0:00

Ready, set,

0:03

go! This is episode 329 with

0:05

the former head strength coach for

0:09

the Los Angeles Lakers, a doctor

0:11

of physical therapy, the founder of

0:13

the performance facility TD Athletes Edge,

0:16

and my partner on our

0:18

new durability program, Run Strong,

0:20

coach Tim DeFrancesco. Welcome

0:31

to the Strength Running Podcast. I'm

0:33

your host, coach Jason Fitzgerald, and

0:36

my singular goal is to help

0:38

you improve your running by getting

0:40

stronger, racing faster, preventing more injuries,

0:42

and achieving more of your goals.

0:45

I'm a monthly columnist for Trail Runner Magazine,

0:47

formerly a 239 marathoner, and

0:50

creator of the Performance Training Journal,

0:52

now on Amazon. You can learn

0:54

more about me and strength running

0:57

at strengthrunning.com. And if

0:59

you enjoy this show, please support our

1:01

partners who are offering you some great

1:03

deals on amazing products that are going

1:05

to help your performance and your overall

1:07

health. First is my

1:09

favorite way to hydrate, Element.

1:11

Element is a delicious, sugar-free,

1:14

high-sodium electrolyte mix with a

1:16

thousand milligrams of sodium. I

1:19

love this stuff because it's perfect

1:21

for endurance runners who are sweating

1:23

a lot, drinking a lot of

1:25

water, and because of that, can

1:27

be susceptible to electrolyte imbalances. If

1:29

you happen to have a high sweat rate or

1:31

very salty sweat like I do, you're gonna want

1:33

all 1000 milligrams of sodium

1:36

included in Element. Electrolytes play

1:38

a key role in helping

1:40

you avoid dehydration, dizziness, cramps,

1:42

and tiredness, especially after long

1:44

runs or workouts. And

1:46

Element is used by the military,

1:49

law enforcement, professional sports teams, and

1:51

they're the official hydration partner of

1:53

Team USA Weightlifting. It's that

1:55

good. Get your free sample pack

1:57

with any purchase at drink.element.com.

2:00

lmnt.com/Strength Running. They're gonna let

2:02

you try every single flavor

2:04

before you decide what to

2:06

commit to. That's

2:09

drinklmnt.com/Strength Running for

2:11

your free sample

2:13

pack. Next,

2:15

we are sponsored by Prevonex, the only

2:17

supplement company I trust. With

2:19

third-party testing of ingredients and finished

2:22

products, plus donations to kids in

2:24

need, Prevonex is voluntarily putting themselves

2:26

under more scrutiny and holding themselves

2:29

to higher standards than others in

2:31

the industry. Create some

2:33

health for yourself at prevonex.com with

2:36

code Jason15 for 15% off your order.

2:40

You're gonna love their Joint Health Plus

2:42

product because it actually works. If

2:45

you have any issues with your ankles, knees, or hips,

2:47

know that Joint Health Plus reduces joint

2:50

pain and improves how you feel with

2:52

clinical double-blinded studies to prove it in

2:54

just seven to 10 days. So it's

2:56

perfect to try once to see if

2:58

it's effective for you. Try

3:00

it now at prevonex.com and use

3:02

code Jason15 for 15%

3:04

off your purchase. My

3:07

guest today is Dr. Tim DeFrancisco.

3:10

He spent over 60 years as the head strength

3:12

and conditioning coach for the Los Angeles Lakers in

3:14

the NBA. He has a bachelor's

3:17

in exercise science and athletic training and

3:19

a doctorate in physical therapy. He

3:21

has experience working with outpatient

3:23

sports medicine patients, elite athletes,

3:25

and everyone in between. He's

3:28

currently the founder and head

3:30

coach at TD Athletes Edge,

3:32

a nationally renowned performance facility

3:34

known for its evidence-based and

3:36

scientific approach to training, nutrition,

3:38

and recovery. In this

3:40

episode, we're talking more about injuries,

3:42

how to build durability, why strength

3:44

training is probably the missing ingredient

3:46

in your training, and a

3:48

special offer on our newest project,

3:51

Run Strong. Tim brings his

3:53

extraordinary expertise and experience and his

3:55

knowledge of strength training to the

3:58

everyday runner, building a durability. program

4:00

that's going to keep you healthy

4:02

and maximize your running performances. We're

4:05

offering a special launch discount of 15% with

4:07

code RUNSTRONG15 that's

4:11

valid through this Sunday December 10th.

4:14

Go to tdathletesedge.com

4:18

slash run dash strong.

4:21

There is a link in the show description

4:23

or on the Strength Running site if you just want to

4:25

click it and you'll be

4:27

able to check out the program,

4:29

everything that's included, watch our hype

4:32

video, and start your journey to

4:34

healthy pain-free running. And

4:36

now without further delay please

4:38

enjoy my conversation with Tim

4:40

DeFrancesco. All

4:42

right Tim you're here welcome back to

4:44

the podcast. So good to be back

4:46

Jason I appreciate it. Yeah well

4:48

you're back after a little over

4:50

two years. We sat down to

4:52

talk a little bit more about

4:54

why runners should strength train. And

4:56

so Tim just to be upfront I had

4:59

already drank the Kool-Aid. I didn't need to

5:01

be convinced. The data and the real-world results

5:03

were clear. But you

5:05

know in my coaching practice I still see this

5:07

as a problem among a lot of runners. You

5:10

know we simply don't strength train enough and

5:12

that's a big reason why the annual injury

5:14

rate among runners is as high as 75%.

5:17

It's just a staggering number.

5:20

So I want to spend a little

5:23

time today on the specifics of why

5:25

getting stronger is such a powerful tool

5:27

to build injury resilience and durability. So

5:30

maybe we can start with what you

5:32

see in the real world. Because as

5:34

a strength and conditioning coach you're in

5:36

the trenches working with runners and athletes

5:39

to help them stay healthy. So you

5:41

know what kind of results or real-world

5:43

examples or case studies have you seen

5:46

in your work? Yeah

5:48

so most of the time

5:50

when we have somebody that

5:52

comes to work with us in the first

5:54

place it is due

5:57

to them being on kind of

5:59

this within this vicious cycle of

6:03

having an injury, maybe

6:05

getting it bandated or fixed

6:07

up a little bit, but then they

6:09

get back to their running or their

6:12

activity. In the case of runners or

6:14

triathletes, getting back to logging the miles,

6:16

and now the injury

6:18

crops up again, or a compensatory

6:21

injury happens from that. And

6:23

oftentimes we find that either

6:27

physical therapy based route or a

6:30

personal trainer route that they go

6:32

on does not necessarily take into

6:34

account the true

6:37

durability that needs to be built up in

6:39

these tissues and these structures and understanding kind

6:41

of what the building

6:43

blocks are for a runner specifically.

6:46

And that is where in our

6:48

first conversation, it just led

6:50

me to time and time again, having these

6:53

runners, triathletes, and

6:55

other either competitive

6:58

or recreational athletes come in with

7:00

these lower body nagging injuries that

7:02

were really non-contact. So they're repetitive

7:04

type chronic injuries that would crop

7:07

up. And it just led me

7:09

to kind of defining

7:11

these five plus one or six

7:13

total zones of lower body durability.

7:16

And we'll get into those

7:18

in a bit within the conversation. But to

7:22

answer your question, I think what ended up

7:25

really beginning to happen and

7:27

sort of snowball was once we began

7:29

to, as you

7:31

alluded to you seeing this happen so often

7:34

as well, is many

7:37

times runners are given a prescription

7:39

of rest, ice, stretch,

7:42

maybe take a pill, maybe get a shot, some

7:45

combination of those, and then cross your fingers

7:48

that you've given it enough time so

7:50

that when you go back, it's not gonna come back.

7:53

And so many of us and so many of the

7:55

people that we've worked with have been sort of given

7:57

that guidance and then it just comes back. So they

7:59

go try. try another clinician or

8:01

another prescription of a certain stimulus

8:04

or exercise of that kind of

8:06

thing. But very often they're

8:08

not given the guidance

8:11

to truly embrace and

8:13

work on the strength training that it takes

8:16

to build the durability in these tissues. So

8:18

time and time again, we've had so many

8:20

runners that have just sort of said like,

8:23

I've thrown my hands in the air. I'm just not meant to

8:25

be a runner, I guess. I get

8:27

this far in my training and this

8:29

hamstring always comes up, this Achilles always

8:31

comes up, this hip

8:33

flexor or whatever it might be

8:36

always comes up, calf strain so

8:38

common. And I've

8:40

tried everything. And the one thing that they

8:42

often haven't tried is the resistance training. So

8:44

time and time again, we've got this feedback

8:46

from people I cannot believe for eight, 12

8:49

weeks of work of direct strength training

8:53

that I'm suddenly not having

8:55

this issue. I'm running, I'm getting way past mile

8:58

three and every workout and I'm not having the

9:00

issue where I never could get past mile three.

9:03

So you know, the IT band syndromes and

9:05

those types of things. Suddenly

9:08

you start to get that feedback that wow, these

9:10

things are clearing up and they're going away and

9:12

they're staying in the rear view mirror. And

9:14

people just can't believe it. It's almost like it's too simple

9:16

or too good to be true. Well,

9:18

I think that's because a lot

9:20

of runners have experienced an injury

9:22

that has come back not

9:25

once or twice but seems to be

9:28

their injury of choice. You

9:30

know, even I have my own injury of

9:32

choice. You know, when I push the volume,

9:34

if I start running my runs too hard

9:36

and start not listening to the

9:38

expert advice on this podcast, I

9:40

end up hurting my IT band syndrome on

9:42

my left leg and that's

9:45

just the injury that I happen

9:47

to be most susceptible to. But

9:50

the frustrating aspect of just having

9:52

something come up over and

9:54

over again is something that I think most runners

9:56

can relate to. Can we dive into

9:58

a little bit more about... why that

10:01

happens because this is like you

10:07

go to physical therapy, you get healthy,

10:09

you're running without any pain, but

10:12

the pain comes back two weeks later,

10:15

three weeks later. What's going on there

10:17

and what is the most

10:19

likely mechanism for getting

10:22

out of that chronic injury cycle?

10:24

Yeah, so really what's happening there is a

10:27

term that is a little bit technical but

10:29

we'll kind of make it less technical as

10:31

we talk about it is acute to

10:35

chronic workload ratios get sort of

10:37

off and they're essentially what that

10:39

means is your what you're

10:42

doing acutely or immediately in the week that

10:44

you're in or the several days that you're

10:46

in right now is a big spike of

10:48

work of that action. So again

10:51

runners will be given the guidance of okay

10:54

while you're doing the physical therapy for this

10:56

try to back down the running so you

10:58

bring down your running volume almost to zero

11:00

sometimes if not just barely above zero but

11:03

way lower than what you've been typically doing

11:05

and you do that for a three, four,

11:07

five, six week period then it's like okay

11:10

I feel really good and the physical therapist

11:12

or the trainer that you're working with says

11:14

like let's go try it again and you

11:16

go very quickly to your to

11:19

spike that acute workload from you tapered

11:22

it way down to a very quick

11:24

spike and so the tissues in our

11:26

body that we're talking about here are

11:29

tendons, ligaments, bones primarily those are the

11:31

these nagging injury areas that were and

11:33

muscles that were talking about having to

11:36

find bulletproof for and those tissues do

11:38

not like to have a big spike

11:40

in an activity that is drastic like

11:42

that within a three, four, five, or

11:45

seven day period. They like a nice

11:47

chronic workload that stays steady

11:49

and if you're gonna rise it

11:51

up you're only rising it up say 10% over a week

11:55

and and then over four or six

11:57

weeks then you can rise it up

11:59

to that level if you're going to go at that

12:01

pace. So that's kind of the

12:03

technical way of saying you're just creating drastic

12:06

spikes of work. In

12:08

this case, what we're talking about is running activity

12:11

that those tissues had

12:14

been sort of taken away from

12:16

and now suddenly they're being asked to do

12:18

them in a

12:20

spiked way. And so those tissues

12:22

simply are basically saying when they

12:24

have the tendinopathies, the tendinitis

12:26

is the the itises and the strains

12:28

and the things that creep up that

12:31

we're really getting at here are really

12:33

your body's way of saying, hey, too

12:35

much too fast. You did not prepare

12:37

me to do this amount in this

12:40

short amount of time in this

12:43

frequency. And so that is

12:45

where the one and only tried

12:47

and true way to prepare those

12:50

tissues for and to be

12:52

durable and to have the resilience of

12:54

what they need to be able to

12:56

tolerate a gradual ramp up, which it

12:58

always should be, is

13:01

to strength train is to load them because

13:03

they need to bear load. So that's where

13:05

I always remind people is this

13:08

is really there's a lot of

13:10

logic to this. They are load bearing tissues. We

13:12

need to load them to bear load. It's

13:15

funny because, you know, I love

13:17

when the world of strength and

13:19

physical therapy meet the world of

13:21

running coaching because this very much

13:23

reminds me of Coach

13:25

Brad Hudson's amazing advice that your

13:28

risk of injury isn't actually at its highest

13:30

when you're running a lot of miles. It's

13:33

when you're building your mileage to get

13:35

to that peak because that's when the

13:37

load is changing and the load at

13:39

that point is not chronic. It is

13:41

it is acute and you are spiking

13:44

it to get to those higher mileage

13:46

levels. So the name of

13:48

the game is gradual. Now

13:50

I do have a weird question for you. I'm going to

13:52

go on a little tangent here. Now you

13:54

spend a little over six years, I

13:57

think, as the Los Angeles Lakers head

13:59

strength and conditioning. coach, your job was

14:01

basically to prepare those athletes for the

14:03

rigors of an NBA season. The

14:06

running rate of injury is higher

14:09

than basketball's rate of injury. Even

14:11

though basketball is a multiplane

14:15

of motion ballistic

14:18

plyometric sport with a lot of jumping, you

14:20

know, a lot of my listeners will know

14:22

that I was a basketball player before I

14:25

was a runner. That's my first love. You

14:28

know, we can talk about my through the legs

14:30

layup in eighth grade, my claim to fame. I'm

14:32

still talking about it at age 40. I

14:35

bet you won a lot of horse games with that.

14:37

Yes, yes, I am quite good at horse but. But

14:43

so I'm just very curious. How

14:45

do you go about getting

14:47

a basketball player to stay

14:50

healthy when it seems

14:52

so much so difficult to get a runner to

14:55

stay healthy when they're engaging in a sport that

14:57

might be, you know, at first look even a

14:59

little bit safer from the perspective of injuries? How

15:01

do you how do I wrap my head around

15:04

that? Right. And that's the

15:06

piece where now having

15:08

worked a tremendous amount

15:10

with both audiences in

15:13

our work here at TD athletes said

15:15

we have a very, very large audience

15:17

of runners and triathletes and we

15:20

during my time with the Lakers, obviously, I was primarily

15:23

working with elite basketball players, but

15:25

there actually is a bigger overlap

15:28

between the two audiences than people

15:30

would think they're quite different sports,

15:33

obviously, you know, from

15:35

the energy system or the cardiovascular

15:37

standpoint, there's much more of a

15:39

aerobic requirement for long distance runners.

15:43

Although with basketball, you do have to have

15:45

a balance of anaerobic and aerobic capacity there.

15:48

But it's

15:50

sort of essentials

15:52

that you have to think

15:54

about running as almost jumping from

15:57

one small little hops from one foot to

15:59

the next. propel yourself forward. So

16:02

in that sense, there's

16:04

a lot of jumping in both sports, if you were to

16:06

look at it that way. And

16:08

the zones of

16:11

lower body durability or the load-bearing zones

16:13

and the load-bearing tissues are the same

16:15

for the humans that are doing the

16:17

two things that are requiring a lot

16:20

from their lower bodies. So

16:22

those tissues of the

16:25

starting at the plantar fascia, achilles

16:27

and calf, and the hamstrings and

16:29

the adductors, and we'll really kind

16:31

of define these zones of lower

16:34

body loading that we are talking about

16:36

as we go here. But those

16:39

have a lot of similar requirements for

16:41

both sports. It's just the endurance athlete

16:43

has more of a chronic

16:47

load and requirement of those tissues that

16:49

happen over time, that build up. Whereas

16:52

the basketball athlete has a

16:55

bit more of acute and explosive

16:57

and intense, the intensity

16:59

is probably increased on those tissues.

17:02

Although the loading over time,

17:05

depending on the duration of and

17:07

mileage that a person is running

17:10

over time, they could be

17:12

very similar in some cases. And

17:15

so with that,

17:17

I think there's a lot of similarities. And for

17:19

me, the way that I looked at how do

17:21

we when I was

17:23

preparing NBA athletes to be ready for the court,

17:25

I did not think about the

17:28

primary objective being how do I

17:30

get them to run faster, jump

17:32

higher, and be more explosive. They

17:34

were already at an elite

17:37

level there. The key was how

17:39

do you build durability for them

17:41

to do that thing longer, more

17:43

sustainably with more health and

17:46

durability. And so I think

17:49

looking at runners, triathletes, and

17:51

anybody doing long distance running

17:53

sport is the same. You

17:55

want to look at how do we

17:57

prepare this person with these tissues. in

18:00

these lower body areas to be able to

18:02

withstand just a chronic load

18:05

of care that it needs to carry

18:07

that they need to carry versus

18:10

more intense and explosive work in

18:12

shorter amounts of time. I

18:14

love it. Thanks for entertaining me a

18:16

little bit with that kind of description

18:18

of the differences between the two. I

18:20

think we can use that to inform

18:23

our injury prevention efforts as runners

18:25

as well because I think we

18:27

can really embrace the chronic nature

18:30

of running and really

18:32

ensure that our training load

18:34

is chronic most of

18:36

the time because when it does have

18:39

those wild fluctuations then the

18:41

injury risk obviously increases. When

18:44

we're talking about durability

18:47

and how to stay healthy and all the

18:49

different ways that we can, like you said,

18:52

basically do our sport for longer

18:54

and with more health. I think

18:56

that's really the goal and I

18:58

think anyone who has experienced breaking

19:01

out of their injury cycle, I've

19:04

seen some crazy results that you

19:06

honestly wonder if I'm making them up. There's

19:10

one runner, Tony, that got in touch with

19:12

me. He told me he battled IT band

19:14

syndrome for years but then when he

19:16

started strength training in a methodical way, he doesn't

19:18

miss a single day of training now. You

19:21

just hear that and you're like, well, you went

19:23

from years of missed training and

19:26

consistent injury to now not missing

19:28

a day. There's

19:30

another runner, Rose, who recently emailed me who

19:32

couldn't run more than 30 miles a week

19:35

without getting hurt but as soon as she

19:37

started strength training, she's now healthy and running

19:39

over 50 miles a week

19:41

as an older athlete. I

19:44

think one of my favorite, almost

19:46

side benefits of strength training regularly

19:49

is that it allows you to make more mistakes in

19:51

your training because we all make mistakes in our training.

19:54

We go for a group run

19:56

with some friends and maybe we run

19:58

too fast. a little bit too

20:00

quick for us. Or they go for

20:02

a loop that wasn't intended and we

20:04

run a couple miles longer than what

20:06

we were supposed to be doing.

20:10

I heard from one runner who did

20:12

an unplanned marathon with all these sharp

20:14

uphills and downhills and a

20:16

total elevation gain of 2,300 feet, which

20:19

is starting to become substantial. And

20:21

then they told me they didn't even do

20:23

any hill training but she was able to

20:25

go wild on the downhills because she felt

20:27

that her muscles and joints could support it.

20:29

And I think that's the goal, right? Get

20:32

stronger, get more durable so you can do

20:34

more of what we actually love, which

20:37

is running. So, you

20:39

know, obviously this whole durability

20:41

piece is arguably the most

20:43

important aspect of strength training

20:46

and why runners should really get behind

20:48

it. But Tim, what are some of

20:51

the other benefits? If a runner starts

20:53

regularly strength training, what should they expect

20:55

besides enhanced durability?

20:58

Yeah, I mean, the

21:00

thing about being able to

21:02

prepare your muscles, tendons, ligaments

21:06

for not only durability, but also

21:08

for performance through resistance training is

21:11

often I think it's

21:14

like, which one are you aiming for? Which

21:16

one do you want? But you get both. And

21:19

so you absolutely are gonna build durability

21:21

while you build performance of those tissues.

21:23

So when you think about tendons and

21:25

especially tendons, but ligaments as well, tendons

21:28

attach into the muscles and

21:30

ligaments attach bones to bones and

21:33

create joint stability. But altogether,

21:35

tendons, ligaments, and muscles,

21:38

when they are stronger, they are

21:40

more springy, they're more taut, they

21:43

perform better in what they're most

21:45

of the time asked to do. So tendons are

21:47

often asked in most cases

21:50

to transmit forces to

21:52

propel you forward. So

21:54

as your foot hits the ground, tendons have

21:56

to, as they connect muscles to bones and

21:58

then go on up. the chain, they

22:00

have to be springy and taught

22:03

and strong to be able to

22:05

transmit and transfer that force

22:08

and create that propulsion

22:10

of your body forward into what

22:12

you're doing. And so when they

22:15

are more soggy, as I often say, or

22:17

like if you picture them like more like

22:19

a saltwater taffy that you're pulling apart and

22:21

it's like got a lot of give to

22:23

it, that's really a

22:25

soggy tendon does not help any of us

22:28

from a performance standpoint, certainly from a durability

22:30

standpoint, you are really

22:32

ripe for injury when you are not loading

22:35

those tendons and they're just not prepared for

22:37

the forces that's going through them. But

22:40

from a performance standpoint, I

22:42

often have people think about the guide wires

22:45

on a sailboat. If anybody can

22:47

picture that or has experience in

22:50

sailing, the guide

22:52

wires, the sail will just flop

22:54

over. There will be no

22:56

performance of that boat if the guide wires

22:59

are loose and have slack on them. So

23:02

in order to produce that

23:04

elastic springy kind

23:06

of forward action that you want to

23:08

get as you're moving your body forward

23:10

and hitting the ground and expecting the

23:13

ground to send you forward, but your tendons to

23:15

send you forward even more so, then they need

23:18

to be prepared to do that. And

23:21

that's where being able to do not only

23:23

resistance training, but some light sort of plyometric

23:25

work at times and things that include some

23:28

jumps and landings, again, running being think of

23:30

it as small hops from one foot to

23:32

another. So think of it as small jumps.

23:35

And if you're not doing some of that and all of

23:37

the above in your training, those tissues

23:40

are not ready to propel you as

23:42

you're trying to go forward faster and

23:44

with more efficiency. I

23:46

love this aspect of performance. And

23:49

it's probably an element of performance

23:51

that is more familiar to our

23:53

middle distance and shorter distance runners.

23:56

You don't need as much pop

23:58

or spring or respite. Responsiveness in

24:00

your stride when you're running an ultra

24:03

marathon or a marathon you

24:05

certainly need that the faster you're running

24:07

so So for the

24:09

shorter distance specialists and even for the

24:11

runners who are just more competitive and

24:13

more advanced, you know They're obviously running faster

24:15

even at the longer distances. And so

24:17

the ability to Store

24:19

and then release all of that free energy

24:22

I think it's fantastic and

24:24

you know, I've never heard of the

24:26

sailboat analogy, you know And I've definitely

24:28

used the the pogo stick analogy where

24:30

your legs are sort of like pogo

24:33

sticks And we definitely want your tendons

24:35

to be able to absorb And

24:38

hold some of that energy just like

24:40

the spring in a pogo stick So

24:42

that when you release that energy you

24:45

go really high you have a great

24:47

good powerful stride You cover more ground

24:49

with that stride and it's just a

24:52

much more economical Way

24:54

of running and that's really what

24:56

we're talking about is running economy It's like can

24:59

you run the same pace but

25:01

with using a lot less oxygen?

25:04

getting better springs through strength

25:06

training is probably the best

25:08

way of building

25:10

that springiness and You

25:13

know developing that running economy, which I think is is

25:15

one of the best things That

25:18

we should want as distance runners and even though

25:20

it's not as important for our marathoners All that

25:22

running economy is going to come in handy over

25:24

26 plus miles for sure. Exactly.

25:27

It's just sort of spread out It's

25:29

incrementally kind of spread out over that

25:31

time But it's still a

25:33

small improvement in that kind of

25:35

springiness of your lower body and

25:37

ability to Help propel you

25:39

forward even if it is at a

25:42

slightly less intense Stage

25:45

the it's still critical

25:47

because it gets sort of multiplied out

25:50

over the length of that marathon Right.

25:52

Can you imagine if every one of

25:54

your strides got an extra half centimeter

25:56

and you start doing the math of

25:58

like, okay I'm running

26:01

maybe 30,000 steps and each

26:03

step is a half centimeter. I just

26:05

saved 15,000 centimeters. I'll

26:10

let one of our listeners do the math on

26:12

that to see how long that is and what

26:14

that might represent in time. It's

26:16

just a simple way of thinking

26:18

about how improvements in running economy

26:21

can really affect your ultimate

26:23

finish time, which is what most runners really care

26:25

about. I think the

26:27

other less talked

26:29

about benefit of strength training,

26:31

particularly among endurance runners, is

26:34

body composition. I

26:37

tend to be your very cliche distance runner,

26:39

I'm like 138 pounds soaking wet. Looking

26:45

back on my running career, I

26:47

wish I had done a lot more strength training

26:50

because I think for thin runners,

26:53

building a little bit more muscle mass

26:55

and having a little bit more of

26:57

that strength and power is only going

27:00

to be beneficial in literally every regard

27:02

of your performance. It's not just your

27:04

injury resilience and durability, but it's also

27:06

your performance, it's your power. I

27:09

think it would have definitely come in handy when

27:11

I was running the steeplechase in college and

27:13

trying to get over those 36 inch high

27:15

barriers as a 5 foot 7 distance

27:17

runner. That wasn't good for me at

27:19

that time. Faster

27:23

runners are faster runners and I think

27:25

it is a little bit more impactful

27:27

for runners who, like me, tend to

27:29

be pretty thin. Yeah, I totally agree

27:31

with that. I think that somewhere

27:35

between a sprinter

27:38

that you would see in the Olympics

27:41

and the skin and bones

27:44

image of the, as you

27:46

said, the stereotypical or cliched long

27:48

distance runner

27:51

is a little bit of

27:53

a lean and mean kind of having

27:55

some bullet proof layers on the body

27:58

to absorb and propel. to

28:00

happen. And so you have

28:03

to think about sort of

28:05

finding that balance of how do you create

28:07

some of those bulletproof layers that help you

28:09

to absorb some of the forces and impact

28:12

of the sport, but also propel you. And

28:16

you can do that in a way where I

28:19

do often get this question of, well,

28:21

will it and I think runners are

28:23

famous basketball athletes are famous for saying,

28:26

well, I don't want to lift too much with my upper

28:28

body because it might affect my jump shot. And

28:30

that's a myth. And I've

28:32

debunked it many times. And some of the

28:35

greatest shooters of all time were big lifters

28:38

in the weight room and certainly weren't

28:40

doing bodybuilder type workouts, but doing resistance

28:42

training. So runners often,

28:44

I think I hear them saying, well,

28:47

I, my, my leg day is my,

28:49

the miles that I run. And

28:51

so it doesn't quite work that way.

28:53

There's, you're not getting the loading and

28:55

the strengthening of those tissues the way

28:57

you are by doing, you're working

29:00

them there. You're definitely using them. You're

29:02

loading them as you run for sure,

29:04

but you're not necessarily strengthening them and

29:07

building their durability or building their tolerance

29:09

and capacity. And even in some cases,

29:11

slight increases in size to help economy,

29:13

running economy and being able to propel

29:16

you forward. So you're just not getting

29:18

that by just running more. So

29:21

you have to add in that resistance training. And

29:24

I think that it's really important for

29:26

runners to kind of think about and

29:29

find that balance of, okay,

29:31

a runner is doing a lot with

29:33

their lower body over long, slow

29:36

distance periods of time, typically. And, and

29:38

how do we find a way to,

29:40

what I always tell people

29:43

that we work with is our goal with resistance

29:45

training is to make you feel stronger

29:47

and better when you're doing your running.

29:50

So not, and it's

29:53

not to overtake that. It's not to overpower that

29:55

or overshadow that or have you feel sore when

29:57

you're going running. It's done

29:59

correctly. if dosed correctly, it's actually gonna

30:01

help you to reduce the amount of soreness

30:03

that you're having while you run or after

30:05

you run because your muscles are more prepared

30:07

for that action. Yeah, you said

30:10

something really interesting, Tim. It was this

30:12

idea of you want your muscles to

30:14

be able to both absorb and propel.

30:17

And so that I think is just a

30:20

very interesting way of thinking

30:22

about the nature of the

30:25

role of muscles as we're running.

30:27

Of course, they're there to propel

30:29

you forward, but a lot of

30:31

runners don't think about the nature

30:33

of absorbing impact and

30:35

having a little bit more muscle. Obviously,

30:38

you're not gonna look like a power lifter or

30:40

a body builder and nor would you want to,

30:44

but having some of that muscle to

30:46

be able to absorb all of the

30:48

impact forces of running and then using

30:50

those same muscles and even connective tissues

30:52

to propel you forward. I

30:55

love bringing in like PTs and coaches

30:57

from other domains to sort of

30:59

get these interesting perspectives that can really

31:02

help us with running. And

31:04

one of the perspectives that I want to acknowledge

31:06

as really impactful for

31:09

me personally is this five plus

31:11

one zone of competence that you

31:13

have. I think this is

31:15

really great for conceptualizing how

31:17

we strength train as runners.

31:21

It sort of puts a structure around

31:23

our strength training. And that I

31:26

think is one of the most important things we

31:28

need to do as runners because a lot

31:31

of the times, let's be honest, we waltz

31:33

into the weight room in our short shorts and

31:35

we look around at the gym bros and

31:37

we don't even know what to do. Do we pick

31:40

up a barbell or a chair bell? Are

31:42

we gonna use bands? Am I

31:44

doing bicep curls today, Tim? What is going on?

31:48

So now I wanna bring up our

31:50

secret project that we have been working

31:52

on for quite a while. And it

31:54

was born from our initial

31:56

conversation about the five plus one

31:58

zones of competence. which sort

32:01

of blew my mind and folks

32:03

can go listen to our first podcast

32:05

episode that goes into depth on

32:07

that topic. But we decided

32:09

to create a running and strength training

32:12

program that focuses on durability. This was

32:14

your idea, Tim. You reached out to

32:16

me and I was like, yes, I'm

32:19

so excited because this is

32:22

one of the big marks I would love

32:24

to leave on the running world is if you

32:27

focus on injury prevention and

32:30

strength, you're actually focusing on

32:32

endurance. So thanks for getting...you're

32:35

actually focusing really on performance. If

32:37

you focus on staying healthy, you're

32:39

going to become a faster runner,

32:41

no doubt. So thank you for

32:44

inviting me to be part of this project. Well,

32:46

I mean, thank you. It's so great that

32:48

we can look back on that. And I

32:51

think that both of us, as you

32:53

got feedback from your podcast and as people

32:55

reached out directly to me from that discussion

32:58

that we had, as we framed the five

33:00

plus one zones of lower body

33:02

durability and competence is it was

33:04

so neat to kind of have that resonate with people. And

33:07

like you said, it was actually one of

33:09

the first times that I began to say

33:11

it out loud. I had been sort

33:13

of practicing it in our methodology here at

33:15

TD athletes edge. And we had been sort

33:17

of highlighting it and defining

33:19

these zones of lower body durability

33:21

based on the clientele and the

33:24

patients and the clients that we were working with. And

33:27

just realizing these are the areas. These are

33:29

the areas that you pointed that out is

33:31

it is important to think about not only

33:33

the performance of being able

33:35

to propel these tissues, helping to propel you

33:37

forward, but they do have to have to

33:39

absorb. And if they're

33:41

bearing load or absorbing every single

33:43

step, then they have to sure

33:45

be strong for a long time.

33:47

And that to me in

33:49

some ways is the difference between basketball athletes

33:52

and runners is the length of time that

33:54

these tissues have to be

33:56

durable and be able to withstand absorb

33:58

forces and load. is incredible

34:01

and it's a lot of force and load

34:03

to be able to absorb. So we just

34:05

put a definition on these common areas of

34:07

breakdown and said, look, in

34:09

your training, if you're not hitting these areas, because like

34:11

you said, so many people, runners,

34:14

basketball athletes, recreational,

34:18

triathletes, anybody are

34:22

recognizing, hey, I know I'm supposed to be doing some level

34:24

of resistance training. I go in, I do a couple of

34:26

these, a couple of those. I feel

34:28

like I got a little workout. Okay, I

34:30

checked that box. But often what I was

34:32

finding is people are just

34:35

not always accounting for these key

34:37

critical areas of that need direct

34:39

loading. And a little slight tangent

34:41

that I think is critical. We

34:43

in our industry of strength and

34:45

conditioning have gone way over to

34:47

one side of the pendulum where

34:49

we said, oh, every workout, every

34:51

exercise we do has to be

34:54

total body and functional. So

34:57

what happened there when we said, oh, functional,

34:59

total body, global exercises are the king, which

35:01

they're great, and they should be a part

35:03

of your workouts and your training.

35:05

But if they're the only thing you're

35:07

doing, you're not actually isolating these very

35:10

key six zones of lower body loading

35:12

and durability. And so what we were

35:14

finding is so many people that were

35:16

DIY-ing the process, they were

35:18

just missing three, four of these zones.

35:20

And then sure enough, they were lining

35:23

up with, oh yeah, I've

35:25

never once done an exercise that

35:27

loads my IT band. I've stretched it, but

35:29

I've never loaded it. I've never once, I've

35:32

had cap issues for years

35:34

and I've just stretched them, but I've

35:36

never strengthened them. And so I think

35:39

that that was where it kind of came about.

35:41

And you and I started to have

35:43

this conversation for the first time that

35:45

I ever really spoke of it. And

35:47

then we just got such great feedback.

35:49

And I thank you for being open

35:51

to saying, let's combine something that puts

35:53

together, once and for

35:56

all, a very defined and framed out

35:58

way, a calculated way of targeting. these

36:00

key critical areas specific for runners

36:03

and also gives runners

36:05

guidance and expert insights

36:07

on how to do the thing that you

36:09

let us off with, which is so important

36:11

and that you and I talked about, which

36:13

is even if you

36:16

load these areas, if you make the

36:18

mistake of dialing up your mileage and

36:20

doing just sort of throwing a bunch

36:22

of mileage at the wall and seeing

36:24

if it sticks, then you run the

36:26

risk of having those spikes that we

36:28

talked about. So combining these two things,

36:30

you're really creating this insurance plan for

36:33

yourself that very few runners are taking

36:35

a calculated approach on. That's what you

36:37

and I got so excited about it

36:39

because we are just so happy to

36:41

be able to look at all the

36:43

people that come to us saying, how

36:45

do I solve this and all

36:47

the sort of audits that we've done with runners

36:50

on either injuries and or

36:52

mileage descriptions of mileage and

36:54

kind of being able to

36:56

help people with how they

36:59

dose their mileage is the word I was looking for

37:02

there. But we have just

37:04

sort of we don't want to see those people struggling

37:06

anymore. And so we just said, let's create this. Yeah.

37:09

And you know, the the

37:12

structure and the calculated

37:14

approach that you mentioned,

37:17

I have seen how powerful and impactful that can

37:19

be on the running side of things. So, you

37:21

know, I see a lot of runners who are

37:23

doing similar things, you know, with their running, they're

37:26

doing a couple random workouts, their

37:29

mileage fluctuates, there's just less methodology

37:32

with their training. And

37:34

when you put a little structure

37:36

around their running, their performances typically

37:38

start dramatically improving, even in as

37:40

short as a month or two,

37:42

because all of a sudden, we

37:44

now have progression, all of a

37:46

sudden, we are focusing on the

37:48

right things. And what you're describing

37:51

is exactly that on the strength

37:53

side of things, we now have

37:55

a running specific durability focused program

37:57

that is going to focus on

37:59

all the areas that are important for

38:01

runners, while at the same time, you know, being

38:03

a comprehensive program. And I think one of the

38:05

things I was struck by was, after

38:08

you came out of the lab with,

38:10

you know, the workouts and routines for

38:12

this program, I was like, wow, this

38:14

is quite possibly one

38:16

of the most comprehensive strength programs

38:18

for runners that I've seen. And

38:21

I think runners are really gonna enjoy the video

38:24

library of exercises that you've put

38:27

together, and just the sheer variety.

38:29

So you're certainly not gonna get

38:31

bored in the gym doing a

38:33

program like this. No, absolutely.

38:35

And that's what myself and my team,

38:37

and I do need to give a

38:40

shout out to Coach Jess Mirasola on

38:42

our team, who is a runner, long

38:44

distance runner, and competitive runner and

38:46

triathlete herself, who has spent

38:49

15 plus years as a

38:51

strength and conditioning coach, working with

38:54

tons and tons of triathletes and

38:56

runners to build strength, but also

38:58

durability and nagging injury solutions. She

39:02

and I really sat down from our end of

39:04

the project to say, let's not

39:06

leave any stone unturned. Let's

39:10

put it all out here. There's

39:12

nothing that, there's no reason that a

39:15

runner that picks up this strength program,

39:17

the portion of this project and this

39:19

guide and program up and says,

39:22

well, it's kind of lacking in this area.

39:24

No, we did not want that to happen.

39:27

And so we spent a

39:30

lot of time, as you did on

39:32

your side, to think about just the

39:34

really expert, proper dosage of mileage in

39:36

terms of how you put these things

39:38

together to avoid those spikes, build the

39:40

durability, build the performance and efficiency

39:42

economy of running, and

39:44

have that in one package. And Jess

39:48

is just elite in her ability to

39:50

be thinking through those things. My background

39:52

of being able to think through these

39:54

zones all the way back to my

39:56

time working with Kobe Bryant and Steve

39:59

Nash and... and all

40:01

those players and thinking about how we do

40:03

this for people that

40:05

are applying it to running. And so

40:07

super excited about what we've been able to put

40:09

together. Awesome. And Tim,

40:11

we are your team has put together a

40:14

special discount that's available, I think

40:16

through December 10th. So

40:19

if you guys want to check

40:21

it out, I definitely recommend it.

40:24

Go to let's see if the

40:26

URL is TD athletes edge.com/ run

40:29

strong. And there is a hyphen in

40:31

between run and strong. And

40:33

the discount code is run strong 15. So

40:37

that'll save you 15% on the

40:39

program through Sunday,

40:41

December 10th. Really

40:43

excited about it. I think it's going to

40:45

be you know, your your strength and running

40:47

coach in your pocket can be super valuable

40:49

to have, especially for those runners who might

40:51

be a little bit more injury prone, who

40:54

might be suffering through some of those chronic

40:56

injuries, you know that, you know, I call

40:58

it the injury cycle, you know, like you

41:00

described at first where you get this injury,

41:02

and then a couple weeks later, you think

41:04

you're healthy, and then you only get another

41:06

couple weeks of healthy running before you

41:09

ultimately get hurt again. And that's exactly the

41:11

cycle that we are attempting to prevent

41:13

with this program. So, Tim,

41:16

have I missed any big aspects

41:18

of run strong that you want to get

41:20

into before we sign off? Well, all I

41:23

would do is quickly kind of capture what

41:25

those five plus one zones are. And

41:27

again, go back to for much more in depth

41:30

conversation on this in the first episode that we

41:32

did together on your podcast here.

41:34

But you start at the foot, you have plantar

41:37

fascia, Achilles and calf zone one,

41:39

very common areas of breakdown and

41:42

chronic injury. You go up the back of the

41:44

leg, you have the hamstrings. So hamstring

41:47

strains, super common, tendinopathies, tendinitis

41:49

at the higher hamstring areas

41:51

or the lower hamstring areas,

41:53

very common. You

41:55

go inward and you have the

41:57

adductors. So many people now... ever

42:00

load the adductors and from a

42:02

performance standpoint that's a huge gap

42:04

from a injury standpoint so many

42:06

runners deal with nagging groin issues

42:08

and things that happen in the

42:10

adductor muscle group. From around

42:12

the front your hip flexors and your quads so

42:14

in that sort of piston like action of being

42:17

able to move your legs and propel yourself forward

42:19

your hip flexors and your quads have to be

42:21

on point they have to be durable we have

42:23

to hit those areas then you

42:25

have the patellar and quad tendons

42:27

so the front of knee stuff

42:30

so the cranky anterior knee or

42:32

patellar issues that those kneecap issues

42:34

that the cranky kneecap insults

42:38

that people often have and

42:40

then that plus one zone we get

42:43

to around the lateral aspects so common

42:45

for endurance athletes is the

42:47

IT band and the muscles that that

42:49

feed into that from above so that's

42:51

just a quick and dirty on that

42:53

in terms of the program itself

42:56

it is what to expect so

42:58

you will get a 12-week strength

43:02

training program alongside

43:05

up to any any of the either 5k 10k 10k

43:08

half or

43:10

full marathon mileage dosage put together by

43:12

you so from our end we put

43:14

together that strength training program then from

43:16

your end you gave the dosage of

43:18

if we're preparing for this event you

43:21

pick your you pick your adventure and

43:23

then you follow the dosage there that's

43:25

been laid out expertly by you and

43:27

in addition to that we've added a five

43:30

what we call five plus one plus core

43:32

so some days you need to work just

43:34

those five plus one zones a

43:37

bit and do a little core work because as we

43:39

know are starting in the middle

43:41

and working our way out starting with the

43:43

core it all starts there so there's a

43:45

separate series of workouts that lend just to

43:47

that on days you're not doing a bigger

43:49

workout there's also specific warm-ups for that are

43:51

based off of hey if you're doing a

43:53

shorter run or a longer run there's just

43:55

so much in there that you're going to

43:57

be able to get you'll have Once

44:00

you have this in your hands and

44:03

downloaded on your phone, you'll have this

44:05

for life. Jason,

44:07

like you said earlier, there's just so

44:09

much in here that having

44:12

it for life and being able to tap into

44:14

this and having us in your back pocket is

44:16

what our goal was to be able to help

44:18

you to do what

44:20

you love to do and not crush your fingers

44:22

that, gosh, I hope that Achilles

44:24

isn't going to come back this week or

44:26

this run or any of those things that

44:28

you've dealt with, the IT band syndromes and

44:31

that kind of stuff. And also, hey, we

44:33

want you finishing going across that finish line

44:35

or finishing your training or just finishing a

44:37

run and saying like, I do not remember

44:39

feeling like I could just keep going and

44:41

I feel great right now. That is

44:43

how you should feel. You don't have to

44:46

feel like I barely made it across that

44:48

finish line. I dragged myself across. I had

44:50

to stop and pull out early. You

44:52

don't need to do that. We tried to take

44:54

the guesswork out for you and be the coaches

44:56

in your pocket. I love it. And

44:59

we're not actually small enough to be in your pocket,

45:02

but you can have the program in your pocket for

45:04

sure. Exactly. Good

45:06

clarification. Yeah, I was like, I'm not

45:08

sure how many people want us in

45:10

their back pocket, Tim, but the program

45:14

for sure. So I'm

45:16

going to include a link to the program

45:18

page so you can check out all

45:20

the details. There's a really fun launch

45:22

video that your team has put together

45:24

that's just great to like hype up

45:27

the program. I think it's so fun. And

45:29

that'll be in the show notes. There's

45:31

also a link straight to TD

45:33

athletes edge.com and the

45:35

Run Strong program in the description for

45:38

this podcast episode. You don't actually have

45:40

to leave the podcast player, but they're

45:43

both there for you if you want to check it out. And

45:46

Tim, I just want to thank you for

45:48

how thorough you are and how comprehensive you

45:50

are. And I think

45:52

what I love the most is just

45:55

how strategic you think about the nature

45:57

of running injuries and how to specifically

45:59

combat. them in the gym. I

46:02

think it's just a very

46:04

methodical approach to the nature

46:07

of injuries and that

46:09

approach is very much presented

46:11

in this program and I think it's really special.

46:13

That means a lot and the combination of how

46:16

you put together what you bring to the

46:18

table with the mileage dosage and thinking that

46:20

same way and having a why and a

46:22

reason for what we do when we do

46:24

it and not just throwing stuff at

46:26

the wall. I think a lot of runners get

46:28

into this issue of either doing too much because

46:30

they think more must be better or not enough

46:33

because I don't know. I don't even know what's

46:35

enough and so being

46:37

able to come together and solve those

46:40

issues and crack the code for runners

46:42

has been an honor and I cannot

46:44

wait for people to get this into their

46:46

hands and get into action. Yes,

46:48

now runners will know what to do in the

46:50

gym while wearing their short shorts. That's it. I

46:53

love it. You'll have people coming to you saying,

46:55

what is that exercise? Where do I get it?

46:58

Where do I get those shorts? I love

47:01

it. Yeah, exactly. The last

47:03

thing I would say from my

47:05

end, you can follow along on

47:07

Instagram at tdathletesedge and there's very

47:09

regular nagging

47:12

injury solutions, strength exercises specific

47:14

to running and other sports

47:16

generally being more durable and

47:18

high performing in whatever you

47:20

do. So follow along

47:22

there and yeah, be sure

47:24

to check out the program. Be sure to

47:26

get that launch code in there, the Run

47:28

Strong 15. Run Strong

47:31

15 is that launch code

47:33

that ends on December 10th

47:36

and take advantage of that

47:38

at tdathletesedge.com/run dash strong. There

47:41

we go. Tim, thanks for being here. I appreciate

47:43

you. Love it. Thanks, Jason. And

47:47

that's our show. Thank you so

47:49

much for listening and if you're

47:51

a fan of my work here

47:54

on the podcast in this conversation,

47:56

please consider investing in Run Strong

47:58

at tdathletesedge.com/run strong. There's a

48:00

hyphen in between run and strong. And

48:03

be sure to use code RUNSTRONG15 to

48:06

claim your 15% discount. You

48:08

can also support the show by supporting

48:10

our sponsors. Use their links and discount

48:13

codes to support the Strength Rounding Podcast

48:15

and tell them they should continue supporting

48:17

the show. First, hook

48:19

yourself up with some

48:21

free electrolytes. Our sponsor,

48:23

Drink Element, is offering

48:25

a free gift with

48:28

your purchase at drinklment.com/strengthrunning.

48:30

And this does not have to be your first

48:32

purchase. You're gonna get a sample pack with every

48:35

flavor so you can try them all before deciding

48:37

what you like best. Now, if

48:39

you're not familiar, Element is my

48:41

favorite way to hydrate. They make

48:43

electrolytes for athletes and low-carb folks

48:45

with no sugar, no artificial ingredients

48:47

or colors. I'm now in

48:50

the habit of giving away boxes of

48:52

Element at group runs around Denver and

48:54

Boulder, and everyone loves this stuff. I

48:57

actually just went on a run

48:59

with former podcast guest, Lara Johnson,

49:02

and I brought her two boxes of Element. That's

49:04

just how I roll. It's such a

49:06

helpful way to prevent dehydration when you're

49:08

running long. And if you

49:10

sometimes feel overly tired or you get

49:13

headaches, cramps, or sleeplessness after long runs

49:15

or workouts, you might have an electrolyte

49:17

imbalance or a deficiency. Boost

49:20

your performance and your recovery, especially in

49:22

the heat, with Element. They're

49:25

the exclusive hydration partner to Team

49:27

USA Weightlifting, and quite a few

49:29

professional baseball, hockey, and basketball teams

49:31

are on regular subscriptions. Plus,

49:34

Element is my go-to morning beverage if

49:36

I've frequented one of Denver's many breweries

49:38

the night before and I want my

49:40

morning to feel a little smoother. Check

49:43

them out at drinklmnt.com/strengthrunning to

49:46

get your free sample pack

49:48

gift with your purchase and

49:51

get your hydration optimized for the

49:53

upcoming season. Finally,

49:56

get yourself 15% off your

49:58

first purchase at previnex.com. with

50:01

code Jason 15. Previnex

50:03

is a unique supplement company that holds

50:05

itself to standards that the rest of

50:07

the industry doesn't. I know you've

50:09

heard me talk about Joint Health Plus from Previnex

50:12

and how it's directly impacted the health

50:14

of so many of our listeners. Their

50:17

CEO keeps forwarding me your testimonials

50:19

because your results are just incredible.

50:22

Let me share two with you that David, the

50:24

CEO, sent me. First, a listener

50:26

named Kim wrote, my ankle

50:28

and knee pain was completely gone

50:31

in a week. Amazing. Simple

50:33

and to the point, I love it. Then there's

50:35

Anna who wrote, I thought I

50:37

was on the verge of having to give up

50:39

running due to a severe hip pain and luckily

50:41

discovered Previnex. Complete game changer for

50:43

me. Joint Health Plus

50:46

is so powerful because the main

50:48

active ingredient is clinically proven to

50:50

reduce joint pain, reduce joint stiffness,

50:53

and improve joint flexibility in just

50:55

seven to 10 days. That's

50:57

right, just seven to 10 days, which is almost unheard

50:59

of. It's also clinically

51:01

proven, not just tested, but

51:03

actually proven in double-blinded, placebo-controlled

51:06

studies to protect your joint

51:08

cartilage from breaking down when

51:10

you exercise. If

51:12

you don't currently have any joint pain,

51:14

my personal favorite products are their meal

51:17

replacement shake that I love after hard

51:19

runs called Nurofi. Had it today, actually.

51:22

Plus, their immune support and multivitamin, which

51:24

I try to have on a daily

51:26

basis. I love feeling like

51:28

I'm firing on all cylinders. I feel

51:31

great and Previnex helps me do just

51:33

that. Get 15%

51:35

off your first Previnex purchase

51:37

by using code Jason15 at

51:39

checkout. Visit previnex.com,

51:42

that's p-r-e-v-i-n-e-x.com. And

51:47

I'll note one last thing. Previnex offers

51:49

a 30-day money-back guarantee where if you

51:51

don't feel the benefits on their product,

51:54

you get your money back, no questions asked. I

51:57

love that there's no risk involved. products

52:00

are clinically proven to show you results in

52:02

as little as 7-10 days. I

52:05

love that. Alright, that's our show

52:07

my friends. If I can ever be of service

52:09

to you, don't ever hesitate to reach out. I'm

52:11

here to help. We'll be in touch soon. Thank

52:30

you.