0:01

I francis lamb and this is the splendid table

0:03

from a yeah. So

0:08

I'm not a huge Christmas caroling. I

0:10

hadn't. Really grow up with them in the

0:12

house so I mostly know them from. You

0:14

know, like going to the

0:17

mall But a few weeks

0:19

ago I have the most

0:21

amazing video. out there on

0:23

the internet. Jordan Davis He is

0:26

a defensive tackle the Philadelphia Eagles.

0:28

He a man who has six

0:30

foot six, three hundred and thirty

0:33

six pounds, runs a forty yard-in

0:35

four point seven seconds and his

0:37

job is to obliterate opposing two

0:40

hundred and twenty pound that Linda's

0:42

video. He's surrounded by his teammates.

0:45

And he is

0:47

shy. He's giggling.

0:49

He literally starts me how we like a cat

0:52

to get his nerves out. And. Then

0:54

he sings the

0:57

most unbelievably. Court

0:59

which is rendition of have

1:01

yourself a Merry Little Christmas.

1:04

It's jaw dropping and hearing

1:07

it, you know, like I

1:09

just couldn't help but feel

1:11

about whether you celebrate. Christmas

1:14

or not, there's really something

1:16

magical about the spirit of

1:18

celebration, how we want to

1:20

have traditions and songs and

1:22

rituals and gatherings no matter

1:24

who we are. If you're

1:26

anything like me, those gatherings

1:29

are going to have food

1:31

and drink. But

1:33

no matter what they're going on with

1:35

can do something that you will want

1:37

to have been for later in the

1:39

show we've got drinks with my dear

1:41

friend told me to the Martin authored

1:43

the new book your joints, Jazz Club

1:46

and use. He got fantastic desserts with

1:48

cooking video star and bestselling author of

1:50

what's for dessert, where's efforts and well.

1:52

okay. I don't know if I intentionally

1:54

set out to find the most Christmas

1:56

loving cook on earth, but we may

1:58

have found him next time. is

2:00

the award-winning author of a whole collection

2:02

of beautiful delicious cookbooks filled with just

2:05

enough food science to make you a

2:07

genius cook. His latest is called Vegetable.

2:09

We're gonna start a

2:11

holiday feast by eating our vegetables

2:13

with him. Hey Nick, it's great to

2:15

see you. Hi Francis, it's wonderful

2:17

to see you. I have

2:19

to know, how do you celebrate the holidays?

2:23

Aggressively and excessively, I'm all

2:25

about like the craziness of

2:27

Christmas. Why is

2:30

that? How did you become Mr.

2:32

Christmas? I

2:34

don't think I have that title yet because we

2:36

actually don't do a lot outside the house. Inside

2:38

the house, I'm definitely, you know, I've got a

2:41

Christmas tree in the kitchen which only has ornaments

2:44

that resemble food or something and

2:46

like the living room has its own regular Christmas

2:48

tree. But I'm really particular about it because that

2:50

was the one holiday that I grew up celebrating

2:53

and it started

2:55

in November. India doesn't have Thanksgiving.

2:57

There's no need for a Thanksgiving.

2:59

So Christmas started in November and then

3:02

it ended I think

3:04

two weeks later in January after. Yeah, because

3:06

my grandmother was very like

3:08

hardcore Catholic and so that's kind of like

3:10

the you can just imagine. But

3:13

when I moved to America, it's

3:15

the best and the most colorful time of

3:17

the year to be honest because everyone is

3:19

so festive. The stores get lit

3:21

up, the streets are you know decorated and I

3:23

love it. And then boom, like as soon as

3:25

New Year's ends, you feel

3:27

the harshness of winter and everything is just

3:30

so sad. All

3:32

the colors are gone, all the lights are gone.

3:34

Everyone's now so depressed and aggravated

3:36

about winter but that's why I love Christmas

3:38

time so much. Oh God, you know, I

3:40

love your sense of color and

3:43

I actually appreciate that you've come to this interview

3:45

in your Snoopy Christmas sweater.

3:49

But you're totally right. It is something that like all the

3:51

decorations that go away. I mean, we keep our

3:53

decorations up for a while. But it

3:55

is true and especially if you know folks who had

3:57

Christmas trees, you know, bring them out to the curb.

4:00

for garbage. There's a certain, now

4:03

it's just winter. But

4:06

how did you celebrate it in terms of the food

4:08

you were eating? You had mentioned you had all these

4:11

rituals and traditions that you grew up with. Yeah.

4:14

So Christmas for me growing up was the biggest

4:16

holiday. The second one would have been New Year's

4:19

and then Easter would be the third one. And

4:21

in India, I grew up in Bombay. And

4:25

about, I want to say somewhere around

4:27

the end of October, everyone

4:29

in my mother's family would start taking

4:31

time off because they would

4:33

start working on preparing the sweets for Christmas. So

4:35

in India, Christmas, at least in the Christian communities,

4:38

it's a big deal. And a

4:40

lot of people also get married around

4:42

that time because, yeah, it's,

4:44

it's actually really hard getting a reservation

4:47

at a church or even finding a

4:49

venue. And the other thing that happens

4:51

is everyone takes leave from work legally

4:54

or illegally. I'm not quite sure, but it seems

4:56

like everyone is taking weeks off just to sit

4:58

at home and make Christmas sweets. And

5:00

not only would they make Christmas sweets, one of

5:03

the things my grandmother would do was also prepare

5:05

sorbetella and bindaloo, which are two pork dishes. Usually

5:07

they were made a month in advance

5:09

and then stuck in the freezer. And then

5:12

Christmas day, they would be brought out

5:14

and served. So there was a lot of

5:16

preparation done in advance because this

5:19

was every family's moment

5:21

to shine, kind of everybody's competing with

5:23

the quality of sweets and cakes that

5:26

they produce between neighbors, friends and family.

5:28

So it's a fun time. And

5:30

yeah, it just brings back a lot of memories. So

5:32

I've tried to hold on to that tradition. I

5:35

love that. That's so sweet. So,

5:38

you know, it's funny because on the surface, it wouldn't

5:40

seem that all this festive

5:42

joyous holiday talk necessarily

5:45

meets the moment with your vegetable

5:47

book, veg table. But I,

5:50

you know, I was flipping through it and there are so

5:52

many dishes in there that I would love to see at

5:54

a festive table. And I know

5:56

the holidays are not necessarily the time

5:58

for recipe experimentation. It

10:00

helps break it down. But also during

10:03

the process of heating, it starts to

10:05

develop better flavors because baking soda is

10:07

a catalyst for two flavor developing reactions

10:09

in vegetables, the caramelization of

10:11

sugars and the Maillard reaction, which takes

10:13

place between sugars and amino acids on

10:16

proteins. So you're kind of getting multiple

10:18

benefits from just throwing this tiny pinch

10:20

of baking soda. And I also realized

10:22

it improves the texture because it breaks

10:25

down the starches and then the starches

10:27

kind of morph and

10:29

they help thicken the soup

10:31

naturally much better. I love

10:34

this because this is like a perfect Nick

10:36

Schramm moment. It's like, oh yeah, it's carrot

10:38

apple soup. But oh, by the way, have

10:40

I ever told you I'm a scientist? Yeah.

10:43

But that sounds amazing. So literally a little

10:45

pinch of baking soda will make the carrots

10:48

caramelize, like even

10:50

before you like roast the bejesus out. So

10:52

you get caramelized flavor without getting to the

10:54

point where they're so brown and dried out.

10:56

Absolutely. That's so interesting. Yeah. It's just one

10:58

of those things where like a tiny bit

11:00

goes a long way. And I love that

11:03

it pays off and the dividends are just

11:05

so many in such different ways. Flavor, texture,

11:07

even the aroma, I find the aroma is

11:09

actually much more sweeter.

11:12

And then it really plays well with the harissa.

11:14

That's so interesting. Okay, so carrots and harissa, obviously,

11:16

they've become a

11:18

very favorite flavor pairing. I think they're

11:21

very typical of Moroccan, Moroccan carrots are often

11:23

flavored with harissa. Why do you think

11:25

those flavors work so well together? I think

11:29

because, you know, the carrots are just so sweet. Harissa,

11:31

on the other hand, is this hot.

11:34

Usually it's very hot, depending on the type of

11:37

chilies that I used to make it, but it's

11:39

usually really hot. It's got a savory kind of

11:42

earthy balance to it. And for

11:44

one, I think this may be my personal bias,

11:46

but carrots are grown in soil. So whenever I

11:48

think of that, you know, soil and carrots, I'm

11:51

thinking, or I want more earthy flavors from the

11:53

vegetable, because it's a root vegetable. The same thing

11:55

with parsnips. I would do the same thing because

11:57

I'm trying to build on what my, you know,

12:00

internal biases are telling me and her is that you're

12:02

still up with that. I think that's why it's such a

12:04

popular. We'll

12:06

be back with more from Nick

12:08

Sharma, author of vegetable recipes, techniques

12:11

and plant science for big flavored

12:13

vegetable focused meals and

12:15

we're off to meet the dessert person herself,

12:17

Claire Saffitz, I'm Francis Lamb and

12:19

this is the Splendid Table from APM. I'm

12:29

Francis Lamb and this is the show for curious cooks

12:31

and eaters. We're getting some inspiration

12:33

for our holiday feast. We're going to go

12:35

back to it with Nick Sharma, author of

12:38

vegetable. I

12:40

know you want to talk about one more dish, which

12:42

is your stuffed cabbage rolls and tomato sauce,

12:44

because we are Christmas colors and you are

12:46

on your way to becoming Mr. Christmas. Go

12:49

for it. OK,

12:52

so this comes back to my grandmother, my

12:54

late grandmother. So she used to make

12:56

these cabbage rolls. She loved stuffing vegetables

12:58

with me. And

13:00

one of the things she'd do is she'd cook

13:02

ground beef or mutton and

13:04

flavor it with different spices, kind of

13:06

make a keema, which is the generic

13:08

term for Indian ground meat.

13:10

And what she'd do is so in

13:12

going culture, they use vinegar. So what

13:15

is her recipe originally was

13:17

to take cabbage leaves and then she dipped

13:19

them in boiling water to help soften them,

13:21

make a little V notch at the end

13:24

of the leaf where the stem is, and

13:26

then she'd fill it up with the ground

13:28

beef, roll it up like a little cigar

13:30

and then steam or rather braise it in

13:32

tomato sauce and then season

13:35

it with extra spices or whatever. So I

13:37

decided for this book, I really wanted to

13:39

do this dish. And at the

13:41

time I did not think about Christmas. I

13:43

did not realize that the green and the

13:45

red color were very obvious. It

13:47

was only until we had a call that I

13:49

thought about it. But I realized that this

13:52

is a dish where I can show people how

13:54

the arts. I feel that one of the things

13:56

we really don't do with vegetable these days in

13:58

cookbooks Is always focused on the food.

14:00

shopping starting fine and you know braising and all

14:02

those things are for be really don't play and

14:04

have fun with them and for me this was

14:06

one way to kind of bring that in by

14:08

can show people or you can fall leave stuff

14:11

them into a lot of like cool thing for.

14:13

Them So This the Savage Worlds are basically

14:15

that I made it vegetarian by including a

14:17

mixture of mashed potatoes and lentils. That a

14:19

pre cooked bigger folded ends and the technique

14:21

is the same Again I use canned tomatoes

14:24

on top to raise so a cabbage leaves

14:26

and then I do a third car which

14:28

is basically of or flavoring technique for your

14:30

layering with spices. Infused. Into hot

14:32

oil. Of finishing with

14:34

that are gotta love that. I love the technique

14:37

because you you add this express flavor of these

14:39

like sizzled spices at the end and it's so

14:41

aromatic when it's the table. Yeah and at the

14:43

holidays I feel people are looking for little bit

14:45

of flair and drama the dinner table. so if

14:47

you can do the third call you could just

14:49

open the dish at the table. everybody's gonna go.

14:51

Wow It's such a simple easy thing to do.

14:53

but if you can why your gas and get

14:55

away with that, you know what it is. A.

14:58

Fake. It till you make it. This is this.

15:03

For an aunt who have lived, let me ask you

15:06

one more thing. Ah, What's.

15:09

The great holiday gift. I'm

15:11

actually at you I have some get at it

15:13

the shop for. Largest gathering

15:15

ideas, Are. Great great holiday

15:18

gifts! So my favorite holiday gifts

15:20

to receive at Christmas. Is.

15:24

A. Christmas tree ornaments shaped. Either.

15:26

As a vegetable or some kind of

15:28

did sort of fruits because I can

15:30

hang it on the tree and. I.

15:33

Love when people do that like I had. a

15:35

couple of friends of now picked up on that

15:38

and it's the only time. My thing is is

15:40

it's a cool and you can use that. Your

15:42

assay are you bring it out It makes it

15:44

so special. This is a very specific gift but

15:46

I am glad that is now on my radar

15:49

for for my friends who are obsessed with their

15:51

own Christmas. Well thank you so much. Next have

15:53

great holidays and it's insistence on with you need

15:55

your friends or thanks for having me. Elixir

15:59

is. of vegetable recipes,

16:01

techniques, and plant science for

16:03

big flavored vegetable stuffy cereals.

16:06

Left us with that recipe for stuffed cabbage rolls, and

16:08

you'll find it on thetable.org. So

16:14

we're going to go from vegetables right into dessert,

16:16

and no better to do that with than Claire

16:18

Saffitz, one of the internet's

16:20

most beloved cooking stars, a two time

16:22

New York Times selling author, and dessert

16:25

person extraordinaire. Claire is someone I turned

16:27

to both when I really want to

16:29

learn how to make something classic and

16:31

when I want to just taste something

16:33

brand new. Her latest book is

16:35

called What's for Dessert? Simple Recipes

16:37

for Dessert People. Hey

16:41

Claire, happy holidays! Hi Francis, how

16:43

are you? So nice to be here. I

16:45

am so happy to see you. You know what I just realized?

16:49

You know how like, there's a

16:51

thing in restaurants where the pastry chef

16:53

is kind of like the closer

16:55

in baseball? Uh huh. For the first person,

16:57

the whole team relies on to make sure the guest leaves with

16:59

a good impression. Right. All of a

17:01

sudden it's like all on this one person. And

17:04

like, you know, really great dessert can obviously

17:06

sometimes save a kind of meh meal. Yeah.

17:08

But not to put too much pressure on

17:11

that person, but like for a big festive

17:13

holiday meal, you kind

17:15

of want dessert to do the same thing. Yep.

17:17

So luckily we have you today. Right,

17:20

thank you. Thank you. And

17:22

I take the pressure in a good way. I take it as a positive

17:24

thing. I feel like dessert is

17:26

part of the meal. So you should pay as

17:28

much, if not more attention to it compared to

17:30

the rest of the meal. And

17:32

also it's like dessert is so often a thing you can do

17:35

in advance. And so

17:37

you can actually start making it first before

17:39

you start on the meal. And therefore you

17:41

feel like fresh and you have

17:43

your like energy to devote to it. So

17:45

I think that there's no reason why dessert

17:47

should not be like the

17:49

best part of the whole meal, even if the rest of the meal

17:51

is fantastic. So you want to end

17:54

on a high note. Yeah. And

17:56

one thing I always love about your recipes is like,

17:58

oh, you can go as highly. is

18:00

anyone, but I think you

18:02

truly genuinely love great desserts. You

18:05

can make ahead without a lot of stress, and that

18:07

really shows. So

18:09

okay, so if we are planning a dessert for

18:11

our wonderful holiday meal this year, what's

18:13

on your mind? What do you suggest for us? Yeah, so

18:16

it's wintertime and I really gravitate toward fruit

18:18

desserts, and in winter your options are obviously

18:20

a little more limited than they are. In

18:22

summer when you have like all the berries

18:24

and stone fruit, but one thing

18:26

I cherish about winter is citrus fruit.

18:28

So I love a citrusy dessert, especially

18:30

if during the holidays you're eating stuff

18:32

that's a little heavier and like

18:35

a little richer. So a citrus dessert I think is

18:37

a great bright way to round

18:40

out a meal. Of course I think chocolate is also great for

18:42

the holidays, but I am, this might

18:44

surprise some people knowing that I am a

18:46

dessert person, but I'm less of a chocolate

18:48

person really. I mean I like chocolate of

18:50

course, it's an incredible flavor and ingredient, but

18:52

I do gravitate much more toward fruit desserts.

18:54

So one dessert that I really

18:56

have in mind for the holidays is a recipe

18:59

from my second cookbook which is called What's for

19:01

Dessert? And it is at the end

19:03

of a chapter that is a little bit of a

19:05

catch-all that's like desserts baked in

19:07

the oven that are not cakes or pies

19:10

or tarts or anything like that. It's

19:13

like a dessert. The title rolls right off the tongue.

19:15

Right, it's, I mean well I thought

19:17

about it actually first it's kind of like everything

19:19

it doesn't fit in another chapter, but really what

19:21

unites it is that everything is kind of a

19:23

custard-based dessert. You know things like creme brulee and

19:26

another custard, but what I have in that chapter

19:28

are a couple of bread puddings and

19:30

I'm not so much of a bread pudding person. I'm really kind

19:32

of like taking a look at me get to what the recipe

19:35

is, but I did set out

19:37

a goal for myself with this chapter to develop

19:39

a couple of bread puddings that I really love

19:41

and so I thought why not take bread pudding

19:43

which is this kind of heavier dessert and

19:46

try to lighten it up by doing a

19:48

citrus version. So I have this recipe that's

19:50

a souffleed lemon bread pudding and

19:52

it's so good and weirdly light

19:54

like surprisingly light and the reason

19:56

it's called souffleed is because it

19:58

has egg It's that are beaten.

20:01

And. In the folded and to that Custer bread

20:04

Bateman been okay though it really kind of

20:06

pops up in the oven and get super

20:08

light and then you have that combination of

20:10

a light texture plus dislike. Really intense citrusy

20:12

flavor from lemon curd and had served with

20:14

a little bit of lemon curd on the

20:16

side as like a sauce. It

20:19

is almost you'd I would think you would

20:21

surprise people by serving as the calling up

20:23

bread pudding because it is so kind of

20:25

light and citrusy. But. It also is rich them

20:28

either by putting should be rich know. That

20:30

sounds so good and I love bread

20:32

pudding, actually quite often bread pudding, is

20:34

really dense by never thought to lighten

20:36

it. Adding. Beaten egg whites

20:39

and upset so that sounds super

20:41

awesome. But tell me about. The.

20:43

Lemon Curd Piece of the i Love lemon curd.

20:45

The flavor. I'm often

20:47

nervous making it because I always think.

20:50

You. Know there's a lot of acid or

20:52

Cdr controlled temperature. What if you split

20:54

or gets greedy, how do you how

20:56

to prevent that? Lemon Curd

20:59

actually is. The. First kind of baking

21:01

a Pc recipe that I remember making completely

21:03

by myself and the kitchen as like a

21:05

lid on and I think I was watching

21:07

an episode of Martha Stewart maybe Martha bake

21:09

for something like that and I saw her

21:11

may get and I thought to myself ice

21:13

i can do that and I went over

21:15

and i just some lemons and like the

21:17

with everything together and cooked it and. According

21:20

to my own memory it did turn out

21:22

but I remember the ceiling a stirring that

21:24

custard and thinking like oh my gosh am

21:26

I gonna curdle at am I going to

21:29

cook the eggs as a good at nami

21:31

smooth. So it is a type of recipe

21:33

referred to as a stirred custard because you

21:35

have this mixture of eggs and liquid typically

21:37

with a cluster that liquid is terry like

21:39

cream or milk and but in the case

21:41

of lemon curd that liquid is lemon juice

21:43

or to the lime juice or it another

21:46

citrus. So you have this

21:48

mixture of eggs and sugar and

21:50

lemon juice and you're cooking everything

21:52

together and stirring it constantly. Over

21:54

the stills sister has certain as

21:56

opposed to like a beat custard

21:58

and you are bringing up. temperature

22:00

slowly until those eggs cook and it thickens

22:02

the mixture. So there are

22:04

some telltale signs that your curd is

22:07

cooked. One of them is that

22:09

often the surface of your mixture is frothy

22:11

from whisking and that foam will kind of

22:13

subside. The mixture will subtly

22:15

turn from translucent to a little bit

22:17

more opaque. And then of course you'll

22:20

see the actual texture thicken and the

22:22

sort of classic doneness test for

22:24

curd is does it coat the back of the

22:26

spoon? And when you run your finger

22:29

across the back of the spoon does it leave

22:31

a clean sharp line? The other

22:33

way that you can really be 100% positive

22:35

if you're quite nervous is just use a

22:37

thermometer and make sure it cooks to like 175 degrees

22:40

Fahrenheit and then you know you're good.

22:43

So you start by cooking that lemming curd

22:45

and it's super tangy, it's not overly sweet

22:48

and then you set some of that aside as

22:51

your sauce for serving and then the rest of

22:53

it goes into this other custard mixture. You kind

22:55

of make a custard with a custard for

22:58

that bread mixture. And

23:01

for the bread itself, what type of bread

23:03

do you like? I think you can

23:05

use any bread. The one I call for in the

23:08

book in the recipe is challah, like

23:10

an enriched kind of eggy, very

23:12

lightly sweet bread. And

23:14

I take the crust stuff, I prefer crustless bread pudding. It depends

23:16

on kind of what you're going for but I do think it's

23:18

not as much about the flavor as it is just like the

23:21

texture. I think that it's nice to have a more

23:23

uniform texture throughout so I do remove the crust.

23:26

But anything that's kind of neutral, a

23:29

neutral slightly soft white bread is great like

23:31

a Pullman. You could use a

23:33

sourdough loaf if you wanted to and it would kind

23:35

of enhance that tanginess that you get from the

23:37

custard base. Any

23:40

other kind of like you know brioche is kind

23:42

of a classic option that's a very very rich

23:44

bread that's like super buttery. I think

23:46

it can be a little much. I think it

23:48

can make the whole thing like just a little

23:51

bit, just too rich in a way. But

23:53

if you have that on hand or you know of a

23:55

good source for brioche of course it's going to make it delicious

23:58

also. So Challah is an. I

24:00

like of an option because it's enrich,

24:02

but it's not. There's not as much

24:04

like fat than a senate as brioche,

24:07

but any kind of like white, you

24:09

know, kind of like. Soft bread

24:11

is great. For a

24:13

new Plessinger, the oven and it's

24:15

this. Past. And beautiful

24:18

and golden yellow from the lemons and

24:20

Luba brown on top and club that

24:22

on the center table and I think

24:24

that will be very exciting moment. Yeah

24:26

it has. It's like really crackly talk to

24:28

their sugar that struggled on top as it

24:30

bakes. Yeah I guess had a brown, didn't

24:32

like darkened in places and then you get

24:34

this puddle of lemon curd and it also

24:36

is like. It. On only

24:38

has the texture but it also. I love that contest between

24:40

like hot and cold and news or it's He can serve

24:43

him warm and like cold lemon curd and it's it or

24:45

colbert. Cream is great too and it's just

24:47

a really great as. Or and I think it's

24:49

It's a little unexpected for the holidays like it kind

24:51

of headset like lightness and richness of i always want

24:53

in a desert. Island or that

24:55

sound off from. What?

24:57

Are the food deserts you like in the winter? I

25:00

mean I love I think apple dessert.

25:02

They're probably in the hierarchy. Of for dessert,

25:04

they're very near the top. It's not at the

25:06

top. And love

25:08

apple dessert and I'm always looking for new

25:11

ways to bake with them. So one thing

25:13

I mean recently where I could not believe

25:15

how good it was a frequent it was.

25:17

Good nature of it turned. Out like he

25:19

doesn't get a recipe and like it's greater

25:21

than the sum of it's parts. For. United

25:23

just comes together and you're like wow, This

25:25

is incredible. I made these apple dumplings and

25:27

the name of i kind of a misnomer.

25:30

It's. Not really a dumpling at all. The

25:32

basically it is a whole apple wrapped in

25:34

pastry though. That. Makes. I

25:37

started by killing apples and then using a

25:39

melon baller to scoop out the core, but

25:41

not all the way. I scooped

25:44

out about three quarters of the core, but

25:46

I left the bottom intact so our kids

25:48

almost like a little apple cup and away.

25:50

and then I poached it in some. Me:

25:53

mostly water but i added some brown sugar

25:55

and some vanilla and like a cinnamon stick

25:57

and a little bit of butter And

26:00

poaching apples, I had never really done that before, but it

26:03

gave them the most... Yeah, poached pears, but

26:05

not... Right, exactly. Poached pears make sense,

26:07

but apples, you don't really see that. And it

26:09

gave the apples the most incredible texture where it's

26:11

like they had... They fully had their structure. They

26:14

were completely intact,

26:16

not even remotely beginning to break down,

26:18

but they worked soft. And so

26:21

I ended up... What I did was

26:23

I took that poaching liquid, I reduced it all

26:25

the way down. And when you take the ingredients,

26:27

water, brown sugar, butter,

26:29

what you end up with is like a toffee mixture. So

26:33

with a little bit of apple flavor, because the idea of

26:35

poaching is that you're softening the fruit and you're getting it

26:37

to release some of its juices, which

26:39

is going to help you maintain a more

26:41

crisp pastry when you bake them. So

26:45

I took that super reduced poaching liquid, which

26:47

basically cooks down into this toffee caramel

26:50

mixture. I started through

26:52

with some toasted walnuts that I chopped up. I

26:55

stuck them in the fruit. I took squares

26:57

of pastry. In the cup part, in that core

26:59

that you pulled out. Okay, cool. Yes,

27:01

in the hollow of the fruit where there was no core. I

27:03

put those nuts and you could use any nut. You

27:06

could use pecans, you could use almonds, anything

27:08

is good. Then I wrapped them in pastry

27:11

and lots of egg wash to keep

27:13

everything sealed. I cut squares of pastry that were

27:15

about six inches by six inches. Wrapped

27:18

them around the apples. I was using Honey

27:20

Crispy. You can use any good baking apple. I

27:23

like Pink Lady. I was using pretty small

27:25

apples because I was thinking that

27:27

they would be served individually, but it really ended up

27:30

that they were, it's like enough pastry and enough apple

27:32

that I could cut them in half. That was like,

27:34

you get this beautiful cross section. So

27:37

I wrapped them in pastry. I chilled them for a

27:39

few minutes just to get the pastry really cold. I

27:41

put them in the oven at 375. They

27:44

baked for about 40 minutes. They

27:48

got a nice egg wash and some Demerara

27:51

sugar on the outside. The

27:54

pastry was so flaky and they don't release

27:56

that much liquid because they were basically par

27:59

cooked. And the apple

28:01

texture, I failed to kind of

28:03

really adequately articulate

28:05

what the texture was like, but it's like

28:07

this silky, soft, but

28:10

perfectly intact texture that

28:12

is super spoonable. And

28:15

just like so much fun. It's like that

28:17

is the apple texture that I'm always going

28:19

for. It's like translucent and soft and spoonable,

28:21

but completely not applesauce. Right.

28:25

So I started the recipe

28:27

thinking this is going to be something that felt kind of homey,

28:29

like a baked apple. And

28:31

it just turned out so elegant. I was like,

28:33

this is a fantastic holiday dessert.

28:37

Okay. So that's awesome. Uh, we

28:39

have centerpiece desserts now, you know, a lot of

28:41

people love to bake, to give things away, little

28:43

gifts or little, you know, thanks for coming kind

28:45

of things. Um, what do

28:47

you like to do for that? Yeah. My perennial

28:49

favorite holiday cookie is

28:52

a recipe that I have in my first

28:54

cookbook dessert person, and it's my chewy

28:56

molasses cookie. It is just

28:58

hands down for me. And obviously I'm a

29:01

little biased because it's my recipe, but I

29:03

just think it is the perfect holiday cookie.

29:05

It's lightly spiced. It has black pepper in it, which I

29:07

think is kind of an interesting, black

29:10

pepper is like a warm spice, but it works really

29:12

well. Um, it has all spice. It has

29:15

ground ginger in it. So it is, it is kind of

29:17

like my version of a ginger snap a little bit, but

29:20

it has molasses and brown sugar

29:22

in it. And it just, it,

29:25

but they bake so perfectly. Like I actually baked

29:27

a double recipe of it just this past week

29:29

to bring to a holiday party and to also

29:31

store in the freezer, just in anticipation of like

29:34

baking off and having cookies to

29:36

give to people or to serve, um, from

29:38

home. So I just made

29:40

them and they looked so

29:42

much like the photo in the book, which I

29:44

didn't make, which a food stylist made. And a

29:46

friend of mine also made them and they looked

29:48

also just like the photo. And it's just really

29:50

satisfying because like, it's just so consistent how it

29:52

turns out, um, and they're

29:55

really beautiful. You roll them in sugar and they spread

29:57

out and they get kind of like crackly, crinkly on

29:59

the surface. and they are perfectly

30:01

round all the time, even if you don't

30:03

really roll them in perfect spheres. So they

30:06

are not only so delicious and chewy,

30:09

because as I mentioned, that combination of brown sugar

30:11

and molasses just keeps them really soft after they

30:13

bake. They

30:15

just look like that classic holiday

30:18

cookie. They kind of look like the cookie on a box.

30:21

Like that kind of perfect look. So,

30:24

and they're easy. It's like the

30:26

recipe and the book, you make them in a stand

30:28

mixer. I did it by hand the other day,

30:31

because I just didn't feel like getting my stand

30:33

mixer out. So they're forgiving. Yeah,

30:35

I just, yeah, it was not even, it

30:37

was on the counter. I just didn't even feel like cutting

30:39

it in and putting the paddle on it. That's

30:42

how lazy I felt, but they turned

30:44

out great. So it's just like the perfect

30:47

molasses-y spice cookie and

30:49

really, really easy and also really easy to scale

30:51

up. So as I said, I made a double

30:53

recipe. Just can't be beat

30:56

in my mind. That's amazing. Oh,

30:58

I cannot get over it. You

31:01

wrote both these books and you're like, dude,

31:04

it came out just like the picture in the movie. What

31:07

a whole lot of times. Full disclosure,

31:09

sometimes in a cookbook, it's

31:12

the ideal version of what

31:14

the dessert looks like. Yeah, it's good. Yeah,

31:16

yeah. But this is like, I guarantee like every time you make

31:18

it, this is what they're gonna look like. So

31:21

it's mostly just a note on their consistency

31:23

when baking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it.

31:27

Claire Safitz is the author of What's for Dessert?

31:29

We'll be back with more with her in a

31:31

minute. Then it's Tony Tip to Martin with the

31:33

drinks. I'm Francis Lam and

31:35

this is the Splendid Table from APM. Our

31:42

friends is Lam and this is the show for

31:44

curious cooks and eaters. We're talking desserts for the

31:46

holidays and we're with the one and the only

31:48

Claire Safitz. Get back to it with her. I

31:52

actually, I

31:54

absolutely hate going out for New Year's. Like

31:56

I've not done anything decades because I despise

31:59

it so much. It's so expensive and

32:01

it's like it's all a fresher you

32:03

have to have a great time. It's

32:06

just weird. So for

32:08

many years, I host

32:11

people on New Year's Eve. Like I just have a dinner

32:13

party on New Year's Eve and we'll hang out and we'll

32:15

turn on the TV when it's time to count down and

32:17

all that. What

32:20

should I make for dessert for New Year's Eve? Right.

32:23

Well, first of all, I'm with you. I held

32:25

on New Year's. I'm like, I don't even, the

32:27

whole concept is like so foreign to me and

32:29

bad, strange. I've maybe done it once and that

32:31

was like in my twenties. But I'm

32:33

the same. We host, we have people over,

32:35

we have friends over and we like, it's

32:37

just really an excuse to cook a kind

32:39

of over the top dinner that we wouldn't normally

32:41

cook even for like a dinner party and to

32:44

maybe use some special ingredients here and there and

32:46

make it kind of special. But, and

32:48

then half the time it's like 11 45 and everyone's like,

32:50

you know, we're good. Like, you know, going

32:52

to bed. But

32:54

I do, I love, I love New Year's cooking. I

32:56

think it's just a fun excuse to do something

32:59

a little extra special. So I do have a very

33:02

particular dessert picked out for this

33:04

occasion and it is a

33:06

French 75 jelly with grapefruit.

33:08

So here are another citrus option because citrus

33:10

is just like a gift in the wintertime,

33:12

you know, when it's cold and it's flowing

33:14

outside and you have this beautiful selection of

33:16

citrus fruits. So this uses grapefruit, which is

33:19

a fruit I love. I love grapefruit so

33:21

much. It does not work

33:23

very well when it's baked or

33:25

when it's exposed to heat. So I think the best

33:27

way to treat grapefruit is to keep it and it's,

33:29

you know, like raw, just sort

33:31

of standard form. Just juicy and sour

33:34

and a little sweet, a little bitter.

33:36

Yeah, exactly. So this is

33:38

a dessert that I designed for grapefruit

33:40

and for just what a fantastic fruit

33:42

it is. So and it's also

33:44

kind of based off my one of

33:46

my favorite cocktails, which is the French It's

33:49

a gin and champagne based cocktail. So

33:52

the recipe starts by you make a kind

33:54

of like gin simple syrup where you cook

33:57

gin. So you're driving off the alcohol. You're

34:00

not getting that alcohol burn, I

34:02

think, can sometimes obscure some of the other flavors that

34:04

are going on. And

34:06

you mix that syrup with some lemon juice, which

34:08

is also in a French 75, and

34:11

some sparkling wine. If you use, and

34:13

I wouldn't use any true

34:16

expensive champagne, use

34:19

an inexpensive sparkling wine here. And

34:22

if you use a rose sparkling, then it's

34:24

very beautiful and pinky-cued, so that's

34:26

a nice touch. And you basically

34:28

mix in a little melted

34:31

gelatin, and the whole thing

34:33

gets a nice soft wiggly set. It's

34:35

not like dummy candy texture, you know?

34:38

It's like scoopy bowl, and you

34:40

just take spoonfuls of this jelly

34:42

mixture, that by the way, if

34:45

you pour carefully, you end up suspending the bubbles

34:47

in the gelatin, so there's some effervescence to it,

34:50

which is really fun. That's

34:52

amazing. I was literally just about to ask you, oh,

34:55

with sparkling wine, what happens

34:57

to the bubbles? You can actually

34:59

make it slightly fizzy, even as a jelly. Yes,

35:02

I mean, most of the bubbles do

35:04

kind of dissipate as it sets, but

35:06

if you pour carefully, and if

35:08

you start with the wine cold, that's important. It should

35:10

already be chilled when you're going to assemble the dessert,

35:12

because then it's going to set faster, because obviously gelatin

35:15

sets when it's cold. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

35:17

you do end up suspending some of the bubbles, which is not

35:19

only a great eating experience, because you

35:22

get that little pop, but it

35:24

looks so cool. You get the frozen

35:26

bubbles, kind of. Oh, cool. Yeah,

35:29

it's really cool. So it's just

35:31

so easy. It's served individually, which I

35:33

think can also feel a little fancy

35:35

if you have cool glasses and everyone

35:37

gets their own little coupe glass or

35:41

a little dessert bowl of this

35:43

dessert. So you just take scoops

35:45

of this jelly and you combine it

35:47

with segments of grapefruit, and

35:50

in restaurants speak, they're superhems

35:52

of grapefruit. It's basically where

35:54

you take a knife and you cut away all

35:56

of the peel and piss around the fruit. So

35:59

you just have... have the

36:01

exposed citrus, and then you cut

36:03

down in between each membrane to

36:06

just, so you're just separating out

36:08

pure segments, pure grapefruit. The

36:12

flesh without the chewy membrane of each segment.

36:14

Right, none of that. So they look really

36:17

beautiful, and there's something really

36:19

luxurious about not only eating the

36:22

jelly, but having that much fruit

36:24

without the work of the membranes

36:26

and everything to get around it. So I

36:29

think of that as being something kind of luxurious.

36:32

Yeah, that is definitely a thank you moment. Thank

36:34

you for cutting the fruitless way. And it's just,

36:37

you have the champagne component and the

36:40

individual glasses, and

36:44

it's also kind of a light dessert, which

36:47

I'm always for, but I don't want it to feel

36:49

austere. I don't want to have to, I

36:52

don't want a dessert where then it's like, where's

36:55

the real dessert after that? Like

36:57

if it's like, oh, is it ice cream? Right,

36:59

right. Like where's the cake? You

37:01

know, like I don't want to only have that,

37:03

but there's something that also feels luxurious and rich

37:05

about it too. Not rich in that like there's

37:08

fat in it, but just, it's very satisfying. But

37:10

satisfying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds so

37:12

cool. Yeah, it's the perfect New Year's

37:15

Eve celebratory dessert and fun to

37:17

eat. It's the winner. Oh,

37:19

that sounds great. Well thank you for solving my

37:21

New Year's Eve dessert part

37:23

of the menu. And very easy to make

37:25

ahead, by the way. I mean, you have to make it ahead. You have

37:27

to let time for it to set. Yeah. So

37:29

you can just kind of like set up the jelly. You

37:31

can suprem the grapefruit and put them in a container in

37:33

the fridge. And then all you have to do is assemble,

37:35

which will take you like two minutes. Terrific.

37:39

Well, thank you so much, Claire. I'm excited

37:41

for these and happy holidays to you. Thank

37:43

you. I'm about to go start some

37:45

baking, which I'm super excited about. And

37:47

obviously I love talking about desserts and the

37:49

holidays is like my favorite time. So it's truly a

37:52

pleasure. Thank you for having me. Claire

37:56

Saffitz is the author of the award-winning

37:58

cookbook, Dessert Person. And her latest

38:01

bestseller, What's for a dessert? You

38:03

can find your recipes for those chewy

38:05

molasses, spice cookies, and for that soufflé

38:07

lemon bread pudding. I'll spend the

38:09

table tonight. So,

38:17

I'm not much of a drinker. I don't drink at

38:19

all. When my friend

38:21

Tony Tipton Martin decided to write a

38:23

cocktail book, I jumped at the chance

38:25

to work on it with her. That's because

38:28

what Tony does is write recipes that

38:30

are inspired by, or in some cases,

38:32

directly drawn from, the 200-year-old

38:34

canon of cookbooks written by black

38:36

people. She unearthed these recipes, many

38:38

of which we enjoy today, and

38:40

shares the histories of how they

38:42

were invented by or mastered by

38:45

African-American cooks through the ages. The

38:48

latest book is Juke Joints, Jazz Clubs

38:50

and Juice, Cocktails from

38:52

Two Centuries of African-American Cookbooks.

38:56

Hey, Tony, it's great to see you. Hi,

38:58

Francis, it is such a thrill to be here with you.

39:01

Obviously, I'm biased, but I've been so happy

39:03

to see all the terrific response to the

39:05

book. And I know you've

39:07

always talked about, you've always written about how

39:09

your work is for the ancestors, but what

39:12

has been the most gratifying thing for you as you've been

39:15

talking about this book with people? Well,

39:17

I love that question because the

39:19

other day, I posted kind of

39:21

irreverently, but also funnily, that the

39:24

ancestors were doing the jitterbug right

39:26

now because this book

39:28

is doing things that

39:30

I had not imagined. And

39:32

one of the main things that

39:35

it's doing is drawing new audiences

39:37

to the history of the ancestors

39:39

because people are interested in cocktail

39:41

making. Yeah, I love that. And

39:43

you have all these recipes that you have either

39:46

remade from these historic recipes or that

39:48

are adopted from people who are

39:50

working today that you admire. I

39:53

have to imagine also means that at all your

39:55

holiday parties that you're going to, you're going to be expected

39:57

to shake up some drinks now. whole

40:00

new pressure upon me. Yeah, yeah.

40:03

It's not just, you know, Auntie Tony's bringing the cake. It's

40:05

Auntie Tony's gonna make the, it's

40:08

gonna shake up the drink. Well, listen,

40:10

I write about the coffee liqueur recipe.

40:13

I explain not only the historical relevance

40:15

of people of color making Kahlua, but

40:18

I also have this tradition that

40:20

I created of making Kahlua cinnamon

40:22

rolls. And I make

40:24

them at Christmas. And originally, the idea

40:27

was you didn't get them unless you came

40:29

to our house for Christmas morning. And,

40:32

you know, I did that when my kids were little. It

40:34

was a way to let them be able to stay in

40:36

their jammies and play with their toys. And then all of

40:38

the adults could hang out and we'd have these amazing cinnamon

40:40

rolls oozing with this

40:43

decadent Kahlua syrup. And

40:45

so of course that's a tradition everybody's gonna

40:47

be looking for, but now I've actually suggested

40:49

that people make Kahlua liqueur and give it

40:52

as a holiday gift. Oh, yeah,

40:54

yeah. I suspect in

40:56

addition to all of the cocktails and the

40:58

food I'm supposed to make, I will also

41:00

now be putting aside little bottles that

41:04

are, you know, I live on the

41:06

internet searching for gift size bottles to

41:08

put my new coffee liqueur in. Yeah.

41:11

Well, I've been asking you a guest about like what

41:13

a great holiday gift, so check. Okay,

41:15

but I want to talk to you about eggnog because

41:18

I, you know, I don't drink

41:20

anyway, but eggnog in particular has been something

41:22

I've always struggled with, the taste, the flavor.

41:25

But when you wrote about it, I got

41:27

that context that made me go, maybe I want

41:29

to try a little eggnog again. Tell us about

41:31

your eggnog recipe and some of the

41:34

folks who have influenced it. Well,

41:36

it was fun to trace the history

41:38

of eggnog back to Tom Bullock and

41:41

Julian Anderson, two men who published recipe

41:43

books in the early 20th century. And

41:46

they both had these recipes for eggnog, but

41:49

they described them as a bowl of eggnog.

41:51

So I carried on that tradition in this

41:53

book by calling my recipe a bowl of

41:55

eggnog because eggnog is a

41:57

classic Christmas tradition, but people are all.

42:00

also, I think because of

42:02

their concerns for food safety and

42:04

maybe just because we're all time

42:06

strapped, but everybody's kind of reaching

42:08

for that carton of pre-made processed

42:10

eggnog and then doctoring it up,

42:12

right? But this recipe is rooted

42:14

in a tradition of something called

42:16

the Tom and Jerry cocktail where

42:19

they actually make an egg-based paste

42:21

and then dilute that with

42:23

spirits that are added to it. And

42:25

one of the authors in the collection, Lena

42:29

Richard offered two versions. She

42:31

offered a hot version and a cold

42:33

version. And the hot version serves the

42:35

purpose of actually tempering the eggs for

42:37

you. Yeah. So in the book, you

42:40

do reference the Lena Richard recipe and

42:42

she was in New Orleans. Tell us

42:44

about her. Well, you know,

42:46

she's one of my favorites in the

42:48

history of African American foodways because in

42:51

1939, she self-published a collection

42:53

of her recipes and she called

42:55

the book Lena Richard's New

42:57

Orleans Cookbook. And she actually had

43:00

a television show on local TV

43:02

15 years before Julia

43:04

Child appeared on television. So it was

43:06

just so fun. I do too. I

43:08

just love being able to say that

43:10

there was a black woman cooking on

43:12

television before this iconic person that we

43:14

revere so much Julia Child. She

43:17

owned a restaurant. She packaged food for

43:19

sale that she shipped and sold. But

43:22

here's the thing about her cookbook. She

43:25

publishes this thing in 1939 and

43:27

then James Beard discovers

43:29

it. And he proposes to

43:31

Houghton Mifflin, his publisher, that

43:34

they reissue this book on her behalf,

43:36

which they agree to do. What's

43:39

interesting about that reissue is

43:41

that when the book appears, her

43:44

photograph, like a cameo image of

43:46

herself with pearls, I believe, that

43:49

picture is removed from the book. And

43:52

the book title is changed to the New

43:54

Orleans cookbook by Lena Richard. So already

43:57

we start to see the ways that African-American

44:00

presence in recipes

44:03

and published cookbooks is

44:05

marginalized. Yeah, it's like where she

44:08

becomes a little bit more secondary. Absolutely. Yeah,

44:10

there's someone made a choice there. But

44:12

let's go to a more festive recipe,

44:15

although as we know, history is not

44:17

always festive as celebratory. Your

44:20

pomegranate demerara rum punch. Well,

44:23

can I pick up on something you said

44:25

there? Because I think that's really important for

44:27

our listeners to understand that people

44:29

think that when we talk about history, it's

44:32

got to be a downer. It's got to

44:34

be a sad story. And

44:36

what I hope people are going to start to

44:38

understand about this work is that we

44:41

do have to tell you the history. And in some

44:43

cases, it can be a little

44:45

challenging to hear. Maybe it's going to be

44:47

a little confrontational. Maybe it's going to change

44:49

some perceptions of things that you thought you

44:52

knew. And that's all

44:54

OK, because at the end of the day, we're

44:56

all coming to an agreement that

44:59

this is history worth remembering. These are

45:01

people who we want to know their

45:03

names. We want to mention their names

45:06

when we make the dishes that they're

45:08

attached to. And we want to celebrate

45:10

them for now being recognized.

45:12

So I'm saying that as I head into

45:15

the history of rum. Yes.

45:18

Because you know that that is

45:20

already a complicated one. It's

45:23

a complicated story. And so what we'll do

45:25

this time is rather than go there first,

45:28

let's talk about the modern era. Shannon

45:30

Mustafur is an amazing bartender,

45:33

bar educator, rum

45:36

expert. And she's

45:38

really taken a whole new approach to tiki

45:40

drinks. And we think about tiki as these

45:42

syrupy, sweet island things

45:44

that have little paper umbrellas in

45:47

them. And she wants us

45:49

to have a whole other appreciation for what

45:52

we're doing with our spirits as it relates

45:54

to these tiki type

45:56

drinks. And so using dimerara

45:59

rum from. Grenada is a

46:01

way of focusing our attention on

46:03

the unique distilling practices that are

46:05

regional and draws

46:07

our attention to the expertise

46:09

that people of color have

46:12

in understanding terroir and particular

46:14

flavors that emerge from a

46:16

region. So we learn

46:19

about that rum and its

46:21

flavor notes that they're smoky

46:24

and very nuanced and

46:26

they're going to give your rum

46:28

punch a whole another dimension rather

46:30

than the thing that we've

46:32

come to know through that sweet little poem that

46:36

originally was created to help people remember

46:38

the portions of how to make the

46:40

drink. And it goes like this, it's

46:43

one part sour which could mean

46:45

lime juice, two parts sweet

46:48

which could be simple syrup or

46:50

grenadine kind of syrup, three

46:53

parts strong which is usually rum,

46:56

and four parts which

46:58

generally has meant fruity juices.

47:02

And tell us about the recipe you actually

47:04

came up with, the pomegranate remerara rum punch.

47:07

Well one of the things that was really fun

47:09

to integrate into the classic

47:11

recipe for rum punch was Matthew

47:15

Rayford's Gullah Geechee pomegranate

47:17

shine. So he's got

47:19

a variation of moonshine that got

47:21

me thinking about making homemade grenadine.

47:24

And Matthew macerates

47:27

whole pomegranates in ginger and ever

47:29

clear and I'd never experienced ever

47:31

clear it's like this hundred proof

47:34

clear vodka type high

47:36

high octane. Right, you can light

47:39

it on fire for sure. Right, and

47:41

so he turns it into a very simple

47:43

cordial that he ages and you

47:45

get this beautiful vivid red spirit from

47:48

it. And so it got me thinking about

47:50

how I could make my own non-alcoholic

47:53

pomegranate syrup. Yeah and

47:55

you take pomegranate juice and

47:57

you reduce it with sugar in the you

48:00

a splash of pomegranate molasses to

48:03

fortify the pomegranate flavor, right? Yes,

48:05

that's right. And you also can add

48:07

an orange twist. You can add flavors

48:10

as you see fit, but the idea

48:12

is that grenadine itself is a pomegranate

48:14

syrup. And bar

48:16

professionals use simple syrup in

48:19

place of sugar because it helps

48:21

bring the drink together faster. They

48:24

don't have to stir as much to dilute the

48:26

sugar by making a simple syrup.

48:29

And in this case, adding pomegranate

48:31

juice and brown, rich

48:33

cane sugar gives you some hints

48:35

of molasses that adding that little

48:38

splash of pomegranate molasses just amplifies.

48:41

Yeah. And with that demerara rum you talked

48:43

about, that sort of smokier rum, I

48:46

can imagine those flavors together. Well,

48:48

you know, I love hearing you

48:50

talk about how you came to this recipe because I

48:52

feel like it is so indicative of your work. Like

48:55

back when we first started working together, you told

48:57

me like the mission of

48:59

your work was to bring together the past and the

49:01

present, but also really show, you know,

49:03

it's not just, oh, black people have

49:05

this innate ability. It's about competence

49:08

and skill and innovation and

49:10

creativity. And I love

49:12

that you just showed us that. So, you

49:15

know, I appreciate you so much and

49:17

happy holidays to you. Oh,

49:19

Francis, thank you so much for having me.

49:21

Happy holidays. Honey,

49:25

Tipton Martin is the author of Duke Joints

49:27

Jazz Clubs and Juice, Cocktails from

49:30

Two Centuries of African American Cookbooks.

49:32

You can find their recipe for

49:34

pomegranate rum punch at splendentable.org. And

49:38

that is our show for the week. If

49:41

you're having a beautiful holiday season, you're really

49:43

sharing it with the people that you love.

49:46

Talk to you next week.

49:49

See you next week. The

50:00

technical producer Jennifer Leacy, producer

50:02

Eric Romero, digital producer James

50:05

Hapu, and management producer. Subscribe

50:08

to this podcast wherever you have mode. Take some time

50:10

to read with a review. I want to hear what

50:12

you think. Alright, Francis Lamb and

50:14

I'll see you soon.