0:02

Let's drop the

0:02

green flag on this episode of

0:05

the talent tank podcast with

0:05

your host Wyatt Pemberton

0:09

bringing you the best, fastest,

0:09

most knowledgeable personalities

0:13

and ultra for and off road

0:13

racing.

0:20

Here we go. All

0:20

right. All right. Welcome back

0:25

to the talent tank. As you guys

0:25

clicked on today's episode, wow,

0:30

yes. Ultra4 represented here.

0:30

This guy. I've been on him for a

0:35

long time to come on the show.

0:35

And he kept saying no, I'm not

0:37

the guy. keep focusing on the

0:37

racers keep focusing on the fab

0:40

guys. But then finally, finally,

0:40

he gave in. I'm so glad he's on.

0:46

Alan Johnson. Alan, how are you?

0:49

I'm doing

0:49

fantastic. How are you? Oh, man,

0:51

well ecstatic

0:51

to sit down here with you. You

0:53

know, you've had a long day of

0:53

work. And then this and then I

0:57

had a long day at work rush home

0:57

to get in to sit down and do the

1:00

next couple hours with you. So

1:00

I'm pretty pumped.

1:03

Me too. I appreciate you having me on. But

1:06

so Alan, Alan,

1:06

if people aren't familiar with

1:09

Alan or the name, and he's not a

1:09

racer today, he was a racer in

1:13

the past. He's got a couple

1:13

national championship titles to

1:16

his name in 4500. But he is the

1:16

current Marketing and

1:22

Communications vice president of

1:22

ultra4 racing. It's a big title.

1:26

I was gonna say

1:26

sounds that way. I don't want to

1:29

I don't want that guy's job.

1:31

I don't know of

1:31

anyone that wants your job. You

1:33

do kind of everything. That's

1:33

your title. But you're kind of

1:36

the the current do all for

1:36

Ultra4 right. It seems like

1:39

everything kind of falls towards

1:39

you.

1:42

You know, I'm the

1:42

do all that you see because I

1:45

get to interact with people

1:45

online or you know, racers and

1:49

scheduling. But if you want to

1:49

find a real do all go find a

1:52

Virgo find, you know, Scott

1:52

Hartman and ultra for in general

1:57

is everyone may have a defined

1:57

role. But we're all doodles to a

2:00

certain extent, I just get to do

2:00

with social media and

2:03

communication. So it was the

2:03

ugliest mug bacon find and said

2:07

you go be social media.

2:09

Okay, fair,

2:09

fair, fair, fair, fair

2:11

assessment of yourself. Yes. I

2:11

mean, that's how I put it. I

2:14

will say that I was really

2:14

shocked. You know, at one point,

2:17

the ultra4 social media

2:17

presence, it felt like it was a

2:22

team effort. And then talking to

2:22

you recently, that might have

2:25

been the case in the past. But

2:25

today, almost all social media,

2:28

we see time ends up originating

2:28

in your head to a certain

2:32

extent, again, you're never

2:32

going to get me to say

2:34

something's not a team effort,

2:34

because everything is to a

2:38

certain respect. We've got fantastic

2:39

photographers that provide

2:41

content and putting words to

2:41

Epic photos is a lot easier than

2:45

you would think. sales teams

2:45

done a great job working and

2:49

building communication with our

2:49

partners. So we're, we plan

2:52

ahead, we planned ahead for the

2:52

bronco launch, we planned ahead

2:55

for, you know, on site events.

2:55

So I coordinate it and probably

3:00

touch the buttons quite a bit.

3:00

But it is still a team effort

3:03

when it comes to the messaging

3:03

and gathering all the content.

3:06

I know you guys have been

3:06

killing it, I there's no way it

3:09

all can originate at one point

3:09

of failure, so to speak, or

3:13

there's no short circuiting of

3:13

that it is the cool stuff, you

3:16

know, the top 10 drivers, the

3:16

top 10 vehicles, the top 10

3:20

races, the you guys are

3:20

constantly finding new and

3:24

interesting ways to engage the

3:24

audience.

3:28

Well, it's fun

3:28

when it's something you love, ya

3:30

know, and we love the sport and

3:30

we love the drivers. And yet

3:34

man, there are some amazing

3:34

content creators in this space.

3:36

So it's actually really neat

3:36

just provide a platform for all

3:39

the creatives that tell the

3:39

story. Because all of us have

3:43

been involved in racing for so

3:43

long. That's part of what draws

3:46

us to it is the stories and the

3:46

personal aspect and the pitch

3:50

and the challenges No, I love it.

3:52

I utilize a lot

3:52

of your headshots a lot of guys

3:54

the entities that have raised

3:54

this show with their time

3:58

presence of U4 got, you know,

3:58

the your picture, something that

4:02

you snap of their head, end up

4:02

being, what their cover art is,

4:07

and I appreciate that.

4:09

You know, it's really I've got to

4:09

give that credit to my wife, she

4:12

and then we'll talk about her in

4:12

a little bit but she's very

4:14

supportive. And even when she's

4:14

criticizing she criticizes

4:18

supportively so she's, you know,

4:18

like, like any husband, you

4:21

know, look, Honey, what I made,

4:21

she was real honest with me.

4:24

After about the fourth picture,

4:24

all the racecars start to look

4:27

the same to her. That's kind of

4:27

not her gig. I mean, I can tell

4:31

you exactly who they are by

4:31

their silhouette coming through

4:33

dust with no numbers showing but

4:33

they look the same to her so I

4:37

happen to snap some pictures of

4:37

you know, Dave and JT and Andrew

4:42

and a couple others. Oh, that's

4:42

who that is. And so I started

4:45

going to events and tried to

4:45

make sure I took people pics

4:48

they always teased me that I was

4:48

the mom in the group Anyway, you

4:51

know, I always want to make sure

4:51

I get school picks and people

4:53

picks and lineup so we can get

4:53

the family but but it is and

4:57

that became one of the most

4:57

popular parts of what we did.

5:00

Then now an event is a failure

5:00

if at least eight people don't

5:04

use my photos as their, their

5:04

profile shot on Facebook. So

5:08

it's kind of kind of turned into

5:08

a thing. But I absolutely love

5:11

it. Because I try to get into

5:11

shots, I try to get people do

5:13

what love and again just tells a

5:13

different story of ultra for

5:16

that I think people can relate

5:16

to even if they can't build

5:19

cars, they can understand

5:19

smiling and family and having a

5:22

good time,

5:23

which is what it's all about to begin with. Right? We'd you bet we'd hang

5:25

out with, you know, our best

5:28

friends, if we were ditch

5:28

diggers, just to be around our

5:31

best friends, you know, and the

5:31

people that we call basically

5:34

our family, our race family. So like, exactly, yeah, you're

5:36

killing?

5:37

Yeah,

5:37

I had a

5:37

conversation with Lana over at

5:40

Scotts designs. And because I

5:40

needed I actually used a picture

5:43

of hers here in the past couple

5:43

weeks. And as I reached out to

5:47

her, I'd realized that she had

5:47

taken a picture of you. And I'd

5:51

asked her about it months, months and months ago, and she said, Yes, a unit, which was a

5:53

reminder for me to hit you back

5:55

up and say, Hey, when are you

5:55

gonna? Come on? You finally

6:00

said, Yeah, I'll do it. What was

6:00

it? What was the apprehension?

6:04

You know,

6:04

honestly, I, this is so funny.

6:07

If you know me, you know, I

6:07

won't shut up, you know, I like

6:09

to be the center of attention,

6:09

unless I'm the center of

6:12

attention. And I'm so interested

6:12

in helping ultra for grow, and

6:17

really putting the spotlight on

6:17

a sport that I love and the

6:20

people I love, that I honestly

6:20

didn't want it to be you know

6:25

about me. And now you've done

6:25

enough shows, and you've

6:28

established yourself and you've

6:28

had some amazing guests. And I'm

6:31

like, Okay, now Now I can slip

6:31

in here and talk a little bit

6:33

about now. And it not detract

6:33

from older four or things along

6:37

those lines. So for me, it's

6:37

just a matter of timing, I like

6:39

to tell the story, I don't like

6:39

to be the story, if that makes

6:41

sense. The guy behind the camera

6:41

at all times. The other person

6:45

that I recall, it had this same

6:45

kind of apprehension was wil

6:48

Gentile, another guy who's

6:48

behind the camera, good to say,

6:52

that guy's a genius. Definitely

6:52

one of my mentors and heroes

6:56

when it comes to telling stories

6:56

and media and content creation.

7:00

And again, another one of those

7:00

examples of someone who early in

7:03

my career, would spend time to

7:03

just share and coach and

7:08

befriend someone and you don't

7:08

see that in other sports. But

7:12

that vibe permeated the media

7:12

family just racing.

7:15

Oh, for sure.

7:15

Get it out there because I

7:18

skipped it. You're on Instagram

7:18

as the @dustygnome, you're kind

7:22

of on top of questions that and

7:22

then you're on Facebook, you

7:26

know, with you know, white

7:26

collar publishing is kind of

7:29

what your photography businesses

7:29

on the side. And like I said,

7:32

I'm definitely gonna go into all

7:32

that. But as people have seen,

7:36

the dusty gnome year there,

7:36

that's your presence, but you're

7:40

also you're kind of one of the

7:40

guys behind the scenes on the

7:43

ultra four posts. So you can

7:43

kind of see that oozing through

7:46

certainly, we want to talk about

7:46

how you got into photography and

7:49

kind of how that has taken off

7:49

in the off road world and kind

7:53

of even how that ended up with

7:53

your role. You know, at over

7:57

four. I will get in there here

7:57

in a little bit. But, man, I

8:00

want to talk about just current

8:00

issues kind of real quick,

8:02

because I'm gonna say this

8:02

weekend, we've got nationals in

8:06

Oklahoma. What's going on there

8:06

man is everything on track. One

8:10

of the things that we need to

8:10

know the ultra four wants us to

8:13

know, as we approach you know,

8:13

the next four or five days,

8:17

and I am so

8:17

friggin excited. I mean, it's

8:20

it's cliche at this point to say

8:20

2020 has been a strange year,

8:24

but I mean, that's actually one

8:24

of the hallmarks of ultra for

8:27

right sort of ability to adapt

8:27

and overcome whether it's on the

8:30

race course or you know what

8:30

states open what states closed,

8:34

so I'm really we're gonna be

8:34

Davis, Oklahoma, I fully enjoy

8:37

when we go to Reno and we'll be

8:37

back in Reno for 2021. But Brian

8:41

Trotter and the whole crew out

8:41

of the crossbar ranch really

8:44

made it easy for us to put on a

8:44

top notch race at a fantastic

8:49

facility that frankly is more

8:49

centrally located for more

8:51

people. Trotter and the crew

8:51

opened up more course so JT went

8:55

out and just had a blast just

8:55

about a 30 mile Racecourse still

8:59

an a lap or an a loop which is

8:59

more speed related and then a

9:03

very technical rocky be looped

9:03

through the creeks and the

9:06

climbs. two laps for stock. So

9:06

stocks doing 60 miles. Oh nice.

9:11

Nice. Yeah, 90 miles, three laps

9:11

for legends modified. And quite

9:15

frankly, I love to be on the

9:15

conversation with Jay He's like,

9:17

Hey, we told you TVs prove

9:17

themselves they prove themselves

9:20

let's give them something hard

9:20

to so you TVs are running three

9:23

laps as well. And in the big

9:23

boys are doing four so it's 120

9:27

mile final to cap out the year.

9:27

So since we couldn't race as

9:31

many races as we wanted to.

9:31

We'll just race launder in each

9:35

race and try to make up for it.

9:36

I like that I think the racers are like that too. But that's really going to

9:38

change strategy for Davis when

9:41

you start looking at that many miles.

9:42

Oh man and and do

9:42

you do you pick at the end of

9:45

the day or at the end of the be?

9:45

I mean, that's really one of the

9:48

nice aspects of Crossfire Ranch

9:48

is the course is almost like a

9:53

bow tie or a figure eight. So

9:53

you can do you know, a loop and

9:56

a half. So yeah, strategy is

9:56

certainly part of it. And it

9:59

truly makes it an endurance race

9:59

again. Yeah, no, it's a there's

10:02

a short course component.

10:02

There's a tight wooded

10:04

component. Love the drag race

10:04

five the windmills and stuff. I

10:09

mean, it's absolutely a

10:09

beautiful course. But yeah, it's

10:12

a long day. And we think it'll

10:12

be super competitive. And with

10:16

the points being so jacked up

10:16

this year as well, I mean, let's

10:19

again just be frank, we went

10:19

from King of the hammers

10:22

nationals and six regional races

10:22

to we've had four races this

10:27

year, and then a bonus race at

10:27

Crandon so nationals count and

10:31

whether you finish you know two

10:31

laps or four laps is going to

10:34

make a dramatic difference in

10:34

what the season ending point

10:37

totals are. So we've got great

10:37

cars, great drivers, great

10:40

course. But frankly enough drama

10:40

that you're not going to know

10:44

what's going on until it's four

10:44

it's not in a bag or one

10:47

person's race to lose at this

10:47

point. And that's cool. Who

10:49

doesn't like a good competitive

10:49

hard fought race?

10:52

Yeah, and

10:52

that's gonna be strategy as well

10:55

not just not just on the pinning

10:55

strategy, but literally, you

10:58

know, how hard Do you push and

10:58

when do you push and where do

11:00

you push just to ensure you can

11:00

get the finish? I mean, hundred

11:03

20 Miles Davis is not going to

11:03

be a walk in the park.

11:07

I have on good

11:07

authority. That champ is going

11:10

checkers or records Deland on

11:10

the box. So at the very least,

11:13

you got to watch chip to see

11:13

what what he does because he is

11:16

going all out for all hundred 20

11:16

miles from what I understand.

11:20

That is how is that different than any other race for him?

11:23

Chip happens, man. He's putting it ahead of time.

11:28

Oh, Lord, I

11:28

love that guy. He's in Texas.

11:31

Yep,

11:32

just a couple

11:32

other things that are important

11:34

to note not to get too much into

11:34

the business side of things. But

11:37

there are a few differences this

11:37

year. And again, it just has to

11:41

do with this being such an

11:41

unusual year. Typically you had

11:44

to raise hammers and a regional

11:44

race to be able to come to

11:47

Nationals. It was kind of earned

11:47

your way into it. Obviously we

11:51

didn't have as many chances to

11:51

race this year so nationals are

11:55

open to anyone even if it's

11:55

their their first race of the

11:58

year. However, it's not a gimme

11:58

ko h qualifier. So this is not a

12:04

way to short circuit LC Q and

12:04

show up and go haha, I mean

12:07

getting the hammers No, you

12:07

could done that in Tennessee,

12:09

they've done that in people who

12:09

want to just experience ultra

12:12

for people who want to shake

12:12

down before hammers, this is a

12:15

great opportunity to come out

12:15

and race and really enjoy it.

12:20

Also, like it or not the digital

12:20

reduced contact experiences

12:24

where we live these days. And so

12:24

we're utilizing some of those

12:27

elements at Nationals, you may

12:27

have already noticed, you know,

12:29

you can pre register online, you

12:29

can buy tickets online, there's

12:34

a lot more you can do. And we

12:34

want to incorporate these at

12:37

Nationals. So we can refine it

12:37

for King of the hammers this

12:40

year. So it's going to be the

12:40

same great stuff. We love doing

12:43

just a couple little nuances due

12:43

to the the year but yeah,

12:47

nationals are just gonna rock

12:48

digital transformation mean that's that's a cool, cool beta way to

12:50

test you will get grace on

12:54

rolling anything new out, but to

12:54

roll it out at kfh would be

12:58

almost reckless. So it's very

12:58

cool to hear you guys are taking

13:01

some very proactive steps.

13:03

But as I say this

13:03

with love, it's hard to change

13:06

things that ultra for sometimes

13:06

this is how we've done it, it

13:09

does its stuff, it works, don't

13:09

mess with it. But this year has

13:13

really given us a chance. And

13:13

Dave, quite frankly, is really

13:16

empowered, you know, myself,

13:16

he's empowered Ryan, he's

13:20

empowered Scott. And so we've

13:20

got a chance to try some things

13:24

different since it is such a

13:24

disruptive year as it is anyway,

13:28

all in the spirit of making the

13:28

experience better for our

13:31

racers, our fans, our sponsors,

13:31

so I don't like this year, but

13:35

I'm grateful for this year

13:35

because I think it gives us a

13:38

chance to try some things

13:38

that'll just make the whole

13:41

sport and the whole experience

13:41

better going forward.

13:43

Love to hear that. So we talked about like how tight things are gonna be,

13:45

you know, certainly strategy,

13:48

there's gonna be some call outs

13:48

for because there's a lot of

13:51

things on the line with this

13:51

race, because of what it is. And

13:55

when it is being the last race

13:55

of the year. And national titles

13:59

being what they are. You know,

13:59

Moab was kind of the the first

14:03

chance to see the USAC timing

14:03

system in play. How did that

14:07

play out? Do you guys have an

14:07

instill confidence now after the

14:11

problems that we've had over the

14:11

past couple years, with timing

14:15

and in finishes?

14:17

Absolutely. Again,

14:17

this is one of those areas where

14:20

we're getting a chance to try

14:20

something different and USAC has

14:23

been doing this for years and

14:23

other race series and events.

14:27

Certainly we post some

14:27

additional challenges just

14:29

because of the rock and the

14:29

remote location. But Moab was a

14:33

great experience to figure out

14:33

what worked and what didn't work

14:36

and it was actually very smooth

14:36

from a timing perspective. One

14:39

of the things we do the Monday

14:39

after every race to sit down and

14:43

capture what worked what didn't

14:43

work, we take notes again Ryan

14:46

Thomas is very organized about a

14:46

learn and apply what we learn to

14:50

the next one. So you will see a

14:50

timing be even tighter at

14:55

nationals and of course all of

14:55

this is pointing towards just

14:58

making it turnkey reliable.

14:58

trustworthy, so long to get two

15:02

hammers and future racism

15:02

beyond, I don't have to check

15:05

means of Keio, ah to see how

15:05

we're getting lampooned to that

15:08

particular event because of

15:08

timing. So, you know, we've got

15:11

an independent third party,

15:11

they're very good at what they

15:14

do. And I'm really excited, we

15:14

made that change. Because it

15:17

takes a lot of the drama and

15:17

guesswork out of it, they're

15:20

good at what they do,

15:21

just lends confidence all the way around the board. And we've seen that

15:23

confidence eroded and, you know,

15:26

there's, there's a lot of grace

15:26

to be given. But when it's, you

15:30

know, endless and continuous,

15:30

it's like, Okay, guys, we're

15:32

over it. But let's, let's get

15:32

proverbial, you know, crap

15:35

together.

15:36

Again, a great

15:36

example of being able to know

15:39

what you're good at and know

15:39

what you're not good at, and go

15:41

find people who are great at it.

15:41

If it's a gap, and it's a gap we

15:44

had, and we're really excited to

15:44

partner with USAC we think

15:47

it'll, it'll make a big difference.

15:49

First, and

15:49

foremost, thank you for the

15:51

insight on what we have coming

15:51

up here at Nationals. I'm pretty

15:54

excited. Um, you know, I don't

15:54

live that far away. It's still

15:58

seven and a half hour drive. But

15:58

you know, when you live in

16:01

Texas, it's kind of everywhere

16:01

is a day drive no matter what.

16:04

So and based on I've got some

16:04

meetings on that, you know, on

16:08

Friday morning, so I'm actually

16:08

going to fly up I'm gonna fly to

16:10

Dallas and grab a rental car.

16:10

And enjoy guys, you be there for

16:14

qualifying right afternoon. And

16:14

then you brought chip a little

16:17

while ago last last nationals

16:17

chip had a flame thrower that

16:22

was always you know, something

16:22

fun that everyone needs in their

16:25

pit spaces. A flame thrower,

16:25

that was pretty solid chip. So

16:28

please bring that again. And

16:28

anyhow, we will have a good

16:32

time. And Alan I absolutely

16:32

can't wait to see you in person.

16:35

So it's very cool that we're

16:35

getting a right from the horse's

16:38

mouth for moltar for kind of

16:38

some of the details you just

16:41

gave us a ton of insight on on

16:41

the course so people will hear

16:45

this they've got a couple days

16:45

to plan for strategy as as

16:49

they're loading and packing up

16:49

to head to South Central south

16:53

central Oklahoma are now

16:53

shifting gears let's get into

16:57

let's let's flashback. Let's go.

16:57

Why people are here. You know,

17:00

really to talk about you. That's

17:00

my plan.

17:04

flashbacks the

17:04

right word for it. You're What

17:07

are you if I do my math, right,

17:07

you're about 4848 be 49 lakhs

17:12

should be 49 in February, you

17:12

know, King of the hammers and my

17:15

birthday parties figure in quite

17:15

solid, but yes, I'm reaching the

17:18

point where I can say pushing 50

17:21

you're getting

17:21

close. You actually win. I've

17:23

watched you buzz around the

17:23

media tent at in hammer town.

17:27

You buzz around like somebody

17:27

who's in their 20s or somebody

17:31

who definitely doesn't think about beer that before.

17:33

Which whiskey whiskey good for your first statement.

17:37

I like that

17:37

statement as well. So were you

17:39

born in Arkansas?

17:41

You know,

17:41

ironically, I wasn't. I was born

17:44

in Anaheim, California. I grew

17:44

up in Laguna Hills. We lived

17:47

there until I was seven. But

17:47

both sets of my parents and all

17:51

my grandparents all grew up in

17:51

Arkansas. So California late 70s

17:56

wasn't exactly where he wanted

17:56

to raise kids. So we moved to

17:59

Northwest Arkansas and I grew up

17:59

in Heber Springs, Arkansas. I

18:03

consider that home. It's the

18:03

type of place where you can walk

18:06

down senior Hall in the high

18:06

school and see pictures of your

18:09

mom and all her brothers and

18:09

sisters, your grandparents, all

18:12

their brothers and sisters and

18:12

it's just really blessed and

18:15

later almost no junk food

18:15

Mellencamp style small American

18:19

Midwest town. It was just

18:19

fantastic. I loved it.

18:22

And today you

18:22

live in Bella Vista, right?

18:25

Right now I live

18:25

in Northwest Arkansas. My wife

18:28

and I laughed for a long time we

18:28

lived up and down I 40 for a

18:31

decade. Right? We lived in

18:31

Memphis, we went to Little Rock.

18:33

We lived in Nashville. We live

18:33

back in Memphis. But we never

18:36

spent much time up in the

18:36

northern part of the state. And

18:40

my son, I'm sure we'll talk

18:40

about in a little bit goes to

18:42

the University of Arkansas. My

18:42

sister lives up here in Pea

18:46

Ridge. So we went and visited

18:46

Northwest Arkansas and we're

18:49

just blown away. You know, it's

18:49

Walmart's world headquarters. So

18:53

there's a lot of taxpayer money

18:53

here. But there's these

18:55

outstanding mountain bike trails

18:55

and beaver lake and I don't

18:59

know, it's just a really, really

18:59

cool part of the state to live

19:03

in. Because there's there's good

19:03

restaurants and Crystal Bridges

19:06

museum and you know stuff but

19:06

it's still Southern and friendly

19:10

and you wave when you pass

19:10

people on the road. So really

19:13

digging it up.

19:14

Now, I've been

19:14

I've parted at University of

19:17

Arkansas for you know, many,

19:17

many times and actually had a

19:21

365 day ban from the city of

19:21

Springdale, Arkansas for some

19:26

antiques back back in that era

19:26

in the late 90s of partying down

19:29

there.

19:30

Oh no, when I

19:30

moved on the questionnaire, do

19:33

you know why? And I lied. This

19:33

is one reason why they let me up

19:36

here. So we're good.

19:38

We're good.

19:38

That is a big part of the UI.

19:40

You got to Kasler.

19:42

I don't much I

19:42

mean, it's it's really weird.

19:46

I'm weird. What am I saying? You

19:46

know, as soon as things I travel

19:49

all the time, so when I'm home,

19:49

I tend to stay around home. I

19:53

like to fish around here. I play

19:53

with my dogs, walk them, go to

19:57

the dog park, stuff like that,

19:57

but I really don't do much

20:00

Around home, just because I'm

20:00

here so infrequently I really

20:03

want to enjoy.

20:05

Fair enough. So

20:05

growing up, did you have you

20:09

have any siblings? Are you only

20:09

child?

20:11

depends on who you

20:11

talk to. I act like I'm an only

20:14

child, but I do have two sisters

20:14

and a brother. But I'm the

20:17

oldest. So I guess I'm the only

20:17

child that matters if you want

20:20

to put it that way. And I know

20:20

they're listening and they can't

20:24

say anything back. So I will do

20:24

that. But no, I've got I've got

20:27

a younger sister Jenny, who's

20:27

two years younger than me. Well,

20:30

sister Maggie, who's eight years

20:30

younger, my little brother

20:32

David, who's 10 years younger.

20:32

My sister lives in Pea Ridge and

20:36

her husband Sean's head Ranger

20:36

at beaver Lake, just wonderful

20:40

family and their kids and they

20:40

live out in the country. So on

20:43

Sundays, that's where we go

20:43

shooting, we can go out there

20:45

and you know, put a few rounds

20:45

through and just kind of relax,

20:48

love it. I will sister Maggie is

20:48

actually in full time ministry.

20:52

She and her husband travel with

20:52

a group of young people go to

20:55

churches and basically do

20:55

revivals geared towards couples.

20:59

So they spend eight months a

20:59

year on road when they're four

21:02

kids all 10 and under, I can't

21:02

imagine. And then my little

21:05

brother David fortunately moved

21:05

up here a couple years ago, he's

21:08

a marine is done a couple tours

21:08

and and just banish love. My

21:12

little brother morning went on

21:12

the face of the planet, so I'm

21:14

tickled to death. He's up here

21:14

close. So that was part of the

21:18

reason we moved back was to be

21:18

near family and let our kids be

21:21

near family before they went off

21:21

to college. And I've got a real

21:25

good crew.

21:27

And I didn't go

21:27

into I know at some point it was

21:29

gonna come up. But when you say

21:29

move back, I remember. And we'll

21:33

just again, jumping forward and

21:33

back at the same time. You lived

21:36

in Phoenix, and that was kind of

21:36

where you got into offering. How

21:39

long ago did you move from

21:39

Phoenix back to Arkansas.

21:42

I am not gonna

21:42

lie. I fell in love with the

21:46

desert. I never even been to

21:46

Phoenix until two weeks before I

21:49

started a job out there. And I

21:49

knew I'd gone native one year

21:53

when the desert was a little bit

21:53

less beige. And I said, ooh,

21:56

it's awfully green this year.

21:56

But that's where I met my off

22:00

road family. That's where I fell

22:00

in love with wheeling and

22:03

crawling and hanging out with

22:03

all the Jeep clubs and really

22:07

just grew a lot out in the

22:07

desert and loved it stayed

22:12

really connected. But come back

22:12

to Arkansas every year,

22:15

sometimes twice a year, my

22:15

wife's family's all from

22:17

Arkansas as well. But my dad had

22:17

a longer term illness had COPD,

22:22

he was a mechanic for years and

22:22

years and years and all those

22:26

chemicals and things like that

22:26

just another on the lungs. And I

22:29

was just really blessed to have

22:29

an opportunity to be here during

22:32

his last year before he passed.

22:32

Everything just worked out.

22:35

We're able to move back here. My

22:35

son was already going to college

22:37

here. My mom and dad had moved

22:37

up here. So yeah, it was

22:41

absolutely the right reason to

22:41

move home. May was three years

22:44

I've been back on was three and

22:44

a half years now. So

22:47

Time flies, doesn't it?

22:48

Man, it's just

22:48

weird time as an accordion. It

22:50

goes really fast and really slow

22:50

depending on what's going on.

22:54

Well, sorry to hear about the loss of your father. I mean, that doesn't sit

22:55

well, you know, for anybody on

23:00

any level. But if he gave you

23:00

anything, it was the ability to

23:03

you know, that move back to

23:03

Arkansas to be worth it and, you

23:07

know, be able to separate you

23:07

know, his life the you know, all

23:10

your family right there. You're

23:11

right. Oh, you

23:11

bet. And my dad's always with

23:14

us, my love of music comes from

23:14

him. You know, My son is almost

23:18

like watching a version of him

23:18

and my grandfather. So, you

23:22

know, dad's legacy is super

23:22

strong, and we miss him

23:25

tremendously. I mean, I'll get

23:25

emotionally ambushed. Sometimes

23:29

a certain Neil Young song will

23:29

come on and I'll get all choked

23:31

up. But, you know, enough time

23:31

has passed and I'm just super

23:35

grateful for the time I did have

23:35

with dad the lessons he taught

23:39

us the example he set for us,

23:39

you know, both as husbands but

23:42

his fathers were all trying

23:42

really hard to live up to his

23:45

standard, miss the heck out of

23:45

them. But like I say, he's here

23:48

with us every day.

23:50

So as a kid,

23:50

what were your curiosities? No.

23:53

And a lot of that. What did you

23:53

want to be when you grew up? One

23:56

day when you were going to Alan

23:56

was going to be an adult and

23:59

he's gonna have to adult one

23:59

day. What did he want to be?

24:02

I was going to be

24:02

an investment banker in Boston

24:04

who drove and jack Michael P.

24:04

Keaton was my hero. So yes, I

24:10

was born in 72. I'm a child of

24:10

the 80s. And I don't know I

24:14

think I watched the equalizer

24:14

and saw an x j six with dove

24:18

gray leather interior and a

24:18

walnut dash and I had my whole

24:21

life figured out by sixth grade.

24:21

So that was my plan. vestment

24:25

banker, Boston

24:27

Jaguar, and

24:27

today you are jeeps and jaguars.

24:30

Well, I always

24:30

have a little bit of that Jaguar

24:32

in there. That's how I drove an

24:32

fJ for so long. So I didn't say

24:34

Akshay and pretend it was either

24:34

a Jeep or a Jaguar because

24:37

they're both extremes. But no, I

24:37

loved it. It was just something

24:41

about that. That look in that

24:41

feel I loved English cars. At

24:45

the time. I thought I wanted

24:45

money. Obviously I've had some

24:48

life since then. And money's

24:48

nice. Lord knows you got to pay

24:51

the bills. But there's a lot

24:51

more important things than that.

24:55

And ironically, that's actually

24:55

how it those are really a

25:00

conflated story, if you will, I

25:00

mean, let's be really clear. In

25:04

school, I had no friends or

25:04

social skills, I read books I

25:07

was the drum major, you know,

25:07

was pretty much me just shorter

25:11

and fatter. It's just kind of

25:11

the way it is. I actually had a

25:13

Marine Corps ROTC scholarship to

25:13

go to Boston University. That

25:17

was my plan. And I that's how I

25:17

was going to pay for school and

25:20

do all that. And in between my

25:20

junior and senior year of high

25:23

school, ironically, I do have a

25:23

story that starts with this one

25:27

time at band camp, I was coming

25:27

back from band camp, and fell

25:30

asleep and just ran off the road

25:30

17 years old and went through

25:35

the windshield and smashed my

25:35

face, my nose and eye socket,

25:38

cheekbone and lower jaw are all

25:38

reconstructed, and quite

25:42

frankly, should have died. That

25:42

has been a massive impact and

25:46

influence on my life both good

25:46

and bad. But its first immediate

25:51

influence was recorded once

25:51

someone with a broken face. So

25:55

when our ship and I dream of

25:55

going Boston and my Jaguar and

25:57

all that literally went away

25:57

with a really long blink,

26:00

how did that

26:00

impact you? I mean, mentally

26:03

that had just destroyed you. Right?

26:05

You know, it was weird. I went through a phase where Hey, you're 17 you almost

26:07

die. You know, when you're 17

26:11

you feel bulletproof. Anyway, I

26:11

went to the other extreme with a

26:14

should have died. So who cares.

26:14

And it was just really reckless

26:17

for four or five years.

26:17

Obviously, I talked a lot. I

26:20

like to talk a lot. I like to

26:20

use my power for good, if you

26:23

will. And I try to encourage

26:23

people and try to build them up.

26:27

And I really try to look for the

26:27

best in people. I was the

26:31

opposite of that for about five

26:31

years, I was pretty much a

26:34

butthead. You know, as as fast

26:34

as a friend as whatever.

26:38

I can't even imagine that I can't even imagine you like that.

26:41

But it was it was

26:41

true. It was one of those things

26:43

where I had everything going for

26:43

me. But there was a part of me

26:47

going this is borrowed time

26:47

anyway, screw it. And so just

26:50

really didn't have my head on

26:50

straight. Yet again, this is

26:53

hysterical because there's a

26:53

movie called sliding doors. I

26:57

don't know if you've seen it.

26:57

I'm sure we're not all huge

26:59

Gwyneth Paltrow fans, but it's a

26:59

fascinating movie about she's

27:04

going down the stairs and misses

27:04

the subway. And then it shows

27:07

her going down the stairs and

27:07

she catches the subway and in

27:10

one instance, she goes home and

27:10

catches her differenti any other

27:13

she does, and it shows how her

27:13

life goes down two different

27:16

paths just because of one

27:16

choice. And I would never have

27:20

gone to Memphis state if I

27:20

hadn't had my accident, I would

27:23

never have met my wife, I would

27:23

never have gone more towards the

27:26

artsy side of things. Because I

27:26

went the complete opposite of

27:29

investment banker, and I became

27:29

a history and music major

27:32

started playing in bands. You

27:32

know, I wouldn't have my kids if

27:37

I hadn't had that wreck because

27:37

I wouldn't have met my wife. So

27:40

in retrospect, that's probably

27:40

the most significant thing that

27:43

ever happened to me good, bad

27:43

and ugly. And it certainly

27:46

colored my whole life since then.

27:48

So a real

27:48

inflection point.

27:52

Oh, absolutely.

27:52

Absolutely. Absolutely. As you

27:55

know, you may have two or three of those moments in your life. Sometimes you recognize in the

27:57

moment, sometimes you don't. But

28:00

looking back, that was

28:00

absolutely an inflection point.

28:03

You grow up really fast at that

28:03

point. Yeah, it was super

28:06

significant. never forgotten it.

28:06

And to some degree or not, you

28:10

know, people asked you have

28:10

regrets this or that? I don't,

28:13

I've done stupid stuff. I've

28:13

done a bunch of stuff. But it's

28:15

all led me to who and where I

28:15

am. And I think it gives me

28:18

empathy for people. I think it

28:18

gives me a perspective to put

28:22

myself in other people's shoes.

28:22

And I think it's part of what

28:24

drives me to want to help other

28:24

people is just that level of

28:28

empathy that came from being

28:28

such an emotional and physical

28:32

wreck at age 17.

28:33

I think you

28:33

grew up you grew up a hard and

28:36

fast at that point like you You

28:36

went through will trauma I mean,

28:39

that's exactly what Rama is

28:39

reshaped? What was the catalyst

28:42

to turn things around to embrace

28:42

the embrace the suck? What was

28:47

the thing that happened to you

28:47

to flip the switch the other

28:50

direction? Because that is 180

28:50

degrees, what you're describing

28:53

180 degrees from the guy that I

28:53

know,

28:56

you know, for me,

28:56

honestly, it was church and

28:59

kids. You know, Jared, I met

28:59

Jennifer my freshman year of

29:02

college proposed three months

29:02

after meeting her and we were

29:06

married eight months after I met

29:06

her. I've never been known to be

29:10

indecisive. That's the one we're

29:10

coming up on 30 years this may

29:14

but I mean, we grew up together

29:14

so we took at least five or six

29:18

years before you decide to have

29:18

a family that's where a lot of a

29:21

hard event and and fun stories

29:21

that sometimes I remember and

29:24

sometimes I don't come from but

29:24

when she was pregnant, something

29:28

about having babies tends to

29:28

make moms to want to go to

29:31

church and I wasn't going to

29:31

find it I'd grown up in the

29:34

church you know, I was my

29:34

grandpa was a preacher for

29:36

goodness sake. You know, I could

29:36

play this game with church had

29:39

changed a lot since I was a kid

29:39

and it was a focus on a

29:43

relationship with Christ. It was

29:43

a focus on you know, forgiveness

29:47

and serving others and love and

29:47

really had to go through a lot

29:50

of counseling and healing to

29:50

learn to love myself before I

29:53

could love others. But that was

29:53

that was the real, you know,

29:55

catalyst that changed who I was

29:55

as a husband as a father. How I

30:00

try to be in the day to day

30:00

life. Again, I go down that

30:04

route a long time people ask,

30:04

and I know that's not what we're

30:07

trying to do. But But for me,

30:07

that was genuinely the

30:10

difference maker. And something

30:10

that continues to make a

30:13

difference, you know, 22 years

30:13

later,

30:16

we don't get to pick the things that shape us. Right? Yeah, they tend to

30:18

happen. I mean, No, you're

30:21

wrong. You choose to sign up in

30:21

the Marine Corps. And they shape

30:25

you right, that there are some

30:25

of those instances. But yeah, by

30:28

and large, it's passive. It's

30:28

not a you know, active

30:31

selection. So So Jennifer, when

30:31

you guys were at Memphis state,

30:35

you meet her. How did you first

30:35

meet her? How did that go down?

30:39

Oh, my goodness

30:39

sakes. She is, first of all,

30:42

just amazing. And she doesn't

30:42

know how to work a podcast, so

30:44

she will never hear this. So I

30:44

say really nice things and not

30:47

be self conscious about it. I

30:47

was at her friend's house. I

30:50

didn't know anyone had mentals

30:50

right. This was a last minute

30:53

decision to go to Memphis state

30:53

because my whole life had just

30:56

gone away in a car crash. And my

30:56

roommate knew a buddy at

30:59

someone's house and we went over

30:59

there. And oh, my goodness, here

31:02

was this beautiful woman who

31:02

knew how to play cards. Playing

31:05

cards is a big thing in my

31:05

family hard spades. You know,

31:08

just okie rummy all the stuff

31:08

you play in a rural setting Lego

31:13

with your grandparents and your

31:13

great hands. She kicked my butt.

31:17

She was so good at cards. And

31:17

you know, we were also making a

31:21

drinking game so I might have

31:21

been a little drunk. By the end

31:23

of the night. She was absolutely

31:23

my hero. Well, turns out a

31:27

roommate had a crush on to her

31:27

both a couple little just let's

31:30

see 18 year old freshman at

31:30

college and we'd lay in our

31:33

bunks. He's like, you're gonna

31:33

ask her out? Yeah, yeah, I'll

31:35

ask her out next night to ask

31:35

her you know, would you mind if

31:38

I ask her out? Yeah, you asked

31:38

her out and we did this for two

31:41

or three weeks, but we read a

31:41

bonfire down on the Mississippi

31:44

River and sidorenko really bad.

31:44

And so is the funniest thing

31:49

right when you're when you're

31:49

least trying to impress someone

31:52

is when you impress them the

31:52

most first story and you may

31:54

have discovered this but I've

31:54

got a little bit of a mother

31:57

hand instinct me as much as I

31:57

like to show Bravo and on this

32:01

wild crazy let's go do stuff

32:01

when the chips are down. I

32:05

typically like to take care of

32:05

people and help so I picked her

32:08

up carrier back with cards over

32:08

Becca campus carry her up for

32:11

three flights of stairs, but I

32:11

sort of thing drove to the

32:13

doctor whole nine yards.

32:13

Literally not trying to be Mr.

32:17

Impressive. And evidently,

32:17

that's when I was Mr.

32:20

Impressive. You really swept off

32:20

her feet. Yeah, well, it helped

32:22

that she fell. But you know, I

32:22

was at least their catcher. And

32:26

then you know, that's when we started you know, actually dating from there. She could see

32:28

me as a as a life partner and

32:31

someone that was the type of

32:31

person that she would want to

32:33

spend her life with. And, you

32:33

know, for me, it was just love

32:36

at first sight. She was she was

32:36

pretty and she would talk to me,

32:39

marry me. You know, I was I was

32:43

all in,

32:44

it seemed off running. She's not

32:46

we actually went through a period specially live in there in Arizona, we just had

32:48

to figure out what that balance

32:51

was, you know, I would get mad

32:51

if she didn't want to go off

32:54

roading with me because I took

32:54

it as her you know, rejecting a

32:57

sporting group of people I loved

32:57

and she would get mad that I

33:00

would want to go off roading

33:00

after working all week and not

33:03

want to spend time with her. And

33:03

again, that's another area where

33:06

some of the stuff they offered through the church, we went through some classes and learned

33:08

to talk to each other and

33:10

realized we were both wrong. So

33:10

she's very supportive of racing

33:15

and going out and off roading.

33:15

You know, it's not her back. And

33:18

so I stopped trying to really

33:18

force her and drop her into that

33:21

and we find stuff that we could

33:21

do together that we enjoy. And

33:24

we got a nice healthy balance,

33:24

you know, for now, I'm sure I

33:27

just changed it. But for right

33:27

now we've got a good good

33:29

healthy balance.

33:30

I swear you

33:30

just described my wife. She

33:33

fully supports all of this, but

33:33

you won't catch her in the dirt.

33:36

She's gone. And she's okay

33:36

without it fully. Can

33:39

you bet. And you know what, it took me a while to be okay with that. Because I'm

33:41

obviously a little bit

33:44

passionate about stuff. And why

33:44

don't you love this as much as I

33:47

love this, you know, I just

33:47

haven't learned that, you know,

33:51

not everyone sees the world the

33:51

same way a different doesn't

33:53

mean wrong. So that was that was

33:53

really cool. took us years to

33:56

get there. But it was really cool.

33:58

So you guys are

33:58

effectively empty nesters right

34:01

now, right?

34:02

Yes, that's I guess I shouldn't be that excited

34:03

about it. But yes. You're still

34:08

in college, but you know, well,

34:08

yes. And no. I mean, I was 22

34:11

years old. And he's got a full

34:11

ride Air Force ROTC scholarship

34:15

to the University of Arkansas.

34:15

Thank you, everyone who's

34:17

listening who pays taxes for

34:17

helping pay for my son's

34:20

education, and he will do his

34:20

best to pay it back and, and

34:24

talk about fishing waters like

34:24

that boy was made for Air Force.

34:27

I was really proud of him and

34:27

the decisions he made in a

34:30

mechanical engineering degree.

34:30

That's why you say 250 or two,

34:33

just a little bit of extra time.

34:33

And you're so qualified for

34:36

pilot at this point. So that's

34:36

his dream is to be a pilot in

34:39

the Air Force. So he's wrapping

34:39

up one phase of his journey and

34:43

about to, you know, this time

34:43

next year, he'll be stationed

34:46

somewhere. So that's

34:46

interesting. And then my

34:49

daughter who's 19, who I freaked

34:49

out last week, I told her, Hey,

34:52

you're almost 20 and she had a

34:52

meltdown over 20 and give it

34:56

time, you know? Talk to me again

34:56

at 40 Which would be awesome

35:00

because that would mean I was at

35:00

so I would be really cool. She

35:03

would talk to me at that, you

35:03

know, she goes to a little

35:06

small, private Christian

35:06

university here up in Northwest

35:08

Arkansas, and she's getting an

35:08

art degree art and illustration,

35:13

which you would think what

35:13

you're paying for an art degree?

35:17

Well, my art my wife's got a

35:17

Bachelor of Fine Arts and

35:19

painting also. So this is my

35:19

second art degree I'm buying.

35:23

And they're both for lovely

35:23

women who love their art

35:27

degrees.

35:28

Well, I had to look it up where she goes to school because it's she goes to

35:30

john Brown University and, and

35:33

everyone knows Myles, you know,

35:33

and then myself, we're from the

35:37

same little town in Kansas, in a

35:37

town near us. Oh, slaughter

35:41

mechanics is known for john

35:41

brown that john Baron gymboree,

35:45

john Brown, I know the history

35:45

of john Brown, burning Kansas

35:48

and all of all of that, that

35:48

happened, you know, around

35:52

slavery around the civil war

35:52

that was john Brown is this, you

35:55

know, this folk hero in our part

35:55

of the world? And so I'm like, I

35:59

didn't know his history. I don't

35:59

feel like he was ever in

36:02

Arkansas. So I had to go look at

36:02

the university they what's the

36:05

history of this? No, it's, uh,

36:05

it was completely a completely

36:08

different john Brown, which

36:08

makes sense. JOHN Brown's two of

36:11

the most common

36:12

Oh, the other john

36:12

Brown. Yeah, no other one. The

36:16

university just celebrated their

36:16

100 year anniversary last year.

36:21

It's run mostly with a

36:21

foundation and gifts from alumni

36:25

and stuff. And it's it's a much

36:25

smaller school experience.

36:28

Again, that's part of what we

36:28

found. We visited lots of

36:31

campuses with both kids and

36:31

neither one was going after a

36:35

particular degree that required

36:35

them to go to a certain school

36:38

for political reasons, right.

36:38

They didn't have to go to

36:40

Harvard to do this or didn't

36:40

have to go to Stanford to do

36:43

that. So we just wanted them to

36:43

be a place where they were

36:46

comfortable. We prayed about it.

36:46

That's where they wanted to be,

36:50

because it was important for them to finish what they committed to and the environment

36:52

has a lot to do with that. Then

36:55

I ruined Ivan. I wanted him to

36:55

be a Razorback. So he grew up a

36:58

Razorback fan, even though he

36:58

lived in Arizona. So that's all

37:00

he wanted to do. But that wasn't

37:00

that wasn't Kate's five, she

37:03

didn't particularly want to go

37:03

to a big school. And she just

37:06

fell in love with a small

37:06

school, small class size, really

37:10

quaint campus. And there's so

37:10

proud as one of the things as

37:14

parents, I know some of the

37:14

people listening, don't have

37:16

kids, some of the people

37:16

listening have younger kids. And

37:19

I'm telling you, it's really

37:19

cool to not only love your kids,

37:22

but to like your kids as well,

37:22

as they become young adults.

37:26

That's one of the most

37:26

flattering thing as a parent to

37:28

look at them and say, Hmm,

37:28

they're actually good people.

37:31

And and I'm proud of that. And

37:31

again, it takes a village, but I

37:35

don't know, just super proud of

37:35

both kids. I think they're doing

37:38

a great job. Yes, that's dad

37:38

talking and I'm biased. That's

37:41

fair. You know, people I've met

37:41

Ivan will back up. You know,

37:44

he's, he's decent. And you know,

37:44

he's more like his mother. I

37:47

kept Kate from everyone because

37:47

she's more like me. And you

37:50

know, no one needs to me's so

37:50

we're good. That's,

37:55

well, are you

37:55

guys, I mean, you're obviously

37:58

Razorback fans. But has he been?

37:58

Go to games now that you're up

38:01

in that part of the world? I know this year has been fun, funky, but Arkansas has been

38:03

playing. Have you made any of

38:06

the games

38:07

yet? This

38:07

technical account is illegal

38:09

record. We got screwed by the

38:09

rest. By the way. We beat

38:11

Auburn. I just want to say right

38:11

now we should be doing more.

38:15

I was just

38:15

about to bring that up, because

38:17

that was one of the best games on last weekend.

38:19

Oh, I'm a lifelong

38:19

Razorback fan. And we've got a

38:22

20 year cycle. We're great in

38:22

the late 60s. We sucked in the

38:25

70s great in the last 80 sucked

38:25

in the 90. So you know we're

38:29

midway through the suck cycle

38:29

again. So it's really nice to

38:32

have coach Sam Pittman and to

38:32

have some hope and competitive

38:37

football team. But yeah, he

38:37

lived on campus, his first two

38:40

years directly across from

38:40

Reynolds Razorback Stadium,

38:42

being in ROTC, he did the color

38:42

guard for most of those fact he

38:47

pulled some strings and got me

38:47

in as accredited media. So if

38:50

anyone asked driving line shot

38:50

at University of Arkansas game

38:53

at one point, I got to get on

38:53

the sidelines. And you know,

38:56

technically I was shooting the

38:56

color guard. But yeah, very

38:59

involved in campus life and has

38:59

done zero data solid and helped

39:03

me be involved in campus life as well.

39:06

Yeah, I don't even have words for that. That's, that's super cool. So

39:07

you have been fully involved up

39:10

there. Well done. Yeah. I love

39:10

it. I want to jump back to a

39:13

Memphis state story. So what

39:13

year did you graduate Memphis

39:16

state

39:17

actually only went

39:17

to Memphis state in 1991. That's

39:20

where I met Jennifer. We both

39:20

couldn't afford out of state

39:23

tuition. So we moved back to

39:23

Arkansas after we got married

39:26

and went to the University of

39:26

Central Arkansas. So I went to

39:28

school there in 1991. But I

39:28

lived there in 94. I lived there

39:32

in 97 and 98. So I've got quite

39:32

a Memphis history.

39:35

You said

39:35

history. How did you end up with

39:38

a history? Major history? How

39:38

does how does one decide that's

39:42

gonna be their passion of study?

39:44

You know, I love

39:44

reading, remembering and

39:46

learning. And history was great

39:46

because not only could you read,

39:51

which again, I just, I've always

39:51

got a book that's why I do on

39:54

planes. I just I really enjoy

39:54

reading. Mostly fiction doesn't

39:58

matter. I just like reading But

39:58

history was also about

40:01

understanding and thinking and

40:01

drawing conclusions. And no, no,

40:05

it was just it was it was

40:05

fascinating to me because you

40:08

could learn from it. And I

40:08

sucked at math. So that was

40:11

about as far away from math as I

40:11

could possibly get. So yeah,

40:15

that was my field of study was

40:15

as a history major.

40:17

That is

40:17

fascinating. I ran away from

40:22

I suck at math, I

40:22

had a math teacher pulled me

40:25

aside, said, Alan, stop trying

40:25

to figure out why math works,

40:28

just use the formula. And that

40:28

was my problem. I was trying to

40:31

figure out why physics worked.

40:31

And I am not wired to figure out

40:35

why physics or calculus or any

40:35

of that stuff works. I just need

40:38

to memorize the formula and go

40:38

on. And that was actually one of

40:41

my first areas to realize, you

40:41

don't have to know everything,

40:45

surround yourself with people

40:45

that are experts in those areas.

40:48

And I learned real quick, I was

40:48

not the math expert. So I have

40:51

always professionally and

40:51

personally surrounded myself

40:54

with people that are better than

40:54

me. I'm never the smartest guy

40:57

in the room, I'm in the wrong

40:57

room. And I learned that in a

40:59

math class.

41:01

Well, I think, you know, along those lines, you know, I almost think that's a

41:03

cliche at this point, the

41:07

smartest guy in the room, you

41:07

know, the whole Enron story on

41:11

that. My belief on that is

41:11

surround yourself with people

41:15

that you aspire to be if your

41:15

dreams are to do whatever x

41:20

surround yourself with people

41:20

that are doing x and are the

41:23

best doing x. Don't be sitting

41:23

here wanting to be an X, but

41:27

you're surrounding yourself with white people.

41:29

So I partially

41:29

agreed for professionally, I

41:32

love to surround myself with

41:32

people that I aspire to be and I

41:36

look for people around me that I

41:36

aspire to be you know, it's I

41:40

almost feel selfish every you're

41:40

a king of hammers, because I get

41:42

paid to have a master class with

41:42

me. You know, Emily Miller is a

41:46

friggin genius. And I get paid

41:46

to learn working with someone I

41:50

aspire to be like, but I also

41:50

like to spend time around

41:53

everybody, you know, you can

41:53

learn something from everybody

41:57

and everyone doesn't have to be

41:57

a mentor or a hero. Everyone's

42:00

got a got a story. So I like to

42:00

just surround myself with

42:03

people. I try to pick and choose

42:03

who I emulate and want to

42:06

follow. I just I just really

42:06

enjoy being around people. Now

42:10

there are some individuals I

42:10

don't enjoy being around people

42:14

in general. I'm just I'm really

42:14

drawn to groups like that.

42:17

Well, I my

42:17

statement on that is I love

42:20

humans. I hate people. That's

42:20

fair. That's kind of where I'm

42:23

at. I like it though. You're I

42:23

love the human race. I love you

42:27

know, there's so many so many

42:27

friends but you know, on a macro

42:30

level, abs a frickin lately on a

42:30

micro level. Oh, man, man, some

42:36

some of these. Some of these

42:36

folks, you know, you just want

42:38

to have their, you know, ask

42:38

them have they had their head

42:41

examined. But then I'm certain

42:41

they're looking directly back at

42:44

me saying and thinking the exact

42:44

same thing. So

42:47

I'm trying really

42:47

hard to figure out why Dave

42:49

wanted to put someone who likes

42:49

people who seems to get along

42:52

with everybody in a

42:52

communication social media

42:55

position. It just seems like a

42:55

real mismatch, you know, for

42:59

personality type in job role.

43:01

Well, Dave

43:01

likes everybody. I mean, he's a

43:04

real people person. That's

43:05

exactly

43:06

the same. Seems

43:06

redundant. So I just always

43:09

asked myself, what would Dave

43:09

do? And that's how I handle

43:11

almost every situation, the

43:11

bridge that you have to cross

43:14

before you get into that mindset

43:14

is he likes you as long as you

43:19

agree with him. If you don't

43:19

agree, we're not giving Dave

43:22

enough credit. You know, I was

43:23

gonna say not

43:23

necessary, not necessarily not

43:25

Yes. We're all people. We all

43:25

like where we're coming from.

43:28

But part of why I'm even at

43:28

ultra for frankly, is I get to

43:33

see a different side of day, I

43:33

get to see something that makes

43:36

it worth my time to be there and

43:36

invest in a sport that I like.

43:40

And a lot of it truly is, you

43:40

know, beyond the blow up on us

43:44

side of things, which has

43:44

actually gotten much better at

43:47

he genuinely cares he'll do

43:47

anything for about anyone. I

43:50

tried to have a conversation

43:50

with him last week where we need

43:53

to talk business he spent 10

43:53

minutes bragging on how awesome

43:56

his daughter's doing playing

43:56

bass guitar you know so that's

43:59

that's the Dave I know and love

43:59

and really enjoy doing stuff

44:02

with with ultra for

44:04

No, I will

44:04

fully back you up on that Dave

44:06

has one of the biggest hearts of

44:06

anyone I know. Yep. There was a

44:08

wreck in Las Vegas a couple of

44:08

races ago, invest in the desert

44:12

and it was a fatality accident.

44:12

There was a truck that got

44:16

totaled and some things it was

44:16

it was all around nasty. Dave

44:19

was trying to get in touch with

44:19

you know, it was an ultra for

44:23

driver who was going to be in

44:23

that race truck and the race

44:26

truck was on the trailer it came

44:26

off and was sitting in the

44:28

middle of the interstate it was

44:28

just all around bad. Dave was

44:32

trying to get a hold of that

44:32

that guy to say hey, I have a

44:35

brand new Ford sitting over

44:35

there and oval ovilus Can you

44:39

all I guess all of his Ford

44:39

they're in Vegas. You're welcome

44:42

to it for all of extra Reno, go

44:42

get the truck use it. And that

44:46

ultimately didn't end up taking

44:46

Dave up on the offer but for do

44:49

to offer up a zero mile f i

44:49

think is an F for 50. Just go

44:54

get it use it for the race and

44:54

we know what how trucks get

44:58

treated on races. They are You

44:58

know, they're they're workhorses

45:01

of the desert, but they get

45:01

lived in for days and it's

45:05

they're not the best well taken

45:05

care of or cared for, it's kind

45:09

of the goal is still get the

45:09

racecar across the line. So,

45:13

again, you know,

45:13

Dave, Dave stave and he'll be

45:15

the first one to tell you Dave

45:15

is Dave, you know, good, bad and

45:19

ugly but you know who he is and

45:19

where you stand and I certainly

45:23

have enjoyed getting to know him

45:23

better. And to see that side of

45:26

him because I just got to see a

45:26

razor side for five years. And

45:30

looking at it from the other end

45:30

I can't believe as calm as he

45:33

is. It is frickin insane the

45:33

week it king of the hammers all

45:36

the demands that's going on everything that could potentially go wrong. So you

45:38

know, a change of perspective

45:42

certainly changed my my view and

45:42

retract a level on that.

45:47

Well, he subscribes to our theory that we've been discussing here it

45:49

even nine in theory, a mantra

45:53

about surrounding yourself with

45:53

the best surround yourself with

45:56

the best and he has done an

45:56

amazing job of you know, from

45:59

Ryan Thomas to JT Taylor, to

45:59

you, to Emily Miller to I mean,

46:05

the list goes on and on and on.

46:05

It is a laundry list of it's an

46:09

all star team.

46:10

It's learning I

46:10

don't know man that JT

46:12

characters kind of sketchy. I

46:12

wonder crap cheese outside my

46:16

window.

46:18

Sorry. Exactly

46:18

with with a fork,

46:20

he knew I was going to say that

46:20

no. And again, that's what I'm

46:23

drawn to, you know, the ultra

46:23

14, but also the drivers the

46:26

ecosystem around it. It's just a

46:26

really cool thing that attracts

46:31

really interesting and smart and

46:31

innovative people. And that is

46:36

very, very attractive to me. So

46:36

again, part of why I love the

46:39

sport and the family and ultra

46:39

for specifically is it really

46:42

attracts quality people zero

46:42

disagreement from this side of

46:45

the microphone. Let's talk about

46:45

Nashville. How on earth and when

46:50

did you end up in Nashville

46:50

doing what you're doing? Because

46:53

I'm gonna let you roll that out.

46:53

You're gonna have to tell us why

46:56

you were in Nashville and for

46:56

four years that you were living

46:59

there. Why? Because I'm I'm

46:59

flipping curious. Just so

47:03

curious at this point. aside,

47:03

I'd never thought I'd say I love

47:07

Nashville. And in fact, until I

47:07

had a love affair with Phoenix,

47:11

that was the favorite place I

47:11

had ever lived antastic town but

47:15

yeah, this was mid 90s everyone

47:15

was getting out of college at

47:17

the time. I played music since

47:17

second grade piano player. You

47:21

play the drum too, right?

47:22

No, no, I play

47:22

guitar and bass but not Trump's

47:25

like program drums. Talk about

47:25

influential Trent Reznor of Nine

47:28

Inch Nails just changed my life

47:28

musically, when I realized I can

47:32

have a band with a laptop, I

47:32

traded a car for a laptop to

47:35

sequence music. And that was in

47:35

Nashville, ironically. But at

47:40

this point, I'm 2223 24 ish. You

47:40

know, everyone's done the

47:44

college thing. My wife's got her

47:44

degree. We don't have a family

47:48

yet. And the band was going

47:48

pretty good. So we decided to

47:51

take a couple of years and move

47:51

to Nashville with the whole rest

47:54

of the band. The band's name was

47:54

Stevens law. We lived in a big

47:57

two story house with a basement.

47:57

You know, we all took night jobs

48:01

so we could practice your in the

48:01

day and not piss the neighbors

48:03

off. And, you know, we made a

48:03

serious run and playing music

48:06

for two or three years and, you

48:06

know, loved it. We were good. We

48:10

were fun. Obviously, it didn't

48:10

pan into a career. But that was

48:13

again one of those things where

48:13

I'm so grateful I got a chance

48:17

to just live that Gypsy life and

48:17

chase that dream and not spend

48:21

my whole life wondering, you

48:21

know, what if, and my wife was

48:24

selling paintings at the time,

48:24

but again, all these things

48:27

working together. My part time

48:27

job was kinkos. I work Sunday

48:30

through Thursday at kinkos. Not

48:30

only can I get free flyers I

48:33

could be off on Friday and

48:33

Saturday to go gigging. But

48:36

that's where I learned

48:36

Macintosh. That's where I

48:38

learned how to use computers.

48:38

And again, skill sets that

48:41

literally pay for a much better

48:41

paying job today was learned

48:45

working at a kinkos in Nashville

48:45

in the mid 90s. So that was a

48:49

blast. We got to travel, got to

48:49

do all our stuff, all the

48:52

standard band things you know, I

48:52

cannot tell you how grateful I

48:56

was to actually celebrate my

48:56

first New Year's Eve and not be

48:59

playing. But yeah, piano players

48:59

a part of me and that was fun to

49:03

let that be the main focus for a

49:03

good 40 years and I still play I

49:07

still play regularly I played in

49:07

church for years we were there

49:10

and in Nashville taught both my

49:10

kids how to play so music is a

49:15

big part of my escape and what I

49:15

do, I love road tripping. You

49:20

know, I drive from Arkansas to

49:20

Johnson Valley every year. Part

49:23

of it is just to listen to tunes

49:23

in the car and see God's country

49:26

and do backroads and stuff like

49:26

that. So very much is a key part

49:31

of who I am and what I am and

49:31

it's all different styles and

49:34

genres. I lived in Memphis and

49:34

Nashville for so long blues has

49:38

ruined me you can put me in

49:38

front of a Hammond B three

49:41

Oregon and start a one four or

49:41

five blues riff and we will

49:44

drink beer and play music for

49:44

the next six hours straight. You

49:47

know you give me a good ZZ Top

49:47

cover band and stuff like that.

49:50

And that's just right in my my

49:50

wheelhouse. But yeah, Nashville

49:54

was fantastic. And towards the

49:54

end of it, we decided it was

49:57

time you know to start a real

49:57

job. So I've been married for

50:01

seven years at that point, and

50:01

Jeff and I were ready to start a

50:03

family and work took me to

50:03

Memphis at the time. And that's

50:07

how we left Nashville. But

50:07

always just one of my favorite

50:10

places and having your memory

50:10

you build something up as kind

50:15

of that golden period. And

50:15

Nashville was kind of my golden

50:18

period. It was mid 20s. Doing

50:18

Stuff You love with people you

50:21

love. pretty magical time. I'm

50:21

sure it wasn't as awesome as my

50:25

memory thinks it is. But

50:25

absolutely one of my favorite

50:29

towns on the face of the planet.

50:30

We have the

50:30

ability to romanticize about

50:33

those things, right. When you

50:33

look back at memories or you

50:35

think back to memories, yeah,

50:35

you definitely romanticize them,

50:38

they get glossy, right? You

50:38

glossy them, you gloss them up a

50:41

little.

50:42

But that's okay.

50:42

No hugging, hugging those warm,

50:45

glossy memories get you through

50:45

some cloudy days, every once in

50:48

a while. And, you know, again,

50:48

you kind of have to have that

50:52

comfort memory to go to because

50:52

as we're all aware, some days,

50:56

you know, suck. But it's just

50:56

always fun to take that trip

51:00

back to you know this or that we

51:00

we actually went back last

51:03

summer our daughter wanted to

51:03

take a trip for she went to her

51:06

freshman year of college and she

51:06

wanted to go to Nashville. she'd

51:09

heard us talk about it her

51:09

entire life. And we went and saw

51:12

the old house. She drink coffee

51:12

at the old coffee house we drank

51:16

at by Bellevue University and it

51:16

was fascinating to experience

51:20

Nashville through my 18 year old

51:20

daughter's eyes as she was going

51:24

to record stores and discovering

51:24

things that we had discovered at

51:28

about her same age, you know, 20

51:28

years before so. I don't know

51:32

still a cool town romanticized

51:32

or not, I always have learned to

51:36

look forward. What's the next

51:36

thing you can't go back. I love

51:39

hanging on and hugging those old

51:39

memories, particularly the the

51:42

warm, shiny ones. And certainly

51:42

Nashville.

51:45

So you guys

51:45

went from Nashville to Memphis

51:47

for work. And then somewhere in

51:47

there, you end up moving to

51:49

Phoenix.

51:50

Yeah, sucked in Little Rock for a little bit too. Like I say, We lived up and

51:52

down. I 40. I'd spent probably

51:56

10 years in retail account

51:56

kinkos like retail, and I was

52:00

out golfing with a buddy from

52:00

church, a guy named Ted clauser.

52:03

And he goes, man, you talk a

52:03

lot. Have you considered sales?

52:06

Like, no, but I do talk a lot.

52:06

And he owned a small computer

52:11

company called PC assistance.

52:11

And they were going to start

52:14

selling this dental software

52:14

called, you know, dentrix. And I

52:17

didn't know anything about software, didn't know anything about sales and barely went to

52:19

the dentist. Sure I man. And

52:23

that, you know, honestly stars.

52:23

That was in the year 2000. That

52:28

started a 20 year career in

52:28

dentistry. That again, no one

52:31

sits down and says, ooh, I want

52:31

to be in dentistry my whole

52:35

life. It you turn around and

52:35

blink and you spent 20 years in

52:38

a certain industry. It's a

52:38

pretty amazing journey. But that

52:42

was the big pivot. And that, you

52:42

know, spent two or three years

52:45

in Arkansas selling software

52:45

there and had an opportunity to

52:48

go into a consulting role to

52:48

apply my business background, my

52:52

computer software development

52:52

background and my sales

52:54

background. Do it as a as a

52:54

business consultant for a firm

52:58

and in Phoenix. So that's how we

52:58

ended up there is we're never

53:02

been out there didn't really

53:02

pick it. But you know, the Lord

53:05

put things on your heart and I

53:05

felt it was the right thing. And

53:08

my wife came to me and felt it

53:08

was the right thing. And we took

53:10

a big step of faith which is a

53:10

story unto itself and literally

53:15

found the next phase of our life

53:15

and where our kids grew up and

53:18

some of the closest people that

53:18

we consider family in our lives.

53:22

You know, Bob McNeely and

53:22

mandra. McLachlan and Michael

53:25

Dobby and others. All came from

53:25

the 12 years we spent in

53:28

Phoenix. My kids consider

53:28

Phoenix home. You know, that's

53:32

what they they grew up. They

53:32

were five and seven when we

53:34

moved so to them. Phoenix was

53:34

home. Oh, wow.

53:38

Yeah, that's a

53:38

I can absolutely see that. So

53:43

well. Let's talk about your role

53:43

today. You're still selling

53:45

dental software, you work for

53:45

Patterson, Patterson dental very

53:49

big, you know, dental company,

53:49

were you with them and Phoenix,

53:52

or were you did they allow you

53:52

to move anywhere?

53:56

Tom, that was kind

53:56

of a funny story. I worked for

53:58

them for four years and Little

53:58

Rock took a different

54:02

opportunity which took me to

54:02

Phoenix, it's still in the

54:04

dental area. In fact, it was

54:04

working with small businesses.

54:08

That's actually part of what got

54:08

me into marketing, working with

54:10

marketing with small businesses,

54:10

such as dentists and, you know,

54:13

developing teams and recruiting

54:13

the right players and doing

54:16

business strategies. And, again,

54:16

my whole working career has been

54:20

like getting paid to go to

54:20

college. It's really, really

54:24

cool. Well, it was so cool that

54:24

Patterson dental bought us seven

54:28

years ago. So suddenly, I was

54:28

the old new guy that came over

54:32

we developed a software called

54:32

on track which was goal setting

54:35

and, and metrics and matrix and

54:35

things where again, you'd set

54:39

goals that measured your

54:39

performance. This is some one of

54:42

the early cloud software's and

54:42

it was it was something that

54:45

they wanted to buy. So I found

54:45

myself back at Patterson but but

54:49

much higher up the food chain at

54:49

that point. So I've been very

54:52

involved in building new

54:52

software living in the cloud

54:54

space. One of the things I'm

54:54

really good at and I don't say

54:58

this, you know, braggy I just

54:58

say And again, knowing your

55:01

strengths and knowing your

55:01

opportunities, I'm good at

55:03

envisioning things I'm good at

55:03

picturing the final product. I

55:07

really like coming up with

55:07

creative solutions. I'm not so

55:11

good at the details between here

55:11

and there. So I got to work with

55:14

a team where I could help dream

55:14

new software, and how do we

55:17

migrate to the cloud? And how do

55:17

we, you know, really make the

55:20

user experience you know, really

55:20

good. And I've been partnered

55:23

with a phenomenal development

55:23

team that's much smarter than me

55:26

that can actually go build that

55:26

stuff. So again, it's kind of a

55:30

weird day job for me. And it's,

55:30

it's funny, there's a whole

55:32

group of people who only know me

55:32

and suits and there's a whole

55:36

group of people who only know me

55:36

and cammo cargo shorts and my

55:40

dusty known persona. But you

55:40

know, they're all different

55:44

parts of me ways to be creative

55:44

ways to make a difference ways

55:47

to impact people. I just love

55:47

the off road part a lot more.

55:52

But the not off road part pays a

55:52

lot better.

55:55

Well, yeah, for

55:55

sure it does. I get a crack up

55:58

out of your, your, your social

55:58

media selfies, you are this king

56:03

of the once I get on the

56:03

airplane, I sit down and take a

56:06

selfie. And for all of us who

56:06

you know, we know you clearly

56:11

have a life outside of off road

56:11

clearly have a life outside of

56:13

ultra for where you're not

56:13

wearing a black flat belt

56:17

flexfit cap not wearing a pair

56:17

of sunglasses, not having a What

56:22

do you call the the the dust

56:22

kind of towel, it's not towel,

56:27

but it's a rag that you wrap

56:27

around your head.

56:29

It's a it's a small, but my

56:29

daughter calls it my off road

56:33

scarf. So it has become known as

56:33

my off road scarf here at the

56:38

house. And you're routinely

56:38

pictured in that so that's so

56:41

when you have this, this image, you know, that's the

56:43

image and that's what's burned

56:47

our head but then you go to

56:47

social media and you see Alan

56:50

sitting on a plane clean to

56:50

clean shaven, no hat no

56:54

sunglasses, no schmuck, you

56:54

know, around you, you know,

56:57

you're you're good.

56:59

And that's half

56:59

the joke. Obviously, I like to

57:01

joke I like to have fun. The

57:01

airplane selfie actually started

57:06

with Michael Dobby and a part of

57:06

the higher ground four by four

57:09

club. Michael hates selfies,

57:09

hates social media, hates self

57:15

absorbed a holes that take

57:15

selfies all the time. So of

57:18

course, my job was to take a

57:18

selfie all the time when I'm in

57:23

an airport or a plane and do it

57:23

in black and white because that

57:26

makes it artsy. And it just kind

57:26

of turned into its own thing. I

57:29

mean, I love that you appreciate

57:29

and get a kick out of that. But

57:32

that's literally the back end of

57:32

a seven year practical joke

57:35

between Michael Dobby and i that

57:35

is one of my favorite things

57:39

about travel.

57:40

The long play.

57:40

That's what that is. That's just

57:42

a long play. It

57:42

is. Hey, just be glad we didn't start with bathroom shots or my social

57:44

media would be a completely

57:47

different animal.

57:50

Yeah, no, I'm

57:50

it right. Okay. I think like,

57:52

like locks would appreciate

57:52

that. Roxy likes her good

57:55

bathroom, she will take pictures

57:55

of bathroom stall doors. That's

57:59

her times

57:59

get I'm scared to

57:59

death of Roxy. So whatever Roxy

58:02

says is right. Amen.

58:04

Yeah, exactly.

58:04

I think that's what most

58:07

everyone else has implemented as

58:07

well with her through all of

58:10

this pandemic, and you know,

58:10

working remotely and zoom calls

58:14

and video calls, which was

58:14

interesting enough that my whole

58:17

setup, I don't know what's going

58:17

on. I've just had a kind of a

58:21

bad run of interviews that the

58:21

interviews have been awesome the

58:24

contents. But it's been, yeah,

58:24

I'm blaming, you know, it's

58:28

just, uh, the equipment I had

58:28

mines to get. It's sometimes

58:32

I'll get it's like the Fae or

58:32

the mind, or it's the Black

58:35

Knights. It's been kind of

58:35

nonstop. I changed microphones

58:38

here recently for this fall. I

58:38

think I'm going to change them

58:42

back. I think I think that's it.

58:42

I messed with. I messed with the

58:45

good thing. And that's like the

58:45

old the ultra four thing, right?

58:48

If it's not broke, don't fix it.

58:48

And I and I, I tinkered. I feel

58:53

like I feel like the world is

58:53

coming apart on that. But where

58:57

I was going with that was, you

58:57

actually put on your

58:59

questionnaire, you had a funny

58:59

story, and I assume is during

59:01

the pandemic, that you're doing

59:01

a zoom call that you're wearing

59:04

your Oh, god, you're wearing

59:09

your dress shirt tie.

59:11

Only, you know,

59:11

I'll set the I'll set the stage

59:14

a little bit here. This was in

59:14

Arizona, when I was younger and

59:17

still cared. And we had just

59:17

built this this new software. So

59:23

there's even bonuses that

59:24

anyone can relate

59:24

this this is I was still a

59:27

junior executive at the time and

59:27

this was back before you know

59:30

Patterson had bought us. And

59:30

this was actually my Big Shot.

59:33

The big bosses were setting up a

59:33

demo with Patterson dental. And

59:37

I was going to get to demo this

59:37

new software on track. So you

59:41

know me, man, I overthink

59:41

everything. I'm like, okay, I

59:43

want to get up early. I want to

59:43

go to the office. I'm more

59:46

comfortable in the office, I'll

59:46

be in my environment. I'm going

59:48

to crush it. And I got up early

59:48

and I made my cup of coffee and

59:52

sat down number cleaner next to

59:52

know the why they can go on and

59:55

he didn't happen to work this

59:55

morning. So I jump up just in a

59:58

panic. I had fallen asleep. In

59:58

the chair, I'm in my drawers.

1:00:01

You know, I spilled coffee all

1:00:01

over me, I've got two minutes to

1:00:04

get set up for this demo. So I

1:00:04

set everything up, nick of time

1:00:08

I login just in time to hear,

1:00:08

you know, our president at the

1:00:12

time, say, Alright, so we're

1:00:12

going to turn it over to Alan to

1:00:14

give the presentation. I walk up

1:00:14

completely lock up the words and

1:00:24

the bands, the pen based on the

1:00:24

band, look at the pretty colors.

1:00:27

I mean, something I spent two

1:00:27

years of my life building I

1:00:29

couldn't even articulate and

1:00:29

just just friggin froze, just

1:00:34

died. But my CEO at the time

1:00:34

recognizes us, you know what,

1:00:38

we're having a little bit of a connection problem, we're going to give Alex a chance to get

1:00:39

reconnected, let me tell you a

1:00:42

story. You know, so he provides

1:00:42

me cover, I step around the

1:00:46

table, trip over the cord, fall

1:00:46

on the floor, catch my laptop

1:00:51

land in the dog bowl, there's

1:00:51

water everywhere, and my wife

1:00:55

comes running around the corner.

1:00:55

And evidently, my face just

1:00:58

said, unemployed because she

1:00:58

starts calling down Jesus and

1:01:02

Moses and Abraham and every

1:01:02

saint known demand and I'm

1:01:06

dropping f bombs left and right.

1:01:06

And then you know, scared I

1:01:09

hadn't unplugged my microphone,

1:01:09

and maybe I was bombing them and

1:01:13

just total complete panic and

1:01:13

get everything set back up. Just

1:01:17

in time to hear Dave say, so

1:01:17

we'll turn it back over to Alan,

1:01:20

then I get a bit Mo Mo. So it is

1:01:20

one of those things. But you

1:01:24

know, just the image of they

1:01:24

didn't know that I'm in my

1:01:28

drawers laying in dog water in

1:01:28

my kitchen in Phoenix about to

1:01:31

have a heart attack because I'm

1:01:31

blowing my shot. That always

1:01:35

stuck with me. So I'm really

1:01:35

enjoying watching everyone learn

1:01:38

how to do zoom and work from

1:01:38

home and be out of their comfort

1:01:41

zone. And I've thoroughly

1:01:41

enjoyed watching other people

1:01:44

have their dog bowl moments

1:01:44

trying to figure out technology.

1:01:48

It's been highly entertaining.

1:01:48

See what goes on. Behind cam if

1:01:52

you will, when people don't know their cameras on.

1:01:54

Or even when

1:01:54

they know the cameras on. It's

1:01:57

it's absolutely ridiculous. Like

1:01:57

I can't tell you how many like

1:02:01

teams meetings I've had. And

1:02:01

last week, you know, just in the

1:02:03

last month, couple months, six

1:02:03

months, eight months. You know,

1:02:06

what are we we're eight months

1:02:06

into this 14 day,

1:02:09

right? Hey, that

1:02:09

that that curve should be

1:02:11

flattened Pretty soon, right?

1:02:11

Oh, yeah. No, I still have

1:02:14

people to this day, especially

1:02:14

now that I'm working for

1:02:17

Paterson network in that

1:02:17

meeting. But every once in a

1:02:20

while, they'll just look at me

1:02:20

and say the plan is the plan

1:02:23

based on the plan. Look at the

1:02:23

pretty colors. Why are you

1:02:26

working for us, you moron and we

1:02:26

all just laugh and have a good

1:02:30

kick out of it. But well, that

1:02:30

was one of the most panic

1:02:33

moments involving technology. I

1:02:33

think I'd ever had no pants dog

1:02:37

bowl doing the biggest

1:02:37

presentation in my life.

1:02:40

Well, I appreciate you telling that story because that's a pretty

1:02:41

that's a pretty bad story.

1:02:44

It's really bad if you visualize because it works

1:02:47

well there there were there was a scene a top young memory burned

1:02:52

don't don't we

1:02:52

don't need to contribute to the

1:02:55

national drinking habit of

1:02:55

people picturing me and tighty

1:02:58

whities so we'll just move right on.

1:03:00

And on that

1:03:00

note so you're in Phoenix and

1:03:03

you started get you get into

1:03:03

offered How did that leap

1:03:05

happen? did was it a Jeep? Was

1:03:05

it a Toyota? Was it a group of

1:03:09

guys was a co workers How did

1:03:09

you end up in that scene? And

1:03:14

how did you end up like running around with like Andrew mcglothlin and that company?

1:03:18

Yeah, you know, I

1:03:18

had a motorcycle when I was

1:03:21

younger but I made the mistake

1:03:21

of it being my daily driver and

1:03:24

you know got hit by a little old

1:03:24

lady and I have a fake knee

1:03:28

wedding so I knew her supposed

1:03:28

to never really be thinking even

1:03:30

though I love and respect them

1:03:30

and I'm super Jared jealous of

1:03:34

Terry and everyone you know in

1:03:34

this motorcycle, you know

1:03:36

culture. It's just it's just not

1:03:36

going to happen for me. But we

1:03:40

moved to Arizona I was flying

1:03:40

most of the time so I didn't

1:03:44

need a great gas mileage car.

1:03:44

The weather was perfect. So I

1:03:48

bought a 91 Tj or 91 y j one

1:03:48

inch body lift 31 prone to

1:03:56

bumper brush are drawn for your

1:03:56

eye with every starter kit you

1:04:00

know Jeep Wrangler out there but

1:04:00

i don't care i loved it I top

1:04:04

took the top off took the doors

1:04:04

off it was a jungle gym for the

1:04:07

kids you know we do such soul

1:04:07

crushing trails is back way to

1:04:11

crown King and think we had

1:04:11

really accomplished something

1:04:15

but what it did was help us fall

1:04:15

in love with a desert fall in

1:04:18

love with the state fall in love

1:04:18

with exploring and through that

1:04:21

I got connected with higher

1:04:21

ground four by four local Jeep

1:04:25

club fact I met them when I was

1:04:25

going to look at buy another

1:04:28

Jeep and you know me I'm a shy

1:04:28

quiet wallflowers nice walk them

1:04:31

started talking to him we all

1:04:31

became buddies and just again

1:04:35

someone absolute best friends

1:04:35

and brothers to this day and

1:04:39

started started Wayland now

1:04:39

Andrew was part of The

1:04:43

Undertaker's Arizona

1:04:43

Undertaker's being bad boy off

1:04:46

road club there in Arizona. You

1:04:46

know high higher ground our our

1:04:50

symbol was the you know, Jesus

1:04:50

lifted off road higher so you

1:04:53

know, we were the Christian boys

1:04:53

you would call to go We'll with

1:04:56

you if you had a hard obstacle

1:04:56

you want to Jesus you know to

1:04:59

we'll with you But our approach

1:04:59

was always one of just be

1:05:02

ourselves. You know, we didn't

1:05:02

beat anyone over the top we were

1:05:05

friends with everybody but they

1:05:05

knew we were Christians and

1:05:08

nobody went to church and that

1:05:08

was kind of our deal and it was

1:05:11

fun ran with Arizona rock grads

1:05:11

back in the day that was really

1:05:15

cool group of people Joe Daro

1:05:15

hackl all those guys I know I'm

1:05:19

dating said all their zone

1:05:19

people but the regrets were a

1:05:21

big influence on me of wanting

1:05:21

to get you know, tons and four

1:05:25

DS and all that type of jazz.

1:05:25

And I did I'd worked my way up I

1:05:29

bought a Jeep it actually turned

1:05:29

out to be toys by Troy's all

1:05:32

this competition, cheap aluminum

1:05:32

everything for you know, Atlas

1:05:36

whole nine yards. I way too much

1:05:36

Jeep for me, I had no idea how

1:05:39

to drive it, but I liked it, you

1:05:39

know, got to be a rock crawler.

1:05:42

Well, that was also coming up on

1:05:42

my 40th birthday. And that was

1:05:47

also when Dave announced this

1:05:47

every man challenge. And I'm not

1:05:51

gonna say it was a midlife

1:05:51

crisis. But who doesn't want to

1:05:54

be a racecar driver?

1:05:55

Absolutely,

1:05:56

everybody. So that

1:05:56

became my 40th birthday resin

1:06:00

myself, this was six months out,

1:06:00

you know, the club's going to

1:06:02

get together, we're going to go

1:06:02

do a Jeep race. It was

1:06:05

everybody's, you know, build the

1:06:05

car in the garage. And Andrew

1:06:08

was on one of the boards and

1:06:08

reached out to me and said, Hey,

1:06:11

I'm racing this year to in the

1:06:11

4400 class, I would like to have

1:06:15

a modified and a stock, would

1:06:15

you you know, I'll help you if

1:06:19

you'll help me. And that's where

1:06:19

I really got to know Andrew and

1:06:22

the West roll off road racing

1:06:22

team and man just immediately

1:06:27

got engaged into a subculture

1:06:27

that I fell in love with you did

1:06:31

a lot of the drive raises early

1:06:31

hours, one of the biggest

1:06:34

influences on me early, because

1:06:34

honestly, if I've got to give

1:06:38

anyone credit for where I'm at

1:06:38

now, in what I'm doing, we were

1:06:42

sitting in a really cheap hotel

1:06:42

in Tucson. She was kind of going

1:06:48

through a driver school meeting

1:06:48

for everyone. She says, All

1:06:50

right, everyone points the

1:06:50

person on your team. That's a

1:06:52

nerd that's always on their

1:06:52

phone. And they all point to me

1:06:55

and started laughing. Right, I

1:06:55

was the immediately identified

1:06:58

nerd on the team. And she says,

1:06:58

that's one of the most important

1:07:02

people on your team. And then

1:07:02

she talked about more and you

1:07:05

know what, Andrew, really

1:07:05

embrace that, you know, even

1:07:08

though I can't Well, I can't

1:07:08

fabricate. I mean, I am just in

1:07:11

all of these people who can take

1:07:11

metal and do worse and harder.

1:07:15

So my inefficient brilliance in

1:07:15

our sport. And again, I'm just

1:07:18

in awe, because I can't do that.

1:07:18

But I can't tell stories and do

1:07:23

to marketing and help put

1:07:23

together sponsors and I speak

1:07:27

marketing. So when we're talking

1:07:27

about impressions and marketing

1:07:30

campaigns, and how we're going

1:07:30

to do this and do that, it

1:07:33

helped me find a place on the

1:07:33

team. And Andrew, besides being

1:07:37

a really good friend helped the

1:07:37

rest of the team value that

1:07:41

role. So that's part of how we

1:07:41

worked with Aesop. That's part

1:07:43

of how we kind of expanded our

1:07:43

out of market. And, you know,

1:07:47

always a lot of fun, everyone's

1:07:47

poking fun at you, they still I

1:07:51

can't even show a wrench on

1:07:51

Facebook without 15 people

1:07:54

reminding me I'm not allowed to

1:07:54

touch tools. But you know,

1:07:57

there's a lot just, you know,

1:07:57

dig in, but that's how I got to

1:08:00

your landlords. That's how I got

1:08:00

to introduce and man it was just

1:08:04

an addiction, you know, went

1:08:04

once and just couldn't believe

1:08:07

it. Went to the next race race

1:08:07

dirt Ryan, you know, big rich

1:08:11

and Shelly for the time period

1:08:11

they were running that Darius

1:08:14

was exactly what it needed to be

1:08:14

for drivers like me and Andrew

1:08:18

to learn how to race learn how

1:08:18

to break our vehicles. It was a

1:08:22

wonderful farm Lee, that you

1:08:22

raced in. You did. And you made

1:08:27

sure racing was for you. And

1:08:27

then you moved up to ultra for.

1:08:30

So it was 2014 I guess before I

1:08:30

started really racing ultra for

1:08:34

so I spent 2012 and 2013 kind of

1:08:34

racing dirt. Right.

1:08:38

So had you been

1:08:38

to a team in the hammers prior

1:08:41

to men in your trophy tears?

1:08:41

1400

1:08:43

Oh, no, no. Yes.

1:08:43

And that and that first year,

1:08:47

that was such a cluster. I know.

1:08:47

We said we couldn't drop other

1:08:50

words. So I'll just say cluster

1:08:50

and everyone can fill in the

1:08:53

blank. That first year the AMC I

1:08:53

think we showed up on Saturday.

1:08:57

we raced on Sunday, most of us

1:08:57

had to be back at work on

1:08:59

Monday. We didn't even get to

1:08:59

see king of the hammers that

1:09:02

year. We had no idea what we

1:09:02

were doing. So I don't feel like

1:09:06

I truly experienced king of the

1:09:06

hammers until 2013. And I'm to

1:09:10

the point now where I can spend

1:09:10

10 or 12 days and it is just

1:09:14

literally the seminal event I

1:09:14

scheduled my whole year around

1:09:17

is my king of the hammers time.

1:09:17

That is the end all be all for

1:09:20

me. But yeah, I shoot I'd never

1:09:20

I didn't even really know what

1:09:23

king of the hammers was other

1:09:23

than, you know, Tony Pellegrino

1:09:26

and Joe Daro talking about it in

1:09:26

the shop every once in a while.

1:09:30

And this was two or three years

1:09:30

in and no one thought of it last

1:09:33

But hey, I didn't care I was

1:09:33

racing. I got to be a racecar

1:09:36

driver. And now look where it is. Right

1:09:38

right. Charlene

1:09:38

is amazing. She's She's also one

1:09:40

of the first people in the scene

1:09:40

in the certainly the California

1:09:43

offered scene that I got to

1:09:43

interact with and you know, she

1:09:46

was involved with Dave brought

1:09:46

her in. Jeff no brought her in,

1:09:51

back in 2009. And I had the

1:09:51

distinct, amazing adventure of

1:09:57

spinning. It was like four or

1:09:57

five days and an hour. With her

1:10:01

and Wayne, Israel Sen and BSI

1:10:01

Wow, that this Lawson brothers,

1:10:06

Adam Woodley. Oh my god. I mean,

1:10:06

I just could start going Chris

1:10:11

poop. I mean, just just a band

1:10:11

Barcroft Johnny, we made

1:10:17

seriously,

1:10:18

I'm so glad that bus didn't crash.

1:10:20

It was a pretty

1:10:20

loaded bus. But yeah, Charlene,

1:10:23

and Wayne, I mean, you can't get

1:10:23

burned up. But yes, she was a,

1:10:26

she's something else. And you

1:10:26

never saw her without a camera

1:10:29

or a camera bag back in back in

1:10:29

those days, and even still

1:10:32

somewhat today, but which is

1:10:32

kind of how when I see you, even

1:10:35

if I see buzzing around you all,

1:10:35

we still have your big camera

1:10:38

with you.

1:10:38

Well, that sound

1:10:38

actually got started. You know,

1:10:41

you do that first year racing.

1:10:41

And you you go to look for your

1:10:45

assets, because you're trying to

1:10:45

make your sponsors happy. You're

1:10:47

trying to build social media

1:10:47

presence. And you know, let's be

1:10:49

honest, that first year racing,

1:10:49

let's roll off road, you know,

1:10:53

we weren't Campbell enterprises,

1:10:53

right? It wasn't like, there

1:10:56

were 50 you know, photographers

1:10:56

out there just looking for our

1:11:00

car, we'd be thrilled if we

1:11:00

could see the corner of a

1:11:03

quarter panel in a passing shot,

1:11:03

you know, and because that was a

1:11:07

need for the team. And I've

1:11:07

always had a creative background

1:11:10

anyway, whether it was with

1:11:10

computers or graphic design, or

1:11:13

music or whatever, that some

1:11:13

some really high quality people,

1:11:17

you know, will Gentile I talked

1:11:17

about already, but Kyle wells,

1:11:21

Doug Denali, Ryan de Du Pont de

1:11:21

I mean, these guys didn't give

1:11:27

me all their secrets, but they

1:11:27

were accepting and open and held

1:11:30

encouraged me, and would share

1:11:30

tips or tricks that I really

1:11:34

watched them to see how race

1:11:34

photographers behaved, how they

1:11:39

work, how they interacted with

1:11:39

teams, and I just loved their

1:11:42

work. And so it gave me

1:11:42

something to to emulate. And

1:11:46

that's what I did, I would go

1:11:46

out and I would I would shoot

1:11:49

our stock class car, I would hop

1:11:49

in my car, I would race a

1:11:52

modified race, I would get out

1:11:52

and I would grab a camera and I

1:11:55

go shoot Andrews 4400 car, just

1:11:55

so we had some content for our

1:11:59

own marketing and then it turned

1:11:59

into you know, hammers week and

1:12:03

I would shoot all the other

1:12:03

races and I can just kind of

1:12:06

work my way up blue collar

1:12:06

through the ranks just like by

1:12:09

putting in work. But even then,

1:12:09

you know, my approach, I knew I

1:12:12

was no, you know, Cowell's, I

1:12:12

would position myself at race

1:12:16

mile three. And I would be mom

1:12:16

and just make sure I got a

1:12:19

picture of everybody, you know,

1:12:19

because some cars don't make it

1:12:22

to race mile for. So that's,

1:12:22

that's how I got to know quite a

1:12:25

few people was just making sure

1:12:25

I took it and just practice rep

1:12:29

after rep after rep and trying

1:12:29

to learn from those around me

1:12:32

and continuing to emulate people

1:12:32

whose work I admire. And it just

1:12:36

it just kind of happened it

1:12:36

became a thing. And then JT

1:12:39

started calling me the the

1:12:39

shutter gnome. And let's be

1:12:43

frank, I'm five, seven, when I

1:12:43

stand up straight, I'm not

1:12:46

exactly you know, pro football

1:12:46

material. So the known parts

1:12:49

stuck. And I'd always tell my