0:00

Ready? Fed?

0:03

No.

0:04

This is episode two hundred and eighty

0:07

two, the author of eight books.

0:09

Certified running coach and author

0:11

of the long running Murphy's lore

0:13

column in Runners World, Sam Murphy.

0:24

Welcome to the Strength Running podcast. I'm

0:27

your host, Jason Fitzgerald. In this

0:29

episode, is for all the marathoners

0:31

out there. Joining me is Sam

0:34

Murphy, a coach and author who's

0:36

been immersed in the running community for

0:38

decades. We're exploring common

0:40

marathon myths and half truths

0:43

that could potentially derail your

0:45

training this upcoming season. If

0:47

you wanna have the best marathon training possible

0:49

this year, this episode is

0:51

for you. If you're new here, this

0:54

show features training conversations, coaching

0:56

calls, and experts in the running

0:58

space to elevate your thinking

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1:16

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in every upcoming episode. Alright.

4:01

My guest today is Sam Murphy.

4:04

She is a journalist, the author

4:06

of eight books and a running

4:08

coach. She pens the long standing

4:10

Murphy's lore column in Runners World

4:12

magazine and is written for numerous

4:14

national newspapers and magazines for

4:16

over two decades. Sam

4:18

has raised everything from the five k

4:20

to ultra distance, ultra marathons.

4:23

She holds a sports and

4:25

exercise science degree, is an

4:27

England athletics qualified endurance

4:29

coach. She just released her newest

4:31

book, Run Your Best Marathon, Your

4:33

Trusted Guide to Training and Racing

4:35

Better. In this episode, we

4:37

explore common running myths,

4:39

HalfTruths and misconceptions that

4:42

could potentially derail your

4:44

marathon training. I've long

4:46

thought that simply avoiding mistakes

4:48

is one of the fastest ways to

4:50

improve. Sam delivers

4:52

in this episode. Without further

4:54

delay, please enjoy my conversation

4:57

with Sam Murphy. Hey, Sam.

4:59

Welcome to the podcast. Thank you,

5:01

Jason. Nice to be here. Well, I'm

5:03

excited to chat with you. You have written

5:06

quite the book on marathon

5:08

training, marathon racing, marathon

5:10

COVRI. It's perhaps one

5:12

of the most comprehensive marathon

5:14

training books that I've seen

5:17

recently, which just really goes into detail

5:19

on almost everything you'd like to know about

5:21

how to train for a marathon, how to

5:23

choose the right course. I mean, you've really

5:26

left no stone unturned. For

5:28

those runners who wanna have a great experience.

5:30

Oh, it's great to hear you say that. That was

5:33

that's pretty much what I was setting

5:35

out to do. I

5:37

felt that I've actually written a book

5:39

about Maracem's before, but

5:42

it was a long time ago. I

5:44

think it was actually two thousand and

5:46

four. And

5:48

at that time, the maritime

5:50

market was very different

5:52

and much smaller And so a

5:54

book that was just about the marathon

5:56

that could be for everybody was was,

5:59

you know, an acceptable idea. And so

6:01

anybody who hadn't even

6:03

run A5K before could pick the

6:05

book up and and, you

6:07

know, read read the advice

6:09

and and supposedly kind of

6:11

end up running the marathon. But over those

6:14

ensuing years of more experience

6:17

of coaching, more experience of running

6:19

myself, I think

6:21

things have got to be more nuanced

6:23

than that. And the market has

6:25

grown. There's much more than

6:28

the advice that is big

6:30

given needs to be more specific

6:33

to different groups of people. And

6:35

I think what I found was happening

6:38

was that the advice that is given out

6:40

at the kind of elite level

6:42

by the by the high profile coaches

6:45

is just kind of extrapolated down.

6:49

So a lot of the principles are

6:51

still, you know, presented

6:53

as being the same, but they just kind

6:55

of made a bit smaller. And and I was finding

6:57

that just doesn't really work. You know, you have to

6:59

kind of approach it in a different way altogether

7:01

rather than just

7:03

sort of make make minimize the

7:05

whole kind of training process

7:08

to fit somebody who isn't running, you know,

7:11

a hundred plus miles a

7:13

week or whatever.

7:14

Not everyone can do that. Well,

7:16

exactly. I mean, you know, a lot of a lot

7:18

of us have these inconvenient things

7:20

like you know, relationships and

7:22

and jobs and, you

7:25

know, family commitments. And and we we

7:27

can't put all of our time and

7:29

all of our energy into running and

7:31

whatever that those limitations that

7:33

we have have to be built

7:35

into the training program that

7:37

that we put ourselves on. And I think that

7:39

is one of the biggest reasons why so

7:41

many people fall at the

7:43

first hurdle. You know, they as soon as they're

7:45

starting that big build up, it's

7:47

such a steep curve that

7:49

they're on in a lot of these kind

7:51

of off the shelf programs that it's

7:54

just the overload is too much and

7:56

people break down or burn out very,

7:58

very quickly. Yeah.

7:59

And I think, you know, one of the things

8:01

that I always try to work on in my coaching

8:04

practice and then any of the content that I

8:06

create is how do we make

8:08

all this training work in your life

8:10

because, you know, like we were discussing,

8:12

not everyone's gonna be running a hundred and ten

8:14

miles a week. Not everyone, you know, has

8:16

that luxury or or even that physical

8:18

ability. And I think what you've done with your

8:20

book is is really create

8:23

this very accessible approach

8:25

to the marathon where you

8:27

know, you can be a a

8:29

working single dad and you

8:31

can go and train for a marathon and you can

8:33

make it happen. So I definitely appreciate

8:35

that because I work with a lot of adult runners

8:37

who, you know, have those, you know,

8:39

very annoying, inconvenient time

8:43

sucks like having a significant

8:45

other or a job. You know, those things

8:47

that are just really getting in the way of

8:49

their running. So you certainly

8:51

have to make it work.

8:51

Yeah, you'd be forgiven for thinking when you

8:53

read some of the programs of all the things that you

8:55

have to be doing to kind of keep up

8:58

the, you know, the the preliminary stuff to your

9:00

robbing and, you know, attending to your nutrition

9:03

and your core training and your

9:05

stretching and your training and

9:07

all the different types of sessions. You, you

9:09

know, you'd be forgiven for

9:11

for thinking. It's actually impossible to

9:13

do all of that. And and

9:15

have a, you know, a normal

9:17

life at the same time. And so I

9:19

think we've got to kind of drill down

9:21

into what is really important. And

9:25

and that really requires

9:28

us looking at our own

9:30

lives and ourselves and our strengths

9:32

and our weaknesses and our I did I've

9:34

got a chapter in the book called all about

9:36

you because I think that that

9:38

is a real missing part

9:40

of the of the jigsaw often

9:42

left out, you know. It's it's like people go

9:44

and choose a marathon program

9:46

like going to the

9:48

supermarket and saying, mhmm. Yes. I'd like

9:50

the the sub four thirty and

9:52

picking that one off the shelf and then

9:54

hoping that by following

9:56

that, that's going to produce the

9:58

sub four thirty time. And I think that

10:00

program doesn't know anything about

10:02

you. It doesn't know about your injury

10:04

injury propensity or your what

10:07

motivates you what sort of runs you're good at and

10:09

not so good at how many times you maybe have

10:11

never even run a a race ever in your life, you

10:13

know, all of that stuff. So the program doesn't know

10:15

that. So it's just

10:17

illogical to think that

10:19

everybody who does this

10:21

program here is gonna result in

10:24

the same sort of finish time. So

10:26

I just wanted to do away with that finish

10:28

time thing and the sub three thirty

10:30

and the sub four and the blah blah

10:32

blah. I just wanted to take that out and just say,

10:34

let's look at you and

10:37

your current place and

10:39

then let's look at how we can get you

10:41

to the best of your

10:43

potential over the time that

10:45

we've got available. And then what you

10:47

get at the end of it is what you get at

10:49

the end of it and, you know, I can't

10:51

guarantee what the time will

10:52

be, but it will be the best that you could've possibly

10:54

done at that time

10:56

given those limitations. Right.

10:58

And and I think your book is really interesting because

11:01

it it essentially is

11:03

a book that dispels this

11:05

myth that everyone has to

11:07

follow, you know, a a very

11:09

formal training plan to a t with

11:11

absolutely no modifications for

11:13

their own lives. And if they

11:15

aren't able to do that, well, you just

11:17

can't run that marathon. And you

11:19

you do a really great job of

11:22

modifying marathon training for

11:24

the average person who has all those

11:26

other responsibilities. And, you

11:28

know, I've always been someone who said, you

11:30

know, a training plan is sort of

11:32

like a set of directions to your

11:34

final destination. You can

11:36

take detours. You can go off

11:38

script a little bit and still arrive

11:40

at your final destination. And in

11:42

fact, even as someone who who

11:44

sort of makes a living by

11:47

creating training plans for runners. I'm the

11:49

first person to say that training

11:51

plan is just a road map and you can

11:53

certainly modify it I don't think I've

11:55

ever followed a training plan myself where I

11:57

didn't start to change things a little bit

11:59

even in the first week of that training

12:01

plan. So so I really

12:03

think that's I think that's highly

12:05

appreciated from my perspective because

12:07

I know that runners need

12:09

that kind of flexibility. And

12:12

Sam, I thought it would be fun today to

12:14

282 talk a little bit more about some of these

12:16

marathon myths that that people

12:18

tend to believe that I think

12:20

often hold them back from

12:22

achieving what they want to achieve in the

12:24

marathon, potentially holding them back from

12:26

even doing their first marathon.

12:29

And so I'd like to discuss some of

12:31

these fun myths and get your perspective

12:33

on them. I think, you know, the first

12:35

one we've already talked about a little bit, you know,

12:37

you've got to follow high

12:39

level training plan and and follow it

12:41

to a tee and not

12:43

deviate it from it whatsoever. That's

12:45

obviously untrue and I I

12:47

really like how you've included that chapter

12:49

in your book to discuss exactly

12:51

that. What do you say to

12:53

the person who says

12:55

or believes that they just can't run

12:57

a marathon. I don't have the body

12:59

for it. I don't have the time. I

13:01

don't have the physical fitness

13:03

or

13:03

athleticism. What would you say to that

13:06

runner? Well, that's an interesting

13:08

one, Jason. I think I

13:10

do think that, you know,

13:12

bar a few very, you

13:14

know, obvious kind of structural

13:17

limitations that that

13:19

some bodies you know, will

13:21

have. I think it's true that that everybody

13:24

can run a marathon, but what I think

13:26

often is is it

13:28

sort of goes wrong. Is that

13:31

people sort of embark

13:33

on that program, you know, the sixteen

13:35

week program or the eighteen week

13:37

or or twelve week or whatever it is, you know,

13:39

out of Run as well magazine or

13:41

whatever. And they haven't really

13:44

built enough of a base before they

13:46

start. And so that means that that

13:48

first few weeks, the

13:50

incline that they are having

13:52

to climb up is so steep

13:54

because they haven't even run nine

13:56

miles, say, for a long run before.

13:58

And so they have to start at

14:00

nine miles. And then that's

14:02

the longest run they've ever done. Then the next

14:04

week, they have to run ten miles. And then the

14:06

next week, they have to run eleven miles.

14:08

And then and this this kind of really

14:10

steep incline simply to

14:12

get to the point where they're running, you

14:14

know, a half marathon after

14:16

maybe, you know, six to eight

14:18

weeks into the program, then you've only got

14:20

a very short time to get a little

14:23

bit sort of higher up the

14:25

mileage scale than that. And

14:27

everything just happens too intensely

14:29

and too quickly. And so

14:31

a statement that I've made in the book, which I

14:33

know, won't be popular with everybody.

14:36

Is that I think you

14:38

should be comfortable running a

14:40

half marathon before

14:42

you start thinking about running a marathon. And

14:44

I mean, comfortable as in, you

14:46

know, that that it's something that you've done

14:48

a few times. It doesn't have to be in a race,

14:50

but that you can go out tomorrow and go

14:52

and do that. And if that in itself is

14:54

a mass sick challenge now. It's

14:56

not the right time to do the marathon. It doesn't mean you

14:58

can't do one, but it's just why make

15:00

it really hard on yourself because

15:02

The other thing is is people who

15:05

aren't building up at that such

15:07

a sort of a a sort

15:09

of steep incline are

15:11

going to be out there for really long

15:14

times when they're doing those long

15:16

runs. And I've come across people.

15:18

I'm sure you have two. You know, when they're out doing a

15:20

long run in, you know, week

15:22

nine or ten where they're saying, oh, yeah. Well,

15:24

I had to do twenty miles, so I was out

15:26

there for know, four and a half hours,

15:28

four hours forty five for a

15:30

long run and and does that length

15:32

of time on your feet is gonna be absolutely

15:34

exhausting. And there needs to be a point

15:36

where you're just gonna cap that long run distance

15:39

and not go by, you know,

15:41

not go by you have

15:43

to go by time, but just limit it at at, you

15:45

know, maybe three or three hours fifteen,

15:47

something like that because, you know,

15:49

that's when people talk about doing twenty more

15:51

runs, they're they're they're looking back, you know, that

15:53

all comes from the elite the elite

15:56

training sort of history.

15:58

And and that would typically be taking,

16:00

you know, a couple of hours, not four

16:02

and a half hours. And and

16:04

that's one of those problems, like I mentioned

16:06

earlier, about the extrapolation of just

16:08

saying, yeah, everybody should do this.

16:10

We'll just kind

16:11

of, you know, translate

16:13

this for the for the less accomplished

16:15

runner. I think this

16:17

is arguably one of the most

16:19

important issues in marathon

16:21

training because it affects almost

16:23

everybody. It affects even

16:25

competitive runners, and it affects

16:27

runners who have never done a marathon before.

16:29

And that's just rushing the

16:31

training, and really

16:33

you know, thinking that they can go from

16:36

that nine mile long run to,

16:38

you know, maybe eighteen to

16:40

twenty miles, whatever it might be in

16:42

the course of a training cycle. And

16:44

this really speaks to the idea that, you know,

16:46

something I say often is that there's no

16:48

couch to marathon program. There's

16:50

a couch to five k program. there's

16:52

a very good reason why you can't go

16:54

find a couch marathon program. And that's

16:56

for exactly the reason that

16:58

you were discussing previously, which is

17:00

you need to train for

17:02

not just the

17:03

marathon, you need to train for marathon

17:05

training. That's

17:06

exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. You need

17:08

to already be capable to a

17:11

certain extent. And, you know,

17:13

your your kind of benchmark is,

17:15

let's be comfortable running a half

17:17

marathon, thirteen point one miles

17:20

before we start the marathon cycle.

17:22

I'm I'm a little bit less aggressive. I like

17:24

to see runners with at least a double digit

17:26

long run. Let's at least be comfortable running

17:28

ten or eleven miles. I

17:30

think that's the bare minimum. But ultimately,

17:32

I think slightly more

17:34

is better. If you're comfortable running

17:36

fifteen miles for a long run,

17:38

I don't really think you're gonna struggle with marathon

17:41

training. I think you're gonna pick up on

17:43

it very well and going from fifteen

17:45

to twenty miles is probably not gonna be

17:47

that big of a jump. One question

17:49

I had for you about this is,

17:51

you know, I think a lot of us

17:53

have heard that before you

17:55

run a marathon, you should try to run a

17:57

twenty mile long run. And I

18:00

think that's a good sort of

18:02

general benchmark, but at the

18:04

same time, there's a lot of cases where

18:06

that rule just completely falls

18:08

apart. And it has to do with the

18:10

amount of time that you're running. Do you

18:12

have a certain limit

18:14

on a long run when it comes to the time

18:16

on your feet that you're

18:17

spending? I do. I mean,

18:20

I think Again, it will partly

18:22

depend on whether somebody is

18:24

completely new to running or

18:26

they've had a little bit more experience because

18:28

sometimes people have got

18:30

quite a good level of experience, but they're

18:32

just, you know, not hugely

18:35

fast. And so then they're gonna be able to take a little

18:37

bit more time on their feet because they've done

18:39

that before than somebody

18:41

who is coming to that distance for the

18:43

first time. But I usually say somewhere

18:45

between sort of three and and three and

18:47

a quarter hours is about how

18:49

long I would want someone to do

18:51

their long run to sort of

18:53

cap it at that distance.

18:56

However, I think this

18:58

approach that is so commonly seen in marathon programs

19:01

where you start at this

19:03

low distance and then

19:05

you build up and you build it up and you

19:07

build it up and up and up and, you know, and

19:09

then what happens is that your longest

19:11

ever run happens before

19:13

your longest ever race. There's

19:16

a small period in

19:18

between the taper, you know, where you

19:20

recover from that. But really, I

19:22

like to see people getting to that peak

19:24

marathon long run distance a lot

19:26

earlier in the program because

19:28

they've reached that point. They haven't had to rush

19:30

up this really, really steep slope to get there.

19:32

They can then back off and they can

19:34

focus a little bit more on building

19:37

the, you know, the the sort of

19:39

threshold pace and and some speed and

19:41

start to build some quality training in there

19:43

without having to keep going with

19:45

this really exhausting long run at the same time,

19:47

then come back, revisit that

19:49

distance again, back off

19:51

again, and come back and start to

19:53

throw some quality training into the

19:55

long run as well as it gets nearer to the race so

19:57

that you're doing a little bit more of that

19:59

long run at

20:01

marathon goal pace.

20:04

And I think that's probably one of the biggest

20:06

differences between the programs that

20:08

I've I've put in in the book

20:10

is that you don't get

20:12

to peak long run as the

20:15

sort of last long run before the taper.

20:17

It it happens a bit earlier into

20:19

the into the training cycle

20:21

than that.

20:21

think a lot of runners might hear this

20:24

and think that this makes the

20:26

training more advanced. Oh,

20:28

I'm going to get to my longer,

20:30

long run, even earlier. I'm gonna

20:32

work on all this different type of

20:34

speed work. I'm gonna put quality running

20:37

within my long run. Oh,

20:39

that's sounds like an advanced move. And and

20:41

I think it's actually easier. I

20:44

think it's actually easier to

20:46

to go with this approach than

20:48

the more traditional approach where you spend

20:50

most of the training cycle building

20:52

your long run fairly aggressively

20:55

from somewhat of a

20:57

low mileage long run because

20:59

the injury risk is a lot higher,

21:01

you're you're really just rushing the

21:03

training and you're not gonna have

21:05

as much fitness at the end of that cycle

21:08

as you would with this more

21:10

varied approach. And it

21:12

is just sort of like you know,

21:14

I would rather study for

21:16

thirty minutes a day for two months

21:18

leading up to a big exam rather

21:20

than an hour a night

21:22

for one week leading up to the exam.

21:24

It's sort of like that approach.

21:26

It's cramming for the marathon. And

21:28

when you cram for a marathon, bad

21:31

things can happen. Your injury risk is

21:33

gonna be higher, your performance is is

21:35

gonna be worse. And I honestly

21:37

think you're just not gonna have as much fun out there

21:39

on the race course because if you want a marathon

21:41

to feel good, if you want to

21:43

have a good time,

21:45

I think it's in your best interest to be in

21:48

as good of shape as

21:50

possible because then it won't be as stressful

21:52

for you.

21:52

Absolutely. And the confidence that you get

21:55

from having already hit quite

21:57

a, you know, decent long run

21:59

distances earlier on in the program.

22:01

You know, there's not this sort of daunting sense

22:03

of this, you know, you do sixteen miles

22:05

and it's really exhausting and then you've

22:07

got to do eighteen, and then you've still

22:09

got this big twenty coming up, you know, and it's all

22:11

sort of it feels very

22:14

yeah. Sort of intimidating.

22:17

And I think the confidence you get from

22:20

doing longer runs sort of

22:22

earlier in the cycle because you know that

22:24

you're get some time where you're not gonna have

22:26

to go out and do an even

22:28

even longer one. You're gonna get a little bit of

22:30

time off from that before you come

22:32

back to So I agree

22:34

with you that it is sort

22:37

of a kind of more

22:39

approachable way of

22:41

training also think mentally,

22:44

it's the variety that you

22:46

get, you know, the focus is is

22:49

changing throughout the program rather than it

22:51

just all going in one direction. You know, you're

22:53

bringing in little aspects of

22:56

other training

22:58

attributes along the way. And I think that makes it sort

23:00

of more varied and

23:03

more

23:03

interesting. Yeah, for sure. I mean,

23:06

it's just more fun to do.

23:08

Right? And it is almost the difference

23:10

between how a pro runner

23:12

might approach their training and how

23:14

someone who's just gonna try to get

23:16

this marathon in, you know, in the next

23:18

couple months, you know, by hell or

23:20

high water, where the

23:22

professional would probably be already

23:24

very comfortable running a substantial

23:26

long run. Their mileage is already relatively

23:29

high. And so it's almost like

23:31

training a bit more like a professional, but

23:33

scaled way back to a very approachable

23:35

level. And I wanna hit

23:37

hit on one thing that you said earlier

23:39

too. When I asked about this

23:41

myth that some people believe, oh, I

23:43

can't run a marathon, you did say that

23:45

there are some structural

23:47

limitations that people might have.

23:50

That would prevent them from being able to

23:52

train or raise some marathon. Can you

23:54

talk about some of those, you know, like, what

23:56

are the scenarios or the

23:58

very specific limitations where you might advise

24:00

a

24:00

runner, hey, you know, it may not be a

24:02

good idea to go for a marathon.

24:06

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think

24:08

it would it it's often things which have

24:10

been caused by by previous

24:12

injuries. So people

24:14

who have got very limited

24:16

ankle mobility is a big one,

24:18

which could have been through

24:21

breaks earlier fractures.

24:23

And sometimes bones

24:26

have been sort of fused

24:28

together in that healing process part of it.

24:30

As you know, yeah, we've had to sort of fuse this

24:33

bone and people just have not got that

24:35

that mobility through the ankles.

24:37

So then just not able to sort of roll through

24:39

the foot. Well.

24:43

And really, it is joint joint

24:45

issue. So it might

24:47

be people who've had knee

24:50

or or hip surgery replacements

24:52

as well. I mean, that that

24:54

said, I do know people who

24:56

have had our first scopes and

24:59

people who've had hip replacements from

25:01

Americans. I'm not sure I know anyone who's

25:03

had a knee replacement among Americans.

25:06

I think If they did,

25:06

their surgeon will probably be chasing them most of

25:09

the way. It's a good incentive to

25:11

run faster. Yeah.

25:15

But, yeah, I'm I'm sort of talking about

25:17

the bodies that have

25:20

have, you know,

25:22

got got asymmetries, which have

25:24

been caused by something that's

25:27

happened to the body, really,

25:29

that's that's created sort of a joint that just

25:31

wasn't doesn't move as it's meant

25:34

to. It it's quite hard

25:36

to to be too

25:38

specific about you know, you wouldn't

25:40

wanna rule anybody out

25:42

because equally, I know I've worked with someone who

25:44

with scoliosis, who's you

25:47

know, run very well. Lots of lots

25:49

of strength and

25:51

and mobility

25:53

work. Was necessary in order

25:55

to, you know, sort of even out

25:57

some of the

26:00

asymmetries and imbalances that

26:02

scoliosis caused. But It's

26:04

certainly something that you need to to think about

26:06

if you're gonna be, you

26:08

know, raising your game and going for

26:10

a marathon. If you have had injuries or

26:12

or sort of surgical kind

26:15

of interventions, particularly

26:17

on the on

26:17

the in the lower limb. Yeah,

26:20

for sure. I'm kinda with you. I I

26:22

hate to count anybody out

26:25

from the marathon because I've seen

26:27

people overcome amazing

26:30

adversity to finish twenty six point two

26:32

miles. Yeah. You know, it's

26:34

it's very likely that with enough drive

26:36

an ambition and a good physical therapist

26:38

and strength training program, you

26:40

probably can overcome a lot and likely

26:42

run that marathon, but like you said,

26:44

it does require you to up your

26:46

game. It requires you to not

26:48

cut corners, really seek Massive

26:50

commitment level. A hundred percent. Yeah.

26:53

Real really seek out the help of a good

26:55

physical therapist or strength coach

26:57

depending on what your limitation might

26:59

be. Even if you think you can't

27:01

run a marathon, you probably

27:03

can with just a little bit of extra

27:05

strategic work. Now

27:07

Sam, I have occasionally

27:09

heard complaint

27:11

about running marathons. And this one usually comes

27:13

from the non marathon or

27:15

crowd that if you're someone who

27:18

runs marathons, you are aging

27:20

yourself faster than you

27:22

have to. That just the act of

27:24

training for in racing marathons hastens

27:26

the aging

27:27

process. What are your thoughts on that? That's an

27:30

interesting one. I mean, I guess that's to do

27:32

with, you know, the

27:34

idea that that that

27:36

running creates oxidation in the

27:38

body, particularly, aerobic

27:40

level running is creating oxidation,

27:42

and oxidation is associated with

27:45

with aging, but at the same time that

27:47

running is creative or

27:49

stationary in the body. It's also, on the

27:51

other hand, stimulating the

27:54

release of more antioxidants. And

27:57

so it's not increasing the

27:59

sort of aging process in

28:01

that way. It is actually it's

28:03

creating a demand on the body and that

28:05

demand acts as a stimulus for the body to

28:07

respond to that extra demand. I mean,

28:09

it's really how fitness works in

28:13

lots of other aspects are the same. You

28:15

know, you create a challenge

28:18

that is higher than the

28:20

body can currently cope

28:22

with. And so if you do that at

28:24

the right level and you repeat

28:26

it often enough, then

28:28

the body says, right. I

28:31

need to be able to cope with this in the future she's gonna make me keep

28:33

doing this. And so then the body

28:35

responds by it by, you know, making

28:37

changes in in there. You know,

28:39

enzymes and hormones and

28:41

and tissue structure and

28:43

actually allows you to do that

28:45

thing better. As time

28:47

passes. And that really is the essence

28:50

of overload and

28:52

developing better fitness. So

28:54

I think the same is true in terms of

28:56

the factors that come into

28:59

aging and the I

29:02

mean, what I have done, which is is quite

29:04

an unusual thing in terms of marathon

29:06

training, is I have

29:09

included some sprint work

29:11

within the base phase. And

29:15

I think that kind of ties in with

29:17

this sort of aging issue a little bit

29:20

because what we do know

29:22

is that as we get

29:24

older, that we do begin to lose

29:26

muscle mass running

29:28

kind of, you know, marathon

29:30

pace running doesn't seem

29:32

to be enough to

29:35

prevent that atrophy, that loss of of

29:37

of muscle, muscle

29:40

volume and and tissue.

29:43

It's really only I mean, as you all know,

29:45

of course yourself, Justin, it's

29:47

a huge amount of it to do with with

29:49

strength training. But in terms

29:51

of running, actually

29:54

maximal pace running sprinting, whether

29:56

that's on the flat or whether that is on

29:58

a little uphill sprints, which some

30:01

listeners might have been become familiar with

30:03

that have been talked about quite a

30:05

lot over the last few years

30:07

just very short uphill sprints.

30:10

Are a really good way of kind

30:12

of creating the stimulus that keeps

30:15

muscle tissue strong and

30:17

and and develops that

30:19

that, you know, prevents that

30:21

decline really. And

30:23

so people might say, well,

30:25

that's a bit weird. You know, I'm not gonna

30:27

need to sprint. So why would you

30:29

put sprinting into a marathon

30:31

program? But putting it in

30:33

that base phase, so,

30:35

you know, your your there's

30:37

no kind of threshold work. There's no

30:40

VO2 max sessions in this in

30:42

this part of the program. It's all just about

30:44

the easy miles and, you

30:46

know, just kind of getting used to running it

30:48

on a consistent regular

30:50

basis. So you're not taxing your

30:52

body too much in in in anything

30:54

intense. And so just peppering

30:56

the program with some of these little sprints

30:58

is the perfect time to do it because

31:01

they're using a different energy system, you know,

31:03

they're they're creating a different stimulus don't

31:05

really leave you fatigued in

31:07

the way that doing a track session would,

31:09

you know, going around doing like four hundreds

31:11

or eight hundreds. Very tiring. But,

31:14

you know, this kind of thing, it's very short,

31:16

intense. It helps with

31:18

your your running form, and it really

31:20

really helping to kind of prevent that muscle

31:23

kind of atrophy that

31:25

is an inevitable

31:27

part of the aging process?

31:29

Yeah, I think that's really important

31:31

to discuss. It's both, you know,

31:33

what is happening at a

31:35

cellular level within your body when you do certain types of

31:38

training, and when we talk about

31:40

oxidation and the release of

31:42

stress hormones, like cortisol, part

31:45

of that is just the normal

31:47

stress adaptation process that's

31:50

required if you want to get stronger,

31:52

improve your endurance, build more mitochondria

31:54

in your cells. You

31:56

have to experience

31:58

some level of stress. And I think

32:00

this idea that you know, oh, running makes

32:03

you age faster is

32:05

because you've looked at some of

32:07

the the first order effects

32:09

of hard exercise? Oh, you

32:11

know, you you're more sore after a

32:13

run. Like, you've released all of these,

32:15

you know, hormones that are bad

32:17

for muscle growth and all that. But

32:19

they are the precursors to

32:22

the adaptation process. And

32:24

it's almost like we have to zoom out a little bit

32:26

further, just wait a little bit

32:28

longer until the body builds back

32:30

a little bit stronger with a little

32:32

bit more endurance. And then you're a little bit

32:34

more capable than like you said the next time you

32:36

go and do something silly like try to run

32:39

twenty miles and your body is a

32:41

little bit more prepared for

32:43

that. And without that stress,

32:45

you're never gonna get better. So I think

32:47

it's really important to recognize

32:49

that those ill effects are

32:51

actually needed and wanted

32:53

as part of the training process.

32:55

And then, of course, you know, with you talking

32:57

about sprints and strength training,

33:00

that kind of talks to the fact that

33:02

there's good training and there's bad training.

33:04

Right? You can train for a marathon in

33:06

a way that not very respectful

33:09

of your body, and it probably can

33:11

make you feel a lot worse

33:13

and maybe pacing the agent

33:15

process somewhat. Especially if you're not

33:17

really recovering from run to run.

33:19

But I think one of the other

33:21

great things about those those uphill

33:23

sprints you were talking about or even

33:25

even flat sprints is the

33:27

hormonal side of that. You know, that it gives your

33:29

body such a different

33:31

stimulus that it prompts your body

33:33

to release different hormones than you

33:35

would get if you did a long run

33:37

or a threshold workout. And I think

33:39

that's also important to

33:41

counteract some of that aging process

33:43

too. Yeah. I mean, in muscle, you know,

33:46

muscles work, you know, there's that sort of that

33:48

cyclical kind of cycling

33:50

in and out of different muscle fibers.

33:52

And An analogy

33:54

I've used in in the book is

33:56

is that, yes, you don't, you know, you're

33:58

not gonna sprint, maybe you're gonna sprint to the

34:01

finish line, of course. Or

34:03

maybe you'll need to just do a a

34:05

little kind of sprint to get around someone on a

34:07

narrow part of the course or something like

34:09

that. But really, the real benefit of

34:12

getting those fast twitch

34:14

fibers on board is that that cycling

34:16

process, you're just getting more hands on deck. And I'm

34:18

saying it's a

34:20

bit like you know, a tempting agency. Imagine your body's a tempting

34:22

agency and, you know, when the workload gets

34:24

really, really

34:26

hard and and bigger that, you

34:28

know, you need to kind of call in some temps to

34:30

come and and and take some of that

34:32

workload and help out. And you you've

34:34

actually just increased a pool of

34:36

available workers by getting

34:38

those muscles stimulated and

34:42

switched on. I

34:43

love that analogy, Sam. I might I might be stealing that and using

34:45

that in the future. That's brilliant. And

34:47

it it really highlights

34:49

the fact that your

34:51

body is such a complex system. We can't

34:54

just run slow all the time

34:56

and expect to be good at any

34:58

race or for that matter,

35:00

run fast all the time. You know, it's a

35:02

very complex system and we need

35:04

to be working on different energy

35:06

systems, be working on recruiting different

35:08

muscle fiber types, and and that is

35:10

really gonna be making us into a better

35:12

athlete. Now another

35:14

big myth I wanted to get your thoughts on,

35:16

this one comes across my coaching

35:19

desk on the regular. And that's these runners who

35:22

haven't run a marathon before, but they

35:24

have some

35:26

experience but they're terrified of injuries. They think that if they're

35:28

gonna train for a marathon, they

35:30

are undoubtedly going to get hurt

35:33

injuries are just an inevitable part of the

35:36

training process. And this

35:38

idea is holding them back from registering

35:40

for their first marathon and training for

35:43

it. They just think the volume's gonna be too high or

35:45

the whole training process is gonna be

35:47

so advanced that their body's not gonna be able

35:49

to handle it. Do you think

35:51

injuries are inevitable in training? And how can we address

35:54

this? Yeah, it's a

35:55

really, really good question. I

35:58

absolutely don't think that they're inevitable. It

36:00

all depends on the approach,

36:02

going back to this idea

36:04

of the traditional marathon program

36:08

where you know, you've got this really steep mountain to

36:10

climb just to get from where you are now

36:12

to where you need to be.

36:14

And you've got this kind of quite

36:17

contained time period in which to do that.

36:19

Well, that's kind of setting you yourself

36:22

up for injury right

36:24

there. You know, you are trying

36:26

to fit in an awful lot

36:28

into a short period of time if you are if you're

36:30

not suitably

36:32

trained to train for the marathon like

36:34

you were saying earlier, you know, it's almost like you need

36:36

to kind of do a training program to

36:38

get yourself fit for the marathon training

36:40

program because it is gonna be a

36:43

short period of time. So

36:46

I think taking away that that pressure on yourself

36:48

by being well prepared

36:50

like what we were saying, you know, maybe ten,

36:52

eleven, twelve miles is really

36:54

distance for you at the time you start the program. You're already,

36:57

you know, really helping yourself avoid

36:59

injuries. So I think that's that's

37:01

one part of

37:04

it. Another part of it is that

37:07

people's mentality when they

37:09

are in the marathon training

37:12

block it tends to

37:14

sort of slip into panic very,

37:16

very quickly. And so when an injury, it's

37:18

probably an injury, but, you know, the

37:21

beginnings of an injury start up. You know,

37:23

it's like, I can't stop. I can't

37:25

stop because I've got to get to

37:27

twenty miles by week. Ten

37:29

or whatever, you know. And so it'll just kind of keep

37:32

plowing on through this thing which start, you know, it's

37:34

just a little bit of a niggle in the

37:36

Achilles or a bit of

37:38

a sawny. Keep on running through it. Keep following the program

37:40

doggedly, whatever it says you gotta do. Just keep

37:42

on doing it. And then that thing

37:44

that was just

37:46

a little Little color niggle is gonna turn

37:48

into that full blown injury

37:50

that you could have avoided. If you just

37:52

step back took

37:54

a little bit of time out, just to dress it, head sports,

37:57

massage, maybe, you know, getting

37:59

to a check over to make sure that

38:01

you've got, you know, any

38:04

strength deficits that you need to work on, that kind of thing.

38:06

I think that that sort of

38:08

head in the sand approach

38:12

is what leads to so many injuries

38:14

during marathon training. And

38:16

and we can avoid that.

38:19

There's a lovely term which is that if

38:21

you listen to the whispers, then you won't have

38:23

to hear the screams. And I think a

38:25

lot is a very good kind of just

38:27

ignoring those whispers, drowning them out,

38:29

and and then we we wait

38:31

until it's much later

38:32

on, and we have to than

38:35

put out with the screams. I like that analogy too. Another one

38:37

I might be stealing from you. Well, I

38:39

stole that from someone. They're

38:43

they're great analogies that really help us wrap

38:45

our head around this topic.

38:48

And I think it's such an

38:50

interesting perspective because

38:52

I see rushing your

38:54

training and trying to, you

38:56

know, get up to about twenty miles and get

38:58

that long run distance up. I look

39:00

at that as almost the same psychological phenomenon

39:03

as someone who gets

39:06

a slight niggle during marathon

39:08

training and

39:10

thinks that all of their training is ruined. not gonna able build long

39:12

run at the same, you know,

39:14

rate as their training plan says

39:16

they should be. It's almost like this

39:20

this inability to slow down, this inability

39:22

to sort of take the longer

39:24

term view on your training. And

39:26

I think that longer term outlook

39:30

can be so helpful when it comes to injury prevention because

39:32

it prevents you from

39:34

taking those risks with your

39:36

running that often lead to

39:40

injuries. Going out for that long run when you do have a nickel,

39:42

only because you think you have to,

39:44

because your training plan says you do.

39:47

Can you speak to this idea of of being a

39:49

little bit more flexible with

39:51

your training so that you're

39:53

not rushing

39:54

it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's very much that idea that the program.

39:56

It's again, you know, that the

39:58

program knows you. The program

40:00

knows best. It knows you

40:03

know, above everything else. It knows

40:05

that you have to do everything that

40:07

is written on this

40:10

page. And that's the only way know, it's like it's

40:12

it's almost a sort of slightly mystical thing.

40:14

Isn't it that this if that if you do

40:16

anything that is not on that program,

40:19

or you miss something that's on it, that everything is

40:21

gonna fall apart. And when we just

40:24

step back and and think

40:26

about that, you know, we can easily see that that's just

40:28

not just not the case. I mean, you

40:30

probably, like

40:32

me, have

40:34

not have done a number of marathons where you, you know,

40:36

did you ever do a marathon in fact

40:38

where you did every single thing

40:40

that was on the program

40:43

that you'd written yourself or that you were

40:45

following? Of course not.

40:46

No way. No. I mean, that's right.

40:48

And and, you know, you'll you'll

40:51

get people sort of you know, I've worked

40:53

with people and they'll come come to say, well, yeah, my thought

40:55

was herring, but, you know, I

40:57

had I had my eighteen miler on the

40:59

plan, so I just did it. And

41:01

now I, you know, now I can't walk. I got

41:04

it. You know what? Why did you do

41:06

that? And so

41:08

I think it's just much it is much

41:10

more like bringing that that that

41:12

that that bringing the chapter that I I

41:14

mentioned that I wanted to get in the book

41:16

about all about you, it's just remembering that,

41:19

you know, you are part of this process and

41:21

your needs apart this process and if your body needs rest,

41:23

but the program says don't rest,

41:25

it's it's you that you

41:27

need to listen to. It's your

41:29

body that you need to listen to. If you're, you know, you've got a niggle

41:31

and you're concerned about that, you

41:34

know, address

41:36

that specific thing and then rearrange

41:38

what surrounds. And if you miss a

41:40

couple of things, well, you know, we'll let

41:42

everybody into the the secret that

41:46

programs are always designed with, you know, with an assumption that

41:48

not every single thing in the entire plan

41:50

is gonna be ticked off. You know, we we

41:52

we kind of know that when we write these

41:55

plans. Yeah. Yeah. I I write what I call

41:58

perfect ideal plans, but you don't

42:00

have to follow it perfectly to to

42:02

get there. I

42:05

wanna ask you another another myth. And and

42:07

this one, this one's a bit of a fun one. And

42:09

and it kinda speaks to this fact that, you know,

42:11

us runners, we can be a little bit type

42:13

a. We wanna we wanna execute the plan

42:15

perfectly. We never wanna get

42:18

injured. And there's some

42:20

runners who who really

42:22

want to abstain from all

42:24

alcohol when they're training for a

42:26

marathon. Now, I live in Denver,

42:28

Colorado. We have a lot of breweries

42:30

around here. I like myself a good

42:32

beer. Can we responsibly enjoy a little bit of alcohol when we're

42:34

a marathon training? I think we can.

42:36

I mean, I have to confess here

42:40

that I run a a weekly group, run from a

42:42

brewery. You'd

42:43

fit in well in Denver. So

42:45

I'm kind of yes. So,

42:47

you we meet the brewery, we go for a run,

42:50

and then we come back and we

42:52

drink beer. But in fact,

42:54

the brewery very kindly

42:57

created us a beer that they called the

42:59

Runners Brew, which is

43:02

just one point six percent alcohol,

43:04

and that's absolutely fantastic. It's just

43:06

the perfect just enough to kind get

43:08

a little bit of a

43:10

relaxing buzz, but not so

43:12

much alcohol that you wake up feeling

43:15

really dehydrated and jaded the next day. But

43:17

yeah, to go back to the point, I mean, we're already

43:21

lots of that.

43:24

I'm not I'm not gonna argue for alcohol being, you

43:26

know, a kind of an a lecture of health

43:28

for for sure. You know, that that's there's

43:32

just not any evidence to to suggest that it is.

43:35

But by being

43:37

regularly active, we're already

43:40

kind of counteracting a lot of the effects of

43:42

alcohol. There's been some studies on

43:44

this, you know, sort of showing that

43:46

the people who are

43:48

regularly active kind of

43:51

negate some of the

43:53

detrimental health effects of alcohol.

43:55

And I think it's

43:57

it's very much an an

44:00

issue of, you know, if you're gonna

44:02

deny yourself everything that you

44:04

enjoy doing just all in, you know,

44:06

in aid of your of your

44:08

marathon. I think you're gonna end up

44:10

being, you know, quite

44:12

uptight and

44:14

quite you know, unhappy and and maybe just a little bit

44:16

kind of overly focused on

44:18

this this one thing. And,

44:20

you know, most of us who

44:24

who are in a in

44:27

this conversation, I imagine we're we're

44:29

not trying to chime for the

44:32

Olympic trials. We're not

44:34

we wanna do the best that we can,

44:36

but we are people with other

44:38

things in our lives. And I the

44:40

idea that anybody should prescriptively tell you,

44:42

oh, you must not do that, you

44:44

must not drink alcohol, you must

44:47

not, you know, eat

44:50

chocolate cake

44:52

because you're trying to do marathon. What are you doing?

44:54

You know, you're trying to train for marathon, you shouldn't do

44:56

that. I don't think anybody's really got the

44:58

right to tell to tell people to do that

45:01

to do that. And I definitely

45:04

will enjoy a beer or a glass of

45:06

wine, you know, a couple of times a

45:08

week. And

45:10

I I don't think that

45:13

I would want to be the person

45:16

advising other runners not to

45:18

do that for the sake of their

45:20

marathon success.

45:22

Oh, I feel like a politician.

45:24

But I think it's fascinating. III

45:27

don't think I've heard this before

45:30

that running negates some of the effects, negative

45:32

effects of alcohol. So, hey,

45:34

Sam Murphy said that I can drink as

45:36

much booze as I

45:37

want, as long as I'm

45:39

running a lot. Right? Is that the

45:41

lesson here? I'll find you the

45:44

study, Jason. I'll find you the

45:46

study because I

45:48

I did write something about it

45:50

when when it came out and, you

45:52

know, I found found it, you

45:54

know, quite interesting

45:56

and and hardening piece

45:58

of

45:58

research. So I will find that

46:01

for you, and and I'll share it with

46:03

you. Yeah. We'll include it in the

46:05

show notes I think it's amazing. It's it's

46:07

music to many runners ears.

46:09

But of course, as long as you're

46:11

being responsible with it, as

46:14

long I think the number one negative effect might be

46:16

the disruption to your sleep, which is

46:18

really important for

46:20

recovery. So for any runner

46:22

who's training really hard right

46:24

now, probably wanna limit your

46:26

alcohol intake so you can still get a good

46:28

night sleep that

46:30

same

46:30

night. Yeah. Definitely. Sleep is really important. And also,

46:32

yeah, it's, you know, the day that you've done your

46:34

long run is not the day to then go

46:36

and, you know, drink five

46:38

pints a bit. It's, you know, that's when you

46:41

you've created, you know, this

46:44

this series of

46:46

breakdowns of different substances,

46:48

and you've got, you know,

46:51

metabolites and inflammation

46:53

in the body. And that repair process is

46:55

all part of the kind of

46:58

progress of your of your fitness.

47:00

And so

47:02

the dehydration and the effects

47:05

on growth hormone that come

47:07

from heavy drinking. But

47:10

it's interesting, you know, that a lot of the studies that have been done on

47:12

the effects of drinking have

47:15

used incredibly high

47:18

volumes of alcohol. I mean, the sort of volume where you really

47:20

would be on a massive binge. I mean, it's not about

47:22

going and having like one or two

47:25

beers after Iran. I mean, it's when

47:27

I looked into this,

47:30

some of the studies were just, you know,

47:32

crazy amounts of alcohol that I just

47:34

don't think anyone who's interested in their

47:37

health and they're running would really be

47:39

drinking

47:39

anyway. Yeah, it's always funny looking

47:42

at how those studies were put

47:44

together because yeah,

47:46

first of all, they're usually with like

47:48

a handful of college

47:50

aged

47:51

men, which certainly skews the

47:53

results. But I'm not known for their

47:55

drinking, of course. No. No. Never. Never.

47:57

I would I would never run a Saturday race

47:59

and then go out with my friends in

48:02

college. That never happen, Sam. But, yeah,

48:04

it it's really interesting

48:06

because some of those the

48:08

volumes used, you know,

48:10

it's like 678 plus

48:12

individual alcoholic drinks. And,

48:14

you know, I I think for a

48:16

college aged guy,

48:18

like, yeah, you're probably going out and and having too much fun.

48:20

But for most adults, that is

48:23

a little bit much. Yeah.

48:26

Yeah. Well, this was really fun, Sam. And I'm glad

48:28

that you're on board with a little bit

48:30

of responsible drinking because I think

48:33

it'd be hard to live here in Denver and not enjoy the brewery

48:36

scene while you're training.

48:38

Your book, run your best marathon, your

48:40

trusted guide to training and racing better is

48:43

is such a comprehensive look at modifying

48:46

marathon training to work

48:48

for you. So thanks so much

48:51

for releasing this into the world. I'll have

48:53

a link to your book in the show

48:55

notes on the strength running site. But

48:58

Sam, thanks so much for for joining me and

49:00

and talking more about the marathon and

49:02

and all these myths that sometimes hold us

49:04

runners

49:04

back. Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure.

49:06

I've really enjoyed it. Thanks, Jason.

49:09

Thanks for listening my friends. If you found

49:12

value in this episode, I would so

49:14

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52:57

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