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0:45

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1:29

And today we are speaking with

1:32

Pete Steinberg. Pete has more than

1:34

20 years of experience as an

1:36

elite rugby coach. Very few people

1:38

can say that coaching the USA

1:40

women's rugby team at two World

1:42

Cups and the Rio Olympics. And

1:45

he's also president of Innovative Thought, a

1:48

business consultancy focused on leadership

1:50

and organizational development and has

1:53

extensive experience consulting with top

1:55

Fortune 500 professionals.

1:58

Pete, welcome. Thank you. to

2:00

be here. How do you help

2:02

executives and I kind of jumping into your

2:04

work with executives, but at some point I

2:06

still want to talk about your work as

2:08

a coach. But let's start off. One of

2:10

the most important things we do as leaders

2:12

is we want to contribute. And

2:15

so my first question to you

2:17

is how do you help executives

2:19

deliver the best performance they're capable

2:21

of? Kind of a broad question

2:23

and you can take it where you think will

2:25

be most valuable for our listeners.

2:27

Yeah, I mean I would

2:29

say that if

2:32

you said what was the number one

2:34

thing that I

2:37

help executives do, I think

2:39

it's around the concept

2:41

of intentionality. So

2:43

one of the challenges that we

2:45

have in the modern world is we don't have time.

2:47

And I think

2:49

that's been accelerated post COVID when

2:52

everything's virtual and we have meetings all

2:55

day. And so executives actually don't have

2:57

time to stop and think.

3:00

And so things tend to become lots

3:02

of things become implicit. So the way

3:04

they leave becomes implicit, just happens. The

3:07

way they run their teams become

3:09

implicit, that just happens. And so

3:11

helping executives be really intentional about

3:14

how they spend their time is

3:17

probably the fundamentals of the way that

3:19

I work with my clients. Intentional.

3:22

So if we dig a little bit deeper

3:24

for someone who has a packed

3:27

schedule and they have

3:29

so many responsibilities that they struggle

3:32

to sleep at night because of

3:34

all that, what would be some

3:36

of the first steps you will take with them,

3:38

working with them to help them be more intentional?

3:41

Well, you know, it's funny as an executive

3:43

coach when I come in and work with

3:45

senior executives, the hardest thing is actually to

3:47

find time on their calendar for them to

3:49

meet with me. So it's, you

3:51

know, they're like, oh, I need help. And when I,

3:53

when can we meet? And they'll say, oh, four months

3:55

from now, I have some time on my calendar. And

3:58

I said, this isn't going to work. So. We

4:00

actually, normally the very first

4:03

thing I have to do is we have to just create

4:05

time for them, partly to meet with

4:07

me, but also for them just to think.

4:09

And so, there's a couple

4:11

of strategies that we take getting

4:13

into finding time. So,

4:15

one is we take a shotgun to their

4:17

calendar. So, that we start on Monday and

4:20

we stop and we look at the week and

4:22

we say, which of the meetings do

4:25

you have to be in? Right?

4:27

These are meetings that you don't have control

4:29

of. Often it's the bus or it's corporate

4:31

meetings or those stay on the calendar. And

4:33

that's normally like a third of your time

4:36

is normally things you don't have control over.

4:38

Then the other two terms, you actually have

4:40

control over. And so, the

4:42

question becomes, and this

4:44

is the challenge that we have. And

4:47

I think as humans, we just have

4:49

really strange views of time. So, if

4:53

someone comes to me and says, oh,

4:55

I want to sell you something. I'm a vendor. And

4:58

they say, can you meet next week? And I'll say,

5:00

oh no, my calendar's booked next week. And

5:03

they'll say, what about next month? And I'll say, oh yeah, I

5:05

have time next month. But actually,

5:07

the week before that time, my calendar

5:09

will be booked. My calendar is always

5:11

booked. And so, we have this

5:13

weird sense of time. So, you go through, on

5:15

Monday, you go through the calendar and you say,

5:18

which of these meetings am I required to

5:20

be in? And which of

5:23

these meetings do I absolutely have to be

5:25

in? In other words, if I am not

5:27

in this meeting, it can fail. And

5:30

then the rest, it becomes, all right, do

5:33

I have to be in those other

5:35

meetings? And actually, when you list it

5:37

as, if I'm not in the meeting, the

5:39

meeting fails. There aren't that many. There aren't that

5:42

many of those meetings. Like, other people can run

5:44

them. Often, you're in the meeting because of your

5:46

position. I worked with a client,

5:49

C-suite executive on a Fortune 500 company.

5:53

And I asked him, and I'd

5:56

worked with him about a decade before as a coaching client. And

5:58

he was really good at managing. is time

6:00

and I said, how do you decide if you're going

6:02

to be in the meeting? And he said,

6:04

I'm only in meetings that move

6:06

the stock price. If

6:10

the meeting is not a discussion that's going to

6:12

move the stock

6:14

price, I am not in that meeting. And I've taken

6:16

that away with me and I've asked my clients at

6:20

the top level, how

6:22

important is this? How much do you

6:24

value your time? Are you

6:27

in the meeting to make it 2% better? To make

6:29

an idea that worth your time to make it

6:31

2% better? And so that's the

6:33

first thing we do is we find time

6:35

in their calendar by being really ruthless about

6:38

how they spend their time. My immediate

6:40

thought on this example about stock prices, it

6:42

limits you to short term thinking. You're not

6:45

thinking that daily 10, 20, 30 years into

6:47

the future, even 100 years into

6:50

the future and thinking how do you make

6:52

sure that your company still drives them?

6:54

What are your thoughts? I

6:57

would say that first

6:59

of all, I think that's a good

7:01

observation. But remember what I'm trying to do is

7:03

just find time for them this

7:06

week to meet. And so

7:08

I agree, it's completely like the

7:10

shotgun to the calendar is completely short

7:12

term. It is not a solution to

7:15

the problem, it's a mitigation to

7:17

the problem. And the long

7:19

term solution to the problem is a

7:21

really robust understanding about how

7:23

the leader wants to lead and

7:26

what they want to accomplish and therefore where they

7:28

should spend their time. So the

7:30

long term takes time, the short term is,

7:32

is it going to move the stock price?

7:34

So I'm with you on that. I think

7:36

that's a great observation that it's short term,

7:38

but that's what it's designed to do. I

7:41

was not referring to your approach, shotgun

7:43

approach. Totally agree with that. For you

7:45

to even find time to work with

7:47

a client, you need to use it

7:49

to create time because some calendars are

7:51

fully booked. I was just referring to

7:53

that statement from one of your clients,

7:55

the danger of that view. Yeah, it's

7:58

interesting. interesting

8:00

because, sorry, just to follow up on that,

8:02

because when I work with CEOs

8:05

of publicly traded companies, if

8:09

business is good, they can look at

8:11

the long term. If business

8:13

is bad, they tend to work out

8:15

how to like, they tend to work quarter to quarter.

8:18

And that is a, I

8:20

think that's a systematic,

8:23

a systemic, excuse me, issue

8:26

that exists, particularly in the

8:28

US. I think it's less of

8:30

a challenge in some other

8:33

places of the world, which

8:35

is there's a lot of pressure

8:38

in the short term for those

8:40

publicly traded companies, and particularly for the CEOs

8:42

that feel responsible for that stock price. So

8:46

now that you created some space and

8:48

client calendar, then you can do deep

8:50

work with them. And last

8:52

to start, if you're in agreement with

8:54

that, is the principles. Because

8:56

you mentioned in your book that you

8:58

recently wrote that in your work as

9:01

a rugby coach, you realize that the

9:03

team needs principles that will guide the

9:05

kind of move they choose to initiate

9:07

and how they respond effectively to attacks

9:09

from the other side. So maybe we

9:12

can take a step back and start

9:14

with your career, kind of go to

9:16

your time of being a coach. And

9:18

how did you develop those principles specifically

9:20

for your team's competing? And

9:22

can you list and explain the principles? Yeah,

9:25

I mean, I think that's so first of all, thank you for

9:27

reading the book. I appreciate you

9:29

reading the book. Yeah,

9:32

so you know, I coached Penn State, the

9:35

Penn State women's rugby team for 19 years.

9:38

And we won 10 national

9:40

championships, I coached a couple of men's teams,

9:42

the national championships too, in that time. And

9:45

then from 2011 to 2017, I was the

9:49

head coach of the US women's 15th team, and

9:51

also got a chance, I coached at two World

9:53

Cups and got a chance to coach at the

9:55

Rio Olympics. And, you know, this is actually interesting, before

9:57

I get a principles, I'm going to go back to time.

10:00

One of the things that I think coaching

10:03

at an elite level teaches you

10:05

is the value of time. When

10:08

we were leading up to the 2017 World

10:11

Cup, and

10:13

those games were happening in August,

10:15

we played Canada

10:19

in April. And national teams

10:21

come together for events, and then they disappear.

10:23

So we played Canada in April, we

10:25

played them in San Diego, and then we

10:28

had about six weeks together before we went

10:30

to the World Cup. And we sat down

10:32

and we found something out when we played

10:34

Canada, which is we're too high in contact.

10:37

So in all contact sports, the low person

10:39

wins. It's physics. If I'm lower than

10:41

you, I can knock you back. If you're higher than me,

10:43

you don't have as much power. So we worked out we're

10:45

a little bit too high in our contact. And

10:48

we looked at our schedule and worked

10:50

out in that six weeks, we had 27 minutes

10:52

that we could spare to work on

10:54

this issue. And

10:56

that's how detailed the time

10:58

that you have. So when you're

11:00

at the elite, sorry, Chris. To

11:03

interrupt just for listening to school and not

11:05

following this particular game, could you

11:07

just explain the issue so that they can

11:09

then have the context to understand the system?

11:12

Absolutely. Absolutely. So in rugby as a

11:14

contact sport, it's a full tackle sport.

11:17

So I have to tackle someone with the

11:19

ball. And if they

11:21

get lower than me with the ball, I can't

11:23

generate power and they knock me back. And

11:26

if I get lower than them when I tackle them,

11:28

I knock them back. So whether you're the ball carrier

11:30

or the tackler, you want to be lower. And

11:33

that's a technical issue that takes probably

11:35

a lot of reps to change from

11:37

an elite athlete. And so

11:39

that was like you down to the minute,

11:41

we have a certain amount of time that

11:43

we have on the field, we have

11:46

more time and more flexibility in the meeting

11:48

room and with video because it's not as

11:50

physically taxing, although you have to be careful

11:52

of the mental burnout. And so

11:55

on the field, we had 27 minutes before

11:57

we played our first game. That was it. And

11:59

it was broken. up into like minute like eight

12:01

minutes here and seven minutes there. So

12:03

that's one of the things that taught me

12:06

the value of time. It's like when

12:08

you're going to play England and

12:11

you've got two practice sessions before

12:13

you play England, you have to be

12:15

really intentional about how you

12:17

use that time and you have to make

12:19

choices and those choices get

12:22

driven by your principles and

12:24

your principles are driven by how do you

12:26

want to play the game? Like in every

12:28

game, there is both,

12:30

there is the way that other people play

12:32

it and the way that you want to

12:34

play it and you should spend your time

12:38

focusing on the things that help you play

12:40

in the way that you play the game.

12:43

Right. And so an exact, very simple example

12:45

in rugby, and I'll try and do it

12:47

for the non rugby people is that you

12:50

have two choices in rugby. You can either

12:52

go around the defense or you can go

12:54

through the defense. If you go

12:56

around the fence, you do it with passing. You're

12:58

not allowed to pass forward. So you have to

13:00

pass backwards. So you want to pass in work.

13:02

If you want to go through the

13:05

defense, you go through with power. And

13:08

so if you decide that you want

13:10

to go through the defense and go

13:12

with power, you spend less time focusing

13:14

on passing. If you want

13:16

to go around the defense, that's your

13:18

strategy. Then you spend less time on

13:20

power and going through contact. And

13:22

so when you have those principles about how

13:24

you want to play, they

13:27

inform what you do on

13:29

the practice field. And it is exactly

13:31

the same as a leader. Not

13:34

all leaders are different. They have

13:36

different values that they bring.

13:38

They have different purpose, different

13:41

meaningful things that mean to them. They

13:43

want to do different things in their

13:45

roles. And so they need

13:47

to build principles about

13:50

where they, what, where they want to spend

13:52

their time based on how they want to

13:54

win in their role. And

13:56

so one of the challenges that we have is

13:58

that we generally we're very. generic. You

14:02

know, an example would be,

14:04

should every leader have weekly

14:07

one on ones with their team? Now,

14:10

the answer is no, not

14:12

every leader should have weekly one on ones with their

14:14

team. It depends on how they want to

14:17

lead. Some leaders who feel like

14:19

that connection is really important to them, right,

14:22

and having that connection is

14:24

part of their leadership principles. Yes, they should

14:26

have one on ones. For others, they want

14:28

to lead their team differently. They shouldn't have

14:30

one on ones with their team. Having one

14:32

on ones with your team every week, maybe

14:35

it's every month, maybe you don't have one on

14:37

ones. I recently worked with a leader where the

14:39

outcome was she told her team, we're not going

14:42

to have one on ones, but I will always

14:44

be available for. So instead

14:46

of it being a leader driven interaction,

14:48

it's now a team member driven

14:50

interaction. And that was created that

14:53

approach of using that time was

14:55

created based on how she wanted

14:57

to lead. And

14:59

so principles in rugby lead

15:01

to how you manage your time in practice.

15:05

Principles as a leader lead

15:07

to how you manage your time in your calendar.

15:10

Ethan, do you remember how did you

15:12

develop those principles for your team when

15:15

you were coaching them? Yeah,

15:17

so it's a great

15:19

question. And there's probably

15:24

three inputs that go into that question.

15:27

So one is, what

15:30

is the game that's being played right now

15:32

in your context? So when I coach Penn

15:34

State women's rugby, that

15:37

was a different game than when I coach the

15:39

Eagles, right? The skill level is

15:41

different, the level of athleticism is different. So

15:43

part is like, what is the game that's

15:45

currently being played? The second

15:47

thing is, what are the strengths that

15:50

my team can bring to the tables

15:52

that can help us win within

15:55

the game that's currently being played? It's contextual.

15:58

And the third thing is what am I believed around

16:02

the game of rugby that I believe are true.

16:05

Like there are things that I just have

16:07

beliefs about the way I think the game

16:09

works. And so if you add the

16:11

context of how the game is being played, the

16:13

strengths that your team brings to the

16:15

table and the way you

16:17

think the game works as a coach, those

16:20

are the three things that can lead to

16:22

the principles that are lead to you performing

16:25

at your best. And do you

16:27

remember the principles, or at

16:29

least some of them that you came up with,

16:31

if it's not confidential? So I

16:33

don't think it's confidential, but it was just a long

16:35

time ago. But there

16:37

are some, yeah, so I think the

16:39

sort of principles that we

16:41

would have is if

16:44

there was a turnover, so if we won the

16:47

ball from the other team, we

16:49

would pass the ball twice, right?

16:52

So it's a very, like if this thing happens, this

16:55

is what we're gonna do. And that

16:57

is because we were, like the teams I

16:59

coached was fast, they were

17:01

skillful, and because of the way the

17:03

game works, the people

17:05

tend to be focused around the ball,

17:08

so if you can move the ball away, there'll

17:11

be space for you to find. So that would

17:13

be an example of a principle.

17:16

But other principles could be, we

17:19

wanna avoid the contact, or we wanna

17:21

play in the opposition half, which means

17:24

that we might kick. So

17:26

in rugby, any player can pass, run,

17:28

or kick, and so you can

17:31

kick at any time. So you might say, we wanna

17:33

play in the opposition half. And

17:35

we say, okay, we're gonna play

17:37

in the opposition half, which means that

17:39

we're gonna look for more opportunities to

17:41

kick than, you

17:43

know, a different principle would be, we wanna keep the ball

17:46

in our hands, because we think that

17:48

doing that gives us a better chance to score. And

17:50

do you feel that it may be exposing

17:53

you to other team that you're competing with,

17:55

knowing what you're going to do in a

17:57

particular situation, if they take the time to

17:59

study you? Well. I think that's right. I

18:01

mean, it's a great question. And

18:03

so I think that these principles

18:05

are things that are a bit

18:07

dynamic, right? So you can

18:09

change them from game to game and

18:11

they should evolve. Some of them tend

18:13

to be more static, right?

18:16

They tend to be like, hey, I think this is

18:18

always gonna be true for us, but

18:20

you definitely want to be, and by the

18:22

way, principles are different, are

18:24

sort of different than tactics, right?

18:26

So this idea of, you

18:31

know, the idea of we want to play in

18:33

the opposition half, how we, that's sort of like

18:36

the big principle. How we do that, like

18:39

we should have lost different ways, right?

18:42

We could set up that situation to kick in lots

18:44

of different ways, but the end game is we want

18:46

to play in the opposition half, right?

18:49

And so I think

18:51

that that's a different sort of,

18:53

you know, sort of like strategic principles and

18:55

tactics so that

18:57

we can change our tactics so the teams that watch us don't

18:59

always know what we're doing, but our

19:01

principle, what we're trying to accomplish is still

19:04

the same. So now let's take

19:06

it to the business world and how would

19:08

you work with someone to help them figure

19:10

out the principles they should follow? Or they

19:13

currently maybe already have, but they're not realizing

19:15

they have. Yeah, I think that's actually

19:17

a really important point, Chris, is that many

19:19

people have, in fact, everyone has principles. The

19:22

first thing I do when I work with a client is I

19:24

go and talk to their team and

19:26

I say, hey, I mean, I don't use the words, what

19:29

are the principles? But I might say, hey, how does this

19:31

person lead? And normally I can get three or four things

19:33

that they do all the time, right? But

19:35

it's implicit. So that's actually an important feedback

19:37

loop. What I would

19:39

say is, the way I do it

19:41

is I use something called the authentic leadership model, which is in the

19:43

book, which starts with

19:46

purpose. So it starts

19:48

with like, what really fills your emotional

19:50

tank? What's the impact that you're trying

19:53

to make generally? That is not role

19:55

specific. It's not

19:57

job specific. I think we could have a long discussion. I

20:00

have a colleague that does a lot of

20:02

work in purpose about where the purpose is

20:04

fixed or whether it evolves or whether

20:07

it changes. But you

20:09

start with, for me, fundamentally,

20:11

what... And I feel like

20:13

it's at work. At

20:16

work, what really fills your emotional time? What's important

20:19

for you when you look back at your career

20:21

to say, this is what I did? And

20:24

often it's things like developing teams,

20:26

developing individuals, solving difficult problems, those

20:28

are the things that we get

20:30

to when we talk about purpose.

20:34

And then we talk about, okay, so if that's your

20:36

purpose, now we get job specific and we say, all

20:39

right, there's

20:41

four more parts that are really

20:43

job specific. So one is, what's

20:45

the role expectation that the organization

20:47

has? This isn't the job description.

20:50

It's like, what

20:52

is your boss or the leadership expect you

20:54

to do? Or if you're the CEO of

20:56

the board, then

20:58

it becomes, what

21:01

do you want to accomplish? What's your vision?

21:03

Like, what are you trying to fulfill in this role? And

21:07

those things can be purpose plus

21:09

role expectation plus vision can

21:12

kind of get you to like some of

21:14

the principles. But I think

21:16

it's kind of insufficient. It's sort of a shortcut. If I

21:18

wanted to do a shortcut, I would do that. But

21:21

I think there are two things that make this more

21:23

authentic, which is one, what's the value

21:25

that you provide in this role? And

21:27

this is actually a really interesting one, because

21:29

for many people, the value that they provide

21:31

in this role is different than the value

21:33

they provide in the role before. Right?

21:36

Like, actually, it's like, you know, it could be

21:38

very different. So what's the value that you provide

21:40

in the role? And then what are your beliefs

21:42

around leadership? And the value

21:44

that you provide and your beliefs in leadership

21:47

can help you get your

21:49

principles about where you spend

21:51

your time, so your priorities,

21:53

but also they become how you

21:55

want to lead. So your principles of

21:57

leadership. And so there's two sort of principles.

22:00

that come out of the leadership model. One

22:02

is your priorities and one is your leadership

22:04

principles. And both of those come out of

22:07

those five different areas. And it's not

22:09

linear, it's kind of iterative, like they

22:12

interact with each other. And

22:14

so that's why it can be a little bit, it's

22:17

a system that kind of interacts and works together. What

22:19

would be some examples of principles as

22:21

it relates to priorities? So

22:24

priorities are actually often

22:26

the easiest ones to

22:29

get after for leaders, because

22:32

they're mostly business driven. They

22:35

can be, and

22:38

they are a little bit different than

22:42

your goals, right? So your priorities are

22:44

different, because if you're a leader, you have a

22:46

team that's getting off to your goals. So the

22:48

priorities are really, where do I have the biggest

22:50

impact? Where should I be spending my team, my

22:52

time, that has the

22:54

biggest impact as we try and

22:56

meet these goals, myself as

22:58

a leader and my team? So those

23:00

things could be, it could be very

23:03

tangible, like

23:07

business metrics, like growth, profitability.

23:10

I don't like to have those in

23:12

there, because I think those are given, and

23:15

those are normally fit in the

23:17

role expectations. But it's often things

23:20

like, so the priorities will often

23:22

be things like, enhancing

23:25

client relationships, right?

23:27

So a priority is, I worked

23:30

with the CEO of a global

23:33

professional services firm, just

23:36

was promoted, and his three priorities

23:38

were, areas

23:40

of focus were engage

23:43

with partners to help

23:46

them drive their effectiveness, be

23:48

out in the market, right? To

23:50

build the brand of the business, and

23:52

manage the board. And

23:55

he said those were the three things that were most

23:57

important to him. And what was interesting is

23:59

when I... first I'd working with him, I think he had

24:01

16 direct reports as

24:03

the CEO. And so

24:05

then he said, well, hold on. If these

24:07

are my three most important things, like

24:11

why does the general council report to me? Why

24:15

does the head of HR report to me? Why

24:18

does this, why does the CMO report to me? Like

24:21

it was just really interesting. And we

24:23

went through and he actually ended up

24:26

completely revamping his leadership team, creating a

24:28

more robust COO role. Where a lot

24:30

of the operations reported up through, through

24:33

there, because his priorities,

24:36

he said, these are the three things I want to do. These are the

24:38

three things I want to focus on. And

24:40

so that's a very, I think

24:42

powerful example of someone who can

24:44

really change the way he leads

24:47

based on where he wants to focus. Peter,

24:49

how do you help clients to

24:51

figure out the right priorities and

24:54

not miss something that can lead

24:56

to tremendous pain down the road?

24:58

No, no, it's a, it's a, it's a

25:00

great point. So first of all, I would

25:02

say there probably aren't right priorities. There's just

25:04

different priorities. And so

25:06

first of all, is having the willingness to

25:08

experiment, right. And to change. And

25:11

so when, when I work with

25:13

clients, it's a, it's a six

25:15

month process and they already start

25:17

applying things as they go and

25:20

learning. So they said, oh, okay, so I'm not going

25:22

to be involved in this piece. So

25:24

I'm going to pull, like I'm going to let

25:26

one of my direct reports lead that piece and

25:29

then, oh my gosh, that actually wasn't a good idea

25:31

because now they're making decisions that aren't good. I need

25:33

to step back in. So

25:36

part of the really important thing is practice.

25:39

And this is something, you know, I've preached

25:41

to my clients a lot is that we don't

25:43

do like the nice thing when you coach the

25:46

national team or you coach any sport or you

25:48

play music is before you perform, you get to

25:50

practice a business. We don't get that opportunity. We

25:52

just, it's almost like learning to play the piano

25:55

in front of like a couple of hundred people

25:57

when you've never played before. The

26:00

nice thing about practice is you're

26:02

willing to experiment and fail and

26:04

it is allowed in practice where

26:07

in your performance it's not. So one of the things

26:09

I try to do with my clients is get them

26:11

to be willing to recognize that number one they fail

26:14

all the time. There are things that don't

26:16

work all the time and it happens all the time

26:18

because the jobs are big and the

26:20

things are complex. And as soon as you

26:22

acknowledge that you say, well okay, if I

26:24

understand that a lot of the time I'm

26:27

going to fail and the trick is to

26:29

adjust and be agile, then the leaders are

26:31

willing to experiment and practice. And they're saying,

26:33

hey, I'm going to try this for a

26:35

bit. I'm going to let someone on

26:37

my team lead this or I'm going to lean into

26:39

this part of the business and I'm going to learn

26:41

and take feedback to say, is that where I should

26:44

be spending my time? So I don't

26:46

think it is written on stone. I

26:48

don't think there's a moment where everything

26:50

changes. It's throughout the process they're experimenting

26:52

and getting feedback that allows them to

26:54

do that. So that would be one.

26:57

And then the second thing is, and

26:59

I say this, I think feedback is

27:01

the fuel of high performance as

27:04

a leader to go to your different stakeholders

27:06

and say, here's where I think I should

27:08

spend my time. What do you

27:11

think? Do that to the board, do

27:13

that to the leadership team, do it

27:15

to mentors,

27:18

find people that you can test

27:20

your model with would be

27:22

the second thing. So I think if you practice and

27:25

you test your model, I think

27:27

both of those would

27:29

probably overcome some of like, because I

27:31

think what you're saying, Chris, is there

27:33

are biases, there are blind spots, right?

27:36

There are things, this cannot be an

27:38

individual exercise, right? This has to be

27:40

a team organizational exercise, especially at the

27:42

C-suite. And so getting feedback from the

27:44

other parts of the organization is really

27:46

critical. And when you

27:48

are working with executives, do you

27:50

recommend specific time management approach for

27:53

those executives that are struggling with

27:55

that part? Yeah, I mean, I

27:57

think it's a natural outcome of... of

28:00

the work that I do with them. But

28:03

fundamentally, I think

28:06

what leaders get out of it is they

28:08

just value their time more. I

28:11

just don't think, like time is

28:13

a non-renewable resource. Once

28:15

it's gone, we don't get it back. And

28:17

you know, you'll often hear leaders say, we

28:19

are only our people, right? They'll

28:21

say, we're only our people. And I'm like, no,

28:24

no, you're only your people and where they spend

28:26

their time. And if they spend their

28:28

time in the right places, then they're doing

28:30

good stuff. If they spend their time in

28:32

the inefficient places, then they're not good. So

28:35

the natural outcome of the work that I

28:37

do with them is that they have their

28:40

priorities. We do work where we take the

28:42

last month of their calendar and we map

28:44

it to their priorities. And we say, which

28:46

of these match your

28:48

priorities? What does that mean about what you want

28:50

to do differently? Often working with

28:52

the chief of staff or the EA to

28:55

say, here are the different things. Because some

28:57

of the hard things, when I work with

28:59

clients, there's

29:02

often, there's definitely people that

29:04

lose access, right,

29:06

to this executive. Like there's a choice that says, this

29:09

is not a group. There's another way this group can

29:11

be supported. It isn't through me. I

29:13

recently worked with a C-suite in

29:15

a large professional service firm and

29:18

she loved mentoring younger people

29:22

in their organization. She's like, it was great. I

29:24

mean, she's a woman. She liked mentoring, which was

29:26

actually a woman of color. And so

29:28

that was really important to her. But

29:31

now she's at the C-suite. She actually doesn't have time to do

29:33

that. So she had to find

29:35

other ways. She had to find other support for people

29:39

that she'd been mentoring. And then she

29:41

had to find other ways to have

29:43

an impact with that group that wasn't

29:45

these one-on-one hours that were extremely valuable

29:47

to the individual, but

29:49

not potentially a great return for

29:51

the organization, right?

29:54

And so you have to be really

29:56

explicit and you've got to be able to find ways. So

29:59

when you value your time. then you also

30:01

have to communicate to your team and to the

30:03

different stakeholders about how that time is going

30:05

to change and what it means about access to

30:07

your group. And when you

30:09

work with a client and they basically

30:12

reduce the amount of people that have

30:14

direct access to them, the people who

30:16

lose access, they don't just lose access,

30:19

they lose power, they lose

30:21

level of influence they had within an organization,

30:23

how do you deal with that backlash? Yeah,

30:25

I mean, I think that's the challenge. That's why

30:28

it can't just be, oh, I don't have time

30:30

to meet with you. It needs to be,

30:32

hey, I don't have time to meet with you,

30:35

but here's another leader that

30:37

does, right? There has to be a little

30:39

bit of a handoff, or I'm not

30:41

meeting one on one with these people, I'm going

30:43

to meet in groups of five, right?

30:46

That saves me a lot of time. Instead

30:48

of access, it actually creates a better bond

30:50

between that group of people that you're mentoring.

30:53

So there's different ways that you can do

30:55

that. But it's all about valuing your time.

30:57

And just to say, for some

31:00

leaders, that mentoring work is

31:02

part of their purpose, it will be in their

31:04

priorities. And that's their choice. Right?

31:08

For this leader, it was one of

31:10

those things that had to go away. So she had to

31:13

find off ramps, where there was still

31:15

support for that group with still senior

31:17

leaders. And she still wanted to like,

31:19

there were people that she'd been mentoring for 10

31:21

years, so she didn't want to say, Oh, I'm

31:23

not talking to you anymore. So instead of meeting

31:25

one on one, she met in groups of five,

31:27

that saved her five hours, right,

31:30

which is a lot of time for a leader, or four

31:32

hours, I guess, if I did the math, right, so four hours,

31:34

which is a lot of time for the leader. And

31:36

if that's four hours a month, that

31:39

that's a not insignificant return

31:41

for the organization. And

31:44

so you just have to find ways to mitigate

31:46

it. When you're working with clients,

31:48

what are the things that cause leaders

31:50

to fail in implementing this? So,

31:54

I mean, I was actually, I

31:57

was actually thinking

32:00

about this the other day. And

32:03

the reason why I was thinking about

32:06

this was I

32:10

had a potential client that I was talking to and

32:13

I was unsure about their commitment

32:16

to change. So, you

32:19

know, often, not always, but

32:21

often, you

32:23

know, an organization would reach

32:26

out to me and they'll say, hey, we have a

32:28

leader that's struggling and they need some help. And,

32:30

you know, I talked to the C-suite, or

32:34

the CEO is one of the leadership team and

32:36

that person's being told you need coaching. Okay,

32:40

so that's not a great position to start with, right?

32:42

And so, you know, I always say, they're

32:44

like, this person needs coaching, if they want to make the

32:46

next step or, you know, they've got some

32:48

real challenges. And so I have

32:51

to sit down with that person, I have to say, okay, like

32:53

I'm willing to work with you, but how open are you to

32:55

really change? Because if you're not

32:57

open to change, that's fine, right? That's your choice.

32:59

There's not a judgment. It's just not worth my

33:02

time or your time to have that conversation. So

33:05

the first one is probably individual

33:07

commitment to really change and

33:10

really be a different leader. The

33:13

second thing is it's

33:16

very hard to develop an

33:20

impactful leadership model

33:22

that you can implement if

33:24

the context around you is

33:27

constantly changing. So

33:29

it's very hard to lead. And,

33:32

you know, when there's

33:34

constant reorganizations, when

33:37

there's stress in the system

33:39

that's really creating a short-term focus like

33:42

you said before, Chris. And

33:45

in those situations, often I come in and I'm

33:47

saying, hey, yeah, we'll do this leadership model. And

33:49

then I'm like, oh, okay, actually you can't do

33:51

this right now. We're just meeting and talking about

33:53

how you survive the next month. Right,

33:56

there's things that are coming up that you need to deal with. You

33:58

just have to do that. You can... And

34:01

you can certainly begin to build

34:03

some of those foundations in that

34:05

process, but I think it's very,

34:08

very hard if that dynamic,

34:10

if it's such a dynamic organization,

34:13

because things aren't going very well,

34:15

that it's very hard for people

34:17

to have some stability when

34:20

things are dynamic. So, I

34:22

know those are probably the

34:24

two biggest. And sort

34:27

of a subset of that second group is, and I've

34:29

seen this happen a lot, is that we do all

34:31

this great work, and this person's already, and then all

34:33

of a sudden there's a crisis. Now,

34:35

the work that we do will have value

34:37

in that crisis, but actually

34:39

their ability to fully implement the model is

34:43

damaged because they don't have

34:46

the ability to be as

34:48

intentional as they would like to be because there's

34:50

something else going on that's taking their time. And

34:53

so those are probably the three things. But like

34:55

I said, when I work with

34:57

clients and we're talking about

34:59

it, I had a client that never finished

35:01

the model because

35:03

they're like, I

35:05

got it. As we go through it, they're like doing things or

35:07

testing things, I get it, I get it how it works. And

35:09

so they finished it intellectually. They knew how they wanted

35:11

to lead. I like to have them

35:14

write it down because I think it becomes something they

35:16

can reflect back on. But literally,

35:18

you'll get paid the full amount, but I've

35:20

got it. And I'm like, yeah, I think

35:22

you do. You

35:25

get it, you know how you want to lead, you know

35:27

where you want to spend your time. We don't

35:29

need to talk anymore. And that's sort of like a

35:31

little bit of the downside of my business model is

35:33

that my goal is that they

35:36

never call me again because

35:38

they understand how the system works

35:40

so well that as

35:43

things adjust, they can make adjustments. When

35:45

you call clients identify the priorities, do

35:48

you set a maximum kind of number

35:50

of priorities they can actually have? You

35:53

have good questions, Chris. Yeah, you have good

35:56

questions. say

36:00

in your model, the

36:03

way I like to talk about it is

36:05

the priorities are not

36:08

so comprehensive that

36:10

they cover everything that you do.

36:13

The priorities are about where do I want to

36:15

lean in.

36:17

Because if you actually listed the priorities

36:20

of a CEO, it

36:22

would be like, I need to

36:24

present to the street. I need

36:26

to manage the board. I need to do

36:28

like, like, there's too many. So what I

36:30

like to talk about is like, it's not,

36:33

not these are the only things I'm going to do. It's

36:36

like, when I have choice, these

36:39

are the things I'm going to choose to spend more

36:41

time. And I think that's,

36:43

that's the real critical piece of it. So

36:45

it's really about leaning in and to me,

36:50

maybe five might be too many, I

36:52

might prefer three, like, like say, here

36:54

are the three things and it's dynamic. So over the next

36:57

six months, here are the three things I'm going to focus

36:59

on. And four months in, you might be like, actually, something

37:01

else has come up. Okay, can you

37:03

add it? You take something out? Like it's

37:05

sort of where it's a bit the art

37:07

and not the science. So I

37:09

think probably three is where I like to go. If you

37:11

want to do four, I think you can do more than

37:14

two. Five, what

37:16

you would have to be a very well developed

37:18

leader to do that. And let's

37:20

say someone picks three, you help them

37:22

pick three, how much time ideally they

37:25

should dedicate to it? I

37:27

mean, I don't think I more, whatever

37:30

it says, they need to dedicate more time on

37:32

those. How much? I mean, that's,

37:34

that's, that's going to vary. But I think the goal

37:36

is if you have those three, it's like, how do

37:38

I spend more time on these

37:40

three things? Because remember, that

37:42

will get me to my vision, the

37:44

things that I want to accomplish in

37:46

the role, it will help me meet the

37:49

expectations of the organization. And it will

37:51

fulfill me because it meets my purpose,

37:53

right? It's authentic, because it's based on the

37:55

value I provide and my leadership beliefs. So

37:58

it's really just how do I spend more

38:00

time on these. And that's why I talk

38:02

about when you have discretion, this

38:04

is what I spend time on. And that's probably the

38:06

best way of really describing

38:09

the amount of time. And

38:11

in going through this process, which piece

38:13

of the model is the hardest usually

38:15

to put together? I think

38:19

the hardest thing probably to put

38:21

together is the

38:23

two hardest things are the value that they

38:25

provide and their

38:28

leadership beliefs. The value they provide

38:30

because often I work with

38:32

clients in transitions. They just became the

38:34

CEO. And so what happens

38:36

is the value that you provided as a

38:39

president of a business unit. And

38:43

by the way, or the head of a function,

38:45

actually I worked with a CEO

38:48

recently who came up through

38:50

marketing. And so they felt like the value

38:52

they provide was marketing expertise. Not

38:55

more. You're the CEO. That is

38:57

not the value you provide. Even though you

39:00

spent the last 25 years becoming an expert

39:02

in marketing, and even though you were promoted

39:04

into this role because you are

39:06

really good at marketing, the value you provide

39:09

is not marketing. You now have a head

39:11

of marketing. That's the value they provide.

39:13

So that transition can be really difficult. It's

39:15

often wrapped up in self-identity. It's

39:18

wrapped up in expertise. So that transition

39:20

can be really difficult. The

39:23

second one that's really hard is leadership

39:25

beliefs. And leadership beliefs can

39:27

be difficult because people really

39:30

have to be metacognitive to understand why

39:32

they believe something. And

39:34

so I had

39:37

a client who, one of their

39:39

leadership beliefs was my teams need to have something to

39:43

be great. OK. What

39:47

is it in your background

39:49

that makes you think that is true?

39:53

And when we worked our way back, we actually

39:56

went back to a couple of experiences that they

39:58

had where teams did really amazing. stuff

40:00

and it was really fun and then it

40:02

comes, all right but what was fun about

40:04

it? Right

40:06

so it's not fun, fun's an outcome. What was

40:09

actually fun about it? And it was that so

40:11

now I so actually it's not really fun it's

40:13

the collaboration and the intensity

40:15

of the work that's what made it fun.

40:17

Okay let's put that into your leadership beliefs

40:20

and so those leadership beliefs require real

40:22

meta cognition, the ability to really think

40:25

about why you think something to

40:27

be able to really understand that. So those are

40:29

the two and they're also the squishiest like role

40:31

expectation and vision. Those are like oh yeah like

40:33

I can write those down. Most leaders already have

40:35

some comp, they kind of know what they're supposed

40:37

to do, they kind of know what they're trying

40:40

to do. But the value

40:42

that you provide and the and

40:45

the leadership beliefs are probably the hardest ones for

40:47

them to come up with. Pete and

40:49

which elements need to be clarified

40:51

before you can settle on priorities?

40:53

So I think yeah it's a great question.

40:55

I think on priorities on your focus you

40:58

really need clarity around what your

41:00

role expectation and your vision is

41:03

and these are things where you need to

41:05

socialize those. Right

41:07

I actually worked

41:10

with and you know there's a number

41:12

of these case studies that are actually in the book

41:14

but I worked with a professor

41:17

who just became the managing

41:19

editor of a very

41:23

big publication in his field and

41:26

he was

41:28

really he was in leadership shock, he really didn't

41:30

know how to do the job and so when

41:32

we said what's role expectation he had to go

41:34

to the board and be like I think this

41:36

is what my job is. Is this what my

41:38

job is? Right or like this is what I

41:40

proposed so you need to both in

41:42

the role expectations and in the vision

41:45

those need to be socialized and

41:47

you need to be like hey this is what I

41:49

think you expect of me and here's

41:51

what I'm trying to do. Do you

41:53

guys agree? And

41:56

Those are the two things that really

41:58

have to be aligned to those. Because

42:00

if you don't get those rights. Than.

42:03

Your focus areas are going to be off the made. You're

42:05

not going to be the expectations of the organization or you're

42:07

not gonna get what you want to go in your vision.

42:10

Disappointed they can stack and

42:12

the socializing step. Yeah, I

42:14

am. Yeah, it is. It's as and

42:16

especially when you've got multiple stakeholders are.

42:18

The challenge with a board is it's

42:20

not a single entity. Though. Different

42:22

board members can be challenging and said that

42:25

bet they may need to be some time

42:27

invested in the little bit stakeholder analysis today.

42:29

Who do we really need to get on

42:31

board with this? Oh who, but also who

42:33

has some of the experience and expertise that

42:36

cannot be refined? This I'm and so that's

42:38

definitely something that is an important part of

42:40

it. So it's not like often socialize, it's

42:42

like through the key people that need to

42:44

be on board and who can we learn

42:47

from and that's have socialized with them. and

42:49

then when it goes to the board of

42:51

when it or. Or it goes to the

42:53

leadership team or to the Ceo. It's been kind

42:55

of like it had a couple of. Influences

42:58

that have seen it that can

43:00

support. and then you want with clients

43:02

the also look at that has no life

43:04

and how do you make said at all

43:06

much together. So I mean this is

43:09

sort of some of the disgusted by have

43:11

bottom of my colleagues. so even in in

43:13

my work. On.

43:15

Very focused on on the professional

43:18

world. As in in

43:20

in the authentically to sit model

43:22

as a coach. The exact coach

43:24

it's I'm I move outside of

43:26

box and so there is definitely.

43:29

Instances. In

43:31

fact, I can think of one right now.

43:33

Our current plan where work, life balance there

43:35

is really important. And it's as

43:37

written, challenging and and are even say. I'm

43:40

there. Was a client that I work with about

43:42

ten years ago. That.

43:45

I was doing this work within and

43:47

the outcome of of the leadership model

43:49

was a lateral move. Into.

43:51

Were role that was less intense. Though,

43:54

she could spend more time own. right

43:57

so that was the at the outcome was

43:59

now in the leadership model, none of that

44:01

was said, but in the discussions that we had,

44:03

it was, it was, you

44:05

know, she took a lateral move for a few

44:07

years while she had younger kids so she could

44:10

spend more time with them. And in fact, last

44:12

year she got promoted to VP and she reached

44:14

out to me, I hadn't spoken to her

44:16

for like maybe three or four years. And

44:18

she said two things that warmed my heart,

44:20

right? So one was, hey, I want

44:22

to let you know that I wouldn't be here if we

44:24

hadn't worked together 10 years ago,

44:26

because she was going to quit. And

44:29

then the second thing she said is, I took out my

44:31

leadership model, and I reviewed it, and

44:33

I moved to VP. And those

44:35

are the two things, it like filled my emotional tank,

44:37

I get shivers now, like as a coach, you don't

44:39

get much better than that. Like that was

44:42

kind of like, you know, when I read that,

44:44

I kind of got up and danced around in my in my

44:46

office a little bit, just a little bit. And

44:48

I dance, I'm a terrible dancer, but I did it.

44:51

So it is incredible to be

44:53

able to truly impact someone in

44:55

a very meaningful way, the way

44:57

their life trajectory unfolded. It is

44:59

incredible. So the last question from

45:01

me is stepping away from our discussion so

45:03

far. And this is my favorite question to

45:06

ask. Over the last

45:08

few years, what were two,

45:10

three, aha moments, realizations, that

45:12

really changed either the way you look at life,

45:15

or the way you look at business? Yeah,

45:17

so, so that's, that's,

45:19

that's really interesting. So one is

45:22

being exposed to vertical leadership development.

45:25

And this is changing,

45:27

you know, I

45:29

wrote the book about five,

45:31

like pre COVID. And

45:33

COVID kind of got in the way of the

45:35

publication. So I'm already evolving it as we go.

45:37

And one of the things is this idea of

45:39

vertical leadership development, which is, it's

45:42

about leadership aperture, it's your ability to

45:44

take and think about things in a

45:47

broader way. And as you become more

45:49

mature as a leader, your

45:51

aperture, aperture widens. And

45:53

there are some people that could be CEOs, but could

45:55

actually have a very narrow aperture. And

45:58

there are some people who might not even be managed. that can

46:00

have a very wide aperture. So the

46:02

idea of great leaders being able to

46:04

think like a visionary, or

46:07

to think about strategy, or to think about tactics, and

46:09

being able to move up and down that continuum, that's

46:11

been a big aha for me that I now take

46:14

with me in all the work that I do. So

46:16

that's definitely one. The

46:24

second thing that I think has really

46:26

struck me through the work that I've

46:28

been doing with my clients is, and

46:31

this is kind of like a post-COVID thing, and

46:34

it links to the management of time,

46:37

is the

46:40

importance of face-to-face

46:42

interactions are so

46:44

critical. I do a lot of

46:46

work. So we've talked a lot about my executive coaching, but

46:49

I do a lot of team coaching and high-performing teamwork. And

46:55

the ability for us to connect

46:57

face-to-face for two days as

46:59

a team will transform how that

47:01

team works and how that feels in

47:05

a way that I think pre-COVID wasn't true

47:07

because they would get together face-to-face. And

47:10

so that's been something to me that

47:13

I'm not sure that I and

47:16

I think it was a little bit like I

47:18

think implicitly I knew that was true, but now

47:20

explicitly I know it's true. I

47:23

now know because I see it with the teams

47:25

that I work with, they come together for two

47:27

days, and their next virtual meeting is just completely

47:29

different. They talk to each other

47:31

differently. They behave differently. And so I

47:33

think that face-to-face

47:35

work, I think, is critical. And

47:37

then a bit of a personal one or

47:41

personal slash professional one,

47:45

I think there's

47:48

a little bit like Dr. Hill myself. I'm

47:51

52. I have young

47:53

kids. So I have a four-year-old and seven-year-old.

47:55

That's why I look like this. If

47:58

I go through a night where I'm everyone sleeps in their

48:00

own bed for the whole night, that's a win. It

48:03

didn't happen last night. And so

48:05

it also means that when I'm

48:07

60, only one of my

48:10

kids will be in high school, the other

48:12

one won't be in high school yet. And so

48:14

I've, I've become more intentional

48:17

about thinking about what I want to do for the

48:19

next 10 years of my life. I

48:22

travel a lot for work. I want to be around

48:24

more. And so I think you

48:27

can, you don't need

48:29

a plan, but I

48:32

think you need a destination. And

48:34

this is to your point, Chris, not for this quarter.

48:37

Like where do I want to be when I'm 60? And

48:40

so as long as I have that end goal

48:42

about where I want to be in six, when

48:44

I'm 60, I can mostly

48:46

find my way there. And so I think

48:48

the power of having an end

48:51

goal about where you want to be in your

48:53

career, I think can

48:55

be useful as long as you're, as long

48:57

as it's vague enough, it can have multiple

48:59

outcomes. So it's not, I want to be

49:01

this. It's like, I kind of want to have these attributes

49:03

in my professional life when I'm 60. I'm

49:06

not like, and then I kind of work my

49:08

way towards that. I think that's been really powerful

49:10

for me. And

49:12

that's been since I, you know, had

49:15

my four year old when I was 49.

49:18

And, you know, I was like, all right, I

49:21

need to start thinking about this a little bit more seriously.

49:23

So those are probably the three things I've taken away. Thank

49:26

you, Pete. Anything else you want to share?

49:28

Maybe something you wanted me to ask you

49:31

and I didn't. And also where can our

49:33

listeners learn more about you by your book,

49:35

anything else you want to share related to

49:37

your book and song? Oh, well, thank

49:39

you. Thank you for that. So, um, what

49:41

I would say is that I, I

49:45

think, um, lead leaders that

49:47

want to be better,

49:50

will be better. I

49:52

think that's probably the most like you just have that, like, if you

49:54

just want to be a better leader, you'll be a better leader. Um,

49:57

you don't need to read my book. You don't

49:59

need to get a. coach, but

50:02

you need to be reflective, you need to

50:04

be metacognitive and you need to seek out

50:06

feedback. So if you're a leader, and you're

50:08

really thinking about why you think about things,

50:11

right, then you can be

50:13

more intentional. And then

50:15

if you seek feedback, you will always

50:17

improve. And I think those are probably

50:19

the things that great leaders do and

50:22

they don't need coaches to do. However,

50:24

if you would like some help, you

50:26

can find my book is leadership shop, you can get it

50:28

on Amazon. There's a podcast

50:31

that's out with its launch also called leadership

50:33

shock where we talk to some

50:36

of my clients that I work

50:38

with, but some other experts in the

50:40

field that you can check

50:42

out and you can always sign up at

50:44

my newsletter at Pete steinberg.com.

50:48

This has been a great discussion, Chris, I really appreciate you

50:50

giving me the time. Thank you, Pete. I really

50:52

appreciate you being here as well. And

50:54

for everyone watching and listening, our guest

50:56

today have been again Pete Steinberg. Last

50:58

name is S T E I M

51:01

B E R G. Check

51:03

out his book, it's called leadership shock.

51:06

And our podcast sponsor today is

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your strategy skills, you can get

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the overall approach used in well

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resume based on that. You can

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get free download at firmsconsulting.com

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forward slash resume PDF. Thank you

51:37

very much again, Pete. Thank

51:40

you very much everyone for tuning in. And I'm

51:42

looking forward to connect with you all next

51:44

time. Thanks

51:51

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51:53

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