0:08

hello and welcome to the stand with eamon

0:10

dunphy now

0:12

on december 23rd 1996

0:16

body was

0:18

found in west cork

0:20

it was the body of sophie toscan

0:22

du plans to a a woman

0:25

who had a holiday home

0:27

in a remote part of west

0:29

cork she

0:30

had been the victim a

0:33

brutal attacking and

0:35

it was the following

0:37

morning at ten am fine

0:39

her body was first hand she

0:41

had been badly beaten there

0:44

this crime has never been

0:46

solved and it has been

0:48

one of the most notorious

0:51

crimes and intriguing in

0:53

many ways that we seen ever

0:56

in this country there have been a number

0:58

of documentaries made about

1:01

it i'm a successful podcast

1:03

to sheridan former oscar

1:05

nominated that the made

1:08

his own documentary

1:10

it's have is no committee about it adds

1:13

our guests this morning the

1:15

clever special correspondent of the

1:17

ice exam this went to

1:19

paris in twenty nineteen

1:22

where in bailey a freelance

1:24

journalist from add

1:27

the area in west coast

1:29

the center

1:30

twenty five years in prison the

1:32

he was sentenced in absentia

1:35

because the iris authorities

1:37

would not to lighting to

1:39

france and on legal

1:42

advice makes went to that file

1:44

which was i think we'll find

1:46

out i'm a bit of a farce

1:48

and make choices now makes are you very much

1:50

for joining us because it

1:53

was announced this weekend the

1:55

guy the are going to do

1:58

was called a cold case the review

2:01

all of this west cork murder which

2:03

means they're on the recommendation

2:07

said john oh driscoll the

2:09

assistant commissioner who is retiring

2:12

he is the person most responsible

2:14

for setting organized fine successfully

2:18

cab they can and cartel

2:20

analyst recipe is returning

2:23

when you made one recommendation

2:25

before he retired he suggests the

2:27

cold case seen be assigned to

2:30

identify lines of inquiry

2:32

that may have been missed by the

2:34

original teens makes this makes

2:37

this lingering notoriety

2:39

if you like for sitting around and

2:42

bailey the who is

2:44

a former journalist there

2:47

will com the him it's

2:49

own solve and

2:51

let's just start with the trial

2:54

in our sincere the to

2:56

attended in paris where family

2:58

was sentenced to twenty five years in

3:01

prison now is a highly unsatisfactory

3:04

events was nice yes ,

3:06

that's very fair to say i mean you

3:08

know there has been or to my causes

3:11

the station perhaps swirling

3:14

around in the early or there certainly

3:16

was certainly the early days he was days risk

3:18

was i'm in january

3:20

early january and ninety

3:23

and ninety some weeks ask

3:25

mister bryant his body was found

3:27

and he quickly i think i don't

3:29

know exactly who's responsibility quickly became

3:32

a didn't to fight as the chief suspect following

3:34

that a risk and i think that the morning

3:36

after his release he actually i

3:38

was under radio identifying the such

3:40

as he got on the program path can use have

3:42

on rt woods so

3:44

i mean from then on there was no there

3:47

was a numbers developments then over the years

3:50

that suggested that the

3:52

investigation that

3:54

effectively then to fight him as the to suspect

3:57

was highly flawed am and

3:59

we can do the very suspect that including

4:01

a very crucial an analysis

4:03

by some need to cpp sauce and two thousand

4:06

and once notwithstanding das

4:08

because the dpp in this country

4:10

had decided on more than one occasion

4:13

that the evidence was not there to prosecute

4:15

and investigation was opened my

4:17

the french under an ancient napot napoleonic

4:20

law that they could investigate at

4:22

the death of a faces and abroad the culmination

4:25

of all of us was as you said

4:28

a trial in two thousand and nineteen in

4:30

hours and i tend to their language

4:33

is your orders irish journalists and i think

4:35

as you said am and at there was

4:37

something i'd like to know hundred

4:39

stairs called farcical but it was certainly

4:41

highly on satisfactory

4:44

plus we had was ah

4:47

evidence that was second hand

4:50

that was what would be considered hearsay

4:52

year in this country and various

4:56

i'm closings drawn and that

4:58

type thing and my eyes

5:01

at the time it appeared more

5:03

like what you might cause a conservatory

5:05

hearing on gills rather than

5:08

the trial to see hundred the evidence

5:10

pointed towards the guilt of

5:12

an individual following that as you say

5:14

it's it's adults conducted by the way over the course

5:16

of four days there was a

5:18

i'm a verdict then

5:20

after to three judges considered

5:22

as far a number of hours and

5:24

then and down to twenty five year sentence

5:27

since then there was an attempt on

5:29

the basis of that verdict by the

5:31

french to have makes to date a tough way to is the

5:33

third time's the attempted of mixer dated

5:36

august in two thousand and nineteen

5:38

and dislocations they they had a

5:40

be considered a guilty verdict in a murder

5:42

trial the high court's he rejected

5:44

that once more yeah

5:47

i saw that was the culmination of that process

5:49

now there were some reasons why

5:51

daily was a a suspect in

5:54

the first instance one of them was

5:56

from a woman she

5:58

was she older small shop in

6:01

as go is he

6:03

had been having an affair and i

6:05

city and she was in this remote air

6:08

yeah where it is murdered so safe

6:11

and she identified daily

6:13

she subsequently changed her mind

6:15

on that's to was also questions about

6:17

the behavior of the police

6:20

frank for summer is a

6:22

very good solicitor in

6:25

the area and he has defended

6:28

daily but there were other things

6:30

for example it was scratches

6:33

on his hands and his face

6:35

which he said he got some flocking the

6:37

turkey and putting up a christmas tree

6:40

but the key those

6:43

weakness was jewels thomas who

6:46

is now famous former

6:48

girlfriend they were in a long term relationship

6:51

they were partners and see guys

6:54

in daily an alibi for the nice

6:56

now the way this was

6:58

presented in a sunday

7:01

times a week and the headline was

7:03

bally's x to age

7:05

cold case review of west cork

7:07

murder the emperor is

7:09

being said she was have going to

7:11

give evidence new evidence the

7:15

circumstantial matters

7:18

are sources the gay bisexual

7:20

things that happen such as bailey going

7:23

into the police station offering

7:25

his blood and offering to

7:27

do a dna test at the time

7:30

yeah and i knew i think it's also fair

7:32

say that you know there's

7:35

a number of reasons why does call guess for

7:37

he was being conducted including contact

7:39

from this to plant the as soon as

7:42

i am here louis

7:44

ah who was looking for a

7:46

fortune this to get under bases as your to extradite

7:49

him but it's also to kiss to the in really

7:51

has written thursday garda

7:53

commissioner asking for a new investigation

7:56

on the basis he sees as that he wants

7:58

to clear his name it

8:00

should be seen as you said am any

8:03

evidence that there was against

8:05

them we must always remember to dpp

8:08

has decided on a number of occasions

8:10

or whatever the answer was it did not come

8:12

anywhere near a threshold to bring charges

8:15

but any such evidence that might

8:17

have been suggested that he was involved was

8:19

entirely circumstances

8:22

there was absolutely no forensic

8:25

evidence that affect an odd that

8:27

circumstantial evidence without

8:30

one elements i'd suggest that it would

8:32

be entirely flimsy altogether

8:34

and that element is the evidence

8:36

of the woman you mentioned maria

8:39

foreign vs and initially

8:41

see claimed that on the night

8:44

of the murder at a place called keys had a bridge

8:47

which is about a mile and a half i think

8:49

from or miss to plant is holiday home

8:51

was and pretty

8:53

, say i would last two years ago

8:55

i followed the trailer on says pretty much the same

8:58

wearing barely was living at the time but

9:00

she claims initially of other

9:02

night in question she's on individual there

9:05

who matched in belize description

9:07

as soon the morning as you said there are

9:09

circumstances where i think she said she

9:11

she was meeting a man as they say

9:13

in in in some parents who was

9:15

not her husband and

9:18

and acted that that was one of the reasons she didn't

9:20

want to come forward know even

9:22

within das there were issues because initially

9:25

she describes because man as he goes about five

9:28

foot nine or ten and

9:30

subsequently to school because mr bailey

9:32

happens to be six for to and despite

9:34

also the long black course and hot have yes

9:37

and that seems

9:40

to have been a catalyst for the guards

9:42

he he has anger the severely

9:44

know move forward two

9:47

thousand and two as a libel action

9:49

by taken by the severely gets hit newspapers

9:52

and car circuit courts dash was

9:54

so mixed that was explosive evidence

9:56

in das from very

9:58

far and others that

10:01

albeit this is a civil course

10:03

course there's exclusive evidence

10:05

that out what you might say who

10:07

cooks could be considered as

10:09

having yeah in part of the case the

10:11

could have been raised

10:14

against disappeared but hard evidence is crucial

10:16

that to repeat his passing of

10:19

seeing the person she suspected was

10:21

mr bailey within a

10:23

couple years she had completely

10:26

changed or evidence now you

10:28

says it she says that she had been

10:30

pressured by the guards yeah

10:32

that that that that was or change of our

10:35

mind know take into account

10:37

she , of our own free will and in some

10:39

detail give evidence on the roof for

10:42

different effects and know she was saying that that evidence

10:44

was effectively a pact allies and

10:47

still immediacy an issue arises

10:50

lot of credibility know she is

10:52

also in the frame

10:54

ah in the currents them

10:58

laos as you might have is in dass

11:01

sie following the to documentaries

11:03

we had recently sees reportedly come

11:05

forward and know states does

11:07

she did see an individual accused that

11:10

a bridge with the description know

11:12

matches somebody

11:14

whom she says may be associated

11:17

with mister plant is less husband

11:19

he are at least be out from

11:21

from france and some capacity or other

11:24

so you , know you have

11:26

to say by any standards on

11:29

the basis of our various

11:31

declarations that miss our

11:33

whatever else would message me be perfectly

11:35

of sending individuals or said that

11:37

the credibility of hard evidence

11:40

on the basis of various positions he's

11:42

taken is , is

11:44

is is is that pretty good by any standards

11:48

now make one of the turning

11:50

points in all of this this

11:52

tree was the libel hey

11:55

who's that's and finally took

11:58

against the eight newspapers the

12:00

last and

12:03

that was almost taken as

12:05

being killed by failure to prove

12:08

live than a big committed against him

12:11

it was certainly a setback am

12:13

we must a mammogram by twenty five twenty

12:15

six years here so he

12:17

is an odd but they but they

12:20

you have you interviewed him must have

12:22

i'm a number times yeah i'm a

12:24

i'm when i say he's a nod buds

12:26

everyone's inside the to be a sensation

12:29

the certain time way but

12:31

you could argue that sang

12:33

thought about his solicitor saved him

12:36

from himself it loosely said

12:38

though he did turn up abandon

12:41

garda station when he was first

12:43

mentioned in relation to this and

12:46

he gave a single prince he had

12:48

a dna test and

12:50

there was there is there was no run

12:53

the gamut is that would convict him

12:55

but then again wanted a key pieces

12:57

of evidence is that

12:59

miss the county was

13:02

murder when a concrete

13:04

block was dropped on her ahead

13:07

that concrete block is still

13:10

in russian of say

13:12

on garza corner and

13:14

may well be a factor now in

13:16

terms of dna or whatever

13:19

yeah this duffy some that am and episodes

13:21

of he said this the after

13:24

this you you mentioned that under circumstances

13:26

a poor woman says i mean he kinda

13:28

trial kinda paris

13:30

the

13:31

they did they put on the screen are under

13:33

screen there in the courtroom photographs

13:36

of the scene and of mr

13:38

plenty of by the know these that kind

13:40

of photographs that normally in a murder trial

13:42

in this country of the as many it owes you

13:44

know the public don't see their just handed over

13:47

to the jury but i have to say

13:49

it was chilling shocking

13:52

that the size of the

13:54

woman's body and the condition

13:58

whomever sources are and laughter

14:00

in a the it was really appalling at

14:03

both at from that scene there

14:05

was also a case are you know

14:07

a standard kargozaran get to see

14:09

them there's your trade lung the country's entry

14:11

into a see what have you that

14:13

is somehow disappeared

14:16

and guard across the room with said

14:18

are how do you lose a gays was anyway

14:21

it's that's one of of a number of of

14:23

anomalies in the case but

14:25

overall the dm the

14:28

forensic elements of things though notwithstanding

14:31

huge advances in dna since

14:33

nineteen ninety six there's no

14:35

indication as of yes that

14:39

forensically there will be anything

14:41

in this cold case review that might be so

14:43

to speak a smoking gun or whatever

14:46

ah is possible but from everything

14:48

i can determine at the moment it doesn't

14:50

seem very likely i think perhaps

14:53

said they're investigating guarantee

14:56

are placing more store and

14:58

more whole for in somebody

15:00

coming forward with

15:03

some new evidence no one

15:05

issue around us what's

15:08

his reviews happen we see them happened here

15:10

and in order jurisdictions and when they

15:12

do turn of something is major news because

15:14

you're talking about something new after twenty

15:17

twenty five years and so delete

15:19

this have the and have been convictions and this jurisdiction

15:21

as a result of us however the

15:24

have against that in this case the

15:26

have to remember this is not

15:28

something that happened twenty six

15:31

years ago now under investigation

15:33

and that was the end of it and we had no more for twenty six

15:35

years in various guises

15:38

this has been passed and examined

15:40

by and seven course by as

15:42

french authorities by the dpp

15:45

on over again and again by

15:47

again have again very detailed assessment

15:49

from the dp peace officer saw on

15:52

the whole i would suggest that that

15:54

probably makes it less likely have

15:56

a breakthrough however there is no

15:58

doubt that there are the jewish and

16:00

swear by something new does come to life

16:03

and of a same induces i'd

16:05

suggest that the guardian relying on

16:07

it being so individual somewhere

16:09

who may not have come forward or or may not

16:11

have thought it was this three to come forward

16:14

are that they had nothing to add to pitcher

16:16

i'd suggest that that is the rules disregard

16:19

the of this more stored in in

16:21

attempting to when to get a result this

16:23

time around us and interestingly

16:25

the sunday times these by john noon sunday

16:28

which revealed the cold case

16:31

review begins with the our

16:33

observation the tools thomas davis

16:36

former partner girlfriend who

16:38

is to assist guard the

16:41

in their first investigation into

16:43

the murder there is another important

16:46

am intervention here makes when

16:48

it appeared likely

16:50

that he could be extradited because

16:52

there was a nice this case heard in the

16:54

courts here to examine

16:57

the feasibility of in isolation former

17:00

director of public prosecutions barnes

17:03

it is nine it's a

17:05

very unusual step the riding

17:08

a long details never

17:11

about the case warning against

17:14

to lighting valley on the grounds

17:16

that and in said that

17:18

cpp these opinion

17:21

he was not guilty

17:23

and this is like don't have the procedures

17:26

that still there were other having where

17:28

he was were not safe yeah

17:30

and i'm just him dispensaries

17:32

are cameras the first or second attempt at it from within

17:35

the first attempt on and what's the fridge

17:37

straight him extradited and the high court

17:39

since it's the extradition yeah

17:41

had the scenario than that it looked like a

17:43

in released yesterday that and was coming

17:46

before the supreme court and there was not an intervention

17:48

from the farmer dpp and around

17:50

the same time and from this move a cast

17:53

member hundred originated with that sentiment or out

17:55

came to light remembered ended up online

17:57

what have you i came to light with

17:59

this and the who a forty page

18:01

analysis there have been done by

18:04

ah and and officer arrived remember

18:07

the dpp the office referred she and with the

18:09

man's amps back in two thousand a month

18:11

though this was a very details the

18:15

analysis of the case he and

18:17

ennis he went into some detail

18:20

in pointing out the very

18:22

slow as there had been for example

18:24

on the basis he suggested as an

18:27

disregards he had put it a both

18:30

that this man mister bailey was a danger

18:33

and as it was quite possible he

18:35

would offend again in a violent

18:37

manner know the dpp the analysis

18:40

made the point you know when you do that sorta

18:42

thing you immediately changed

18:44

a a mood perhaps in a

18:46

community and a

18:48

willing this among the community to perhaps

18:51

come forward with something that may not

18:53

have a lot of credibility year for example

18:55

there on the fear of an individual have your that's just

18:57

one example with there was a number of example

18:59

safe that he went through how

19:02

the initial investigation had been

19:04

so flawed and what i found interesting

19:06

about it am and was in one or two places

19:09

this lawyer made reference to disabilities

19:12

innocence know that the

19:15

me goes way beyond a d v

19:17

p would normally the scientists

19:19

a site of redditors enough evidence to pursue

19:21

with cheese put this really

19:23

came across in a way that suggested

19:26

that there was a beliefs or the this month

19:28

that there was no with the disc i could have

19:30

had could have them could have been into

19:32

frames the good said has to

19:34

be said garvey

19:36

have disputed a lot that was invest

19:39

force and the specific robotics

19:42

how much as wasn't very clear

19:44

but there's no doubt that i think das

19:48

analysis have a huge impact

19:50

on the public as much as antics

19:52

remembered the public opinion and this

19:54

it has been a very high profile gifts and

19:56

somebody made a point received very valid point

19:59

this is a awful murder of

20:01

a woman but there have been numerous

20:04

other women who been murdered since for

20:06

which nobody's been convicted

20:08

and we haven't concentrates that's more to muslim

20:10

concerns or have you that kind of thing bush

20:13

it has to be said that the public

20:16

public the public public opinion sisters

20:20

the results as as and a few other things

20:22

along the way because back that low because

20:24

you mentioned the and i tend to the back in court

20:27

at that time i think

20:30

i think it's safe to say there was there was a have

20:32

a view among the public service or values

20:34

guilty as hell but we now know

20:37

that the perceptions and the so called

20:39

evidence and which that was base was

20:42

definitely flawed

20:43

yeah now i suppose

20:45

the key it is cold

20:48

case or one is the keys

20:50

and this coke case

20:52

an investigation the

20:54

beatles summers the former

20:56

partners in daily see

20:59

provided the alibi for

21:01

the night an alibi that

21:03

was castile then he barely

21:05

was with her at home and

21:08

have not traveled the distance

21:11

and bags that they would have had

21:13

to travel to a commit

21:15

this crime that

21:17

the fight

21:19

that she i'm valley

21:21

are no longer and partners

21:24

seems to me to be the

21:26

most a because they your

21:28

money rights in the sunday times that she

21:30

is compared to assist

21:33

the third call case reexamination

21:36

that seems one interesting

21:40

and

21:41

you think infinitive way

21:43

of establishing quite a bally's could

21:45

are could not as committed find you on

21:47

his the police behavior it makes

21:50

say there was somebody a

21:52

man he was i think living on the

21:54

streets and a homeless man they

21:56

were alleged to have given alcohol cannabis

21:59

to the the man in order to provide

22:02

damning evidence against daily so

22:05

the behavior of the police and was

22:07

com may have been questioned

22:09

well as well as says he was question

22:12

yeah i'll just do with

22:14

how the first of all i mean there has to be said it's

22:16

along with you can barely see is all the said the

22:19

to cooperate running on this to give yeah and

22:21

as i remember correctly when the severely

22:23

rose to missionary me to points that

22:25

bosses and and their solicitor

22:27

i'm fine but was you mentioned what

22:30

what would on it would all cooperate and

22:32

there is as you said in some suppress

22:34

the circumstances change in

22:37

the last couple of years but it should also

22:39

be stay suggests there is no indication

22:42

oh no oh no not that mr

22:45

thomas would have any intention of changing

22:47

our evidence whatsoever and

22:50

peace mission the sunday times it's times think into detail

22:52

of us there was no indication no indication

22:54

it as either whatsoever self but i

22:56

mean people going to speculate various things inevitably

22:59

am which was in regard to the guards

23:02

he does no question that was

23:04

the case even that there was an

23:06

a young many i think he was volume he

23:08

was to time but he certainly was somebody who was

23:11

that didn't have a permanent address and as and

23:14

he was known to mr bailey and

23:16

or was at interaction with the guards either was

23:18

also silk and dagger stuff that was

23:20

definitely i think

23:22

cannabis given to him and

23:24

their suggestions as use the induce to

23:27

get fairly to confess i'm

23:29

not only that for the in the investigation

23:32

in them into our phones

23:34

happy that originated in this case for

23:36

know to be a national things that was suggested

23:39

that did that to judge who

23:41

sat on this tribunals said

23:43

that some causes suggested

23:45

there was an intention to pursue barely

23:47

in that manner he didn't said sensitively that

23:50

sensitively had happened but i suppose

23:52

it also has to be in

23:55

slightly different context to and that is

23:57

nineteen ninety six with car

24:00

a violence murder for

24:02

home there is no obvious suspect i

24:05

mean is that was really i

24:07

don't know the first time some people just come back

24:09

to the war of independence on your anything

24:12

of this nature there and there for

24:14

whether quite obviously the local guards

24:16

he would not be accustomed to us and

24:18

whether they were equipped to deal

24:20

with the matter properly and they get a few other things

24:23

particularly that david the the

24:25

fatalities at the of at the time was

24:27

twenty four hours little thought of his own

24:29

he was overworked and deal with other cases

24:32

said it was v and and there was issues like for example

24:34

of people were allowed to

24:37

am crossover to crime

24:39

scene the hours after does

24:41

a lot of things like that at

24:43

added up to it sure does it certainly

24:45

wasn't the a rigorous examined a add

24:47

this to get more of her element their to has

24:49

been size a few times and that was

24:52

once the spotlight came on this severely

24:55

and this city is is a forces or the

24:57

guard investigations to immediately

25:00

on other avenues of

25:02

inquiries of inquiries of possible suspects

25:05

were closed down and a concentration

25:07

was on this severely the spice

25:09

what's in retrospect seems like relatively

25:12

slim the evidence thought that

25:14

was another thought of as as well at the time and

25:17

between all that you know all of that

25:19

is added to the controversy or own discuss

25:21

and hold was investigated from day one

25:24

and finally make a should be

25:26

pointed out that and the bailey

25:28

has welcomed this cold

25:30

case review and

25:32

indeed last week it emerged

25:35

there were like mr bailey announced the

25:38

he was selling tee shirts fairing

25:40

his image the finance podcast

25:43

he plans to make on the case

25:46

but he welcomed as a say the

25:48

cold case review

25:50

jim sheridan and made a five

25:52

part the guy documentary

25:55

merger at the cottage and

25:57

there was very successful podcast west

25:59

coast and there was also two

26:02

other tv shows one of

26:04

them on netflix is

26:14

there he's a murderer and

26:16

service some suggestion that

26:18

perhaps though he tuscan

26:21

the blondie i was murdered by of as someone

26:23

known to her from france that's

26:25

been around them exactly and you describe

26:27

the baby is not bad i think that's very

26:30

true a to ferguson the eat because

26:32

he is certainly somebody let

26:35

me put it this way that , might find

26:37

difficulty in synthesizing

26:39

or empathizing with him that he

26:42

is also in my reporting on the case

26:44

for sunday tribune make i

26:46

believe used to work i

26:49

absolutely know that the also the phone i

26:51

words or i thought i'd still

26:53

recall i was actually working in the star

26:56

in christmas ninety ninety six

26:58

and i still recall absolving

27:01

as the submitter sober use copy and i still

27:03

recall one day the

27:05

news editor looking off and

27:08

thing hi who

27:11

was fighting for us, is that is

27:13

a suspect and

27:24

he's been in the same spot

27:28

as

27:40

any

27:50

to what

27:59

is the next?

27:59

one

28:01

the focus very much

28:03

on the in the early and he attempted

28:05

to have that parts he'd say

28:07

that this to because our taxes on successful

28:10

in that's what they did they keep zone and

28:12

opposite sides the park estimates with car accident

28:15

podcast the was very new to last the same

28:17

as a yep agree seth visiting los

28:19

put all his ass the course

28:22

i did to the my

28:24

calories and the case and i would

28:26

suggest as that's also

28:29

along with their conviction and

28:31

to follow from as in power since two thousand

28:33

and nineteen allied to

28:36

the communication somebody and really

28:38

and mr plants vs on to the garda

28:40

commissioner when you put all that into that

28:43

mix that all ultimately

28:45

i think led to the decision for

28:47

this cold case review and

28:50

will just have to wait to see what renting can

28:52

actually come over

28:54

okay well it's an extraordinary

28:56

story is the saga really and

28:58

there we'll see what happens when

29:01

this case is reviewed les

29:04

mis the planting a rest in peace and

29:07

if there are elements of this the

29:10

reasons and humorous the

29:12

tragedy and this often a touch

29:15

of fast as well we're very grateful

29:17

to make leverage spicy corresponding

29:19

with the ice examiner to all of you

29:21

for listen as all we have signs are now

29:24

itself season

29:33

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29:35

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