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0:06

From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy, this is The

0:07

Steady Stater, a podcast dedicated to discussing limits

0:08

to growth and the steady state

0:12

economy.

0:17

Welcome to the

0:17

show. I'm your host, Brian

0:19

Czech, and our guest today is

0:19

artist, activist, and author

0:23

Christina Conklin, based in Half

0:23

Moon Bay, California. Christina

0:28

gets creative in a variety of

0:28

media at the nexus of nature and

0:32

culture. Her award-winning work

0:32

has been exhibited in the USA,

0:36

Japan, and Hong Kong. She's also

0:36

worked in the publishing and

0:40

non-profit sectors, and she's a

0:40

co-author of the recent book,

0:44

The Atlas of Disappearing

0:44

Places: Our Coasts and Oceans in

0:49

the Climate Crisis. Believe it

0:49

or not, her co-authors name is

0:53

Marina; that's Marina Psaros, a

0:53

climate and sustainability

0:57

activist. The Atlas comprises 20

0:57

stories of global heating

1:01

impacts around the world, from

1:01

Hawaii to Hamburg, San Juan to

1:06

Shanghai. These contemporary

1:06

narratives are woven together

1:10

with speculative "future

1:10

histories" envisioned for 2050.

1:15

This creative book, with

1:15

stunning and colorful maps and

1:18

graphs, is a one of a kind mix

1:18

of fact finding, coffee table,

1:23

storytelling, and cli-fi genres.

1:23

Christina Conklin, welcome to

1:28

The Steady Stater.

1:30

Thank you so much for having me.

1:32

Thanks for being on

1:32

the show. Christina, your love

1:35

of the oceans comes through loud

1:35

and clear in your work. What's

1:39

the love story there, if you

1:39

will? How did you get so close

1:43

to the oceans?

1:44

Well, I grew

1:44

up going to the Oregon coast a

1:46

lot as a child. And I think, you

1:46

know, we just each have an

1:50

inherent love of a certain kind

1:50

of a place, whether it's the

1:54

mountains, or the desert, or the

1:54

city. And for me, the ocean is

1:57

my place. And I ended up doing a

1:57

lot of work on the ocean, in my

2:02

graduate work, my fine art

2:02

degree, looking at long-term

2:08

cycles and geologic time, and

2:08

how the ocean is both a metaphor

2:12

for that, but also a specific

2:12

site, where you can do a lot of

2:16

work that has to do with

2:16

ecology, and you know, the state

2:20

of the planet and the peril that

2:20

we're in at the moment.

2:24

Okay, in The Atlas

2:24

of Disappearing Places -- I'll

2:27

just call it The Atlas -- you

2:27

focused on four global heating

2:31

impacts in our oceans and along

2:31

our coastlines: changing

2:34

chemistry, warming waters,

2:34

strengthening storms, and rising

2:39

seas. You've tied these four

2:39

themes to a metaphor of the

2:43

human body, too. Can you

2:43

elaborate a bit on the metaphor

2:47

you constructed?

2:48

Yes, of course. I developed an ocean-as-body metaphor

2:50

throughout the book, because I

2:54

felt like if we could identify

2:54

-- we understand our own bodies

2:58

fairly well -- if we could

2:58

identify with the living world

3:01

as an organism as well, then we

3:01

might be able to come back into

3:06

stronger relationship with it,

3:06

rather than seeing the Earth as

3:10

a resource and an ocean as a

3:10

garbage dump. Let's think of it

3:14

as a body, and all of the

3:14

systems and how they connect,

3:18

and how they are healthy, and

3:18

how they get sick. And so within

3:22

our own bodies, you know, if we

3:22

have -- we change our chemistry

3:26

if we overuse a particular

3:26

substance, "substance abuse,"

3:30

and so the metaphor is that --

3:30

in the book -- is that we are

3:34

overusing fossil fuels right

3:34

now. And that is the abuse

3:38

that's happening on the

3:38

planetary scale. And in the

3:42

warming water section of the

3:42

book, you know, the Earth has

3:44

caught a fever. And when we

3:44

catch a fever, there are impacts

3:48

throughout our body, beyond just

3:48

the local site of the infection

3:52

or the, you know, the particular

3:52

virus, and fevers can be deadly,

3:56

right? And so we are at a moment

3:56

of runaway fever in the ocean.

4:00

It's only just begun, but it's

4:00

already impacting ecosystems on

4:06

a global scale. And we need to

4:06

be paying attention to the

4:10

ocean's systems and the Earth's

4:10

systems. In the same way we

4:14

would take care of ourselves if

4:14

we were ill.

4:17

Yeah, it's kind of

4:17

a coastal COVID scenario.

4:22

Right.

4:24

Well, Christina,

4:24

it's my privilege to quote one

4:26

of our favorite CASSE

4:26

signatories, Vandana Shiva. She

4:30

said, "The Atlas of Disappearing

4:30

Places is a story told through

4:35

art and science that takes us on

4:35

a journey across the planet,

4:39

through the throwaway culture of

4:39

plastic waste and the toxic

4:44

culture of fertilizers and

4:44

pesticides and dead zones. It's

4:48

not just a story of climate

4:48

change. It is also a story of

4:52

extinction. A must-read for

4:52

anyone who cares about the

4:56

future of the planet and

4:56

people." You had some other

4:58

great blurbs, Christina, but

4:58

that one does a nice job of

5:01

introducing the book, and sounds

5:01

to me like you made quite an

5:05

impression on Vandana Shiva!

5:08

Well, that's

5:08

a, it was a great honor, of

5:11

course, to get that kind of

5:11

endorsement from her. She's

5:15

amazing. I think what we tried

5:15

to do was tied together, you

5:20

know, often climate change gets

5:20

talked about in isolation, as an

5:24

issue of, you know, greenhouse

5:24

gas emissions, but it's so much

5:28

more interconnected than that.

5:28

And what Dr. Shiva was pointing

5:33

out was that plastics is, we

5:33

think of as just like a

5:38

pollution problem, but it's

5:38

actually a climate change

5:41

problem, because it is the

5:41

fossil fuels we extract from the

5:45

Earth to create the plastic that

5:45

then becomes the garbage that

5:49

chokes the turtles. So we really

5:49

have to take things back to

5:52

their sources. And the source,

5:52

as you all well know, is an

5:58

extractive economy that is bent

5:58

on growth above all else, and

6:03

that is just using the Earth as

6:03

-- this is ridiculous to say --

6:09

but a resource rather than the

6:09

source itself of all that we,

6:13

all we have and all that we are.

6:16

Mmhmm, yes. You

6:16

know, you featured the plight of

6:19

our oceans. But of course, a lot

6:19

of the human suffering is meted

6:23

out along those coastlines. And

6:23

I hope this isn't too personal

6:27

of a question, but what keeps

6:27

you up at night? Is it our

6:30

violation of Mother Nature or

6:30

the vulnerability of the

6:34

Rohingya refugees stranded out

6:34

on those Bangladeshi chars?

6:39

Yeah, well, I

6:39

think this is a very personal--

6:43

I mean, it has to be personal,

6:43

we all have to take this

6:45

personally. I think that's been

6:45

what we-- so many people haven't

6:49

been willing to do yet. And it's

6:49

hard, because it can bring up

6:53

feelings of like hopelessness

6:53

and despair, and like feeling

6:57

too small to be able to create

6:57

an impact. And so the, you know,

7:01

these are difficult emotions,

7:01

there's grief associated with

7:04

what is happening in the world

7:04

right now. And I would say that

7:08

the important thing is to

7:08

acknowledge those things, and

7:11

then to come together with other

7:11

people, and discuss those things

7:15

so that you're not, you know,

7:15

we're not alone. And that, in

7:18

itself, is an act of, I would

7:18

say, a revolutionary political

7:22

act, to talk about these things

7:22

together. So yeah, I am kept up

7:29

at night by basically what the

7:29

world's gonna be like for my

7:34

children and grandchildren, of

7:34

course. And it is, it's a very,

7:39

it's a painful position we're

7:39

in. I was able, I think, to

7:41

abstract it enough in the

7:41

process of writing the book to

7:44

get the book written. But this

7:44

is I think, the next cultural

7:47

challenge for all of us is to

7:47

have difficult conversations

7:52

together in a, you know,

7:52

compassionate and

7:56

forward-looking way that doesn't

7:56

fall -- I think despair is a cop

8:00

out at this point. We really

8:00

need to actually be doing all we

8:04

can to build the new systems we

8:04

need within the old broken

8:09

systems, so that they are ready,

8:09

they are ready when the old

8:13

systems, you know, stop working

8:13

even more fully than they have

8:17

already.

8:18

Well, along those

8:18

lines, some of the disappearing

8:20

places you wrote about are a lot

8:20

further into the disappearing

8:24

act than others. Those chars in

8:24

Bangladesh are pretty high on

8:28

the list. And what other places

8:28

would you say would round out

8:31

the top five in terms of

8:31

catastrophic imminence?

8:36

Well, where

8:36

things are happening now, I

8:40

would say the Arctic is in the

8:40

greatest danger in the world

8:43

right now. They've seen rising

8:43

temperatures and environmental

8:48

changes at a scale that the rest

8:48

of us really can't even imagine.

8:54

There aren't that many people in

8:54

the Arctic witnessing this, but

8:58

there are indigenous Inuit in

8:58

northern Canada and peoples

9:03

along the Asian continent, as

9:03

well. And there's a lot we can

9:08

learn from indigenous folks

9:08

around the world wherever they

9:12

are, because they have long

9:12

cultural memories, and we have

9:16

comparatively very short

9:16

cultural memories. So how you

9:19

live in times of change, and how

9:19

you adapt, and how you listen to

9:26

nature, and have a relationship

9:26

with it, and correspond with it

9:30

is something we should really be

9:30

focusing on. And fortunately,

9:34

there is a big movement in the

9:34

indigenous community to share

9:39

their knowledge and to become

9:39

more powerful and vocal. And so

9:44

I would actually say that's a

9:44

very hopeful sign. I would say

9:49

the other main place I think

9:49

about is urban cities. Just

9:54

because we have culturally

9:54

invested so much of our money

9:58

and investment in urban cities

9:58

around the world, and they're

10:02

almost always on a coastline. So

10:02

we have the challenges of

10:07

industrial toxins, and we have

10:07

the challenges of, you know, in

10:10

-- people have filled in land in

10:10

cities and still are, all that

10:14

land is going to drown. And you

10:14

know, so the the challenges of

10:19

reconfiguring how we design and

10:19

live in cities is I would say

10:24

the other main thing that is --

10:24

feels a little far away now, but

10:29

it's actually a critical issue

10:29

to address now, because of

10:34

course, as we build things they

10:34

last a century. And we are

10:38

heading on the wrong path in

10:38

that regard.

10:42

Yeah, you wrote

10:42

about New York City -- the

10:44

"Capital of Capital," you called

10:44

it -- some of the policy choices

10:48

made in the aftermath of

10:48

Hurricane Sandy. And you made

10:52

the ironic point that making an

10:52

area more resilient, such as

10:56

with sea walls, can then just

10:56

encourage further development

11:00

and growth in the now supposedly

11:00

safe flood plain. Do you have

11:04

any artwork in mind to

11:04

illustrate the folly of such a

11:08

response?

11:09

Well, there

11:09

has been an interesting artwork,

11:11

actually, in New York City, it's

11:11

maybe even 10 years old now. But

11:16

it was called High Water Line.

11:16

And it was an artist who walked

11:22

around New York with a baseball

11:22

field chalking machine to show

11:26

people where the tide line would

11:26

be in the future. And of course,

11:30

you're walking through the middle of people's neighborhoods, and, you know,

11:31

around office buildings. And

11:34

it's something, I think there

11:34

are a number of artists who are

11:37

trying to help visualize for

11:37

people what it could be. There

11:41

was another project in San

11:41

Francisco where the artist sort

11:45

of put barnacles halfway up the

11:45

telephone poles. Just to say,

11:50

"hello!" And so I've led some

11:50

participatory walks, called

11:56

Tideline as Timeline walks. And

11:56

they really talk about, you

12:00

know, where is this tideline

12:00

going to be? And how do we

12:04

relate to that future that we

12:04

can't quite imagine. I mean, as

12:08

you will probably know that, you

12:08

know, we've been in this kind of

12:12

geologic pause for the past 5000

12:12

years when sea levels have been

12:17

very stable. And that is going

12:17

to change. And it's going to

12:20

change very, very quickly,

12:20

starting, you know, soon in the

12:24

next couple of decades. So these

12:24

are conversations we need to

12:28

have.

12:29

Yeah, you can see

12:29

it in places already, where, you

12:32

know, down on the Gulf of

12:32

Mexico, and Chesapeake Bay, and

12:36

places where we've already lost

12:36

-- half of some of the National

12:40

Wildlife Refuges in those areas,

12:40

for example. Your chapter on

12:44

Vietnam is titled Doing More

12:44

With Less. So we like the sound

12:48

of that -- sounds very steady

12:48

state-ish. And the chapter

12:52

focuses on rice production,

12:52

which often has a large methane

12:55

footprint. These rice farmers

12:55

face growing challenges as the

12:59

climate changes, hence, the less

12:59

part of the chapter title doing

13:04

more with less. So what's

13:04

happening to farming in places

13:08

like Vietnam? And where are they

13:08

going to get their food?

13:13

Well, I --

13:13

not being an agronomist, I don't

13:17

have an easy answer for you. I

13:17

mean, I know that there are, of

13:21

course, projects that are

13:21

developing heat-tolerant grains,

13:27

and things like that. I don't

13:27

know if they will keep pace with

13:30

the rate of change that will be

13:30

coming in a few decades. It is,

13:35

you know, it's a major challenge

13:35

feeding the world, and

13:40

especially when -- in especially

13:40

like the rice growing countries,

13:45

those are really, I mean, not

13:45

even high, I think high risk

13:50

makes it sound as if something

13:50

might not happen, but sea level

13:54

will rise a meter in the coming

13:54

decades, and 40% of the Mekong

14:00

Delta rice growing area will be

14:00

underwater. So you know, these

14:05

are facts. Again, it behooves us

14:05

to think of them as such not as

14:09

risks or probabilities, but as

14:09

facts.

14:12

Exactly.

14:13

Yeah, I'm

14:13

hopeful for science and coming

14:19

up with ways to keep the people

14:19

fed. But of course, population

14:23

growth is one of the real risks

14:23

of our culture right now. We

14:29

have outlived, we've outstripped

14:29

our planet in terms of human

14:32

population.

14:33

Moving over to a

14:33

different part of the world. In

14:36

your chapter on San Juan, Puerto

14:36

Rico, you go back to the 2017

14:40

disaster of Hurricane Maria,

14:40

where the death toll estimates

14:44

went as high as 4000. Based on

14:44

your account of the problem, it

14:48

wasn't just bad geographical

14:48

luck, but the bureaucratic and

14:53

legal confusion caused by Puerto

14:53

Rico status as an unincorporated

14:57

territory of the USA. How

14:57

tragically frustrating that must

15:02

have been for Puerto Ricans. You

15:02

think we should expect a

15:05

geopolitical future of more

15:05

independence and secession

15:09

movements?

15:12

Well, it is interesting. I actually am hopeful that that will happen.

15:14

And the chapter I wrote about

15:18

the Cook Islands in the South

15:18

Pacific also points at this idea

15:22

of greater autonomy for colonial

15:22

and formerly colonial nations.

15:29

You know, how do we, how do

15:29

people have more say about their

15:35

their own communities, lives,

15:35

and futures? And so it's -- I

15:40

was actually surprised to learn

15:40

that there's actually a UN

15:44

department whose whole mission

15:44

is to move some of these small

15:49

island territories and far flung

15:49

places, you know, into -- out of

15:54

-- into a post colonial era,

15:54

into an autonomous status. I

15:59

think there will be more moves

15:59

for that, I think there is

16:01

energy moving in this direction,

16:01

both because as I mentioned, of

16:06

the sort of indigenous claims,

16:06

and rights, and the rights of

16:11

nature is another interesting

16:11

area of law that is developing,

16:17

that I think will move things

16:17

toward, more toward locality,

16:22

and more away from

16:22

globalization, I guess is the

16:26

simple word for it.

16:28

Well, Christina,

16:28

we've got a few more questions

16:30

for you, including about the

16:30

futures you envision for the

16:33

disappearing places. But first,

16:33

we need to take a short

16:37

non-commercial break with James

16:37

Lamont. Take it away, James!

16:47

Hello, listeners.

16:47

We hope you're enjoying the

16:49

show. If this episode has

16:49

inspired you, and you're

16:52

considering any creative methods

16:52

to advance the steady state

16:55

economy in 2022, there are lots

16:55

of ways that you can communicate

16:58

those ideas with us. Our podcast

16:58

page at our website

17:01

steadystate.org is open to

17:01

public comments. And you can

17:04

also find email addresses for

17:04

all of our staff. On social

17:07

media, we're active on Twitter

17:07

and Facebook. Just search either

17:11

site for CASSE. And if you need

17:11

another way to get in touch with

17:14

us, we're sure that you'll find

17:14

a creative solution. And now,

17:17

back to the show.

17:20

Welcome back. We're

17:20

talking with Christina Conklin,

17:23

co-author of The Atlas of

17:23

Disappearing Places. Before we

17:27

get to the future, as I alluded

17:27

to in part one, let's talk for a

17:31

bit about the artistic methods

17:31

you used, Christina, in The

17:34

Atlas. You rendered the maps in

17:34

your book using an

17:39

ink-on-dried-seaweed process. It

17:39

makes for a pretty unique

17:42

presentation, kind of

17:42

reminiscent of the maps of yore.

17:46

Tell us about so-called

17:46

"sea-lettuce" as a medium, and

17:49

why you chose to work with it on

17:49

this project.

17:53

Yes, well, I

17:53

spend a lot of time at the

17:55

ocean, as I said, lucky enough

17:55

to live near it. And I began

18:00

collecting all of this abundant

18:00

seaweed that was washing up on

18:05

our shores, and playing with it,

18:05

really, this is what artists do,

18:08

luckily. And I found that when

18:08

these sort of the big sheets of,

18:14

they call it sea-lettuce. They

18:14

wash up, and when it dries, it

18:18

shrinks a bit, it turns into

18:18

something like a kind of a

18:21

parchment paper that does look

18:21

like the old fashioned maps, it

18:25

has sort of a veiny living

18:25

quality, which I really liked.

18:29

And then it bleaches out over

18:29

time the chlorophyll dissipates,

18:34

and it becomes again, like this

18:34

kind of creamy color. And so I

18:39

just started playing with that a

18:39

lot. And then transposing the

18:43

actual published scientific maps

18:43

that climate scientists are

18:46

developing in these many, many

18:46

research studies to show the

18:51

shrinking of the Arctic ice

18:51

sheets, the sea level rise as it

18:55

will be in coming decades and

18:55

centuries. And so that kind of

19:00

light painting on the seaweed

19:00

and then layering that onto a

19:05

Google Earth map to give some

19:05

geographical reference points,

19:09

does kind of marry this kind of

19:09

new data with old timey look.

19:16

But also using the product of

19:16

the sea to illustrate the issues

19:19

in the sea, which to me was a

19:19

good reason to go with this

19:24

material.

19:25

Yeah, well, it was

19:25

quite an effect. I'm glad you

19:27

did that. Early in The Atlas you

19:27

wrote about ecological

19:31

thresholds or tipping points,

19:31

and you displayed this fairly

19:35

well-known graphic by now on

19:35

planetary boundaries from the

19:38

Stockholm Resilience Center.

19:38

Kate Raeworth helped to

19:41

popularize that image in

19:41

doughnut economics. And then of

19:44

course, we took the donut and

19:44

rolled it out into a

19:47

steady-state diagram. A

19:47

"breadstick" we called it, with

19:51

GDP on the Y axis. I guess I

19:51

don't need to tell you this,

19:55

Christina, you as an artist, but

19:55

the old adage that a picture

19:59

speaks a thousand words was a

19:59

real winner, wasn't it?

20:03

Absolutely.

20:03

And to that end, I would love to

20:07

let people know that there are

20:07

art projects going on now, as we

20:10

mentioned earlier to help

20:10

visualize this change, not just

20:14

climate change, but all of the

20:14

interwoven economic and social

20:18

crises that are rolling up

20:18

together at this point. And I'm

20:22

part of a project called

20:22

"whatsnextforearth.com." That is

20:27

artists responding to the video

20:27

course put out by Richard

20:32

Heinberg, and the Post Carbon

20:32

Institute. It's called "Think

20:35

Resilience." And it lays out,

20:35

you know, the interconnection

20:39

between where we get our energy

20:39

and how we create our economies,

20:43

and what assumptions we make

20:43

around those things and how

20:47

those have created the problem

20:47

that we're in, and how we can

20:51

write new stories to write a

20:51

different future. So anyway,

20:54

there are artists who are

20:54

responding with visual artworks

20:58

to these challenges of resource

20:58

depletion, and population

21:04

growth, and such. And I would

21:04

encourage people to look it up

21:10

-- whatsnextforearth.com -- as a

21:10

way to, again, just take the

21:14

artistic impulse and try to move

21:14

beyond words in conveying some

21:20

of these powerful ideas.

21:23

Well, I guess

21:23

proportionately how many artists

21:27

out there, do you think, know

21:27

about the need for a steady

21:30

state economy now? Do artists

21:30

tend to be more or less aware

21:34

than the average citizen about

21:34

limits to growth?

21:37

You know,

21:37

unfortunately, I'm going to say,

21:41

it's not very well-known. And

21:41

there are some of us, you know,

21:45

working hard to spread the word.

21:45

I first learned about it as a

21:49

possibility -- I had never even

21:49

really heard of it until about

21:52

2015 -- when I went to a big

21:52

conference on process philosophy

21:57

down in Pomona College. That was

21:57

-- it was looking at where we

22:01

are in the world from lots of

22:01

different perspectives. So I

22:05

just think it's an idea that

22:05

hasn't, doesn't really get

22:09

enough airplay. And, you know,

22:09

we're working on it, as are you.

22:13

But I think artists like so many

22:13

people are really in the culture

22:19

that, you know, we're the fish

22:19

in the water, right? It's hard

22:22

to see the water when you're in

22:22

it. And artists have been --

22:26

typically have kind of gone to a

22:26

more of a like a Marxist model

22:30

or, like they understand the

22:30

system is broken, don't have a

22:33

full understanding of why, and

22:33

how, and what to do about it. So

22:39

there are those of us who are

22:39

working to to educate artists so

22:42

that artists can then educate

22:42

others.

22:46

Well, we noticed

22:46

that in one of the sidebars of

22:49

your book, you did bring out the

22:49

concept of the steady state

22:53

economy, which of course we

22:53

really appreciated. And then, in

22:57

fact, you introduced a number of

22:57

terms in the book. And one of

23:01

them, it seemed that you really

23:01

took too is the term

23:05

"transilience," which you wrote

23:05

about in your concluding

23:08

chapter. Now, you know, E. O.

23:08

Wilson just left us a few weeks

23:11

ago. In fact, we eulogized him

23:11

on our last episode. And Ed was

23:16

a big proponent of consilience.

23:19

Yeah.

23:19

So what, yeah,

23:19

what's the difference between

23:21

consilience and transilience?

23:25

Yes, well, I

23:25

read Consilience, his book on

23:28

that topic, and came away with a

23:28

feeling that he really just

23:33

wanted everybody to agree with

23:33

him. And that would be called

23:38

consilient thinking.

23:41

Don't we all?

23:44

That does

23:44

sound nice, right? So I think it

23:49

had -- so my academic background

23:49

is actually in religious

23:52

studies, and I have tremendous

23:52

admiration for and respect for

23:57

the need and drive among humans

23:57

to understand our place in the

24:03

world. And that's, that has

24:03

existed in every culture through

24:07

time and looks like, you know,

24:07

different religious traditions

24:10

and philosophical traditions.

24:10

So, to me, Consilience didn't

24:15

really incorporate that element

24:15

of human culture in a way that

24:20

speaks to me. Transilience, you

24:20

know, these are all just words.

24:24

But the idea, "silience" is the

24:24

idea of jumping, right? You can

24:29

either be "resilient," which is

24:29

to jump back, to bounce back, to

24:33

have the skills and strategies

24:33

to become whole again.

24:37

Transilience is the idea of

24:37

jumping forward, a

24:40

transformative change. And the

24:40

idea that you can make creative

24:45

leaps rather than incremental

24:45

change. And so I like the word

24:51

to posit it, as as an idea to

24:51

say, can we jump? Can we leap?

24:55

Do we have to do small, small,

24:55

incremental changes to

25:00

economies, and cultures, and

25:00

climate policies, etc? Or can we

25:05

just make the leap? And my hope

25:05

is that we can, and that I

25:09

think, and I think it's been

25:09

shown, you know that this is

25:11

nonlinear change. And that

25:11

implies, and actually assures

25:17

that, yes, we can make leaps.

25:19

Well, you know,

25:19

we've been contemplating here at

25:22

CASSE, the value of stories,

25:22

storytelling, and narratives

25:25

quite a bit lately. Now you've

25:25

declared that [quote]

25:29

"imagination is needed to tell a

25:29

new story, one that refuses

25:33

heroes and villains but rather

25:33

finds the threads that bind all

25:37

to all, such stories are best

25:37

told quietly, like fables,

25:42

because the world is scary

25:42

enough, without all the

25:44

screaming." Can you elaborate on

25:44

that for us?

25:49

It's interesting that you chose that quote, it's one of those that I

25:51

believe in my very bones. But of

25:57

course, it's hard to maybe

25:57

elaborate on too much. It's just

26:03

I, you know, have faith in

26:03

humanity that we can find a way

26:08

forward that we are meant to be

26:08

in relationship with each other

26:12

and with nature, and that all of

26:12

the fear, and panic, and denial,

26:19

and rage right now is, you know,

26:19

I suppose psychologically

26:24

understandable, but not really

26:24

what we are called to be as

26:31

people. And so I just -- I have

26:31

a tremendous amount of hope in

26:36

people finding each other and

26:36

creating small, functional

26:40

ecological civilizations. Sure,

26:40

you're, you know, well familiar

26:44

with that term, that, you know,

26:44

that we can have communities

26:48

that function well. And it's not

26:48

easy. I mean, none of this is

26:53

easy. I don't want to pretend

26:53

that it is. But I just, I think

26:58

it would be too easy to give up

26:58

and to say, we're doomed. But I

27:04

refuse to do that. I'm a defiant

27:04

optimist.

27:07

Oh, sure. Yeah, I

27:07

mean, we like to use the

27:10

metaphor of the runaway train.

27:10

And even if we are on one, it's

27:15

a matter of how bad the crash is

27:15

at the end of the proverbial day

27:19

y'know, we can slow it down and

27:19

make things a lot less bad than

27:23

they would have been. But that

27:23

brings us to the speculative

27:27

future histories, portions of

27:27

the book, these are all set in

27:31

the year 2050. So how did you

27:31

and Marina Psaros go about

27:36

deciding what to write in terms

27:36

of optimism versus pessimism? So

27:41

in Chapter Two, for example, you

27:41

speculated that Pakistan is in a

27:45

world of pain by 2050, whereas

27:45

neighboring India not so much.

27:51

Are you extrapolating some

27:51

geopolitical trends? Or is it

27:55

more about raw ecology or what?

27:59

Well, I would

27:59

actually say this is where the

28:02

artistry came in, you know.

28:02

Fiction is necessarily wrong.

28:08

It's not meant to be predictive,

28:08

we really just used these

28:13

sections of each chapter as a

28:13

way to draw forth perils and

28:18

possibilities, I guess, you

28:18

know. To point out in the

28:22

chapter that involves India and

28:22

Pakistan, for instance, what it

28:27

looks like to in India, where

28:27

they have green tribunals,

28:30

currently, and if they make them

28:30

effective environmental

28:35

mechanisms to transition their

28:35

culture and economy away from

28:39

the most damaging impacts that

28:39

are currently there, you know,

28:44

that's actually -- could be this

28:44

tremendously hopeful next --

28:48

transilient next step. Whereas

28:48

if Pakistan, you know, follows

28:54

old habits that have gotten, you

28:54

know, have led to lots of

28:57

political corruption and other

28:57

things that also exist in India

29:00

now -- it was really just a

29:00

fictional exercise in compare

29:03

and contrast, right? So each of

29:03

these fictional narratives about

29:08

the future is really purely

29:08

speculative, but hopefully is

29:12

pointing to better and worse

29:12

ways to make decisions, what we

29:16

might want to do and what we

29:16

might not.

29:19

Okay, and then in

29:19

your chapter on the Cook Islands

29:22

in the South Pacific, you

29:22

imagine a future where the

29:24

government authorizes mining of

29:24

the sea floor for minerals.

29:28

Vaguely reminded me of the

29:28

plotline in that new flick Don't

29:31

Look Up, where they're trying to

29:31

figure out how to mine that

29:34

comet. You know, your book is

29:34

full of dramatic stories, the

29:38

true ones unfolding as we speak,

29:38

plus the potential ones you've

29:42

envisioned. Which one would you

29:42

most like to see up on Netflix?

29:49

Well, I

29:49

actually -- that Cook Islands

29:52

chapter is interesting, I

29:52

suppose because it actually came

29:55

true sooner than I predicted in

29:55

the 2050 chapter. I imagined

30:01

that they would start sea mining

30:01

in 2022. But they did it in

30:06

2021. And they used COVID as an

30:06

excuse, that the drop off of

30:12

tourist dollars meant that they

30:12

really needed to quote-unquote

30:15

"diversify their economy" and

30:15

create this kind of dependence

30:19

on deep seabed mining, which is

30:19

a new and unstudied technique of

30:26

raking the sea floor of

30:26

minerals. And so that's already

30:30

happening. And that actually

30:30

would be a fabulous movie

30:33

because there are ecological

30:33

heroes who have been fighting

30:37

this, there is political

30:37

intrigue and infighting, and

30:40

self-serving businessmen and

30:40

mega corporations. And the whole

30:46

thing is right there actually.

30:46

It would be a great miniseries.

30:50

But sadly not with the end that

30:50

we would hope at least not yet.

30:55

You know, again, I always have

30:55

hope that justice will prevail.

31:00

In the name of GDP

31:00

is sounds like could be a title

31:03

for that. Well, Christina,

31:03

thanks so much for being on the

31:09

show today. You're an extremely

31:09

creative thinker and producer of

31:15

different types of products that

31:15

are going to help for a long,

31:19

long time in helping to raise

31:19

awareness about limits to growth

31:23

and the need for degrowth toward

31:23

a steady state economy. Hope you

31:26

come back again in a few months.

31:29

Yeah, well,

31:29

thank you so much. I've enjoyed

31:31

the conversation.

31:48

Well, folks, that

31:48

about wraps her up. We've been

31:51

talking with Christina Conklin,

31:51

artist, activist, and co-author

31:55

of The Atlas of Disappearing

31:55

Places: Our Coasts and Oceans in

32:00

the Climate Crisis. The Atlas

32:00

gives a deep dive, so to speak,

32:05

into the oceans. Now I don't

32:05

want to misportray this truly

32:08

unique book. It's not so much a

32:08

deep data dive, but somehow a

32:14

deep thinking, deep reflection

32:14

dive that must be seen to be

32:17

appreciated. And just because

32:17

it's not an atlas of the

32:21

International Cartographic

32:21

Association, let's not shrug it

32:26

off either. It's a far better

32:26

roadmap than Atlas Shrugged. I'm

32:32

Brian Czech and you've been

32:32

listening to The Steady Stater

32:35

podcast. See you next time!