0:00

I'm Francis Lam and

0:02

this is The Splendid

0:04

Table from APM. Sola

0:14

Elweili has been many things in her career.

0:17

She was the pastry chef of one of my

0:19

favourite restaurants in my neighbourhood, which I know doesn't

0:21

matter a whole lot to a whole lot of

0:23

people, but it's where I learned that she was

0:25

brilliant and maybe a little bit devious. But

0:28

after leaving the restaurant world, she

0:30

became a writer, recipe developer, and

0:33

eventually a bona fide cooking video

0:35

superstar. At Serious Eats, Bon

0:37

Appetit, in the Babish Culinary Universe, and

0:39

now at the New York Times. She

0:42

makes ingenious recipes, indulges in

0:44

her deep sense of nerdiness by cooking

0:47

ancient historical dishes. She teaches

0:49

her audience how to take pro-techniques and make

0:51

them feel completely comfortable at home. And

0:54

I knew people loved to work, but I knew

0:56

it was really serious. When I saw one of

0:58

her fans once post, quote, I would

1:00

lay down my life for Sola. And

1:04

now Sola is a best-selling cookbook

1:06

author with a book called Start

1:08

Here that I can assure you

1:10

was engineered for maximum impact. At

1:13

5 pounds, 600 plus pages,

1:16

and step-by-step photos for every

1:18

recipe, it's like a culinary school

1:20

on your shelf. And we are

1:22

spending the whole hour with her this week talking

1:25

about that book, taking your questions

1:28

and more. Hey,

1:31

Sola, it's great to see you. Hey, good

1:33

to see you too. You know, so

1:35

many people know you from your cooking videos, and

1:38

I so love how you've

1:40

done so many different types of videos, and they really

1:42

kind of showcase your personality,

1:44

your life, you know, from

1:46

your love of teaching people to cook. You

1:49

know, I love the ones where you work with

1:51

your husband, Ham, and, you know, certainly showing off

1:53

your deep nerdiness for

1:55

history and just like nerdiness more generally.

1:58

But you know, it's a great book. Me that I have

2:01

followed your work for so long and we've known each other

2:03

for a little while. but. I. Don't

2:05

actually know. How you got

2:07

into food and cooking? So. Had

2:09

that happen. Love. We're going to go

2:11

back. To

2:14

say get back spot on. I.

2:17

Love! I took an analysis billie get

2:19

sued so that was the beginning. Live

2:21

on is a very good cook in.

2:25

A similar him with her in the kitchen.

2:27

I'm not just as I like cooking, but

2:30

also because it was the one place where

2:32

we really got along cause a Mile island

2:34

sir. I didn't totally

2:36

always get along with my family and

2:38

ah, this is a very conservative but

2:41

the one place where we could put

2:43

everything aside and click was in the

2:45

kitchen. So that

2:47

was really the start. I guess

2:49

it's when I realized that you can really connect

2:51

with anybody over food. But I didn't. Never

2:54

thought it was kind of the a career that is him

2:56

and and I'm. A little this hundred. And

2:58

you like record? Yeah I said. It. Is

3:00

I like cooking And like as Santa

3:02

says about. Having a restaurant in

3:05

the same li is fantasize about being

3:07

in a band. Like

3:11

you don't really think? You're going to

3:13

ever get a grammy uses pretend to receive

3:15

one in the bathroom as sir. Thank you!

3:18

So here's one hour. Gotta could have done

3:20

it without you. May. Amazing

3:22

producers. And. God

3:24

said Godzilla! Thank God. I

3:27

especially because my family so conservative I

3:29

didn't think food was gonna be a

3:31

career but. I.

3:34

I went to school for economics. I

3:36

really hated. It. And then I

3:38

dropped out of. I did

3:41

eventually go back. I have to say

3:43

that other records, surveillance and uncles no

3:45

no doubt of family who's listening else

3:47

that I'm yeah, I really really hate

3:49

is. Anything besides

3:51

suit like it's the only thing

3:53

that I did. they at that

3:55

actually wasn't miserable and I selling

3:57

that could be good at sell

3:59

a. I

4:01

did work in like

4:03

assorted. Food

4:06

related jobs well as in schools you

4:08

know, like. Some. Chain restaurants,

4:11

coffee shops. ah you know stuff like

4:13

that think they do just to get

4:15

through school for for harm that I'd.

4:18

I'd. Really wanted to get into

4:20

Lakes. Fine dining. And

4:23

I think after I graduated I was

4:25

like super last. I'm really depressed

4:27

and graduated in two thousand and eight.

4:31

So like not the bedside though. Not

4:33

the best times. I just like backs back into

4:36

like. All the restaurant jobs I

4:38

was working at a pub and I really

4:40

just. I really liked the.

4:43

Restaurant environment, Which a

4:45

lot of people hate that it's is really.

4:47

Worked for me. I

4:49

saw you on that I mean like I

4:51

the some were or in the with I

4:53

for had emotional connection the food from an

4:56

early years but never thought it could be

4:58

a career never thought it would be a

5:00

professional pass on the same thing Rc A

5:02

while in college us are working at restaurants

5:04

and the mugger catering service sister. Him.

5:07

And exactly same things are can pay my rent. But.

5:10

Did love the environment and love the

5:12

converter and yes I think we all

5:14

know that can be super problematic him

5:16

be you know that the difference between

5:18

something being. Harsh and toss

5:20

and you feel complete with your

5:22

team because you told us through together

5:25

and an environment that feels. Abusive

5:27

or fuels you know is that people

5:30

are being taken advantage of. You know?

5:33

That's continue on right? So it's really just

5:35

depends on the place or even the day

5:37

where where'd your work life so in that

5:39

manner but like yeah I'd have my space

5:41

you which is like it was really hard

5:43

and I've. There. Are days when with i can't

5:45

use a more nurse and they days when like on with I

5:47

love this. Year. Is. But.

5:49

I knew I wanted to. go

5:51

be unlike the cheesecake factory nasa esa

5:53

is it or go beyond getting fired

5:55

from that she says as a side

5:57

i really wanted to get into signed

6:00

and because I like grew up watching

6:02

that PBS show Great Chefs

6:04

of America. Great Chefs of

6:06

the World. And I really

6:08

wanted to be one of those chefs with

6:11

a paper hat making soufflés

6:13

and stuff. I like Santa's size

6:15

about having a French restaurant. So

6:18

I wanted to get into

6:20

fine dining. I read about this story that Grant

6:22

Nachos got his job at the French Laundry by

6:25

basically harassing Thomas Keller. So

6:29

Grant is the chef's owner of

6:32

Alinea, which is one of

6:34

the great restaurants in the world and Thomas

6:36

Keller at the French Laundry. Yeah, totally.

6:39

Yeah, so that was my initial tactic. I'm

6:42

just going to go harass people. Yeah,

6:44

I actually had a stack

6:47

of resumes and I

6:49

walked up and down Ventura Boulevard because I

6:51

thought that was a fancy restaurant at the

6:53

time. I'm from the Valley.

6:55

I didn't know, you know, I

6:57

grew up going out back to Steakhouse.

6:59

I thought that was fine dining. So

7:01

I didn't realize that Ventura Boulevard restaurants

7:03

weren't fine dining, but in my mind

7:05

at the time they were. So I

7:07

walked up and down Ventura Boulevard, harassing

7:09

all the chefs while they're trying to get ready for service, trying

7:11

to get a job did not really

7:13

work. I

7:16

even asked, I was like, please, let me wash

7:18

some dishes for free. It totally, that did not

7:20

click for me. So I ended up going to

7:22

culinary school. It felt like

7:25

a good stepping stone

7:28

into fine dining, which

7:30

it was. I firmly

7:33

don't recommend culinary school to anybody, but it's

7:35

tough because

7:40

trying to get into a lot

7:42

of these spaces, having something like that

7:44

on your resume really does help. But

7:47

most chefs don't do background

7:50

checks, so you should probably just lie. I

8:03

want to save the young people, you know,

8:06

from you're gonna get so much debt

8:08

from these schools and then just die in it because

8:11

you make $8 an hour working in a restaurant. There

8:14

is a real disconnect. I think we

8:16

could have a whole conversation just about this for sure.

8:19

But anyway, I definitely want to talk to you about your

8:21

book because your book, you know,

8:23

I don't know if you were intending the anti-cornerist

8:25

school thing to be like, you can just buy

8:28

my book because my book is

8:30

basically a culinary school between two covers. My

8:33

book was inspired by how much I hated

8:36

culinary school. Yeah,

8:38

nobody go to culinary school. Don't get into

8:41

debt. Definitely don't take out a

8:43

loan. You're gonna be like, oh, it's just $20,000. And

8:45

then before you know it, you're buried. For

8:48

$40. Buried alive. You could

8:50

have solas entire culinary school in your brain. Yeah,

8:53

boom. Wow. Such a great deal. Yeah.

8:56

Okay. I'm not going

8:58

to go into that, but we also have a lot of callers who really want to talk to you. So

9:01

we have Eric on the line. And

9:04

let's check in with Eric. Is this live?

9:06

This is live. Whoa. He's a real

9:09

human. Hello. Hey, Eric.

9:11

Hi. Hi, Eric. Thanks

9:14

for the call. Well, I can get prize

9:16

winning black rabbits from a local farmer here

9:18

in Broad Run, Virginia. Oh, wow. With the

9:20

carcasses weighing about five pounds. Oh, wow. Big

9:23

ones. I tried using Elmer Fudd's

9:25

Haas and Fesper recipe, but it

9:28

was pretty tough. And so what's

9:30

the best way to cook rabbit, especially

9:32

deboning the ribs and spine, but still

9:34

being able to get them. Oh,

9:37

wow. Okay. So,

9:39

Sola, I don't recall you having a rabbit

9:41

chapter in the book, but being

9:44

a lover of fine dining, have

9:47

you cooked with rabbit before? I

9:50

have. And I think of

9:52

rabbit as just like really difficult chicken. Like

9:57

first get really good at chicken

9:59

and then. A lot of the anatomy is

10:01

the same. A rabbit's body is

10:03

just longer, but you break it down in

10:05

a similar way. You'll find the joints in

10:07

the same way. It has a

10:09

lot of the same issues that you have when

10:11

you're cooking chicken, but exaggerated. In

10:14

a chicken, the breast meat is very lean

10:16

and the dark meat is a little bit tougher, but

10:20

that contrast is leveled up in a

10:23

rabbit. White meat on the

10:25

rabbit gets really dry really fast, and while

10:27

the leg meat can be more

10:29

tough, because rabbits are running around. They get a

10:32

lot of power in their muscles. Yeah,

10:34

they live a life. So

10:36

I think the best way to cook a rabbit is to break

10:38

it down. Separate

10:41

it. I don't like to cook it

10:43

whole, because I do find that it's harder to

10:45

get really good out of both

10:47

the light and the dark meat. So I would

10:49

break it down. I recommend being really delicate with

10:51

the loin. I like

10:54

to keep the bones in while cooking,

10:56

because I feel like it just kind of

10:58

prevents it from overcooking. And for

11:00

that, go for something more

11:03

gentle, like a sear, maybe

11:06

not grill. Focus

11:09

on stovetop sear butter-based situation, just until

11:11

you get to know how to cook

11:14

that loin better. And then the legs,

11:16

I would definitely brace. Give

11:18

it some time to get really nice and tender. And

11:21

always dry brine. Everything

11:24

should always be dry brine, especially rabbit, because it

11:26

does have these extra fun

11:28

challenges. Oh, interesting. So do you

11:30

mean just salt it as

11:32

if you were seasoning it to cook, but then let it

11:34

hang out in the fridge overnight before you actually cook it?

11:37

Uh-huh, yeah, yeah. Cover it in a nice layer

11:39

of salt. Pop it on a rack, throw

11:41

it in the fridge, and then that salt's

11:43

going to be drawn out from the moisture in

11:45

the meat. Form a concentrated brine

11:47

on the surface where it gets sucked back

11:50

in, seasons the meat, tenderizes the muscles, breaks

11:52

down the fat. It's going to just make

11:54

it a little bit more foolproof. Also,

11:57

oh, whenever.

12:00

I'm not sure what to do with something that kind of reminds

12:02

me of chicken just fry it There's

12:07

really no I mean, okay people

12:10

gonna get on my case about this There is such a

12:12

thing as bad fried chicken But like I've never seen a

12:14

chicken like a fried chicken so bad that wasn't like Actually

12:17

like set on fire or burned that

12:19

I wasn't like I was sad to

12:22

eat that I

12:24

guess that's a fair approach,

12:26

but I would say this about the loin The

12:30

white meat I think It

12:33

is very chickeny for sure, but I don't think it's

12:35

exactly the same as chicken So if you're getting these

12:37

wonderful rabbits and you really want to highlight the fact

12:40

that you're eating rabbit and not chicken I would think

12:42

for the for you know, just in

12:44

general I would do sort

12:47

of more mild-mannered Accompanements

12:49

and and cooking techniques right like so like

12:52

you said dry brine the breast or the

12:54

loin And then you can

12:56

like sear it and then like baste it with butter

12:58

So cook it somewhat gently and really just kind of

13:00

enjoy the flavor of the rabbit that

13:02

way to my mind like I

13:05

would just enjoy It for what it

13:07

is and like light vegetables Spring

13:09

vegetables would be super nice but

13:12

the legs I do like a really

13:14

nice braised rabbit leg with like mushrooms

13:18

bacon some stock

13:22

onions and You

13:24

know braise them to a tender and serve that with pasta

13:26

like fresh pasta. I think it's super

13:28

nice. Mmm Hacking me

13:31

hungry now great. Well, thank

13:33

you so much. Thank you. Thanks for the call Eric.

13:35

Talk to you later. Bye. Bye We'll

13:39

be back with more of our conversation with

13:41

Sola at Whaley author of Stark here Francis

13:44

lamb and this is a splendid table I'm

13:55

Francis lamb and this is a show for curious We're

13:58

spending time today was one of the models stars

14:00

of the culinary world, Sola L.

14:02

Whaley. Let's get back to it with her. You

14:06

were a pastry chef at first, weren't you? No,

14:09

I was savory. Oh, okay. I tried to have

14:11

savory. But then how did you turn into a

14:13

pastry? Because that's just what happened back

14:15

then. It feels

14:17

like I was in the kitchen such a long time ago

14:20

because it has changed so much in the last like 15

14:22

years. But when I started, there was

14:24

a lot of times where I was the only girl, so

14:27

they would just be like, Oh, just

14:29

go make a cake. You can do

14:31

that. Right? Which, you know,

14:34

to their surprise, I couldn't at the time.

14:37

I remember I was externing at

14:40

Celle Posto. I was

14:42

on the line, which is like

14:44

their, yeah, it's a fancy Italian

14:46

place that doesn't exist anymore. Yeah,

14:48

because of the controversy. You

14:53

guys can look it up. It's fun. No, I was

14:56

working on like the soggy line, which is where you

14:58

make all these little snacks. Like we made like little,

15:03

what's our ancini? Yeah, like little fried

15:05

rice balls and stuff. Yeah.

15:07

And then and some chickpea things

15:10

I barely remember, but they

15:13

were short on pastry. So they just

15:15

assumed because I was a girl that I knew how

15:17

to make shoe. And then they

15:19

just had a shoe.

15:22

And I had never made a

15:25

girl girl. Yeah, I didn't even

15:27

know what it was. They gave me this recipe.

15:29

And they're like, Okay, go make 4000 patties shoe

15:31

in a tilt skillet, which

15:34

I had not done before. So I

15:37

just wasted like 80 eggs.

15:40

You know, so you shouldn't assume you should

15:42

assume nobody knows how to do anything. But

15:44

yeah, so that's really how I got into

15:46

pastry. I just kept getting thrown at it.

15:49

And I did like it very much.

15:52

So I rolled with it, you

15:54

know, sometimes you just roll with the punches and it

15:56

ended up being really fun. And I

15:58

think it kind of gave me a leg up because now I

16:00

feel comfortable with both and did

16:02

you know the book is half pastry?

16:04

I didn't know that Whoa,

16:07

I'd be three hundred pages

16:09

of pastry So,

16:13

I know you just mentioned, you know working on a

16:15

tilt skillet which is you know a kiddie pool Thing

16:19

that you cook in in a commercial

16:21

environment, but like You

16:24

don't use those anymore and actually I think

16:26

that brings us to our next caller. Hello

16:29

Hey, May, where are you calling from? Hey? I'm

16:32

calling from Port Angeles, Washington.

16:35

Hi, May. I'm Fred on what would you like

16:37

to talk about? Yeah, so I have

16:39

a quick question I'm

16:41

just wondering what appliances or

16:44

kitchen tools do you both

16:46

consider must-have for us amateur

16:48

chefs out here? Okay,

16:51

so well, I think when you're starting out

16:53

you could pretty you could get away without

16:55

having anything that you need to plug in

16:58

Hmm you can I think

17:01

in the beginning all you really need

17:03

is I recommend a solid cast iron

17:06

skillet And

17:08

I get to know how to season it. It's

17:11

very affordable like 20 bucks You can

17:13

get a 10 inch cast iron skillet

17:15

and pretty much cook anything in it as

17:17

well as a Dutch oven which They

17:20

what if you're buying a new Dutch oven, it

17:22

is very expensive. So I've actually never bought a

17:24

new Dutch oven very

17:26

easy to find use Dutch

17:29

ovens at like thrift stores or even you can

17:31

you could get a new Dutch oven at like

17:33

a Ross or

17:35

Marshalls, that's like the last

17:37

season's color. Oh sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's

17:40

super And it's like so affordable. So

17:42

don't be intimidated by like the $300 Dutch oven

17:45

It doesn't need to be that way and a

17:47

cutting board a cutting board and a knife I

17:51

Believe that is all you need and you

17:53

can cook most things with like cutting board

17:55

knife Dutch oven Skillet.

17:57

Oh, of course some spoons, but you Don't

18:00

even worry about appliances like you could get

18:02

away without a blender or Kitchenaid. I don't

18:04

even own a rice cooker. It'll be okay.

18:08

I erred on. Yeah,

18:11

this is my. Only.

18:14

Person. All exception to that is I

18:16

can't live without my rice cooker. I can

18:18

cook rice on the cylinder with the oven

18:20

but I just feel like I'm doing something

18:23

wrong to my ancestors of it'll have rice

18:25

cooker so that's that's my own Only beef

18:27

with us I. Am privileged did not

18:29

have a rice. Cooker. Francis I don't

18:31

know you're talking about anybody who's better

18:33

as in China since what ten thousand

18:35

years and can the thousand bc before

18:37

white people that our electricity we figured

18:40

out of years I'm at that are

18:42

just take him as the other. As

18:47

I but I I fully agree. I mean

18:49

actually I feel bad that are no pigeonholed

18:51

myself as like Hulu on Chinese I should

18:54

talk about a walk and like I do

18:56

have a lot but I see. I've

18:59

rarely use my box because I

19:01

I. I put everything in a

19:03

cast iron skillet. And

19:06

Saucepans. I do. I do really

19:08

love my saucepans. I'm.

19:10

For saucepans like I'd love my

19:13

look. I bought this thing on

19:15

sale once in a department store.

19:17

I was in my one. I

19:19

was a maybe twenty five. had

19:21

the thing for. Many.

19:24

More than twenty years and it was

19:26

a little one court. I'm

19:28

like all cloud saucepan had never owned a

19:30

sick all clad on the com a garlic

19:32

and by an ox had things only thirty

19:34

dollars on sale like what do you do

19:36

with the one court saucepan? I love that

19:38

saucepan. I use it. Almost.

19:41

Daily. Anything on to

19:43

cook myself I can pretty much in cut

19:45

in a one courts or said he supports

19:47

amid rising slate men with saucepan like. That's

19:50

amazing. A small saucepan is so

19:52

useful. I slowly heads. Making.

19:56

Rice not in a race. That the Genesis I

19:58

didn't I did do the other day. Echo

20:00

Do anything. But money rice and my friend Crisper

20:02

was like you don't use a rice cooker

20:04

above money right now you're funny my ancestors

20:06

motif there so I did bacsik I didn't

20:08

make the bus my the rice and in

20:10

the my court saucepan that of what is

20:12

the would you have that you're like is

20:14

this the right thing is is the wrong

20:16

thing or would you feel like you're missing.

20:20

I think it right now What

20:22

I'm saying is. An.

20:24

Ivy League. I'm missing a really good

20:27

like nice side. I have a saucepan.

20:29

I have a cast iron skillet that's

20:31

a little. New for me. It's one

20:33

of figuring out. I had a season

20:35

and would love any tips or tricks

20:37

there. Ah, But.

20:40

Yeah I think what I'm missing is is just

20:42

a really good nice. If

20:45

you have any recommendations. Will.

20:47

I don't. I don't think you need

20:49

a full set because I see like

20:51

Visto sets the is easily don't end

20:53

up using most of the knives. I

20:55

think you go for assess, assess. A

20:58

Surrey did. And of

21:01

and appearing or a petty and he's a

21:03

pretty much do everything I prefer a petty

21:05

know which is like. Six. To

21:07

eight inches long versus a period which

21:09

is morally four inches because you can

21:12

sign of use it for butcher exists

21:14

meets it can do a lot on

21:16

and then for the chef's knife it

21:18

really i believe assesses is what. You

21:22

feel comfortable cutting with I'm so

21:24

it doesn't have to be either.

21:26

The German. Eat.

21:28

Eat new like wrapped up in

21:31

a bag. Very fancy. Know yet

21:33

it is. Start, start, Start simple

21:35

and I think you should aim

21:37

for whatever nice you feel comfortable

21:39

sharpening because online slow down no

21:41

matter. What? Kind of nice. You get it

21:43

will get. Don't see? want to focus on something you

21:45

can. You. Can comfortably sharpen. Up.

21:47

The hopeful thing is. Yeah.

21:50

So I I I must little bit disappointed

21:52

sometimes because like I'm. A. I'm

21:54

like a very materialistic person, but I have a little

21:56

bit of like. I

21:59

have a varies. all like collectors kind of

22:01

like side to me like I'd love to

22:03

get more of these and wouldn't it be

22:05

nice to get something nice and new and

22:08

and you know I'm like oh I cook so I should buy kitchens

22:10

I'm like you know every time I buy a

22:13

new knife like I don't need that I buy

22:15

a new pan I don't need that I don't

22:17

use it I use my one quart saucepan I

22:20

use a five quart saucepan I use a

22:22

Dutch oven I use a cast iron skillet

22:24

I use the three knives you mentioned and

22:26

like that's kind of all I ever use

22:28

ever I think we're

22:30

getting into a deeper conversation what hole are

22:32

you trying to fill with all this stuff

22:39

I'm personally really good class

22:41

I'm pretty anti stuff which

22:44

is annoying for some people

22:46

look I appreciate you saying that I have also

22:48

seen what your kitchen looks like so you cannot

22:50

come to me with that you have an entire

22:53

restaurant speed rack in your New York

22:55

City apartment I

22:58

didn't buy most of it what

23:02

hole are you filling by pretending to be someone

23:04

you're not how about that

23:09

okay we're gonna let you go while so and

23:11

I fight it out and pull our therapist into

23:13

this but

23:15

thank you so much for the call no

23:18

thank you both so much so I love you

23:20

in the big brunch have a good one thank

23:22

you have a good one yeah you too thank

23:24

you we have another caller let's go let's

23:27

go right to her and hopefully this won't

23:29

get into our deep-seated

23:31

emotional issues hey

23:33

Melanie oh hey Melanie

23:35

hi Melanie thanks for the call what

23:37

do you want to talk about well I've

23:40

been wondering why my last

23:43

attempt at making pavlova

23:46

was unfortunately such a disappointment

23:49

I knew about not

23:51

attempting to make egg

23:53

white meringue type dishes

23:56

on a cloudy overcast

23:58

day and even though this was a bright,

24:00

sunny, beautiful spring day,

24:02

the pavlova came out sticky

24:05

and real chewy instead

24:07

of the wonderful, dry, crunchy

24:10

way that it does come out when it's done

24:12

right, it just comes out right. And

24:15

so I didn't

24:17

know if it was

24:20

the new gas oven that I

24:22

just bought or if that had anything to do

24:24

with it, if you had any advice on what might

24:27

be the issue there. That's an interesting question. Melanie,

24:29

I have to say first of all, I

24:33

love a pavlova. So typically a pavlova

24:35

is a baked meringue, a

24:37

very light meringue with some,

24:40

often a fruit sort

24:42

of sauce or a compote or sometimes there's like

24:44

a lemon curd or something and usually some cream

24:46

and so you have this like really nice meringue

24:48

with that yummy tasty thing it's

24:50

on top of. I have to say

24:53

I love a chewy pavlova and in

24:55

fact I much prefer a chewy pavlova

24:57

over a crispy dry one. However, you

25:00

want a crispy dry one and Sola can get

25:02

you there. So Sola, what's the

25:04

problem? Okay, so

25:07

tell me about your pavlova

25:09

recipe. What

25:12

kind of sugar was in it and did it contain

25:14

any starch?

25:19

Well, I believe it was

25:21

powdered sugar, confectioner sugar that

25:23

does have some cornstarch in it.

25:26

Okay, cool. That's my

25:28

preferred sugar for pavlova so I don't think

25:30

it was the recipe. There's two things that could have

25:32

happened. The first is if you

25:35

under whip it, so if

25:37

you don't whip the sugar

25:39

and eggs till stiff peak, it

25:42

won't like really bake up crisp like

25:44

that. So if it was more of

25:46

like a soft peak when you

25:48

baked it, you might end up with something more

25:50

chewy. And

25:53

then the other thing is even

25:55

if it was a clear day, it could have

25:57

been humid. Really the enemy of Pavlovas

26:00

and anything with that much

26:03

high concentration of sugar is humidity. So

26:06

perhaps it was humid that day even

26:09

though it was clear out. Those

26:13

are the two main things, the

26:15

under whipping and the humidity. The

26:18

other thing could be because you

26:20

said it was a new oven, maybe

26:23

the air circulation wasn't the same as

26:25

your old one. So after

26:27

I bake it, I leave the

26:29

door cracked open with a wooden spoon

26:32

and that kind of lets some of the moisture out. And

26:35

actually I have an old oven that

26:37

doesn't really let the air circulate

26:39

very well. So I pop open my oven a

26:41

couple times while I'm baking just to make sure

26:44

all the moisture can have somewhere to

26:46

go during the baking process. I

26:48

don't know if that helps. Oh, that's

26:50

interesting. Yeah, thank you. That's great suggestions.

26:53

So actually, if you wanted to go for

26:55

a crisp meringue versus a sort

26:58

of chewy or sticky meringue or vice versa,

27:00

is it like a bake time thing? Is

27:03

it you actively whisk less if

27:05

you want the chewy version? Like in the recipe, would

27:07

you see it in the recipe that you're like, oh,

27:09

this will obviously be the one versus the other? I

27:13

don't know if you can tell from the recipe. So

27:15

I think a perfect Pavlovas for me is

27:17

where the outside is crispy and the inside

27:19

is like a marshmallow kind of pillowy and

27:22

soft. Right. And what distinguishes

27:24

a Pavlova from just a regular

27:26

meringue is there's always a little bit of

27:28

starch, which helps you get

27:30

that like pillowy inside. So

27:33

I like making Pavlovas with powdered sugar because

27:35

you already get that starch in there. Instead

27:38

of some recipes, you make your meringue

27:41

with granulated sugar and then you fold in

27:43

the starch, which is kind of hard to do.

27:46

So you might end up with like pockets of cornstarch

27:48

in there. So that starch will

27:50

help you get that like pillowy texture. But

27:55

if you intentionally want like a chewy meringue,

27:57

I... It

28:00

was like a crisp crust like a chewy in

28:02

the inside. I feel like it's about maybe

28:05

just baking it

28:07

less perhaps

28:11

When i'm going for like that that that

28:13

crisp outside pillowy inside i make it until

28:16

it's set enough that you can peel

28:19

It off the paper Like you'll

28:21

be able to like get your spatula

28:23

underneath the meringue and like it should

28:25

easily peel off So, you know the

28:28

outer outer shell of the meringue

28:30

is set but it won't be totally dry

28:32

It'll feel a little bit soft and then

28:34

when you let it sit out at room

28:36

temperature It'll kind of stiffen up a

28:38

bit more. So I think it's a little bit about bake

28:41

time um And

28:43

a little bit about whipping and it's one of

28:45

those things where it's like kind of just getting all those details

28:48

ironed out Which is

28:50

unfortunately what baking is all about, you

28:52

know, yeah All

28:54

right. Well, thank you so much for the call milani Yeah,

28:57

thank you. I'm wondering now after hearing all

28:59

this Maybe it's because of

29:01

where I live now in southern virginia

29:03

where the humidity is high no matter

29:05

what it seems like Whether

29:08

it's a great sunny day or not. So that

29:10

that may be the culprit of the whole thing.

29:12

Yes Virginia it's

29:14

tough. I'm not going to stop trying

29:16

to make it though. It's so yummy It's

29:19

fresh fruit. So thank you

29:21

again for for your help. You say thank

29:23

you. Yeah. Thank you Especially are

29:25

you are we just like at a luck if you

29:27

live in a human environment? Can you just not make

29:29

this dish? I

29:33

Feel like yes I'm

29:42

in the winter. Is it less humid like

29:44

in december? um No

29:47

surprisingly not I Mean

29:49

i'm just getting that from the you know, the internet

29:51

weather, but when I see humidity 86 percent

29:53

and the sun is out I'm

29:56

curious. You know, what is it? But they

29:59

obviously know how to measure it. Wait,

30:02

I have a workaround for you.

30:04

Okay. You know the fully

30:07

dry crisp meringues that you can buy in

30:09

the box? Yeah. Yeah,

30:11

those try making like a eaten

30:13

mess with those. That's like where

30:16

you take those meringues and you crush them up

30:18

and you layer it with fruit and

30:21

whipped cream. And then some of it, some of the

30:23

meringue will start to melt and maybe

30:25

kind of give you that like pillowy vibe. But

30:30

because I think it'll be a

30:32

little bit tough in Virginia to make pavlova

30:35

unless you have like a dehydrator, but

30:37

don't go buying a dehydrator. Just try

30:39

the store bought meringues. Okay.

30:42

We literally told the last caller, you don't have

30:44

to buy anything but a cast iron pan. It's

30:48

like now we're like, oh, go get a dehydrator. You

30:50

don't really do that. Okay. Thanks again. All

30:52

right, Melanie. Well, thank you so much for the

30:54

call. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. All right. Bye

30:57

bye. I didn't feel

30:59

like you were doing

31:02

this, but I felt a little bit shamed

31:05

by my preference in pavlova. I

31:07

love pavlova. I think

31:13

pavlova is a wonderful dessert. It's one of

31:15

the greatest in the world, but I really

31:18

especially like it when it's just a little

31:20

chewy and sticky in the middle. It's just

31:22

so good. Make it in the summer.

31:24

It'll be chewy for you. Yeah, I just gotta go

31:26

buy one. I'm not gonna make it. That's

31:29

why we need pastry chefs. Long live the pastry

31:32

chefs. We're

31:34

spending the hour with one of America's

31:36

favorite cooking video stars and author of

31:38

the cookbook, Dark Ears, Soma

31:41

and Weyly. We're coming up. I'm Francis

31:43

Lamb and this is the Splendid Table

31:45

from APM. I'm

32:00

Francis Lam and this is the show for curious cooks

32:02

and eaters. We've got our good

32:04

friend and cooking video star, Sola Waley

32:06

on today. Come back to it with her. We

32:10

have another caller. This is Angela. Hey,

32:12

Angela, how are you? Hi, Francis. I'm

32:15

doing really well. How are you? I'm

32:17

great. Thank you. You're here

32:19

with Sola. And what would you like to talk about?

32:21

Well, I would like to say thank you. You

32:24

are both on my imaginary best friend list. So

32:26

it's so amazing to be able to talk to

32:28

you. I

32:31

have a question about ice

32:33

cream. And my question is, I've

32:36

been substitute teaching at a low

32:38

income elementary school. And I

32:40

heard this really interesting conversation.

32:43

So I pulled a Francis Lam and just

32:45

asked a question and listened. Instead of asking

32:48

the children to go back to their tables, they

32:51

were saying one

32:53

of them said he had a freezer under his bed.

32:56

This is a seven year old. And

32:58

the freezer was full of ice

33:01

cream of all the flavors in the world. And

33:03

he was allowed to eat any

33:05

of them that he wanted to. I

33:07

kind of waited to see what the little girl would

33:09

do if she called him a liar or what you

33:11

know, what's going to happen. And she leaned in with

33:13

her eyes wide and said, me too. You

33:16

know, I thought that's amazing that she just

33:18

joined the embassy and you know, and

33:21

so I thought I do have an ice cream maker.

33:24

I wonder if it's a really food insecure school.

33:27

What would be a flavor that they haven't

33:29

tasted that I could

33:31

make that, you know, I could take it into

33:34

the class and they could taste something really interesting? This

33:37

is okay. We might be

33:40

on real best friends list soon because this is an

33:42

amazing question and I love that you want to do

33:44

this. So amazing. Thanks.

33:48

Okay. What would be a

33:50

really interesting? Well, you

33:52

will. Okay. So an interesting

33:55

flavor, but you want to be like something that wouldn't

33:57

be like so off the wall. They're just like,

33:59

wow. Exactly, yes. Um,

34:04

cool and delicious and

34:06

solo. What you got? Hmm,

34:10

I mean, so there's

34:14

this YouTube series where they

34:17

would ask kids to draw a

34:19

food, and

34:21

then a chef

34:23

would try and make it, and sometimes they would

34:25

draw things like, I want to like a

34:27

dragon cake with gummy bear eyes, and maybe

34:30

they can help you brainstorm.

34:35

Include some audience participation. But

34:38

my favorite flavor of ice cream

34:40

is actually vanilla. Thanks

34:44

for the help, Sola. You

34:47

have like a vanilla hack? I mean, maybe

34:49

they would love that too, because they're seven,

34:51

so that would be sort of a gentle

34:54

flavor. Well, I think

34:57

when you make vanilla with like a really

34:59

good vanilla bean, I like to get vanilla

35:01

beans online because they tend to be fresher,

35:06

from somewhere like regalas or

35:08

jalea vanilla. When

35:10

you buy it online, it's like really fresh

35:12

and really sticky and super aromatic, and

35:15

it's like completely different from the one you get

35:17

it in the store in like the little jars. I

35:20

think it's the greatest smell in the world, and

35:24

you don't actually need very much. You can make

35:26

a quart of vanilla with like half a bean,

35:29

and I think it could be cool

35:31

to like, I don't know, let them

35:33

smell the pods, you know, do a little teaser.

35:36

Okay, I love that. They would love that. Let

35:39

them smell the pods before you make the

35:41

ice cream, and I

35:43

always recommend, like I'll make my base

35:45

with the seeds and

35:47

the pod, and then I like let it steep

35:49

overnight, so it gets like really intense, and

35:52

I feel like when you let vanilla, like really

35:54

steep, and I prefer

35:56

to do, when I'm making a vanilla, and I really want

35:58

to taste the vanilla, I do an eggless, So

36:00

it's just milk, cream, a

36:03

little bit of corn syrup, sugar,

36:05

and milk powder. And

36:08

I like doing that like eggless base so nothing gets

36:11

in the way of the vanilla flavor. It's just like

36:13

the vanilla and the milk and the cream.

36:15

And then let it steep overnight, maybe

36:18

even like two nights and then that

36:20

aroma really like permeates. And

36:22

I feel like it tastes like orchids

36:24

and marshmallows. To me it's like really

36:27

the best flavor. There's

36:29

vanilla ice creams out there, a Madagascar vanilla,

36:31

but you could try like a Taishin vanilla

36:34

or a Mexican vanilla. And I

36:36

know it's just vanilla and vanilla gets like

36:38

a bad rap, but I really do love it.

36:41

And it'll be unlike any vanilla ice cream they could buy.

36:44

I love that. And I love that

36:46

you added steep overnight too because that's

36:48

the kind of things that are left

36:50

out of cookbooks. And like Frances said

36:53

something just offhand about peeling the stems

36:55

of broccoli. And that's the kind of

36:57

thing that a lot of people

36:59

don't write down. So thank you for the steep

37:01

overnight tip. Oh

37:03

yeah, that's a good one. And

37:05

actually I love Sola's, I mean

37:08

you'll need an actual recipe, but

37:10

her idea of using an eggless

37:12

base where that

37:14

does include corn syrup and milk powder,

37:16

those are two kind of magic ingredients

37:18

that I would not skip because the

37:20

corn syrup, also another thing

37:22

that gets a bad rap, you're

37:24

not using it like an industrial food

37:27

processor does. Like don't worry about two

37:29

tablespoons of corn syrup in your homemade

37:31

ice cream. That

37:33

really, really helps the texture of the

37:35

ice cream and the milk powder. A,

37:38

adds a little more milk flavor, but the protein

37:40

in milk powder also helps to keep your ice

37:43

cream texture like really super

37:45

smooth and creamy. And

37:47

I think it also like keeps it so you can

37:49

like keep it longer in the freezer, right? Like it

37:51

sort of stabilizes the texture so it doesn't like want

37:54

to get sort of icy and

37:56

grainy and the freezer is easily. But how

37:58

much ice cream are you going to get? make Angela?

38:02

The teachers have about 24 students in the

38:04

class so I could easily you know

38:06

make a couple gallons and then bring

38:08

in little ice cream cones and do it in

38:10

class and I love the idea of sharing

38:13

the smell of the pods with them so

38:16

and I love the idea of corn syrup too because

38:18

we are in corn country and I feel like the

38:20

corn syrup could sort of hold hands with the

38:23

unfamiliar and introduce the kids

38:26

in that way something they know and something they don't

38:28

know. Oh that's cool. Hey you know

38:31

okay so you're making a lot ice cream. If you're

38:33

like a home ice cream maker which probably makes like

38:37

a quart at a time. Right. If

38:40

you're making several gallons and you're making ice cream for like

38:43

a bunch of weekends stashing in your freezer I

38:47

would say the corn

38:49

ice cream I've never met anyone

38:51

who doesn't love sweet corn ice cream. I've never

38:54

heard of this. But so many people the first

38:56

time they have it like it blows their mind

38:58

that you can make. Yeah I mean

39:00

literally make ice cream that tastes

39:03

like corn. Sola

39:06

go. I get to

39:08

give a recipe off about my head. Oh I love corn ice

39:10

cream. Corn ice cream is very good.

39:12

So you I like to

39:15

both make a puree with the

39:17

fresh corn. This would probably be better in

39:19

the summer when the corn is really sweet. But do

39:21

you work with like frozen corn? Like if because

39:24

frozen corn is often still pretty sweet. I

39:27

don't think so. Okay.

39:31

Because when you blitz up

39:33

the corn the frozen corn has like a

39:35

little grittiness but but you want to shave

39:38

off the kernels and you're gonna put the

39:40

kernels and the cops in there cook

39:42

it all together. Also go eggless here

39:45

and then once you've

39:47

got like give it that overnight

39:49

steep again once you've gotten all your

39:51

flavor from your cobs you want to take them out and

39:53

like really use your hands to squeeze

39:56

every bit of ice cream based off of it

39:58

and then you're gonna puree. to

40:00

blitz up corn kernels

40:04

and pass that through a fine mesh strainer.

40:07

And it's very tasty and I

40:10

feel like with corn ice cream you need a little extra salt. It

40:12

really brings out that corn flavor. So

40:15

it's going to be kind of like a little salty,

40:18

savory corn ice cream situation.

40:20

I've never heard of anything like this. That

40:22

will be really good in corn country. No

40:26

one on this planet does

40:28

not fall in love with sweet corn ice cream the first time

40:30

they taste it. It's just magic,

40:33

magic, magic. Wow.

40:35

Okay. Why would you add the

40:37

cob though? What does the cob do for it? Oh,

40:39

there's just a lot of flavor in the cob. You

40:42

don't want to let it go to waste. Yeah, yeah.

40:45

Something I do sort of maniacally during summer

40:47

is when I buy fresh corn and I

40:49

use the corn, I store

40:51

all the cobs, I'll

40:54

just wrap it in plastic

40:56

wrap. If I had three cobs

40:58

of corn that night, I'll just take the cobs, wrap

41:01

them in plastic, wrap them up. And

41:03

then one day my wife will open the freezer and be like, why

41:05

did you take a quarter of the freezer in corn cobs? Please

41:07

get rid of these. And so I take

41:09

them all out and I boil them in water and

41:12

the corn stock is terrific.

41:16

I use it in a place of vegetable

41:18

stock, a place of chicken stock. It

41:20

has just like a nice mellow

41:23

corn flavor. It's great. It's

41:25

amazing. I've never heard of anyone doing

41:27

that around here. Yeah, that's how

41:29

you know we're fancy because we use all the garbage that people

41:31

throw out. I

41:34

love that. Well,

41:36

thanks so much for the call, Angela. I

41:38

really hope you make really wonderful ice cream

41:41

and the kids love the vanilla, the experience of all the

41:43

vanilla, or if you want to wait till the summer and

41:45

make some corn ice cream. I

41:47

just love that you're doing that. That's really wonderful. Okay,

41:49

I'll send you a picture. Please do.

41:51

Thank you. Good luck. Thank you so

41:53

much. Bye. All right. Bye-bye. Oh

41:55

my God, I love that. Okay,

41:58

so I want to get back to you. to you, Sola,

42:00

now that we've done several pastry calls in

42:03

a row, and you were a pastry

42:05

chef, and half your book

42:07

is pastry, but I don't want to focus only on

42:09

that because like you said, women so often get typecast

42:11

as pastry chefs in the restaurant world. But

42:14

there's something that was really interesting about the

42:16

intro to your book and

42:18

how you talked about being a

42:20

particular kind of learner. And

42:23

you're not really one to memorize facts

42:25

or memorize the steps. That's

42:28

not really your strengths, but for you when you learn

42:30

about the why, you're like, I tell me why this

42:33

is and then I'll get it. And

42:36

I kind of feel like pastry and baking is like

42:39

sort of famously a stereotype of this world where

42:41

like it's all about precise measurements and precise techniques.

42:44

You got to know exactly one thing, next thing,

42:46

third thing, and that's the only way to do

42:48

it. But talk

42:51

to me about your approach to writing your book, both

42:53

the pastry side and the savory side, and

42:55

how much you want to focus on the why rather

42:57

than the what do I do next? Well,

43:01

I guess the

43:03

first thing I did was figure out what I

43:06

thought the core techniques I wanted to focus on

43:08

would be. So each chapter

43:10

is a technique. And

43:13

that just like narrowing that down took forever.

43:16

Because I really wanted to be what was essential to

43:18

the home cook. So there's a

43:20

lot that's left out because like there's no,

43:22

I initially had a frying chapter but like

43:24

you don't need to fry. There's

43:27

a lamination chapter. I don't mean I don't need to fry. You

43:30

can eat really well without deep

43:32

frying ever. So

43:35

once I figured that

43:38

out, then it was

43:40

just like, then

43:42

I guess my primary focus was really

43:46

how to teach people those techniques through

43:48

the text and through the recipes. So

43:51

every recipe is meant to really like

43:54

teach you more about the technique.

43:56

So there are dishes in there

43:58

that are like good weeknight. dinners,

44:01

of course, but it's really a teaching

44:04

book. So every recipe is meant to teach.

44:06

And then the text as well,

44:08

I really wanted to break

44:11

down every single one of these techniques like

44:13

as much as I possibly could, like the

44:16

science, the house, the equipment, because I really

44:18

want you to get

44:20

it. Like I really want you to leave

44:22

the book like after the searing

44:24

chapter, I want you to know everything about how to

44:26

sear. Anytime you find

44:28

a recipe where there's searing, you get

44:31

it. You're not blindly just following a

44:33

step to patch your meat dry. You

44:35

understand why. You know that like, oh,

44:38

I need dry meat to make browning

44:40

happen because the enemy of brown is

44:42

wet. So I

44:44

really want to explain all the why's

44:46

because I think it just makes it

44:49

easier to know what you're

44:51

doing, whether you're following a recipe or not.

44:53

Yeah. But I also love

44:55

a lot of, you know, it's not the first book to

44:58

want to teach basic cooking techniques in a sort of systematic

45:00

way. But a lot of times I do find when folks

45:02

write those books, like they feel like, well,

45:05

if I'm teaching beginner, beginners

45:08

may be a weird word for like basic techniques,

45:10

and people want like basic recipes to go with

45:12

them. And I love that your approach is like,

45:15

we're not doing that, like they're basic techniques.

45:17

But the recipes themselves are not basic

45:20

at all in terms of flavor or creativity. So

45:22

there's one that really caught my eye that I'd

45:24

love for you to talk about. And it's the

45:26

Bistia inspired Filo chicken pie. Oh,

45:30

yeah. Tell us about that dish and what the lesson,

45:32

what the technique lesson is there. Well,

45:35

first of all, I really love

45:37

Bistia. But

45:39

the traditional one, it's like a long

45:42

braised pigeon. And it's a difficult recipe

45:44

if you want to make it like

45:46

fully traditional history. And

45:49

it's like, yeah, very spiced.

45:51

And it's Moroccan, right? It's

45:53

a, it's like a beautiful

45:55

Moroccan pie. Yeah. And I what

45:57

I love the most about it is it's got like this

45:59

sweet savory thing happening. But

46:02

I wanted to capture the flavor of a

46:04

really long braise by just focusing on the

46:06

point of this recipe to teach you how to

46:08

ground meat, ground meat in

46:10

particular. Ground

46:13

meat can be hard to brown sometimes

46:15

because it is very wet. And

46:17

I feel like getting it really crispy brown,

46:20

sometimes you end up drying out the meat. That's

46:23

totally true. I

46:25

had never thought of thinking like searing a steak or

46:27

a pork chop. As long as

46:29

the pan is hot and you've dried the surface

46:32

of the meat, it's usually going to work. But

46:34

yeah, often when you're browning ground meat, it releases

46:36

a lot more juice. So

46:39

the way I like to brown

46:41

my ground meat, which

46:43

I highlight in this recipe, and in all

46:45

my old recipes I do this as well,

46:49

I put the ground meat in the pan

46:51

in one even layer and

46:53

then just leave it. Because a

46:55

lot of recipes tell you to break it up

46:57

and toss it into crumbles. I just let it

46:59

stay put. That's the main lesson. Let it stay

47:01

put, let it brown, and then it browns really

47:04

deeply on one side, and then the other side

47:06

stays a little bit moist. And then you go

47:08

in and break it up afterwards and add your

47:10

spices and your garlic and all of that. So

47:13

the lesson there was just how to

47:15

ground meat. But from that,

47:17

you get this really cool recipe that

47:19

is also a shortcut to bistia. And

47:23

hopefully it teaches more people about those flavors.

47:25

Because I think it's a really cool flavor

47:27

combo. Because in a lot of

47:29

Western cuisine, you don't use warm spices like

47:32

cinnamon in savory food as much

47:34

as you do in Middle East

47:36

and South Asia. So it's a flavor combo that

47:38

I think you already got cinnamon. So just like

47:40

now you got more ways to use it.

47:42

Yeah. Actually, why don't you walk us through

47:44

the recipe really quick. So you've browned ground

47:47

chicken. And what are the spices you're

47:49

adding to it? So

47:51

it's spiced with garlic, ginger,

47:54

turmeric, cinnamon, and black pepper. Mm.

47:57

OK. And then my

47:59

favorite part is. So you have your

48:01

little spiced meat mixture, you put it in

48:03

filo, fold it up. After

48:05

you bake it, you sprinkle it with

48:07

powdered sugar. And it sounds

48:09

wild, but the sweet savory thing is really,

48:12

it's really delicious. It's crispy,

48:15

the buttery filo, it's crispy.

48:17

There are raisins in it too, right? There's raisins, yeah,

48:20

little pops of sweet,

48:22

yeah. Oh, that sounds

48:24

so good. Right on. Well, thanks so

48:26

much for coming by, and congratulations on

48:28

this. You're my new mental book. Yeah,

48:31

thanks for having me.

48:35

Sola L. Whaley is the author of the

48:37

New York Times bestseller, Start Your Instructions

48:40

for Becoming a Better Cook. And

48:42

she left us with her recipe

48:44

for that Bastilla-inspired filo chicken pie.

48:47

Find it, let's blend the tables I've learned. And

48:49

that is our show for the week. Don't

48:52

make something new this week, will ya? See what you do in

48:54

a few. APM

49:00

Studios are run by Tundra Cavati and

49:02

Joanne Gursik, as Promans, our executive producer,

49:05

and the flint table was created by

49:07

Sally Swift and Rosetta Kasper. And

49:09

it's made every week by technical

49:11

producer Jennifer Lukey, producer Erica O'Mearow,

49:14

digital producer James Napoli, and

49:16

managing producer Sally Swift. I'm

49:18

Francis Lam, and this is APM Studios.