0:00

Hey, it's Francis. We are so excited

0:02

to share with you today an episode

0:04

from Dishing on Julia, the official Julia

0:07

companion podcast on Max. You

0:09

probably know we are pretty huge fans of Julia

0:11

Child here at the Splendid Table way

0:13

back in the earliest days of our show. She

0:16

supported us and would come on as

0:18

a guest. She was already a legend

0:20

then, but we had no idea how

0:22

big her impact would eventually be on

0:24

what would become today's massive cooking and

0:27

entertainment industry. Join host

0:29

Kerry Diamond of Cherry Bomb every week on

0:31

Dishing on Julia as she dives into the

0:33

details of both the show and the real

0:36

impact Julia Child had on cuisine and culture.

0:38

She talks with the creators and crew of the

0:41

show as well as today's culinary stars to unpack

0:43

every episode. And if you haven't seen the show,

0:45

give it a watch. It's really great. And then

0:47

follow it up by listening to the podcast. Listen

0:50

to Dishing on Julia, the official companion

0:53

podcast to the Max Original Series, Julia

0:55

on Max or wherever you get your

0:57

podcasts. It

1:02

would be great having Julia back. Can't

1:04

believe how much I miss her. Welcome

1:07

to Dishing on Julia, the official

1:09

companion podcast of Julia, the Max

1:11

Original Series inspired by the life

1:13

of Julia Child. It is

1:16

so nice to be back. I'm your host,

1:18

Kerry Diamond, and I'm the founder of Cherry

1:20

Bomb Magazine and the Radio Cherry Bomb podcast,

1:22

where I report on some of the most

1:24

interesting women in the world of

1:26

food, including trailblazers just like Julia.

1:30

No idea what it's been like here without you. One

1:33

girl in a sea of men. Julia,

1:35

we have so much work to do. Season

1:38

two of Julia is officially underway. And for

1:40

the next several weeks, I'll be dishing with

1:42

creatives from the show, as well as special

1:44

guests to give us a little perspective and

1:47

food for thought. We'll be kicking

1:49

things off with Julia creator and executive

1:51

producer Daniel Goldfarb. Daniel

1:53

will tell us why change is a central theme

1:56

this season, who the new cast members are, and

1:58

what it was like shooting on location. in

2:00

Provence and Paris. Yes,

2:04

we still have a book to write,

2:06

and Judith will be here in a

2:08

few days. I've been a

2:10

loaded eater all spring, intoxicated by

2:12

France. Today's other guest

2:14

is chef Eric Ripert of La Bernadine

2:17

in New York City, one of the

2:19

most celebrated and respected chefs around. Like

2:21

Julia, Eric is a bestselling author, and

2:24

his latest book, his eighth, is titled

2:26

Seafood Simple. Eric actually

2:28

met Julia several times and is going

2:30

to share some of his memories, including

2:32

that time Julia had some very interesting

2:35

feedback after eating at La Bernadine. You're

2:37

absolutely right. That French chef of

2:40

yours is really something. If you

2:42

haven't watched episode one yet, my advice is to

2:44

check it out before you listen to these interviews.

2:47

Just as too many cooks spoil the broth, I

2:49

do not want to spoil Julia for you. For

2:52

those who need a refresher, season one

2:54

of Julia ended with Simka Beck, Julia's

2:56

co-author with whom she has a love-hate

2:58

relationship, inviting Julia to Provence, where they

3:00

can cook together and work on the

3:02

follow-up to their best-selling book, Mastering the

3:05

Art of French Cooking. Simka

3:07

is played wonderfully by Isabella Rossellini, and

3:09

Julia, of course, is played by Sarah

3:11

Lancashire, who I am sure you

3:13

agree does an incredible job of embodying the

3:16

icon. Well, Julia has taken

3:18

Simka up on her offer. Season

3:20

two opens with the two of them in a picturesque

3:22

farmer's market. They cook together at Simka's

3:24

home and work on the book, but old

3:27

issues resurface. Julia wants

3:29

to update French classics for the modern

3:31

American housewife, while Simka wants to go

3:33

the traditional route. Undeterred, Julia

3:35

brings Simka to a restaurant run

3:37

by a young Paul Bocuse, a

3:39

real-life French chef who influenced an

3:41

entire generation of culinary superstars. Julia

3:44

is enthralled by his Lou Encrute, which

3:46

is a filleted piece of fish, steamed

3:48

inside a brioche crust, and plated tableside.

3:50

In this case, with a simple tomato

3:52

and shallot sauce. To Simka,

3:54

this fish dish served with no

3:57

butter or cream is bland and

3:59

uninteresting. To Julia, the simplicity

4:01

is new and daring. All

4:04

that theater for her

4:06

piece of steamsish. If

4:08

this is the future, Julia, cut me out. Meanwhile,

4:11

back in the States, life somehow goes

4:14

on without Julia. Avis DeVoto,

4:16

played by Bebe Newworth, has a new job. Blanche

4:18

Knopf, played by Judith Light, is pretty

4:21

wretched to Judith Jones, played by Fiona

4:23

Glascott, and Alice Naaman, played

4:25

by Brittany Bradford, continues to fight the

4:27

boys club. Are you smiling?

4:30

An endangered species, Ralph, oh boy. We

4:33

played golf with the boss twice a month. We're

4:36

fine. The winds of change

4:38

smell like Chanel number five friends. Now,

4:41

let's welcome our first guest,

4:43

Daniel Goldfarb, the creator and executive

4:46

producer of Julia. And

4:48

since we haven't really spoken at all, in the 72 days

4:50

since you've been gone, any

4:53

tiny hints you can give me about what you're thinking for season

4:56

two? Daniel Goldfarb, welcome back

4:58

to dishing on Julia. It's so nice

5:00

to be back. All right, so

5:02

season two is back. This is a

5:04

big question, but how is season two different from

5:06

season one? It's a good question.

5:08

I think the heart of the

5:11

show hasn't really changed, and the sort of

5:13

point of view of the world, and the

5:15

sort of aspirational optimism of Julia is still

5:17

very much a part of the show. But

5:20

the show has expanded. When we started season

5:22

one, we were really focused on Julia, and

5:24

slowly over the course of the season, we

5:26

became more and more invested in the other

5:28

characters in the show. But now I feel

5:30

we're invested in all of them as much

5:33

as we are in Julia. And now all

5:35

of them have adventures to go on that

5:37

somehow through their interactions with Julia

5:40

has awoken each and every

5:42

one of them in sort of new and exciting ways.

5:44

So the show has sort of

5:46

expanded in that way. It's still Julia, but

5:48

you really get to go on adventures with

5:50

all of the characters. And then in terms

5:52

of Julia herself, she's in a

5:55

different position than she was a year ago. You know,

5:57

she has the things she

5:59

wanted. and she has

6:01

some clout and some power, and she

6:03

has to figure out what to do

6:06

with it. And it's more

6:08

complicated than she thinks it is. She makes

6:10

some mistakes in season two, and she's learning

6:12

in a different way. She's not learning how

6:14

to make a television show the way she

6:16

was learning in season one, but

6:18

she's learning now how to sort of handle

6:21

being a public figure, both with her near

6:23

and dear, and with people at work, and

6:25

with the world at large. Any

6:27

new characters or historical figures that we can

6:30

look forward to in season two? We have

6:32

a bunch. So we have some new sort

6:34

of recurring characters. We have a love interest

6:37

for Avis. The actor's name is Danny Burstein.

6:39

The character's name is Stanley Lipschitz, and he

6:41

won the Tony Award last year for Moulin

6:43

Rouge, and he's sort of a Broadway legend,

6:46

but there's a new director at WGBH at

6:48

the end of season one. Hunter talks about

6:50

hiring some more women, and

6:52

Rachel Bloom plays that part, and

6:54

she's just incredible, and it

6:57

was great to get to know her. James

6:59

Beard comes back, and John Updike comes

7:01

back. We have some others. I

7:04

think the audience got such a kick out

7:06

of it last season that we kind of

7:08

leaned into it more this season, but I

7:10

don't wanna give them away, but we have

7:12

some really, really fun historical characters show up

7:14

in episode one, and we got Stockard Channing

7:16

is with us, and Hannah Einbinder is with

7:18

us, and yeah, just we have really, really

7:20

some, and if you love New York theater,

7:22

we have all these amazing New York theater

7:24

actors that pop up in every episode, so

7:27

lots to look forward to in that way. Season

7:29

two is a treat for the theater nerds, just like

7:31

season one was. Well, you are a

7:33

theater baby. You told me something so interesting that

7:35

I hadn't put together. You said as a playwright,

7:38

you spend a lot of time writing interior

7:40

scenes of people talking to each other. Yes,

7:43

so it's my natural impulse to

7:45

sort of do interior scenes,

7:47

and it's also very Julia. When

7:50

you think of Julia, you think of her at a restaurant, you think

7:52

of her in a kitchen, in her

7:54

kitchen especially, or on the French chef set. So

7:57

it's something that our directors, they get the

7:59

scripts, always looking at them and trying to

8:01

figure out how do we get outside and

8:03

then especially when

8:07

we were in France. So we, you know,

8:09

the first three episodes are shot in France

8:11

and it was so gorgeous and we just

8:13

wanted to show France. So we did a

8:16

few cheats like when we go to Paul

8:18

Bocous's restaurant, it's an outdoor restaurant.

8:20

So it was not an outdoor restaurant, but

8:22

we made it an outdoor restaurant so we

8:24

could show the majesty because we were at

8:26

Cap D'Antive and it was so incredible. We

8:28

tried to find ways of taking interior

8:30

scenes and making them exterior scenes.

8:33

Even though they are sitting around a

8:36

table, there's nothing stationary or static about

8:38

those scenes. Well, we have Christine Tobin,

8:40

our food stylist, and we have the

8:42

food. So there's always these incredible shots

8:44

of the food. And then John Donne,

8:46

who's costumed everyone so colorfully and so

8:49

vibrantly, who really took his cue

8:51

from Julia and is really like

8:53

going wild with color, all

8:56

the characters. And the characters are full

8:58

of life. When you do the research

9:00

about Julia and Julia and Paul, they

9:02

really did live life to the fullest

9:04

and were loud and joyful and witty

9:06

and effervescent. So it's never just kind

9:08

of like people, you know, sitting at

9:10

a table on their phone checking, you

9:13

know. So like

9:15

it's people really engaged and it's people talking,

9:18

you know, not from the neck up that

9:20

are just with their whole bodies like feeling

9:22

things. And so I agree. I don't think

9:25

it does feel stationary even when it is.

9:28

When we spoke about season one, you told me

9:30

about Amadeus and how much that movie meant to

9:32

you and that that was a real sort of

9:34

guiding light for what you did with the first

9:36

season. Was there anything that was a

9:38

guide for you for season two? So

9:40

I would say we leaned into

9:42

that even more so. Amadeus is

9:44

a play that was turned into an

9:47

Academy Award winning movie by Peter Schaffer

9:49

about Mozart. It's about his relationship with

9:51

Salieri who was at the time the

9:53

most famous composer in the world. And

9:55

now here we are all these years

9:57

later and no one knows who Salieri

9:59

is. and everyone knows who Mozart

10:02

is, and Peter Schaeffer had the idea of

10:04

like, why is that? So he

10:06

did a lot of research, and

10:08

he invented a story about

10:11

Mozart's relationship with Salieri. A

10:14

lot of people say, well, it's not true,

10:16

that's not what happened. But then when he

10:18

was interviewed, when the movie came out, he

10:20

said, the way history is recorded isn't necessarily

10:22

the way it happened. And I did a

10:24

lot of research, and I stand

10:26

by this. I stand by that

10:28

this could have happened. I'm not saying it did

10:30

happen, but I think the psychological

10:33

truth of it has integrity, and

10:35

I stand by the choices I made. So

10:37

we sort of felt like, so if Amadeus

10:39

is the fable version of Mozart's life, we

10:42

always say we're doing the Amadeus version of Julia's

10:44

life. But we're hoping the

10:46

sort of bright, magical story we're

10:48

telling is true to the heart

10:50

and soul of Julia, even if

10:53

it's not true literally to biographical

10:55

events in her timeline.

10:58

You know, Chris sometimes talks about the show

11:01

being a fable about Julia Child. Chris Kaiser.

11:03

Chris Kaiser, who's my partner on all of

11:05

this. And the truth is, we have

11:07

access to a lot of information about

11:10

Julia, and we've absorbed a lot of

11:12

it. I've read multiple biographies. I've read

11:14

multiple interviews. I've watched all of The

11:16

French Chef. I've seen a lot of

11:19

her talk show appearances. And everything we

11:21

do on the show is rooted in

11:23

that research. And everything we

11:25

do in the show could have happened, though

11:28

didn't necessarily happen as

11:30

we've dramatized it. That's a

11:32

real fine line you have to walk, though, between

11:35

fact and fiction. And some people

11:37

come to the show expecting it to be a

11:39

documentary. Right. And they shouldn't.

11:42

But the truth is, now that I've done it and

11:44

I've watched a bunch, I don't think

11:46

we're any different than The Crown. I don't think

11:48

we're any different than a lot of shows that

11:50

are based on historical figures. To

11:52

Sarah Lancashire's credit, she's not doing

11:54

an impersonation. She's doing an embodiment.

11:57

Because we've slowed the story down, each season

12:00

takes place, like season two takes place, I

12:02

think over half a year. Season one takes

12:04

place over a year. So we

12:06

have eight hours to tell one year

12:08

of her life. You know, most biopics

12:11

are an hour and 45 minutes and

12:13

they tell a 30-year story. We don't

12:15

have to just hit the sort of

12:17

landmark moments of her life. We can

12:19

talk about the moments that aren't in

12:21

the biographies, but that are inspired by

12:23

what we read in the biographies. And

12:26

I think that's part of what makes Julia

12:28

so satisfying because those biopics make me crazy

12:30

that they try to cram a whole life

12:32

into two hours. Right. And the truth is,

12:35

when I pitched Julia, season two ends where

12:37

we thought we were going to end season

12:39

one. So we ended up slowing it down

12:41

even more. Originally, we were just going to

12:43

like skip after episode two, where they do

12:45

the pilot episode to the show being a

12:48

hit already. And then we realized like, no,

12:50

no, no, like them figuring it out is

12:52

part of the fun and building the set,

12:54

learning how to prep all of that stuff

12:56

is how the sausage gets made of

12:58

it and seeing them in the editing room

13:01

and seeing them in post-production and

13:03

seeing them brainstorming and scripting. And

13:06

that all became part of the fabric of the show.

13:08

And we had a lot of fun with it. And

13:10

we didn't go any further in season two. We thought

13:13

maybe we would go beyond what we originally thought, but

13:15

we didn't. So we're ending season two where

13:17

we thought we were going to end season one. I

13:19

remember last season Melanie Mayron describing the cooking

13:22

scenes as the closest thing you have to

13:24

a car crash. Yeah. I mean, they're and

13:27

the insert shots and I mean, they're hard

13:29

to film. They take real time

13:31

to get them right. Now I'm actually so

13:33

conscious every time I watch anything, not just

13:35

Julia, whenever a character is eating, how

13:38

many takes, how many setups are

13:40

there? And then I just

13:42

start thinking, oh my God, that person ate

13:45

12 hamburgers to shoot this scene or whatever.

13:47

You become really aware of how eating scenes

13:49

are shot, because that's such a huge part of

13:51

our show. And our actors have to sort of

13:53

like prep for it. Like in episode two, I

13:55

think they go to the green market and Judith

13:57

buy some cheese and she's tasting the cheese. And

13:59

we We shot that scene like 20,

14:01

30 times and I started physically

14:03

feeling sick and like worried like

14:05

I was literally worried about, you

14:09

know, because when we rehearsed it, it was funny that she

14:11

ate so much cheese and I was like, but wait a

14:13

minute, we're going to have to shoot this a lot. Are

14:15

you sure you want to take that many bites of cheese?

14:17

And then she just she went for it, which was great.

14:20

I mean, she felt it, I think for literally for

14:22

days. We'd love to talk

14:24

to you about something more serious about

14:26

the show. The show fictionalizes parts of

14:28

Julia's life while drawing parallels to contemporary

14:30

cultural themes. Can you elaborate

14:32

on that a little bit? You know, we're watching

14:34

this period piece, but it feels very modern in

14:37

terms of these themes you're touching on. I think

14:39

if you're going to tell a period piece,

14:41

you want it to feel modern. You want it, you

14:43

don't want the show to feel like it could have

14:45

been written and made in the time

14:47

that it takes place. You want it to feel like it's

14:49

a 20, 23 lands

14:52

looking back at a time. You're

14:54

going to have a show and you're going to

14:56

get to say something to the world. You're going

14:59

to have eight hours to say something. What

15:01

do you want to say? And then

15:03

think about that, what you want to put out in the

15:06

world and then figure it out how Julia can put that

15:08

out in the world. When we open

15:10

our writers room, you know, Chris

15:12

is brilliant. Our whole team of

15:14

writers, they're all really, really brilliant,

15:16

interesting people. And we

15:19

spend a month just talking and talking about

15:21

the world through the lens of Julia, about

15:23

all the changes taking place in the 60s.

15:26

We obviously talk a lot about marriage. We

15:28

talk a lot about the women's movement. We

15:31

talk about a lot of

15:33

social justice movements that were happening in

15:35

the 60s. We talked about aging. We

15:38

talk about celebrity. We talked about public

15:40

television. And then we were talking about

15:42

what was going on in the world right

15:45

now. So like we have a birth control

15:47

storyline that I'm really proud of. But

15:49

it was, you know, we were definitely thinking

15:52

about the Supreme Court and Roe v. Wade

15:54

and all of that was on our minds

15:56

and weighing on us. And we wanted to

15:58

somehow write about what we... were feeling

16:01

through the lens of these pre-row characters.

16:03

So that's an example. But that's, I

16:05

think, the most exciting part about writing

16:08

a period piece, which is sort of

16:11

using that time period as a lens

16:13

to talk about the world that you're

16:15

actually experiencing in the present. So

16:17

in the show, you talked about slowing

16:19

things down. But the world intrudes. There's

16:21

so much change going on in the

16:23

world around Julia and Paul and

16:26

their friends and the crew and everyone. Talk

16:28

about change. That's such a big theme in

16:31

season two. Yes, for sure. I mean, before

16:33

we opened our writers room, I went to

16:35

LA, and Chris and I spent a week

16:37

together just talking. We had, again, lots of

16:40

biographical information that we knew we wanted to

16:42

do. We wanted to do The

16:44

White House, and we wanted to do this dinner

16:46

party that's the second episode. And we wanted to

16:48

do the Luan Crout, all from the research. But

16:50

then it was like, what are we saying? What

16:53

is the show about? What is the theme? And

16:55

the theme couldn't be the same theme as the

16:57

themes that we were exploring in season one. And

17:00

we thought about the 60s, and we thought about change.

17:03

And we thought Julia's arc is

17:05

slightly more interior arcs than it was

17:07

last year, because it really is Julia

17:09

navigating change. And on the one hand,

17:11

she wants to be on the side

17:13

of change. And on the other hand,

17:16

she likes things the way they are, and she

17:18

doesn't want things to change. And

17:20

change is scary. And she

17:22

sort of goes back and forth over the course of

17:25

the season, which is what I

17:27

was saying earlier in terms of her being

17:29

conflicted and her not always being right about

17:31

everything, is I think very human and I

17:33

think makes her even

17:35

more lovable. And then ultimately, she

17:37

comes to a decision about change, and I'm sure

17:39

you can probably guess where she

17:42

lands on it. But that became the

17:44

arc of the season. And because that

17:46

time in this country was a time

17:48

of so much change, it was really

17:50

easy to use everything that's

17:53

going on in the world, again,

17:55

through the lens of Julia

17:57

and her little coterie. I

17:59

love it. the scene when she and Simka go to

18:02

the Paul Beaucoutes restaurant and Julia orders the Luan

18:04

Croutes, the famous fish dish. And

18:06

I felt like you were making such

18:09

a statement about the old and the

18:11

new. And somehow the Luan Croutes represented

18:13

change and change that Julia was ready

18:16

to embrace and Simka was not. That's

18:18

exactly right. In the research, we discovered

18:20

that Julia and Simka went to Paul

18:23

Beaucoutes' first restaurant before he was in

18:25

Leon, before he was a Michelin three-star

18:28

chef and probably the most famous chef in

18:30

the world and one of the fathers of

18:32

Nouvelle Cuisine. He had a small restaurant

18:35

in Nice. It is less grand

18:37

than the way we've dramatized it

18:39

and it wasn't outdoors. That's where

18:41

that comes from. And that it

18:44

sort of, Julia, who's, you know,

18:46

mastering is so rooted in traditional

18:48

French cooking and all of a

18:50

sudden she tries something and it's

18:52

new and it's different and it's

18:54

lighter. The preparation is different. The

18:56

sauce is different. The experience is

18:58

different. It's visually different and it's

19:00

really exciting to her. But

19:02

it also sort of puts her in a little

19:04

bit of a crisis, which is like Simka, we

19:06

do this thing, but food is changing and

19:08

it's moving. And what do we do? Do

19:10

we hold on to the way it's been

19:12

made, the Escofier model of the way it's

19:15

been done for a hundred years or do

19:17

we move forward and do we embrace the

19:19

sort of creativity and the ingenuity

19:21

of someone like Paul Bocuse? And that is

19:23

the sort of, you know, it's in the

19:25

first episode and that becomes like the metaphor

19:27

for the whole season. It is

19:30

a really important moment in the show

19:32

and a really important moment for Julia.

19:35

That's a lot to put on one fish dish, Daniel.

19:38

We've talked about a lot of the fun things

19:40

when it comes to making Julia. You did have

19:43

to deal with the heat wave while you were

19:45

over in France. When we got to France, it

19:47

was like 110 degrees every day. It was

19:49

the COVID capital of the world at

19:52

that time. The most

19:54

gorgeous French chateau you've ever seen that

19:56

we shot in did not have air

19:58

conditioning. haters were

20:00

so definitely loud. We were worried

20:03

that we were going to have

20:05

to like in ADR loop entire

20:07

scenes, but somehow it

20:10

all just looks, I mean it was idyllic, like

20:12

it was magical. But were you freaking out before

20:14

you headed over there? I mean were you looking

20:16

at your weather app nonstop? Like I cannot believe

20:18

this. I didn't, you know, there are things I

20:20

just didn't think about. I just assumed there was

20:22

air conditioning in the house. You know what I

20:24

mean? Like there were things that I thought, oh

20:27

it'll be hot. Who cares? We'll be fine. You

20:29

know, like it's summer clothes. It takes place

20:31

in the summer. But yeah, it was oppressively

20:33

hot. We had a limited number of days

20:35

in France and then we had we had

20:37

to get back to Boston on us. The

20:40

scheduling of that was really tricky,

20:42

but we got pretty lucky and we

20:44

we made it. We did it. So

20:46

that was nerve wracking, especially at

20:48

the beginning. That never occurred to us that we

20:50

would be like in this hotspot. And then in

20:52

France, you know, that was just a little bit

20:55

stressful. But somehow we got lucky and

20:57

we made it through. I

20:59

absolutely love episode one. What is

21:01

your favorite moment? So I

21:04

think my favorite moment is when Julia tastes

21:06

the Luan Crout. You know, you talked about

21:08

how we spoke about Amadeus last year. And

21:11

that's what we wrote right into the

21:13

script that when she tastes it, it's

21:15

like when Salieri hears Mozart for the

21:17

first time. And the way Melanie directs

21:19

it, like the camera spins around her

21:21

and it gets really close on her

21:23

face. And you just see like the

21:25

world has changed for her. And it's

21:28

just such an incredible performance. Sarah is

21:30

so wonderful in it. It feels like

21:32

deep and profound. And it's really funny

21:34

also because it's you know, she's eating a

21:36

piece of fish. And she somehow like she

21:38

conveys all of it in that moment. And

21:40

I think it sort of encapsulates the whole

21:43

season in a way in that one moment.

21:45

So I love that moment. Last

21:47

question. Julia is coming over for dinner. What

21:50

would you make her? So the thing that

21:52

I've been making a lot recently, and I

21:54

think Julia would like it, it's like one

21:56

of the New York Times sheet pan recipes.

21:59

Sheet pan chicken with jam. tomatoes or something

22:01

it's called. But it's so beautiful and we

22:03

have this like plate with lemons. Anyway, I

22:06

think Julia would really like it. The flavors

22:08

are very provence and we serve it with

22:10

a baguette with salted French butter and we

22:12

serve it with a nice simple salad and

22:15

I feel like Julia would love that. I

22:17

got to meet because of you Claudia Fleming and

22:20

I've made her chocolate caramel tart which is it's

22:22

doable. I thought it was gonna be impossible and

22:24

I got it like first time out. I think

22:26

Julia would like that. Oh, Claudia

22:28

Fleming one of the country's most famous

22:30

pastry chef. She's fabulous. Daniel, thank

22:33

you so much. Season two is delightful. I'm

22:35

so thrilled you're all back. Thank

22:37

you. We'll be talking to

22:39

Daniel again later in the season. Next

22:42

up, an actual French chef and

22:44

one of the most respected around.

22:46

It's Eric Ripert of New York

22:48

City's La Bernadette, which has received

22:50

countless accolades over the years including

22:52

three Michelin stars. Eric

22:54

joins me to talk about his most memorable

22:56

encounter with Julia and we chat about his

22:59

specialty and his brand new cookbook, Seafood

23:01

Simple. Eric

23:09

Ripert, welcome to Dishing on Julia. Thank you

23:11

very much for having me. Eric,

23:13

let's jump right in. Everyone knows Julia Child

23:16

as the French chef but you are an

23:18

actual French chef. Can we verify that? Yes,

23:20

I am actually. Yes. Raised

23:23

in France and did my

23:25

studies in France. Where did

23:27

you grow up? I

23:29

was born in Antibes. I grew up most

23:31

of my childhood in the French Riviera province.

23:34

When I was age 11, my mother moved

23:36

to Andorra, which is a small country between

23:39

France and Spain. Then I

23:41

did my culinary school at 15

23:43

in Perpignon, the south of France. Moved

23:45

to Paris after graduation. I was

23:47

17 and started my career in

23:50

La Tour d'Argentre in 1982

23:52

when they were celebrating 400 year anniversary

23:54

of the restaurant. Did you say 400?

23:57

400. That's incredible. Let's

24:00

go back a little bit. When did you know

24:02

you wanted to be a chef? My entire life,

24:04

I wanted to be the chef that I am

24:07

today. Age four or five,

24:09

I was passionate by eating good food,

24:11

of course, and always in

24:13

the kitchen of my mother and grandmothers. They're

24:16

a different style of cooking. I

24:18

had a grandmother from north part of

24:20

Italy and one from Provence cooking

24:23

soul food from their own region. And

24:25

my mom was extremely influenced

24:27

by nouvelle cuisine and the generation

24:29

of chefs like Paul Bocuse and

24:32

Michel Guerard. And I

24:34

was eating those very elaborate meals at

24:36

home where my mother, who was actually

24:38

a business lady, was waking up at

24:41

5 a.m. on the morning to make sure

24:43

that we have a lunch and a

24:45

dinner with appetizer, main course, and

24:47

dessert that were different every

24:49

day of the week. It's really

24:51

tough to do that, but I had

24:53

the passion for eating and then later on

24:56

I had the passion for cooking. And

24:58

I wanted to be the chef that I am

25:00

today, the chef of Le Bernard. I

25:03

wanted to have a beautiful dining room

25:05

with a lot of waiters to create

25:07

an experience, of course, a beautiful kitchen

25:09

with all the equipment, all the most

25:11

beautiful products that you can find, and

25:14

a lot of cooks everywhere to be

25:16

able to work with me as

25:18

a team and create the vision that I have.

25:21

And it happened. So 15, you go

25:23

to culinary school, 17, you go to Paris.

25:26

And start working in kitchens there.

25:28

I'm imagining kitchens back then in

25:30

Paris were not easy places. No,

25:32

it was very tough, especially in

25:35

fine dining. Well, I think everywhere the kitchens were a very

25:38

difficult world. It was a

25:40

lot of verbal abuse, a lot of physical abuse

25:42

being kicked in a butt and they will punch

25:45

you in the shoulders and throw plates at you

25:47

and things like that. And

25:49

glorifying basically abuse, which

25:52

is a huge mistake and

25:54

not acceptable at all. But

25:57

at that time it was almost

25:59

glorified. chefs

26:01

were small dictators that could do

26:03

whatever they want and terrify the

26:05

staff. And the philosophy

26:07

supposedly was we're going to take

26:10

young people, we're going to break

26:12

them psychologically and bring champions in

26:14

them. In that process, we were

26:16

losing so much talent. When you think about it, it

26:18

doesn't make any sense. And

26:21

it's no excuse for having an

26:23

abusive attitude in any place.

26:26

What you described sounds like the military and

26:28

you did do military service. Yes, military service

26:30

actually felt like a vacation. Although I didn't

26:32

really understand the purpose of what I was

26:35

doing with them, which was to clean

26:37

one side of the plaza where

26:39

we had leaves in a fall and bring them

26:42

to the right side and then bring them back

26:44

to the left side or carry stones in my

26:46

bag. That I didn't really

26:48

understand, but the military were very,

26:50

very rigid and tough, but they were

26:52

not abusive. It was a lot of

26:55

discipline. I didn't see any

26:57

officer being abusive. It

26:59

was tough, but again,

27:01

structure. In a kitchen, it

27:04

was tough, but it was

27:06

not necessarily a structure. The chef

27:08

was an angry person who had

27:10

the right to do anything he wants. So

27:13

shocking. In many kitchens, not all of them, many of

27:15

them. So you leave

27:17

France, you come to Washington DC. Why

27:19

DC? Washington DC because

27:21

Joel Robichon, one of my mentors, sent

27:24

me to Jean-Louis Paladins at the Watergate

27:26

Hotel, and I have a job there. And

27:28

Julia spent time in DC. She was a

27:30

very good friend with Jean-Louis Paladins. They had

27:32

a very good relationship. You're in

27:35

DC for a little while. Why do you even come to New

27:37

York? I come to New York because

27:39

DC is boring and

27:41

New York is happening. Well, when

27:43

you're a young person and you want to party

27:45

on a weekend, it's not the ideal place. But

27:48

also New York had a lot to offer.

27:51

It's still happening today. New York reinvented

27:53

itself all the time, but he brings

27:55

all the talents from all over the

27:57

world. And in a culinary world, it's not the ideal

28:00

place. world, David Boulet was really doing

28:02

extremely well and was a lot

28:04

of chefs doing very creative stuff.

28:07

Le Bernardin was also one of the famous

28:09

restaurants in New York at the time with

28:11

Le Cirque and many others. I started to

28:13

work with David Boulet as his sous-chef and

28:16

then a bit later I had

28:18

his offer at Le Bernardin to become the Chef

28:20

de Cuisine of Gilbert Le Coz and

28:22

in 1991 I started at Le Bernardin.

28:25

What did they do to entice you over to Le

28:27

Bernardin? They didn't do much because

28:29

on the beginning they contacted me and I

28:31

said I am not interested by the position

28:33

and then Jean-Louis Paladins said, if you're crazy

28:36

this is an amazing opportunity. Why you say

28:38

no? I had

28:40

my justifications at the time but

28:43

it took quite some time for me

28:45

to say yes and then the minute I

28:47

walked into Le Bernardin to work it was

28:49

on June 10 at 7.40 am. I

28:52

look at my watch because I felt

28:54

something was, I don't know, out of

28:56

the ordinary and I was right. My

28:59

sixth sense was telling me that Le

29:01

Bernardin will be an important part of

29:03

my life, professional life. And

29:06

it absolutely has been. Today Le Bernardin is a

29:08

Michelin three-star restaurant and one of the

29:10

most highly regarded restaurants in New York City if

29:12

not the world at large. We

29:15

definitely strive for excellence and

29:17

we are lucky to be

29:19

rewarded by the New York

29:21

Times and by the Michelin, many

29:23

other media. And we

29:26

are grateful and we celebrate those awards but

29:28

the day after we forget about it completely

29:30

and we go back to what we are

29:32

supposed to do which is work hard in

29:34

creating an experience that is very special for

29:36

our clients. So tell us a little bit

29:38

about Le Bernardin for those who haven't had

29:41

the good fortune to visit. Le

29:43

Bernardin opened in Paris in 1972. Brother

29:46

and sister, Maggie Le Coz, Gilbert Le Coz, she's

29:48

in a dining room, he's in a they

29:51

moved to New York in 1986. They

29:54

had a two-star at the time in

29:56

Paris, closed the restaurant in Paris completely,

29:59

start again in New York. York and right

30:01

away gets a first time in a New York

30:03

time. Three months after the opening is the first

30:05

time that it happens in the history of the

30:08

time. I joined a few years later in 1991.

30:11

Gilbert LeCose unfortunately passed away in

30:13

1994, so three years after I

30:15

started and I stayed

30:18

with Maggie LeCose who's my business

30:20

partner and we're living

30:22

the dream. We are very successful. The

30:25

restaurant is busy. We are

30:27

rewarded all the time and it's something that

30:29

we don't take for granted. We

30:31

appreciate it and it's

30:34

giving us the opportunity to create

30:36

and to be innovative and to

30:38

reinvent ourselves and to teach people

30:40

what we have accumulated over the years and

30:42

so on. And I love it. It's

30:45

my passion. It's a lifestyle. Eric,

30:48

unlike many of your peers, you've focused exclusively

30:50

on The Bird of Den. I

30:52

mean, I know you've had some projects like your cookbooks, which we'll

30:54

talk about in a little bit, but so

30:56

many people expand their restaurant empires.

30:59

You have focused on La Bernadine like it's

31:01

the very special diamond that it is. Yes.

31:05

I came into the field of cooking

31:07

because I had the mentality of an

31:09

artisan, not necessarily of a

31:11

businessman. And I learned

31:14

how to become a businessman because you have

31:16

to manage a restaurant and you have to

31:18

be sustainable financially and it's very important. But

31:21

I have tremendous pleasure to be with my team

31:24

and to be in a kitchen or in

31:26

a dining room and interact with our clients.

31:28

And I feel that I am in control of what I'm

31:31

doing there. And I'm not a control freak. That's

31:33

not what I am. But I like

31:35

to be with them. And again, it's

31:37

an interaction and it's a world that I

31:39

love. I actually at one point I

31:41

tried to develop an open few restaurants, one

31:43

in Washington and one in Philadelphia. And

31:47

I really was not having it, not

31:49

happy about it at all. I was not

31:51

at La Bernadine, which I love to be.

31:54

And it didn't please me. So I stopped immediately

31:56

and I said, it's not for me. Now

31:59

my friend. who have a lot of restaurants

32:01

probably would be bored to death with one restaurant.

32:04

And if I had all the 50 restaurants that

32:06

they have, I would go nuts. But

32:10

when you talk to them, they all say they wish they had

32:12

one restaurant. They say that to me, yes. One

32:14

of your creative outlets is cookbooks, similar

32:16

to our friend Julia Child. Yes. And

32:18

your eighth cookbook is out right now.

32:20

It's called Eric O'Pare's Seafood Simple. It

32:23

is a gorgeous book. Thank you. Why

32:25

this book? And tell us how it connects to La Bernadette.

32:28

I think I have accumulated a lot of

32:30

cooking wisdom and knowledge

32:32

about seafood over the years in

32:35

between my experiences before La Bernadette and, of

32:37

course, being the chef that I am at

32:40

La Bernadette. I wanted to create this cookbook

32:42

to demystify how to cook seafood.

32:44

When I speak to people, very

32:47

often I hear, oh, I am intimidated. I

32:50

don't know. It's so difficult. Or I

32:52

don't know if I really like seafood.

32:54

It's too fishy for me and many

32:56

stories. And I was like, seafood is

32:59

not fishy when it's fresh. It doesn't

33:01

smell like fish. It doesn't taste strong.

33:03

It's very delicate and it's very great

33:05

in terms of flavor. And it's

33:08

the ultimate delicacy, actually. We

33:11

have created a book that

33:13

is almost idiot-proof. You

33:16

cannot miss if you really follow

33:18

our directions. And the

33:20

recipes are very simple for many reasons.

33:22

But the main reason is that seafood

33:24

is so delicate, the more you put

33:27

in a plate and the more you

33:29

elaborate and the more you lose the soul of

33:32

the fish, to enhance the quality

33:34

and make the seafood the star of

33:36

the plate, you have to be very

33:38

cautious of being simple and

33:41

precise, of course. Amazingly,

33:43

you have a recipe in here for a

33:45

dish that you served Julia Child. So you've

33:47

met Julia a few times. I met Julia

33:49

a few times, yes. Can you tell us

33:51

about one of the times she was in

33:53

your dining room at La Bernadine? Sure. It

33:56

was probably 1992 or something like that. And

34:00

we had a seared tuna

34:02

salad. So the tuna was,

34:04

called it with Herve de

34:06

Provence, seared, served very, very

34:08

rare, sliced very thinly,

34:10

almost like a sashimi style. So

34:13

the tuna was warm, but very

34:15

rare. And we were serving it with

34:18

salad and black truffle

34:20

vinaigrette. And I was happy to cook

34:23

for Julia, of course. And at the end of

34:25

the meal, I went to see her. She

34:27

spoke to me, and she said to me that

34:30

she had a good meal, but I forgot to cook

34:32

the tuna. And

34:34

I scratched my head, and I was like, what is she

34:37

talking about? I didn't understand. The

34:39

seared tuna salad was supposed to be extremely

34:42

rare, and it was a

34:44

cultural difference. And I went back from the dining

34:46

room in the kitchen, scratching my head. I was

34:48

like, oh my God, I'm sorry,

34:50

I didn't please Julia Child, but that

34:52

wasn't my intention to serve it like

34:54

this. So anyway, it was a

34:56

bit of a misunderstanding. You can

34:59

also make a confession right now. You didn't

35:01

necessarily always understand what Julia was telling you.

35:03

No, because first of all, I didn't really

35:05

speak English. She had a certain

35:07

way of articulating her speech, and she had

35:09

a very high pitch also with her voice.

35:12

And I was terrified to go see her

35:14

all the time, because she would say, oh,

35:16

that's the way I perceived it at

35:18

the time. And I was like,

35:20

what is she saying? And I

35:22

didn't know what to answer. So I was very,

35:24

very scared of her in that aspect. Eric,

35:27

do you have some perspective on why Julia

35:29

was so big and beloved at the time?

35:31

I mean, chefs were thrilled when she came

35:33

to their restaurant. Yes. She was a very

35:35

warm person. She loved,

35:37

except for my tuna salad, but she

35:40

loved food. And

35:42

she was very enthusiastic, and she

35:44

was promoting the world of the

35:46

chefs and the world of the

35:48

restaurant. And the chefs were

35:50

creating those relationships with her. And it was

35:53

very nice to have someone like her, also

35:55

as a French chef or French cook, to

35:57

have someone who loved so much. Michael

36:00

Ture, French cooking, who

36:02

had so much knowledge, who had done so

36:04

much for French cuisine in this country. So

36:07

that's why she was the most beloved person

36:09

in the media at the time. It's

36:12

so interesting when you mentioned that Le

36:14

Bernardin was very avant-garde at the time to

36:16

be serving dishes like that. And

36:19

I'm sure everyone who's watched the first episode

36:21

immediately thinks of the scene in Paul

36:24

Bocuse's restaurant. He's with Simca,

36:26

they're served the Lou and

36:28

it just blows Julia's mind. Tell

36:31

us a little bit about that dish. So the

36:33

Lou means wolf in French. So

36:35

it's Lou de mer, the wolf of the sea. But

36:38

it's a very delicate fish. Paul

36:40

Bocuse did it with past pastry

36:43

and it was presented at the table and it

36:45

was prepared table side by the waiters. What

36:48

is very interesting about this recipe is that

36:50

they use a technique that I believe they

36:52

invented at the time which was to remove

36:55

the skin of the fish with a very

36:57

sharp knife then to cover

36:59

the fish with the past pastry and bake

37:02

it. When the past pastry

37:04

will be cooked and fluffy and crunchy,

37:07

the fish will be cooked at the same time and

37:09

the waiters will cut it at the table. You

37:12

will have the skin in between the past

37:14

pastry and the flesh. It was flesh past

37:16

pastry and you could eat it at the

37:18

same time. And it

37:21

is still today remarkable because

37:23

it's nothing more satisfying than

37:25

this recipe and they

37:27

were serving it with a beurre blanc

37:29

and they still keep serving that dish

37:31

that is a signature and a classic

37:33

and it's always perfectly done there. So

37:35

it's something very special. Have you

37:38

ever made a Louancrout like that? Not

37:40

at Le Bernardin because we have

37:42

a different style of cooking and

37:45

we do cooking that is much

37:47

simpler in a sense and doesn't

37:49

require to be table side because

37:52

I'm not necessarily a fan

37:54

of table side. So table side isn't really

37:57

popular today but back in the day a

37:59

lot of restaurants the table side? Yes.

38:02

Well, before Nouvelle Cuisine, everything was

38:04

served on platters, either way

38:06

the waiter were going to the table with

38:08

the platter and you were serving yourself or

38:11

it was prepared table side which means

38:13

it was finished table side. Either way

38:15

flambé or the sauce was made on

38:17

the front of you or they were

38:19

slicing on the front of you, plating.

38:22

But then with Nouvelle Cuisine, started

38:24

in the late 60s, 70s, one

38:27

day at the restaurant to a grow in

38:29

the rowan in Bergen did a chef said,

38:31

you know what? I'm in control of my

38:34

food. I'm plating my own food. Not

38:36

the way there's anymore because I know exactly

38:38

the way I want to

38:40

create not only the decoration of the dish

38:42

but the dynamic and I want the flavor

38:45

to be a certain way and

38:47

nobody knows better than I do. And that was

38:49

a revolution. From that day on,

38:51

chefs started to plate their food and

38:54

I'm very happy to have the control

38:56

that I have in the kitchen by knowing

38:58

exactly when I'm plating what the client

39:00

will have. I do not necessarily want

39:02

the waiter to try their best and

39:04

I'm sure they do a good job but

39:07

it will never be the same as

39:09

if it's the kitchen doing it. We're

39:11

so used to the chef's vision today.

39:13

It's so interesting to me that once upon

39:15

a time that wasn't the case. It

39:17

wasn't the case. Tell us a

39:19

little bit about Paul Bocuse. Now, you never worked for

39:21

him but he was a hero of yours. Yes. Actually,

39:24

if I am in this field, if I am

39:26

today, the chef that I am today is also

39:29

because of Paul Bocuse because he

39:31

had a cookbook called La Cuisin

39:33

du Marche, The Cuisin of the

39:35

Market and that cookbook became worldwide

39:38

a bestseller everywhere all

39:40

over the planet, probably one of

39:42

the most sold cookbook. And

39:44

I was fascinated by it and instead

39:46

of studying after school, I will read

39:48

the recipes and I will read the

39:50

entire book night after night after night

39:52

and all the cookbooks. But

39:54

he inspired me so much that

39:57

I had bad grades and ... I

40:00

couldn't stay in school actually and

40:03

it was a huge opportunity for me to

40:05

go to culinary school which was considered a

40:07

vocational school and I started

40:09

my career because of him by accident as

40:12

well and I admire him because he

40:14

has been an incredible ambassador

40:17

for not only French cuisine

40:19

but for great food, great

40:21

dining experience. Paul Bocuse is

40:23

an icon. He will never be replaced. I

40:25

wonder if he and Julia ever met. We

40:28

never know they are together but in

40:30

real life I am sure they met. That's

40:32

a nice thought. Why do you think

40:34

Julia endures? In life you have

40:37

good food and bad food. She was

40:39

the greatest ambassador of good

40:41

food, good lifestyle and

40:43

she inspired people at the time.

40:46

She was extremely charismatic. She

40:48

had incredible personality. She

40:51

was very inspirational and

40:54

today she's still very much with

40:56

us with that legacy that she

40:58

left us behind which is her

41:00

cookbooks and TV shows that we can

41:03

always look at originals but it's very

41:05

inspiring to see movies on

41:07

her and TV series. It's

41:09

refreshing in many ways to

41:12

see that it was not

41:14

too long ago and she revolutionized our world.

41:17

Eric, Julia is coming over for dinner. What

41:19

do you serve? So Julia is coming for dinner.

41:22

I'm giving her my tuna salad

41:24

again and I will

41:26

cook it more but not

41:29

well done. We will have a

41:31

great discussion together and we will have a glass of

41:33

wine at the end. She

41:35

will like my tuna salad and

41:39

that will be my

41:42

story. What kind of wine

41:44

would you serve with that? With a tuna

41:46

salad, a good burgundy. That would

41:48

be very nice I think. And what do you

41:50

think you two would talk about? We will

41:52

speak about the tuna and about the fishermen

41:54

who caught the tuna and how he caught

41:56

it and where he caught it and

41:58

we will speak about it. about the

42:01

truffles that are in a salad and about the wine

42:03

and the winemaker and she will explain to me she

42:05

has been to the winemaker already

42:07

and we will speak about the

42:10

truffle that is in season and she has

42:12

been hunting for truffles with the dogs and

42:14

the truffle hunters and that will be the

42:16

discussion we will have and we will speak

42:18

for a long time and have many glasses

42:20

of wine, probably end up

42:23

with good chocolate desserts. And

42:25

you will understand every word she says. Now

42:27

I will understand, yes. Absolutely.

42:29

Well Eric, thank you so much for your time.

42:32

We really appreciate everything you've done for the food

42:34

world and the world of hospitality at large. You

42:37

are too kind. The real legend is Julia. Thank

42:39

you. Thank you to

42:41

Eric Ripert and Daniel Goldfarb for joining

42:43

us on Dishing on Julia, the official

42:45

companion podcast of Julia. Now

42:48

streaming on Max. Dishing on

42:50

Julia is produced by the Cherry Bomb Podcast Network.

42:53

Special thanks to Stephen Toll and the team at CityVox.

42:56

Our executive producers are Catherine Baker

42:58

and Yasmin Nezbat. Our associate producer

43:00

is Jenna Sadu and our editorial

43:02

assistant is London Crenshaw. I'm your

43:04

host, Kerry Diamond. We'd love

43:07

for you to leave a rating and review for Dishing

43:09

on Julia on your favorite podcast platform and be

43:11

sure to subscribe. Tell me

43:13

in the review what you would serve Julia for dinner.

43:16

Buffbargaignon, pizza, tuna sandwich,

43:18

I'd love to know. In the

43:20

meantime, leaving you with these wise words from

43:23

Paul Child as played by David Hyde Pierce.

43:26

The only way to stop the world from passing you

43:28

by is to do what

43:30

you've always done. Who was this? Walk

43:32

two steps ahead of it. So that's what

43:34

we'll do. Hey

43:46

again, it's Francis. We hope you enjoy

43:49

this episode from Dishing on Julia, the

43:51

official Julia companion podcast from Max. I

43:54

love hearing from both the creators of the

43:56

show and culinary icons. That's so much

43:58

more context for the life of Julia. So

44:01

if you are a fan of Julia's, a

44:03

food enthusiast, or just love a good story,

44:06

don't miss Dishing on Julia. Listen

44:08

to Dishing on Julia, the official companion

44:10

podcast to the Max original series, Julia,

44:13

on Max or wherever you get your podcasts.