0:00

Support comes from Dishing on Julia,

0:02

the official companion podcast to the

0:04

Max original series, Julia. Julia

0:06

is back for a second season only on

0:09

Max. This captivating series is

0:11

inspired by Julia Child's extraordinary life

0:14

and her groundbreaking TV show, The French Chef,

0:16

which paved the way for all of food

0:18

TV today. But it's about

0:20

more than just food. Join host Carrie

0:23

Diamond of Cherry Bomb each week as

0:25

she dives into the details of both

0:27

the show and Julia Child's influence on

0:29

food, media, and how we eat. Listen

0:32

to Dishing on Julia, the official Julia

0:34

companion podcast on Max, wherever you get

0:36

your podcasts. And stream

0:38

new episodes of Julia Thursdays on

0:40

Max. I'm

0:43

Francis Lam, and this is The Splendid Table from

0:45

APM. You

0:55

know, we romanticize food a

0:57

lot. We reminisce about

0:59

meals we've had, like their major milestones,

1:02

and some of us make how much

1:04

we like to eat, like our whole personality. But

1:07

when you're just living your life, sometimes

1:09

food is a huge deal, and it needs to be.

1:12

And sometimes it's no big deal, and

1:14

sometimes that's what it needs to be.

1:17

On today's show, we have two wonderful

1:19

food writers who tell us

1:21

about how their outlook on food changed

1:24

because of a moment or

1:26

a dish that just demanded it. The

1:29

Swiss-American writer Sylvie Bigard takes us

1:31

into the world of cassoulet, a

1:34

simple meat and bean stew that is

1:36

the subject of ferocious national debate in

1:38

France, and that has

1:40

been her own personal decades-long obsession.

1:44

And we also have the British food

1:47

historian Bea Wilson. Bea

1:49

is a gorgeous writer, with an

1:51

inspiring knack for finding the most

1:53

interesting things about stuff you may

1:55

have never thought twice about. She wrote a

1:57

history of the fork, for instance. She's written a history of

1:59

the egg. history of counterfeit food, she's written about

2:01

how we learn to eat. But

2:04

now, she's out with a

2:06

cookbook called The Secret of Cooking, recipes

2:08

for an easier life in the kitchen.

2:11

And yes, it's about secret tips and tricks, but

2:14

also about so much more. Hi,

2:16

Bee. Thank you for joining us. Hi,

2:19

Francis. It's a joy to talk to you. The

2:21

same, the same. So I'm so excited about

2:24

your book. You have long been

2:26

a food writer, a food

2:28

historian, really. You've written many books, but

2:30

never actually a cookbook. And

2:33

I was so excited to see how you'd approach it. And sure

2:36

enough, in classic Bee Wilson style, it

2:38

starts by quoting a recipe from the 1500s. Not

2:43

that we need to make it, but I

2:45

also thought this was so interesting because

2:47

you write that before there were cookbooks,

2:50

as we know them, hundreds of

2:52

years ago, there were, there were recipe

2:54

books, but they were called Books of

2:56

Secrets. So what

2:58

were they? Yeah,

3:00

so it wasn't so much that they were

3:02

recipe books, but that this is where recipes

3:04

would probably find themselves. So a

3:07

Book of Secrets might combine anything

3:09

from a cure for baldness

3:11

to here is a way to

3:13

soothe tired feet, to

3:16

remedies against the plague, to a really delicious

3:18

recipe for a tart or a jam or

3:20

a preserve. And

3:23

what I really liked about this thought is that

3:26

in those days, recipes were seen

3:28

as remedies. But the more

3:30

I thought about it, the more I thought, they're still

3:32

remedies. They're still something. I mean, I know I love

3:35

the cookbooks in my house and as much

3:38

to read as to cook from, I go

3:40

to them for comfort. I do go to

3:42

them when, you know, the world is a sad, cold,

3:44

difficult place often. Never more

3:46

so perhaps than now. And

3:49

a recipe, it gives you a

3:51

sense of a happy ending. So I kind of love

3:54

this thought that people

3:56

had always thought that recipes were sort of something

3:59

that you would take. can feel better, almost

4:02

medicinal, but then it's a

4:04

kind of emotional thing and it's an emotional

4:06

thing from the beginning. Yeah, yeah,

4:08

yeah. I do agree that

4:10

the world can be very hard and sad right

4:13

now, but I at

4:15

the risk of sounding too glib about this, I think one thing we

4:17

can say about our world is probably a little bit less hard and

4:19

sad now, no matter how bad it gets than it was in the

4:21

1500s. Yeah, I mean,

4:24

pretty rough back then. Pretty

4:27

rough back then. Yeah, I'm

4:29

not having to worry about plague, so that's good. But

4:33

so coming to your book, which is the

4:36

secret of cooking, so I think

4:39

you've used that word intentionally. How

4:41

do you think of your book as sort of a

4:43

modern day book of secrets? Well,

4:46

so I knew this thing about books of

4:48

secrets and then I actually this is really

4:50

unusual for me. Every other book, I'm usually

4:52

terrible at thinking up titles and

4:54

the title will come last to me. I'll do the

4:56

entire project and go through a bunch

4:59

of terrible titles and then the right title

5:01

appears. This was the opposite. I

5:03

thought of the phrase. I knew the thing about

5:05

books of secrets. I thought of the phrase the

5:07

secret of cooking and I thought, but surely someone's

5:09

used that title before. And

5:12

to my amazement, I found they hadn't. And

5:15

then I kind of had weeks or

5:17

months of just doubting myself thinking, well, I can't use

5:19

this. I don't know what the secret of cooking is. And

5:22

then suddenly I thought of the second half of

5:24

the sentence, which is the secret of cooking is

5:26

the person who cooks. And

5:28

the more I thought about this, the more

5:30

I thought I couldn't actually think of a

5:33

counter example where that wasn't true. And

5:35

it gave me what felt to me like a

5:38

perfect framing device for the book that I kind

5:40

of wanted to write anyway, which is cooking

5:43

for all these different phases and moments

5:45

of life like cooking when you're alone

5:47

and cooking when you're cooking for kids

5:49

and you're having to take account of all

5:51

of these different preferences and many

5:54

forms of pickiness or just

5:56

cooking when you're kind of busy and

5:58

tired and overloaded, which. covers most

6:00

of us most of the time. Mm-hmm. And

6:04

so how did you approach actually writing it?

6:06

Because as you say, if it's the person

6:08

cooking, and you certainly don't present yourself

6:10

as the ultimate font

6:12

of knowledge, the

6:16

book draws on things you've read, things you've heard, things

6:18

you've learned, and you're sharing them with us now. How

6:21

did you think to capture those things?

6:24

Or how did you go out and find these

6:27

secrets and these pieces of advice?

6:30

I mean, I've been cooking all my life. I've kind

6:32

of been dreaming of writing this book since I

6:34

was a child sitting at the kitchen table. So

6:36

in a way, this is

6:39

also the only book where I panned it

6:41

in massively over word length because I forgot

6:43

that recipes would take up words. So

6:46

I did many, too many words and I had

6:48

to cut it down. So

6:51

in a way, it just poured out of me. But my

6:53

sense of the book I wanted to write

6:55

was, I kind of wrote it for myself and I wrote

6:57

it for so many of my friends, for

7:00

people who in the perfect circumstances,

7:02

I love to cook if you have a

7:04

free day and somebody else

7:06

has maybe gone to the farmer's market and stocked

7:08

your fridge for you, but when does that ever happen? And

7:11

there's no pressure, and you're maybe cooking

7:13

for people who are not picky and have

7:15

no dietary requirements. What a joy it

7:18

would be. I mean, I just kept coming back to the thought

7:20

that when I was a child,

7:22

cooking felt like a kind of fun sensory

7:24

game when no one loses. And

7:27

yet in the hurlie-burly of modern

7:30

life, and I find this more the older I

7:32

get, it so often doesn't

7:34

feel like a joy. It feels like yet another thing

7:36

on the to-do list and something we kind of berate

7:38

ourselves for and we feel like we come up short.

7:41

So in terms of structuring it, I

7:44

just kept thinking, what are the

7:46

obstacles that hold someone back from cooking,

7:48

even someone like me who's been a

7:50

food writer for years

7:53

and years, but sometimes it didn't feel

7:55

like such a joy and I wanted to figure out

7:58

ways that could help people. get

8:01

back to it being a joy and not

8:03

a drag. So that was sort of my structure advice.

8:05

And as you say, I devised, as I say,

8:07

I kind of thought out cooking

8:10

secrets from everyone I came

8:12

across. Because I think this is one of the beautiful things

8:14

about cooking that many of us

8:16

think, oh, I'm just stuck in a rut. But

8:19

one person's rut can be somebody else's

8:21

inspiring new idea. Mmm, yeah, I love

8:24

the idea. There's a reason why

8:26

you keep going back to it over and over again. Yeah,

8:28

exactly. Yeah. Um,

8:31

so the book is structured, you know, it's

8:33

chock full of recipes, as you say, but it, you

8:35

know, I love that isn't structured in this typical way,

8:38

like appetizers, mains, desserts, or whatever. But

8:41

rather into these chapters that are all about sort

8:43

of areas of advice. There's

8:46

one called Finding the Missing Element, which is, you know,

8:48

as in when people say like, Oh, this dish is

8:50

missing something. And so it's, you know,

8:52

that whole chapter is sort of a conversation about, well, how

8:54

do you find what is missing, what sort of seasoning or

8:56

whatever. And there's another one, you know,

8:58

about falling in love with your tools. And

9:02

this is great, because this all sounds very

9:04

sort of can sound very

9:06

high level and abstract, but you basically have

9:08

an entire chapter devoted to how passionate you

9:10

are about your box grader. It is

9:13

very, it is very real and

9:15

it is very down to it. It's maybe a bit

9:17

niche. But I really do

9:19

love my box grader. I mean, actually, it's a subsection

9:21

of the chapter you just mentioned, which is called something

9:24

like use the tools you have

9:26

and get the tools you need. And

9:28

my thought there was that I increasingly

9:31

feel you should mistrust anyone who says

9:33

you can't be a great cook if you don't have a bunch

9:35

of expensive gadgets. Because if

9:37

you look at the great traditional cooks

9:40

around the world, whether it's India, China,

9:42

France, anywhere, they didn't have a

9:44

load of tools, they kind of got by with some

9:47

kind of great cutting device aboard

9:49

a few grinding tools, maybe

9:51

a few versions of sieves or colanders, and

9:54

a few pots, and they made the most

9:56

extraordinary food. And I'm not saying

9:58

that once we have electricity in our kitchen

10:00

so we should go back. I also am

10:02

totally in favor of embracing the food processor

10:05

and the handheld blender and all of those things because

10:08

if you can save time and save labour,

10:10

why not? And I'm devoted

10:12

to all sorts of electric

10:14

devices in my kitchen. But

10:16

the box grater, I just suddenly thought there

10:19

are all of these neglected utensils, which are

10:21

so great. And we just take them for

10:24

granted. And the box grater, when

10:26

you just stop and look at it with fresh eyes,

10:28

it's like a miracle machine. It does the work of

10:32

100 small knives all at once.

10:34

And it does it without any electricity.

10:37

And it is incredibly affordable to buy.

10:39

And if you don't even want to buy one new,

10:41

you can probably pick one up in a yard sale.

10:43

Sure. And I love it. And it's just

10:45

that sense as well that

10:47

all my favorite kitchen utensils have that it's

10:50

like an old friend. When you kind of pick

10:53

it up out of your drawer, it just

10:55

feels like, oh, yes, here you are again. And you're kind

10:57

of holding on to it in the same way that

10:59

you hold on to a wooden spoon. I love

11:02

my box grater. So yeah, I wrote, as you

11:04

say, maybe overkill. But I just

11:06

suddenly thought, what are all the great things I

11:08

make with it? And I make zucchini fritters. And

11:10

that's a recipe I was really pleased and proud

11:12

with because I also figured out, I'm

11:15

sure it's not original to me, but it was new to me when

11:17

I thought of it. But instead of frying

11:19

them, you could make them in the oven and they

11:21

come out just as crispy and delicious, but you're not

11:24

kind of standing there watching as some

11:26

of them burn and some of them come out undercooked.

11:30

Yeah, or grated tomato and butter pasta sauces

11:32

is another of my favorite things. Yeah,

11:34

talk about that. The grating tomato, I think is

11:36

maybe new to people because that is something that

11:39

I know, you know, wonderful

11:41

professional cooks who are absolutely

11:43

devoted to grating tomatoes. Not

11:45

everyone does that. So tell us about

11:48

grating tomatoes. Yeah, I think it's

11:50

becoming a thing because I noticed in the

11:52

latest Otolengi book, they were writing about

11:54

grating tomato too. So but in

11:56

a sense, I might say this is ridiculous

11:58

to say it's some new hip

12:00

viral internet sensation because obviously grandmothers have

12:03

been doing this for decades, but it

12:05

was new to me. I only latched

12:07

onto it a couple of years ago.

12:09

A lot of people, when I

12:11

mention it, can say, but surely tomato is too soft

12:13

to grate. You associate

12:15

grating vegetables with those hard

12:18

root vegetables, which go so neatly

12:20

into strands. But actually, the

12:22

fact that the tomato is soft is what's so

12:24

beautiful about grating it because you grate

12:27

it and slowly what happens is that the

12:30

flesh goes through and becomes this

12:32

beautiful silky pulp. And

12:34

meanwhile, the skin just kind of remains in

12:37

your hand and you can save it for

12:39

making stock or anything you like or just compost

12:41

it if you don't have time to make stock.

12:44

And you have the makings of an

12:46

instant, near instant, absolutely

12:48

delicious pasta sauce if you just add

12:51

a lot of garlic, which you can then grate

12:53

on the fine side of the box and grate

12:55

it. Butter, I add a pinch of

12:58

chili flakes, salt, basil at the end,

13:01

optional. Obviously, you could add any herb you like.

13:04

So good. And you don't even

13:06

have to make the pasta sauce. I mean, you could just

13:08

stop with a beautiful pulp and make it into a

13:10

kind of Spanish pan con tomato, have

13:12

it on toast with a bit of garlic

13:15

rubbed on, which is so good. Oh, I

13:17

love that. Yeah, just season that tomato pulp,

13:19

olive oil, salt. Lots of olive oil.

13:21

And then if you take the garlic, yeah,

13:24

you take the garlic and rub it on

13:26

the crags, which was something I've known about

13:28

forever. I've read about that forever. And it just seems

13:30

so goofy, you know, not having done it myself. The first

13:32

time before I ever did it, I was like, you

13:35

take you literally take a clove of garlic and you rub it

13:37

on bread. Like, what's that going

13:39

to do? But actually, when you do it, it's magical.

13:42

It's amazing, isn't it? That's another of those simple

13:44

things. Yeah, I remember that one thinking, hang

13:47

on, how is the flavor even going

13:49

to transmit itself? And it totally does.

13:51

It's deep, isn't it? And I think

13:53

there's something about the heat of the

13:55

toast that just somehow must very mildly

13:58

activate those volatile orations. in the garlic. That's

14:04

B. Wilson, author of The Secret of

14:06

Cooking. More with her in a minute,

14:08

and then it's Sylvie Begar, author of

14:11

Castille Confessions. I'm Francis Lamb,

14:13

and this is The Splendid Table from APM. Our

14:20

show is supported by Victorinox, maker of

14:22

the original Swiss army knife. Synonymous

14:25

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in the thick of the holiday season and there

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is still so much more eating and celebrating to

14:57

do. Tune in to the

14:59

One Recipes Holiday Special, sponsored by Victorinox, where

15:02

you'll hear from host Jesse Sparks and guests

15:04

as they dish on their tips and tricks

15:06

to make your holidays merry and bright. And

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remember, now is the perfect time to celebrate

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knives at Macy's, Dillard's, and everywhere

15:21

premium kitchen knives are sold. Support

15:24

comes from dishing on Julia, the official

15:26

companion podcast, to the Max original

15:28

series, Julia. Get

15:30

ready to dive back into the world

15:32

of culinary legend Julia Child, because Julia

15:34

is back for a second season, only

15:36

on Max. This captivating

15:38

series is inspired by Julia Child's

15:41

extraordinary life and her groundbreaking

15:43

television series, The French Chef, which paved the

15:45

way for all of food TV today. And

15:48

dishing on Julia is the official companion

15:50

podcast, offering a deeper look into this

15:52

culinary icon's life. Join host

15:54

Carrie Diamond of Cherry Bomb as she speaks

15:57

with culinary superstars like famed chef

15:59

Eric Ripert and Smitten Kitchen's Dan

16:01

Pearlman, who share their perspective on,

16:03

and personal connection to, Julia Child.

16:06

Dishing on Julia also takes you behind

16:08

the scenes with the show's producers, creators,

16:10

and crew to unpack every episode and

16:12

explore the making of the series. Listen

16:15

to Dishing on Julia, the official Julia

16:17

Companion podcast on Max, or wherever you

16:20

get your podcasts, and stream new episodes

16:22

of Julia Thursdays on Max. I'm

16:29

Francis Lamb, and this is the show for curious

16:31

pizza eaters. We're talking today about how

16:33

the secrets to cooking can be found all

16:35

around you. Let's get back to it with

16:37

food writer, Dee Bosen. What

16:41

else do you love about your box creator that we may have not thought of?

16:44

So actually, I have another recipe there

16:46

which is called Kim's Geosas, which is

16:48

named after a friend of mine who, among

16:51

many other things, teaches cookery

16:53

to children. I was chatting

16:55

to her one day, and she said that she'd just

16:57

been teaching these young kids to make geosas. It kind

16:59

of made me feel ... It gave

17:01

me almost an inferiority complex, because I was

17:03

thinking, I've never made geosas, and these kids

17:05

are making them, and how is it so

17:07

easy? She said, oh, I just use a

17:09

box creator. It was her

17:11

secret of how you can make the filling incredibly

17:14

quickly. Sure enough,

17:16

I tried it. The recipe there, I

17:18

think it's carrots, some mushrooms. It

17:20

is much more autumnal or wintry.

17:24

You can adapt that. I

17:26

love Hetty McKinnon's books, and

17:29

in one of her books, she just has a

17:31

whole array of different

17:33

vegetable dumplings. I

17:35

tried some of those and adapted them to

17:37

my basic geosa formula, and I thought, oh,

17:39

yeah, this is kind of one of those

17:41

infinitely adaptable things. It's

17:45

amazing, again, that I would never

17:47

have thought really to great mushrooms. I know great

17:49

mushrooms a lot. I

17:51

have another recipe in the book for that

17:53

kind of all-in-one pasta that has also become

17:56

a thing where instead of boiling the pasta separately

17:58

and then adding it to the pasta, to

18:00

the source, you just dump everything into the

18:02

pan and you think this is never going to work. I

18:07

believe you because I have faith in you, but I

18:09

cannot believe you. It really,

18:11

really does. So

18:13

the mushroom one, it's one of my

18:15

one-person recipes in the book. And

18:20

it's one of the things I came up with. So

18:22

another piece of context in the book, which

18:24

I talk about a couple of times, is

18:26

that I've got partway into the project and

18:28

then my entire relationship with cooking, and indeed

18:30

with life with everything, but cooking is always

18:32

about life, changed because my husband

18:35

of 23 years left me for

18:37

another woman and I was just heartbroken.

18:40

And no, thank you. It's,

18:42

you know, life is better now, but it

18:45

was tough for a while. But

18:48

I found suddenly, along with

18:50

everything else, I had to do even

18:52

more cooking than I was doing before. But

18:55

the funny thing was that I found the cooking helped. I

18:57

kept being so surprised by this because I'd

19:01

already begun writing the book and I'd already

19:03

begun writing these things saying, cooking is a

19:05

salve, cooking can soothe us. And

19:09

it was only by being thrown really

19:11

hard, heartbreaking times that I was shown

19:13

the truth of it. Like

19:15

time and again, I would think, I'm feeling

19:17

really wobbly today. I've been crying the night

19:20

before. How am I going to get up? And then it was

19:23

knowing I had to get up and cook

19:25

for my son and my daughter who was

19:27

still at home then and then cook for

19:29

myself. And the mushroom pasta is one of

19:31

the dishes I devised for times where my

19:33

kids were going off to have dinner with

19:35

their dad alone for the first time, which

19:38

felt so strange. And

19:40

then I just thought, what do I feel like?

19:42

I feel like something really simple, but I wanted

19:44

comfort. And I was kind of thinking of, it

19:47

doesn't sound the most appetizing origin for a dish,

19:49

but I was thinking of the canned mushroom soup that my

19:52

dad used to be devoted to, which actually

19:54

when I go back to canned soup, it never gives

19:56

me the same comfort. I think that's...

20:00

It's funny with nostalgia food. Sometimes you

20:03

go back and it's not what you

20:05

remembered. Your palate has changed. I no

20:07

longer enjoy those processed

20:10

soups in the same way, but I wanted

20:12

some of that same flavor palate. So I just

20:15

grated some mushrooms, added some white

20:17

wine, some butter, some load

20:19

of chopped parsley because parsley is

20:22

a comfort food to me because my mother used so

20:24

much of it. A

20:27

bit of salt, some water, threw in

20:29

some spaghetti. And then to my

20:31

amazement after, can't

20:33

remember, maybe 10 minutes of stirring, I

20:36

had this beautiful creamy mushroom pasta

20:39

that was just what I

20:41

felt like eating. You add a bit of cream at the

20:43

end, more parsley, bit of lemon, bit

20:45

of parmesan, and you

20:47

almost feel as if someone else has done the cooking. Yeah.

20:51

I love that. Well, first from a technical

20:53

point of view, now that you talk about it the way

20:55

you do, are you stirring the pasta in there? It's almost

20:58

like you're cooking like a risotto. Right, with

21:00

the starch of the pasta. It really is like a risotto. I

21:02

think the key to that technique

21:04

is thinking, this is not actually something,

21:06

there's nothing new in the kitchen, I

21:09

increasingly think, or very little

21:11

that's new. It usually goes back to some older

21:13

technique. And you're right, it's releasing the beautiful

21:15

starch in the pasta. And

21:18

so it actually has additional creaminess that you

21:20

don't get from pasta cooked the traditional way,

21:22

much as I love that. Yeah,

21:25

and because this way is called magic pasta,

21:27

my son now always calls the other way

21:29

muggle pasta in

21:32

reference to that. Me or non-magical humans.

21:35

Exactly, and he would always prefer the

21:37

muggle version. He's not totally sold on

21:39

the all-in-one. But

21:43

I have to say, again, I'm sorry about

21:46

what happened in your life while you're writing this book,

21:48

but when you come back to

21:50

the idea of cooking as a remedy, truly

21:53

this sounds like a

21:55

remedy, this idea, not just of the

21:58

delicious food that you can make for yourself in this quicker way. But

22:00

also this notion that like, oh, you

22:02

can take control in a small way of your life again, if

22:05

you are finding yourself in a place where things

22:08

are feeling unmoored or you're hungry, you have to

22:10

respond to your hunger, right? You have to respond

22:12

to your physical hunger. And

22:14

for you to be able to quickly go and do

22:16

something quickly without fuss, and because you have

22:18

these ideas, you have these secrets that have been shared

22:20

with you. It's all those

22:22

things, yeah. Absolutely. And it

22:25

reminded me of my own competence, which

22:27

is something I started to doubt in

22:29

my sad state. You can

22:31

start to think, you can

22:33

feel worthless. And then somehow, it's

22:36

hard to feel quite so worthless when you've actually made

22:38

something good to eat. Like the fruits of your labour

22:40

are there right in front of you. And then when

22:42

you get to eat them, you're also nourishing yourself. So

22:45

one of the chapters I most enjoyed writing this

22:47

one called, Be Your Own Guest,

22:49

which is all about cooking alone. And I

22:52

suddenly realised it's just such a neglected topic.

22:54

And I know there've been some great

22:57

books on solo cooking. But

23:00

overall, if you look at cookbooks,

23:02

there's just this default phrase, serve four.

23:06

And suddenly, when you're cooking alone, you think this

23:08

is really tactless, because I don't

23:10

want four portions of something like it's all very well

23:12

saying, cook once, eat

23:14

twice. I think that's great. Like you don't

23:16

want to be cooking necessarily every single meal,

23:18

even if you love to cook. But

23:21

cook once, eat four times, it's kind of, get a bit,

23:23

think of it after the third time. But

23:26

that doesn't mean don't treat yourself. It

23:29

doesn't mean don't treat yourself. And I

23:31

think so often, I spoke to so

23:33

many people during

23:35

the pandemic who said they

23:38

were sociable cooks, and they saw cooking

23:40

as love. And once they

23:42

weren't able to cook for their friends, they just thought

23:45

they couldn't enjoy it as much. And

23:48

I completely relate to

23:50

that attitude. And I see the generosity in it.

23:52

But I also think, can't we

23:54

save some of that love and generosity for

23:56

ourselves? And what better way to

23:58

do it than through food? As

24:02

I always tell my daughter, you have to love

24:04

yourself first. And she says it back

24:06

to me all the time. Does she?

24:09

That's beautiful. You have to love

24:11

yourself first. Yeah. Well, thank you so

24:13

much for this, Bea. It has been such a joy talking with you.

24:16

Thank you, Francis. Bea

24:20

Wilson is the author of The Secret of

24:22

Cooking, Recipes for an Easier Life in the

24:24

Kitchen. And don't forget a box creator

24:26

for your holiday gift list. You can

24:28

find her recipe for that mushroom pasta

24:31

we talked about, her magic pasta with

24:33

mushrooms, garlic, and cream, at splendidtable.org. The

24:44

food writer Sylvie Bigard is someone I met

24:46

many years ago. I'd run

24:48

into her or sit next to her

24:50

at chef events, often something like marvelously

24:52

French. And

24:55

I just always loved talking with her.

24:57

Her curiosity and knowledge of French food are

25:00

so infectious. And I

25:02

wasn't surprised at all when I learned that

25:04

she was tapped by Daniel Boulud, arguably the

25:06

greatest French chef in America, to write his

25:08

magnum opus cookbook. But

25:10

all the while, for over 10 years,

25:12

she'd been quietly working on her own

25:14

book, a slender but gorgeous

25:17

and meaningful little thing about a

25:19

single dish, cassoulet. It's

25:22

a single dish, but with many lives

25:24

and apparently the power to change lives.

25:27

So hey, Sylvie, it's great to see you. Hi

25:30

Francis, thank you so much for having me.

25:32

I'm thrilled. Oh, we're

25:34

thrilled too. So I can't

25:36

wait to talk to you about cassoulet. I'm just gonna dive right into

25:38

it. And

25:42

on the surface, this should be an easy

25:44

question, but I'm guessing that it's actually not

25:46

easy to answer this question, even the simple

25:48

one, but let's try. What

25:52

is cassoulet? How would you define it or

25:54

describe it? Well, cassoulet

25:56

is in fact a

25:59

French bean. and meat stew.

26:02

Actually Julia Child said, cassoulet

26:04

is baked bean with a French

26:07

accent. That's how she described it

26:09

and I love that. What goes

26:11

in it? So the

26:13

most important part, I believe, of

26:16

cassoulet is the bean

26:18

and which bean. That's

26:20

definitely the basis for the dish.

26:23

But then, depending on where you

26:25

have your cassoulet, it's gonna have

26:27

different meats. And

26:29

depending on who's cooking your cassoulet,

26:32

it's gonna taste one way or

26:34

another. Some people put breadcrumbs, some

26:36

people are horrified that there could

26:39

be breadcrumbs. And

26:41

there are, in fact, three

26:43

sort of master recipes because this

26:45

being a French dish, there's got

26:47

to be some kind of code,

26:50

some kind of rule just because

26:52

it's fun to break the rule,

26:54

right? Yeah. Okay, so

26:56

what are the three variations? So

26:59

they're geographical. In fact, there's

27:01

the cassoulet from Toulouse, which

27:03

often has lamb, duck and

27:06

pork. There's the cassoulet from

27:08

Castel Nauderie, a

27:11

small self proclaimed world

27:13

capital of cassoulet. Got that?

27:18

And there's the cassoulet from

27:20

Carcassonne that if you do

27:22

it, the quote unquote right

27:25

way has partridge. But

27:28

it is basically a medley of

27:30

meats. And what I like

27:33

to put in my own cassoulet is

27:35

pork, sausage, and

27:38

duck coffee. And

27:41

how are they prepared? Are they braised

27:44

altogether? So in

27:46

fact, no, the meats are

27:48

actually roasted. And everything

27:50

that goes in the cassoulet

27:52

has been cooked before. Okay,

27:55

okay. And then the whole thing is baked. Yes,

27:57

baked. There's something too about the... vessel

28:00

you cook it in, right? There's something special about

28:02

it or you need it. I mean, I

28:04

guess at home you could just do it in a

28:06

Dutch oven or whatever, but traditionally you would use a

28:08

particular... Yes, so traditionally you

28:11

would use a clay pot. And

28:14

this being France, there's two

28:16

very different kinds of school

28:18

of thoughts. There's the

28:21

people who believe in the conical castle.

28:24

That's the clay pot that gave

28:26

its name to the cassoulet. And

28:28

there's the people who believe in

28:30

the rotund cassoulet. And

28:32

I've actually worked with a

28:34

potter in Minnesota called Clay

28:36

Coyote, led

28:38

by a young woman named Morgan Baum.

28:40

And she and I have

28:43

created what I see as

28:45

the ideal rotund cassoulet. And

28:49

I believe that that's the best

28:51

way to cook cassoulet because the

28:53

Dutch oven sometimes can become too

28:55

hot. And that could dry out

28:57

the beans I feel. Okay,

29:00

okay. I've never really cooked with clay.

29:02

I know there are people who are

29:04

completely obsessed with it. You have

29:06

to. It's very different because... Is

29:08

it because it's gentle? Yes, it is

29:10

gentle. It's

29:12

exactly the right word. The

29:15

heat gets sort of spread

29:17

within that vessel in a

29:20

much gentler and consistent way.

29:23

Okay. And so you layer in

29:25

these different meats. Yes. And the

29:28

beans. Yes. And then how

29:30

does it finish and what makes it so delicious?

29:32

Well, you put all of this,

29:34

you know, with

29:37

stock. You can make

29:39

your own stock if you want or not,

29:41

if you don't have the time. And

29:45

what's really important is to

29:47

have enough collagen in this

29:50

medley of meat that you create

29:52

a crust. And to me,

29:55

getting the crust is sort

29:58

of the win. the

30:00

cassoulet and I've made the cassoulet that

30:02

had a crust and then I've made

30:04

cassoulet that didn't have a crust and

30:06

that was a disaster. So tell

30:10

us about this crust. You mentioned breadcrumbs before

30:13

and I think when we hear crust we automatically assume

30:15

oh there's breadcrumbs on top or whatever but you have

30:17

then said other people would be

30:19

horrified to hear that there are breadcrumbs involved.

30:21

So what is the crust if not the

30:23

breadcrumbs? Well exactly what is

30:25

the crust? I think it's

30:27

a magical process

30:29

that happens and in fact it's

30:33

sort of a caramelization

30:35

of the fat with the

30:38

collagen and with the beans and

30:41

that's why most cassoulet

30:43

have also pigskin because

30:45

that sort of coats the

30:48

whole thing. So

30:50

of course you get a scientist who will

30:52

explain that this is not magic at all

30:54

but I'm not a scientist and

30:56

I like to think of the crust as

30:58

the magical part of the cassoulet. And

31:01

so the idea is you bake it and

31:03

as it bakes there's some kind

31:05

of reduction or something

31:07

on top of the stew

31:09

that eventually solidifies?

31:12

Yes, yes absolutely and there's

31:14

also the tradition of breaking

31:16

the crust. So you open

31:18

the oven you take out

31:20

your cassoulet you break the crust

31:23

you push it down and then you put

31:25

it back in the oven and you

31:28

can do this twice or you

31:30

can do this seven times as many

31:32

as seven times I've seen that in

31:34

recipes and basically the goal is to

31:37

get as much of this crust as

31:39

possible because let's face it it's the

31:41

best part. So

31:44

I feel like I've had cassoulet in restaurants before

31:47

and I know it's this you

31:49

know important dish this

31:51

classical dish in some

31:53

ways as you're saying sort of a mythical dish but

31:56

I've never had it I think done

31:58

the quote-unquote proper way. just

32:00

to the level of care and intention. So

32:02

why is there this kind of mystique

32:05

around this dish and

32:08

debate and I think you actually, you're

32:10

close with someone who started something

32:12

called like the National Academy or

32:15

sorry, the Universal Academy of Castile

32:17

and they're like rival Castile academies.

32:19

Tell us about all of

32:21

that, like the culture and mystique and the debate

32:23

around it. So I

32:26

started this whole

32:28

Castile journey and obsession if

32:30

you will, with a very

32:32

simple assignment. I

32:34

was supposed to go to France, I was

32:36

living in New York but I'm originally from

32:39

Switzerland and French is my first language. And

32:42

I was called to write

32:44

a story about the history of Castile. This was

32:46

a long time ago, 2008. And

32:49

I thought it'd be a simple story. I

32:53

Googled Castile and south of

32:55

France and landed

32:57

on the page of the Universal

32:59

Academy of Castile. And I thought,

33:01

what is this? And

33:03

just the word universal, I mean, you

33:06

know that this is not a modest

33:08

group. So there was a

33:10

phone number and I

33:12

called the phone number and I had on

33:16

the other side of the Atlantic

33:20

this very gross man saying, hello.

33:23

And I explained, I'm a journalist, I'm

33:26

living in New York, I have this

33:28

assignment and I was speaking French to

33:30

him and he got confused. He said,

33:32

French journalist living in New York. And

33:35

then he basically said, come for lunch

33:37

on Sunday. And he hung up. And

33:41

I couldn't come for

33:43

lunch that Sunday, obviously

33:45

it was a little far. But

33:48

I did arrange to travel to

33:50

his restaurant near Carcassonne. And

33:54

I thought, as I'm sure

33:56

you've experienced, I'd

33:58

be, you know, led into the

34:00

kitchen, maybe I could sit at the

34:02

counter and maybe someone would give me

34:05

a few beans to taste or a

34:07

glass of water if you're lucky. And

34:10

that's not at all what happened. I thought

34:12

this would be a simple story and a

34:14

simple trip, but it changed my life. So

34:17

what did happen? So

34:19

when I arrived, first of

34:21

all, I wasn't taken to the

34:24

kitchen. I was taken to the dining room and

34:26

the table was set for 25. And

34:29

in front of me were these

34:31

sort of oompa loompas wearing red

34:34

and green robes and beret and

34:38

speaking amongst themselves in the language

34:40

I'd never heard before. That

34:42

was not German. That was not Italian. That

34:44

was not Spanish. Turns out

34:46

it was Occitan. And

34:48

it was almost like I

34:51

had sort of arrived in a

34:53

secret society, which was sort of

34:55

what it was. And

34:59

then they started singing, still

35:01

in Occitan, and doors

35:04

to the kitchen opened and this

35:06

parade arrived in

35:09

the dining room and they were carrying

35:11

a stretcher covered

35:13

with red and gold satin. And

35:16

on it was this humongous

35:18

clay pot with a bubbly

35:20

golden concoction in it. And

35:23

it was like something I'd never

35:26

tasted. And that was my

35:28

first deep dive, if you will, into

35:31

Kessoule. Oh

35:33

my God. What was that first bite like? You must remember

35:35

it. Well, I do remember

35:38

it because what happened is I tasted

35:40

this and it immediately

35:42

brought me back home,

35:45

except we read, obviously we

35:47

all know about Proust and

35:50

the Mad Land or the

35:53

food critic in Ratatouille who was transported.

35:56

It's a cliche, right? But in

35:58

my case, it was a cliche. It did

36:01

not make any sense because

36:03

we never ate cassoulet in

36:05

the childhood home where

36:07

I grew up and So

36:10

it took me a very

36:12

very long time years to

36:14

understand Why it felt

36:16

like home? We'll

36:19

be back with more with Sylvie Begar

36:21

author of cassoulet concessions. I'm

36:23

Francis lamb and this is the splendid table

36:25

from APM I'm Support

36:30

comes from dishing on Julia the

36:32

official companion podcast in the max

36:34

original series Julia Get

36:36

ready to dive back into the world

36:38

of culinary legend Julia child because Julia

36:40

is back for a second season only

36:42

on max This captivating

36:44

series is inspired by Julia child's

36:46

extraordinary life and her groundbreaking

36:48

television series the French chef Which paved

36:50

the way for all of food TV

36:52

today and dishing on Julia

36:55

is the official companion podcast offering a

36:57

deeper look into this Culinary icons life

37:00

join host Carrie Diamond of cherry bomb as

37:02

she speaks with culinary superstars Like

37:04

famed chef Eric repair and smitten

37:06

kitchens dead Pearlman who share their

37:08

perspective on and personal connection to

37:10

Julia child dishing on

37:12

Julia also takes you behind the scenes

37:14

with the show's producers creators and crew

37:16

to unpack every episode and explore the

37:18

making Of the series listen

37:21

to dishing on Julia the official

37:23

Julia companion podcast on max Wherever

37:25

you get your podcasts and stream

37:27

new episodes of Julia Thursdays on

37:29

max We're

37:38

talking to food writer Sylvie Begar author

37:40

of cassoulet confessions and before its break

37:42

She was telling us about a dinner

37:44

event where she experienced that classic French

37:47

dish and that changed her

37:49

life Get back to war with her So

37:53

tell me about the rest of the

37:55

table the 24 other people the

37:57

robes the I mean it sounds very

38:00

very ritualistic. Do you know what

38:02

that story is? Well, I

38:04

think that the reason why the chef who

38:06

in my book is named Eric

38:08

Garcia, he

38:12

co-founded this universal Academy of

38:14

Cassoulet. But the reason behind

38:16

this was more than to,

38:18

you know, in his words,

38:20

save this dish. It

38:23

was because he felt that this dish basically

38:26

represented the land, represented

38:29

his region. Every

38:32

ingredient in Cassoulet comes

38:34

from the region. And

38:37

there are several tales about, you

38:39

know, how Cassoulet originated. But

38:42

for him and for the people

38:44

at the table, what mattered is

38:47

that, you know, there would be

38:49

still the authentic three-day Cassoulet, even

38:51

though you can also, and I'm

38:53

sure you know this, buy Cassoulet

38:56

in a can. And

38:58

if, you know, or in the jar.

39:00

And some of them are not that

39:02

bad, honestly. But

39:05

they were horrified by sort

39:07

of the marketing that had

39:09

grown around this dish. And

39:11

they wanted to counter that

39:13

and make sure that for

39:16

people who were looking for

39:18

authentic taste, you know, we

39:20

can debate what that means

39:22

really. But there

39:24

would be restaurants and

39:26

places that would be

39:28

vetted by this Academy.

39:31

And that's how this whole

39:33

thing started. Okay,

39:37

so of these different origin stories, which

39:39

is the one that feels most persuasive

39:41

to you? Well, honestly,

39:43

I feel that all

39:45

three are persuasive. I

39:48

like the Cassoulet from Toulouse because

39:50

I love lamb and I love

39:52

braised lamb. So that's delicious. I

39:56

only tried the partridge in the

39:59

Carcassette. Sun version once, but

40:01

I thought that was delicious. That was,

40:03

you know, gamey and interesting. And

40:07

then in Castel Notary, it's just the

40:09

pork and a

40:11

Toulouse sausage and

40:14

also duck confit. So it

40:16

sort of depends, you know, what you like.

40:19

And since this whole obsession started, people have

40:21

asked me, so what do you do if

40:23

you don't eat pork? Right. So

40:26

I tried and made a

40:28

Castellet with veal shank instead

40:30

of pork. Okay. And

40:32

that was delicious as well.

40:34

Okay, so this is an

40:36

interesting thing, right? Because we're talking about a dish

40:39

that has so many components, you know, obviously

40:41

there's debate as to which is the official

40:43

one, which is, or which is the original

40:45

one, I guess not official. And

40:48

since those already vary, but then

40:51

there's like a line that you kind of can't cross

40:53

when you're evolving it in your

40:55

own kitchen, right? So is there

40:57

a sense of what that line is? Like what's the

40:59

acceptable boundary of innovation? You know, if you go back

41:01

to your friends at the table, you said, well, I

41:03

made it with veal shank. Are they going to be

41:05

like, okay, it's been nice knowing you probably

41:10

so, probably so. But you know

41:12

what my personal line is? It's

41:15

the breadcrumbs because

41:17

you're one of the people horrified by the breadcrumbs.

41:19

Yes. And actually Julia Child

41:22

puts breadcrumbs in her castle.

41:24

But I'm

41:26

so intrigued by

41:28

the whole idea of the crust

41:31

and why it works sometimes and not

41:33

others. I don't want to

41:35

add the breadcrumbs, which of course are going

41:38

to create some kind of crust. But

41:40

you know, I think that

41:43

that's a unnecessary add-on,

41:45

if you will. So my line is the

41:47

breadcrumbs. Okay, that's

41:49

fair. I guess we all have to find our

41:51

cassoulet line that we won't cross. But

41:53

so I can only imagine that was

41:55

a very intense and powerful moment

41:57

and it really helps the dish sound. like

42:00

it was just incredibly delicious. But

42:03

you've really taken it to heart.

42:05

And I think you noted that the

42:08

first bite made you feel like you were at

42:10

home but you're confused. Why did you become so

42:12

obsessed with it? I mean that was 15 years

42:14

ago. And you wrote a book that

42:16

came out last year. And it

42:19

sounds like you've been thinking about it

42:21

and kind of writing this book for

42:23

the whole time. But why did it

42:26

strike you so much personally? Well,

42:29

so I asked myself this question

42:31

for years, for

42:33

basically 10 years. I

42:36

would write about something related

42:38

to cassoulet, you know, maybe

42:40

what kind of clay pot

42:42

is the best to cook

42:44

cassoulet and what

42:46

kind of beans. I wrote a

42:49

profile of the chef. I wrote about

42:51

his restaurant. I wrote about the academy.

42:53

And every time I would

42:55

think, okay, now I can move on

42:58

and do something else. And still I

43:00

would have these dreams and I would

43:02

think, oh, but there's more to this.

43:04

There's more to this. But I didn't

43:06

know what it was. And finally,

43:09

I was able to take a few

43:12

weeks off and I went

43:14

to a retreat. And I

43:16

sort of faced this, you

43:18

know, imaginary cassoulet in my head.

43:20

And I

43:22

realized this was deeper

43:25

than just a dish

43:27

I loved. And I realized

43:29

by writing sort of the actually first

43:32

sentence of the first chapter, which is

43:34

that we never ate cassoulet in the

43:36

dining room of Beauchamp, the

43:38

name of the house I grew up

43:40

in on Lake Geneva. And that sort

43:43

of unraveled the whole

43:46

story of my upbringing and

43:49

my very dysfunctional family. And

43:54

sort of I realized that cassoulet

43:57

was a thread, you know, it was

43:59

sort of the path

44:01

that allowed me to face

44:04

a lot of the things I had

44:06

sort of fled from after I left

44:09

Geneva and moved to New York. So

44:13

you have a few recipes of cassoulet

44:16

at the end of the book and

44:18

you have a couple of the different regional

44:20

variations and then you have your own. And

44:23

you actually have two of your own. One is a full

44:26

three-day process and then one's condensed. I

44:28

think you can start it that morning

44:30

and have it for dinner that night. Tell

44:32

us about, if we're ready, if

44:34

like I've got a long weekend coming up,

44:38

I'm ready to spend three days making

44:41

cassoulet. Walk us through that. Well,

44:43

I mean, I would say

44:45

start with the cassoulet that

44:47

I call gateway cassoulet, but

44:49

you know, which you can start

44:52

in the morning and eat in the evening. But if

44:54

you want to start with the three-day one,

44:56

I mean, basically the

44:58

first day you cook the

45:00

beans, you make the stock and

45:03

you cook the beans, you know,

45:05

and then you roast the meats.

45:09

And what's really important in

45:11

my version of cassoulet is

45:14

that I put in a blender, onion,

45:17

garlic, and a little bit of water

45:19

and I puree this. And

45:21

then we're going to put this in the cassoulet. And

45:25

then you put all of these

45:28

meats and the beans

45:30

and the stock in the oven and

45:33

you cook it for a

45:36

while and

45:38

hopefully you'll see the crust

45:40

happen. And then

45:43

you take the cassoulet out of the

45:45

oven and you let it cool and

45:47

you put it in the refrigerator. And

45:51

then the next day you bake

45:53

it again. And

45:55

I'm actually looking at the recipe and

45:57

my recipe has only two days. three.

46:00

It's Eric Garcia who takes three days. You

46:02

know my Castile

46:11

Master as I like to say. But

46:14

I would start with the

46:16

gateway Castile because I think

46:19

a lot of people are sort of

46:21

intimidated by the idea of spending three

46:24

days making a dish. So

46:27

what speeds up the process to

46:29

give you one day? Well

46:32

you don't soak the

46:34

beans in the gateway Castile

46:36

while Eric Garcia

46:38

soaks them overnight and

46:40

you don't make your own stock

46:43

which is fine. You know there's

46:45

perfectly good stocks out there and

46:47

I think that works just fine.

46:49

And then also you don't put

46:52

obviously the stew in

46:54

the refrigerator. You

46:56

just cook it through and then

46:58

serve it that evening. But a

47:00

lot of braise and a

47:02

lot of stews are actually better the

47:04

next day. I'm sure you agree with

47:06

me. So that's where the second day

47:09

comes in for my recipe.

47:12

Yeah. But

47:14

then you've talked about the crust. Have

47:16

you figured out what, I know to

47:19

you it seems a little magical you said. So maybe

47:22

there's no, well if you do

47:24

this you're gonna get the crust. If you do

47:26

this you won't. But do you have a sense

47:28

like what gives you that crust? I

47:31

think it's a mixture of

47:34

collagen fat and

47:36

the skin of the beans. But

47:38

if you say that I mean it doesn't sound

47:41

that good right? I

47:44

know. I know. So I mean I

47:46

used to say well you know maybe

47:48

depends on the prayer or something like

47:50

that. I want to

47:53

believe that it's mythical and magical. Okay

47:55

okay. Well you know it's interesting I

47:57

remember when I was in culinary school

48:00

I remember one of the exams

48:02

I had to take like one of the actual cooking exams I

48:06

had to do like a like three dishes or something like

48:08

that And one of them was a soup and

48:10

you have to do it to a time and so basically I finished

48:12

making the soup I think it was like a

48:14

cream of mushroom soup or something like that And

48:17

I want to keep it hot and so I you know,

48:19

I plated it and then I kept it in the oven Mm-hmm,

48:22

you know just to keep it warm. I finished the

48:24

rest of the dishes and I scored

48:27

very well on my exam. Thank you very much except

48:29

I Got docked points because

48:31

when I serve the soup there was a skin

48:33

on the soup and you know I'm sure we've

48:36

all seen it. Yes, and

48:38

it was because the soup was cooked and then

48:40

you put it in the oven and as the

48:42

soup You know sat in

48:44

the warm oven. There's something about the very top of

48:46

the soup that forms a skin Yes,

48:48

and I think I think I've looked it up once because

48:50

I was so like curious

48:54

Why a that was bad, you know, like hey,

48:56

you know, what's bad because it's a different texture

48:58

It's not like the smooth beautiful puree like everything

49:01

else, but I wonder why it happened and

49:03

it was something like it's almost like when you make Tofu

49:07

skin, yes Yuba as they call

49:09

it in Japanese It's you're also you're sort of

49:11

doing a purpose which is like a

49:13

liquid that has a lot of protein in it

49:15

If it's cooked very slowly Basically

49:18

the very top of it dries out a little

49:20

bit like the evaporation happens in the very top

49:22

and then the proteins kind of Stick

49:24

together right and then it

49:26

creates, you know a skin. Yep, and

49:28

you could like You

49:31

know if you were my culinary school instructor you'd be like,

49:33

no you have to lift it out because it's an impurity

49:36

Or if you're making Yuba you slowly lift it

49:38

out and you let it dry and it's a

49:40

beautiful food in its own It's

49:43

like that. I wonder if it's like that skin

49:45

but formed over a long period of

49:47

time. So it's very thick and actually gets Crisp

49:50

and crusty and and then like you said

49:52

you break it, right? Exactly So that's

49:54

the difference I see between the skin

49:56

of a soup which actually can be

49:58

delicious in itself I

50:01

totally agree with you. I'm still

50:04

salty about losing those points, by the way. No,

50:06

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But

50:09

you know, it makes me think of what happens

50:11

when you cook milk, right? When you

50:13

heat up milk. The

50:16

difference between the skin and the crust

50:18

is what you just said before, which

50:21

is the caramelized, right? Because I don't

50:23

think the skin of your soup was

50:25

caramelized. Right, right, right, right. It

50:27

was just dried just the right amount.

50:30

He just didn't know what he was talking about. Well,

50:35

every French chef would have told you the same. So, yes, well,

50:38

we don't want to get banished from the country. No,

50:40

exactly. But, okay, so how

50:42

is the Universal Academy of Castellas? Is

50:44

it still going strong? It

50:47

is going strong, but Eric

50:49

Garcia has retired, which is

50:51

really, really sad. And

50:53

I think that when he retired, he said

50:56

he was done, and

50:58

he wasn't going to cook cassoulet ever again.

51:01

Oh my goodness, really? Yeah,

51:03

because he, I mean, it was

51:05

his specialty in his restaurant. And

51:07

so he cooked cassoulet twice or

51:09

three times a week. And

51:11

he lived with his family above

51:13

the restaurant, and that's what they

51:15

ate. I mean, a

51:18

lot of the meals was just

51:20

leftover cassoulet, including breakfast. I

51:23

always remember when I came down for breakfast.

51:26

He was being down. Yes, cassoulet for breakfast

51:28

with red wine and including for

51:31

the kids. Oh my goodness, okay. I

51:33

mean, yeah, and that's where

51:35

you realize that this is really

51:37

in the fabric of the land.

51:39

You know, this is not just

51:41

a good dish for a fine

51:43

dining restaurant, far from that. Yeah.

51:47

Well, I know you've studied so much, these

51:49

very traditional cassoulets and people who are devoted

51:52

to preserving it in this sort

51:55

of original, maybe not original, but in

51:57

this particular way. Have

52:01

you had ones that felt subversive

52:03

to you? Have you had ones that felt

52:05

like, wow, this is like a cool new

52:08

step for this? Or are you just, would

52:10

you just reject that idea? No,

52:13

I'm very interested in

52:16

different interpretations

52:19

of the dish. And

52:21

I don't feel that I'm somebody who

52:23

can decide what's real and what's not.

52:25

What matters to me is whether it's

52:28

good. Does it taste good? And that's

52:30

also what I want to say to

52:32

people who want to try this at

52:34

home. Don't be intimidated. Just

52:36

make your cassoulet. And if you

52:38

have another piece of meat that's

52:40

lying around, put it in and

52:43

see what happens. Maybe it'll be

52:45

good. Maybe it won't. But

52:47

I don't want to be doctrinaire.

52:49

That's boring. And

52:52

you know the people who are if you need to talk to them. Yes,

52:55

I do. Thank you so much, Sylvie. Thank

52:58

you, Francis. This was so much fun. Sylvie

53:01

Begar is the author of Cassoulet

53:04

Confessions, Food, France, Family, and the

53:06

Stew that Saved My Soul. And

53:09

she left us with a recipe for

53:11

gateway cassoulet at splendidtable.org. And

53:13

that's our show for the week. Thank you as

53:15

always for listening and go make something delicious. Whether

53:18

it takes you 10 minutes or three days, we'll talk to you

53:20

next week. APM

53:22

Studios are run by Tondra Cavati, Joanne

53:24

Griffith, and Alex Shaffer. Beth Perlman is

53:27

our executive producer, and the Splendid Table

53:29

was created by Sally Swift and Lin-Manuel

53:31

Casper. It's made every week

53:33

by technical producer Jennifer Luebke, producer Erica

53:35

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53:40

Subscribe to our podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever

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53:44

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53:47

Francis Lam, and this is APM Studios.

53:54

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