0:00

Ready, set,

0:03

go! This is episode 327 with registered

0:06

dietician, running

0:09

coach, and former track athlete for the

0:11

University of Richmond, Kylie Van

0:13

Horn.

0:22

Welcome to the Strength Running Podcast. I'm

0:25

your host, Coach Jason Fitzgerald, and my

0:27

singular goal is to help you improve

0:29

your running by getting stronger, racing

0:31

faster, preventing more injuries, and

0:34

achieving more of your goals. I'm

0:36

the head coach of Strength Running, formerly

0:38

a 239 marathoner, and

0:40

a monthly columnist for Trail Runner Magazine.

0:42

You can learn more about me and Strength Running

0:45

at strengthrunning.com. And

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if you enjoy this show, then please support

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2:29

Alright, my guest today is Kylie

2:31

Van Horn, a sought-after sports

2:33

dietician here in Colorado who

2:36

works with some of the best trail and road runners

2:38

out there. Kylie has a BA in biology

2:40

and pre-veterinary medicine from the University

2:43

of Richmond and a Bachelors of Science

2:45

in human nutrition from Metropolitan

2:47

State University in Denver. She

2:50

completed her dietetic internship through

2:52

the University of Northern Colorado.

2:55

She is a running coach, a featured bi-monthly

2:57

columnist for Trail Runner magazine, and

2:59

the founder of Fly Nutrition, where she

3:02

offers nutrition services to athletes around

3:04

the world. You can learn more about Fly Nutrition

3:07

at FlyNutrition.org. In

3:09

this conversation, we're focusing on a wide-ranging

3:12

topic like under-fueling,

3:14

why backloading your calories may not be

3:16

the best idea, her views on intermittent

3:19

fasting and restricted eating, the

3:21

habits that you can create around your diet,

3:24

muscle soreness, whether runners should take creatine,

3:26

and a lot more. If these conversations

3:29

are interesting to you, you can also download

3:31

a bonus podcast episode with

3:33

another registered dietician at strengthrunning.com

3:37

slash nutrition hyphen

3:39

QA. And now, without

3:41

further delay, please enjoy my conversation

3:44

with Kylie Van Horn.

3:46

Hey Kylie, thanks for being here. Hey,

3:49

I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

3:51

Yeah, I'm excited. We are going to talk

3:53

about something that I don't talk

3:55

about nearly enough. We're

3:58

always talking about the training and the running. and

4:00

all the workouts we do and all the strategy

4:02

that goes into that. But I'm excited

4:05

to talk to you about all the other

4:07

things that can really impact

4:09

our performance as runners. And a

4:12

big one of them is our nutrition. But

4:14

before we get into all that, and I know we're going to go

4:17

down the rabbit hole, I'd love to hear a little bit more about

4:19

about your background as an athlete, Kylie.

4:22

Yeah, for sure. I

4:24

was a runner. Since

4:27

I've been 10 years, was I was 10

4:29

years old, my dad is an Olympic

4:31

trials marathon qualifier, and

4:35

grew up in that household, ran

4:37

high school, ran at the University

4:40

of Richmond in college. And

4:43

then post-collegiantly, I ran with

4:46

some groups in Boulder when

4:48

I moved out to Colorado and

4:50

tried to qualify

4:53

for the trials myself, but missed

4:55

it by a few minutes back in 2012.

4:58

And then switched to trail. And

5:01

honestly,

5:02

I love nothing against road running,

5:04

but trail running has been life changing.

5:07

Just, I feel like the community has

5:10

been really great for me, just a little bit more

5:13

laid back at times. And

5:16

it's allowed for me to just get out

5:18

and explore the area where I live.

5:21

In the mountains now, I live

5:22

near Aspen, Colorado.

5:25

So

5:25

mostly compete in trail

5:28

running events now and do

5:31

some Nordic seeing and sea mountaineering

5:33

too.

5:34

Oh, that's so fun. And I love how

5:36

you're having this like new season

5:39

of running after your road racing

5:42

season after your college training.

5:45

That's just really fun. And you certainly live in probably

5:48

one of the best states for amazing

5:50

trail running. So yeah,

5:52

I want to talk a little bit more about endurance

5:56

runners and the mistakes

5:58

that we make with our are

6:00

eating and nutrition habits. Let's

6:03

start with common mistakes. I think,

6:05

you know, you're a dietician that works with so

6:07

many endurance athletes, runners,

6:10

also triathletes. And I

6:12

wonder if you happen to see the same nutrition

6:15

or diet problems that come up

6:17

repeatedly.

6:19

Yeah, I do. And I think

6:21

it's by no mistake of anyone

6:24

out there because there is a lot of

6:26

conflicting nutrition information

6:28

out there, and I feel

6:30

like people get confused.

6:33

And that's what I try

6:35

to do with my messaging is to clarify

6:38

some of that and try to,

6:41

sometimes it might sound oversimplified,

6:44

but when I work one-on-one with someone, we're going

6:46

to dive into details on their specifics

6:49

of their nutrition. But overall, I want the message

6:51

to be clear of things

6:55

that should

6:55

be happening for overall fueling

6:58

strategy. So

7:00

in regards to race

7:03

fueling, I would say, oftentimes

7:06

there are things that are missed. If

7:08

someone's having stomach issues,

7:10

they might start thinking, oh,

7:12

well, I need to eat less, or I need to change

7:14

up my fuel source.

7:16

And that might be the case, but also it could

7:18

be that you need to eat more. It could be

7:20

that you need to dial in your fluid

7:22

and electrolyte strategy. So

7:25

thinking outside the box there when troubleshooting

7:27

your fueling plan. When we look

7:29

at daily nutrition, I

7:31

think there are a lot of fads out there.

7:33

So we always

7:35

joke, well, you and I have joked

7:38

on my Instagram about so-and-so

7:40

down the street is doing this latest diet

7:43

trend. And

7:45

for endurance athletes,

7:47

that might not be the best strategy to do

7:49

the newest diet trend or the newest

7:52

thing that you need to cut out of your diet. I

7:56

think it's talked about on

7:58

the other end of the spectrum. about eating

8:00

enough. And I think that that

8:02

concept of eating enough, people

8:05

don't really

8:05

understand what that means

8:07

because they're like, well, do

8:10

I just eat until I'm full? Or

8:12

like, what if I'm, you know, I'm never hungry.

8:14

And so there's like all of these things that

8:16

happen with people where they don't really understand what

8:19

enough is for them. And that's the

8:21

piece where, you know, someone

8:23

like myself or another sports dietitian

8:25

can help try to figure out what

8:27

your needs are to match your training day.

8:29

And what does that look like from a sustainability

8:32

perspective for you to

8:34

try and figure out what's gonna work long-term.

8:37

But I'm not about like

8:39

extreme restriction and cutting

8:41

things out of the diet and

8:44

some magical like supplement

8:46

that so-and-so said it's gonna, you

8:48

know, help with performance.

8:52

I do like to take an open mind if

8:54

there's, you know, new research out there. But

8:56

I think that that can ultimately

8:59

confuse people

8:59

if they're,

9:02

you know, just seeing one study and saying

9:04

like, this is the end of the all to a

9:06

situation. So I

9:09

would say that's a

9:10

problematic area. And then, you

9:13

know, the supplement piece,

9:14

always a problematic area like what

9:17

should I take? What should I not be taking? Do

9:19

I need 50 different supplements? Do I

9:22

not?

9:22

And wading

9:24

through that, again, is difficult. Like

9:27

for the most part, you don't

9:29

necessarily need 50 different supplements,

9:31

but in certain cases, certain supplements

9:34

might

9:34

actually be beneficial to you depending

9:36

on what you're trying to achieve.

9:38

So

9:39

again, working with somebody that understands

9:42

like evidence-based science,

9:45

and then also companies that might be reputable.

9:48

So you might be able to then gather

9:50

like what you, what might be beneficial

9:52

for you

9:52

can be helpful

9:54

when you're working

9:56

with someone that's a professional in the area.

9:59

So

10:00

does that kind of, I mean, it's so

10:02

broad. There's so many things I would

10:04

say, so many common mistakes

10:07

that people make,

10:09

that it's difficult for me

10:11

almost to pick out like

10:13

all of the different things that people get

10:15

confused about or make

10:18

mistakes on with their nutrition.

10:19

Yeah, it's almost like an endless list of

10:22

things you maybe could get wrong. But

10:25

at the same time, it's also something

10:27

that we probably shouldn't overcomplicate.

10:30

I'd love to talk a little bit more about not

10:33

eating enough. You mentioned how

10:35

a lot of runners don't understand what

10:38

enough means. How

10:40

do you determine what is enough?

10:42

Do you actually have to go get metabolic testing

10:45

and figure out your basal metabolic

10:47

rate and how much you're exercising? Is it

10:49

that complicated or is there

10:51

a little workaround to figure out

10:53

how many calories we need? And

10:57

I'm also curious if you break things down

10:59

a little bit more granularly

11:02

into macronutrients as well.

11:04

Yeah, I mean, I think so this is where

11:06

you

11:07

got to tread lightly

11:09

with someone's history. Like some

11:12

of my athletes, yeah, we actually go

11:15

and they get metabolic testing done because

11:17

it's something that they

11:19

feel confident that they want to learn

11:21

and that they feel like they're using

11:23

it as a learning tool and not an overly obsessive

11:26

tool. And so with certain people, I will

11:28

do that.

11:28

But for a lot of the population

11:31

that

11:31

I work with, we

11:34

don't need to go to that extreme. And

11:37

there are guidelines and standards

11:39

that we can use to estimate

11:42

what your needs are for different days of training

11:44

for protein, carbohydrates, and fats.

11:47

And normally I'm doing that versus

11:49

like straight calorie counting, because

11:52

a lot of people have already negative relationships

11:54

with calories.

11:56

So our macronutrients

11:58

are going to add up to.

11:59

calorie caloric intake.

12:02

So taking a

12:04

macronutrient focus and then

12:06

applying visuals to those macronutrients

12:09

can be really helpful because for

12:13

a lot of people counting numbers and

12:15

obsessing over that, again, it can be

12:17

triggering and just

12:20

really not

12:20

productive overall, too time

12:22

consuming for them as well. So

12:27

things like that, numbers can be

12:29

used maybe as a learning tool, but

12:31

really ultimately having confidence in a visual

12:34

perspective can be really nice with

12:36

protein carbon fat consumption.

12:40

And then I think something that's lost

12:44

in the endurance space is that

12:46

intuition piece too. Like the

12:48

ability, we get so caught up

12:51

in the stress of our training, the stress

12:53

of our lives.

12:54

We are kind of mechanical

12:57

maybe and just like getting in food

12:59

or not getting in food. And we start

13:01

to forget about hunger and fullness and what that actually

13:04

looks like.

13:05

And that can be individualized,

13:08

but getting some awareness around hunger and fullness

13:10

cues and

13:11

how do I actually feel? How does this food make

13:13

me feel?

13:14

Am I satisfied? Am I not? Can

13:17

be really helpful tool in helping you

13:19

kind of determine like what your needs

13:21

are without

13:23

getting metabolic testing and

13:25

whatnot. And I think it's important to remember

13:28

that our bodies are not

13:30

calculated machines. So even if you have

13:33

a metabolic reading, like you're not

13:35

hooked up to a metabolic part 24 seven.

13:37

So you're not fully

13:39

going to know what your energy requirements

13:42

are. It's still all

13:43

an estimation.

13:44

So being able to read your body is really

13:46

important.

13:47

I think something that is

13:50

also lost on

13:51

that side of things

13:54

is like

13:55

just eating intuitively. Like people

13:57

get stressed about that

14:00

they're like, well, that doesn't work for me. And

14:01

like, I'm not hungry because I'm endurance

14:04

training and like, I lose my appetite.

14:06

So

14:06

I think having the ability

14:09

to be, I call it intentional,

14:11

but also intuitive, is really important

14:13

in combining

14:14

the two.

14:15

And knowing that intentionally,

14:17

like,

14:18

after a hard workout, or after

14:20

a long training session, I might not

14:22

be hungry, but I need to

14:25

fuel myself.

14:26

So those are just some of the kind

14:29

of tips I usually give people.

14:31

And then

14:32

depending on the person to

14:34

like, the use of something

14:36

like a

14:37

tracking tool like chronometer

14:40

or something might be a way to

14:42

get a look at what you're doing. But

14:44

again, there's still discrepancy there. We know

14:46

that the tracking tools have inaccuracies,

14:49

there's human error, and then there's

14:51

fitness tool error as well,

14:54

like our watches and with straps

14:56

and all that are going to have

14:57

up to like 20% inaccuracy

15:00

as well. So there,

15:02

we again, we can get ideas

15:04

and trends from these things. But

15:06

we have to know

15:08

how to read our bodies too. Yeah,

15:10

it seems it's just just like with our training

15:13

as well. You know, there's always value in having

15:15

a fancy GPS watch that tells you all these

15:17

metrics. But if you can also

15:19

layer in some intuitive feelings

15:22

of how you're feeling when you're running a workout,

15:25

or in a race or long run, you know,

15:27

you end up missing some things. And so

15:29

I love this marriage of using

15:32

some of this data in these tools

15:34

in a really strategic way, but

15:36

then also relying on just how you feel

15:39

after you eat and what you think you need. It

15:41

does seem like a lot of this is habit related,

15:44

you know, I think we all understand intellectually

15:47

that we have to fuel our

15:49

running. But a lot of us are

15:52

parents or have crazy schedules or

15:54

just are super busy, or we travel a lot.

15:57

And then it becomes more challenging to

16:00

be able to eat enough food to support the training

16:02

that we're doing. Are there any simple

16:06

habit changes that you've found to be really

16:08

effective for endurance runners who might

16:10

struggle to get in the

16:13

number of calories or even carbohydrate

16:16

that they need? Nicole

16:17

Jardimas Yeah, I mean, I think this is where,

16:21

unfortunately, it does require a little

16:23

bit of upfront effort, trying

16:25

to figure out what that's going to look

16:27

like for you. I think this

16:30

is one of the foundational skills

16:32

that I like to teach athletes is

16:35

the planning process and

16:37

thinking

16:37

ahead, like, do I have

16:40

a big training week coming up? What does that

16:42

look like? And then in my planning

16:44

process, can

16:46

I think ahead for that and be able

16:48

to have things on hand that will

16:50

help me? Because I know I'm going to be busier.

16:53

I know I'm going to run the kids places or I'm

16:55

traveling for work.

16:57

And then if you have those

16:59

things in place

17:01

that you can use in your toolbox,

17:04

then that can help you meet your needs. So things like

17:07

examples might be

17:10

where you have

17:13

a hard time getting calories

17:14

in on increased training days,

17:16

but you know that you need a

17:19

higher amount of fat because they

17:21

are going to give you extra calories overall.

17:24

So do you have nut

17:26

butter packets available? Do you drizzle

17:28

a little bit of extra olive oil in your

17:31

normal meals? Do

17:33

you have, I don't

17:35

know, just making sure you have avocado

17:38

or something, you

17:38

know, like making sure you have the staples

17:41

to help you achieve those increased needs.

17:44

Carbohydrate wise,

17:46

sometimes we need to maybe think outside of

17:48

our box

17:49

and think

17:51

through, okay, well, if I'm short

17:54

on time and I'm exercising

17:56

a lot this day and I have increased

17:58

carb needs,

17:59

maybe.

17:59

I should have some juice available

18:02

and like some people out there might freak out

18:04

because they like

18:05

are like Oh my gosh juices like pure

18:07

sugar and I shouldn't be drinking that

18:10

etc

18:11

And everyone's preferences might

18:13

be different But the reality is

18:15

is like under feeling overall might

18:17

be worse for you and your blood sugar control Then

18:19

having some juice

18:21

to help you meet your card needs

18:23

And I think like I even work

18:25

with athletes on like,

18:26

okay Like having this juice pre

18:28

or post exercise could be a really good

18:31

option for you to have a quick card

18:33

source to Get your energy up or

18:35

replace glycogen source. Like if you're

18:38

really worried about that or like

18:40

pairing your Pairing

18:42

this juice with a protein source and

18:44

help keep your blood sugar a little bit more balanced

18:47

So you get your cards and you get some

18:50

protein in to keep your keep your blood

18:53

sugar more balanced. So

18:54

There are nutrition strategies that

18:57

you can use to

18:59

try and You know

19:01

make things more convenient for you, but also

19:04

meet your needs in a way that's going to work

19:06

I do the same thing with like people

19:08

that are traveling for business, etc Like

19:12

what easy snacks could you pack for yourself

19:14

so that you can

19:15

prepare yourself when you're on your business

19:17

trip? Or is there a convenience store nearby?

19:20

What could you get the convenience store that

19:22

would help you meet

19:23

your needs and thinking about that ahead of

19:25

time? Versus in the moment like I

19:27

was just talking with a

19:29

an athlete earlier That's a fitness trainer

19:32

and a runner and she like works out Literally

19:35

like 25 hours a week

19:37

like with everything all together and

19:39

we're trying to think through ways

19:42

that she can like pack things to go with

19:45

her and Grab things

19:47

conveniently,

19:47

etc. So, you know

19:50

thinking

19:50

through a Accord

19:53

list of items to kind of help

19:55

you if you know that like carbs

19:58

are really hard for you to get in or approach or

20:00

fats, like whatever macronutrients

20:03

you know are hard for you, thinking

20:05

through that and having

20:07

that available for you

20:09

so that you don't have that decision

20:11

fatigue.

20:12

Sometimes the decision

20:13

fatigue in the moment is also what prevents

20:15

people from feeling themselves because they're like,

20:18

oh, I

20:19

don't really want to think about this.

20:21

This is not going to be

20:24

convenient for me. I really just, you

20:26

know, it's, it's,

20:28

I might as well not feel, you

20:31

know, Kylie, I had a small

20:33

can of pineapple juice earlier today

20:36

on a meeting because I didn't really have time to

20:38

eat anything. And I did have this really

20:40

interesting, like split

20:42

second moment of guilt where

20:45

I thought I was going to be judged because

20:48

I was drinking juice

20:50

and I'm a running coach. I need to be

20:52

advising people on healthy habits.

20:55

And it was just really interesting thing. I was like, no, I just

20:57

went for a run. I don't really have time

20:59

right now for a whole sandwich

21:02

or something. So I'm just going to have this can of pineapple

21:04

juice. And yeah,

21:07

it was exactly what you were, you were just mentioning.

21:09

And it held me over until I could actually eat some

21:12

real food. I want to talk

21:14

a little bit more about protein though. I think this

21:16

is a macronutrient that a lot

21:18

of runners don't think too much about

21:20

because our performances are not fueled

21:23

by protein. But nevertheless, protein

21:25

is, in my mind, maybe the

21:27

most important macronutrient, although we can

21:29

have a brawl about that later. Tell

21:33

me about some problems you see with endurance

21:36

runners and protein, like obviously,

21:38

not getting enough is going to hamper

21:40

your recovery. But

21:42

I saw you talk in another venue

21:45

about how having

21:47

protein not spaced

21:49

evenly throughout the day can also be a

21:51

problem. I'd love to hear your thoughts more on this.

21:54

Yeah, I mean, I think when we look from

21:56

our perspective of

21:58

maximum muscle protein.

21:59

synthesis rates, whether it's like

22:02

somebody that's strength training

22:03

or doing endurance sports,

22:05

part of the goal is

22:08

to break down and then

22:10

repair. And so in order to do

22:12

that, if we actually spread

22:14

our protein out throughout

22:16

the day more evenly, it can

22:19

help us reach those maximum muscle protein

22:21

synthesis rates and help with maximum

22:24

rate of recovery and adaptation. And

22:26

so when I'm working with people, I like to evaluate

22:29

not

22:29

only are you getting into things that you

22:31

need with protein

22:32

or carbs or fats, but how

22:34

does that look throughout the day and how

22:37

are you kind of timing things,

22:40

I guess.

22:40

I think

22:43

with protein specifically,

22:46

I like to think about it

22:48

in boxes, like trying to fill

22:51

your boxes with like smaller

22:53

amounts of protein throughout the day just to

22:55

be able to conceptualize what

22:57

that looks like for you.

22:59

And

23:01

the other thing I just thought, I forgot

23:04

about this piece too, would be the blood

23:06

sugar balance piece. So thinking

23:08

through,

23:10

you know, that when you

23:12

have your protein spread out throughout the

23:14

day, it can keep your blood sugar, it allows

23:16

for the carbohydrate to release into

23:18

the bloodstream a little bit more slowly,

23:21

keep the blood sugar a little bit more

23:23

even throughout the day and

23:25

give you a more steady energy. It

23:28

can allow if we

23:30

don't have as many blood sugar spikes

23:32

and drops, it might keep your inflammation

23:34

levels more stable and

23:36

get that

23:37

recovery time, probably feeling

23:39

more recovered throughout

23:41

your day. So lots of reasons why

23:43

spreading protein out throughout the day is

23:46

important and not just maybe that

23:48

amount overall.

23:50

And then, yeah,

23:52

strategy wise, I like for people to

23:54

think about filling their

23:56

boxes up throughout the day to kind

23:59

of achieve.

23:59

that goal of meeting needs.

24:02

And then really

24:05

trying to think through, I would say

24:08

the people that struggle the most with this are

24:10

going to be plant-based athletes.

24:13

But when I've worked with my plant-based

24:15

athletes, even those that are

24:18

really struggling getting in like 50% of

24:20

their needs at the beginning while we get started,

24:23

we always brainstorm through

24:25

like

24:26

higher protein snack ideas and

24:28

like you know things like dried edamame

24:31

can be a great source of protein. So trying

24:34

to think outside of their box of like

24:36

a protein bar as the

24:38

only option to get in protein can

24:42

be really

24:42

helpful. So that's where like

24:44

you know it takes, I want to bring this back

24:47

to

24:48

with anything that you're working on with

24:50

your nutrition, it takes a little

24:52

bit of effort up front

24:54

to figure out what that's gonna look like for

24:56

you and how you're gonna make

24:58

it happen. And then

25:00

moving forward you have some

25:03

strategies or nutrition skills in

25:05

place.

25:06

I like to call it my adaptable

25:09

athlete.

25:09

So you can adapt in any situation

25:11

whether you're traveling or

25:13

you know in a place that you can only go

25:15

to the convenience store or whatever. You're

25:19

able to adapt to that situation. I

25:22

actually think what you just said is is

25:24

so critically important that I want to highlight

25:26

it because I think you

25:28

know we understand as athletes that we

25:31

have to exercise differently than

25:33

the average person to accomplish

25:36

our athletic goals. But that

25:38

also means that we typically have to eat

25:40

a little bit differently than the average person

25:43

because it needs to fuel our exercise

25:45

which is very different than the average person. And

25:48

I think having a plan ahead of time

25:51

is so helpful but also

25:54

not something most of us ever even think

25:56

about because eating is something that we're

25:58

gonna be doing whether we're running or not

26:00

running. It's something that we all

26:03

have to do every day no matter what. And

26:05

so we don't usually put a

26:07

plan around our diet

26:10

unless we have some weight loss goal. But if

26:12

we're athletes, our goal is

26:15

fueling those workouts and recovering

26:18

properly from those workouts. So having

26:20

a plan and just thinking ahead, just

26:22

like you would with your training, is

26:24

probably, you know, from a habits

26:27

perspective, I think just as important because

26:29

it's going to allow you to make the decisions you

26:32

know you need to make in the moment so

26:34

that you don't succumb to decision fatigue,

26:37

so that you don't just make the easy, you know,

26:39

stress-free choice. You actually have some

26:42

things prepped. You have the, you

26:44

know, food available at

26:46

your house and it really allows you to

26:48

make all the decisions that are going to really help

26:51

your training. Can

26:53

this same thing happen with calories? Like

26:55

can you not spread out your calories

26:59

appropriately and can that negatively

27:01

impact your training? And

27:04

the specific reason I'm asking for this because I know a

27:06

lot of runners back

27:08

load their day when it comes to calories.

27:11

You know, they might eat a small breakfast,

27:13

a medium lunch, and then they'll have a big

27:15

dinner and then maybe a good-sized

27:18

post bed snack or something like that. Is

27:20

that problematic in any way?

27:22

It can for some athletes be a problem

27:24

in the sense that it can

27:27

lead to like binge episodes

27:29

in the evening because they're just getting

27:31

so ravenous that

27:34

later on you like end up eating more

27:36

than maybe

27:37

what you

27:38

would have originally needed if you were able to spread

27:40

things out throughout the day and it can

27:42

affect blood sugar levels, etc. I

27:44

think overall if you're, as

27:46

long as you're getting in the energy intake

27:49

that you need, if that

27:50

works for you, great. But I also

27:52

find that it can affect athlete's sleep quality

27:55

too. And when

27:57

we look at, you know, having big

27:59

meals before bedtime and

28:01

even just like very high carbohydrate

28:04

intake right before

28:05

bedtime

28:06

might cause some micro awakenings

28:09

for people when they're sleeping and affect

28:11

that sleep quality for recovery.

28:13

So thinking about like, is

28:15

this actually optimal for

28:17

my overall recovery strategy?

28:20

Maybe not, you know, again, like

28:22

if you're meeting energy needs might

28:24

be okay, but I would argue that spreading

28:27

it out a little bit more throughout the day energy

28:29

intake wise would be beneficial.

28:32

Could either backloading

28:35

your calories or even backloading

28:37

your protein have an effect on how

28:39

sore you are on a day to day basis?

28:42

Because I know you were talking about muscle protein

28:44

synthesis and having protein in a more

28:46

regular pattern can really

28:49

help with muscle protein synthesis.

28:51

A lot of athletes hear that and they just think muscle

28:54

growth, hypertrophy. As

28:56

runners, a lot of that for us is

28:59

repairing all of the micro trauma

29:01

that we experience when we do a long run or

29:03

a workout. You

29:06

know, and ultimately, like, I don't

29:08

want to be that sore, I want to be able to run

29:10

day to day. Is my

29:13

protein intake directly

29:15

responsible for how I'm feeling

29:18

on a day to day basis with regard to soreness?

29:20

I think it's a little bit complicated because

29:22

actually, like, if you don't get enough

29:25

carbohydrates in, that might

29:26

affect your muscle soreness and recovery

29:29

too. So I think

29:30

when we think about it, overall,

29:33

energy intake is going to be

29:35

king.

29:36

And then from

29:38

there, it might be a little bit more individualized,

29:41

you know, in regards to like,

29:44

someone might be able

29:46

to tolerate like a little bit less

29:47

carbohydrate, but more protein

29:49

and not feel a sore and vice versa.

29:52

So I think like thinking, thinking

29:54

about experimenting,

29:57

I always like for the athletes that we work with

29:59

to see.

29:59

about experimenting with different

30:02

things. I will experiment with people

30:04

for different pre-bedtime

30:07

protein, higher protein snacks,

30:09

or maybe having a little bit more carb, but

30:11

still having some protein in their

30:13

bedtime snack and figuring out what

30:16

helps them feel the most recovered. Because

30:18

I think it is,

30:19

while we are, in a sense, generalizing

30:22

a little bit in some of the things that we're

30:24

talking about, I think it's

30:25

important to remember that we are all individuals,

30:28

and I think we

30:28

will respond differently to different

30:31

foods and different combinations

30:33

of foods, etc. So that's

30:36

that more personalized approach, I

30:38

would say, is kind of figuring out what's going to

30:40

work for you.

30:42

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here, Kylie,

30:45

and assume that you're probably not a fan

30:47

of intermittent fasting or

30:49

any kind of restricted eating pattern

30:52

where you're definitely not eating

30:54

for a certain period of time throughout

30:56

the day. Would I be wrong there? What are your

30:58

thoughts on that?

30:59

Yeah, I mean, I try to keep an open

31:02

mind with this kind of thing, but we work a lot

31:04

with disordered eating, eating disorders,

31:07

and breads, relative energy deficiency

31:10

in sport,

31:11

and intermittent fasting does not

31:14

help those athletes

31:17

with those conditions or the restrictive

31:19

thoughts, etc., actually perpetuates

31:21

them. And

31:24

from a sport specific,

31:25

endurance sport specific perspective,

31:28

looking at trying a couple of

31:30

the things you're just talking about, looking at timing

31:33

and spread of nutrients throughout

31:35

your day, like your protein intake, if you're

31:38

intermittent fasting, you know, you might

31:40

not be able to spread out that protein

31:42

as much throughout the day. Are

31:44

you maximally absorbing micronutrients?

31:47

Like it's hard to hard to say,

31:49

but it makes it more difficult

31:52

to get in your needs

31:54

nutrition wise throughout the day.

31:56

Now, exceptions would

31:58

be,

31:59

somebody has is

32:02

like a diabetic, there is

32:04

research emerging that that

32:06

might be beneficial for blood sugar

32:09

control and changes in the mitochondria. But

32:11

even in our endurance athletes

32:14

that would be diabetic probably

32:16

still wouldn't recommend it for them, but more

32:18

the general population, it might be

32:20

a topic of discussion for someone like that.

32:23

But usually with endurance athletes, we're

32:25

not doing intermittent fasting

32:28

or recommending intermittent fasting.

32:30

I want to ask you Kylie a little bit about eating

32:33

before bed again, I know that it can negatively

32:35

impact your sleep. I'm wondering

32:38

if certain lower

32:40

carbohydrate foods would have

32:43

less of an impact on your sleep.

32:46

And whether or not it's actually

32:48

more beneficial to eat a protein

32:50

rich or a carbohydrate rich

32:53

pre bedtime snack.

32:55

So again, I think this comes down to individual

32:58

responses, because I actually have worked

33:00

with athletes that were that

33:02

have worn continuous glucose monitors,

33:05

and they will test certain

33:07

carbohydrate

33:10

rich foods and will have different

33:12

blood sugar responses than maybe what

33:15

they were even expecting. So

33:16

like oatmeal or something might,

33:19

they might think it might not cause a spike in blood

33:21

sugar, but it's actually causing a pretty big spike

33:23

in blood sugar for them. Or an apple

33:25

might cause someone to spike it

33:28

one way and another person not spiking as

33:30

much. So I

33:31

think we do have to remember that there's

33:32

still again that individuality

33:34

on how we respond to foods, carbohydrate

33:37

rich foods in general.

33:41

Overall, though, I tend to recommend

33:44

a higher protein snack

33:46

before bedtime because it can promote

33:48

sleep quality and muscle

33:50

repair when you are sleeping.

33:52

So trying to maybe focus on that

33:54

a little bit might be beneficial.

33:56

And then I usually say like,

33:58

yeah, combine it with a little bit of carbohydrate,

34:01

but just my main thing is like

34:03

some of my athletes that

34:06

just eat like a bowl of cereal before

34:09

bed with no protein with that

34:11

or a piece of toast

34:13

with jam or something.

34:15

There's nothing wrong with that, but I

34:18

have them compare that intake to a

34:20

higher protein snack like a yogurt

34:22

with a little bit of granola and a little bit

34:24

of fruit

34:25

and they notice a difference in

34:29

their not waking up in the middle of the night hungry,

34:31

they feel more refreshed when they get up in the

34:33

morning and

34:34

there is some

34:37

research to suggest that doing that higher

34:39

protein snack before bedtime does

34:41

actually promote muscle repair and

34:44

recovery. So

34:46

thinking through like what could that look like

34:48

for you? Usually I recommend

34:50

like 10 to 20 grams of high

34:53

quality protein

34:54

before bed and then carbohydrate

34:58

wise 30 to 45 grams snacks

35:01

and maybe you know we have to be mindful

35:04

of

35:05

how much we are eating before

35:07

bedtime right before bedtime too

35:09

because that high GI load right

35:11

before bed that can be hard

35:14

because digestion can slow when you're sleeping

35:16

so you know that might make things difficult

35:18

on your sleep too.

35:21

So that's why I kind of give some parameters

35:23

for the pre

35:24

bedtime snack is it keeps it

35:27

kind of within check. Obviously

35:29

you

35:29

can have a little bit more. I'm not limiting anyone

35:31

on this, but some people like to have some guidelines.

35:35

Do you recommend continuous glucose

35:37

monitors for non diabetics?

35:40

I've heard dieticians come down

35:42

so firmly on either side

35:45

of this debate and my thinking

35:47

is just that if you're curious

35:50

and if there are all of these individual

35:52

responses to certain foods more

35:55

data can help you make better decisions

35:58

about your eating not

36:00

just what you're eating, but also when you're eating it.

36:02

So I can see it as only a good

36:04

thing, as long as it's not gonna predispose

36:07

you to any kind of unhealthy eating habits. Yeah,

36:10

and I mean, I think this is where

36:11

people get

36:14

caught up in taking the extreme

36:16

one side or the other. I don't take that

36:18

extreme for continuous glucose monitors

36:20

because

36:21

I have successfully used

36:23

them with athletes

36:25

for what you're saying. So a couple of things. I

36:28

found benefit with them

36:30

for athletes that have higher

36:32

A1C and they're in the prediabetic

36:34

category, but they are

36:37

vegan and they don't understand, they

36:39

actually are getting protein in, they don't understand

36:42

why their A1C is higher. So

36:44

we might look at what their trends

36:46

are in their blood sugar. I've used

36:48

it for athletes having a GI distress

36:52

in their fueling plan and

36:53

trying to figure out what options

36:56

might make them feel better during their

36:58

exercise.

36:59

I've used it for athletes that have

37:02

a rebound with lipo glycemia, so

37:05

their blood sugar spikes

37:06

and drops at the beginning of exercise

37:08

and they feel like they might pass out.

37:10

So trying to figure out what food options might

37:13

be beneficial for them pre-exercise

37:14

and then trying to

37:16

keep that blood sugar more stable during exercise.

37:20

It's been really interesting

37:22

to look at individual

37:24

responses to gels and

37:27

food blends.

37:28

Some people using

37:30

whole food blends do

37:33

not have a great response to

37:36

like spring or mere energy. Like they can't get

37:38

their blood sugar up

37:39

and it actually makes

37:40

them, they feel lower energy and it

37:42

makes sense because their blood sugar is not going

37:45

up very high. And so

37:48

being able to look through and visualize

37:50

that data with

37:53

the CGM

37:54

has been really beneficial for

37:56

the people that I have used it with.

37:58

Now the counter. point, because

38:02

again, we work with a lot of disordered eating,

38:04

etc. is that it can make people

38:06

more obsessive, give them more data, and then

38:08

that's just overwhelming. And it takes away

38:10

from that

38:11

into intuition that we were talking about

38:13

earlier, and

38:14

like not paying attention to the signs that your

38:16

body is giving you. So

38:18

being

38:20

careful, like if you're somebody that

38:23

does have those kind of tendencies and habits,

38:25

it might not be the best choice for them.

38:27

But I can see pluses and minuses

38:29

to using

38:31

it. And do

38:33

work with athletes on using it

38:35

in certain situations. And

38:37

I've even had athletes,

38:40

I've worked with athletes one on one that

38:43

I've requested that they request it from

38:45

their doctor and get a CGM

38:47

so that we can get more data to

38:49

see what's going on.

38:50

Yeah, if you see me running around with a CGM

38:53

on my arm, you'll know that I'm

38:56

firmly on the bandwagon. I would love

38:58

it. I think it's so interesting. I

39:00

would love to look at my, you

39:02

know, blood sugar level said every hour

39:05

of the day, I just think that's so fascinating.

39:07

You know, my grandmother happens to be a type

39:09

one diabetic, and whenever I visit her, she's

39:12

still doing the old school prick your finger and

39:15

test your blood every morning. And and I

39:17

do that when I'm visiting her because I'm

39:19

just so curious what it might be. Kylie,

39:21

let me ask you some rapid fire questions. These

39:24

are loaded questions. And so

39:26

there's not going to be really an easy

39:28

good answer for you here. But I'd love

39:30

to know your thoughts. Do

39:32

you have do you think there's any highly underrated

39:35

and highly overrated fuel

39:38

options out there for distance runners?

39:40

I do actually feel like

39:43

just traditional job gets

39:45

such a bad rap.

39:48

Like even just like a new energy

39:50

gel, I will chat with athletes and they're like, I would

39:53

never touch that or like, you know,

39:55

a cliff energy gel or something.

39:58

And I think that they can actually be

40:00

really beneficial to people.

40:01

And even if you're not

40:04

going to use it in your race,

40:06

you could think about like some of these gels are

40:09

getting quite expensive.

40:10

So you could actually use some cliff or

40:12

goo that might be a little bit more affordable. And

40:16

you could use that in part of your training. And then as you're

40:18

obviously as you're getting closer to your race, you want to practice

40:20

with what

40:21

you're going to use on race day.

40:22

But I think it's a great choice for people for

40:25

people to use during exercise. Now some

40:27

people might cringe

40:29

and don't like the texture or whatever, which

40:32

is fine. Like everyone has individual preferences.

40:34

But the point is,

40:36

I think like unnecessarily demonizing

40:38

those is

40:39

not

40:40

the best. And then I

40:42

think overrated it are

40:44

whole food options because I think

40:47

there's such a focus on

40:49

using whole foods these days to

40:52

fuel your exercise

40:53

that the thought process is not there. Like if

40:56

you're training for a half marathon or a marathon,

40:59

and you're thinking about all I should use is

41:01

whole foods, you're in the wrong pool

41:03

of thought there. Because you need quick

41:06

energy source or quick carbohydrate

41:08

source to give you the energy you need to

41:10

be running quicker paces for a half marathon

41:13

marathon. If we're getting into ultra

41:15

distance events, then we can talk about whole

41:17

foods more. But I think

41:20

for half marathon you should

41:22

be using more traditional fuel

41:25

sources

41:26

that could include maple

41:28

syrup gels or honey

41:30

gels or something like that if you're wanting

41:33

to go that route. But the

41:35

whole food options like

41:37

eating potatoes or snacking

41:39

on a bar during a marathon or a half,

41:43

that I think is not the

41:45

greatest choice.

41:47

Yeah, this goes back to the idea that you

41:49

are not a regular person. You

41:51

are someone who races half marathons

41:54

and marathons, you have to eat a little

41:56

bit differently just like you have to train

41:58

a little bit differently than the other. the person who's just

42:00

exercising for general health. But

42:03

Kylie, I had no idea that there was some

42:05

sort of movement against traditional

42:08

gels. What is so wrong

42:11

with a goo or a cliff

42:13

gel these days? I remember those were

42:15

the gels that I fueled my entire running

42:17

career on. And of course, there's some

42:19

better options these days. You can go spend like,

42:22

I don't know, you take out a mortgage for a box

42:24

of Morton gels. And

42:26

those might be better for you. All in all,

42:29

I'm a big fan of the simple

42:31

things, precisely because they

42:33

are simple. All right, let's move

42:36

on. I have a very simple question. Do you think

42:38

endurance athletes should be taking

42:40

creatine? I'm seeing a lot of

42:43

just talk about the value of creatine.

42:46

And this used to be like your Jim

42:48

Bro meathead supplement.

42:50

And now all of a sudden endurance athletes are

42:52

thinking about taking it.

42:53

Yeah, I mean,

42:56

I think that

42:57

the research is still,

43:00

there's not a ton of research on

43:02

endurance athletes yet, but there

43:04

is some research emerging on

43:06

the ability if you're taking creatine

43:08

to help with glycogen replenishment

43:11

rate,

43:12

post exercise, potential

43:15

for increased heat

43:17

tolerance and just helping with

43:19

the recovery process. So

43:22

it's not

43:24

necessarily something that

43:27

it's actually one of the most studied

43:29

supplements out there and it's pretty safe.

43:32

So I don't think everyone

43:34

needs to be taking it. But

43:36

for somebody that might be a plant based

43:39

athlete, it might be a good option because they're not

43:41

maybe getting in as much from their diet.

43:44

And then for somebody that's doing like

43:46

higher volume training,

43:49

it'd be an option for them to explore.

43:52

Kylie, what is your favorite supplement

43:54

for runners? Do you have anything that is

43:57

a good recommendation even

43:59

if? you know, you might be a very different runner from

44:02

someone else.

44:03

Oh, boy. Thinking

44:05

through that, it's tough because

44:08

I don't really like

44:10

to generalize supplement protocols

44:12

for people. Because

44:15

I there are a lot of things that

44:17

and I know this message is,

44:20

is perpetuated that like, oh,

44:22

you can just try and get it in through your food.

44:24

And the reality is

44:26

that is hard for a lot of athletes to

44:28

get everything in from their food.

44:30

I think a

44:31

problem area is then taking

44:34

something that has everything

44:36

in it when you might not need like

44:39

a green drink or something taking everything

44:42

in and you might not need everything

44:45

and then that's giving you too much of certain

44:47

things.

44:49

So I hesitate a little bit when

44:51

recommending a supplement

44:54

like an everyday supplement for everyone

44:56

because

44:57

I think that's difficult sometimes to answer.

45:00

One, I will say that is common

45:02

that athletes are

45:05

usually short on and might

45:07

want to consider taking is magnesium.

45:10

And magnesium

45:12

levels for

45:14

athletes for intake are

45:16

elevated from the average layperson.

45:19

And the problem is that

45:21

the food sources that

45:23

contain magnesium,

45:25

even the high magnesium sources,

45:28

it can make it quite difficult to reach your

45:30

needs every day for magnesium.

45:33

And so when you don't have enough

45:35

magnesium, that can affect your

45:37

ferritin

45:38

levels, that can affect your

45:41

muscle cramping. Cramping

45:44

is complicated,

45:44

but it can affect muscle cramping. It

45:47

can affect nerve pulse

45:50

and transmission. It has

45:52

a number of different like enzymatic cellular

45:55

things that it affects,

45:56

brain health, all

45:58

of these different things.

45:59

for magnesium and I just see

46:02

a lot of athletes only coming up

46:04

at about 50% of intake when I do

46:06

dietary

46:09

exploration with

46:10

them. So that's one that potentially

46:12

doing a supplement

46:14

might be beneficial.

46:16

On that note, I do recommend doing

46:18

a magnesium glycinate

46:20

or a threonate if you are gonna take magnesium.

46:23

The oxide and citrate will leave

46:25

you running to the bathroom, so I don't wanna

46:27

be responsible for that. But

46:31

that is probably worth the price of admission

46:33

for this podcast, is just knowing the right

46:36

type of magnesium to take so

46:38

that you don't make a grave, grave

46:40

error.

46:41

Kylie, thanks so much for spending some time

46:43

with us today and sharing your expertise

46:45

on all things endurance nutrition.

46:48

I certainly learned a lot and I think I'm gonna

46:51

be a little bit more strategic with how

46:53

I'm patterning my calorie intake

46:56

throughout the day because I admittedly back

46:59

load my calories. I don't have

47:01

the best eating

47:03

habits and I think that's

47:06

one reason why if I really wanna

47:08

take my training to the next level,

47:10

I need to work on those habits because

47:13

the training will demand

47:15

it. So you've given me a lot to think about.

47:17

Thank you so much. Where can folks

47:19

find you online? Because

47:22

I know that you share a ton

47:24

of really helpful nutrition and

47:26

diet related content. I know on Instagram,

47:29

I'm a big fan of the work that you guys put out.

47:31

Yeah, so Fly

47:33

Nutrition 3 on Instagram and

47:36

then

47:36

my website, flynutrition.org

47:39

and we actually have a lot of on demand

47:42

classes that

47:44

we've done and handouts

47:46

that people can purchase. So

47:48

if you're not looking for one on one health,

47:50

there are alternatives

47:51

to that.

47:52

And then I write a lot for

47:55

Trail Runner Magazine. So you can find

47:57

articles there that I've written.

47:59

if you wanna read more on different

48:01

sports nutrition topics.

48:03

And your website does a really good job at

48:07

showing what articles you've written for Trail

48:09

Runner Magazine. So I'm gonna include links

48:11

to all of that in the show notes on strength

48:13

running. Kylie, thank you

48:15

for being here. I appreciate it. Thank you so much

48:17

for having me. It's been great. And

48:20

that's our show today, my friends. If you're a fan

48:22

of the show, go ahead and give us a review in

48:24

Apple Music. I'm so appreciative of your

48:26

support. You can also take advantage of

48:29

our sponsors discounts and gear that's

48:31

gonna improve your training. First, I'm

48:33

very grateful for the support of AG1, the

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48:41

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48:43

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48:45

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48:50

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Amazon. All right, that's our show, runners.

51:43

Thank you so much for subscribing, sharing

51:46

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51:48

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51:50

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51:53

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51:55

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51:57

number one goal is to elevate your running.

51:59

So feel free to reach out through

52:02

the Strengths Running website or you can message

52:04

me on Instagram at JasonFistOne.

52:07

We'll be in touch.