing producer, Sally

54:51

Swift. Additional thanks Leith Gary

54:53

O'Keefe, and Mark replaced as New

54:56

York Bureau on Francis Lam, and this is APM

54:58

Studios. Our show is

54:59

supported by

55:01

Sierra Nevada Brewing Company. and

55:03

their executive chef Jesse Massey is here with us for the

55:05

craft beer inspired recipe. Hey, chef. What do

55:08

you got today? Hi,

55:09

Francis. Today, I have

55:11

a celebration IPA chocolate

55:12

tart. Oh, right on. Celebration IPA season is

55:14

a really magical time at the brewery here.

55:16

We toast the season each year with

55:20

celebration It's been around at the breweries

55:22

since nineteen eighty one, and it's really

55:24

popular. It's layered with citrus

55:26

and rich sweet malt notes, which pair

55:28

really nicely with the bitterness of the chocolate -- Yeah. -- and accentuates the citrus

55:31

zest in the crust. Then I add

55:33

a little ginger, crystallized ginger in it

55:35

to tie it all

55:38

off. that sounds

55:38

super good. Would I get the full recipe for

55:40

the celebration IPA Chocolate

55:42

tart from Sierra Nevada Brewing Company

55:45

Visit splendidtable dot org slash Sierra

55:47

Nevada and check out all the recipes we featured from

55:49

them this year.