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card. He got

1:18

me invested in some kind of

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fruit company. And

1:23

so then I got a call from him saying we don't have

1:25

to worry about money no more. And I said, that's

1:28

good. One less thing. Live

1:36

from Joe's mom's basement. It's

1:38

the Stacking Benjamin Show. I'm

1:50

Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug. And today

1:53

you'll learn how to live your

1:55

best life as your best self

1:57

with author and entrepreneur Guy Kawasaki.

2:00

In today's headline, FinTech firms are reaching

2:02

more people. This is good, right? That

2:05

they're beating banks? We'll discuss

2:07

what could possibly go wrong. Plus,

2:09

we'll hear why a stacker said,

2:11

I'd better call Saul. See

2:14

Hi in OG. And

2:16

finally, I'll share some thoughtful trivia.

2:19

And now, two guys who are remarkably

2:21

good at personal finance. It's

2:23

Joe and O. Juger,

2:25

Juger, G. Remarkably.

2:31

Hey there. Welcome to a

2:33

remarkable episode of the Stacky Benjamin Show.

2:35

I am Joe Saul, See Hi. And

2:37

I'm joined every Monday, Wednesday, Friday

2:39

with the man across the table from me

2:41

right now, Mr. OG. How

2:44

are you, brother? Remarkable. Have you

2:47

seen those remarkable tablets? Do

2:49

you know what I'm talking about? They're like, a little pencil.

2:51

You do? You're supposed to write like pencil.

2:54

We actually, one year, we looked into maybe

2:56

giving those as gifts, remember? No.

2:59

But I would approve you buying

3:01

me that gift. So I will take it.

3:04

I just remember thinking, cost benefit. Oh,

3:06

yeah. The accounting department approves. We're

3:09

a podcast. Take two, ask for it, and call

3:12

in the morning. Maybe next year. What were you

3:14

thinking there? What is it you especially like about

3:16

the remarkable tablet? Oh, well,

3:18

obviously, it has to. This

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started on personal. small business insurance

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that fits your needs. Like a good

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Thank God it comes with a warranty. Don't

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dunk it in the syrup. Oh, yeah,

5:27

that's a user error right there.

5:29

If you do guy Kawasaki talking

5:31

about living a remarkable life. You know,

5:34

we're not about just stacking more Benjamins.

5:36

We're about making them remarkable Benjamins and

5:38

guy Kawasaki is here to talk about that. But

5:41

before that, you know what

5:43

fans we are a fintech. Let's dive

5:45

in there first with today's headline. Hello,

5:48

darlings. And now it's time for

5:50

your favorite part of the show. Stacking

5:53

Benjamin's headlines. Our headline today comes

5:55

to us from investment news. This

5:57

is written by a meal. Hola's Sobering

6:00

report shows increasing reach of

6:02

FinTech over traditional firms. At

6:04

first I'm like, yeah, okay, Bank of America getting

6:06

their butt kicked by these. To be sober. Yeah,

6:09

that's right. Bank of America getting their butt kicked

6:11

by these little guys. So I'm like, what could

6:13

go wrong there? And Emil

6:15

writes, across America, people are twice as

6:17

likely to know about FinTech firms like

6:19

Robinhood and Chime than they are to

6:21

be aware of the latest services from

6:23

well-established companies like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs,

6:25

Fidelity, and Vanguard. While 40% of

6:27

US households have heard of Robinhood and 39% of Chime, only 19%

6:29

were familiar

6:32

with JP Morgan wealth plan, 15% with

6:35

Goldman Sachs' market business, 14% with

6:38

Fidelity Go, 13% with Vanguard Personal

6:40

Advisor Services, according to data published

6:43

Wednesday by consumer resource firm Hearts

6:45

and Wallets. The findings,

6:47

Hearts and Wallets CEO Laura

6:49

Vera said, are, quote, sobering.

6:53

And I would tend to agree there,

6:55

OG, while Vanguard, Fidelity, Goldman Sachs,

6:57

JP Morgan, not your buddies, not

6:59

your friends, the

7:01

fact that companies like

7:03

Robinhood have gotten so good,

7:06

so good at knowing the inner workings of

7:08

your phone and how to reach

7:10

you via your phone, and we're so addicted

7:13

to our phone that

7:15

we know Robinhood, and

7:17

for some of us we trust them more than

7:19

we trust a firm like Charles Schwab. Yeah,

7:22

but this seems a little apples

7:24

and oranges here. It sounded like

7:26

they're asking, hey, do you know

7:28

this brand Robinhood versus this sub-brand

7:30

Fidelity Go? I'm almost

7:33

betting that most people know Fidelity more

7:35

than they know Robinhood. There's more people

7:37

that recognize Fidelity or Goldman Sachs or

7:39

JP Morgan Chase. And when you get

7:41

niched down into, but did you know

7:43

that they offer this one little product

7:45

that they're trying to brand? Well,

7:47

no, I mean, I can't keep track of all that either,

7:49

but it feels a little apples

7:51

and oranges. I mean, I gotta imagine

7:54

most people are more familiar

7:56

with Schwab and Vanguard than Robinhood.

8:00

is an organization, it's going to be through your

8:02

app business, right? It's going to be through the way

8:05

that we're all communicating now. We can jump on

8:07

our phone, we open up the thing. If I'm

8:09

going to be with Goldman Sachs, well then Marcus

8:11

is something that I'll know about. If I'm going

8:13

to be with Fidelity, the growth area should be

8:15

probably go. We look at

8:17

online bank Chime, they talk about. I mean,

8:20

if I don't... Chime is a company people

8:22

know more than Bank

8:24

of America's online product. Again,

8:27

I think you're talking about

8:29

like a sub-brand niche thing.

8:31

I mean, the

8:33

company Goldman Sachs has way more

8:35

brand cash than Chime.

8:38

But if you're trying to get into Goldman

8:41

Sachs, that's just... I mean, you don't

8:44

show up via an

8:46

app, you have to show up with

8:48

$10 million. Well, sure, but I'd be

8:50

interested to see what percentage of younger

8:52

people, you know, just

8:54

know Goldman Sachs,

8:57

let's take as an example, versus

9:00

the collection of Chime plus Robinhood.

9:03

Like I would bet that if I'm 30, probably

9:06

Chime plus Robinhood resonates with me way more

9:09

than Goldman Sachs. And maybe, well, of course

9:11

it does. It's out of your market. I

9:13

mean, it's like going, hey, did you know

9:15

that there's a gated community over there that

9:17

has $30 million houses in it? It's like...

9:19

Let's take the other side, let's take Fidelity

9:21

Go. Fidelity versus Chime, I

9:24

guarantee more people know Fidelity. Fidelity

9:26

Go is a product. It's their... I mean, I

9:29

don't know how to say it. It's

9:31

a service offering underneath their overall

9:33

brand of Fidelity pointed at

9:35

a specific... Doesn't it feel like... I

9:38

don't know. If I'm... Because I see the marketing for

9:40

all these companies, if I'm 27 years

9:44

old and I'm looking

9:46

at establishing my first relationship with a

9:48

company and you've seen how

9:50

sticky these relationships are, the reason why

9:52

companies want to get your direct deposit

9:55

is because once they get your direct deposit,

9:57

it's a hellish game to move it, right?

10:00

So everybody wants to get these automatic things, and I'm

10:02

not saying that it's bad to do that. It actually

10:04

is good for you to do that. I mean, automate

10:06

as much of the stuff as you possibly can, because

10:10

it's not about discipline. But I also

10:12

think that if I'm 27 years old,

10:14

I see chime

10:16

and Robinhood as these

10:19

closer to me companies

10:22

that feel like companies that I can

10:24

easily deal with. Fidelity

10:27

feels to me, even through

10:29

their marketing, like a

10:31

big, huge ass institution. And

10:34

that I've got to become a part of

10:36

the machine, which is

10:38

kind of a lie in both

10:40

cases, because chime and Robinhood are

10:43

machines as well. Yeah, I guess maybe

10:45

they're betting on the future, right? I mean, like I'll

10:47

take your $500 a week

10:49

deposit, because I know that if I

10:51

can get your money now, maybe you'll

10:54

eventually turn into the $5,000 a

10:57

week deposit 10 years

10:59

from now or whatever. And I

11:01

can see that. Obviously, like my

11:03

kids have a banking relationship at

11:05

our credit union that's branded for

11:08

the kids. They get rewarded

11:10

for saving. They get rewarded for

11:12

having good grades. It's

11:14

very much like, hey, where's your buddy? Because

11:17

it'll be easier for them when they get

11:19

to, oh, I have a real

11:21

job. What do I do? Oh, I'll just go

11:23

to the same bank that I have been with

11:25

since I was a teenager, because they're nice to

11:28

me. And then it's like, now I

11:30

need to get a mortgage. Oh, well, just go to the

11:32

bank. There's definitely some value in

11:34

that, bringing the dollars in

11:36

regardless of the level. But

11:39

I think the argument, at

11:41

least as I heard it here in this article, was

11:44

these companies are falling behind. No, I don't think

11:46

that's the sobering part. I think for me and

11:48

for these people, the sobering part is how much

11:51

headway they've made about how

11:53

much further along. We think of these

11:55

fintech companies as these little tiny companies

11:58

that are not really – No, no,

12:00

no, no, no. In that future that you're talking about,

12:02

I think that they're betting on, I bet

12:04

10 years from now, this is a much different ballgame than

12:06

this today. I'm not saying they'll take over in 10 years.

12:09

But I think that ballgame is going to be much,

12:11

much more in, sadly,

12:13

Robinhood and Chime's favor if

12:16

this trend continues. Yeah,

12:18

could be. I mean, look at Betterment

12:20

and Wealthfront. Another couple of good examples.

12:23

Betterment's sponsor of this podcast.

12:26

Sorry. Then just look at Betterment. Yeah,

12:28

I think that's another point. I'm not sure

12:30

if that's another one. They're evil. Well,

12:33

you make a great point about credit unions because

12:35

you can make a case that – and I

12:38

said these companies are not your buddy. If

12:40

there is any of these companies that could

12:42

have a chance to be your buddy, a

12:45

credit union much more likely could be your

12:47

buddy because they're member-owned. They'll

12:49

be closer to being your buddy.

12:52

And when I was the emcee of

12:54

the recent Relevant Conference out in Las

12:57

Vegas, one of the big themes I

12:59

heard these credit unions talk about is

13:01

the fact that the data

13:04

they had was that people are

13:06

much more likely to trust Citibank

13:08

than their local credit union. You know what the difference was?

13:11

Advertising. The difference was that Citibank

13:13

advertisers were your buddy. I will tell you, given

13:15

Citibank versus my local credit union, I trust my

13:17

local credit union to do the right thing more

13:19

than I trust Citibank to do the right thing.

13:21

Well, let's get rid of Citibank. Let's say Bank

13:23

of America because I don't trust them at all.

13:27

I've been on record for a long time saying that one.

13:29

But yeah, people do trust Bank of America more

13:32

because of advertising. I think that when we

13:34

look at our phones and how prevalent

13:37

our phones are in our life and

13:39

the way that Chime and Robinhood have

13:41

made all these inroads, people

13:44

likely to trust Robinhood. You and I know,

13:47

and I'm not going to replay this. I mean,

13:49

feel free to write me if you want the

13:51

lowdown on how scummy Robinhood is. Robinhood

13:53

just has this history. Just Google it. Yeah, that's

13:56

true. You don't need to write it. Don't

13:59

write, Joe. Just Google it. Robinhood, just

14:01

this history of not doing the right thing.

14:04

And yet, we see it in front of us and we

14:06

trust it. Not

14:08

a great way to monitor what the right move is. Well,

14:10

you got to look after yourself. That's the major thing. Just

14:12

like we were talking about on Monday with credit cards. If

14:15

you're not being served by it, don't spend

14:17

195 bucks on a credit card every year

14:19

if it's not serving a purpose. Like get

14:21

rid of the darn thing and find

14:24

something that does serve you. Not that 195 or 595 or whatever the

14:26

annual fee is a big deal. It's

14:30

just that it's foolish not to get value

14:32

out of it, whatever that value is. $500

14:35

on nothing. Yeah,

14:37

I mean, or you're spending $500 on

14:39

an amazing experience because you use all

14:41

the benefits that are associated with that

14:43

tool. Trust me, MX

14:46

or Chase, whomever, they're getting

14:48

plenty rich and all the people that just like

14:50

to have the plastic in their wallet and they

14:52

don't need to spend the money on

14:54

updating it. But if you're

14:57

taking advantage of all of the things,

14:59

then it's valuable for you. I don't have our

15:02

banking relationships at a major bank nor at

15:04

a credit union. We use a local regional

15:06

bank because I want to have

15:08

somebody that calls me and goes, dude,

15:11

you're going to overdraft your checking account unless you move some

15:13

money into it. Oh, yes,

15:15

sorry, my bad. As opposed to, hey, guess what?

15:19

We didn't pay that bill and we charged you $32. They

15:23

tell you that five days later via

15:25

a postal letter as opposed to a

15:27

notification. And then to call, you go

15:29

into phone bank hell. Yeah. So

15:32

we tracked down a bank that's regional, that's a

15:34

big enough bank and has all of our business,

15:36

all of our personal stuff and all of our

15:38

business stuff. And they so far have

15:40

treated us really well. So all

15:43

this stuff you need to look at, whether it's

15:45

banking or whatever the relationship is, I mean, hell,

15:47

your doctor needs to work for you. I

15:51

think that's the key to value in life is am

15:53

I being served by this? We talk about subscriptions on

15:55

Monday. Yeah. You know, am I being served

15:58

by having all these subscriptions? Am I being served by these credit card? Am

16:00

I being served by these? Which means there's a

16:02

little due diligence. I think that's our second takeaway

16:04

here, OG, is there's got to be some due

16:06

diligence. Don't just go, oh yeah, I've heard of

16:08

Robinhood. Robinhood seems cool. I'm just going

16:10

to jump on that. Well, do a quick Google search

16:12

and you'll find out. Remember the pushback I got when

16:14

I started railing against Robinhood? Like people go, why are

16:17

you picking on Robinhood? Robinhood's a new

16:19

company. No, Robinhood's not a new company. Well, Robinhood

16:21

just messed up once. No, they haven't messed up

16:23

once. They've messed up a lot in

16:25

areas where they shouldn't. People get

16:27

so into the advertising

16:30

and we get so defensive that the thing that

16:32

we did might have been the wrong thing that

16:35

we just want to naturally go, no, I didn't

16:37

do the wrong thing. No, Robinhood's fine. Dude,

16:39

I remember 20 plus years ago, I

16:42

was having a conversation with an advisor's

16:44

client. I was leading an office at

16:47

Ameriprise and we were

16:49

replacing a New York Life whole

16:52

life policy. We went

16:54

through the whole, like, okay, term versus permanent.

16:57

This is a short-term need. We know it's until

16:59

your daughter graduates. It's kind of like building the

17:01

whole case of you don't need whole life. You

17:03

need term. And if you don't need whole

17:06

life, you need term, you should swap it

17:08

out. And oh, by the way, look at all these premiums

17:11

that you'll be saving, which now you can direct

17:13

toward your retirement or

17:15

your kids' college. These goals get achieved,

17:17

da-da-da-da. And this woman

17:19

looked at us and went, so what

17:21

are we talking about here? And so I

17:24

boiled it down. I said, we

17:26

need to apply for a new policy. Once

17:28

that gets in place, then we're going to cancel

17:30

the New York Life policy. And she said,

17:33

I can't cancel that. New York Life, it's the

17:35

company that you keep. Like

17:39

the gears in my head just stopped moving. I

17:41

was like, wow, the

17:44

advertising stuck. My second time

17:46

hearing that story. And A,

17:49

A, I didn't stop you, and B, I

17:51

laughed again because that's such a great story.

17:54

That's advertising. Just the company you

17:56

keep. Sticks with us. No

17:58

shame on New York Life, by the way. I mean, they're

18:00

great company and you know, they've got stuff

18:02

that work for people New York life. You'd like to sponsor

18:04

the show We will just tell

18:07

everybody tough. Don't cancel New York life. Yeah, we'll change

18:09

our tune I'll change that whole story up and

18:11

then I sold her a New York life policy because

18:13

it's the company you keep This

18:17

segment sponsored by yeah exactly

18:19

We will of course dive more into that

18:21

in our 201 newsletter near the

18:23

bottom of the 201 newsletter Stack

18:26

you Benjamin's comm slash 201

18:29

gets you signed up for our newsletter comes

18:31

out every Tuesday and Thursday absolutely free not

18:33

only Talks about topics like the

18:35

one we just discussed and goes deeper into

18:37

them, but also tells you what's happening and

18:40

OG I'm gonna have an announcement on

18:43

the back porch today about something else where

18:45

I will be going and maybe Maybe

18:47

you'll be able to join me too. I'm gonna try to strong arm

18:49

you into coming with me, too Well,

18:51

we will see amazing if I got invited

18:53

to things well, I'm going to invite you

18:55

publicly We're gonna see everybody what happened probably

18:58

already happened retroactively invited

19:00

to the thing last week he's

19:02

already back it away We'll

19:05

see well you let me know the reason

19:07

why we talked about our headline at the bottom of

19:09

the 201 is because we dive even

19:11

deeper into our Mentor

19:13

of the day and the topic they

19:15

bring and today we're gonna talk about

19:17

being remarkable with the gentleman who's incredibly

19:19

remarkable Guy Kawasaki He

19:22

is currently the chief evangelist of Canva,

19:24

which is a platform that we use

19:26

to create great graphics all the time

19:29

However, what I love about

19:31

guy Kawasaki when we were just

19:33

starting our blog originally the free

19:35

financial advisor blog We're starting this

19:37

podcast guy Kawasaki was a

19:39

guy who gave us lots and lots and

19:41

lots of Fantastic advice.

19:44

I used to watch his stuff all the time.

19:46

So to be able to talk Specifically

19:49

to guy Kawasaki is amazing. He

19:51

was of course the chief evangelist

19:53

of Apple back in the day

19:56

with Wikimedia Foundation Mercedes-Benz

19:59

brand-new Ambassador, Special Assistant to

20:01

the Motorola division at Google. He

20:04

is quite a guy and we're going to learn

20:06

to be remarkable from this remarkable man. But

20:09

first, Doug, I think you've got some trivia for

20:11

us. Hey

20:16

there, stackers. I'm Joe's mom's neighbor. Doug Spring

20:18

is right around the corner and I've been

20:20

thinking of creative ways to spend more time

20:22

outside this year. I already do all of

20:24

the yard work for Joe's mom and myself.

20:27

But this morning I came up with a

20:29

brilliant idea to get more fresh air. I'm

20:31

going to have a punching bag installed in

20:33

my garage. I haven't boxed since that one

20:35

time in a high school gym class. But

20:38

you know, I think I still got it.

20:40

I can feel it in my bones. My

20:43

favorite boxer and probably everyone else's is

20:45

the greatest, Muhammad Ali. He won

20:47

an impressive 56 matches

20:49

and lost only five over his career. Sounds

20:51

like my dating record. Come to think of

20:53

it, I got a lot in common with

20:56

him. I'm charming, beloved. I look great

20:58

in satin shorts and I'm so fast that

21:00

I'm in bed before the room gets dark.

21:03

Well, you know, I have to clapper, but still. Today's

21:06

trivia question is what remarkable stance

21:08

did Ali take that put his

21:10

career in jeopardy? I'll be

21:12

back right after I order a satin robe

21:14

with Joe's mom's neighbor, Doug, stitched across the

21:16

back. And

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dell.com/deals. Hey

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there stackers, I'm amateur boxer

22:58

and fastest man in

23:03

digital data, Joe's mom's neighbor Doug. Nearly

23:05

50 years after he won the heavyweight

23:08

championship for the first time after defeating

23:10

Sonny Liston, the gloves Ali wore for

23:12

that title match sold for $836,000, which

23:17

is 200,000 more than he

23:19

earned from winning the fight. Today's

23:21

trivia question is what remarkable stance

23:23

did Muhammad Ali take that put

23:26

his career in jeopardy? The answer

23:28

born Cassius Clay, Muhammad Ali changed

23:30

his name after joining the nation

23:32

of Islam. His religious beliefs disallowed

23:35

him from fighting in a war. His

23:37

decision to refuse induction into the

23:40

military and declare himself a conscientious

23:42

objector caused him to lose his

23:44

boxing license for three years. The

23:46

Supreme Court later found him to

23:49

be a sincere objector and overturned

23:51

the ruling in a unanimous vote,

23:53

reinstating his license and restarting his

23:55

career. And now here to

23:58

teach you how to live remarkably. It's

24:00

today's mentor, Guy Kawasaki.

24:04

I'm super happy he's joining me at the card

24:06

table. Guy Kawasaki's here. How

24:08

are you, man? Ah, I'm great. Your

24:11

mom is a remarkable woman. I

24:14

enjoyed our conversation. She is

24:16

clearly the better part of this entire

24:18

operation. Like if she would

24:21

actually get on microphone, I think this podcast

24:23

might go somewhere, Guy. It might. Well, the

24:25

seed doesn't fall far from the tree. Well,

24:27

we will see about that, my friend. I

24:30

know quite a bit about you having followed

24:32

your work for a long time, Guy. But

24:35

one thing I didn't know is exactly where

24:37

you start this latest project. One

24:39

of my favorite ad campaigns of all

24:41

time was the Think Different campaign that

24:43

Apple had. You were in that room.

24:45

You were in the room when different

24:47

ad agencies were presenting to Apple. Tell

24:49

me, paint us a picture of that

24:51

moment. Okay. I

24:54

was an Apple Fellow at the time. It

24:56

was my second tour of duty at Apple.

24:58

And Steve was not yet back

25:01

as CEO. He

25:03

had sold next to Apple and he

25:06

was kind of hanging around the

25:08

fringes, but not exactly clear what

25:10

exactly he was doing. I

25:13

believe the VP of marketing at the time

25:15

was Garino De Luca. He

25:17

went on to become CEO of Logitech. So

25:20

Garino De Luca assembles his

25:22

marketing staff and as

25:24

an Apple Fellow focusing on marketing, I

25:26

was invited to that meeting and

25:29

in comes the ad agency. And

25:32

it's a guy named Lee Clow and he was involved

25:34

with 1984 commercial.

25:37

So he goes way back with

25:39

Apple, brilliant, brilliant marketing and advertising

25:41

guy. So he shows

25:44

a video of the

25:46

spots for Think Different and

25:48

for people not even

25:51

alive in 1997, Think Different was an ad

25:55

campaign focusing people like Gandhi

25:58

and Martin Luther King and

26:00

Einstein and Pablo Picasso.

26:02

The innovators outcast. The

26:05

wild children, yeah. All

26:08

the people who are thinking different and

26:10

the message was that if you wanna

26:12

be an innovator and an artist and

26:15

an outlier, you have to think

26:18

different. You can't just think like

26:20

everybody else, i.e. using Windows. You

26:23

have to think different and use a

26:25

Macintosh. The ad really resonated

26:27

with all of us in the room because

26:29

at the time, just everybody

26:31

was just crapping on Apple. So you

26:33

had to really be a believer to

26:35

continue to use a Macintosh. This is

26:37

97. And

26:40

so it really appealed to

26:43

sort of that rebellious individual,

26:45

innovator, artist kind

26:47

of personality and Macintosh users.

26:49

So anyway, Lee shows

26:51

the ads, we all love it. Then at

26:53

the very end, a kid you

26:55

not, Lee says, I have

26:57

two copies of these videos with me.

27:00

Steve, I'll give you one and I'll

27:02

give the other one to Guy. And

27:05

Steve says, don't give one

27:07

to Guy. And

27:09

I'm like sitting there incredulous, right? I

27:12

said, Steve, you don't trust me,

27:14

is that why? And Steve says,

27:16

yes, Guy, I do not trust you. Right

27:20

there, this is one of those make or break

27:22

moments in your life where you either say, I

27:25

teed it off, you know, I connected,

27:28

I hit the ball out of the

27:30

park, I caught the wave, I scored

27:32

the goal, I killed the guy.

27:34

This is one of those moments. You either

27:36

stand up for it or you don't. Without

27:39

even thinking, I said, that's okay, Steve,

27:41

I don't trust you either. Now,

27:45

maybe that cost me $10 million, but it

27:47

was worth it. What

27:49

was Steve like then? Did you seriously

27:51

not trust you? Why wouldn't he trust

27:54

you? I don't know. I

28:02

wasn't the leak all those years. All

28:04

the stories you've heard about Steve are

28:07

true. He was truly remarkable.

28:09

I mean, people throw around

28:11

the terms like visionary and

28:13

innovator and all that pretty

28:15

loosely, right? Like if you

28:17

create the 25th Twitter clone,

28:19

you call yourself a visionary

28:21

and innovator. Hey, Mark

28:25

Zuckerberg, we're so innovative. We created

28:27

threads. Whoa, Mark. Wow.

28:32

You release threads. So innovative.

28:34

People can post messages. Wow.

28:38

But Steve truly was. It

28:41

was difficult to work for him because he

28:43

had such high standards. And

28:45

let's just say that he

28:47

clearly didn't have the kind

28:50

of Marcus Welby bedside mannerisms.

28:53

Let's just say. And so he

28:55

was very brutally frank and he would not

28:57

hesitate to call you a bozo in front

29:00

of the entire company. You know, he just

29:02

he was just like that. And

29:04

I wouldn't say he was sadistic

29:06

or mean spirit or whatever.

29:08

He was just very blunt.

29:11

And I'll tell you something with hindsight. It's

29:14

better to deal with someone who is blunt

29:16

and honest and has good taste than someone

29:18

who is full of and

29:20

doesn't have the ability to really make a

29:22

judgment. I actually was

29:24

scared working for Steve all the time because

29:27

I often thought someday he's going to

29:29

just rip me in public. And

29:32

so contrary to every HR series that

29:34

you have ever heard about, you

29:37

need to have form an emotional

29:39

bond with your employees and communicate

29:41

openly and focus on the positive

29:43

and you know, Kumbaya and we're

29:45

Birkenstocks and sip white wine and

29:47

hold hands and walk together on

29:49

the beach. Steve Jobs

29:52

was like none of that. But

29:54

I tell you something, he was formative

29:56

in my career. I would not be where I

29:59

am without Steve Jobs. God bless

30:01

his soul. Well you start this

30:03

because obviously think different

30:05

was not marketing computers guy

30:07

It was marketing feelings It

30:10

was it was marketing this belief that I

30:12

can be something that I can do more

30:14

if I just bought go buy this product

30:16

for Apple, right Mel

30:18

the fusion of feelings

30:21

with product was something that Apple

30:24

has always been great at

30:26

but you start this story here because

30:28

Because you say that we need to

30:30

go even further think different is fine

30:32

But in 2023 we need

30:34

to go beyond think different and

30:37

and my case is you can't just be

30:39

thinking differently You have a higher

30:41

standard now you have to think remarkably

30:44

You need to think about how to

30:46

truly jump to the next curve

30:48

how to truly, you know Fulfill

30:50

customer needs and stuff. So

30:53

different is not always good Let's

30:56

just say but remarkable

30:58

is always remarkable. I would make that

31:00

case and So

31:02

I I needed a story to set

31:05

the tone of the book Because

31:08

I don't want people to just be thinking.

31:10

Oh, yeah, if I'm different, I'm good. I

31:12

mean you could be different and suck so

31:14

to me the Definition

31:17

of remarkable is that you've made

31:19

a difference You've made

31:22

the world of it a place now I

31:24

don't want people to get all bent out

31:26

of shape saying oh so guy what you're

31:28

saying is if I'm not Steve Jaws, I'm

31:31

a failure if I'm not Jane

31:33

Goodall. I'm a failure That's

31:35

not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying, you

31:37

know, you can make a difference to one person

31:39

That person could even be you you

31:42

could make a difference to a classroom

31:44

to a pop-on or football team It

31:47

could be to a pond in your

31:49

neighborhood as long as you make

31:51

a difference you can be remarkable It doesn't mean

31:53

you have to be Steve Jobs or Elon Musk

31:56

or Jane Goodall. I Don't

31:58

know if you're into the chef scene, but I love it this show

32:00

on Netflix, Chef's Table. Have you seen Chef's Table? I

32:04

used to watch the one where they have

32:07

the three chefs and the time limit. Oh,

32:09

no. What's Chef's Table? Chef's

32:12

Table is just where they do these profiles of

32:14

some of the best chefs on Earth and they

32:16

kind of tell their backstory. Yeah. And

32:18

how these people, in many cases, they fought

32:20

their way through adversity to get where they

32:23

are and how they had to build teams.

32:26

In one of those episodes, the only reason

32:28

I bring this up, guys, in one of

32:30

those episodes, one of the chefs said, of

32:32

course, great food is table steaks. That doesn't

32:35

make a fantastic chef. That is just the

32:37

minimum bar, right? If I make great food,

32:39

that doesn't mean I'm providing this entire experience

32:41

for people to come into my restaurant. You

32:44

kind of start off by setting the table steaks at

32:46

a place in 2024 that I think we truly

32:50

need more of. I mean, we have this

32:52

election year. We all are fixed in our

32:54

opinions. We go on threads or acts or

32:56

wherever the hell we're going to go and

32:58

we just fight about why I'm right and

33:01

you're wrong. You kind of

33:03

set the table steaks at this growth

33:05

mindset idea. And it seems like Carol

33:08

Dweck really helps you paint a good

33:10

picture here. Yes.

33:13

Carol Dweck is a professor at

33:16

Stanford, tiny woman,

33:18

petite woman. She

33:21

breaks all the stereotypes about

33:23

98-pound weaklings. She's a 98-pound

33:25

goddess. Also,

33:28

the crux of a growth mindset

33:31

is the belief that what

33:33

you are today is not your limitation.

33:36

You can learn new skills. You can

33:38

learn new things. You can

33:40

improve. And this also

33:42

applies to people who are successful. So

33:45

one of the limitations of the fixed

33:47

mindset is not only that you think

33:50

you can't do more or better, but

33:52

it could be very successful people who

33:54

are very good at one thing. They

33:57

want to preserve their self-image.

34:00

So they don't risk it and try

34:02

anything else. So you know,

34:04

maybe you're very good at physics, but you don't

34:06

want to learn how to try surfing because you

34:09

know you're going to make an ass of yourself

34:11

by surfing, which is kind of what I

34:13

did. So anyway, of

34:16

the 200 people I've interviewed for my

34:18

podcast who are remarkable, every

34:20

one of them had a growth mindset. Nobody

34:23

said, I am what I am, I cannot be

34:25

anymore. This is it. Maybe

34:28

who's remarkable has that attitude. Is

34:30

it this fundamental question of instead

34:33

of defending why I'm right guy, maybe we

34:35

need to start asking where am I wrong?

34:37

Yeah. Well, I

34:40

mean, you open the door with the discussion of

34:42

2024 politics. And

34:45

trust me, I don't know where you are in the spectrum.

34:48

But I guarantee you, there are people that look

34:51

at others and say, how the

34:53

hell can he believe that? Right?

34:56

How can Nikki Haley not mention

34:58

slavery? How can she say that

35:01

America has not been a racist country?

35:04

And what I learned by interviewing

35:06

a guy named Mark Labberton, who

35:08

was the CEO of Fuller Seminary,

35:10

which is kind of the Harvard

35:12

Business School of Christianity.

35:16

Although you know, if you think about it,

35:18

even that metaphor, Harvard Business School of Anything,

35:21

that used to be an

35:23

absolute positive, but maybe not

35:25

anymore. Even that's come under

35:27

fire. Yeah. So

35:29

I mean that in a positive way.

35:32

Sure. So I asked him

35:34

this question, you know, like, how can people come to

35:36

believe stuff like that? And how can

35:38

people believe that? I don't know. Rape is

35:40

okay or whatever. And he

35:42

said, you know, guy, you're asking the wrong question. When

35:45

you ask people, why do

35:47

you believe that? Or what do you

35:49

believe? That's the wrong

35:51

question. All that is going to do is

35:53

lead to arguments. You know, this is why

35:56

I believe America is

35:58

not a racist country. And this

36:00

is what I believe it, but he said

36:02

the question to ask, a

36:04

very valuable lesson, one

36:07

that I don't always observe, I must

36:10

admit. The question to

36:12

ask is not what you believe or

36:14

why you believe vaccines don't work. The

36:17

question to ask is how did

36:19

you come to believe that? Because

36:23

that fosters empathy and understanding,

36:25

right? So how did you

36:27

come to believe that vaccines

36:30

are bad? And

36:32

maybe the answer is, well, my

36:34

grandfather was in this US Army

36:36

study and he was in

36:38

this study where he

36:40

got vaccinated or he had a

36:42

placebo. He actually got the disease

36:45

and died. And so I

36:47

have never trust vaccination because my

36:49

grandfather was in this experiment and

36:52

it led to his ill health and

36:54

death. That's

36:58

very good data to understand a person

37:00

as opposed to, you're such a dumb,

37:02

you don't believe in vaccinations. You want

37:04

to get COVID and die. Go ahead.

37:08

Right. I mean, completely different attitude.

37:11

You know, you write that if having growth mindset

37:13

were easy, we'd all just switch on because we've

37:16

all heard this before, guys. But

37:18

like anything, it isn't what you've heard. It's what

37:20

you do. What are some

37:22

of the ways that we can work on getting

37:24

a better growth mindset? What are some of those things

37:27

we can do such as what you just suggested where

37:29

we lead with empathy when we question versus how could

37:31

you be such a dumbass? Well,

37:36

first of all, I mean, I don't

37:38

expect you to read my book or

37:40

any book and say, oh, yeah, he's

37:42

right. I believe you

37:44

should approach everything with skepticism,

37:46

especially today. So

37:48

with the growth mindset, first

37:51

of all, being aware that, huh, maybe

37:54

I can grow. And

37:56

then it's a matter of finding

37:59

people. around you who

38:01

support growth. Finding people around

38:03

you who are suggesting that yes

38:05

you know try these different things

38:08

don't worry about failure. Failure is

38:10

a form of learning. So you

38:12

need to find supportive people. If

38:14

you're surrounded by people who say

38:16

oh you're only good at

38:19

this or all you're ever gonna

38:21

be is a you know I

38:23

don't know part-time barista. If you

38:25

have if you're surrounded by negativity

38:27

like that you're not gonna get

38:29

the growth mindset. You need to

38:31

find people who have grown and will support

38:33

you and then I suggest

38:36

taking baby steps to

38:39

use a surfing analogy. If

38:41

you're a world-class physicist or violin player

38:43

now you say okay a guy I

38:45

believe in a growth set I've always

38:47

wanted to take up surfing I'm

38:50

gonna grow I'm gonna try surfing. Well

38:52

the baby step is to get like

38:55

a really long board go to a

38:57

place with one to two foot waves

38:59

and get an instructor. That's

39:01

the baby step that's how you grow into

39:04

surfing. I am NOT suggesting

39:06

that you go to Nazare in Portugal

39:08

and you take your board out and

39:10

you go into a hundred foot wave

39:12

because guy said I have the growth

39:14

mindset I'm gonna learn how to surf

39:16

Nazare 100 foot wave come

39:18

on down baby. Guys like I'm not covering your

39:20

medical bills. You

39:23

gotta sign a disclaimer when you buy this. But

39:27

I love this because instead of trying to get all

39:29

big and I think we all get freaked out by

39:31

these big huge changes looking into

39:34

the abyss that's of the future what can I

39:36

be I love this baby step idea because it

39:38

doesn't have to be big things. Case

39:40

in point one thing I love that you

39:42

wrote was that you say study subjects you've

39:44

never considered or that you failed

39:47

at explore areas you've kept putting off because

39:49

you didn't think you'd excel at them and

39:51

adopt the interest of family friends and followers

39:54

you did this yourself you brought

39:56

up surfing who in your family brought up surfing and

39:58

did you ever think By the way,

40:00

you're from Hawaii. Why the hell haven't

40:02

you been a surfer your entire life,

40:04

Guy? What's going on? Okay, there's

40:07

a good answer to that question. I'm

40:09

from Hawaii. You would think

40:11

that I would have learned how to

40:13

surf. Yes, correct. Well, when

40:16

I was a kid, I did not

40:18

have the growth mindset. I

40:20

had the Asian American mindset of

40:23

you gotta study hard. You need

40:25

to get 800s on your

40:27

SATs, 4.0 GPA, and

40:29

you need to get into a great

40:32

college, right? And so surfing when I

40:34

was growing up, that's for

40:36

the kids who are like not

40:38

doing well in school, screwing off,

40:40

taking drugs and all that. But

40:42

I wanted to be a good

40:44

Asian. And I

40:46

didn't want to like go beyond that. I

40:49

did not have the growth mindset to say,

40:52

you're in seventh grade, you've never surfed

40:54

in your life. You should try this.

40:56

It was, you're in seventh grade, you're

40:58

doing well in this college prep school.

41:01

You don't want to make an ass

41:03

of yourself going out there surfing with

41:05

all these delinquents. Now,

41:07

there's many things to unpack about this.

41:11

I have to say that I took up surfing

41:13

at the age of 60. So

41:16

if there's no greater proof of the

41:18

growth mindset than being willing to make

41:20

an ass of yourself and learn surfing

41:22

at 60, I don't know what it

41:24

is. But I will tell you one

41:27

unanticipated benefit is

41:29

that if I had taken up surfing as a kid,

41:32

I love surfing so much, I

41:35

don't think I would have accomplished as much

41:37

in my career because I would

41:39

just be surfing every day. So

41:44

there's a silver lining to everything.

41:47

One of your kids introduced you to hockey as well

41:49

too. And I don't think, by the way, while I

41:51

do think surfing and Hawaii, I've never

41:54

once thought hockey in Hawaii, just to

41:56

be clear. Oh well, yeah. The

41:58

closest thing to pond. hockey in

42:00

Hawaii is eating shave ice

42:03

but I digress. So

42:05

this is another great story. So

42:08

my wife and I take our two boys

42:10

8 and 10 to a Sharks game and

42:13

they love hockey. Where are you from?

42:15

I'm from Detroit. I'm a red-wing man.

42:17

Okay. So you understand hockey.

42:19

Oh yeah. You understand red-wing hockey.

42:21

So we go to this

42:23

hockey game and my kids fall in

42:25

love with hockey. Now for people who are not

42:28

familiar with hockey. Hockey is the

42:30

greatest team sport there is. No

42:33

question. Hockey is a combination

42:36

of war and

42:38

ballet and physics. Unlike

42:41

other sports where the ball goes

42:43

out of bounds and there's all

42:45

these timeouts and stuff. Hockey is

42:47

non-stop action. That puck hardly ever

42:50

goes out of bounds or you

42:52

know there's and it's certainly

42:54

not soccer where every 60 seconds somebody's

42:56

flopping on the ground as if he

42:59

broke his leg and then 60 seconds

43:01

later he's back running around. Like if

43:04

you did that in the NHL you would be

43:06

last out of hockey right? So it's none of

43:08

that bullsh**. And

43:10

my kids say, oh dad we want to

43:12

try hockey. Now as Silicon Valley

43:15

parents you know you can never say no

43:17

to your precious little jewels. So

43:19

we find them a hockey class and

43:21

then my wife says to me, God bless her.

43:24

She says, you know I don't want you to

43:26

be like other Silicon Valley husbands. I don't want

43:28

you coming to their games and you're on your

43:30

blackberry and every once in a while you look

43:32

up to see when your kid is on the

43:34

ice on his shift. I want you involved with

43:36

their lives. So maybe you should

43:39

take up hockey too. Good for

43:41

her. And I'm a wise man so I listen

43:43

to my wife and we knew

43:46

so little about hockey. We get skates and

43:48

we didn't know you had to have them

43:50

sharpened before you go on. You know when

43:52

you buy basketball shoes you don't

43:57

have them sharpened before you spend basketball. them

44:00

up and go. So anyway,

44:03

one of the first times I tried hockey

44:05

was this kids parents game and

44:07

Scott McNeely, the founder of

44:09

Sun Microsystems is on the

44:11

team of parents. He's

44:13

an excellent hockey player. Wait a minute, wait

44:15

a minute. It helps when you're Scott McNeely.

44:18

I was gonna say guy, is he excellent

44:20

because he's really good at hockey or is

44:22

he excellent because nobody wants to hit him

44:24

and everybody wants to let him score. It's

44:27

like playing with hockey with Putin. I'm

44:30

thinking if I'm a Sun Microsystems supplier,

44:33

I'm letting that guy go. He's

44:35

gonna score no matter what. But

44:37

anyway, you know it helps if

44:39

you're Scott McNeely and you love hockey and

44:42

you're so rich that you build an ice

44:44

rink at their house. Yeah. Literally he did.

44:46

That's a flex. So anyway, I step on

44:48

the ice. I can't skate for sh** because

44:51

guess what? I cannot surf, I cannot skate

44:53

but I can take

44:55

SATs. Anyway, so I step

44:57

on the ice and it was a

45:00

religious experience. I said, oh my god,

45:02

this is just so great and

45:05

I think we're

45:07

going all over the map but that's what happens when

45:09

you have me as a guest. You

45:11

know people say I'm spending a lot

45:14

of time searching for my passion, my

45:16

calling in life, you know and

45:18

it should be the intersection of what

45:20

I'm good at, what I like to

45:22

do and what I can make money

45:24

at, right? I mean that's

45:26

the perfect Venn diagram. So

45:28

you draw these circles. I'm good at this

45:31

stuff, I love doing this stuff

45:33

and I can make money at this stuff

45:36

and where the intersection is, that's what you should do.

45:38

I have a completely different

45:40

theory. When you find

45:42

something that you like to do and

45:45

you're not good at and you cannot

45:47

make money but you still do it, that's

45:50

when you found your passion. What

45:54

about people, you know we have stackers,

45:56

guys that are in their late

45:58

30s, 40s. even

46:01

50s, going, well, you know what, this pivot

46:03

that it would take, I found my passion, but I

46:06

think I'm too late. What

46:08

do you say to those people? I'm

46:10

saying being

46:12

too late is a

46:14

mental concept. Listen,

46:19

at 44, I took up hockey. At

46:21

60, I took up surfing. At

46:24

65, I took up podcasting. You're

46:27

not too late for anything. In

46:30

a sense, you need to get over yourself. To

46:32

be remarkable, you need to get over yourself. I

46:36

hate to make this whole interview about surfing,

46:38

but it's just a good

46:40

metaphor for life. When

46:42

you start surfing, you think, oh,

46:46

people on the shore, because there's

46:48

always people watching people surf,

46:50

right? People on the shore, they're

46:53

going to see me. They're going to see

46:55

me not get up. They're going to see me fall. They're

46:57

going to see me make an ass of myself. When

47:00

I get out of the water, they're going to all

47:02

come up to me and say, guy, you're such a

47:04

loser. You cannot surf. You're

47:06

afraid of this potential embarrassment. I

47:09

think a lot of people, they don't

47:12

try to learn a new musical instrument.

47:14

They don't try a new job. They

47:16

don't try a new sport, because they

47:18

fear embarrassment. What I

47:20

learned at surfing is, hey, nobody

47:24

cares. Nobody

47:27

cares. Probably they didn't see you

47:30

fall. And even if they

47:32

see you fall, they think nothing of it.

47:35

So I've never come out on the water, and

47:37

people run up to me and say, guy, I

47:39

saw you fall five times in a row. You're

47:41

a loser. You should give up surfing. That just

47:44

never happens. So get over yourself. It's not going

47:46

to happen. So with the growth

47:48

mindset, you push past that, and you

47:50

try stuff. Nobody's going to condemn you

47:52

for being a lousy piano player if

47:54

you started piano at More

47:58

power to you. You try something. that late.

48:01

I'm actually the opposite. I see people at 65

48:03

trying to be a piano player and I'm like

48:05

what a badass. Exactly. Well this

48:07

is how hard the growth mindset is, guy,

48:09

because you never see it. You never

48:11

see people do that. When I do, I

48:13

think it's so refreshing. I

48:15

want to push past because you

48:17

have three main areas in this

48:19

work, growth, grit and grace.

48:22

You have one point in grace, which

48:25

is to take the high road. And

48:27

I feel like over the past 15 years,

48:29

social media takes over more and more of

48:31

our lives. I see people take the high

48:33

road less and less and less. It

48:35

seems harder, guy, than ever to take the

48:38

high road. Well,

48:41

let's just say there's never traffic on

48:43

the high road. It's

48:47

like one big carpool lane. But does

48:49

anybody notice anymore when you take the

48:51

high road? I think because

48:53

so few people take the high road,

48:56

it's actually maybe more noticeable, right? I

48:58

mean you stand out. So

49:00

listen, I think roughly the sequence

49:02

of making a difference and becoming

49:05

remarkable is first you have to

49:07

have a growth mindset, then

49:09

you have to have a grit mindset

49:11

where you pay the price because being

49:13

remarkable is not going to be easy

49:15

or cheap. And

49:17

finally, you have to pay

49:20

back. That's grace. Now,

49:23

it was an act of God

49:25

to find three words that describe

49:27

those concepts that begin with GR,

49:30

grit, growth and grace. Like

49:33

right there, right there you should buy the

49:35

book. I'm laughing guys, a fellow author because

49:37

I'm with you. I'm like, wow, like you

49:39

tell her the universe, something

49:41

happened. Is that the

49:43

best alliteration? It's

49:47

like a Pulitzer Prize winning alliteration

49:49

right there, baby. The daytime Emmy

49:51

goes to Guy Calisach. So

49:54

as I look back on my career, the

49:56

first third I was underpaid. The

50:00

second third, I was overpaid.

50:03

And the third third, I believe I

50:05

should pay back. That's roughly

50:07

how my life has worked out. And

50:10

when I was in college, my father,

50:12

God bless him, he told me,

50:14

you know, son, we are

50:16

fortunate. Now we came from a lower middle-class

50:19

family. Don't get me wrong. It's not like

50:21

we were the Trumps, okay? But

50:23

he said, you know, we are lucky.

50:25

We are fortunate. And now you're going

50:27

to Stanford. You're extremely fortunate. So

50:30

I want to explain this concept called

50:32

Noblesse Oblige. And Noblesse

50:35

Oblige translates into kind of

50:37

the obligations of nobility. Now,

50:40

I happen to not like the

50:43

word nobility because it implies that, you

50:45

know, you've got to be Prince Harry

50:47

or King Charles or Meghan

50:49

Markle. You know, you got to be

50:51

one of the nobility. So

50:54

my term is success oblige,

50:56

which means that if you're

50:58

successful, you have a

51:01

moral obligation to help other people. Let's

51:03

face it. You were

51:06

quite fortunate to be successful. You

51:08

walked through a door and

51:10

you were successful. So

51:13

you have a moral obligation to not

51:15

just keep that door open, but if

51:17

you can, make the door even bigger

51:20

for other people because life

51:22

is not a zero sum game. Other

51:24

people's success is not

51:26

going to reduce your success. And

51:29

other people's failure is not going

51:31

to increase your success. The

51:34

rising tide floats all boats and

51:37

the sinking tide sinks

51:39

all boats. So get

51:41

over it and fulfill your

51:43

success oblige. The book

51:46

is think remarkable. What a remarkable last half

51:48

hour we've had together. Nine paths to transform

51:50

your life and make a difference. And Guy,

51:53

it's available everywhere. I hope.

51:56

If it's not, there's somebody who might be

51:58

getting the Steve Jobs. Treatment from you

52:01

suffer ssssss a guy Kawasaki Thanks

52:03

or mentoring us on growth grit

52:05

grace today. I super appreciate it.

52:07

Thank you! You know it's. It's

52:10

really a pleasure of sometimes be the

52:12

guess this set of the whole assess

52:14

assess. Hey

52:16

ah mister. While. And then Mrs. Wow from

52:18

waffles on Wednesday and we're not even waffles

52:21

were. Stalking Benjamin's. When.

52:23

I get to speak to people like Geico

52:26

a sucky while really oh gee and you

52:28

I discuss bumps. Yeah. Well have

52:30

that results for everybody. Yes,

52:32

Goosebumps everywhere, the shivers who typically for

52:35

getting out with you simply have for

52:37

all these shows. Hey time for one

52:39

stacker who thought you know what I'd

52:41

better call Saul he has and oh

52:43

gee this apart the show where we

52:46

answer illicit or question who's having an

52:48

issue with her money if you've got

52:50

a question you like oh gee and

52:52

I to answer had to step commitments.com/voicemail

52:54

and for being brave or a we

52:56

also throw in some swags that's not

52:59

the reason that you call you call

53:01

because you wanna be. As.

53:03

Cool as gear more. Figure.

53:05

Most. Are

53:08

your side. When he was demo I'm

53:10

hoping to retire or next few years

53:13

or so having some questions regarding a

53:15

backdrop for says a four o one

53:17

K ruff rollover also been could help

53:19

shed my of the differences. When

53:22

he says fast and if you some other

53:24

before the associated with his practice. Appreciate

53:27

it. Thank you become. Dear.

53:29

I'm of were big fan of yours man for call in

53:31

in. And. It is interested. Well, first

53:33

of all, maybe she did describe what is a

53:36

backdoor Roth For people that have no idea what

53:38

that is, them will talk about a four one

53:40

K to do so for one kid. Ross versus.

53:42

A. Backdoor Roth. Yeah. All

53:45

retirement accounts. Or. i should

53:47

say most retirement accounts have some sort

53:49

of income limit or restrictions associated with

53:51

them and so for roth iras if

53:54

you're married filing jointly and you earn

53:56

over two hundred eighteen thousand dollars of

53:58

money You can modify it at just

54:00

a gross income, which is found

54:02

nowhere on your taxes by the way, so you have to

54:04

calculate that. Let's say $200,000, $218,000, you can contribute to a Roth IRA.

54:09

This year the contribution limit is $7,000 per person.

54:12

So two people working, two people making

54:14

less than $200,000, both can put in $7,000

54:17

in a Roth, no

54:19

must, no fuss. Once you

54:21

get past $200,000, then you enter

54:23

this phase out range which says between this dollar and

54:25

this dollar amount, you can put some in but not

54:27

all of it. And so it's based on a percentage

54:30

of how much above the $218,000 number you are, reduces

54:34

that $7,000 number all the way

54:36

down to zero once

54:38

you get over $228,000. So

54:42

between $218,000, $228,000

54:44

for married filing joint, you

54:46

get a reduction after $228,000 of modified adjusted

54:49

gross income, then you can't contribute

54:51

to a Roth anymore. So

54:53

the question is, what if I still have my $7,000, what can I do?

54:56

Well one of the things that people talk about is doing a

54:59

backdoor Roth IRA, which is

55:01

just a fancy way of saying

55:03

it's a non-deductible IRA contribution. So

55:05

normally IRA contributions, you receive a

55:07

tax benefit for. But

55:10

because you make $200,000, in this case $228,000, you don't get a tax

55:12

deduction for that,

55:15

you make too much money. So the

55:17

IRS is not giving you a tax deduction,

55:19

so it's a non-deductible IRA contribution. And

55:22

then you do a Roth conversion. If

55:24

you do this in a relatively short period of

55:26

time, there's really not any taxes due, there might

55:28

be a little bit on the gain between how

55:30

much money you put in and how much you

55:32

do the conversion. So

55:34

there are a lot of rules around this in terms of

55:37

the balances of other IRAs and that sort of thing, but

55:39

broad brush stroke, if you're over $228,000 of income and you're

55:43

married and you want to

55:45

do a Roth, one of the only ways to do

55:47

that is to do a non-deductible contribution with

55:49

a conversion. So you have to do this extra step. The

55:52

other thing that you could do, if you're not

55:54

fully contributing money to your Roth 401K,

55:56

which I don't understand how people

55:58

don't, you know, everybody's I guess we're wrapped up

56:00

in doing backdoor Roth and meanwhile, they're doing 3%

56:02

in their 401k and we'll just put

56:05

that money in your Roth 401k. It's

56:07

the same outcome and it's much cleaner. So

56:10

much cleaner. So if you're not contributing the

56:12

maximum which this year to a 401k plan

56:14

is $23,000, if

56:17

you're over 50, you can do more. If you're

56:19

not doing 23,000 in your 401k and

56:22

you still have capacity in there and you want to

56:24

do a backdoor Roth, we'll just put some

56:26

money in your 401k that's Roth 401k and you

56:30

got some Roth money without all the paperwork

56:32

because there's definitely a mess of tax documents that you have

56:34

to get through. And I guess the downside there because Guillermo

56:36

is for downside. The downside would be, if you don't have

56:38

the cash flow to do that, if you don't have the

56:40

cash flow to do that, then you got to go with

56:43

the backdoor Roth but we're getting

56:45

in your reserve to pay

56:47

the tax. Yeah, well, I mean I'm

56:49

saying that it's the same outcome. If you don't have

56:52

the cash flow to do the Roth 401k, then you

56:54

don't have the cash flow to do the backdoor Roth

56:56

either. It's the same 7 grand. Unless

56:58

you're taking it from savings, in which case,

57:00

then just live off the savings, live off

57:02

the savings and take it out of your

57:04

paycheck. And again, it's still going to be

57:06

a heck of a lot cleaner than doing

57:09

an IRA contribution, filing a tax form, doing

57:11

a conversion, getting another tax form and

57:13

hoping all of this happens correctly that you don't

57:15

run a file of anything. So I

57:18

think the order of operations really needs to be

57:21

put your money in your 401k up to the

57:23

company match. And

57:25

if you still have the ability

57:27

to make contributions above that,

57:29

you have the cash flow to do that or you can structure

57:31

it in a sense between you and your partner to do that.

57:35

I don't know, especially if you have a Roth 401k option,

57:37

why you just wouldn't do that. I mean, there's some liquidity,

57:39

maybe you can't get to it. So

57:42

there's some of that. But if you're planning for

57:44

it for retirement purposes, it matters

57:46

not whether it's enough Roth IRA or

57:48

Roth 401k. Well,

57:50

the good news is I think Roth 401k

57:52

is not only cleaner and easier to do.

57:55

Tell me if I'm wrong, but really aren't

57:57

Roth 401k is a little bit less restrictive,

57:59

like Like as an example, Roth

58:01

401Ks don't have the income restriction. I mean, that's

58:03

number one. If you're eligible for it, you can

58:06

do it. Roth 401Ks

58:08

have the higher contribution limit, which

58:10

of course for the backdoor, not

58:12

really concerned with having the money

58:14

available, but they can also offer

58:16

the employer match. So you

58:18

could get employer match if you're missing out on that. In

58:21

a few ways, I feel like Roth 401Ks give

58:23

me a little bit more flexibility than a Roth

58:25

IRA gives me. Again, you need

58:28

to be up to 23,000 of contributions if you're

58:30

married, 46,000 of contributions before

58:35

you really need to go back to the

58:38

backdoor IRA, if that's what you're looking at.

58:41

And a lot of companies allow

58:43

you to do after-tax 401K contributions

58:45

as well, which is like people

58:48

call it the mega backdoor Roth. So in

58:50

theory, let's say that you're like, well, but I've

58:53

got 50 grand I want to save and I'm

58:55

married, you and your spouse could both do 46,000

58:57

and put another 4,000 of after-tax in

59:00

your 401K and have it all

59:02

come out of your payroll. It's just

59:04

simple. You don't have to do any extra tax filings or forms

59:06

or any of that stuff. It's just done. But

59:09

sometimes you even have more money than that or you're

59:11

single or the plan options are

59:13

awful or you don't have retirement. Some people

59:15

don't even have retirement plan options, in which case you

59:18

could do the non-deductible IRA contribution and

59:20

a conversion is just going to take a little bit. Now

59:22

what he was also talking about here was, well,

59:25

how do I get money out of my 401K

59:27

and do conversions to a Roth? And that's a

59:29

completely separate thing because when you

59:31

do the non-deductible IRA contributions followed

59:34

by a conversion, you'll pay taxes if there's

59:36

any gains on that $7,000. So

59:38

let's say that January 1st, you put in seven

59:40

grand in your IRA and

59:43

on August 1st, you convert it to

59:45

a Roth. During that

59:47

period of time, that $7,000 has done whatever it's

59:49

done in terms of your investment choices and

59:51

maybe it's now worth $8,000. Well,

59:54

when you convert the $8,000, you'll pay taxes

59:56

on the $1,000, but now it's tax-free

1:00:01

However, in your 401k, when you

1:00:03

go to take money out of your 401k,

1:00:05

all of that money is likely to be

1:00:07

pre-tax. If you

1:00:09

said, well, I'm going to take $50,000 out of

1:00:11

my 401k and do a conversion to a Roth,

1:00:15

all 50,000 of that is taxable. In which

1:00:17

case, now it's a much higher tax bill than just

1:00:19

that little bit would be on the

1:00:21

non-deductible one. So those are two completely

1:00:23

separate things and separate strategies around

1:00:26

building up the tax-free bucket

1:00:28

versus converting money once

1:00:31

it's already in the tax-deferred bucket. This is going

1:00:33

to be around tax optimization

1:00:35

and it's... I

1:00:37

know we say this is the disclaimer at the end, but I feel...

1:00:39

Walking in circles. I feel like after that,

1:00:41

we need to say, consult your

1:00:44

advisors. This is for entertainment

1:00:46

purposes only. You really want to make

1:00:48

sure that whichever way you go goes with your

1:00:50

overall strategy. And really what's funny about this is

1:00:52

people ask me this all the time. Hey, so

1:00:55

what do you think? How should I contribute into

1:00:57

my 401k, pre-tax or Roth? And my answer is

1:00:59

always the same. I don't know.

1:01:02

And everybody looks at me like I have three heads. What

1:01:05

do you mean you don't know? Shouldn't you know?

1:01:07

Aren't you the guy? Dance money guy. Yeah, dance

1:01:09

clown. I

1:01:12

mean, the reality is what info do

1:01:14

you need with that to be able to

1:01:16

make that a perfect decision? The info

1:01:18

is you need to know what tax rates are in the future. And

1:01:21

we don't know. I mean, you can

1:01:23

guess. You can look at the tea

1:01:25

leaves and go, I don't think they're going down. That's

1:01:28

Ed Slott's perspective. He's America's IRA

1:01:30

expert. All the great knowledge

1:01:32

that he has. He's

1:01:34

on the side of the fence of just get

1:01:37

it in the tax-free bucket, pay the taxes today.

1:01:39

It's a known outcome and it's tax-free forever for

1:01:41

everyone, which I happen to

1:01:43

largely agree with. But in terms of

1:01:45

like, well, should I do 41% in pre-tax and 19% in... I

1:01:50

don't know. We're just guessing on what tax rates are

1:01:52

going to be in the future and what you're going

1:01:54

to need in the future and when you're going to need it. I

1:01:57

think the right approach is to have a whole bunch of money and

1:01:59

a whole bunch of places. So anytime

1:02:01

there's a new tax law or anytime there's

1:02:03

a new Congress involved and

1:02:05

they shut down this income stream that

1:02:08

makes sense but make this one better,

1:02:10

you have an opportunity to make

1:02:13

a decision and be flexible as you

1:02:15

need capital throughout your life when those big

1:02:17

money things come up. So

1:02:19

if you've got all of your money and you're 401k and it's

1:02:21

all pre-tax and you got $2 million, I mean that's pretty good.

1:02:25

But it's all pre-tax and you're now in

1:02:27

one silo. I would much rather

1:02:29

have $750k

1:02:31

in three different buckets even if it's not perfectly

1:02:33

tax optimized going in because in the back end

1:02:35

I'll be able to decide year to year how

1:02:37

I'm going to spend that. Optimize the hell out

1:02:39

of it on the back end. Well, I mean

1:02:41

you have a great example

1:02:43

of this. We were talking with somebody the

1:02:45

other day who's thinking about retiring and we

1:02:47

were talking about Medicare expenses or I'm sorry,

1:02:49

healthcare expenses prior to retirement and the

1:02:52

Affordable Care Act and how that's all income

1:02:54

driven. It's largely driven by how much money

1:02:56

you have. Well, guess what? If all of

1:02:58

your money is pre-tax and you're going

1:03:00

to live on that for the first 10 years of retirement,

1:03:02

well, now

1:03:05

you have taxable income on your tax form versus having a brokerage account

1:03:07

where you can live on some of it and fill that up exactly

1:03:09

where you are. You

1:03:12

have to do exactly perfectly to get a tax break on your healthcare

1:03:14

premiums. So having the flexibility there I think

1:03:16

is better on the back end than it is on the

1:03:18

front end, frankly. Thanks for the

1:03:20

question, Guillermo. Glad that you called. If you've

1:03:22

got a question for us, head to stackinbenchments.com/voicemail.

1:03:25

By the way, if you don't have

1:03:27

a question just about backdoor Roth versus

1:03:30

contributing to a Roth 401k, you've got

1:03:32

bigger questions like what is

1:03:34

my overall strategy and where does this all fit in?

1:03:38

So if OG and this team are taking clients,

1:03:40

so head to stackinbenchments.com/OG. That's the link

1:03:42

to their calendar and the first step on seeing how

1:03:44

they can interface with you to help you make better

1:03:46

decisions for the rest of 2024 and beyond. Hey,

1:03:51

time to wander out to the back porch and today we're going

1:03:53

to keep it fairly quick. But OG, I

1:03:55

just found out two

1:03:58

days ago that I am a lawyer. going

1:04:00

to be doing a little

1:04:02

bit of a meetup tour. So I'm

1:04:04

super excited about this. I

1:04:07

can announce a few dates today and

1:04:10

these are all subject to

1:04:12

change but on May

1:04:15

14th... See

1:04:19

there it is. I'm just kidding. Let me look

1:04:21

at the calendar here. Hold on, hold on, hold

1:04:23

on. May the 14th. Alright,

1:04:25

where are we headed? Me, maybe,

1:04:27

OG and possibly Doug

1:04:29

are gonna be in Cleveland, Ohio.

1:04:32

Cleveland, Ohio. Definitely busy.

1:04:34

And then on the

1:04:38

16th and we're seeing exactly where we're gonna be

1:04:40

in each of these cities but

1:04:42

on the 16th we'll be having a

1:04:44

meetup back in the old stomping grounds

1:04:46

of Detroit, Michigan, May 16th.

1:04:49

I'm a for sure maybe. And then

1:04:52

May 17th, again hard to find

1:04:54

a spot for a meetup on a Friday night but I

1:04:56

think we'll get it done. We'll be in

1:04:58

my old, old hometown of

1:05:00

Kalamazoo, Michigan for a meetup.

1:05:02

So Cleveland, Detroit. Should

1:05:04

be easy right around college graduation

1:05:07

weekends and high school graduation weekends

1:05:09

to find an open bar where

1:05:11

there won't be any people there

1:05:13

in Kalamazoo. That'll be easy. It's actually funny,

1:05:16

OG, because guess why I'm gonna be in both of those

1:05:18

towns? College and

1:05:20

high school graduations. And so while

1:05:22

I'm there, why not come see people?

1:05:24

And I know it's been quite a while since

1:05:27

we've done a meetup in Cleveland. I

1:05:29

know I went to a meetup with Andy Hill a couple

1:05:31

of years ago in Detroit but it's been a couple of

1:05:33

years and Kalamazoo, not since the

1:05:35

book tour, that was the only time we

1:05:37

did a meetup in Kalamazoo but it certainly

1:05:40

was fun. Also I can announce

1:05:42

that on Thursday, May

1:05:44

23rd, we will be doing

1:05:46

a meetup in Boston. So

1:05:49

Boston, Massachusetts.

1:05:52

We're coming for you. OG, you're

1:05:54

welcome to attend that one as well. That

1:05:56

is quite literally my kid's last day of

1:05:58

school. Sadly that

1:06:00

one I definitely am a for sure

1:06:02

maybe so Boston you're stuck with me

1:06:05

It sounds like maybe but

1:06:07

anyway if you get the 201 day of school,

1:06:10

I'll be definitely in Boston Which

1:06:14

he's like and I'm in and that what I'm going to

1:06:16

let me think through that even if I'm not going I'm

1:06:18

going but those are a few Seattle

1:06:20

I hope to make it out there later on this

1:06:22

summer We have some plans to

1:06:25

get an outside thing and also our meetups

1:06:27

in Minneapolis Which are every

1:06:29

month our meetup in August? Which

1:06:31

is usually the third week

1:06:34

of each month is actually going to

1:06:36

be the fourth week And I believe

1:06:38

it's going to be August 29th. We

1:06:41

are going to be having our regular Minneapolis

1:06:43

meetup. I will be there. My

1:06:45

son Nick is going to be there and OG,

1:06:48

maybe you can come to Minneapolis to the Twin

1:06:50

Cities to do that meetup as

1:06:52

well. Yeah, sure We're on the

1:06:54

move guys trying to see as many

1:06:56

of our stackers across the nation as we possibly

1:06:58

can I Think that's it.

1:07:01

Unless you got something else. I'm good, man. Yeah,

1:07:03

let's do this All right, Doug Doug's been outside

1:07:05

still working on that project for mom all day.

1:07:07

You've been quiet all day, man So, uh, what's

1:07:10

uh, what's on our to-do list? We got a lot

1:07:13

So what's stacked up on our

1:07:15

to-do list today first take some

1:07:17

advice from Guy Kawasaki and think

1:07:20

Remarkable. What can you do today

1:07:22

that leads to remarkable results tomorrow?

1:07:25

You know what it is carve out

1:07:27

time for yourself versus doing what everyone

1:07:30

else is demanding your future self will

1:07:32

say Thank you in a big way

1:07:35

Second that new FinTech ask

1:07:38

is this the best way to get this

1:07:40

done or am I just falling for the

1:07:42

next next thing? Don't let

1:07:44

your phone dictate who you trust and

1:07:47

your next financial moves What's

1:07:50

the biggest to do? I? Gotta

1:07:52

put my boxing gloves up on eBay who

1:07:54

knew there was such a high demand for

1:07:56

used ones Thank

1:07:59

you Thanks to Guy Kawasaki for joining

1:08:01

us today. You can find his

1:08:04

book, Remarkable, wherever books are sold.

1:08:06

Also, you can listen to his podcast,

1:08:08

Remarkable People, wherever you're listening to me

1:08:11

right now. We'll also

1:08:13

include links in our show notes

1:08:15

at stackingbenjamins.com. This

1:08:18

show is the property of

1:08:20

SP Podcast LLC copyright 2024

1:08:22

and is created by Joe

1:08:24

Salsihi. Our producer is

1:08:26

Karen Repine. This show is

1:08:28

written by Lisa Curry, who's also

1:08:30

the host of the Long Story

1:08:32

Long Podcast with help from me,

1:08:34

Joe, Kate Yelkin, Karen Repine, and

1:08:36

Doc Gee from the Earn and

1:08:38

Invest Podcast. Kevin Bailey helps

1:08:40

us take a deeper dive into all the

1:08:42

topics covered on each episode in our newsletter

1:08:45

called The 201. You'll

1:08:47

find the 411 on all things money at

1:08:49

The 201. Just

1:08:52

visit stackingbenjamins.com/201. Wonder

1:08:56

how beautiful we all are? Of

1:08:58

course you do, but you'll never know

1:09:00

if you don't check out our YouTube

1:09:03

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1:09:05

Eichenberg. Then you'll see once

1:09:07

and for all that I'm the best thing

1:09:09

going for this podcast. Once

1:09:11

we bottle up all this goodness, we

1:09:14

ship it to our engineer, the amazing

1:09:16

Steve Stewart. Steve helps the rest of

1:09:18

our team sound nearly as good as

1:09:20

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1:09:23

to chat with friends about the show later? StackingBenjamins.com's

1:09:25

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1:09:28

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1:09:30

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1:09:34

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1:09:36

hello when you see us posting

1:09:38

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1:09:41

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1:09:43

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1:09:45

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1:09:47

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1:09:49

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1:09:51

and Joe host those weekly.

1:09:54

Not only should you not take advice

1:09:56

from these nerds, don't take advice from

1:09:58

people you don't know. This show is

1:10:00

for entertainment purposes only. Before making

1:10:03

any financial decisions, speak with a

1:10:05

real financial advisor. I'm

1:10:08

Joe's mom's neighbor Doug, and we'll see

1:10:10

you next time back here at the

1:10:12

Stacking Benjamin Show. Well,

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