0:00

Ready, set,

0:03

go! This is episode 324 with my

0:05

fellow running coach, the

0:09

host of the Elevate Your Running podcast

0:11

and Boston Marathon qualifier,

0:14

Sarah Manderscheid.

0:24

Welcome to the Strength Running Podcast. I'm

0:27

your host, coach Jason Fitzgerald, and the goal

0:29

of this show, strengthrunning.com, and

0:31

our YouTube channel is to help you better

0:34

understand the process of improvement.

0:37

Because when you recognize knowledge as a competitive

0:39

advantage, you'll be a much better runner.

0:42

If you're new here, welcome. I'm the head

0:44

coach of Strength Running, formerly a 239 Marathoner

0:47

and a monthly columnist for Trail Runner

0:49

Magazine. On this podcast, I share

0:52

my insights on the sport and speak with

0:54

the world's smartest subject matter experts

0:56

to help you improve. I'm happy

0:58

to connect at any time, so feel

1:00

free to email me or you can send me a message

1:03

on Instagram or YouTube. Now

1:05

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and don't forget to use code JASON15 for 15%

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off your purchase. All right, my

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guest today is running coach, Sarah

3:21

Mandersheid. Sarah is a running coach

3:23

and Boston qualifier with more than 15 years

3:26

of competitive experience. She

3:28

hosts the Elevate Your Running podcast

3:31

and Elevate Your Running Camps held

3:33

in Boulder, Colorado. You can hear

3:35

Sarah interview me in a more personal way in

3:38

episode 257 of the podcast. In

3:41

this episode, she joins me to take your

3:44

running questions. I asked for your toughest

3:46

training questions and you guys delivered

3:48

with topics ranging from injury prevention,

3:51

heart rate, warming up for easy runs

3:53

versus hard workouts, planning, training

3:56

over multiple years, and a lot more.

3:59

Without further delay. Please enjoy this wide

4:01

ranging Q&A with Sarah Mandershied.

4:05

All right, Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

4:07

Hey Jason, thanks so much for having me. Happy

4:09

to be here.

4:10

Yeah. Well, I was thinking we probably should have done this

4:12

in person, but this is a unique

4:14

time for you to be recording a podcast. First

4:17

of all, happy birthday. It is your birthday

4:20

today, right? Yes.

4:21

Thank you so much. It is my birthday.

4:23

Yay.

4:23

You're also in, where

4:26

are you? Indianapolis?

4:28

I'm in Indianapolis sitting in a hotel

4:30

room, uh, ready to

4:32

raise a half a marathon tomorrow.

4:34

Awesome. Well, you've got a lot going

4:37

on today with your race preparation for tomorrow

4:39

and your birthday being today. So

4:41

I appreciate the time you've made for

4:44

our strength running listeners today. So thank you.

4:46

You're welcome. I'm really excited for the conversation

4:49

and I know it's going to be great.

4:50

Well, we have pulled together a whole

4:53

bunch of different training questions

4:55

from strength running listeners, and

4:58

we are going to tackle these in

5:00

no specific order. I think we're going to start with

5:02

some injury questions first, and then

5:05

we're going to get into some bigger

5:07

picture questions about how to design

5:09

training for the longterm. And

5:12

there's a lot of different flavors of these questions

5:14

that we're going to get to. So we're going to dive right

5:16

in, um, uh, and,

5:18

and talk first about a very

5:21

specific question from JD. Uh,

5:23

he's had a couple hamstring strains

5:26

over the last year, so he's obviously

5:28

a little bit worried about getting more

5:30

hamstring strains. So his question is,

5:33

is there some indicator, a red

5:35

flag or something similar during

5:38

a workout that you're nearing a muscle

5:40

pull and need to cut the workout short?

5:43

This is a tricky one because usually muscle pulls

5:45

are non-existent one

5:48

second. And then a second later,

5:50

your hamstring is in three pieces. So

5:53

what do you think Sarah?

5:54

Yeah, definitely. It's one of those things

5:56

where, whoops, there it goes. I

5:58

think it's important to focus. in

6:00

on what's going on before the

6:03

run. So a proper warmup, making sure that you're

6:05

properly warming up into the speed

6:07

and into the pace. I love running a

6:10

really nice transition mile.

6:12

Sometimes it's a 1K before I actually start

6:14

my workout. It's that pace that's

6:17

in between easy and it's in between

6:19

your first rep. Let's say you're running 400. So

6:22

it's a nice way to really warm up the body and

6:25

especially focusing in on

6:27

those dynamic stretches, those dynamic

6:30

drills or the drills. And

6:33

as we're going into winter and having

6:35

just a colder season, I think it's

6:37

really important to emphasize those

6:39

stretches and those drills a

6:41

little bit more as well as that transition pace.

6:44

But then I would also focus it on strength training.

6:46

I think that's going to be a huge piece to making

6:48

sure that your hammies, your legs,

6:51

your lower body, your entire body

6:53

is strong and feeling really

6:55

good. And it may prevent

6:58

some of those muscle pulls or some

7:00

of those little niggles that we have when

7:02

we're in training.

7:03

Yeah, this is definitely a more difficult question

7:06

because I mean, I think the simple answer

7:08

is no. There's typically not

7:10

some kind of warning sign that

7:14

your muscle is about to tear or get

7:16

a strain. So really the

7:19

question then comes down to prevention

7:21

and making sure you're doing everything

7:23

right before you start running

7:25

very, very fast so that you're just

7:28

reducing the risk of getting that

7:30

kind of an injury from the very beginning.

7:33

And I think like you said, doing

7:35

some kind of a dynamic warm up before

7:37

you even start running to really prime

7:40

the body for the act of running is

7:42

going to be really important. And

7:45

then just in general, it's

7:47

probably more important to do

7:49

a more thorough warm up the

7:52

faster your running is going

7:54

to be. So if you're running a really fast workout

7:57

or you're getting ready to race, let's

7:59

say mile, your warm up

8:02

should be a lot more comprehensive than

8:04

if you were about to raise a marathon. You know,

8:06

a lot of coaches would probably not even recommend

8:09

doing any running before a marathon. Because

8:11

on the one hand, you know, you're

8:13

not ready to run about 27 miles that day,

8:16

you've only been running probably up to 20 miles.

8:18

And we want to spare

8:20

our glycogen or fuel stores

8:23

before a marathon. That's not really true

8:25

with a shorter workout or a 5k or

8:28

a shorter event. And so we can

8:30

run a couple miles, we can do a

8:32

series of strides, we can do that dynamic

8:35

warm up, we can do some form drills. And

8:37

then as we start the workout, I

8:40

think your suggestion of doing a slower

8:42

rep beforehand just to further

8:45

that warm up process is a really

8:47

good one. But you know, in general, I don't

8:50

really think that there's some sort of indicator

8:53

or red flag that you're nearing a muscle

8:55

pull. Of course,

8:58

if you are doing sprint workouts,

9:01

just recognize that a little

9:04

bit is really all you need. You

9:06

know, we're distance runners, we're endurance runners

9:09

doing a lot of sprint work, especially

9:11

if you're running relatively high mileage is

9:14

going to be putting that sprint work within

9:16

the context of high fatigue. And

9:19

that makes me very nervous. So whenever

9:21

you're going to be running really fast, let's say

9:23

anything faster than mile race pace, let's

9:26

make sure you're warm up really, really well,

9:28

and probably keep the volume of that pretty low. Yeah.

9:32

Let's move on to a question about injury

9:35

prevention a little more general. You

9:37

know, I've long said that the number

9:39

one injury prevention strategy

9:41

you can implement is just smart training.

9:44

Let's make sure you're doing intelligent training. And

9:47

this question from Michael really gets at that he

9:49

says, after intelligent training

9:51

design, what other decisions should be made

9:53

to keep athletes healthy and progressing?

9:56

What do you think, Sarah?

9:58

Wow, there's so much here. I

10:00

feel like you can do so much

10:02

in terms of keeping the athletes healthy

10:05

and progressing. I feel like first and foremost,

10:08

you need to have like joy in your training.

10:11

You need to ensure have

10:13

something that you're really going after and something that makes

10:15

you excited. And I think that's going to be easier

10:17

to progress forward when you're

10:20

excited about it, when it's something that

10:22

fills your cup and you're excited

10:24

to get out the door every day or most days because

10:27

there are going to be days that we aren't necessarily as

10:30

motivated. And I think

10:32

there's so many other things that we can look

10:35

into in terms of staying healthy. So

10:37

we can look at our mind and

10:40

staying healthy on the mindset piece

10:42

of things. We can stay

10:44

healthy in terms of making

10:46

sure that we're getting our sleep and all

10:49

of the eight hours that they recommend

10:52

athletes get per night.

10:54

Sleep is the number one recovery tool. It also helps

10:57

us stay healthy and happy.

11:00

And I think that's a great starting

11:02

point going into

11:04

this season.

11:06

Yeah, the sleep is going to

11:08

be a huge issue. I think there was a study

11:10

showing like if you got less than six

11:13

hours sleep, it increased

11:16

your injury risk dramatically.

11:19

I think it was like up to 50%. And

11:21

look guys, we're participating in a sport that has

11:24

a pretty high injury risk by

11:26

itself. And we

11:28

should be doing everything in our power to reduce

11:30

our injury risk. So I probably

11:32

put sleep top three, top

11:35

five in terms of a

11:38

tool to reduce your injury risk. You

11:41

know, I'm the strength running guy. So I've got to say strength

11:43

training, you know, I think the science is pretty clear,

11:46

both the lived experience of

11:48

high level runners and

11:51

coaches and the research behind

11:53

it as well shows that once

11:55

you've got your training right, once

11:58

you are sleeping really well,

12:00

well, once you're actually psychologically

12:03

invested in whatever goal that you're going after,

12:05

I think that's that's probably the most important thing

12:07

for overall progression. Are

12:10

you in love with the sport? Do you

12:12

absolutely love what you're doing? Or do

12:14

you have some sort of, you know, big

12:17

goal that gets you up in the morning, that's

12:19

what's going to keep you progressing in the long term,

12:21

even if you make all these mistakes.

12:23

You know, I've had

12:25

all the injuries. I don't think

12:27

I've not had a single type

12:29

of running injury. You know, actually, there's a couple

12:31

I haven't had. So let's knock on

12:33

wood there. But once

12:35

you have that big goal that motivates

12:38

you, then it's like, okay, what are the tactics that we

12:40

can implement on the ground. And I think strength

12:42

training is arguably

12:44

one of the most impactful

12:46

strategies that one can implement to

12:49

reduce your injury risk to get stronger

12:51

improves your running economy, which is going to help

12:54

with both your progression in

12:56

the long term. So strength training

12:58

would be one of those things that I would

13:00

call a you

13:03

know, a low risk

13:05

high reward training option

13:07

that is going to give you a lot of benefit but

13:10

really doesn't have too many drawbacks.

13:13

Yes, you can do strength training incorrectly.

13:15

But I honestly think that incorrect strength

13:18

training is better than no strength training at all. What

13:20

do you think you think I'm a little off base with my my

13:23

love letter to strength training there?

13:24

No, I actually love

13:27

that. I'm glad that you I was hoping

13:29

that you would bring up strength training. So

13:31

I feel like strength training is such a huge component

13:34

to training and racing

13:37

well, and also saying healthy in the long

13:39

run that a lot of athletes don't

13:41

buy into until they

13:43

have an injury pop up. And maybe they're, they're

13:47

forced a little bit through PT

13:49

to start working in

13:51

the gym. And, you know, Jason,

13:54

you're a big believer that it doesn't have to be

13:56

hours in the gym, right? It can be 20

13:59

to 30 minutes. minutes a few times a week. And

14:02

it really does move the needle in fitness.

14:04

I've seen it as a coach and a lot of athletes

14:06

who've really embraced that

14:09

strength training component. Once they

14:11

kind of get to a level in their training of like the

14:13

foundation miles are there they've run

14:15

maybe it's a few marathons or a few half marathons

14:18

are going after this you know PR

14:20

this goal like let's get after

14:23

it. Let's start going into the 1% to really move

14:26

the needle in that and strength training is definitely

14:28

going to be one of them. And it

14:32

doesn't take long and once you start to

14:34

feel the benefits of it, it really

14:37

is addictive in some sense

14:39

and it is something that you continue to see

14:42

gains from you can continue to

14:44

feel the strength on

14:46

the track and on the road. And

14:48

it's something that really is a huge needle

14:50

mover for athletes.

14:52

Yeah, it is strange that we almost have

14:54

to directly experience

14:56

the benefits for us to start

14:58

getting on board with strength training. And

15:01

on the one hand, I get it we're runners we

15:03

don't want to lift weights. I'm sort of in that

15:05

boat to you know, I'm someone

15:08

who would rather go run 10 miles and

15:10

spend 25 minutes in the weight room because

15:12

most of that time is just spent sitting around

15:15

in between lifts and I just can't sit

15:17

still for that long. I'd rather be running

15:19

around on some dirt road road

15:22

and boulder with you Sarah but if

15:24

I can't do that then you know, at

15:27

least I will do the strength training because

15:29

it will then allow me to do more running

15:31

on the dirt roads with you. So I

15:34

recognize it but I I

15:36

also would love to sort

15:39

of bottle up those benefits and

15:42

put it in some sort of sub

15:44

beverage that runners could have. So they

15:47

didn't have to actually do anything that they didn't want to do.

15:49

Infuse them with strength and just

15:51

have it there. I love

15:54

that. I feel like I you

15:56

know, I started strength training at the beginning of

15:58

the year I was going into my second

16:00

Boston Marathon and my coach said,

16:03

we really need to work on strengths. You want

16:05

to run the hills strong. You want to run the Newton

16:08

Hills strong. You want to have a strong 26.2. You

16:11

need to get in a gym. And at this point I'd been running

16:13

higher mileage. I have, I

16:15

was going into my fifth marathon and

16:17

I was taking reformer Pilates twice

16:20

a week and adding in one

16:22

strength training session through the Boston

16:25

Marathon, we did it on Wednesdays after my workout,

16:27

after my track workout, it made such a

16:29

huge difference. And then it was something that I want to

16:31

continue to add. So then I went into an off

16:34

season or not really an off

16:36

season, maybe an off season for marathoning, but I went

16:38

into a summer of speed and I practiced

16:40

running the mile and the 5k and

16:43

really honing in on that top end speed.

16:45

We added a second day of strength training

16:48

and I came through the

16:50

fall in full beast mode.

16:52

It was incredible. And I could feel the benefits

16:55

of like how great all

16:57

that time in the gym was. And if you

17:00

can really lean into your why and

17:02

lean into the reason behind

17:05

going into the gym and getting it done, I think it makes

17:07

it a little bit easier too.

17:08

Yeah. I mean, we could probably have a whole podcast

17:12

episode only talking about

17:14

the fact that you focusing

17:16

on strength and speed is,

17:19

is likely going to be a major contributor

17:22

to breakthroughs in the marathon.

17:24

It's not this never ending quest

17:27

for endurance. You've got to be a more well-rounded

17:29

athlete. Well, we can maybe put a pin on that.

17:31

We'll come back to it another time in the future, Sarah,

17:34

but let's get to a question on heart

17:36

rate. This is actually really interesting. You

17:39

know, this question goes, if

17:41

heart rate is higher on easy runs right

17:44

before a race, should that be

17:46

a concern? It can definitely impact my mental

17:48

game, which is why I'm asking. And

17:51

maybe I'll just jump in first here and

17:53

give a very simple answer. I

17:55

would just say no. I would say

17:57

that, look, if you're in the weak

17:59

leader. up to a race, you notice that

18:01

your heart rate is higher than usual

18:04

on a couple of your easy runs. Look,

18:07

we could sit here and overanalyze this

18:09

and absolutely ruin your confidence

18:12

going into your goal race

18:14

that's coming up, but why would we

18:16

do that? At this point, the hay

18:18

is in the barn. There's really not much

18:21

one can do to address this high

18:23

heart rate. There's not even really

18:25

much time to determine if this

18:27

is a problem or if this is not a problem.

18:30

This could be a minor thing. It could be a temporary

18:32

thing. Who knows? My

18:34

suggestion is simply maybe you

18:36

ignore the heart rate on your easy runs right now.

18:39

Maybe you get a little bit more sleep leading

18:41

up to your goal race if you can. Maybe

18:43

try to counteract any sort of fatigue

18:47

or need for extra recovery and then just

18:51

try to run the race to the best of your ability,

18:53

not thinking about this high heart rate during

18:56

your easy runs at all. I'm

18:59

a little bit like an ostrich with this question. I want

19:01

to stick my head in the sand. I want to ignore it

19:03

a little bit because there's not much really we can

19:05

do. I would

19:08

have a different answer if this was in the middle of the training

19:10

cycle, but I'm curious how you would deal with

19:12

this.

19:13

Yeah, definitely. If it's happening on race

19:15

week, let's build this athlete up and

19:17

say forget about the data. It

19:20

could mean that maybe this athlete, because

19:22

they are in taper, it's race week. They

19:24

have to shift some things in their personal life around

19:26

to accommodate for travel or for race weekend.

19:29

Maybe they're running at a different time of the day.

19:32

Maybe they

19:34

forgot their heart rate monitor and they're using their

19:36

risk heart rate. Maybe

19:39

it's race week nerves. We

19:41

all have that and I feel like that can kind of impact

19:44

it. If you are a little bit more

19:46

hypersensitive to the data, I think too,

19:49

maybe it's one run, your first

19:52

run and the heart rate is a little bit higher.

19:54

Then that's all you're thinking about on

19:56

runs two and three of that week. Chances are

19:58

if you're on the run, you're on the run. over focusing

20:01

it on the heart rate, it's

20:03

probably going to be a little bit higher anyways, just

20:05

because you're focusing in on it.

20:07

So what I love to share

20:09

with athletes on race week is let's

20:11

get back to your goal

20:13

for the race. Let's visualize what you

20:15

want to create, what you want to run,

20:18

and really just hone in on that.

20:20

And I think everything else will fall into

20:22

place because Jason, you're right. The hay is

20:24

in the barn. It's race week. It's time to celebrate

20:27

on race morning.

20:28

Yeah, this is probably a great point to say.

20:31

This is where the value of

20:33

a coach can be really impactful because

20:35

I think if you don't have someone almost

20:38

talking you off the ledge a little bit, then

20:42

you might stay up there on the ledge and really

20:44

hurt your psychology going into

20:47

the race. And I'm someone

20:49

who believes that racing is like 99%

20:51

mental. You could be in the best shape

20:55

of your life, but if you don't have

20:57

the mental toughness, the confidence,

20:59

the drive, and really the willingness

21:02

to experience some discomfort

21:04

on race day, you're never really going to achieve very

21:07

much. And being so

21:10

lost in the data is probably

21:12

not a good thing for your mindset going

21:14

into a big goal race. So there's

21:17

a time and a place to really pour

21:19

over that data. I don't think a couple

21:21

days before your goal race is that time because

21:24

at this point, like you said, it's the time to be talked

21:26

up. It's the time to almost

21:29

ignorantly tell yourself that you are

21:31

about to qualify for the Olympic trials.

21:34

You are about to have a breakthrough. And

21:36

I think that kind of cheerleading

21:39

for yourself has its place

21:41

in the days leading up to a big goal race.

21:43

Absolutely.

21:45

Now let's talk about warm ups. When

21:47

you're talking to your athletes, Sarah, do you have a

21:51

different philosophy on how you warm

21:53

up for a run if it's an easy

21:55

run or a long run versus a

21:57

very short run? Maybe you're going to the track. you're

22:00

doing a set of hard intervals or

22:02

even if you're getting ready for say a short race like

22:04

a 5k.

22:05

Oh yeah, absolutely. I feel like all of

22:07

those types of runs or styles of runs

22:11

require a different warm-up, right? So if we're going out

22:13

for let's say it's a five-mile easy

22:15

run, there's a great run

22:18

in Wash Park on Tuesday nights at six o'clock. Jason,

22:20

you've been there and we'll warm

22:22

up with leg swings, we'll keep it light,

22:24

we'll keep it easy and then we'll start that first

22:27

mile a little bit slower than maybe

22:29

what our intended or average pace is going

22:31

to be for that five miles, right? Just

22:33

nice and easy warm up into that

22:35

first mile along with those leg swings.

22:38

I think the same can be true for the long

22:40

run. If you're going

22:42

into a long run with quality or a

22:44

long run that does have some race pace

22:47

in it, maybe it's marathon pace, there

22:49

can be a time and place where you stop

22:51

after your easy miles and before you go

22:53

in to your marathon

22:56

pace miles, you do the dynamic stretches,

22:59

the drills and maybe a few strides.

23:01

My coach had me do that last week before my

23:03

long run that had a 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 moderate, 5 at

23:05

marathon pace

23:08

and repeat and it really did help

23:10

getting into a faster

23:13

pace a little bit easier. So

23:15

that's a great way in the long run to kind of

23:17

warm up. But when you're

23:19

going into the track and you have,

23:22

let's say you are training for a 5k and

23:24

you have a very speedy track

23:26

workout, I really love the

23:29

leg swings, the hip openers going

23:31

out for two or three mile warm up. Easy,

23:33

easy, easy and then coming back

23:35

to the track and doing 15 to 20

23:38

minutes of dynamic stretches,

23:41

drills, two

23:43

by 100 meter strides and then maybe

23:46

two by 50 meter strides. I get to do

23:48

that in practice every week. It's a really

23:50

nice way to warm up in those 100 meter

23:52

strides, take the 50 meter strides

23:55

a little bit faster and then

23:57

really listen to your body too. What do you

23:59

do? need in this moment? What do you need

24:01

that might be a little bit different from last

24:04

week, especially if you are in a big heavy

24:06

training cycle or even an intense

24:08

training cycle like a 5k, you might

24:10

need a little bit more based on the day and then

24:14

ease into it. Maybe it is taking a transition

24:16

interval first and

24:18

then going into your first rep for your

24:20

5k workout. With raising,

24:23

I love this question about

24:25

raising and warming up because I feel like

24:27

and know that the shorter the distance you

24:29

are racing, the longer the warm-up

24:32

should be. If you are going into a 1 mile

24:34

and a 5k race, really focus

24:36

in on maybe it is a

24:38

3-4 mile warm-up. You are doing your dynamic stretches,

24:40

your drills, your strides and cooling

24:43

or ending your last

24:45

stride, taking a gel and hoping that there

24:47

is about 5-7 minutes

24:50

before the race starts. I know sometimes that can get

24:52

a little funny depending on what race

24:54

you are running and how big the race is, but

24:56

it really does make a huge needle

24:59

mover in your training

25:02

and on race day. I am a big believer

25:04

too that how you show up in training

25:07

is how you show up on race day. Practicing

25:09

this in training is going to give you a little

25:11

bit of peace of mind and maybe

25:14

some confidence that morning on race day.

25:16

Going into it knowing you have

25:18

done this before, you are going to do it again

25:20

and ease your concerns

25:23

and have that breakthrough race.

25:25

Yeah, totally. This really gets to

25:27

the point that the harder the effort,

25:29

the more comprehensive the warm-up needs

25:31

to be. If you go

25:35

to a college track meet, you are going to see

25:38

people warming up in a

25:40

very methodical way and

25:42

they are probably going to be doing strides

25:45

almost up until the official calls

25:47

them to the starting line.

25:51

Their last stride might be 30 seconds

25:54

or a minute before the race starts.

25:56

That just goes to show for

25:59

those kinds of races, where you're doing

26:01

something very hard, whether it's a 5K

26:03

or some workout on the track or a hill

26:05

workout, as long as it's a high intensity workout,

26:08

you need to be ready to start running

26:10

at that intensity right from the

26:13

gun, right from the first repetition.

26:15

This is not maybe like a tempo run or

26:17

a marathon pace effort where, there's

26:20

a little bit more flexibility to ease into

26:22

the effort. If you're racing a mile, you

26:25

need to be on your mile pace from

26:27

step number one, and to

26:29

be able to do that, to

26:32

be metabolically primed for

26:34

that effort, the warmup has to be

26:36

pretty substantial. And I kind

26:38

of look at it as like a, probably a four

26:40

part warmup. You've got your dynamic warmup

26:43

beforehand that sort of primes you

26:45

for running. Then you've got some easy

26:47

miles, usually two to three miles,

26:49

maybe four is enough for most

26:52

runners. Then you have a series of drills,

26:54

then you do some strides, then you're

26:56

ready to race or do your hard workout.

26:59

Whereas, if you're getting ready for a marathon,

27:02

maybe just do the dynamic warmup and

27:05

you may even make it easier because

27:07

you're not doing any of the lunges. So

27:09

for example, the standard warmup routine that

27:12

we have at strength running, this

27:14

includes 50 different lunges. I

27:16

don't think that's a good idea when

27:19

you're lining up for a 26.2 mile race. It

27:22

just might make you a little bit too sore, it's just a little

27:24

bit too comprehensive. So this might

27:26

be a good opportunity just to skip that entirely

27:29

and just do five minutes and some relatively

27:32

easy dynamic stretches. But

27:34

this idea that longer

27:37

and easier running just doesn't

27:39

require as much of a warmup is a pretty good one. And

27:42

like you said, those Tuesday group runs that

27:45

I joined sometimes at Wash Park here in Denver,

27:48

we won't really do much of a warmup. And that's okay

27:51

because it's a pretty low intensity, low

27:53

effort kind of run.

27:56

And my walk over to the group is probably

27:58

enough for that warmup.

27:59

Yeah,

28:01

let's get into maybe my favorite

28:04

question of this podcast era,

28:06

which comes from Peter. He wants

28:09

to know, how do you think about building an

28:11

athlete over a multi year period?

28:14

Can you have any kind of a plan over that

28:16

time horizon? This is a good one.

28:18

Yeah, I would say absolutely.

28:21

If the athlete knows where they want to go, if

28:24

they know where they want to go, you take

28:26

their ultimate goal. Let's say it's

28:29

running a sub three hour marathon. It's

28:31

a BQ. It's an OTQ.

28:33

And you work backwards from there in terms of

28:36

how long is it going to take us to get

28:38

there. And sometimes you will have

28:40

a lot of shifting in the planning too, right? You might

28:42

have a breakthrough season. The athlete

28:45

might adapt very

28:47

quickly just to training in general and

28:50

show really large gains over

28:52

the first few years. But ultimately,

28:54

you want to take that end goal, work

28:56

backwards, and really make sure if

28:59

it is, let's say the marathon that you're not just

29:01

focused in on training for the

29:03

marathon, you get to also work

29:06

on speed and have different seasons

29:08

that allow you to have and be

29:11

a well rounded athlete.

29:13

Yeah, it's a good question because it's

29:15

sort of like, like

29:18

a question about my entire life, right? Like,

29:22

for a very long time, my singular

29:25

goal was to become the fastest runner

29:27

I could be. And, you

29:30

know, that was my multi year

29:32

goal. And the way that I did that

29:34

was basically bouncing from season

29:37

to season to season. And within each season,

29:40

I had different goals, you know, maybe I was focused

29:42

on a half marathon, or I was focused on

29:44

a bunch of 5k, 8k, 10k distance

29:48

races, or maybe it was a marathon cycle.

29:51

And I think this idea of cycling

29:54

through the training process is really

29:56

important. And, you

29:58

know, the The one thing I'll say

30:01

is if you do have, say, a two

30:03

or three year goal, maybe it's that sub-three

30:05

marathon or that's Boston qualifying

30:07

goal, I would say that doesn't

30:10

mean that you have a two year training plan

30:12

for a fast marathon. It

30:15

means you have many cycles

30:17

within that big time period. Each

30:20

cycle is like a season. It might be a 12 to 20

30:23

week season and you're

30:25

focusing on something. It almost doesn't

30:28

really matter what you're focusing on, whether it's a

30:30

fast mile or a fast marathon

30:32

or a fast half marathon. Really

30:34

what we're looking for is improvement. If

30:37

I'm seeing improvement, then I'm going

30:39

to be happy as a coach because

30:42

after all, running fitness is running fitness. Running

30:45

is running. If you go from

30:47

being able to run a 750 mile to a 722 mile,

30:49

that's enormous improvement in

30:53

my mind and now you're a better runner.

30:56

Better runners are also going to perform

30:59

better in other race distances. The

31:02

best way to get better at some race

31:04

distance is just to race a lot and

31:06

get better at any race distance. There's

31:10

no one plan unless

31:12

you have it. Sarah, do you have a three year training

31:15

program available?

31:16

No, I wish I did. No,

31:18

I

31:18

don't. I wish I could correct that

31:20

guy. There's really none.

31:24

This is why I often chase against

31:26

some of these really long training

31:28

cycles that some coaches write. This 24,

31:30

28 week training plan. I'm

31:33

like, oh my goodness, this is

31:36

too long to really focus on much of anything.

31:39

Maybe 24 weeks for

31:41

a 100 mile ultra marathon, maybe

31:44

we can bend that rule a little bit. I

31:47

prefer the 12 to 18 week cycles

31:50

and just focusing

31:53

on executing more of

31:55

those cycles during the year because I think

31:57

that's where the magic happens. That's where the improvement actually is.

32:00

happens is going after

32:02

a bunch of different races but then giving yourself enough

32:05

rest and recovery in between those

32:07

cycles so that you're fresh you're still

32:10

excited about your goals and you can continue

32:12

moving forward.

32:13

Absolutely that rest and recovery is so

32:15

important and it's something that I think a lot of us

32:17

as athletes don't like to lean

32:19

into but that really is the time and place

32:22

for our mind and body to

32:24

really recover repair

32:26

and get ready and excited

32:28

for the next training cycle. Yeah

32:30

and I think the harder your training cycle

32:32

the more flexibility you have

32:35

to rest even harder after

32:37

that training cycle. So you know if

32:39

it was just a 22 week high-mileage

32:42

brutal marathon cycle you

32:45

might need two or three weeks off and

32:47

then a whole bunch of very easy

32:49

weeks afterward but you know if

32:51

it was a 5k training

32:54

cycle and you're not super beat up afterward

32:56

and it was only 12 weeks maybe you only

32:58

need a week off and then you can sort of jump right back

33:00

into things. I would say err on the

33:03

conservative side but probably recognize

33:06

that you don't really need more than three

33:08

to five weeks for most runners.

33:11

Yeah.

33:12

Alright now let's get to endurance

33:14

building well also one of my favorite questions

33:17

that we're gonna tackle here and this

33:20

is for our high mileage runners so Ivan

33:23

wants to know you know once you're running volume

33:25

gets high let's say you're running more than 60 miles

33:27

per week can high volume cross

33:30

training be used to expand your aerobic capacity

33:32

even further? So this

33:34

is something for example where you might do a bunch

33:37

of easy bike rides or even hikes.

33:40

Is that something that's gonna help your aerobic metabolism

33:43

or or should we just focus on running

33:45

because specificity is always king? Oh

33:47

this is a good question.

33:50

I feel like you know running is

33:52

definitely the primary sport right so doing

33:55

and running and practicing running as

33:57

much as you can is a great

33:59

way to set set yourself up for success on race day.

34:02

I think cross training does have its

34:04

place, especially if an athlete is looking

34:07

to maybe have doubles of running

34:09

in the morning, you could do some biking

34:12

or cycling at night. It

34:14

is a way for some athletes who are maybe

34:17

topping off at

34:20

three, three and a half hours in the long run, but

34:22

the mileage is a little bit under

34:25

that 20 mile threshold for let's

34:27

say a marathon training cycle. It

34:29

could be a really great idea for that athlete

34:31

to jump on the bike and get another hour

34:34

or so of aerobic fitness from

34:36

that biking that lowers the risk

34:39

of getting injured or being injured,

34:41

but it still helps that athlete

34:44

feel that they can

34:46

conquer the 26.2 on race day. So

34:49

I feel like it definitely has its place, but

34:52

I would say from like the coaching standpoint, it's

34:54

very like, it depends

34:56

per athlete in what makes sense for

34:58

that athlete.

34:59

Yeah, I'm sort of in the same boat where, you

35:02

know, actually I think both

35:04

things are true. You know, like specificity

35:06

is king. You're never gonna become a good

35:08

runner by cycling. You're

35:10

going to become a good runner by focusing on

35:13

your running. That doesn't mean cross

35:15

training doesn't have a place. And,

35:17

you know, if I have two runners in front of me with

35:20

similar talent levels, one of them's

35:22

running 65 miles a week with

35:25

no cross training and the other runner is doing 65 miles

35:27

a week with an extra three

35:29

hours of aerobic cross training, I'm

35:32

going to slide my chips over to the

35:34

runner who's doing the extra cross training

35:37

and place my money on that runner that

35:39

they're probably gonna win in the race, just

35:41

because when it comes to easy

35:44

aerobic exercise, it's

35:46

hard to say that more isn't better.

35:49

As long as you are doing appropriate training

35:52

and especially with cross training where

35:54

the injury risk is so much less, you

35:57

know, as long as it's not negatively impacting

35:59

your core. quality days, you know, like maybe you

36:02

don't go for a three hour bike ride in

36:04

the morning before your afternoon key

36:07

quality session on the track, because

36:09

you're just going to be tired and you're not going to be able to perform

36:12

very well. But if it's structured really

36:14

well, I'm 100% for

36:16

it. I would love to see high

36:19

mileage runners also doing, you

36:21

know, the equivalent of high volume cross

36:23

training, because aerobic

36:26

development is something that you know,

36:28

is the gift that keeps on giving. And

36:30

if we can continue to develop that aerobic

36:32

metabolism, we're going to be better runners for

36:34

it.

36:35

Yeah, definitely.

36:36

Is there any cross training that you don't like Sarah,

36:39

that you would just rather see runners avoid

36:41

entirely?

36:42

Gosh, that's

36:45

a great question. I

36:46

love biking for

36:49

runners. I love swimming for

36:51

runners. I

36:53

think rowing has its place. And

36:57

I would say sometimes hiking

36:59

might not be considered cross

37:01

training depending on how

37:04

low the heart rate stays and where the

37:06

zone lands and if it's

37:09

really that beneficial for that athlete.

37:11

Yeah, hiking is an interesting one because like

37:13

the way I think about it is it's probably

37:16

more beneficial for ultra runners who

37:18

actually have to do some hiking within their

37:20

events. And it's probably more helpful

37:22

for trail runners who just likely

37:25

have to, you know, are obviously on that kind

37:27

of terrain more often. So

37:29

they're specifically getting exposure

37:32

to that terrain. And for the ultra

37:34

runners, you know, they can practice speed

37:36

hiking on uphills, they can practice,

37:39

you know, quickly descending on

37:41

some technical terrain, there's a lot of things

37:43

they can focus on. It's just hard if those

37:47

folks who are trying to get a lot of aerobic

37:49

development with hiking, it's just hard

37:51

if they don't live in a state like Colorado, like

37:53

we do Sarah, because if

37:55

you're not hiking uphill, maybe

37:58

at altitude, it's probably going to be hard

38:00

to get your heart rate up to a level that's

38:02

going to have a lot of physiological

38:05

benefit to your

38:08

running. So while it can

38:10

be great, it's also it kind

38:12

of depends on how you structure it like

38:15

almost anything. I was a

38:17

little surprised to hear you say swimming by the way. Can

38:19

you tell me how you like to incorporate

38:21

swimming as cross training?

38:23

I think sometimes it can be an awesome

38:26

like if an if an athlete's running five

38:28

days a week, they have one day of rest. It

38:32

can be an awesome six day and

38:34

it could be 30 minutes. I think aerobically,

38:36

it's so solid for an athlete

38:39

to be able to incorporate that into their

38:41

training. Obviously the injury

38:43

risk is a lot lower. They have

38:46

a lot of benefits that are added benefits

38:48

to it from swimming and just staying

38:50

in that low aerobic zone.

38:53

But I have some athletes who can't

38:56

run high mileage. So it is a way to kind of

38:58

add in and sprinkle in some

39:00

of that extra goodness.

39:02

Yeah, I see it as like likely

39:04

the most therapeutic cross training

39:06

that you might be able to choose. You know,

39:09

it's the cross training that's probably going to leave your

39:11

body feeling the best afterward,

39:13

because it's not super specific to running.

39:16

And it's a little bit more recovery oriented.

39:18

I think if runners can get comfortable

39:21

in a low aerobic zone with swimming,

39:24

they're going to be much more athletic

39:26

in general. And so I do like to see

39:29

that. Do you like

39:31

to see runners do any pool running as well? Because it

39:33

seems like you like the pool. I actually

39:35

don't like the pool.

39:39

Well,

39:39

personally, I don't like the pool. As a coach, I think

39:41

it can be great. I think it all depends on the

39:43

athlete. I think pool running has its place

39:45

if an athlete is coming back from injury. I

39:48

feel like that's a really great

39:51

place for an athlete to start. Or

39:54

if they're coming back from an injury

39:56

or stress fracture or somewhere where

39:58

they need to be. in a pool

40:00

to be able to get that movement,

40:03

have that aerobic development and build

40:05

on that fitness, but not have the taxing

40:08

of what a regular run can do for a body.

40:11

So it definitely has its time in place, but I don't prescribe

40:13

it for athletes who are

40:15

healthy, they're

40:18

running great mileage, they're

40:20

running healthy workouts and everything's

40:23

going smoothly.

40:25

Yeah, I have some very bad

40:27

memories of being injured a long time

40:29

ago and I immediately went from

40:32

all of my running outside to all of

40:34

my running plus about 50% in the pool.

40:37

So I was running about two hours in the

40:40

pool every day, split between two

40:42

workouts, usually an hour and an

40:44

hour or maybe 90 minutes and

40:46

a half an hour. And not

40:48

only did I just smell like chlorine

40:51

all day, every day, but it

40:54

was the most boring training block of

40:57

my entire life and I would not

40:59

wish that upon anyone. I know that a lot

41:01

of people love pool running, they

41:03

get the aqua jogging belt on and they can just

41:05

spend hours in the pool. It is

41:08

maybe the most boring exercise, but

41:10

it is more specific and so if

41:12

you are injured, it can be a really good training tool

41:15

for you. Now, speaking

41:17

of specificity, Joseph has a really

41:20

good question sort of about the

41:22

difference between being in shape and

41:24

the difference between being race ready and

41:27

I think they are somewhat mutually exclusive. Like

41:29

you can be in

41:31

good shape, but not be ready to race.

41:34

And so Joseph says, coming

41:36

out of a big racing block, there is a detraining

41:39

phase. You might not run

41:41

any hard workouts, but you're

41:43

still running some decent mileage in the weeks after

41:45

a goal race. How should we think

41:47

about fitness and where we are

41:50

as we then build into the next training block,

41:52

which is a few months down the road? Should

41:55

we do a time trial to see where

41:57

we're at or should we just

41:59

sort of...

41:59

accept

42:01

how we feel and how we're performing

42:03

at this time of the training phase? That's

42:06

a great question. I feel like

42:08

a lot of athletes might ask this question

42:11

after they come off of a training

42:13

cycle, they come off of a great race,

42:15

and I would say trust the process.

42:18

Let's get back to running, let's get back to running

42:21

some good mileage, start adding in the strides,

42:24

the hill strides, get that long run back

42:27

to where it needs to be, and let's just see

42:29

where you are. I don't think a time trial is really

42:31

necessary, especially if this athlete has just raced

42:34

six weeks ago or something. We have a great

42:36

data point from that race, and

42:39

we can use that to

42:41

structure the future training

42:43

cycle or the next training cycle, and

42:45

then of course like shift things

42:47

around a little bit as we need to based on how

42:50

that athlete is showing up, because we

42:52

show up differently every single day, and that's one

42:54

of the coolest parts of being

42:56

a runner and being an athlete, and it's something that

42:58

when you have a coach, the coaches

43:00

are able to also

43:03

shift and move things around to set that athlete

43:05

up for success. So I would say lean

43:08

into it, trust the process, and

43:10

have a lot of fun rebuilding.

43:13

Yeah, this idea of rebuilding,

43:15

you know, I use that term all

43:17

the time anyway, but let's

43:20

be clear, it's not like this person is

43:22

rebuilding from scratch, right? Like

43:24

every cycle builds on

43:26

itself, and the

43:29

difference between being race-ready and

43:31

being in good shape is

43:34

a stark difference, and

43:36

it sort of just depends on where you

43:38

are in the training cycle, and I know earlier we talked about

43:40

this idea of just cycling through

43:43

the training process, and you just said believe

43:46

in the process, trust the process.

43:48

Part of that process is taking

43:50

time off after a goal

43:53

race, then having a period of

43:55

easy training where you're

43:57

probably not doing a lot of workouts, the workouts

43:59

you are doing are probably short

44:02

or

44:03

low intensity or maybe a combination

44:06

and then you get into the competition

44:08

phase of training where you start doing hard workouts,

44:11

then you might start adding in some tune-up races.

44:13

Then you're sort of in your peak training, then you start

44:16

tapering, then you run your goal race and

44:18

the whole cycle repeats itself. And

44:21

if we were to insert a time trial into

44:23

that early phase of training where

44:26

we're just doing low intensity running, it's

44:28

almost like we're sort of disrespecting the

44:30

training cycle and where we are within

44:33

that cycle. So I would say

44:35

to Joseph, you are still

44:37

in great shape. You're just not

44:39

going to race well because you're not

44:41

really primed for a peak performance,

44:44

but your foundation is still there.

44:47

You have already built this amazing base

44:49

or foundation of fitness. You're

44:52

just not really ready to run very fast. So

44:54

respect that process and just commit

44:58

to whatever your coach is telling you to do or whatever

45:00

the training cycle that you've created

45:03

is indicating. So if it's just easy

45:05

running and building back both

45:07

your mileage and your workouts, let's

45:10

do that. Let's not try to add

45:12

a whole bunch of things during this essentially

45:15

base phase of training because

45:17

it's not really the time for that. We'll get to that later

45:20

when we're doing the hard workouts and our body

45:22

is much more prime to actually run fast.

45:24

Yeah.

45:26

Wow. What a whirlwind, Sarah. We got

45:28

through all of our questions for today.

45:31

Is there anything on any of those questions that

45:33

we didn't really get to that you wanted to highlight

45:36

for our listeners today? And

45:38

let me first just say thank you to everyone who submitted

45:41

their questions.

45:42

Yeah. Thank you everyone for the questions. It was

45:44

awesome. And I feel like if

45:47

you're going into a new training

45:49

cycle, if you have a race coming up,

45:52

maybe you're in paper phase right now,

45:54

like just know that you

45:56

can do it. Know that

45:58

you've put in all.

45:59

the hard work,

46:01

trust yourself, prove yourself right

46:03

with every mile, and it's going to be an awesome

46:05

experience. And then you get to rest,

46:08

recover and do everything all over

46:10

again.

46:11

I love it. And you know, since we are

46:13

talking about progression and some of

46:15

these big picture things about training

46:18

cycles and multi year goals

46:21

and things like that, I think a

46:23

big principle to maybe leave

46:25

our listeners with is this idea of progressive

46:29

overload. And it has to happen both

46:31

within a cycle and also from cycle

46:33

to cycle. So for example, Sarah,

46:36

you're training really well right now, you're hoping to have

46:39

a fantastic half marathon tomorrow.

46:42

We saw each other, I want to say roughly

46:44

a month ago, a couple weeks ago, we were running,

46:46

and you're saying you were running over 70 miles

46:49

a week, you didn't always

46:51

run 70 miles a week, this training

46:53

cycle that you're currently in is

46:56

a huge level up from training

46:58

cycles that you might have accomplished one

47:01

or even two years ago. Is that right?

47:03

Yeah, that's correct. This I'm, I'm

47:06

training for my sixth marathon. And each

47:09

training cycle builds

47:11

on the last training

47:13

cycle, right? And I sprinkled in

47:15

a lot of half marathons, like I'm running and

47:18

racing a half marathon tomorrow. I'm

47:20

racing a marathon in five

47:22

weeks. And I've sprinkled in speed,

47:25

I've raced some five k's and 10 k's. I'm going back

47:27

to that after running CIM, I think

47:29

that's going to be a huge up level

47:31

to my training. And it really

47:34

each training cycle really does build on

47:37

the last one. So

47:39

I ran Boston earlier this year,

47:42

we touched 73 miles,

47:45

I had a lot of hilly long runs, we added

47:47

in strength. For this training cycle,

47:49

we really focused in on let's do

47:52

a let's run a little bit more higher mileage.

47:54

Let's have some awesome tuneups. I ran a

47:57

5k race three weeks

47:59

ago in Chicago. I have the Indianapolis

48:01

half tomorrow and then CIM

48:03

for the last build and So

48:05

there's a lot of quality. There's a lot of high mileage.

48:08

I'm still practicing my strength training

48:10

and getting into the gym And

48:12

really my mindset has shifted a lot in

48:14

this training cycle specifically So I

48:16

have a much stronger mind going into

48:19

these races into the high

48:21

high mileage weeks And it's a great place

48:23

to be but know that when you

48:26

do see someone running Maybe

48:28

as much as I am know that it does take a lot

48:30

of time It takes a lot of practice

48:33

and you're inching forward

48:35

if you take big jumps Typically,

48:38

you'll see an injury or something happen.

48:41

It could be burnout from the athlete So if you inch

48:43

forward and just change maybe it's one

48:46

maybe two things in your training cycle each

48:49

time At some point you'll get

48:51

to where you want to be. Maybe it is running high mileage

48:53

Maybe it is running that 70 75 miles a week

48:59

But really know trust yourself and

49:01

know that you'll get there and it's

49:03

just a matter of time Time's gonna

49:05

pass anyways, so we might as well train

49:08

and do what we can and eventually we'll get

49:10

there

49:11

Yeah, I like how your progress has

49:13

included Progress

49:15

in a lot of different areas, you know, you've

49:17

gotten more consistent

49:19

with Strength training over

49:22

time. So you've progressed with

49:24

your strength training You have progressed with

49:26

your overall weekly mileage You

49:28

probably progressed with how you

49:31

approach tune-up races, you know,

49:33

probably with it for your first marathon Maybe

49:35

you didn't run a tune-up race because you're so focused

49:37

on the training or you just did one tune-up

49:39

race And now you're just racing all the time

49:42

because you can just get after

49:44

it, right? Yeah

49:44

Yeah In my first training cycle

49:47

I ran like five races in that training

49:49

cycle and I didn't know what I was doing This is

49:51

a long time ago so I just registered

49:54

for all these races and then it ended up being just

49:56

a lot of Intense

49:57

like race weekends, right?

49:59

But yeah, each training cycle

50:02

I learned so much about myself and

50:04

it's something that I really hope

50:06

that everyone, once they get

50:08

through training cycle, you run your A-goal

50:11

race, take some time to really reflect

50:13

on what worked, what didn't work in the training cycle,

50:16

what you can up-level for the next

50:18

training cycle. It could be in nutrition,

50:20

it could be in sleep, it could be

50:23

this summer I added in heat training and

50:26

my coach asked me to start

50:28

running around 10, 11 a.m. or even in the afternoon if

50:30

I could

50:33

fit that into my schedule. That's

50:36

a huge game changer too, so I really suggest

50:39

leaning into the uncomfortable parts

50:41

maybe that you don't want to really explore

50:43

in training because that's where you're going to find

50:45

the most growth. That'll lead

50:47

to maybe some fun race times.

50:49

Well, I'm excited. Well, Sarah, best

50:52

of luck tomorrow. I hope you accomplish your goal

50:54

and it's everything you hoped it would be. If

50:56

folks want to connect with you somewhere on

50:58

the internets, where might they be able to find

51:01

you?

51:01

Yeah, I'm on Instagram at Sarah,

51:04

S-A-R-A-H, runs happy

51:06

and at Elevate Your Running. My coaching

51:09

website is elevateyourrunning.com

51:12

and you can find me in both of those places.

51:15

There we go. Well, Sarah, thanks for your time today. I

51:17

appreciate

51:18

it. Thanks, Jason.

51:20

And that's our show. Thank you for

51:22

listening. Now, if you're a fan of my work here

51:24

on the podcast, you can pay it forward

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show my friends. If I can ever be of service

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can find me on Instagram, on the

55:49

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StrengthRunning.com. We'll talk

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soon.