0:00

Rather, Than. For.

0:03

Know. This is episodes

0:05

three hundred and forty eight with

0:08

Running Coach Strength Coach and Ultra

0:10

Marathon Or Coach Holly Martin. Welcome

0:21

to the Strength Running Podcast! I'm

0:23

your Host Coach Jason Fitzgerald's in

0:25

my singular goal is to help

0:28

you improve you running like getting

0:30

stronger, racing faster, preventing more injuries,

0:32

in achieving more of your goals.

0:35

And. I gotta say guys, I've

0:37

really love.last few episodes the recovery

0:39

conversation with Dr. Peter Tyranny was

0:42

really popular, so I'm glad that

0:44

you enjoyed that. Now. If you're

0:46

new here, I'm a former cross country

0:48

and track and field athlete for Connecticut

0:51

College, a columnist for Trail Runner Magazine,

0:53

and a to thirty nine marathoner. You

0:55

want to learn more about me and

0:57

strength running? go to Strength running.com. And.

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Guess today is Coach Holly Martin.

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You might recognize Holly if you

4:46

see clips of this episode on

4:49

my Instagram address and sits one

4:51

see a film. Hundreds of videos

4:54

for the Run experience over the

4:56

years and has coached both runners

4:58

and strength athletes. Holly. As

5:01

a unique background which makes her

5:03

perspective on training so valuable to

5:05

it's formerly a professional ballet dancer

5:07

before getting into cross fit and

5:10

then ultra marathon, what rains? Holly

5:12

can seemingly do it all. And.

5:14

In our conversation today, we're talking

5:17

about a specific situation. Alter.

5:19

And strength training. Set. Off a

5:22

runner strength dream. House, It'd be

5:24

different compared to a middle distance

5:26

runner. What? Happens when running needs

5:28

to take priority over strength training and

5:30

how said strength training progress over the

5:33

course of an old for season. By.

5:35

The Way: If you're ready to

5:38

start strength training but you're not

5:40

sure where to start, get our

5:42

complimentary strength series at Strength running.com/strength.

5:45

You. Learn more about com and training

5:47

errors. Had a lift for power and

5:49

all be amazing physical benefits you can

5:52

expect. And. Now without further

5:54

delay, please enjoy my conversation with

5:56

Holly Martin. Holly Welcome

5:58

to the show! Thank you. Happy

6:01

to be here. So Holly, I have to

6:03

admit, I have been a fan of your content

6:05

for years. You've probably recorded more

6:07

training videos than I have, which is kind

6:09

of a tall order there. And

6:13

I've always appreciated your very direct

6:15

communication style. So I'm excited to

6:17

connect here and learn more from

6:19

you. Awesome. I'm super excited to do

6:21

so. It's funny how many years have gone by

6:23

of doing it. And you don't even realize and

6:25

you're like, how many times have I talked about

6:28

this one topic? But you realize that

6:30

whoever clicked on that might not have seen

6:32

anything else. And you have to talk with

6:34

fresh perspective, you know. But

6:36

yeah, it feels like no time has gone by at the same time. Yeah.

6:39

And you know, the funny thing about strength

6:42

training and just training theory in general too

6:44

is I feel like the

6:46

rate of our learning on these

6:48

topics is almost increasing year

6:51

by year. We're just learning so

6:53

much about what works and the

6:55

different ways that we can do things. And

6:58

I'm excited to learn from you in

7:00

particular, Holly, because you inhabit this really

7:02

interesting space of being both

7:04

a running and a strength coach

7:07

and someone who has done ultra marathons

7:09

up to the hundred mile distance, if

7:11

I'm not mistaken, and you

7:13

have a CrossFit background. So you've

7:16

done it all. And

7:18

you started as a professional ballet dancer

7:20

and did that for five years. So

7:23

you have just this very varied

7:25

athletic background that I just

7:28

think is not only fun and

7:30

interesting, but also I think just

7:32

really prepares you for the demands

7:35

of especially running ultra marathons. Totally.

7:38

If you had asked me, you know, at

7:40

even like 16, if I would think that that

7:42

would be the trajectory, I totally

7:44

wouldn't have seen it coming in

7:47

any capacity at all. But

7:49

it is strange how much they

7:51

all go together and how

7:54

much they can all compliment each other. But

7:57

It's funny because all three of those things, ballet,

7:59

CrossFit, ultra running. Don't. Technically

8:02

belong together and they're all very

8:04

cold flight when you cross into

8:06

each other, they don't. They.

8:09

Don't love it in L like I

8:11

feel like I'm especially the cross this

8:13

ultra marathon. There's more of a gaffe

8:15

now where there's a crossover, but I

8:17

feel like that is total opposite. Short.

8:19

Sprint he must silly And then

8:22

you're supposed to do this for

8:24

twelve plus hours. You know? going

8:26

into something wrong. So. There's.

8:28

Definitely a. A

8:31

ballet runner crossed it. Or an alternative?

8:33

You walk into a bar joke in

8:35

here somewhere somewhere somewhere. Are you guys?

8:37

I've. Gotta get back together Cel

8:39

Assists. But here's here's a challenge to

8:41

our listeners. If you come up with the joke,

8:43

please send it to Holly and I. I wouldn't

8:46

be enough to hear it. And

8:48

then I'll use it or give you credit, no

8:50

years and the next next place I end up

8:52

that sounds. Fair. But.

8:54

It is funny I think at that.

8:56

Exact. Nature of going from

8:59

one thinks the next day know even a

9:01

lot of runners experience like different. Categories

9:03

of running that they become passe about

9:06

whether it's like injury caused them to

9:08

change categories or doing really well at

9:10

a certain race Changed. Categories.

9:12

That I'm or whatever like others as my saying. Any

9:15

that's like life raising an Isis how it

9:17

continues to unfold as like you go with

9:19

your strengths and maybe adversity helps you get

9:22

there as well. I would love to

9:24

know what was going through your head when. You.

9:26

Were does professional ballet dancer and then

9:28

all of a sudden you're like I

9:31

think I'm going to start running ultra

9:33

marathons. Like was that a natural transition

9:35

or was very significant moment that pushed

9:37

you in that direction. It. Was

9:39

at. It was actually a pretty

9:42

significant head space that I was

9:44

an arm for. I. Would say

9:46

the second half of college. So I

9:48

I majored in ballet at University Attire,

9:50

which is a really strong Valley program.

9:52

The plan was always. Though.

9:55

Do as a professional route after

9:57

this whether it be freelance contemporary

9:59

that. or audition and be in

10:01

a small company, you know, or larger, whatever

10:03

came about. And really

10:06

what it was, was the

10:08

really tough thing about ballet and

10:11

for my body type, at my

10:13

absolute skinniest leanest I've ever been,

10:15

I'm still extremely muscular

10:17

and stocky, built more like a gymnast than

10:19

a dancer. So

10:22

at my best, working

10:24

my hardest, as best I could be in

10:26

the craft, there was still going to be

10:29

jobs that I wasn't going to get. And

10:31

what really bugged me about that was

10:34

there'd be girls in auditions or classes

10:36

working half as hard as I was

10:38

working, in and out of the studio. And

10:42

something that struck me about running was, if

10:45

I bust my ass, I don't know if I'm allowed to

10:47

say that on, can I say ass on the podcast? Okay.

10:52

I can directly get results from that and no one

10:54

can take that from you when you go race. So

10:56

like as hard as you want to work, you can

10:59

go get those results. And that was the difference between

11:01

that and dance. So dance, I

11:03

found my groove and I found jobs that were

11:05

in companies that were great for me that were perfect

11:07

for the way that I wanted to perform

11:09

and dance and like honestly find endurance that

11:12

way. But my favorite part of

11:14

any of that, not even performing was just

11:16

rehearsing. Like I love working really

11:18

hard for a lot of hours. And

11:20

so ultra, just like once I started getting into running

11:22

it, like it just was like, wow,

11:25

this is the part I liked most about dancing and

11:27

no one has to audition me to figure out if

11:29

I even get to go to the start line. And

11:31

I love that. It's so funny

11:33

that you say that because that was

11:36

exactly my mind space as well when

11:38

I really started getting into

11:40

running because I was

11:42

a basketball player before I was a

11:44

runner. And you know, I

11:48

sort of stopped growing in high school, you know, like

11:50

I'm five foot seven. I was never going to

11:52

be on the basketball team. And

11:55

I also just didn't like the fact that

11:57

so much was out of your control as

11:59

a team athlete, maybe

12:01

coach didn't put you in, maybe someone didn't pass

12:03

you the ball, or maybe someone

12:05

passed you the ball when they should have passed

12:07

it to someone else. And so many things were

12:10

just up to other people. And I really loved

12:12

the fact that with running, it was

12:14

like, you're in charge, you put in the

12:16

work, and you get the results. And

12:18

just like your experience, I really fell

12:21

in love with that. And even though I

12:23

just didn't like running at all when

12:25

I first started, I gradually, maybe

12:28

not so gradually, you know, over maybe a

12:30

month or two, just completely fell in

12:32

love with it because of that, you know,

12:34

effort in one side and results

12:36

out the other side. Totally. I

12:38

absolutely love that. Let's

12:41

talk a little bit more about strength

12:43

training and ultra running, because this is sort of

12:46

like ballet and ultra

12:48

running or CrossFit and ultra running, you

12:50

know, these things are like oil and water

12:53

to a lot of runners. Oh, yeah. And

12:55

I think that there's

12:57

this common idea that ultra runners spend

13:00

so much time running that they don't

13:02

have time for strength training, or they

13:04

just don't need to be that strong

13:06

to run ultra marathons. But

13:09

when you're working with an ultra marathoner who's

13:11

gearing up for some type of

13:13

ultra, do you like to see strength

13:15

training in their program? I really

13:17

do from for so many

13:19

reasons. But I, I think that

13:22

strength training is that underlying

13:24

superpower that you're going to

13:26

pull from at any or

13:29

many, many points throughout the race. And you

13:31

might not see it in

13:33

real time, but it's happening. And

13:35

it's this layer of defense against

13:37

injury against breakdown. Honestly,

13:40

against poor form that happens for a lot

13:42

of people, you know, later on in the

13:44

race. But it's interesting what you said

13:46

a few minutes ago about when you

13:49

see like the top ultra runners, the

13:51

speed goats, the tiny, tiny, you know,

13:53

they're flying through the mountains. That's all

13:55

they practice. I think

13:57

there is such a sweet spot there of being

14:00

the absolute talk of your game, knowing

14:02

exactly your body, knowing what to do before

14:04

you break down and everything. What I love

14:06

about strength training is for the commoner, someone

14:09

like I'm working with or you know, somebody who's just trying

14:11

to do this for a personal goal. Strength

14:13

training gives you that toolbox that you're

14:16

going to have in that underlying, like

14:19

true makeup for

14:21

when your mind twists. So I always kind of

14:23

see it as this dance between 50

14:26

50 mind and body when one's breaking down, the

14:28

other has to pull up the slack. And I

14:30

think the biggest thing strength does is come

14:33

in when you least expect it. Some of my

14:35

strongest moments in a long race have literally happened

14:37

in the last quarter of that race, which is

14:39

so weird. And I attribute that to strength.

14:41

Yeah, I gotta say that's never happened to

14:44

me. I've never felt my strongest in the

14:46

last quarter of a race. But

14:49

but I also have to admit that

14:51

when I was racing at my best,

14:54

I wasn't really doing too much strength training.

14:56

And I love how you described

14:58

it as a layer of defense. You know,

15:00

I've used this analogy that strength training is

15:03

almost like wearing a suit of armor, it protects

15:05

you from some of the

15:07

impact and forces of running. And

15:10

it can be this really wonderful training

15:12

strategy to help you not

15:14

just stay healthy, but also like you

15:16

said, find strength later on, especially in

15:18

a very long race, just like an

15:20

ultra marathon, like we're talking about. So,

15:24

you know, what are we trying to gain from strength

15:26

training as an ultra runner? I assume it's not the

15:28

same list of benefits that say, a middle

15:30

distance track runner might be looking for who's

15:33

getting ready for the mile, you know, we're

15:35

looking for something else, right? Yeah,

15:37

and it's interesting, because even I would say,

15:39

like, you know, in the way you've succeeded

15:41

in the marathon, and even

15:43

in the half and pushing, pushing through to the

15:45

end, so that truly, you can say nothing was

15:47

left on the table. I almost

15:50

feel it and this is weird because some the

15:52

top ultra runners are going to look at their

15:54

races the same way you would in a marathon.

15:56

But like for me, I want

15:59

to know that I am still holding on strong

16:01

at the end. That's more what I'm

16:03

focused on versus pushing everything out and

16:05

using every bit of my power so

16:08

that the gas takes emptying as I go. So it's

16:10

completely depleted by the end, but I've also made it

16:13

as fast as I wanted to make it where

16:15

I see it kind of come in with the ultra

16:17

is like. It's

16:20

almost just, you don't know what's going to come up

16:22

and you want to be this engine that can keep

16:24

chugging along. And I think strength

16:26

support really strength

16:29

and form can go hand in hand. Cause I also like

16:31

to use strength as a way to look under the hood.

16:33

What's going on? What am I doing

16:35

wrong? You know, things that are not

16:38

obvious at the time and maybe they don't come up

16:40

quite in the run, but you realize habitual things maybe

16:42

in the strength work as well. So you can find

16:44

those early before they're a big problem. So

16:46

strength training can almost be this diagnostic

16:48

tool is what you're saying. Like it

16:50

can inform you on weaknesses,

16:54

imbalances, poor movement patterns. Because

16:56

if you're running ultras, all

16:59

of those things are going to be exacerbated

17:01

and even magnified later in the race. Oh

17:03

yeah. So, you know, you don't have to

17:05

go run 90 miles to

17:07

figure out your weaknesses. Maybe you can get in

17:09

the gym and do it in a safer way

17:12

and find out, you know, what happens when I'm

17:14

really tired? Uh, if, if I

17:16

put, you know, myself under

17:18

load, where, where am I going

17:20

to start to fail because then that tells you

17:22

where you should focus on, right? Yeah.

17:25

And that same token, like using the magnifying

17:27

glass single leg work is so important for

17:29

this, obviously we know, uh, what

17:32

both legs do together is not what each individual leg,

17:34

if we were just looking at that as doing, and

17:36

when we really start to see things break down. And

17:38

I would say a good way to look at that

17:40

is take your shoes off in the gym. Single

17:44

leg squats, single leg deadlifts, things like that,

17:46

even without load yet, no weight, and

17:48

you see what your foot wants to do, what your

17:51

ankle wants to do. You start to see why you

17:53

might be collapsing in your knee or sitting in your

17:55

hip and over time, thousands and

17:57

thousands of steps, there's no escaping

17:59

what that. left leg is doing or that left foot

18:01

is doing. And so the sooner

18:03

you find that out and get that plan of

18:05

attack, the better off you're going to be, you

18:08

know, over time, obviously, you keep multiplying that, but

18:10

you'll be seeing what's going

18:12

on. Same thing, you add weight to a back

18:14

squat, you add weight to a deadlift, can you

18:16

hold up against that weight? And if you can't,

18:18

why what is breaking down? Yeah, so

18:20

not only is it a diagnostic tool, but

18:22

it can really help you identify those areas

18:24

that are going to start being

18:27

your problem areas later in a

18:29

race. And then once you

18:31

know what those are, you can start focusing on them

18:33

a little more, and then you just become much

18:36

more durable later on in a

18:38

marathon. So when

18:40

you think about strength training for ultra runners,

18:42

it is part injury

18:44

prevention, you want to stay healthy during

18:47

the race when you're under high fatigue

18:49

levels. Part of it is

18:51

maintaining good form, right? Like you want

18:53

to, you know, not have your

18:56

form completely fall apart in the late stages of

18:58

an ultra when you're super tired. You know, I'll

19:00

admit that's my my kryptonite right there.

19:02

That's what always happens to me. I feel

19:05

like I have this engine that just wants

19:07

to go go go go go, but I

19:09

just fall apart because, you know, I'm not

19:11

strong enough for hours and hours of running

19:13

at the paces that I've tried to do. Are

19:17

we looking for any performance benefits as well?

19:19

And I know, of course, that if

19:22

you stay healthy, and your form

19:24

doesn't fall apart, your performance is

19:26

going to be better. But are

19:28

there more direct performance benefits of

19:30

strength training for ultra runners? Absolutely.

19:33

I think from and I get a lot of

19:35

questions for people about like heart rate specific, how

19:37

much should we focus on this? But

19:40

what is it an indicator of in terms of

19:42

us in a long race? Can that really even

19:44

be a factor when we're

19:46

15 hours in depends on

19:48

what we've eaten, how's the heat, all those things are

19:50

factors at that point. But what I would say is,

19:52

this is where the CrossFit kind of came in for

19:54

me. I found that I could

19:56

work on my strength, form

19:59

and endurance from

20:02

a different aerobic standpoint than just my

20:04

steady state long distance running. And

20:06

I felt like that was my superpower there

20:08

in the way of I'm

20:10

going to move really hard for 10 minutes

20:13

and try to keep good form through squats, lunges,

20:15

burpees, whatever it is I'm doing and

20:17

not break down and miss. And

20:19

I felt like I got a lot of fitness from

20:22

my strength work, even the slow days too, I

20:25

noticed my heart rate dropping for

20:27

my longer runs and feeling just

20:30

a lot more fit for longer.

20:33

And I attribute it to that. I also think

20:35

the muscle, as long as it's not so much

20:37

you're really building up to weigh yourself down, I

20:39

feel like it can be that enhancer to knowing

20:42

what to expect on any run so it's not

20:44

so up and down, depending on climate, etc. I

20:46

felt like it stabilized my performance in

20:48

ways. Yeah, and I think some

20:50

of the higher intensity lifting can be really

20:52

helpful to bridge the gap. So

20:55

if you're not able to do hard

20:57

workouts, or if you're not able to, you

21:00

know, run 100 miles a week in

21:02

training, some of these other

21:04

training strategies might be really helpful,

21:07

like some heavier weightlifting or more

21:09

intense weightlifting, you know, we could

21:11

get into cross training, although that's sort of a separate discussion.

21:15

All these things can sort of bridge the

21:17

gap between the training that you think

21:19

might be ideal or perfect, and

21:22

then the training they're actually able to do, you know,

21:24

on a daily and weekly basis. Absolutely.

21:26

And I think we would love it if

21:29

we were all training like professional runners, and we had

21:31

one job and it was to just work

21:33

out all day. But it's sadly

21:35

not the reality for a lot of the

21:37

people that watch our stuff or, you know,

21:39

that we work with, or you know, even

21:41

you know, the top runners like can't necessarily

21:44

make money enough to not have

21:46

another job, right. And so when you factor

21:48

all that in, you start thinking what's the

21:50

most bang for my buck, that's

21:52

not that's sustainable over several months, you know, it

21:54

doesn't feel like I'm going up and down and

21:56

feeling good or feeling bad, and it really has

21:58

to be timed out. perfectly around

22:00

my race. You're just making me

22:02

think back to me dreaming

22:04

about the schedule of an elite runner,

22:07

how I would love to

22:09

train twice a day separated by a nap. A

22:11

nap, I know. It's literally the

22:13

dream. And then just everything is

22:15

conducive to, you know, it's like the one goal and

22:17

everyone's on the team for the one goal. So

22:20

nice. If only. But

22:23

Holly, if someone is not used to

22:25

strength training, but they are running ultras

22:27

or they're gearing up for their first

22:29

ultra marathon, how would you

22:31

advise someone to get started? Is there a

22:34

good introductory way of thinking about

22:36

strength training for a beginner who

22:40

is training for an ultra? Yeah, I

22:42

think the first thing I would have someone

22:44

do is I'll start

22:46

with pipe dream. You find a

22:48

trainer that knows

22:50

runners that knows running, even if you did

22:52

one session with that person, even if it

22:54

was online, but something where you got to

22:58

get some input from someone by just

23:00

looking at you, I would strongly suggest

23:02

in person or zoom so they can

23:04

see basic mechanics. So you

23:06

first want to uncover where your weak

23:08

spots are and not just from an actual, like literally

23:11

weak spot, but where are your tight areas? Where

23:13

do you tend to land when you walk? How

23:15

do you sit? What do you spend your

23:17

time doing mostly when you're not running and start

23:20

from there because we'll have less problems

23:22

getting into strength if we start with

23:24

no weight, body weight only, but

23:26

we start to, I call it like activating

23:28

or waking up certain areas. So

23:31

a lot of times like I had a horrible

23:33

hip injury. Actually was the

23:35

day I signed up for my first hundred. I

23:39

literally signed up that morning and that afternoon

23:41

I stood up off the couch, had a

23:43

sharp pain and it was months of getting

23:46

that under control. And I

23:48

didn't realize until PT then that I

23:50

had a really, really weak glute media.

23:53

Like it basically was non-existent and

23:56

I couldn't believe that because I had really strong quads,

23:58

generally strong overall. Had no idea

24:00

until that happened. So. If someone

24:02

spurs getting into strength training I would say

24:05

get someone who knows what they're looking at

24:07

to start to figure out your holes. And.

24:09

As he started to get those working you can do

24:12

you know, higher wrap counts, lower weight and then start

24:14

to add load from there. I think

24:16

this idea just hiring a trainer or

24:18

strength coach for just one, maybe two

24:21

sessions is is a really, really good

24:23

idea. It's sort of like hiring a

24:25

running coach for just a couple months

24:27

leading up to a goalless yeah. you

24:30

know it might not be like the

24:32

perfect situation for a long term progress

24:34

in developments, but at the same time,

24:37

it's so much better than nothing. And.

24:40

With. Strength training in particular. And.

24:42

Were form is really important,

24:44

especially start adding weight. East

24:46

are doing more complex types

24:48

of of weightlifting exercises, just

24:50

having an idea of your

24:53

personal movement patterns. What you

24:55

do well in what you

24:57

don't do well I think

24:59

is extraordinarily valuable and. You.

25:01

Know if you think about it just in terms of.

25:03

You. Know ah, a one time investment in

25:06

your knowledge of yourself as an athlete.

25:08

You know that's going to set you

25:10

up for success in the long term.

25:12

It's also probably gonna save your lot

25:14

of heartache. Because. You.

25:16

Might. You. Know skip one

25:18

major injury that you could have gotten

25:20

because now you know a little bit

25:23

more or your result and all your

25:25

future races is gonna be a little

25:27

bit better because you remember a couple

25:29

lessons from working with that trainer where

25:31

are running coach so I think just

25:33

that is fantastic. I. Think to it's

25:35

it. With. Something individualized like that

25:37

near the first thing you think

25:39

outside of cel extensive. Like.

25:42

I thought running assessment see it now or

25:44

pay for this is a little. it's in

25:46

the whole thing but like you to said

25:48

you're you're paying for like almost insurance or.

25:51

Some. Sort of starting information that will help

25:53

you one sleep easier as something dead come

25:55

up. How many people do we know that

25:57

start running? their knee hurts and they as.

26:00

They think they broke their neat. They think they broke

26:02

something that you know it's just a quick as. Draw

26:05

that conclusion without knowing the other information and

26:07

so when you have somebody who knows the

26:09

tie between the strengthen, the running, they can

26:11

tell you you're going to be doing this.

26:14

You. Know with or without me. but this is

26:16

how it's going to pay off. In.

26:18

Your race or in your next run and

26:20

you'll see that right away. And on that

26:22

are they letter you can say with an

26:24

were. like you said, lead up to the

26:26

race with them. Great if you can't, it

26:28

at least set you on the path of

26:31

understanding. You're not just the average going into

26:33

the gym, doing some bicep curls and leaving.

26:35

You know there has. To be a purpose behind what

26:37

you're doing. If you're going to send the time. Job

26:39

John and Monsieur only trying to look good on

26:41

the beach. You probably just wanna have a more

26:43

robust work out. The here are some money. That

26:45

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26:49

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28:25

All right, so if someone isn't

28:27

brand new to strength training, you know, they have

28:29

a little bit of background. Maybe

28:31

they've just been doing a lot of body

28:33

weight exercises. And so, you know, they're familiar

28:35

with a lot of movements. How

28:38

would you advise someone to structure their strength

28:40

training on a weekly basis? You know, are

28:42

we doing a strength workout

28:44

every day? Is it harder workout some

28:46

days than other days just like our

28:49

running? How do you think about the

28:51

structure? If you are capable

28:53

of fitting in two sessions a week,

28:55

I think both should be really quality

28:58

sessions where you are forcing

29:01

yourself to look at certain weaknesses.

29:04

I think one of those days should be heavier

29:06

in volume, lower rep

29:08

counts, higher weights, being

29:10

really, really focused on what your body

29:12

does under that weight. Using

29:15

form is a good way to know if you're

29:17

hovering in the territory of too heavy. We don't

29:20

need to be doing anything crazy unless you want

29:22

to be building strength. And even

29:25

for a lot of guys, if you want to be

29:27

actually increasing your muscle amount, if you're

29:29

not trying to do that, you're just trying

29:31

to maintain good, strong running, I would say

29:33

use form as your guide. If you break down

29:36

at the bottom of the back squat, you

29:38

can't even engage your core, you're rounded forward.

29:40

It's too heavy. But

29:42

working really heavy on one of those days, you

29:44

know, relative to what you can do. On the

29:46

other day, I would say just technical. We haven't

29:48

really talked about this yet. But in

29:51

ultras, you want to be nimble on

29:53

your downhills, and you want to be strong

29:55

on your uphills. So the best

29:57

way to do that is to make

29:59

You have really strong, secure glutes, hamstrings,

30:02

quads. Those are good to go, supporting

30:04

your knees, supporting your ankles. And

30:07

then you want to be doing some stuff for

30:09

your agility, knowing how to pick up your feet

30:11

quick over technical terrain. If that's a lot of

30:13

ultras, you're going to be going all

30:16

over the place, tree roots, things, you're going to be tired,

30:18

you're not going to be thinking straight. That

30:20

strength that you can build

30:22

when you're already tired in higher

30:24

rep counts, more circuit style, but

30:26

single leg jumping, agility, et cetera,

30:29

prepares you for how you're going to respond

30:31

when you're about to trip over the tree

30:33

limb, at mile 70. So

30:36

I'll combo those two. I

30:39

have these visions of you doing

30:41

ballet down a technical trail right

30:43

now, just sort of nimbly

30:47

prancing very agilely down the trail. I'm

30:50

sure that came in handy. I definitely did. I

30:52

like to think that that's what it looks like and

30:54

I know that it doesn't. The funny thing is when

30:56

I lived in San Francisco and I would go on

30:58

these group trail runs with some really

31:00

amazing runners, they were so

31:02

fast that I always describe it as

31:04

their feet never hit the ground. They

31:07

were genuinely gliding. I mean, they were

31:10

so quick to pick it up like that you didn't

31:12

have enough time to land and anything to happen. You

31:14

were onto the next step. I think those

31:17

people are really, really skilled. You have to work

31:19

on that, but I think in the gym can

31:21

be a place you do that and

31:23

slow it down and just understand why that person

31:25

can balance and why you can't using

31:28

BOSU balls, using foam pads. Like I

31:30

said, barefoot's always good. Keep a sock

31:32

on for respect for everybody else, but

31:34

just being able to know

31:37

what your feet are doing. It's not just

31:39

about the shoe. Yeah, and that's a really

31:41

good point. We're not just hurling

31:43

heavy barbells around in the gym.

31:45

We're actually working on some

31:47

very specific skills that are going to help

31:50

us in the race itself. So

31:52

it sounds like you're a big fan of heavy

31:55

lifts sometimes. You're

31:58

also a fan of single. leg

32:00

exercises, you mentioned a single leg

32:02

squat, a single leg deadlift. I

32:05

think particularly for trail runners and

32:07

ultra runners, it's really important to do

32:10

single leg work just because like you

32:12

said, you're gonna have to navigate some

32:14

technical terrain. It's really important

32:16

to have the balance and single leg strength to

32:19

be able to do that. Do

32:22

you advise any sort of drills

32:24

or plyometrics to work on that kind

32:27

of quickness as well? How would that

32:29

look? Yeah, totally. I think the

32:32

one commonality I would see this with like

32:34

a more mid distance runner, someone in track,

32:37

you wanna be powerful and

32:39

not for the same reasons that you

32:41

would wanna be powerful in speed. You

32:43

wanna be powerful from the fact that

32:46

that is in your tank. Like you

32:48

have the ability to be explosive. You're

32:50

not necessarily gonna execute on that, but

32:52

you're gonna have that

32:55

muscle, that defense that we've talked about there

32:57

as a source, as

32:59

a place to pull from. So

33:01

I love box jumps, just

33:03

nice quality, one

33:06

level to another level jumping up, nothing

33:08

crazy, nothing too high. I love anything

33:10

on the ladder, like agility ladders. It's

33:12

kind of crazy how people can feel super,

33:14

super out of touch with their bodies when they do

33:17

things like that. But I think you should be out

33:19

of your comfort zone a little bit because again, the

33:21

goal is you do all this crazy stuff in the

33:23

gym, but you go back out there on your normal

33:25

run. It should feel so much simpler

33:27

to you after that. It should feel so much more

33:30

steady to you after that smoother. So

33:32

I love an agility ladder and the box

33:34

jumps. And then honestly, I do a lot of skipping

33:37

work with a lot of my clients. So

33:39

we'll do lunge to high skip, even

33:42

some bounding drills, even

33:44

some strides, things that are just getting them

33:48

in high power situations, be

33:50

explosive, and then getting those benefits

33:52

still when you go out there for the long time,

33:54

but you might not be seeing them in the actual

33:56

action. You know, this reminds me

33:59

of when I trained. for the steeple chase. So

34:01

I was a steeple chaser a long time ago.

34:03

Yeah. And I spent a

34:05

season doing all kinds of

34:07

different drills and hip mobility

34:09

work, workouts over hurdles, you

34:11

know, practicing the water jump, all the things

34:14

that steeple chasers have to practice and was

34:16

all new to me. And

34:18

I found that it made me feel

34:20

so much better on

34:23

easy runs and even in the other

34:25

races that weren't the steeple

34:27

chase. So it was a season where

34:29

I also set a PR in the

34:31

1500 and the 5k. And I just

34:33

felt more athletic. And I

34:36

think this idea of drawing from

34:38

a reserve, a reserve of endurance,

34:40

a reserve of strength, but also

34:42

a reserve of movement

34:44

ability, you know, just becoming a

34:46

better athlete in general is going

34:48

to help you in these situations

34:50

where fatigue is high, you still

34:52

have to navigate some technical terrain,

34:55

you might have been on your feet for

34:57

six, seven, eight hours. And so, you know,

34:59

this idea of doing a lot of things

35:01

that may not be

35:03

directly specific to the event that

35:05

you're training for, but nevertheless, are

35:07

working on these physical skills that

35:10

are going to help you regardless.

35:12

Absolutely. I think it's the same reason

35:14

that somebody might complain, you know, someone

35:16

who I have doing a flat half

35:18

marathon complains that I have them doing

35:20

hill work. And I explained

35:23

for so many reasons, this hill work is

35:25

going to make your flat running faster and

35:27

stronger overall. Yeah, there's nothing better

35:29

than feeling athletic. I think you see this

35:31

a lot, actually, speaking of

35:33

basketball, you know, that's what you wanted to

35:35

originally do. I'm a huge

35:38

NBA fan, randomly, big

35:40

Warriors basketball fan. And I

35:42

think one of the coolest things is watching

35:44

good players who either get injured

35:46

or have a setback with a contract or

35:48

something and end up in a position they

35:50

weren't planning on being, you see them come

35:52

back and they're 10 times better

35:54

than they ever were if they use that opportunity

35:57

just to expand what they know about the game,

35:59

but also like what they had to do

36:01

physically in the game. And you don't see

36:03

that if you're on a linear

36:05

trajectory the whole time, just planning on, I do

36:08

this activity, so I've trained for this activity. And you

36:10

just leave it at that. I think we're all a

36:13

lot better when we're mixing it up, which

36:15

is like, I think the whole concept

36:17

of like your business and everything, you know, strength

36:19

and running together, like weren't all,

36:21

that's not popular or was not popular as a,

36:23

as a combo. It was often thought, you know,

36:26

muscle is going to slow you down. It's going

36:28

to make you less performative, you

36:30

know, at a higher speed. And,

36:33

you know, we find, I think it

36:35

actually makes you longer lasting and stronger

36:37

and less injury prone, obviously at, at

36:40

all sorts of distances and speeds. So

36:42

you see that a lot with just mixing up your workouts.

36:45

That's a good analogy with the basketball players

36:47

because it's true. I mean, you would

36:49

never imagine a basketball player only

36:52

playing basketball games to

36:54

prepare for a basketball game,

36:56

but we expect ultra runners to only go

36:59

on a lot of long runs to

37:01

prepare for an ultra marathon, which is just

37:03

one long run. And,

37:05

you know, this idea of becoming a better athlete

37:08

is, is just, I think,

37:10

so fundamental to getting the most out of

37:12

yourself as an athlete

37:14

and becoming, you know, the, the fastest,

37:17

more injury resilient runner that

37:20

you can be. Now,

37:22

now Holly, I'm sure that a lot of folks are listening to

37:24

us and they're like, all right, single like

37:26

squats and box jumps and agility work

37:28

and, and all this stuff. And they're

37:30

like, I just might be really tired

37:32

from all of my ultra running. So

37:35

can you speak to the, the

37:37

very real concern that because

37:39

of the volume, the long

37:41

run, maybe the workout during the week,

37:44

an ultra runner just might not have the energy for

37:47

all this stuff. Like, how do you balance that? This

37:49

is a hard one. I

37:51

had a girl this morning, you know, one of my

37:54

clients, and she's training for a hundred and she is

37:56

totally overwhelmed. She like from the standpoint of what does

37:58

my schedule look like? So the

38:00

thing you're going to have to do if you

38:02

want to play the long game here and say

38:04

you're eight months out from your race is you

38:06

have to be more strategic than the average runner.

38:09

You have to really know what you're getting out of each week.

38:12

I would say block in your

38:14

headspace things into months, three months at a time,

38:16

one month at a time, and then the

38:18

current week you're on. Just loosely

38:20

with your goals, just knowing what page you're

38:23

on and why it's serving you that particular

38:25

week. I really

38:27

like back-to-back days where

38:29

you're doing things when you're already tired. I think

38:31

that's the best prep you can have for an ultra.

38:34

That being said, if I'm months

38:37

out from my race and I do a double

38:39

day, really heavy strength session, maybe even a short

38:41

run right after, and then I'm going to go

38:43

put my long run the day after that, I'm

38:46

going to recover really hard the following

38:48

two days. Maybe a little core work

38:50

to supplement, some stretching, maybe a massage

38:52

or mobility work, whatever, and then I'll

38:54

get back to it. I

38:57

think we have to lose the concept of doing

38:59

something every day or we're falling behind. I think

39:01

that's not going to be your friend in that

39:03

case. We

39:06

don't really get to throw fluff up miles

39:08

or whatever, fill in miles just for the

39:10

sake of it. I really do think

39:12

you need to have a purpose for everything you're going to do. As

39:15

it breaks down throughout the week, I always say

39:17

you really need one recovery day if you're

39:20

going to do this for the long haul. For

39:22

anything that's coming up or tweaks or any pains,

39:24

you need to have time for that to get

39:26

ahead of it. Then,

39:29

a quality three

39:31

to four runs, really strong

39:33

runs with purpose, whether they're shorter for

39:35

speed or you're doing hill work or

39:38

intervals, obviously the long run, etc. Prioritizing

39:43

what type of strength you want to

39:45

be doing, it gets hairy with the

39:47

classes, the class workouts and things as

39:49

fill-ins because it gets easy to

39:51

just show up. It's easier to show up for the

39:53

class and be done with it, but you

39:55

have to be selective. On this

39:57

note, if you're in any sort of a group workout class, you can do it.

40:00

and you're training for something specific, don't

40:02

be afraid to tell

40:04

the coach or don't tell the coach, make modifications

40:07

as you need for your particular goal. I think

40:09

people are scared to do that, but

40:11

you're paying, that's your gym to go to, and obviously

40:13

you wanna be respectful, but you wanna get what you

40:15

need out of it. That's a really good

40:17

point, because I think a lot of runners fall

40:20

into some traps with strength training when

40:23

they just adhere to some classes that

40:25

they're going to, because a lot

40:27

of those classes, some of

40:29

them include intervals on a treadmill,

40:31

some of them include high intensity

40:33

interval training using a bicycle, and

40:36

there's just a lot of things that are

40:38

often in these classes that an ultra runner

40:40

just might not need when it comes

40:42

to their strength training. So

40:44

I think a good follow up question might be, when

40:47

is it okay to cut

40:49

a strength session short? Are there any

40:51

times when you would abandon

40:55

something or not do a strength

40:57

workout or cut it short, otherwise,

40:59

sort of put it in the basket of

41:03

this is a second tier thing I'm doing,

41:05

and I'm gonna focus more on my running.

41:07

Yeah, totally. I would

41:10

say a good indicator of when I would start

41:12

dialing that down would be your hunger.

41:15

So hormone imbalances and

41:17

things where you start to get,

41:20

your system is starting to feel fatigue to the

41:22

point where you don't think you can catch up

41:24

to it. We've all had those experiences

41:26

where you just, you can't eat enough, you

41:28

can't sleep enough, you're really starting to break

41:30

down from that standpoint. That's usually where

41:32

I start to come out of the gym and

41:34

focus more on the run. And

41:37

I know I'll come back to that, but if

41:39

I'm going in the gym and I can't even

41:41

do anything of quality, whether that be like the

41:43

right amount of weight I wanna be lifting, or

41:45

even feeling like I can have good form by

41:47

the fifth lap of something or whatever, I'm not

41:49

gonna do it. I'd rather just

41:51

go focus on a solid run, steady heart

41:54

rate, depending on the type of

41:56

run I'm gonna be doing. But I always

41:58

use internally and my, my... hunger

42:01

as a guide and sleep. I feel like you

42:04

might be overdoing it to some extent. And

42:34

you're not in the right space

42:36

if you're carrying a ton of fatigue

42:38

or soreness into that workout. If

42:41

you haven't slept well for a couple

42:43

days, I think being

42:45

under fueled is a really good

42:47

thing to be aware of because if

42:50

you're lifting, you're probably running either

42:52

before or after. It's probably some

42:55

type of double session or just

42:57

included in one long session. And

43:00

if you're going to do that, fine. But

43:02

we've got to make sure you're well fueled

43:04

or else the potential risk

43:06

for injury or just not really getting much

43:08

out of the session is really high. I

43:11

think that's a good way of putting it. Are

43:13

you getting anything out of the session? And if you're

43:15

not in a place originally to get anything out of

43:17

the session, why do it in the first place and

43:20

learn the hard way? I would also say a lot

43:22

of stupid injuries

43:24

happen in those sessions where you went

43:26

anyway and you even see in your

43:28

headspace, if I'm exhausted, I'm like, at

43:34

least I got to the gym. I'm definitely not warming

43:36

up or cooling down because I'm proud that I even

43:38

got to the gym at all. So now I'm giving

43:40

myself half the ability I'd have

43:42

just because I was almost feeling sorry for

43:45

myself. It's this weird thing. I

43:47

think you're so right. Go do it if you're going

43:49

to do it. Don't do it if you're not. But

43:52

this in between kind of thing and

43:54

maybe just to add extra fatigue with

43:56

no real benefit is kind of pointless.

43:58

You could say this about. extra

44:00

recovery time as well, you know, whether you

44:02

were treating the strength for running or just ditching

44:05

that day all together, you set

44:08

yourself up for a much better long-term result. Yeah,

44:10

that's definitely true and I think

44:12

too, like, if

44:14

you're not going to be

44:17

in a place where you can

44:19

feel good, you can execute it

44:21

well, you can either reach

44:23

or get close to your goals for the

44:25

session, then it might not be

44:27

a good idea to do. It's sort of like if

44:29

you wake up on a fast workout day and you

44:32

only got three hours of sleep, you're still

44:34

sore from the day before, you ran out

44:36

of coffee so you don't even have any

44:38

caffeine to get you through that workout and

44:41

it's like raining outside and you

44:43

left your shoes with better traction

44:46

and, you know, somewhere else, it's

44:48

like, oh my god, you're really stacking the

44:50

deck against you and the possibility

44:52

that something goes wrong is just going to be

44:54

really high and I like to just

44:57

dial back the intensity in those situations. So if

44:59

you have a, you know, you did a run

45:01

in the morning, you're going to the gym after

45:04

work, it's supposed to be your heavy lifting day

45:06

and you just don't have it, I like

45:09

to see a runner, okay, let's just do

45:11

some easy body weight strength training, you know,

45:13

maybe it's just some mobility work, let's get

45:15

your body moving but let's not have any

45:17

high performance demands when we're feeling like this.

45:20

And on that same note, if

45:22

that goes that way and you do the lighter

45:24

load to be smart in that day, don't

45:28

spend the whole next day agonizing over the fact

45:30

that you did that and then overcompensating on your

45:32

next workout. I think we see that so much

45:34

because people, the reason we all

45:36

are so dedicated is because we're so dedicated, it's

45:38

this chicken and egg cycle so you're

45:40

so hard on yourself in a good way but you

45:43

don't want it to be a detriment. So I always

45:45

say like stay present on the day you're on, you

45:47

made the decision, you made that choice to do that,

45:49

move forward with it and you

45:52

don't want to be, it's

45:54

funny with ultras because I a lot of times

45:56

I'm like well if I go do this really

45:58

hard thing anyway even though I'm exhausted That's

46:00

a really good training tool for my brain for

46:03

the middle, whatever. And that might be

46:05

true, but that can't be a regular

46:07

part of your weekly routine. I think I don't

46:10

know that you'll make it to the start line that way if

46:12

you're just constantly so, so tired. Yeah. I

46:15

mean, you're probably going to get hurt or

46:17

you're flirting with overtraining syndrome. It's

46:19

just not a fun place to be. And it's

46:21

not also the environment in which all

46:23

those positive adaptations can occur. So you

46:25

might just be working hard for the

46:28

sake of working hard. Now,

46:30

Holly, I'm curious like how you

46:32

think about progression with strength training

46:34

during an ultra marathon season. You

46:37

know, like let's say a runner is training for 20

46:40

weeks for their ultra. How

46:42

should strength training generally progress from the beginning

46:44

of that cycle to the end? I assume

46:46

you're not going to do exactly the same

46:48

thing for all 20 weeks, right? Right.

46:52

So a lot of this is going to have to

46:54

do with where we start with, I kind of mentioned

46:56

those weak spots, kind of where we find your target

46:58

areas to be. I would

47:00

say in the middle kind of peak, you

47:03

know, right in the middle of your training,

47:05

your two, three months in, you want to

47:07

feel like you can consistently depend on your

47:09

body to go resist against certain weights, you

47:11

know, towards your heaviest, your 80%, etc. Slowly

47:16

starting to come down. So it's kind of this like up

47:18

to the mountain in the middle, kind of coming down from

47:20

there. And then I always know

47:22

in those last two months before your race, we're

47:24

going to be doing some level of

47:26

problem solving. So it's not going to

47:28

be necessarily your hurt or you're dealing

47:31

with pain, but you are dealing with

47:33

fatigue and burnout in ways. So

47:35

we're kind of matching where we're at there too.

47:37

So I would say it starts pretty general. You

47:40

know, you find workouts you like, you adapt and

47:42

build weights, you know, from there, but not to

47:44

the extent that you just want to keep seeing

47:46

the number go higher, just that you feel your

47:48

body getting stronger and responding while in your runs.

47:51

Ultimately, we do this for the run. So we want to

47:53

make sure that we're seeing that performance there. And

47:56

then tweaking our stuff to

47:58

make sure we're getting what we need. as time

48:01

goes on. But it's

48:03

easy to get lost as I said you just have to

48:05

make sure you're staying on top of why you're getting there

48:07

in the first place what you're doing the strength for. Now

48:10

if you feel like things are slowing majorly

48:12

down in the second half of your training,

48:16

careful just how much you're lifting, how

48:18

frequently the higher reps you're doing even

48:20

at medium weight, you can

48:22

start to see some muscle growth and build in

48:25

maybe a way that's making your runs not feel

48:27

good. Like you might be weighing yourself down a

48:29

bit so it's kind of flirting with that line

48:31

there. Yeah I think it's a good

48:33

point too to remember that when

48:35

you are in peak training, your

48:38

running is the most important thing. So

48:40

any strength training really should be in

48:42

service of your running. And

48:44

a big issue that I often

48:47

see with clients is that they

48:49

really do like to see the

48:51

number of how much they're lifting

48:54

increase maybe not week after week but

48:56

you know a couple times a month maybe two or

48:58

three times a month they add a little bit of

49:00

weight. And I tend

49:02

to think that's the last thing we really

49:04

want in the weight room as ultra runners.

49:07

Yes we want to be getting stronger but I

49:10

like to think of all this lifting weights

49:12

and strength training that we're doing as not

49:14

just an exercise and getting stronger but also

49:17

in movement practice. And

49:19

so you know in

49:21

the last two months of your ultra

49:23

season, even if you're not increasing the

49:25

weight at all, you're maintaining strength, you're

49:28

lifting the same weight while your running

49:30

is getting stronger. So you're doing it

49:33

in the context of more

49:36

physical fatigue and you know there's just more

49:38

demands on your body. So in a way

49:40

you're actually you know the workouts more impressive.

49:43

You know if you do a

49:45

strength training workout and you're not running at

49:47

all, I'm more impressed if you

49:49

do that same strength training workout but you're

49:51

running 50 miles a week with like you

49:53

know this this super long run and a

49:55

workout and all these other things in your

49:57

training. So I think the context is important.

50:00

And and I just wanted to

50:02

be clear that it's totally fine if you

50:04

don't increase in weight Especially you know at

50:06

the end of your season when your train

50:08

you're running is probably at its peak I

50:11

couldn't have said it better. It's it's exactly right like

50:13

I don't know why I want to use the word

50:16

cool But to me it's it's more cool that

50:18

you would come in and do you know

50:21

a solid amount of weight After

50:23

having done 25 or 30 miles

50:25

the day before but you came in and you moved

50:27

well under whatever weight that it was That

50:30

to me is like okay. This person's in

50:33

good shape. They're they're knowing their body really

50:35

really well Numbers

50:37

are so and this is why I've always

50:39

struggled with a bit of the numerics of

50:41

running You know can get super data driven

50:43

really quickly Don't make the strength

50:45

another piece of that like this is about the

50:47

running But the stronger you are and the more

50:50

the strength works for the running. That's your primary

50:52

focus You don't want to lose sight of that

50:54

especially at the end for just the sake of

50:56

the number going up But we're runners

50:58

Holly. We love to put numbers around

51:00

everything And I'm

51:03

sure half our listeners have Excel

51:05

spreadsheets of years of training metrics

51:08

And and and they're waking heart rate for

51:10

going back and told you know 2004

51:14

amazing and I always find myself and I'm like

51:16

I say I don't like numbers But I do

51:18

the same thing. I'm always checking the numbers and

51:20

stuff like that and I love it for reference

51:23

And it keeps us going honestly and in

51:25

ways That's what keeps you on track to

51:27

to feel like you're part of your your

51:29

goal. There's something to measure it by there's

51:33

just so many moving pieces and going back to the original

51:35

point which is like Doing

51:37

all this and having the volume and having months

51:40

of this to get through. How do you make

51:42

it enjoyable? How do you actually feel like this

51:44

is your sport? You are in control

51:46

of what you're doing You're not at the mercy of

51:48

any aches and pains You're gonna know what to do

51:50

and then like it needs to feel so big picture

51:52

and sustainable that when you get through this Race, you

51:54

don't want to feel like you hate it. You know,

51:56

you can't be like thank goodness. I'm done with it

51:58

forever You know you want to feel energized

52:00

by the success. Yeah

52:02

and if you're healthy, if you're you

52:05

kept it together

52:07

and didn't fall apart over the last

52:09

10-20 miles of the ultra, I think

52:11

you're just going to be in a

52:13

really better headspace to recover from the

52:15

race and then you're just

52:17

gonna be more excited to get back

52:20

into training and sign up for your

52:22

next race no matter what that might

52:24

be. I'm curious Holly, are there any

52:26

types of strength training that you would

52:28

advise runners to stay away from certain

52:31

types of classes or or certain

52:33

types of lifting that just might either not

52:36

really serve their goals or might

52:38

actually detract from their running? That's

52:40

a good question. I think

52:44

not specific movements what I would say

52:47

is it's a really hairy

52:49

territory to start shortening,

52:52

tightening, strengthening everything if you're

52:54

not gonna match that with

52:56

mobilizing. This is super

52:59

super important. I would say that

53:01

if you are not used to

53:03

squatting, deadlifting, balancing, that

53:06

kind of thing, even the core stuff, your

53:09

body's gonna respond in a way that it's

53:11

actually quite locked up and if you go

53:14

run on that body without having stretched or

53:16

actually like undone a little

53:18

bit of what you did in the gym, you're

53:20

gonna see that show up pretty quickly. So I

53:22

always use like ankles as a good example. We

53:24

put a lot of load down obviously

53:26

and stabilizing our lower leg when we're doing a lot

53:28

of the strength work and if I don't then go

53:30

stretch my ankles, sit off tension at the bottom of

53:32

a squat for a minute or two, do my

53:35

range of motion exercises, etc. I'm gonna take

53:37

all that tightness with me onto the run

53:39

and that can be slippery

53:42

slope, your heels aren't kissing the ground anymore.

53:44

If you're doing a lot of hill work,

53:46

getting ready for an ultra, your

53:48

calves get blown up, shin splints can take

53:50

over, all that kind of stuff can happen.

53:52

So I'd say first and foremost just make

53:54

sure that anything you are doing in the

53:56

gym, you are matching it with stretching, warm-ups,

53:58

cool-downs, they don't need to be long, but

54:00

they have to be happening. Um,

54:03

the second thing I would say is just in

54:05

terms of types of movement, anything

54:08

super technical or like skill-based, and you

54:10

see that a lot in the CrossFit

54:12

gyms and stuff like that, just ask

54:14

yourself what purpose it's serving you it's

54:17

again, this is kind of like the number thing. It's

54:19

easy to be in an environment and all of a

54:21

sudden you're swept up and caring if you can do

54:24

that specific skill. But if you don't directly

54:26

understand why that would benefit your running. And

54:29

it's a risk for injury. Like I would,

54:31

I wouldn't do that. Can you give us an

54:33

example of something that might be too technical or

54:35

skill-based? I mean, the only thing that popped into

54:37

my head was a muscle up. That's exactly what

54:40

I was kind of thinking, but I also, I think

54:43

there's a lot of strain, like so

54:45

pistol squat, for example, for anyone listening

54:47

who doesn't know what that is, it's

54:49

a single leg, you know, full depth

54:51

squat. And these can

54:53

be, if not

54:55

modified properly, can do all kinds of

54:57

things to your knee and hip if you're

54:59

not careful. Those types of

55:01

things are great. If you know exactly what you're doing.

55:04

And if you don't, I don't see a place for

55:06

a pistol squat necessarily for a runner, if they're not

55:08

being watched over, um, with

55:11

anything pull up, muscle up related, you know,

55:14

that's not technically helping our, our

55:16

running. It's, it's helping our upper body strength and our

55:18

posture may be in our form in that way, um,

55:22

but you don't need to be doing it. And

55:24

I would say because we're already limited on time for

55:27

our training. You know, spend that

55:29

time on something that's going to be more

55:31

core focused or, you know, glue something lower

55:33

body. I want to double click real

55:35

quick on what you said about things

55:38

that make you feel tight, you know, like

55:40

heavy lifting, I think is one thing that

55:42

if you're not used to that, it

55:45

does make you feel a little, you know,

55:47

you'll feel muscle bound, even if you're as

55:49

skinny as I am. Yeah. Yeah. And, you

55:52

know, I put a bunch of other things

55:54

in that category of if you do this,

55:57

you're just not going to feel super physically

55:59

robust afterwards. A long run

56:01

is an example. Like if

56:03

you do your long run on a Saturday

56:05

morning, you probably are not going to feel

56:07

your most athletic on Saturday afternoon. Same

56:10

thing with a very hard track workout

56:12

or hill workout, something like that. So

56:15

if you have a lot of things in

56:17

your training that cause you

56:19

to feel tight or just

56:21

kind of muscle bound a little bit,

56:24

you know, like that soreness that sort

56:26

of restricts your movement slightly, hard

56:28

workouts, long runs, even just high volume

56:31

overall, like, you know, you're running 12

56:33

miles a day, you're probably going to

56:35

feel kind of tight on a day

56:37

to day basis. And so

56:39

the more of those things are in your training,

56:41

I think the more important it is to

56:43

do your mobility work, to spend some

56:45

time on the foam roller, to maybe

56:47

have a, you know, five minute yoga

56:50

practice a couple times a week, you know,

56:52

just practice some of those extra movements. You

56:54

know, I'm not a huge static stretching fan, but you

56:57

know, at the end of the day, if you want

56:59

to do some static stretching and you just feel really

57:01

tight, that can just make you feel better.

57:04

And no, it's probably not going to prevent your

57:06

next injury, but you might just feel better the

57:08

next day. And I think there's real value in

57:10

that. Absolutely. And I also think if you

57:12

are really sore and you are feeling really beat down,

57:14

those types of things can also make it easier to

57:16

sleep that night easier to wind down if you put

57:18

it at the end of your day. You

57:22

also just, it's this

57:24

week or the next week might be totally fine. You

57:26

might be handling the volume totally fine in the hard

57:28

workouts and then you're not, you know, it just takes

57:30

one day. It just takes one week to be totally

57:32

off and things can start to trend

57:35

in the wrong direction from there. So

57:37

setting yourself up to, I don't want to say like

57:39

deserve the workouts, but they have to be matched in

57:41

some way. If you are going to be like upping

57:43

the volume in a way to get

57:46

you all the way to the finish line, depending on

57:48

how many months this is, it's, it's kind of a crucial

57:50

part. Yeah, I wouldn't say deserve the workout,

57:52

but maybe earn the workout. Earn the workout.

57:55

Yeah. Yeah. You have

57:57

to, you have to earn certain workouts and long run.

58:00

Distances, I mean you have to earn the right to

58:02

run 20 miles You can't do that

58:04

in the first week that you pick up running

58:06

right you've got to get there. Absolutely. Yep, Holly

58:08

I think we have figured

58:10

out how ultra runners can effectively

58:13

add strength training to their

58:15

training programs There doesn't need to

58:17

be any more conversation on this

58:19

topic at all. We've done it.

58:22

We're there We hit it all I'm

58:26

sure we missed a bunch but I Really?

58:28

Hope this gets ultra runners

58:30

at least thinking more strategically

58:32

about their strength training habits

58:35

and just understanding that There's so

58:37

many benefits that can be gained and

58:39

it's really an indispensable part of the

58:42

training process So thank you for

58:44

being here if folks want to check

58:46

in on you and and See what you're

58:48

up to on on the internet because I know you

58:50

produce a lot of content as well that it's gonna

58:52

be super helpful Where can folks find you

58:54

primarily they can find me on my YouTube

58:57

channel? You can just search Holly Martin I

58:59

think my handle now is go far so

59:01

good. I thought that was a

59:03

cute little tagline there I like it. I

59:05

like it. So you can find me on YouTube or just

59:07

my regular website Martin Holly

59:09

comm I just reversed my name and

59:12

yeah love to keep making content for you

59:14

guys. This was awesome Really it

59:16

was really fun talking you yeah, and I will

59:18

have links to that in the show notes So you

59:20

can check that out in the episode description Holly Martin.

59:22

Thanks for being here. Thank you What

59:25

an episode? Thank you so much for

59:27

listening and being part of our community

59:29

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59:31

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1:00:00

and more, follow me on Instagram,

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at JasonSis1. We'll be in touch.