0:02

From the Center for

0:02

the Advancement of the Steady

0:05

State Economy, this is the

0:05

Steady Stater, a podcast

0:08

dedicated to discussing limits

0:08

to growth and the steady state

0:12

economy.

0:18

Welcome to the

0:18

show! I'm your host, Brian

0:20

Czech, and our guest today is

0:20

Ann Vileisis, an environmental

0:25

historian with a BA from Yale

0:25

and a MA from Utah State. She's

0:30

an award-winning author of three

0:30

books on environmental history.

0:34

Now, let me tell you, these

0:34

aren't recklessly written books

0:37

and doesn't jump around from

0:37

social media to the blogosphere

0:41

to the magazine rack even.

0:41

Rather, she's a deep diver who

0:45

chooses a topic, investigates

0:45

it, and writes a bonafide book

0:50

like no one else can, frankly.

0:50

Her first title was Discovering

0:55

the Unknown Landscape - A

0:55

History of America's Wetlands.

0:59

The next one was Kitchen

0:59

Literacy. And the latest one

1:02

published just last year was

1:02

Abalone. I'm saving the

1:06

subtitles on those last two just

1:06

for a little suspense. But these

1:09

are five-star books all the way.

1:09

Ann Vileisis, welcome to the

1:13

Steady Stater.

1:15

Thank you so much,

1:15

Brian, I'm delighted to be here

1:17

talking with you today.

1:18

We're delighted to

1:18

have you, and sometimes we like

1:22

to get to know our guests a

1:22

little better before we even

1:25

talk about their work. Now your

1:25

husband, Tim Palmer, he's a

1:28

pretty accomplished writer, as

1:28

well -- writer and a

1:31

photographer -- that must make

1:31

for some pretty good

1:33

conversation around your dinner

1:33

table.

1:36

Yeah, it's really

1:36

fun to be married to a writer

1:40

and photographer. And we have

1:40

the wonderful opportunity to

1:44

share our lives and our work in

1:44

really great ways. We can talk

1:48

about ideas, since he also

1:48

writes about environmental

1:51

topics. We can talk about

1:51

writing on so many levels. And

1:55

in fact, in our earlier lives,

1:55

we did a lot of traveling

1:58

together. And travel is

1:58

essential to his photography and

2:02

writing work. And it really

2:02

enriched my historical research

2:06

to travel and see places and

2:06

meet people all around the

2:09

country. So it's been a

2:09

wonderful partnership.

2:12

You guys are out

2:12

somewhere on the Oregon Coast

2:15

now, right?

2:15

That's where we

2:15

have settled. Yes, a wonderful

2:19

-- the Oregon Coast is a

2:19

beautiful place. We've got lots

2:21

of small towns, right on the

2:21

ocean, and we really love it

2:25

here. It's a beautiful place and

2:25

small communities. So it suits

2:30

us very well.

2:31

Sounds beautiful.

2:31

Well, I'm a huge fan of yours.

2:34

You know, when I was a postdoc

2:34

studying the conflict between

2:38

economic growth and

2:38

environmental protection, your

2:41

book on wetlands hit my all-time

2:41

list and remains there to this

2:45

day. That book, of course,

2:45

Discovering the Unknown

2:49

Landscape - A History of

2:49

America's Wetlands, won several

2:53

prestigious awards. And for our

2:53

listeners out there, if you ever

2:56

only read one book on wetlands

2:56

-- and you absolutely should --

3:00

make it this one. Don't let the

3:00

1999 copyright deter you. A good

3:06

history book ages like wine,

3:06

especially when the ingredients

3:09

include natural history. Ann,

3:09

can you give us an overview of

3:13

discovering the unknown landscape?

3:16

Yeah, Brian. First

3:16

of all, I have to say I'm

3:18

honored that you enjoyed the

3:18

book so much and found it so

3:21

useful. My premise in

3:21

Discovering the Unknown

3:23

Landscape was -- I was concerned

3:23

that we -- I realized that we

3:27

had lost so many wetlands. And I

3:27

was also aware that in the past,

3:33

people had really despised and

3:33

disparaged wetlands. And that

3:36

was, of course, the reason for

3:36

so much destruction of them. But

3:39

that in the late 20th century

3:39

that we started to come to value

3:43

them, and I wanted to trace how

3:43

it was that we went from really

3:47

despising wetlands to valuing

3:47

them. And so the book really

3:51

looks at that arc over 400 years

3:51

of American history, our

3:55

attitudes towards wetlands, how

3:55

they changed, and how those

3:58

changes and attitudes helped to

3:58

inform new policies that

4:02

resulted in greater conservation

4:02

of wetlands. So anyway, that's

4:06

the general premise and the

4:06

general story. And I combined

4:09

also -- I'll just say I wove

4:09

together stories about culture

4:12

and art and literature as well

4:12

as policy and law and history of

4:16

science. So it kind of weaves

4:16

all these things together.

4:19

It sure did.

4:19

Another thing I remember was

4:22

Zane Grey, like descriptions of

4:22

the environment. I guess I'm

4:26

aging myself, there greying

4:26

myself so to speak. But you

4:30

know, Zane Grey could put you

4:30

out in the desert as if you're

4:33

riding right through that Purple

4:33

Sage. And I'd say, Ann Vileisis,

4:37

you can put the reader so far

4:37

into a wetland, your legs will

4:41

feel wet if you're not wearing

4:41

hip boots. You must spend a lot

4:46

of time in wetlands, and I have

4:46

to ask what type of wetland is

4:49

your favorite?

4:50

Well, I did spend

4:50

a lot of time in wetlands and

4:54

part of the reason I really

4:54

wanted to go out into them and

4:57

understand them is I really

4:57

needed to understand people's

5:00

writings about them -- the

5:00

historical writings about them.

5:03

I realized I had not ever been

5:03

in wetlands like salt marshes or

5:07

Quaking Bogs or Prairie Potholes

5:07

or Cypress Swamps. And it's a

5:12

hard question to ask, which is

5:12

my favorite, but I have to say I

5:15

really loved canoeing through

5:15

Cypress Swamps with big giant

5:19

old trees in the Southeast. But

5:19

I also love the Quaking Bog and

5:24

walking on the edge of it --

5:24

you're not really supposed to

5:26

walk on them -- but I kind of

5:26

tried gently out to get that

5:30

sense of what is a bog -- like,

5:30

what is the quaking bog like,

5:33

so. Really fascinating

5:33

landscapes that I thought very

5:37

few people really experienced.

5:37

So part of what I had to do in

5:40

my book was to help people

5:40

understand them better.

5:43

Well, on the matter

5:43

of favorites, that must depend a

5:46

little bit on the time of the

5:46

year too. You know, those

5:48

Northern bogs are a far

5:48

different place in the mosquito

5:51

clouds of summer than they are

5:51

in the icy beauty of winter.

5:55

Oh, my gosh, yes.

5:55

Just not that long ago, we

5:58

traveled to some wetlands up on

5:58

the Upper Peninsula in the UP of

6:04

Michigan, and I never

6:04

experienced more mosquitoes in

6:08

my life than up there. So,

6:08

absolutely.

6:12

They borrowed some

6:12

of them from Wisconsin, I think.

6:16

Well, you know, one of my papers

6:16

during that postdoc year I spent

6:20

was about the causes of species

6:20

endangerment. And I settled upon

6:24

18 categories of causes, and one

6:24

of them was wetland draining or

6:28

filling, and it was lumped in

6:28

with aquifer depletion. One

6:32

thing I came away from your

6:32

book, though, was that by the

6:35

time species were even being

6:35

listed pursuant to the

6:39

Endangered Species Act, a lot of

6:39

water had already gone under the

6:42

bridge. If they'd started

6:42

listing species back in, let's

6:46

say, the 1930s, wetland draining

6:46

and filling would have been one

6:49

of the very top causes of

6:49

impairment, I think. Can you

6:53

give us a few examples of

6:53

species that hit the skids due

6:56

to wetland loss?

6:58

Well, that's a

6:58

great question, Brian. I'd say

7:00

one of the first endangered

7:00

species that was really put at

7:04

risk by wetland loss was the

7:04

American alligator, which

7:08

experienced loss of habitat, but

7:08

also was threatened by hunting.

7:12

So that was one species. But you

7:12

know, there were lots more all

7:17

across the country, maybe some

7:17

that were less well-known. In

7:20

San Francisco, for example,

7:20

there was the clapper rail, some

7:24

small fish that were part of the

7:24

bay habitat that were at risk.

7:30

There were some desert fish, you

7:30

know, that were endangered

7:33

species that were also very

7:33

wetland-dependent. So these are

7:37

things that with the passage of

7:37

the Endangered Species Act. It

7:41

really gave greater attention to

7:41

those animals and also the

7:44

importance of their habitat and

7:44

keeping them conserved into the

7:48

future. I would think, too, that

7:48

there's plenty of amphibians,

7:52

water-dependent species like

7:52

that, that are also really

7:55

affected, but may not be as

7:55

well-known.

7:58

Well, and more

7:58

recently, but starting decades

8:02

ago, but more newsworthy, I

8:02

suppose recently, I rebuild

8:06

woodpecker. That's basically a

8:06

bald cypress swamp species,

8:11

right? I don't know a lot about

8:11

the ivory-billed, but seems to

8:14

me that's a pretty crucial

8:14

element in their habitat.

8:17

Yes, I think

8:17

you're absolutely right, Brian.

8:20

Those birds, I believe, were --

8:20

are thought to have been

8:23

cavity-nesting birds that once

8:23

nested in those massive bald

8:28

cypress forests of the

8:28

Southeast. And you know, that

8:31

landscape, I think, is one of

8:31

the ones I was most intrigued to

8:36

learn about, because that

8:36

landscape was literally

8:39

destroyed, most all of it was

8:39

cut over leaving nothing behind.

8:43

I wrote about an interesting

8:43

little, you know, anecdote in my

8:47

book about how the city of New

8:47

Orleans at one point when they

8:49

were redeveloping, they found

8:49

the old stumps, you know. And

8:53

the people that lived in the

8:53

city, at that time, had no idea

8:57

that there had once been vast

8:57

forest. And so it's a case where

9:01

I think we really forgot what

9:01

was there in the past and the

9:04

values that were lost. And the

9:04

ivory-billed, I think is an

9:08

excellent example of that. So

9:08

thank you for bringing that up.

9:12

And then the

9:12

migratory birds, of course, were

9:16

even though some of them or most

9:16

of them may not have wound up on

9:20

federal list of threatened or

9:20

endangered, they all plummeted

9:24

dramatically.

9:26

Yeah, I would say

9:26

that the group of species that

9:29

were most greatly affected were

9:29

migratory birds, the waterfowl,

9:33

the geese, the wading birds, all

9:33

of those species, all of those

9:37

creatures that really depended

9:37

on wetlands for food and for

9:41

restover stops and breeding

9:41

spots. They were really the most

9:45

affected.

9:47

Yeah, I remember

9:47

when I signed on with the US

9:49

Fish and Wildlife Service back

9:49

in 1999, seems to me they gave

9:54

us a historical book -- I think

9:54

it was called Flyways. And it

9:58

was all about the migratory bird

9:58

and wetland as habitats,

10:05

concerns that really kicked off

10:05

the need for and the development

10:10

of the US Fish and Wildlife

10:10

Service, in particular, the

10:14

Office of Migratory Birds and

10:14

the National Wildlife Refuge

10:18

System where I worked. These

10:18

were originally, basically all

10:22

about migratory bird

10:22

conservation. And as you alluded

10:26

to it with the alligator, but

10:26

definitely with migratory birds

10:30

as well, you know, it was both

10:30

hunting. But then as the decades

10:34

went by, the early decades of

10:34

the 20th century, it was much

10:37

more so a matter of that habitat

10:37

loss.

10:41

Yeah, and I think

10:41

that recognizing as the habitat

10:44

loss is accrued, recognizing

10:44

that there were fewer birds,

10:50

fewer waterfowl, the group that

10:50

really recognized that were

10:53

hunters and sportsmen, at that

10:53

time, and really put a lot of

10:57

pressure to figure out a way to

10:57

conserve habitat. And the

11:01

initial ways that people tried

11:01

to do that were setting aside

11:03

wetland refuges. That was, at a

11:03

time when we really didn't think

11:08

about regulating private

11:08

property. We were hoping that we

11:12

could just set aside refuges for

11:12

waterfowl, ducks and geese and

11:16

such. But that wasn't really

11:16

enough, because the magnitude of

11:19

wetlands destruction was so

11:19

great that just having little

11:23

refuges here and there, you

11:23

know, weren't enough. It's

11:25

certainly an important system.

11:25

Don't get me wrong, but it just

11:29

wasn't enough to really, you

11:29

know, conserve our waterfall

11:32

into the future.

11:33

Absolutely not. As

11:33

long as the overriding domestic

11:36

policy goal is GDP growth, the

11:36

establishment of some refuges

11:40

here and there is not going to

11:40

cut it, and even those refuges

11:43

are going to be compromised at

11:43

some point. But you know, that's

11:46

kind of our our bag at CASSE.

11:46

But you know, even a fairly

11:51

seasoned wildlife ecologist like

11:51

myself -- I worked as a

11:55

biologist and about five states

11:55

before reading your book -- but

11:58

even I was astounded at the

11:58

magnitude of loss you described.

12:02

And as I recall, some of the

12:02

states that really stood out to

12:06

me at least were Indiana,

12:06

Illinois, and Iowa, the

12:10

contiguous eyes, as it were.

12:12

Yeah.

12:13

What might we have

12:13

seen, Ann, say, back in the

12:16

1860s, if we'd been able to fly

12:16

over those half 1000 miles from,

12:20

say, Fort Wayne out to Des Moines?

12:23

Yeah, that was

12:23

another remarkable thing to

12:25

discover, which was the wetlands

12:25

in that region were vast inland

12:30

marshes. And there were rivers

12:30

that meandered, you know, big

12:34

broad meanders and flooded

12:34

regularly into these grassland,

12:38

floodplains, probably with

12:38

pockets of forest and cops as

12:42

well. And so there were these

12:42

incredibly rich wetland

12:46

landscapes that were habitat for

12:46

all sorts of wild animals and

12:50

birds. But anyway, yeah, and

12:50

what happened, of course, is

12:54

this settlement moved west,

12:54

people started to drain those

12:58

wetlands for agriculture. So

12:58

what we have today is so

13:02

entirely different, you know, we

13:02

have the monoculture of corn

13:06

crops or soy beans in a place

13:06

that was once incredibly rich

13:10

with all sorts of consequences.

13:12

Yeah, that's why it

13:12

takes so much coffee to drive

13:15

across Illinois. Well, I want to

13:15

mention now, that discovering

13:21

the unknown landscape won awards

13:21

from the American Historical

13:25

Association and the American

13:25

Society for Environmental

13:29

History. That's quite a way to

13:29

kick off your career as a book

13:32

author, Ann!

13:34

I know. I was

13:34

truly honored to receive those

13:36

big national awards in my field

13:36

-- it was a total honor. One of

13:41

the other things I just wanted

13:41

to say is, in my books, I really

13:44

try to write to reach out to a

13:44

broader audience so that they're

13:48

not strictly academic or

13:48

argument-based, but that they

13:52

really explore through stories.

13:52

So I hope people enjoy reading

13:56

them and learn as they go.

13:56

That's kind of the way I like to

13:59

do it.

14:00

Absolutely, and

14:00

your next book was Kitchen

14:03

Literacy - How We Lost Knowledge

14:03

of Where Food Comes From and Why

14:08

We Need to Get it Back. But

14:08

actually, I think we need to

14:11

cook up a short non-commercial

14:11

break with James Lamont. Take it

14:16

away James!

14:22

Hello, listeners!

14:22

We hope you're enjoying the

14:24

show. If you enjoy learning, you

14:24

might be interested to know that

14:27

CASSE is seeking applicants for

14:27

our Spring Internship Program.

14:31

We seek students or recent

14:31

graduates with relevant

14:33

coursework and experience. Open

14:33

positions include accounting,

14:37

administration, communications,

14:37

editorial, economic modeling and

14:41

mathematics, economic policy,

14:41

environmental studies, IT,

14:45

nonprofit management, political

14:45

science, statistics, and video

14:49

production. The program is a

14:49

great career building

14:52

opportunity. In fact, we've

14:52

hired numerous past interns,

14:55

including our internship

14:55

coordinator, Elise. To apply,

14:58

email a resume to

14:58

[email protected]. If

15:02

you're a student, you can also

15:02

find CASSE at joinhandshake.com.

15:06

We'll be accepting applications

15:06

through the end of the year. And

15:09

now, back to the show.

15:11

Welcome back,

15:11

folks. We're talking with Ann

15:13

Vileisis. And we've talked about

15:13

her first book Discovering the

15:17

Unknown Landscape, all about

15:17

wetlands. And we introduced the

15:22

next book. And actually the

15:22

conversation, Ann, that we were

15:25

having right before the

15:25

non-commercial break was a great

15:29

segue because waterfowl, one of

15:29

the reasons that there was such

15:34

concern over the drop was they

15:34

weren't only wonderful to look

15:38

at, they were a key food for

15:38

many families, especially

15:42

families into the four main

15:42

flyways of the US. Was your book

15:46

on wetlands sort of a natural

15:46

way into the book about kitchen

15:51

Literacy?

15:52

Absolutely, Brian.

15:52

What happened is, when I was

15:55

researching my wetlands book, I

15:55

really had kind of an epiphany,

15:59

which was the tremendous impacts

15:59

of our food system, both

16:04

agriculture, and otherwise, on

16:04

wetlands and the environment in

16:08

general. And I just had a

16:08

feeling that people didn't get

16:12

that the food how foods are

16:12

produced have such a tremendous

16:15

impact. You know, we've already

16:15

discussed how the impact on

16:20

wetlands because of the

16:20

conversion of wetlands into

16:23

farmland. You've just described

16:23

sort of a another part of it,

16:27

which is that people depended on

16:27

some wild foods. And those wild

16:32

foods were actually subjected to

16:32

also overfishing or overhunting.

16:36

So that was another part of it.

16:36

And then as the food system

16:39

became industrialized, and we

16:39

had to grow more and more to

16:43

supply growing and growing

16:43

cities, we had to turn to new

16:47

technologies like pesticides and

16:47

herbicides that polluted the

16:52

water, and also to things like

16:52

industrial agriculture, which

16:56

have a lot of pollution. So I

16:56

just had a feeling that people

16:59

didn't get any of that. Because

16:59

when you go into the supermarket

17:02

to shop, you just end up seeing,

17:02

you know, all these familiar

17:06

products that have characters

17:06

like Tony the Tiger and Aunt

17:09

Jemima and such -- don't really

17:09

think about the real stories of

17:12

our food. So that's really what

17:12

inspired me to get into this

17:14

book to try to figure out how we

17:14

lost knowledge of those real

17:17

stories.

17:19

I'm glad you did.

17:19

And that book was ahead of the

17:22

time of, you know, a number of

17:22

other books that came out

17:24

subsequent to that. Let me share

17:24

a little hypothesis and see if

17:28

it fits with your findings. You

17:28

know, everybody talks about how

17:31

much better grandma's food was,

17:31

and surely it was good! My

17:36

Polish grandma was a heck of a

17:36

cook. But it strikes me that an

17:39

overlooked reason grandma's

17:39

cooking was so great was those

17:44

ingredients came fresh from the

17:44

farm and not from some

17:47

genetically modified

17:47

phosphate-filled factory field

17:51

or some hydroponic hang out in

17:51

the middle of Houston. Do you

17:55

think that was grandma's secret,

17:55

those homegrown ingredients?

17:58

Absolutely! I

17:58

think that was definitely one

18:01

part of it, Brian. I mean, we

18:01

all know the difference between

18:04

eating. Well, we don't all know,

18:04

but that there's a tremendous

18:06

difference between eating a

18:06

homegrown tomato, or one even

18:09

that you can get at a farmers

18:09

market versus the ones you get

18:12

in a supermarket. And that's

18:12

something that many people are

18:16

having more experience with as

18:16

the opportunities to eat more

18:22

local foods has actually

18:22

rebounded again more recently.

18:26

Not for everybody, but more and

18:26

more people are having that

18:29

opportunity. I think you're

18:29

totally right.

18:32

Well, that's one of

18:32

the few encouraging things that

18:34

there are received pockets

18:34

appearing here and there, where

18:38

the local production and

18:38

consumption of food is coming

18:43

back. And yeah, makes for some

18:43

better, better grub.

18:47

It's not only

18:47

taste, it's also, you know,

18:49

there is increasing research

18:49

about that local foods can be

18:53

more nutritious, you know, the

18:53

antioxidants are preserved

18:55

longer and such like that. So

18:55

there's more that's being

18:58

learned all the time about how

18:58

we can make our agriculture not

19:03

only taste better, and be more

19:03

nutritious, but also be more

19:06

sustainable. And that's

19:06

something actually that even

19:10

since I wrote my book, I think

19:10

there's more attention with the

19:13

climate crisis into looking at

19:13

how can we manage our soils to

19:17

be more productive, more

19:17

sequestering of carbon, even at

19:21

the same time as we're making

19:21

our foods more nutritious. So I

19:25

think getting people to think

19:25

about where their foods come

19:27

from, and that connection helps

19:27

to lead us to all these other

19:31

good things.

19:32

Well, going back

19:32

long before grandma, even what

19:35

were some of the foodstuffs that

19:35

surprised you from the 1800s?

19:41

Well, one of the

19:41

things that really surprised me

19:44

more than anything, I think

19:44

perhaps, is just how -- just the

19:47

intimacy that people had with

19:47

the animals that became the

19:51

meats that they would eat. If

19:51

you think about it, most people

19:55

at that time were eating animals

19:55

that either came from their own

19:58

backyards or from farms that

19:58

were nearby. So the kind of

20:02

knowledge they had about animals

20:02

was very different, you know.

20:07

They wanted to know where the

20:07

animal came from that was

20:10

treated well, the kinds of food

20:10

it ate, or there might be

20:13

different recipes for young

20:13

animals, or male or female, or

20:17

animals of different ages. So I

20:17

found that to be really

20:20

interesting.

20:22

Yeah, that is so

20:22

much nuance in that.

20:25

Also, it really

20:25

struck me the tremendous amount

20:27

of knowledge that people had to

20:27

have in order to raise their own

20:31

food and orchestrate their

20:31

eating. That was really

20:34

fascinating to me -- when I

20:34

tried to, you know, consider it

20:37

in contrast to the way we think

20:37

about foods today, you know,

20:40

just run to the supermarket, run

20:40

to a restaurant -- most people

20:43

don't have that degree of

20:43

knowledge. That knowledge is

20:46

really connects us to the larger

20:46

natural world and helps us to

20:50

understand things like limits

20:50

and constraints as well as

20:55

possibilities, so it was

20:55

interesting to think about those

20:58

things.

20:59

That's a really

20:59

good point. Well, I think steady

21:01

staters have a good sense of how

21:01

we lost the knowledge of where

21:06

food comes from. But were there

21:06

any surprises you stumbled upon?

21:10

Let's see pertaining to supply

21:10

genes, or labeling, or even the

21:16

changes in agricultural

21:16

geography over these decades of

21:20

global heating?

21:23

Well, one thing

21:23

that's, of course, very

21:26

interesting and often commented

21:26

upon is just how much the

21:29

distance between a farms and

21:29

plates have increased through

21:33

time, you know, that food is

21:33

just come from farther and

21:36

farther away. And that's

21:36

something I think we generally

21:40

know. But, you know, it's clear

21:40

that that's part of the

21:43

disconnect, and also part of

21:43

what creates problems with

21:46

supply chains requiring more

21:46

fuel, more steps along the way,

21:50

more packaging, more need for

21:50

advertising and communication

21:55

that can be -- perhaps, you know

21:55

-- not true. Another thing that

22:00

I found really fascinating is

22:00

that at the time that America's

22:04

food system was industrializing,

22:04

people really did not like those

22:09

changes. You know, I think we've

22:09

been told that, oh, everybody

22:13

wanted convenience foods.

22:13

Convenience is the best thing

22:17

that any of us could want in

22:17

food. But really to go back and

22:21

study the history of the food

22:21

system, I learned that people

22:25

resisted those changes. And we

22:25

really needed advertising to

22:29

convince us of the new criteria,

22:29

that should be regarded as

22:34

favorable. And that was a really

22:34

interesting thing to trace how

22:39

-- what we thought was important

22:39

about food change through time,

22:42

and how much the advertising

22:42

industry helped to shape that.

22:47

That is really an

22:47

important part of the whole

22:49

picture, isn't it? And you had

22:49

-- was it one chapter that was

22:54

pretty much devoted to that?

22:57

Yeah, it was

22:57

really interesting, because the

22:59

food system, basically the

22:59

industrialized food system was

23:02

coming to age, basically, at the

23:02

same time that advertising was

23:06

becoming a big part of American

23:06

culture in the early part of the

23:09

20th century. So both were kind

23:09

of new and cutting their teeth

23:13

at the same time. So if you can

23:13

imagine living in a world where

23:17

you don't have advertising, and

23:17

then all of a sudden you have

23:20

it, that kind of promotional

23:20

writing, promotional images, and

23:24

all those things, people had to

23:24

learn how to digest it, so to

23:29

speak -- pardon the pun. Because

23:29

they weren't used to promotional

23:33

writing. And so I think that was

23:33

a very interesting thing to go

23:38

back and learn about and, you

23:38

know, it helps us to reflect on

23:41

our own understanding right now

23:41

of the world. You know, why do

23:45

we think that calories are so

23:45

important, as opposed to where

23:49

food comes from? Or why do we

23:49

think, you know, one thing or

23:52

another is more important?

23:52

Convenience is more important

23:55

than stewardship of the land

23:55

that the food comes from, or the

23:58

treatment of workers were that

23:58

are growing the food? So these

24:01

are all things that I found

24:01

really interesting to study

24:04

through time.

24:06

Alright, let's go

24:06

to your most recent book,

24:09

Abalone - The Remarkable History

24:09

and Uncertain Future of

24:13

California's Iconic Shellfish.

24:13

And, for starters, what is

24:18

Abalone?

24:19

So, an abalone is

24:19

a really unique shellfish, a

24:23

mollusk. It grows and lives all

24:23

around the world. But in the

24:27

North America, it's was

24:27

predominantly an animal that

24:30

lived on the West Coast in

24:30

California and became hugely

24:34

important for cultural reasons,

24:34

because it has a brilliant

24:37

iridescent shell that is just

24:37

stunning and captivating, as

24:42

well as a big meaty foot that

24:42

people loved as a seafood. As

24:47

you might imagine, because this

24:47

animal was so loved and

24:51

cherished -- it was sort of

24:51

cherished and loved, but because

24:54

it was loved for ways we could

24:54

use it -- over time it really

24:59

hit some hard times and

24:59

ultimately has become very

25:03

imperiled.

25:05

Yeah, kind of got

25:05

loved to death. And you

25:08

mentioned the shell and they are

25:08

just profoundly gorgeous. And it

25:13

strikes me the family is

25:13

haliotidae maybe some of the

25:18

circular patterns in those

25:18

shells like little halos. You

25:22

think that's the origin of that,

25:22

and the genus is haliotis, I

25:26

guess.

25:27

Yeah, it actually,

25:27

haliotis actually means "sea

25:30

ear." And it came from -- it was

25:30

named by Aristotle, because the

25:35

abalone of the Mediterranean are

25:35

smaller and sort of the size and

25:39

shape of a human ear. So that's

25:39

where it comes from -- sea ear,

25:44

you know. I came to writing

25:44

about abalone in some ways, it

25:48

was the thread went from

25:48

wetlands, where I actually

25:51

learned initially about

25:51

shellfish in estuaries that were

25:55

destroyed. When wetlands were

25:55

destroyed, I became interested

25:58

in that food environment

25:58

connection there, wrote about

26:01

that connection in Kitchen

26:01

Literacy. But I realized in

26:05

Kitchen Literacy that animals

26:05

that are wild foods are really

26:09

particularly vulnerable for that

26:09

reason -- that we can love them

26:13

to death. And so to get back to

26:13

your earlier question, this is

26:16

now actually an endangered

26:16

species too, several of them are

26:19

endangered species. There are

26:19

seven species on the West Coast.

26:23

Right. Well, in

26:23

those uses that were one of the

26:27

reasons abalone was loved to

26:27

death, what would you say is the

26:30

most prominent uses? Food,

26:30

tools, ornaments?

26:35

Well, through time, you know, indigenous people are thought to have come

26:37

to the West Coast at least 13-

26:42

to 15,000 years ago. And so, at

26:42

least 6,000 years ago, or more

26:46

they would, the shells were used

26:46

as tools and ornaments and for

26:50

ceremonial purposes -- really a

26:50

wonderful cultural use of an

26:55

animal and material in ways that

26:55

we can barely, you know,

26:59

imagine. It was really

26:59

interesting to learn about that.

27:02

But they were also used for

27:02

subsistence, and they became one

27:07

of the West Coast first global

27:07

commodities in the mid-19th

27:11

century, at the time of the Gold

27:11

Rush. When immigrants from Asia

27:15

came over across the Pacific and

27:15

discovered so many abundant

27:20

abalone, it kickstarted a global

27:20

trade for this animal, and its

27:25

meat and shells.

27:27

Did you find

27:27

evidence that it was essentially

27:30

a form of proto money like

27:30

wampum in the for the Eastern

27:34

tribes, prior to the European

27:34

settlement out there?

27:38

Yeah, you know,

27:38

it's very interesting that you

27:41

asked that question. Because

27:41

there's a lot of interesting

27:44

writing about shell money, and

27:44

abalone was definitely used for

27:50

exchange, but it had a special

27:50

and different kind of meaning

27:53

because of that brilliant,

27:53

unique iridescence. And the fact

27:58

that it was actually probably

27:58

somewhat rare of an animal at

28:02

different times through history.

28:02

It was cherished and held in

28:05

very high esteem. And so rather

28:05

than just using it as like, you

28:09

know, currency, it had a deeper

28:09

meaning. It was used, for

28:13

example, to resolve big

28:13

conflicts or was used to

28:17

symbolize larger meanings in a

28:17

gift exchange. So it's a little

28:22

bit different, I think, than just currency.

28:25

Right. Well, I'm

28:25

dying to ask you, Ann, what's

28:28

your next book about?

28:30

Oh, my gosh,

28:30

brand. I don't have a good

28:32

answer for that yet, because I'm

28:32

still out and about talking

28:36

about my Abalone book and

28:36

getting it out into the world.

28:39

But I do have some ideas. I'm

28:39

interested in maybe doing some

28:43

writing about the salmon of the

28:43

Pacific Northwest, which is

28:46

where I live and that have a

28:46

similar story to abalone in

28:49

terms of being an animal that is

28:49

very cherished and cared about

28:54

and yet is really facing

28:54

difficult times. I find myself

28:57

being fascinated to write and

28:57

study about wildlife and the

29:02

challenges we have in trying to

29:02

help conserve these animals and

29:06

our kindred creatures into the

29:06

future, especially in the face

29:10

of climate crisis challenges.

29:13

What about sort of

29:13

some of the ancient and -- well

29:17

not ancient entirely, I mean,

29:17

some of the Pacific Northwest

29:21

tribes still have a bit of a

29:21

Potlatch culture and so on that

29:25

interface with food production

29:25

and distribution is -- maybe not

29:30

really -- the highlight of

29:30

Potlatch culture, but you take

29:33

an interest in sort of the the

29:33

cultural aspects of food

29:37

production in the Northwest.

29:39

You know, I have

29:39

not researched that extensively

29:42

yet myself, but I do know we

29:42

have a pretty vibrant and

29:47

growing interest, I think, on

29:47

the West Coast in general,

29:50

understanding the need to

29:50

restore indigenous food systems

29:53

as a way of helping to restore

29:53

cultural justice and such things

29:58

with tribal nations. So, I think

29:58

those are things that are very

30:02

interesting, and I look forward

30:02

to learning more about them.

30:06

Well, whatever that

30:06

next book is about, I'm really

30:08

looking forward to it. And Ann,

30:08

it's been a great pleasure

30:11

talking with you today, and

30:11

we'll look forward to having you

30:14

back on the show for a deeper

30:14

dive into one or two or three or

30:18

four of these books.

30:21

Thank you so much,

30:21

Brian. It would be fun to talk

30:23

more with you about, you know,

30:23

the steady stater perspective on

30:27

some of these stories that I've

30:27

written about. So thanks so much

30:30

for the opportunity to talk with you today.

30:49

Well folks, that

30:49

about wraps 'er up. We've been

30:51

talking with Ann Vileisis,

30:51

environmental historian and

30:55

impeccable author. If you asked

30:55

me, she set the standard for

30:59

crystally clear, flawlessly

30:59

logical, policy-relevant and yet

31:04

entertaining environmental

31:04

non-fiction. Go get one of her

31:08

books. I'm going to recommend,

31:08

Discovering the Unknown

31:11

Landscape to start with, and I'm

31:11

guessing you want to read the

31:14

other two as well. I'm Brian

31:14

Czech, and you've been listening

31:17

to The Steady Stater podcast.

31:17

See you next time!