0:00

i'm katie page cov norman

0:02

and we're proud to support the teacher's

0:04

trial podcast for 5

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years having a woman has been a principal sponsor

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of these podcast such

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as the driver shandy story

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and the teacher's piss remind

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proud sponsors of the australians podcast

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investigations and this episode of

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the teacher's trial is made in collaboration with

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their journalist

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before we start a quick warning, this

0:28

podcast is obviously about

0:30

a convicted murderer and we've

0:32

been discussing some distressing content

0:35

there's also some adult language

0:37

in this episode

0:43

the country's most high profile trials

0:45

a is under way more than forty years

0:47

after christos and is accused of murdering

0:50

his wife lynette saying that disposing

0:52

of her body

0:52

the damage from they bayview home in

0:55

nineteen eighty two facility sees

0:57

there was little progress until police

0:59

the decisively extradited to confirm

1:02

planes landing twenty i came to

1:04

the way for fifty the list

1:05

christopher michael dawson says

1:08

he's been waiting for this die happy

1:10

that finally hit on the why now says

1:13

theory that my

1:15

name is headley thomas and i'm and journalist

1:17

with journalist particular interest particular interest

1:19

investigations into the alleged murders

1:21

of women in australia

1:23

this is episode twenty other

1:26

podcasts series the teachers

1:28

trial it's brought to you

1:30

by the australian the trial

1:32

of christopher michael dawson a

1:34

former high school physical education

1:36

teacher for the murder of his wife

1:38

lynne a doting mother of two

1:41

little girls in sydney for decades

1:43

ago you can follow the case

1:45

at the newspapers digital side and

1:48

at the teachers trial dot com dot au

1:52

unclear how the host of the australians

1:54

daily news podcast the front and

1:56

on back and breeze been we the headlights

1:58

homeless many corners

1:59

and david murray to bring you episode

2:02

twenty of the takes his trial

2:04

analyzing in detail the guilty

2:07

verdict on christopher michael within

2:09

will be back in november to bring you

2:12

analysis around the sentencing

2:14

submissions made on behalf of dawson

2:16

and for the crown and to look at the sentence

2:18

that is ultimately given by justice a

2:20

and harrison headley i think we can safely

2:23

assume that crystal

2:24

and will be in prison for a long

2:26

time

2:26

the part of course me south wales has

2:28

no mandatory minimum or maximum

2:30

sentence so justice harrison

2:32

does have quite a lot of freedom to give

2:35

tools and a sentence that he thinks is appropriate

2:37

you would expect it would be a heavy sentence clear

2:40

because for forty years crystals

2:42

and has lied has

2:45

caused a huge amount of pain to

2:47

loved ones of lynn dawson and

2:49

of course raised his two daughters on

2:52

a series of untruths about their mother

2:54

he has lied to police

2:56

repeatedly and cause

2:59

the state to go to huge amount

3:01

of trouble before finally proving

3:03

his skill is difficult to see how that kind

3:05

of conduct would put him

3:07

in a good spice when it comes

3:10

to determining his sentence

3:12

but i'm sure greg well she's going to

3:14

argue that he's in worsening

3:16

health he played a very high standard of football

3:19

know that took a lot of knocks we

3:21

saw him limping he may well have

3:24

come to see the issues as great wells has

3:26

already said

3:27

dr grid walsh has already foreshadowed

3:29

that crystals and hazardous no his

3:31

of dementia how much do think that

3:33

he's gonna

3:34

why into the defense's argument

3:36

for a lesser sentence

3:38

the increase dawson is shown you do whatever

3:40

he came to stay out of prison the

3:43

judge will have to look at this on lot

3:45

of the fact that he can't believe can't word

3:47

that he says he can take adding says with

3:49

says grain of salt sites greg walsh

3:51

medical mom with a whole lot of medical evidence

3:53

supporting that and and the judge will have to assess

3:55

it's but in the end the medical

3:57

facilities in prison sides whether

3:59

that

3:59

really helps him out but i can't see

4:01

that i've been listening back to the the pit

4:04

which we've ray release frustrating audiences

4:06

and it struck me again how much it is a

4:08

story told by the women

4:10

he knew lean the best moments

4:13

at the childcare center in leans

4:15

hi i'm around the family home

4:18

so many women's accounts of what they saw

4:20

and heard at observe and often this

4:22

restoration with lean and

4:24

with the circumstances that she said his healthy

4:26

and that just as a and harrison

4:28

made it pretty clear in his verdict but

4:31

he was not accepting as evidence

4:33

of crystals and skills the claims

4:35

that some of these witnesses made about

4:37

things that lean had told them all

4:40

about bruises that in some instant

4:42

they said that they'd seen on him

4:43

what did you take from that it's

4:46

one part of justice

4:47

harrison's extraordinary document that

4:50

has perplexed me to still since

4:52

the verdict you're absolutely right listening,

4:55

again, to the teacher's pet americold instinctively

4:57

being addicted to

4:59

that podcast to the point where i would be

5:02

holed up in a car park as i explained

5:04

to headley to listen to the end of the episodes

5:06

or so gripping and it was absolutely

5:09

the story of the women this cohort

5:11

of women with extraordinary

5:13

memories this was the glue

5:15

that held the whole story together

5:17

over the arc of forty years

5:20

so when it came to the judgment of

5:22

these women some recollections being

5:25

rejected i remain perplexed about that

5:27

decisions the women as i met them

5:29

through light twenty seventeen early

5:31

twenty eighteen were very

5:33

persuasive in the interviews and i conducted

5:36

with some slits take and grantham

5:38

for example i remember going

5:40

to her house on the northern beaches

5:43

soon after leaving sue stress house

5:45

at ocean grove of a couple of hours

5:47

and aggressive spoke to me about her friendship

5:49

little in dawson but she also disclosed

5:51

some of the things that limb dawson told

5:53

her back in the early nineteen

5:56

eighties when she was working with

5:58

lean at the childcare center one of the accounts

6:00

that came from anna during her interview

6:02

with me realize it to what

6:04

allah says lean told at a about

6:06

crystals and having pushed her face

6:09

into somebody ground

6:11

around the newly built swimming pool

6:13

at bayview and he's judgment justice

6:16

harrison goes to that evidence

6:19

from and grantham because

6:21

she gave it in the trial

6:23

as well and he raises

6:25

the fact that because she had spoken to me

6:28

he didn't want to take that evidence

6:30

into account and ,

6:33

is what he said about that i have some

6:35

doubt that lynette dawson would have related anything

6:37

to miss grantham that was so explicitly critical

6:39

of him him my opinion mr grandson

6:42

has probably been influenced by the events that publicly

6:44

exploded more than three decades after

6:46

length dawson's disappearance it

6:48

disappearance sufficient if sufficient indicate that

6:50

indicate you're not can see them his grandson's evidence

6:53

the be it'll reliable however

6:55

, justice harrison hasn't included

6:58

in his judgment is the fact

7:01

that in september nineteen

7:03

ninety eight

7:05

the grantham

7:06

sigh and a police statement where's

7:08

she makes the same allegations

7:11

about the poolside incident

7:14

involving lind dawson's face

7:16

being pushed into the mud according to what lynn

7:18

had told her i didn't talk to

7:20

have to have until december

7:23

twenty seventeen this

7:25

statement from in a grandson to

7:27

the police is dated september nineteen

7:30

ninety eight and i'll just read to you

7:32

a little bit about what she says about it

7:35

one day whilst i was working with lindsay

7:37

confided in me and told me about her husband

7:39

christopher i don't know how the conversation

7:41

kmart but lynn told me that chris was a very

7:44

aggressive person flynn told me one day

7:46

her and chris had an argument and it resulted

7:48

in chris grabbing lynn by the here and

7:50

forcibly pushing her face down into some

7:52

months that was around the swimming pool that they

7:54

were building at the time or doing

7:57

some work around the sides the pool i

7:59

remember the soil telling really shocked

8:01

me as the story was horrific lynn

8:03

told me that as chris pushed her face

8:05

into the mud she was gasping for

8:07

air linens helping her two children

8:10

witnessed the incident but they were very young

8:12

at the time this incident article

8:14

very well as they were two occasions that

8:16

lynn told me she suffered violence at the house

8:18

at bayview by chris but the story sticks

8:20

in my mind i can't recall

8:22

all of the second story that lynn told me but

8:25

it did involve violence of some sort he's

8:27

how and a grandson put it to headley in

8:29

late twenties seventeen these a

8:31

and is woods in her own voice

8:34

he said

8:35

we have an argument that i'm the food on the

8:37

x and grabbed me by the best my head as

8:41

, and it's to must say some the mud or

8:44

my us oh my god civilian

8:46

hold me down i close my to die

8:49

he was pushing her face into the

8:51

mud around the pool because ,

8:53

said i i just for not brace

8:56

ourselves justice harrison is

8:58

mindful of the publicity this attended

9:00

publicity the tories case however

9:03

the publicity really

9:05

only happened as a

9:07

result of the first inquest

9:09

in two thousand and one and events subsequent

9:12

this statement by the grantham is dated ninety

9:14

ninety eight three years before there

9:17

is really any publicity i'm

9:19

inclined to disagree respectfully

9:22

with is on his decision making

9:24

in relation to these alleged

9:26

ties into violence involving lynn dawson

9:29

because i believe these women are telling the truth

9:31

does a net leary fall into the same

9:33

kind of categories of leeway see

9:35

has

9:36

oh the trial that

9:38

then spoke to add to die that she

9:40

was murdered about chris

9:43

putting his hands on that's

9:45

right on the way up to see the counselor and

9:48

leaving bruises they're not to was

9:50

also been rejected by the judge

9:52

had a net leary also given evidence

9:55

prior to that publicity in two thousand

9:57

and one and it leary statement is dated

9:59

to

9:59

those and and

10:02

again that some seventeen years before

10:04

i spoke to knit leary she describes being

10:06

they when am a grandson asks

10:09

lynn about , counseling

10:11

and then hearing the answer

10:13

of lean about the hands around the thrive however

10:17

in her subsequent evidence

10:21

seems to remove and a grandson

10:24

from the actual incident the

10:26

other problem the judge rises is

10:28

that it was unlikely for bruises

10:30

to appear on leans neck

10:32

in such a short period of time

10:35

after the counseling session which

10:37

we understand occurred shortly after lunch

10:40

on friday the eighth of january

10:42

the last day in

10:44

lived in summary i'm

10:46

unable to accept the version given by miss

10:48

leery of the incident the incident list as

10:51

reliable the

10:53

timing of the visit to the marriage counselor does

10:55

not fit with muslim or his recollection that the

10:57

incident was somewhere between ten i'm and lunchtime

10:59

secondly but in a related sense even

11:02

, the incident could notionally be placed at two

11:04

pm the likelihood that bruising would have developed

11:06

in such a short space of time is small that

11:09

active strangulation of

11:12

restricting someone's airways that

11:14

is really exerting that's all to

11:16

air controllers them you have the power of lot

11:19

either them so that was occurred

11:21

just hours before he vanishes

11:24

was really striking piece of evidence the

11:26

other thing that stood out about that from during the

11:28

trial was when judging harrison

11:31

stop for my money said well he could look

11:33

at this from the other perspective that

11:35

could have been a reason is this did happen

11:38

for lane to have walked out the following day

11:40

and not come home any put

11:42

that appalling david civil what

11:44

he position and then and she said well we

11:46

decide to didn't happen here and

11:48

similarly the phrase if this doesn't

11:50

work i'm getting rid of you in the context

11:52

of going to marriage counseling could simply main

11:54

uses doesn't work i'm divorcing you

11:57

it doesn't mean getting rid of

12:00

as in murdering you necessarily

12:03

to be fair the crystals and it does have that

12:06

alternative meaning as we go through the judgment

12:08

and we reflect on the evidence of

12:10

so many witnesses who

12:12

talked about the black eyes

12:15

significant bruising on legs

12:18

the fingermarks that were described by

12:20

julie andrews leans neighbor as

12:22

well as other childcare center

12:25

whoop colleagues of windows and are

12:27

they all wrong do they all manufacture

12:30

this accounts or

12:33

is it probable that linda olson was

12:35

being violently assaulted

12:38

before she was murdered his crystals

12:40

and as the judge has found

12:43

is guilty of the violin murder

12:45

of his wife why is it a stretch

12:48

the believe the accounts of women he

12:51

says that she was being assaulted

12:53

by the same person this

12:56

weeks and months before she was

12:58

mooted one of the reasons

13:00

justice harrison gives in order

13:03

to reject a net larry's

13:05

evidence the recollection is that

13:07

chris and clean after the marriage

13:09

counseling session were

13:11

observed returning to the childcare center

13:14

holding hands now the first

13:16

time first heard that it's stuck

13:18

in the back of my mind my mind trial and

13:20

it reemerged over and over again

13:22

as a consistent motif particularly

13:25

from the defense is witnesses to

13:27

this and the holding hands comes all

13:29

the way through the trial and beyond so

13:31

it interest me that he did reject that because it's

13:33

stuck in my mind is one of this perennial

13:36

images through the trial to

13:38

me why can't you see more time easily

13:40

have them holding hands and leaned

13:42

being hopeful that a marriage can

13:44

be repaired and tenths of arts

13:46

and also her recounting what had happened in

13:48

going up to see the council a bite

13:51

as i things to make would still exists together

13:53

to me it's a perfectly plausible picture

13:55

of a master gaslight out of control

13:58

and manipulate us and

13:59

very naive and loving

14:02

and kind woman the we know in was

14:04

you know she wanted to believe that he loved

14:06

her that he was going to change this

14:08

is the classic story of a abusive

14:10

relationships is a blow up then

14:13

there's apologies and cheese then

14:15

is a honeymoon period all those things

14:17

can be encompassed in a bad relationship

14:20

so the judge rejected the evidence

14:22

of the breathing on lean

14:24

and said that he was not going to consider that

14:26

as part of his judgment he also

14:28

said something really interesting about

14:30

beat let site known bruising

14:33

evidence raised by women around

14:35

lean let's hear what justice harrison said

14:39

it , also in my view be unfair to me to

14:41

listen to utilize evidence suggests he

14:43

told his mother-in-law the limit

14:45

[unk] she'd get back into the bloody kitchen where

14:47

she belongs all that he flicked

14:49

her with a tea towel or criticized

14:51

her for the state of the glass with her awning

14:54

or the the saying hurtful also acoustics

14:56

a songs about her or

14:58

even that he aggressively argued with hobart

15:00

the trampoline somehow to reason

15:03

is conduct proves that he had a tendency

15:05

that supports were enhances the strength of the

15:07

conclusion that he killed his well the

15:09

evidence is not satisfy me that mr dawson

15:11

caused any of the bruising said about various

15:13

witnesses to have been observed the on

15:15

dawson dawson my view speculation

15:17

that mr dawson may have done so in a particular

15:20

occasion remain speculation which is therefore

15:22

easy to easy combining

15:24

several similarly speculative propositions

15:27

does not change that i

15:29

accept what justice harrison he sang their

15:31

that he's not accepting nice as tendency

15:33

evidence in each legal definition

15:35

that is not accepting it as

15:37

actually proof of creases kinda

15:40

the to be violent or tendency to have

15:42

an animus towards lean and there for evidence

15:45

that he might have killed her do

15:47

you think all of that evidence does seat

15:49

teacher is perfectly plausible of

15:52

what we know about the increasingly north

15:54

and relationships and

15:55

that ease abuse individually

15:58

those episodes might

15:59

the interview fucking someone with it a towel

16:02

or seeing a sarcastic song but

16:04

abdullah your point about coach dave

16:06

and how we now know as

16:08

an episode of choking is a very sinister

16:11

precursor of a person's violent

16:13

tendencies or think

16:15

we also know that contemptuous

16:18

and controlling behavior is also

16:21

is also size is also interesting

16:23

to know the judges comments when it came to die

16:25

see how did he treats i see and he

16:27

picked up on the controls and the

16:29

instances of violence against i see

16:32

is what justice and harrison

16:33

said about that he didn't read

16:36

this are on that day is so with

16:38

the a voice actor to rate it for you

16:42

i am also satisfied that

16:44

mr dawson be time as

16:46

a direct function of his infatuation

16:49

with j c increasingly

16:51

jealous of any interest that may have

16:53

been shown in her by other boys

16:56

such as p s or ah hates

16:58

i am satisfied that vast

17:01

attitude remained in place

17:03

until after lynette dawson's disappearance

17:06

and although not directly

17:08

related to the question of his guilt

17:11

remained manifest after the marriage

17:14

has supported by jaycees evidence

17:17

of he's controlling behavior when i moved

17:19

to live in queensland for

17:21

example the g string incident

17:24

and the evidence from j see that

17:26

mr dawson even monitored the places

17:29

she went the girl friends with

17:31

whom she mixed the style of

17:33

clothes that she was there's

17:36

, the evidence from jai say that

17:38

on the day of her waiting in january

17:40

nine eighty four christos and

17:42

put his hands around her throat

17:45

and started to choke her i

17:47

take you then to then day you will married

17:50

apart from the ceremony and the

17:52

associated social activity what

17:54

happens that day

17:56

after all the people believing all

17:58

the guests around the driveway and everyone

18:00

had disappeared and he

18:02

turned to me and grabbed me

18:05

about the neck with his hands with

18:07

his two hands and ,

18:09

don't know why that happened and

18:11

it was frightening

18:14

the no good reason

18:15

that episode that she described

18:18

seem to have come from nowhere to her

18:20

then there were these other times when our

18:22

married where he got very

18:24

upset because she'd gone out and bought and

18:26

district and he ripped it off her

18:29

lol on let's try to your point

18:31

about choking or strange

18:32

relation there was a pay twenty twenty

18:34

one by the australian institute

18:36

of criminology it's about how

18:39

violent relationships escalate or

18:41

the time it points out that the behaviors most

18:43

commonly discussed in the literature

18:45

about violence that escalates over time

18:47

unknown size was strangulation also

18:50

referred to as choking or throttling and

18:52

intimate partner homicide what the papacy

18:54

three saying is that if you've got a propensity

18:57

to strangle or charge your partner

19:00

you've got a propensity to kill your partner

19:02

and here we have a strong fit football

19:04

up and evidence that he's put his hands

19:06

around the throat of his was just

19:08

a foresees vanished and then from

19:10

his second wife of also putting his

19:12

hands around it's right unexpectedly for

19:15

no reason

19:16

and abusive language she

19:18

was a victim as as as intimate

19:20

partner violence in my the justice harrison

19:23

does make the point that in relation

19:25

to what

19:26

italy mcnally who was the baby

19:28

sitter before jc

19:30

when in witnessed in the home

19:33

and , was the so

19:35

called flicking when bev spoke to me about

19:37

it she called it weeping with the tea

19:39

towel as well as chris roughly

19:42

pushing lynn dawson into

19:44

dawson door frame both incidents

19:47

going to bed that caused limb

19:49

pain and cosby have to be concerned

19:51

for her welfare the judge

19:53

says he accepts those incidents

19:55

occurred however he doesn't

19:58

put them as highly as bed the

20:00

as in terms of them constituting

20:02

domestic violence and in some of those accounts

20:04

those women have said that lynn

20:07

told them that chris dawson

20:10

that her such as

20:12

within the grantham a we also have an account

20:14

which the judge never saw that comes

20:16

from la ryan watson the owner

20:18

of the bridleway a shop in

20:20

the city who told police

20:23

in fact damien lane and then

20:25

several years later told me

20:28

that lynn dawson said

20:30

she live with a very violent man in

20:33

the end it's perhaps doesn't matter

20:35

he was found guilty on other

20:37

evidence but i think

20:39

they will be for some time a

20:41

device amongst people who understand

20:44

how domestic violence escalates as

20:46

, the judges reasoning here

20:49

and effective exclusion of

20:51

all of these incidents incidents

20:53

his ruling if you like that crystals

20:55

and was not violent to his

20:57

wife until he killed her

21:00

i mean the notion that you are this

21:02

placid harmless husband until

21:05

you murder you're wise seems

21:07

to me a bit wrong headed but he likes

21:09

of the people can snap and be otherwise gentle

21:12

i just don't accept chris was gentle

21:14

until he killed lean lean that such a great

21:16

point and i want to put myself in

21:18

the shoes of our listeners

21:21

and for people that witness the trial

21:23

the court or online the

21:26

, by all of these

21:28

different women lined up beside each

21:30

other about the bruising about

21:32

incidents of violence over years

21:35

it build an incredibly compelling

21:38

picture certainly to my mind thinking this

21:41

now makes sense in terms of

21:43

lynn's ultimate disappearance and this

21:45

however it was rejected

21:48

so again i'm trying to get

21:50

a simple understanding of

21:52

was an incredible compelling

21:55

granular picture of violence

21:58

was pushed aside this verdict

21:59

well i wonder if justice harrison

22:02

knew where he was going by the time

22:04

he was writing this judgment he knew that it was

22:06

enough for him to his sound that crease allied

22:09

so comprehensively and and that

22:11

was evidence of creases consciousness of gills

22:13

and therefore he was trying to you

22:16

priests these judgments by

22:18

excluding this evidence from

22:21

the women so that he could not be accused

22:23

by crystals and defense counsel ethan

22:25

when ethan appeal happens of

22:28

having accepted that tittle

22:30

tattle of women as evidence of the murder

22:33

that might be too cynical interpretation by name

22:35

it definitely does make it harder for crystals

22:37

and to appeal this

22:39

one group of things again

22:41

that he can't challenge when he does eventually

22:43

appeal to , one point that

22:46

we've been discussing the doesn't necessarily

22:48

have to be a build up of physical violence

22:50

leading to a fatality i'm

22:52

thinking overhand o'clock overhand woman who was

22:55

set on fire in her car

22:57

with her three little children by her

22:59

husband and her family has talked

23:01

family lot about the fact that they weren't

23:03

aware of any physical violence

23:05

leading up to her made us i'm also

23:07

thinking of alison bite and try bite woman

23:10

who was murdered by her husband

23:12

in brisbane and dumped under and bridge

23:15

and again there was no known history

23:17

of physical violence shady blackburn

23:20

she was not to our knowledge

23:22

subject of any violence by

23:24

john para os she was viciously

23:26

mooted after splitting up with john pair

23:29

us she was found not guilty of her murder

23:31

a car and subsequently found that

23:33

he savagely stabbed her to death

23:35

sandy was the victim of her we see cohesive

23:37

control end an adhesive language

23:40

she was as she eaten as intimate partner violence

23:42

in monday's

23:43

and if about are evolving understanding

23:45

of what the island ethan what abuse

23:47

ease pretty chilly in a domestic

23:50

contests mean personally i think

23:52

freaking someone with it a town see sarcastic

23:54

song about them if they not consenting

23:57

to the

23:57

the receive were absolutely on the

24:00

image clays or just

24:02

a good one to rise the points and

24:04

let's play exactly

24:07

how beverly mcnally described

24:09

it when i spoke to her for the very

24:11

first time so they had been no

24:13

discussion between her and i before this

24:16

interview very early in

24:18

the teacher's pet series and

24:21

she described that tea towel insists

24:23

i actually saw him hit her once

24:27

with a towel and towel and

24:29

of the south on three separate

24:31

occasions basically he

24:33

was obviously day

24:35

they were anything at a place

24:37

it would probably won't see me like

24:39

a slick did i literally whip to within

24:41

was he also went to win

24:43

image and pepper my tried

24:46

to cover it up because i didn't realize dollars actually

24:48

working in

24:49

how much are covered up vocabulary

24:52

side and she tried to pretend she was trying

24:54

to think it's think it's have

24:56

club he upset it

24:59

where was she whipped with

25:01

her back behind said they

25:03

see if she had her back to him

25:05

putting a graph in the topic was

25:07

a library to drama class the jedi

25:10

glove

25:11

black eyed side was probably the

25:13

words made her cry rather

25:15

than the actual couch and on

25:17

a spit it was just a sec three

25:19

be sure to

25:20

i'd return to glass what about

25:22

the answers

25:25

one of because they drains and

25:27

it was in the door

25:28

he basically shop tear into the right

25:31

i didn't want me to say

25:35

don't have returning to the stage

25:37

as well , a little bit troubled by

25:39

is that it has been somewhat

25:42

diminished by calling it calling switching

25:44

tea towel tea flicking tea towel

25:46

could beat something quite trivial really

25:49

not something of great moment if you are maliciously

25:51

using maliciously tea towel a tea

25:53

someone on the bare skin of their back

25:56

when they don't know it's coming that has

25:58

a very different

25:59

labour has been troubling to see

26:02

how that incident

26:04

has gone from when that was described

26:06

to me sending quite alarming

26:08

and nasty and certainly

26:10

was nasty to the witness to something

26:13

that is accepted to have happened but was to sort

26:15

of like a little sleep that

26:17

that has been troubling to watch the why

26:19

the has progressed through the evidence

26:21

and the trial

26:22

another interesting point i thought about

26:24

they've is that she described that incidents

26:27

headley in the teacher's pet and then also

26:29

said that see believe looking back that

26:31

crease was essentially grooming her petro

26:34

conversation met we had in the last episode

26:37

which was about the judge rejecting

26:39

the idea that crystal some would

26:41

have taken j say to say a

26:43

potential hitman that he would have exposed

26:45

himself like that to this for double impressionable

26:48

teenage girl i

26:51

think easy was prepared to let

26:53

girl who he was thinking about having sex

26:55

we though he was trying to a p attractive

26:58

to if he would let him see her

27:00

abuse is why seen that way

27:02

what

27:03

you've been prepared to do i think it's totally plausible

27:05

that he he he was winning it all hang out or

27:08

have been thinking a lot in the previous

27:10

week's about bev mcnally's evidence nj

27:12

sees evidence in terms of

27:14

alleged abuse by dawson committed

27:17

hunter against his wife in the presence

27:19

of these teenagers and

27:21

, thought on one hand was

27:24

he emboldened for

27:27

example sing sarcastic songs

27:29

about his was in front of jc

27:32

merely as a males who has returned

27:35

, and in some tall sense because he's

27:37

tried to show off incentives

27:39

this potential new new

27:42

in his last has he become the teenage

27:44

boy obsessed with the teenage

27:47

female as we saw with the trolley boy

27:49

the paper boy that sort of return

27:52

to a form of immaturity simply

27:55

by being immaturity simply orbit and

27:57

possibly and best mcnally's orbit

28:00

in order to either so off

28:02

as i said or reveals something about his

28:04

alpha male hood in front

28:06

of these young people

28:08

i think if these that it had gone the other

28:10

way i would be ceilings are heated about this

28:12

particular us rejection of evidence

28:14

by justice harrison he got there any

28:16

and so it seems a little

28:18

bit nitpicky to tear apart

28:21

what he sang about these things but ah i

28:23

do think it's worth discussing and personally

28:25

i don't boy

28:27

the excuses are comments about out this

28:29

was a different era this was a different context

28:32

or in terms of domestic violence and

28:34

people not wanting to gossip over

28:36

the fence about other people's personal

28:39

business business what this goes to the heart

28:41

of is christopher dawson's

28:43

brilliance as an

28:45

illusionist in the way that he for example

28:48

made himself appear this golden shining

28:51

night up for the sims family i mean how

28:53

he totally convinced them that

28:55

he was described husband and loving father

28:57

and and for years after lynch

29:00

disappearance they still had face in this

29:02

manner me to think it goes to the heart of his extraordinary

29:04

ability to be willed of people

29:07

in his life that's part of the obese

29:09

man isn't it seducing her mother

29:12

and everyone else around his who might

29:15

have stepped into helplines the

29:17

isolated her i mean it's the classic

29:19

divide and conquer is not patching guns

29:21

and her mother helena also notice

29:23

loons bruises and pat told me that her

29:26

mother said are well she must have a special

29:28

type of blood that causes the bruises

29:30

to appear more readily on that point

29:32

that you raised headley about the dressmaker who witnessed

29:34

the bruises and he said my husband's very violent

29:36

man

29:37

wasn't that actually an upside three of

29:40

the teacher's pet a was but unfortunately

29:43

lorraine watson died

29:45

during the trial as i believe that her health

29:47

had worsened in the preceding

29:49

years such that she was unable to

29:51

give any evidence says it's

29:54

highly probable that even her

29:56

police statement given to damien learn

29:58

years earlier didn't come for the

30:00

judge but he would have heard her

30:02

evidence in episode three which

30:04

he says he listened to they see their defense

30:07

we may sound as if we're being a bit one side

30:09

is about the judge in relation

30:11

to his assessment of all this evidence

30:13

of alleged domestic violence

30:15

is it's quite possible that this goes

30:17

to justice harrison's

30:19

inherent sanders to

30:21

crystals and he has bend over backwards

30:24

to be fair to the accused

30:27

to not take what he regards as

30:29

and he uses this would a lot frail

30:32

accounts of things was

30:35

seen that without a direct connection

30:38

to pay hello

30:40

of physical act and he's done that

30:43

without hesitation in excluding

30:45

a lot of the evidence while also

30:47

slowing crystals and for murder

30:49

are you are you saying headley and i

30:51

have the utmost respect for justice harrison

30:54

and as a said earlier he got there in the end but

30:56

it does strike me that he is accepted

30:58

the evidence of the men and rejected the evidence

31:01

of the women i don't

31:03

really understand why

31:06

when friends recounting

31:08

saying bruises on leans keen

31:10

and recalling conversations

31:13

will lead directly said my

31:15

husband is violence

31:17

happy tipped is particularly

31:19

when those accounts

31:21

the

31:23

when two years prior

31:25

to their being the publicity generated

31:28

by the teacher's pet podcast series

31:30

one of the women

31:31

harrison couldn't knock down was

31:33

julie enter and i

31:35

vividly remember her cause she was the first witness

31:38

but witness still have that picture of her on the back of

31:40

my mind feisty totally

31:42

up for the challenge undeterred by

31:44

pulling david's relentless probing

31:47

of her a very a very

31:50

and strong figure and character

31:52

in this whole drama and a wonderful woman

31:54

who has been staunch

31:57

throughout and no doubt

31:59

has been divided for lot

32:01

of the is because solve the guilt

32:04

shame that she felt for not having

32:06

come forward many many

32:08

years ago despite her

32:11

suspicions the a certain

32:13

day at the time that chris dawson

32:16

had killed his wife lynne jewish

32:18

friend

32:27

the teachers trial is made possible by

32:29

subscribers to the a stray and and

32:31

by our principal sponsor harvey norman

32:33

or over five years harvey

32:35

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32:37

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32:43

of the trial now is only made possible

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with the support of our subscribers and

32:48

our partnership with women

32:58

some important people who work in the

33:00

in spot crystals and act several

33:02

years headley work when siblings

33:05

in nineteen ninety greg sims

33:07

with his wife marilyn met

33:10

j c i went to a neutral location

33:13

north , sydney and

33:15

they were introduced by woman called pam

33:17

exit pam make food new jersey

33:20

new jaycees family and organize

33:22

this matings because jc wanted

33:24

to tell lind dawson's brother

33:27

brother craig's wife craig's

33:30

what see suspected had happened

33:33

to greg system lynn from that point

33:35

on they were pennies dropping everywhere

33:37

for the same family so the previous eight

33:39

years they had not been suspicious

33:42

of crystals and now

33:44

though a hearing from crystals and second was

33:46

saying that see suspected he had killed his

33:48

verse was however in the murder trial

33:50

greg in maryland accordance with judge

33:53

don't emphasize

33:56

that point sufficiently

33:58

to persuade him that

34:01

the hitman incident was actually realize

34:03

advise i say and he relies on that

34:05

to effectively rule

34:07

out that the hitman incident occurred it's

34:10

really hard when you're a witness because you basically

34:13

told just answer the question that you're given

34:15

and so on the spot uma not remember

34:18

to say something when you're answering a question

34:20

and in the moments past and you're answering the next

34:22

question possibly that's what's happened here

34:24

let's hear how justice harrison dealt

34:27

with greg and maryland's evidence

34:29

in so far as their

34:31

saia to rise the hitman incident

34:35

even , businesses indicated that she told

34:37

gregory and maryland seems about it it

34:40

seems does not refer to these evidence

34:42

in chief although he did agree and

34:44

cross examination that had a crony

34:47

or increased he said that she

34:49

did tell him that mr dawson had

34:51

said he was going to hire a hitman but

34:53

it changed his mind maryland

34:56

seems similarly only mentions it and

34:58

prompted to do so in cross examinations

35:01

nellis listen to what they told me and

35:03

twenty seven team member was sitting team member home

35:05

near newcastle

35:07

and as the discussion went on that

35:09

day i just took a look at greg

35:11

and he this just he just kept going was rainwater

35:14

lighter and i think good of a

35:16

realization was really study to hit with him

35:18

or

35:19

lynn really

35:20

he needed any back none of the

35:22

it's a nation was given to us

35:24

in his entity session and it was just

35:26

telling a story she was

35:29

was scissors frightened the

35:31

had gone to a women's refuge

35:34

in fear of her life at her daughter's life

35:36

she , queens and on

35:39

on access to the under the guise of going

35:42

down to see her parents and had

35:44

the family car

35:45

com

35:47

the she she tried to make this was she had

35:49

let her skates

35:50

because she told us that she was recognizing

35:53

things happening in her relationship that she

35:56

witnessed happening

35:57

between christmas and mean

36:00

the other problem is that reagan

36:03

maryland along with a number of other people

36:06

were interviewed in the original police

36:08

investigation in nineteen ninety ninety

36:10

one this is the investigation that jc

36:12

triggered when she returned

36:15

to sydney having list is very unhappy

36:17

marriage with crystal sense

36:19

that investigations files

36:22

all the witness statements that were taken

36:24

from greg and maryland

36:26

and pat just disappeared

36:29

so whatever greg in maryland the had

36:32

said in this statement about what jc

36:34

had already told them bullet vanished

36:36

and it wasn't able to be produced what's

36:38

the judge has been able to rely on is what has

36:40

survived and unfortunately

36:43

for crystals and but very fortunately

36:45

for justice one

36:48

document that survived was chris

36:50

dawson's video taped interview

36:53

with police from that

36:55

original investigation in nineteen

36:58

ninety one you have to wonder whether

37:00

crystals and would be nail sitting

37:03

in prison if he

37:05

had not consented to that

37:07

interview which was duly transcribed

37:10

by damien lane when he

37:12

finally was out to get his hands on the

37:14

cassette

37:16

the witnesses who's evidence justice harrison

37:18

was prepared to accept holy were

37:21

the trolley boy the paper boy were

37:23

calling them p s and our

37:25

rights are you been

37:27

particularly struck by their evidence

37:29

during the trial you had been yourself

37:31

a paper boy i think i , like

37:33

the trolley boy have them i had this

37:35

brilliant idea that i couldn't instead of pushing thirty

37:38

i could have my time and sixty together

37:40

and i had of speed mobile off the top of

37:42

it smashed into smashed suffered

37:44

in the were person that's the story of

37:46

the paper boy and the trolley boy yes

37:49

and i write these stories

37:51

this evidence exposed

37:53

dawson who is in his thirties

37:56

at this point again returning

37:58

to that state of it's in age mind

38:01

know grown man would behave

38:03

like this towards these

38:05

boys it's simply almost unthinkable

38:08

so what was driving him toward

38:11

this unthinkable behavior

38:14

it again goes to and amplified

38:16

jealousy have any other

38:19

males that might show interest

38:21

or be in the vicinity of his

38:23

target to i say is a very quick

38:25

recap of those two witnesses the

38:27

trolley boy p s fancied guy see

38:29

crystals and came in pushed him up against

38:31

a wall and threatening basically said stylize

38:34

and hi to another school

38:36

boy from crime a high schools

38:39

was basically also interested in guy seats

38:42

went to his mentor christos and asked

38:44

him what he should do dawson

38:47

ends

38:48

basically becoming the blocker next

38:50

thing r h knows he sees jc

38:52

sitting on the orphans lap at

38:54

school in his office said these ease

38:56

very appealing evidence for

38:59

a judge these are not accounts

39:01

by someone who said that somebody told

39:03

and something these are real

39:05

direct accounts of creek the orphans behavior

39:08

by people who in the judges estimation

39:11

have no reason to have made it up

39:13

in fact the judge [unk]

39:15

the actively rejects

39:16

defense suggestion that ps

39:18

had in any way embellished his story

39:20

forehead least manifests he comments

39:22

on the fact that headley un p s

39:25

were having a jocular conversation

39:27

during your interviews the

39:29

judges perfectly happy to accept that

39:31

this would have been an incident that shocked as

39:34

sixteen year old boy and stuck in his memory yeah

39:36

i mean i can remember quite clearly when they were actually

39:39

giving the evidence

39:40

the trial itself i got

39:42

a since the justice harrison

39:45

was fully appreciating

39:48

what had happened and the impact it had head

39:50

on nice to now grown men

39:52

i mean to paraphrase it from justice house and about

39:55

being consistent with human

39:57

behavior these two instances of

39:59

aggression

39:59

the towards our teenage boys

40:02

they would never have forgotten that moments

40:04

ever is something that would have been burnt

40:07

into their memories and thus

40:09

the has led them into the witness box and image

40:11

of the judge really went out of his way

40:14

to make it clear that he holy accepted

40:16

the accounts of leans

40:17

family and greg in maryland seems

40:20

of pet jenkins and of course the

40:22

door

40:22

series of helena scenes the

40:24

judge seemed very much taken by

40:27

those diaries as outstanding

40:29

contemporaneous evidence just

40:31

, agreed with the suggestion that it was his

40:34

view that mr dawson was guilty of killing his

40:36

wife wife mr seems denied

40:38

that his views had been a will be tainted

40:40

or influenced by anything arising

40:43

out of the of mr

40:45

sims a great that he considered mr dawson

40:47

to be the answer to his sister's disappearance

40:49

but he denied he would lie to achieve the outcome

40:51

he hoped outcome occur on

40:54

observed mr seems very closely and the witness

40:57

box is the witness vs evidence a

40:59

he presented as a clause in gentle

41:01

man he was not easily ruffled

41:04

in the final analysis he's evidence of

41:06

significance is limited to his recollection

41:08

of them's the dawson's venomous

41:11

of about learning dawson and

41:13

the occasion going to that person's belongings

41:15

return to to family home in cavalli

41:18

despite his involvement with headley thomas and his

41:20

podcast mr seem as measured responses

41:22

to all questions ask if im convinced me

41:25

that he's evidence is truthful a luck

41:27

with her husband a mrs

41:29

seems was quite often measured she was not cross

41:31

examined to the point where in my view any

41:33

of her evidence became doubtful i

41:35

consider the museum's evidence can be accepted

41:37

without qualification the

41:41

nature of the relationship between mr dawson

41:43

housewife helena seems

41:45

was also never interviewed but her contribution

41:47

has been somewhat extraordinarily documented

41:50

in her prolific diaries and let

41:52

us give what might be characterized as

41:54

characterized real time commentary on events a seat

41:56

to save them at the time they have been received

41:59

as evidence in

41:59

this trial as well

42:02

that's what he told about the scene family

42:04

that he was a low

42:05

more critical of the dolphin family or

42:07

to start with

42:08

roy hodgson pays chris dawson's

42:10

brother in law he said that he soul in

42:12

has he was driving down the road and she

42:14

was standing there at a bus stops the

42:17

judges said this is a lie

42:19

down the story was fabricated he said regrettably

42:21

also found that the story backing

42:23

up that claim by chris his sister lynette

42:26

option was also not truthful

42:29

ross hudson had only told the police

42:31

about this reported citing

42:34

shortly after christos and was arrested

42:36

he's what the judge had to say about this

42:38

crowd contends

42:40

the accounts given by ross

42:42

option and net hutch and are false

42:45

i'm satisfied beyond reasonable doubt

42:48

that mr hutchins account the police

42:50

in two thousand and nineteen is

42:52

falls to the extent that he saw them at door

42:54

so glad soon as he alleges and

42:57

, falls to the extent that he told

42:59

that to the police in the nineteen ninety

43:01

nine cromer interview by two

43:03

thousand and nineteen is not well before

43:05

mr hutton was aware that mr dawson

43:07

was presenting himself to

43:10

the world as i deserted husband had no

43:12

knowledge of his wife's side it

43:15

flies in the face of human experience

43:17

that mr hudson would not have gone what he

43:19

had seen to the attention of the police investigating

43:22

the net dawson as a missing person when

43:25

you must have known he had information

43:27

that could assist the security

43:29

so many years later when his professed

43:32

concerned for her presumed desire

43:34

for privacy would have been expected

43:36

to recede in the face of police

43:38

concern for her whereabouts i

43:41

have regrettably phones same view concerning

43:43

mrs hudson see evidence that she heard her

43:45

husband tell the police in nineteen ninety

43:47

nine about the glades will citing i

43:50

appreciate that the day she gave her

43:52

evidence in this cold mr hutton

43:55

had only recently died however

43:58

i'm entirely unable to accept mrs

44:00

hudson would not have told her brother

44:02

said her husband had just that very

44:04

day inform the police that he had

44:06

seen one it dawson alive and well as glaze

44:09

will is and in my view

44:11

when she was or must have been

44:13

aware of it's significance to the inquiring

44:15

police of the time

44:17

i was very disturbing

44:20

feature of the judgment because

44:22

you have a situation where chris

44:25

dawson sibling his sister

44:27

who lived on the northern beaches at that

44:29

time and her

44:31

husband the deceased

44:34

found to have deliberately misled

44:36

this process

44:38

you left wondering

44:39

with a misleading the process just out

44:42

of love for chris

44:44

who they believe was being wrongfully

44:46

accused of a terrible crime or

44:49

was it something more sinister than that than

44:51

that were suspicious that he had

44:53

indeed to blend dawson they

44:56

wanted to ensure that that

45:00

would not take the family name on

45:02

, level it may just be an

45:04

act of sibling loyalty on another level

45:07

is it a more organized attempted scheme

45:10

to try to come up with a

45:12

plausible explanation that

45:14

would have lindell seen alive when in

45:16

fact she had been dead since

45:19

around january i know january to just

45:21

a go to headley point whether it was loyalty

45:24

to loyalty sibling or whatever this

45:26

formed a part of the beginning of justice

45:29

harrison's unpicking of

45:32

the infrastructure of the lies

45:34

that dawson had surrounded himself with for

45:36

forty years my young son

45:38

his ten was playing that great game

45:41

perennial of the tower you build

45:43

with a wooden blocks jenga

45:45

and was watching him play with

45:48

his sister the other day trying

45:50

to pull that one block out

45:51

and ultimately the whole thing collapses

45:54

in on itself that was justice harrison

45:57

each lie removed was a block pulled

45:59

out

45:59

that's how i did enjoy justice harrison's

46:02

sideswipe of pay to do with in

46:04

the elder brother the lawyer out the one he set

46:06

by criticized throughout the trial when

46:09

he was recounting people's accounts

46:11

of linda

46:12

and as a person and as a mother

46:14

the

46:14

said

46:16

when with universally praised as a one

46:18

for loving caring mother except

46:20

by paid a dose and who described hit nearly

46:23

as competent contrary to pay to dawson's

46:25

evidence that he had not given his

46:27

brother chris advice that he

46:29

should stay in the family home

46:32

unless you wanted to surrender most of it

46:34

in the event of a separation

46:37

the judge found that pays adelson

46:39

did actually impart

46:41

advice to crystals and other

46:44

that wouldn't have been a controversial thing pay

46:46

the dawson was the lawyer in the family

46:48

crystals was clearly planning a new

46:51

life with a teenager which would have meant divorce

46:53

from li in school been completely

46:56

reasonable for him to get free

46:59

informal , from his older brother

47:02

about what the financial consequences might

47:04

be but then but

47:07

decided in the end that crystals

47:09

and motives for killing

47:11

lean to don't include him wanting to

47:13

have it all financially he

47:16

ends up ruling house the idea

47:18

that crystal sons motive

47:21

in part was financials and

47:23

he came to that view because

47:26

according to just as harrison crystals

47:28

his action in attempting

47:31

to start a new life with j see

47:33

that ill sizes drive north

47:35

queensland showed that he was

47:37

prepared to leave it all behind i did struggle

47:39

with that because there was indications

47:42

throughout the trial in the evidence from witnesses

47:44

etc about almost a and

47:46

ingrained my salinas when it

47:48

came to dawson and his attitude to monday

47:50

however if the financial

47:54

motive is withdrawn it

47:56

brings into sharp focus the

47:58

focus the that

47:59

the it was obsessed

48:02

with this woman personally that

48:05

, would do anything to protect

48:07

that obsession obsession that he was

48:09

so laser focused on

48:12

j c being up at south miss rocks and

48:14

potentially he could lose

48:17

this prize this think that once

48:19

you get rid of the financial destruction of actually

48:21

makes that motives of

48:23

even stronger yes amazes

48:25

behavior around money is just one

48:28

plank of the set

48:30

of behaviors the behaviors

48:33

controlling individual in a decent

48:35

someone who had a school girl sitting on his knee

48:37

in the office at the school and had

48:39

somehow wielded he's magic

48:41

over the rest of the teachers and none none of them said anything

48:44

he took her to the fools a very purpose lynn's

48:46

rings into the wedding

48:48

ring foods i see he

48:50

refused to pay for

48:52

the drawings of his own daughters

48:54

that lynn had organized for she suddenly

48:57

vanished money's clearly important

48:59

to restore since i certainly

49:01

could not rule that out as a motive in

49:03

addition to his pursuit of jc in

49:06

the end reason in my view crystals

49:09

and killed live with his bare hands is because

49:11

he didn't want to pay money to

49:14

a hit man to do this job are

49:16

we talking about the doors and clan and what

49:18

the just what about the evidence of chris his family

49:21

it just makes me think of paul dawson and

49:23

his conversations with chris

49:26

that were intercepted by police

49:28

we talked about these calls throughout the series but

49:31

to me the

49:33

same so scripted these two brothers

49:35

were in lockstep this wasn't a natural

49:37

conversation they repeatedly

49:39

acknowledged that they believe that they

49:41

were being recorded it

49:44

was almost like day we're not

49:46

talking to each other it was

49:48

only six hour talking to another audience

49:51

the future that they knew that this

49:53

could one day land in a court

49:55

just like it did was chris been charged

49:57

with leans murder and then all

49:59

of their that they were making then become

50:01

public these weren't private conversations

50:04

to me these are things that they wanted to come out

50:06

seem particularly their attacks on

50:08

leans family on the investigator

50:10

who had spent years

50:13

trying to put chris before a jury damien

50:15

lane duchess another interesting

50:17

aspect of those and clan

50:19

and how they work

50:20

what would seem the devil philly pleased

50:22

with the cliff a little act day because

50:24

quit his own lawyer

50:25

him to dive into fits we wouldn't have heard them

50:28

if it wasn't for pulling david hindering them but

50:30

they kick some own goals in those anyway

50:32

i mean you had in the conversation

50:35

with crystals and system and it's such and

50:37

what seems to be a slip it's here that

50:39

now where she refers to her

50:42

brother as crystals and while she's

50:44

talking to him

50:46

the have heard her

50:49

are there

50:51

eating up on earth didn't

50:53

both in the period

51:02

no

51:08

that

51:10

however they do an endless

51:13

another slip crystals and refers to the

51:15

fact that he was in touch with lee and six

51:18

weeks after she disappeared not

51:20

disappeared couple of weeks and

51:22

the judge caesar's on that

51:25

and relies upon it as again

51:27

as an example of crystal sons

51:29

inability to come up with

51:32

the truth cause he has

51:34

woven this tapestry of lies

51:36

he can't remember the truth and when he

51:38

discloses to gary the

51:40

he was still in touch with liam six weeks after

51:42

she disappeared that's such a

51:45

radical departure from

51:47

the actual evidence early

51:49

on ended

51:51

by the defense he

51:54

could you couldn't but you couldn't support opposing bc

51:57

while you still had contact with the lawsuit

51:59

that we've been for like six

52:02

right weeks when i decided

52:04

that important anymore contractors

52:06

were falling police advice or

52:08

reported missing

52:11

nobody talking to your decided

52:13

that much every couple weeks whatever you

52:15

know reported missing so

52:17

much discussion to your remember through

52:19

the trial about the damage

52:22

that the passage of time has

52:25

, to people's memories

52:27

to the availability of witnesses at such a bullet

52:29

actually didn't work in crystal

52:31

since favor either i mean it's that

52:33

he had to uphold a lie

52:36

for forty years and they

52:38

will fault it's along the way which is is

52:41

we had the verdict as a boss thing

52:44

is as intercepts net lead disappointed that

52:46

just in the try d who you are quite taken

52:48

least during the trial didn't get again seen

52:50

it as i was very very disappointed in fact i think

52:52

it was dave that might have suggested to me that

52:54

he was an undercover police officer which he makes

52:56

the whole scenario even more fascinating

52:59

but i'm just wondering if he is an actual try d

53:02

what he thinks now of his bomb well

53:04

as andy warhol said rural famous for fifteen

53:06

minutes so i'd love to meet him actually

53:09

and give him a job in such as my plumbing the

53:11

to do re doing

53:20

this podcast is made possible by subscribers

53:23

true the astray him and by a principal

53:25

sponsor harvey norman

53:27

the right five years harvey norman has

53:29

been a key partner in the australians

53:31

investigative podcast such as the

53:34

night driver sandy story

53:36

and the teacher's pet the a stray

53:38

and coverage of this trial is only

53:40

made possible with the support of our

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subscribers and our partnership

53:45

with harvey norman

53:55

headley during the recording of the teachers

53:57

trial one of the things that i think is kept

54:00

oh fine has been the moments where we've been

54:02

able to laugh even though this is such a tragic

54:04

case we've been able to make jokes

54:06

with each other and and and have some like hot and moments

54:09

you had those moments of course with the people

54:11

who you interviewed for the teacher's pet podcast

54:14

and some of those will try to the cause

54:16

the judge made some remarks about that

54:19

how would you respond to what the judges said

54:21

as he just asean harrison was

54:23

very fair minded for the most part

54:26

in the way the described those

54:28

conversations as lighthearted

54:30

banter apparently facetious

54:33

and

54:34

you could humid back and forth

54:36

between myself and some

54:38

of the people i was interviewing and ,

54:40

he is referring to directly is

54:42

just this chit chat till i would have had

54:45

with pets incomes and maryland

54:47

seems with ps the trolley

54:49

boy with perfect

54:51

daily and with julie andrews

54:53

as well as stays

54:55

quiet light in the podcast

54:57

series that is after

55:00

at least episodes

55:03

in twenty i dame when we were being

55:05

inundated with unsolicited

55:08

contacts from studios

55:11

in hollywood and in london wanting

55:13

to talk to us about turning

55:16

this tragic story into a tv series

55:18

i had very little time to be dealing

55:21

with the podcast series and the ongoing

55:23

investigation little investigation all these contacts

55:25

so contacts come here but as but as

55:27

starter as a bit of an icebreaker we

55:30

would just occasionally have a bit of banter

55:32

ballad in the course

55:34

of conversations with some of the interviewees

55:36

and these were interview ways i had been

55:38

speaking to for many months previously

55:41

served the interest of a film studio

55:43

in the story had no bearing

55:45

whatsoever and what they had already told me

55:47

it couldn't have because we didn't even know

55:49

if anybody would listen to the podcast

55:51

series when i first started talking to them little line

55:54

have it attract international interest

55:56

from a film studios but

55:58

of course i understand that the and wants to make

56:01

a mountain out of a molehill were tend

56:03

to really try to maximize

56:05

the impact of that and cried this

56:08

perception that people spoke to me because they were

56:10

potentially dazzled by the idea

56:12

of walking the red carpet and so on from

56:14

where i stood nothing could be further from the truth

56:16

is and it was a bit cringe

56:19

listening to some of that being replied

56:21

and then recounted let's see how justice

56:24

in harrison dealt with that with one witness

56:27

she was cross examined by reference to series

56:29

of was coded interaction see head

56:32

with headley thomas

56:33

it is apparent that she became closely involved

56:35

in his examination of the subject matter of the

56:38

podcast references , the

56:40

course of her conversations with headley

56:42

thomas albeit apparently facetious

56:44

and lighthearted to actors who might

56:46

play the roles of relevant individuals going to cinematic

56:49

adaptation of dramatization of his

56:51

podcast podcast hinting these

56:53

hinting it not serve to

56:55

fill me with an overwhelming impression of objectivity

56:57

or confidence in most mcnally's evidence

57:01

the reason these reply to the court is

57:03

that defend for appalling david with trying

57:05

to argue that you had

57:07

essentially dazzle base paypal that

57:10

that some of these witnesses were fabricating

57:12

or elaborating the evidence

57:15

to impress you or because

57:17

they're envisaging themselves hanging out with

57:19

chris hemsworth

57:20

i'm like the judgment that had been

57:22

given after the stay application in

57:25

twenty twenty by justice for listen

57:27

which unfortunately had a number of sexual

57:29

errors it , to me

57:31

to be over the top and

57:34

just completely unnecessary

57:36

in it's stridency and

57:38

it's attack on the media

57:40

but particularly on me just

57:43

to see and harrison to the much more measured

57:45

and balanced approach very mine to

57:47

corners had found in two thousand and one

57:50

and two thousand and three that linda

57:52

olson died and i both

57:54

recommended the known to us and

57:56

that was crystals and be prosecuted

57:59

for murder note that

58:02

finding that she died on that died

58:04

is obviously completely

58:06

inconsistent with crystals and version

58:09

of the truth the teacher's pet took a front

58:11

for a prize but after thirty

58:13

six years of failure by the criminal

58:16

justice system that what do you think it is

58:18

about the story in particular that's

58:20

captivated people's attention all

58:22

around the world it's inescapable this

58:24

case has touched millions

58:27

of people around the world but

58:30

, when you step back from the

58:32

narrative it becomes more obvious

58:35

it's a very simple story

58:37

it it's a story of

58:41

the urban living young mother fluid

58:44

parents , to make a go of their lives

58:46

building a house interacting with their families

58:49

this is everybody story it

58:51

is our story and the experiences

58:55

that were eliminated most certainly in

58:58

the trial a , experiences

59:00

for most australians australians

59:02

and people around the world so i think it's

59:05

very nature of it's simplicity

59:07

i read very early in the some of that

59:10

this , uniquely

59:12

remarkable suburban drama

59:15

and

59:16

that's all of us a city you a

59:18

leafy times that i think there's some alchemy

59:20

in nice like theories in all great

59:23

storytelling that finds it's mine and

59:25

it's the combination of the story

59:27

and all those things that you've just mentioned matt

59:30

but it was also the right time for the story

59:32

to be told the world was

59:34

beginning to go through what we now call

59:37

me to we were beginning

59:39

a new understanding of the

59:41

meaning of interactions largely

59:44

between men and women people were

59:46

looking back all over the world at

59:48

the past relationships and sinking

59:50

again about moments when the past

59:53

we saying parliament's reconsider

59:55

issues like consent we

59:57

could control family violence

1:00:00

we are about to go into a national conversation

1:00:03

about sexual assault i think all

1:00:05

of those things helped to captivate the

1:00:07

world on the story and alba element

1:00:09

headley with your voice that was part of

1:00:11

the alchemy to a your lovely

1:00:13

relax riley and voice telling

1:00:16

these remarkable story we can't

1:00:18

measure

1:00:20

the legacy windows in this left

1:00:22

behind when the story finally

1:00:24

being told in such granular

1:00:26

detail in the trial and with the verdict

1:00:28

and beyond her message to millions

1:00:30

of people particularly women but men

1:00:32

of course as well is that we need to

1:00:35

have serious discussions around domestic

1:00:38

violence we need to see open

1:00:40

with each other we need to look at our relationships

1:00:42

and our friends relationships we need to keep

1:00:44

our eyes wide open sea

1:00:46

has opened the door to discussions

1:00:49

right around the world about these

1:00:51

very common semen

1:00:53

moments early i know you've been

1:00:56

reading the judgment a lot over the past

1:00:58

few weeks and you've just finished one of your rounds

1:01:00

of rewriting this morning what stood out for

1:01:02

you

1:01:03

paragraph three hundred and twenty six of

1:01:05

the judgment clay this is

1:01:07

how just to see and harrison put it

1:01:12

lynette dawson's relationship with

1:01:14

her daughter's is a most compelling

1:01:16

body of evidence in support of a rejection

1:01:19

of the hypothesis that she might

1:01:21

possibly have abandoned them on

1:01:24

one view lynette dawson had

1:01:26

a reason to leave her

1:01:28

marriage was over however

1:01:31

that simple fact assuming

1:01:33

for the sake of argument for that the net dose

1:01:35

and save and accepted it to be so

1:01:38

must , accommodate the counterbalancing

1:01:40

factors that in summary suggests

1:01:43

the net awesome a sign

1:01:45

intelligent and determined woman i'm

1:01:48

her husband's car on a saturday

1:01:51

morning with little with a

1:01:53

close that she was how

1:01:55

rationally having chosen to evaporate

1:01:57

forever sleeping in

1:01:59

the only and unnoticed into an uncertain

1:02:02

future with nothing and no one

1:02:05

it is tried to observe that it is possible

1:02:08

she did so these not

1:02:10

to my mind a reasonable possibility

1:02:14

to maintain the cleaner thorson might possibly

1:02:16

have a bandit everything that she knew

1:02:19

his to substitute what is reasonably

1:02:21

possible with frail speculation

1:02:25

to paraphrase the crown submission the proposition

1:02:28

is ludicrous

1:02:30

he now from one of our

1:02:32

eve explaining in her own voice

1:02:34

what it means to her

1:02:36

headley clear david

1:02:38

msg think ,

1:02:40

will for the teachers pets and the teachers

1:02:42

trial as , i've

1:02:45

always so cared for as he shifted

1:02:47

awesome long in this extraordinary story

1:02:49

of lean i

1:02:51

too was in court on the day of the verdict

1:02:54

i don't have any connection except

1:02:56

that i sold a deep need to show up saline

1:02:59

i clean my day says around two

1:03:01

pm had to take my husband

1:03:04

to see if he could pick up as and go

1:03:06

as i could not leave i got to call

1:03:08

it around eight thirty and

1:03:10

had no idea what to do ways you guys

1:03:13

that faked it until i made it a

1:03:15

managed to enter the court building get

1:03:17

three

1:03:18

security and locate the courtroom

1:03:20

it was the first time i'd put your faces

1:03:23

to your voice stay on

1:03:25

seeing and hearing clear hearing

1:03:27

thought to myself these are

1:03:29

her words and this is her voice

1:03:32

inside joke i know

1:03:33

that you are oh now

1:03:35

plate me recognizable by your voices

1:03:38

the dawson family walked in with greg walsh

1:03:41

student email and continued on

1:03:43

with their conversation i

1:03:45

felt like a fly on the wall great

1:03:47

walsh was telling them to not

1:03:49

respond not react because that is

1:03:51

just what the media wanted them to do

1:03:54

it's advice that must have been prompted by the scuffle

1:03:57

outside quite unexpectedly

1:03:59

though the come upon seeing crease and hold

1:04:03

their looks i lost and frail

1:04:05

the thing about them being surrounded

1:04:07

by friends and family reminded

1:04:09

me as a funeral it really hit home

1:04:12

that every character in the podcast is

1:04:14

real seen tamerlane

1:04:16

and grabbing myself grabbing pink face mask

1:04:19

reminded me why was there it

1:04:21

was amazing to made a young couple he flew

1:04:23

to sydney said the day to day in court

1:04:25

before heading back to brisbane that evening

1:04:28

i found a seat in the bank the court room

1:04:30

right besides sub long term observers

1:04:33

one of whom a dane in court for lynn's

1:04:35

crony or anything in the early

1:04:37

two thousands justice ,

1:04:40

is an amazing story teller i

1:04:43

enjoy

1:04:43

the rollercoaster ride he took us all on

1:04:46

i , notes to try and stop my head

1:04:48

from exploding on still coming

1:04:50

to terms with my reaction to the verdict

1:04:53

this at last he was a

1:04:55

feeling of the lights and i actually kissed

1:04:57

strangers thin by the time other

1:05:00

macquarie straight i burst into

1:05:02

uncontrollable heaving crying

1:05:04

i guess that is the power the podcast

1:05:07

the power of the caring and the power

1:05:09

of justice think you all

1:05:11

nicole

1:05:20

the teachers trial podcast is written

1:05:22

in part and presented by me

1:05:24

headley thomas with assistance and contributions

1:05:27

from my