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1:00

conditions apply. I just wanted to talk to

1:02

you today about a way that you can help support the

1:04

podcast if you're not already. We

1:06

would really appreciate it if you guys went and

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reviewed us on Apple or Spotify. Those reviews really

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check us out at patreon.com. Special Operations. over

2:01

at the

2:05

team house with

2:07

your hope jack burke

2:11

David Park welcome

2:17

to episode 268 of the

2:19

team house I'm Jack here with Dave and

2:22

our guest on tonight show is

2:24

Melvin Downs who served

2:26

in the British military starting as a

2:28

boy soldier at age 16 went

2:31

all the way up and retired as a

2:33

sergeant major in the Special Air Service we're

2:36

really excited to have him

2:38

on the show tonight you

2:41

guys can find him on

2:43

instagram at Melvin Downs that's

2:46

NELBYNDOWNES go check him out

2:48

and you'll find links in the description to

2:50

his Instagram and also his YouTube channel that's

2:52

gonna be popping probably next

2:54

week the day if

2:57

you want to work we just well

2:59

first off welcome Melvin we really appreciate

3:01

you being here thanks

3:04

Jack thanks Dave thanks team house and

3:06

it's great to be able

3:08

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3:10

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5:11

Melvin, I want to jump right into it and

5:14

ask you about your origins and kind

5:16

of your upbringing, how you came to

5:18

be, what your upbringing as a kid

5:21

was like, and how that sort of

5:23

propelled you towards military service. Yeah,

5:25

sure. Well, to

5:28

start with, my dad, he came from Jamaica

5:30

in the early 50s, 1952, from the Windrush era. And

5:37

he came to rebuild the UK after

5:40

the Second World War. And

5:42

then he met my mom and

5:45

met her in Stoke-on-Trent. Now,

5:47

if you don't know about the UK,

5:50

Stoke-on-Trent, it's in the Midlands. It's in the heart

5:52

of the country. And

5:54

at that time, especially in Stoke-on-Trent,

5:58

the area where my dad settled. because he went down

6:01

the pits being a minor. An

6:03

area he settled in was an

6:05

area called Benteley. Now Benteley

6:07

was a large council housing estate which I

6:10

think is a bit like the projects over

6:12

your way but it was a brand new

6:14

one. It was a massive estate. Actually

6:16

when it first got

6:18

built in the 50s it was the

6:20

largest in Europe.

6:23

It was massive but the difference was in

6:25

this estate it was just mainly

6:27

white working class because this is

6:30

back in the 50s and he met my mom and

6:34

their parents at that time didn't

6:36

like the idea of a

6:38

black guy going out a Jamaican black guy going out

6:40

with a white girl and they were both young very

6:42

very young so she left home

6:44

and they just went and made

6:47

their way anyway. My dad worked

6:49

hard he settled in this estate

6:52

and that's where I was brought up and Benteley

6:54

council housing estate but what

6:56

was the, well not a problem

6:58

but what I was looked at

7:01

is different because there was literally

7:03

an handful of black

7:05

people on that estate and

7:07

there was something like 11-12,000 people on

7:09

that estate and it was mainly

7:11

white working class minors and you know wild working

7:13

people and so the area he settled

7:17

there was a lot especially you know I

7:19

was born in 64 so by the time I

7:21

got there it was 67. I can remember it.

7:25

There was a lot of racial tension back in them days

7:28

so I had a lot of bullying

7:30

a lot of hard

7:32

knocks growing up and so did

7:34

my dad. We got the house vehicles, we had

7:36

petitions, people didn't want to there. I think it

7:39

was just a totally different time and a different

7:41

era you know. However

7:43

I just

7:45

I'm thankful that the positive was it made

7:48

me the person the right person because I

7:50

literally going to school in my year there

7:52

was like one other well

7:55

and the entire school there's one other black guy

7:57

and an Asian girl. That's

8:00

not what it was a case of. For me, very young age,

8:03

I was bullied and I had to

8:05

fight back, and my dad told me fight back. But

8:08

apart from that, it was just that time. And

8:12

I made the best friends there. And the way

8:14

I look at it, if it was the other

8:16

way round, if it was just a couple of

8:19

white guys or a

8:21

mixed race family living in a large

8:24

black area, it'd be exactly the same.

8:26

You get picked on until people

8:28

knew who you were. And

8:30

then my dad especially is a really

8:35

respectful person, but he'd also stand up for

8:37

himself. So even he,

8:39

he'd fight his battles and he'd

8:42

be proud and all that. So

8:45

growing up was quite difficult. But

8:47

like I said, it made me the person I am.

8:49

And I made really good friends there. I'm not knocking

8:51

the place. I still love the area. It was just

8:53

a total deaf interior. And the way I look at it, if

8:56

you go back 30 years from

8:58

then or whatever, you know, women didn't even have the vote,

9:00

I don't think, you know, and

9:02

let alone gay people being

9:05

welcomed in anyway and so

9:07

on. So it was just a different time and

9:09

a different place. But as I've heard

9:11

so growing up, it was

9:14

quite difficult. But you had

9:16

to learn to fight and look after yourself.

9:18

And basically that was it. Or you just

9:20

get bullied and trodden on. Anyway,

9:23

I always want to go in the military

9:25

because the Jamaicans, they love the Queen and

9:27

it was the motherland. That's what they called,

9:29

you know, the Calavians. And they used to

9:31

make me stand up whenever the

9:34

national anthem was on TV. And

9:37

then I'd be watching all the troops in their colors. And

9:39

from a very young age, I just loved anything to do

9:41

with the military. So that was it. I

9:43

was hooked on it. So 11 years old, I joined

9:46

what was known as the Army Cadet. It's a bit

9:48

like the Scouts. You

9:51

fire weapons as well, but it's all military

9:53

minded. So you learn navigation

9:56

skills, you learn survival, you go

9:58

camping, you learn. medical skills and

10:00

to me that's what I geography

10:19

you know what sort of stones this

10:22

and that so that was me I was hooked

10:25

on going in the military so I joined

10:27

the army cadets at 16 I mean 16

10:31

when once left school two weeks later I

10:33

was in the British Army as

10:36

a 16

10:38

year old you do what's known as it's

10:40

a junior leaders battalion or junior infantry so

10:43

it here's a soldier but you

10:46

can't go on operational tours so instead of doing

10:48

if you joined when you say 18 you'd

10:51

spend some like 18 weeks basic training

10:54

whereas if a 16 year old

10:56

you did one year's basic training and as you

10:59

know basic training stuff so we had a longer

11:01

time of it well I loved every minute of

11:03

it and there actually got to give you

11:05

a rank system there so I made it to

11:07

sergeant major and in the junior

11:09

army and that was because I was in the

11:11

cadet so I already had a I

11:14

already knew some basic drill and

11:16

basic tactics and some weapons and

11:18

navigation and first day so I

11:20

really shown then anyway from

11:22

16 then I went to my parent

11:25

unit which was an infantry unit and

11:27

back in the day you go to

11:30

their normal infantry unit which

11:32

was around your area so

11:34

I joined the Staffordshire regiment and it's all guys

11:36

from the Midlands where I am

11:38

from Stoke-on-Trenton Birmingham area so you sort of

11:40

know people it's like the old Powell's regiment

11:43

they start in it's not as

11:45

much now they've sort of changed a bit like the

11:47

American system where you can be from all over the

11:49

place but here it was mainly guys from all certain

11:52

a certain area of the UK about

11:55

say 70% would be from

11:57

that area so I love that and I loved

11:59

everything about The military, my first

12:01

post team was Gibraltar, so

12:03

I had a year out there, and to

12:05

me, oh, it's fantastic, this was a 17-year-old,

12:07

and when we moved back to the UK,

12:10

he's an 18-year-old, and then we

12:14

started training up to go to Northern Ireland. So

12:17

I went on my first operational tour of Northern Ireland

12:19

as a, I was 19 by the time we

12:22

got there, and back in this time, this

12:25

is like 1984, I

12:27

was an actual close observation platoon,

12:30

and what this meant is just lying in bushes

12:32

for up to 10 days and nights, observing

12:34

where terrorists, like the terrorists there,

12:37

I was just waiting reporting on them and so on,

12:39

so it was like a specialist platoon within

12:41

the infantry, and I really enjoyed

12:43

that. However, that was like the

12:45

first taste of operations,

12:48

and then I ended up losing a good

12:50

friend and a couple of others, so then

12:52

you realize, wow, this is for real, but

12:55

it was really unusual because Northern Ireland, it's part

12:57

of Great Britain, and you could be walking in

12:59

one street and everybody loves you, and then you

13:01

cross the road into another street and everybody hates

13:03

you, then you cross the other road and so

13:05

on, and there you are, as a young soldier,

13:07

you just try and be neutral, keep the peace,

13:10

and it was just really

13:12

confusing. Anyway, that

13:15

was my first operational tour, and

13:18

then that's when I really

13:20

got wind of the SAS, because what used

13:22

to happen, we'd be lying in these observation

13:24

posts, watching terrorist

13:27

battles and just seeing for activities, and then if we

13:31

potentially thought that we'd seen something like maybe

13:33

weapons moving in and out and so on,

13:36

we would pass up to our

13:38

HQ, and then suddenly you'd have these

13:40

other guys come in, move us out,

13:42

and these guys turn up like we're beers and

13:44

everything, and they're like, who are these? And they

13:47

go in there, and then they take over

13:49

the job if they think it's going to go down, and

13:51

then I found out these were the FPS, I thought, right,

13:54

this is what I want to be doing, I want to

13:56

be joining this. So

13:58

that was my first time at SAS. That

14:00

the any indication the doing a special

14:02

forces. But. I'll

14:04

tell you what up and Of Air later on

14:06

as a go through my career about why I

14:09

got booed off. That's. Anyway, a

14:11

combat not face to the as

14:13

Northern Ireland. And. Then. We.

14:15

Went to. Germany. And.

14:18

That's right. well as the same time

14:20

of assorted started waking with Americans or

14:22

matt Americans could be go down South

14:24

American bases and you had all those

14:26

lovely p axes and stuff I that's

14:29

so it lose that over this a

14:31

cold war and then I went back

14:33

to Northern Ireland for a second civil

14:35

but this time. I. Was a corporal

14:37

so is in charge of eight people so

14:39

the system is a private the second time

14:41

as corporal and wham between this we had

14:43

lot guys go said the Fcs elections in

14:45

my unit but he don't ever been one

14:47

guy get him before the one officer and

14:49

I didn't know him and you know we

14:51

have lots and lots of guys trying book

14:53

that is that if you get ants as

14:56

a says I was i was that you'll

14:58

see it as a person but many go

15:00

go for is suddenly come back with excuses

15:02

and so you're saying. I. Wasn't good enough

15:04

for have a job as used to combat with all

15:06

the as took the line me always this that know

15:08

that i remember this guy and he was. Really?

15:11

Good guy and he got to the jungle face any

15:13

came bucks on a set swim right? I want to

15:15

go for that. And he said no,

15:17

you can't go for that mouth but as far

15:20

as that goes out because you're black or this,

15:22

what's that got do with it and he said

15:24

wow we were called looks it's mainly in Northern

15:26

Ireland on the cover the Us down ground bars

15:28

and blend in. Boston. Not date

15:30

is no way you know our i'm such

15:32

a hindrance that was identical. I'm gonna say

15:34

I respect being black in our with you

15:36

gotta be hard as nails distress assess. Assess

15:41

points so. I

15:43

under I never even thought about going for the

15:45

Ss again on so. We. Have this

15:47

officer came to our uni any the two

15:49

years in the Fcs and I'll never see

15:51

them and he come to my the. Company.

15:55

And. he was too so different than the

15:57

normal offices normally yeah no some

16:00

good officers but in the British

16:02

Army you have some officers they just turn up and

16:04

they walk in the dog and they're watching all the

16:06

troops doing their work and they can

16:08

be more concerned with doing how

16:10

good you are at drilling inspections and they've

16:13

got a big check on the

16:15

camp and they want make sure everything's immaculate and

16:17

so on. This guy he didn't want any of

16:19

that he wasn't bothered with the bullshit and if

16:21

you were good at drill or how good the

16:23

rooms were and how clean the rooms were all

16:26

he was concerned is if you was if you

16:28

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16:30

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16:32

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16:34

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it goes to me. This was after I'd

18:10

done my second tour of duty in Ireland. It goes

18:12

to me, why didn't you go for the FCS? And

18:16

I told him the exact same story, because I can't say

18:18

it. He goes, why is that? I goes, because of being

18:20

black. And he just stopped, and I told him that, you

18:23

know, I have to go undercover in Ireland. And

18:25

he just spaced out laughing. He goes, obviously you

18:27

couldn't go sitting in a pub, you'd stick out

18:29

there, but you could be on the reactive side,

18:31

the covert side, and there's lots more goes on

18:33

in the world that will fit than you think about. You

18:36

should go for it. So that was me

18:38

then convinced. I'm like, right, I'm going to go for

18:40

this. So this is

18:42

now about 19, yeah, 19, end of 1989. And

18:47

I've just done a second tour of duty

18:49

in Northern Ireland. So that's two operational tours.

18:52

Anyway, I put in all my paperwork to go

18:54

on the FCS selection. And by this

18:56

time, it was 1990. And then

18:58

we was an armored infantry regiment now, it

19:00

was based in Germany. And we got the

19:02

new armored fighter vehicle, which was the warrior

19:04

at the time, a bit like your Bradley.

19:07

So I was a corporal in charge of including myself,

19:09

10 people in this vehicle.

19:12

And then we got told about the Gulf War,

19:14

and all that was starting to get stirred

19:16

up, and we was going to be going

19:18

over there. So I withdrew my paperwork, because

19:21

I thought there's no way I'm

19:23

going to go on FCS selection, my unit's going to go

19:25

to war. So I

19:27

went through my paperwork, and then we

19:29

went over on the FCS Gulf, on the

19:32

FCS Gulf War in 1990 and 1991. And

19:36

we was deployed over there, we

19:38

actually went in something like the August. And

19:41

we were just hanging around the desert doing

19:43

all the maneuvers and everything. And it was

19:45

fantastic, because they give you that much ammunition,

19:48

because you have the buildup for the war. And

19:50

again, we was working with the US Marines

19:53

at stages, sometimes we'd have changeovers, we'd make

19:55

them in our vehicles, we'd go in there,

19:57

bravely, it's all tucked together. And

19:59

it was great. I really enjoyed all that and then

20:01

but we never thought that war would happen However,

20:05

then when it did even though it

20:07

was only on you know, four days and nights it

20:10

was short and sharp and that was like

20:12

the first introduction to proper combat and They're

20:15

on now, you know, I was in the first Real

20:18

engagement and we lost a couple

20:21

of guys saw it happen and you took

20:23

objectives. So that was like a proper

20:25

combat scenario Anyway, we

20:27

came back from there and you before before

20:29

moving on I mean, could you tell us

20:32

about that firefight and what transpired there? Oh Yeah,

20:35

well first of all What

20:38

it was we was told right?

20:40

Okay, we was armored infantry So is

20:43

an infantry battalion in their armor fighter vehicles

20:46

working close with the challenge

20:48

of tanks and support So you

20:50

work together and then we get

20:52

orders to go we're going to be attacking this

20:54

position So we dug in on the border first

20:56

of all watching all the bomb bomb and go

20:58

off for about a month and then it

21:01

came Right. This is

21:03

it now. We it's happening You'd be going

21:05

in and remember all the MRLS is going

21:07

in all the rockets and it was like

21:10

it was shaking our vehicle So I'm in

21:12

the back with all the lads and I

21:14

might just think how bad it is

21:16

on that side Yeah, you know we're

21:18

on this side. Anyway We

21:21

thought we was going to go to the to do this

21:23

attack and when we got there There was nothing left. There's

21:25

just bodies and people

21:27

wanting surrender and so on and then that happened

21:29

again And we heard out we heard over the

21:32

radio that a couple of our guys had been

21:34

injured in and then other company

21:36

They had a full-on attack. So in a way we

21:38

was like this. Come on. We want to have our

21:40

share You know man, and

21:42

we just thought nothing's going up and because every

21:45

time we got to somewhere it was over the

21:47

face Say 48 48 hours.

21:49

There was just nothing left and people just

21:51

wanting surrender And then

21:53

we were told right? Okay, we're

21:55

going to this other Area

21:58

and instead of being a battalion size It's

22:01

only in a company-sized

22:03

location, we're just going to attack that.

22:05

But when we got there, literally a

22:08

time being touched and there was hundreds

22:10

and hundreds of guys coming

22:12

out the trenches and most of them wanted to render.

22:15

However, we started getting incoming in the warriors, so

22:17

then we were told to move forward and take

22:19

the objective. And it

22:21

was really confusing because then as you were

22:23

taking the objective, there was also people trying to render and

22:25

then there was a pocket to enemy firing. What

22:29

happened was, and this is what I'd say,

22:31

this is one of the proudest days still in my

22:33

military career because we were told as the

22:37

commanders were told, you have to be in the

22:39

back of the vehicle when you open them doors

22:41

so you can push the blokes out, make

22:43

sure everybody gets out when the

22:45

incoming starts. But I said

22:48

to my blokes, I'll be at the door, at the front door and

22:50

I'll be the first out, make sure you guys follow

22:52

me. Because if you don't and I come back, I won't

22:55

be an advocate. Anyway,

22:57

at one time, we could hear the incoming on the

22:59

vehicle and we knew it was getting a

23:04

lot of incoming. We got through an area and we

23:06

did both. I looked

23:09

left and right and you got all your guys there

23:11

and then just started doing the drills because as you

23:13

know, when you practice drills that much, you forget about

23:15

all the other shit that's going on. You're just into

23:17

that drill mode, which is brilliant.

23:20

Anyway, that was happening and then we

23:23

took a position and people surrendered and then

23:25

about 50 meters to the right, there's a

23:27

bunch of Iraqis waving

23:29

white flags and wanting surrender. So

23:32

my mate's vehicle went to the

23:34

side and it was bizarre what happened.

23:36

And they were debuzzing. They come down

23:39

the side of their vehicle and as they

23:41

come around the side of their vehicle, these

23:43

guys, somebody fired an RPG from this group and

23:47

they took the sand and bounced

23:49

up and then the entire war

23:51

edit, one of the guys, Carl

23:53

Moltz, went through him, hit the vehicle

23:55

but then went up in the air and

23:57

exploded in the air. to

24:00

him right behind nothing happened to him

24:02

they just thought it was the smoke discharges

24:04

going off and all white phosphorus and

24:07

so in that happened you know literally

24:09

50 meters away right in front of

24:11

us so that was obviously

24:13

telling it and and so on

24:15

so that was like

24:17

the first full-on combat but

24:20

before in Northern Ireland we've had things

24:22

happening with terrorists but not a proper

24:25

full-on fire fire yeah

24:28

yeah it is bizarre and then we can't

24:30

we carried on moving forward then the next

24:32

day we would be altered right on the

24:34

Basel Road and we told wait there and

24:36

we didn't realize then but

24:38

this was the end we got to go that

24:41

was it and it was just as the Basel

24:43

Road literally must have been hours before all the

24:45

vehicles were moving up them Kuwait and

24:47

the Iraq is you're just trying to run up this

24:49

Basel Road and get back into Iraq

24:52

and Baghdad and wherever the Basel and

24:54

Baghdad so they were leaving Kuwait coming

24:56

up and it's a six-lane highway so

25:00

they had all their tanks on the on

25:02

the sides go up and their vehicles

25:04

and they stole all civilian vehicles including

25:07

coaches and whatever and

25:10

they were all just literally bumper

25:12

to bumper vehicles and you can

25:14

imagine the coalition forces just went up and down

25:16

the road and just blitzed everything so

25:18

it was it was a really bizarre fight

25:21

we stopped there and they were

25:23

still burning vehicles whose bodies everywhere most of

25:25

the people are completely burnt out but a

25:27

lot of them they're just been shot up

25:29

and they aren't being touched and we was

25:31

told right you waiting here now and

25:33

the rumors come that it's gonna be the end of the war

25:35

and that was it we just sat there and

25:38

we said don't move because we've been dropping

25:40

dropping our own mines around the area that

25:42

the Air Force had so these are mines

25:45

everywhere but you know what it's right to

25:47

tell you stop and I'm a corporal in

25:49

charge of my tank I'm out there you're

25:51

bored and you start just looking around and

25:53

then checking everything out and

25:55

yeah it was just a really

25:57

weird scene it was like a scene from howl or what?

26:00

these burnt

26:02

out vehicles and you go on a coach

26:04

and there's one coach, all

26:07

these dead Iraqis that's in, but

26:10

the vehicle aren't set on fire so it

26:12

was just like something from an

26:14

horror movie you know, it was really weird because you

26:16

hadn't seen anything like that before. And it took about

26:18

three days before the engineers came

26:21

up and then moved all the vehicles and

26:24

that off. So that was it. So it was

26:26

like a short and sharp war

26:29

really. Anyway, I came back from

26:31

that. Now this is

26:33

91 and then I thought right, I'm

26:35

going to go straight on SCS selection. However,

26:38

they put me straight on my sergeant's course

26:41

and I went on this. I

26:43

thought right, okay, this will be good because

26:46

you have to do this course even within the

26:48

SCS. But once

26:51

you get to the

26:53

rank of sergeant, so I thought if I get the course in now,

26:56

that's a bonus and it'll give me more experience. So I

26:58

went through this course, as soon as I

27:00

passed it, they made me up to my sergeant. Now

27:03

I've got a full platoon and we also got an

27:05

emergency tour of Northern Ireland. So this

27:07

is my fair tour of Northern Ireland. First

27:09

time was a private, second time a corporal in

27:12

charge of eight guys and now I've got 30

27:14

guys and a young

27:16

lieutenant because basically the sergeant should run it.

27:19

Anyway, so I thought right, I can't

27:21

go on SCS selection now while

27:23

my guys are going to Northern Ireland again. So

27:26

I did another tour of Northern Ireland and

27:29

by the time I finished that, we

27:31

moved back to Germany

27:34

and that's when I finally got to go

27:36

on SCS selection. So I thought to myself,

27:38

while I've had three operational tours of duty

27:41

of Northern Ireland, I've been in a proper

27:43

full-on war. I'm already a sergeant with

27:45

12 years of experience in the

27:47

infantry and arbod infantry. I thought

27:50

right, I'm good to go. I'll

27:52

be good for the special forces. I'll be hitting

27:54

the ground running. Boy, little do

27:56

you know and then once you get in there within about

27:58

18 months, you've got to go. done a lot

28:00

more and it's just like craziness, isn't

28:02

it? Yeah, you do so

28:05

much. So anyway, I

28:07

went on selection. So now this is January

28:11

1994. I went on a winter

28:13

selection course and

28:16

actually passed the first time when I

28:18

got into the D-squad and SES. So that

28:20

was the start of my military

28:22

career. It's

28:25

an amazing start, the way

28:27

you phrase it, to start. I

28:29

mean, you did four deployments with

28:32

the conventional military, including combat. What

28:35

was it like, you know, you're a

28:37

platoon sergeant going to SES selection? I

28:39

mean, what was that experience like? I

28:41

mean, it feels like maybe you were

28:43

better prepared for it than say, you

28:46

know, a younger junior guy who didn't

28:48

have as much experience. Yeah,

28:51

sure, Jack. And then in hindsight, I'm

28:53

glad now looking back that when

28:55

I first wanted to go for it, I most probably

28:57

wanted, you know, pass. You never know.

28:59

But I don't think I was mature enough at

29:01

the time. So I had a lot more experience.

29:05

However, you find most blokes who go

29:07

on it were senior, advanced

29:09

corporals and corporals, you know, you get

29:11

a few soldiers on it. And even

29:14

to go on it, you've got to have done,

29:16

back then, you start to have done at

29:18

least three years and been the same standard. Yeah.

29:20

So generally, you get

29:23

guys who are really

29:25

up for it. And especially in our day, they

29:27

have to take everyone who wants to go on

29:29

the selection and they go away for a beat

29:31

up first, have a weekend in every

29:33

third and they do all basic checks

29:35

just just to make sure they are fitting

29:37

or to at least start the course because

29:40

what was happening in the past lots of guys were putting

29:42

in to go on this course. And

29:44

then even if they failed and come back after a week, they

29:46

would look upon as an hero because nobody knew

29:48

anything about that. Right. Like that's what I said.

29:50

I never did. And he's like, wow. And they

29:52

were coming back all these stories. But you still

29:54

give them so much respect because they weren't there,

29:56

you know, right? It was just it was just

29:59

that sad. scenario so yeah

30:03

and I thought yeah it did definitely helped

30:05

me because of having the experience

30:08

but as you know

30:10

it's a totally different way of life but

30:13

I say like the normal army is what

30:16

we call the Green Army it's great

30:18

I really enjoyed it you

30:20

know you always go back to your roots I love that time

30:22

of being a sergeant and having troops in

30:24

command but once you

30:27

get into the special forces it's totally

30:29

different instead of being formal it's informal

30:31

everybody knows you by your name there's

30:33

no saluting there's no yes sir no

30:35

sir and there's no bullshit like marching

30:37

around no rhyming the kick it's

30:39

just because you haven't got time everything's operations

30:42

operations operations and if you're not

30:44

on operations preparing for an operations

30:47

and if you're not preparing for an

30:49

operations you're on an intense train you

30:51

know training getting over courses going and

30:54

then last but not least there's a better leave if

30:56

you can have a 30 turn and as you know

30:58

you just that's that's

31:00

a luxury so it was just full on

31:03

eye and I really I really enjoyed that

31:05

the selection process don't get me

31:07

wrong it was the oddest physical

31:10

and mental thing

31:12

I've done in my life and that's why it's meant to

31:14

be it's meant to push you to your physical

31:17

limits and also psychological

31:19

your mental limits but what nearly broke

31:21

me is when affairs got there mine

31:24

with the first combined one where the

31:27

Marines the FBS and FCS did the

31:29

entire course together because prior to this

31:32

the FBS used to do their own ills phase

31:34

the aptitude phase part and then you don't meet

31:36

up in the jungle and

31:38

this was the first time everybody was together

31:40

so there was all these big Marines

31:43

because the generally Marines in our

31:47

military do more fitness it's

31:49

an odd of course get in then the normal army

31:51

then the normal infantry and then you've got the Paris

31:53

and they do more fitness they have to do a

31:56

generally the more difficult get in the Paris

31:58

than a normal infantry course even though infantry

32:01

is great these guys do a bit more training

32:03

so a lot there people who go for the

32:05

special forces are from

32:07

either a parachute background or

32:09

a marine background

32:11

and I remember going there and looking at these guys

32:14

and some of them you think man

32:16

mountains you know I nearly sight

32:20

myself out of it thinking because I was the

32:22

only guy from my unit and he's 200 people

32:24

there I'm looking at these guys thinking they could

32:26

walk forever with a mountain on the back and

32:29

then you've got these very very intelligent officers

32:31

after I listen to all these officers speaking

32:33

I'm just lying on my bump bed you

32:35

know you're just in big rooms I'm listening

32:37

to these guys and there were

32:40

officers and they were saying oh about their University

32:42

and they were coming out with these big words

32:44

I didn't even know what they meant you know

32:46

I'm like God one I'm not

32:48

gonna be fit enough and two I'm

32:50

not intelligent intelligent enough for this so

32:52

I nearly found myself out but

32:54

then as you start the course

32:57

suddenly you see these big fake guys

32:59

just falling out of it mentally

33:02

it doesn't matter it's up there as you know

33:04

you keep going and the pain barrier is the

33:06

same for everyone so you're pushing

33:08

yourself and pushing yourself and that's what

33:10

motivated me and then and also

33:14

I had an incident what happened there again going

33:17

on to not so much a bullying incident

33:20

but it was a bit of a racial incident what

33:22

happened there I'm lying on my bump bed and all

33:24

these guys they're talking about the roots that they're going

33:26

to go on and they had a bunch of

33:28

six lights all from the Paris and

33:31

they were talking about the thing this is

33:33

going to be the next route I had no idea

33:35

nobody really does but there's only so many roots you

33:37

can go around the Brecon beacons there's only so many

33:39

ills there you know you can go up these mountains

33:41

one day but you don't know which mountain and

33:44

these guys thought they knew the area and

33:46

they were all just talking together so I'm lying on

33:48

my bump bed and I was

33:50

just like a normal infantry guy I jumped up to

33:52

him I goes hi guys there could

33:55

you mind if I have a look at the map tip do you mind

33:57

if you let me know this and

33:59

one of them just around and you know

34:01

because you went paratrained they started calling names

34:03

and one of them come out with like

34:06

a racial weird really bad slayer and

34:08

I you know I was so angry because I was always

34:10

told to stick up for yourself and it

34:12

didn't because I thought in the back of my

34:15

mind that if I start arguing the five

34:17

of these guys, one day was five to six

34:19

of them they'd bat me but it wasn't that

34:21

I've been battered all my life but I stood

34:23

up for myself doesn't

34:26

matter if you get kicking you've just got to you've

34:28

got to defend yourself against the bully but

34:31

I thought to my dad and I'm like

34:33

shit he would go mad however

34:35

I can't get kicked off this

34:37

course but that was one of the best

34:39

things because that was the incentive then I thought

34:41

right there's no way I'm going to leave this

34:44

course before any of them guys and I didn't

34:46

and there's the ills as we got weirder somewhere

34:48

so I remember pushing on and

34:50

then watching a couple of these guys leave and

34:52

before you know the 200 what started the course

34:54

went down to you know about just

34:58

under 40 and that was what was left going

35:00

to the jungle and then we

35:02

went on the jungle phase and I'd never been

35:04

in the jungle before and I remember this same

35:06

guy saying oh we'll see how all these hats

35:08

that's what they call the normal infantry they're saying

35:10

I'll see how these guys go in the J

35:12

in the jungle he's been there before and so

35:14

on and I'm okay anyway

35:17

when we get to the jungle again I

35:20

wouldn't leave until you know there's no way I'm

35:22

gonna leave this course until

35:24

that guy at least and these

35:26

guys a couple of them left eventually I

35:30

saw him leave he just VW'd

35:33

gone through the draw because at any time you want you

35:35

just say I've had enough and just go to the helicopter

35:37

in the jungle and just wait and get the next helicopter

35:39

out and I watched them go and that

35:41

was about two weeks in the jungle and

35:43

then I thought to myself wow who forgot

35:46

go for now and this is my incentive

35:48

I'm like shit I've just got carry on

35:50

now and get through this but

35:53

I dare die and and the main thing was even though

35:55

you've never been in the jungle before you get towards everything

35:58

and that's all the selection processes

36:00

and that really is all what the

36:02

special forces is at the beginning.

36:04

They just want you to do the basics properly

36:06

and they teach you something and so to me

36:08

it was like right I'm doing exactly they tell

36:10

me stay there don't move I'd say they don't

36:12

move they tell me this man the

36:15

other I would just do it to the to

36:17

the to the letter and just got through it

36:19

so yeah I got through the jungle stage

36:21

and this is most people say

36:24

this is where it they pick you because you watched

36:29

there's a group of four of you and you sort

36:31

of watch 24-7 you know that they'll

36:33

instructors will come with night vision goggles

36:35

or whatever and they like to see

36:39

they like to watch when nobody

36:41

when they don't think you when you

36:43

don't think anybody's around they like to see what's

36:45

going on in the background see who's helping each

36:47

other make a model see who's who's

36:50

the yes yes watch

36:52

it who's only works when like that

36:54

the instructors around and so on so

36:56

they get to know the person really

36:58

well and and you got

37:00

you you can't you can't hide in that jungle

37:03

you know and you can't get out of it

37:05

so that's where you pick sort of thing

37:08

anyway but when you finish that you go

37:10

and that arguably I'd say this was the

37:12

most difficult part that's going on to the

37:16

survival part and the interrogation part where you

37:18

go on the run because let's

37:20

face it even even the hills face it

37:22

if you were if you were really fit

37:24

civilian and

37:27

you're very good at navigation and you're very

37:29

determined you could get really through the aptitude

37:31

phase tapping over the mountains

37:34

and hills and you know getting

37:36

through the jungles yeah very very difficult but maybe

37:38

you could get for that but how

37:40

do you train your mind out how do you

37:42

train yourself right for going on the run for

37:44

so many days and nights and then getting

37:47

beasties for 36 hours you just don't

37:49

go through that and to me that's

37:51

where they push you to your obviously

37:53

they try push it to your physical

37:55

image but without injuring yet they don't

37:57

want people injured but unfortunately on some

38:00

sometimes on courses without people badly injured

38:02

or their person die It's

38:04

part of possible but even though you put all the

38:06

safety measures in it It happens because you push that

38:09

much physically and then mentally it's the same

38:11

They won't push it to your breaking limits,

38:13

but they've got get an happy medium because

38:15

they push you too far Then

38:18

you know, that's it. Yeah, it's all fix a

38:20

mind And again

38:22

on this I remember seeing a smoth is

38:24

there and I thought to myself he's really

38:27

intelligent He'll remember everything they've told him and

38:30

but couldn't believe it he left the

38:32

course because he just started speaking and started

38:34

writing things down and everything because everybody

38:37

goes to that stage where they're

38:39

completely tired and the hallucinating and

38:42

You know, I tried the sleep deck Declaration

38:45

declaration. Yep. Yes, I remember

38:47

just watching this This

38:51

guy give me an interrogation and

38:53

literally they're just turned into Mickey

38:55

Mouse cuz you're you were hallucinating

38:57

the light God almighty

39:00

so to me that

39:02

was the most difficult part I thought wow

39:04

if this was at the beginning I'd be out of here,

39:06

but you know, this is the last part of it And

39:10

that was it so I do believe it's

39:12

a fantastic course And I know your

39:15

courses are very very very similar. We've run

39:17

in the same way Don't we you do

39:19

all these type of phases go through the

39:21

fitness phase the mind game phase and so

39:23

on But I do believe it does It

39:26

changes here and they do Iron

39:30

out what's left of it, right? They

39:32

put a bunch of people together and what

39:35

comes out It's something quite unique at the end

39:37

because everybody's the same even though what

39:39

David still in our founding father said This

39:42

was the FC FC force and only

39:44

thought about it really once it got out in

39:46

detail He said every person who gets

39:48

in the FCF you've got to have

39:51

this they've got to have classlessness humility

39:55

Integrity the shoots of excellence

39:57

and a sense of humor and

39:59

a fortune That is fantastic. You

40:02

put them five points together. And so

40:04

classlessness, that means you can work with

40:06

people from different

40:08

backgrounds, different races,

40:11

different religions, different

40:13

classes of society, you know, very rich people, poor

40:15

people. But they're all in the same group. They've

40:18

all got that common goal. So you all get

40:20

on. And if you've got this, not only in

40:22

the special forces, it's a bonus for

40:24

the rest of your life, no matter what job you're

40:26

in, you could be working in McDonald's, something weird, problem

40:28

with that. But if you can just

40:30

go for that if-offs classlessness and then

40:33

humility, you know, nobody likes somebody

40:35

who's just, you've got

40:37

to be humble, you know, but

40:40

you've got to be confident, but not arrogant.

40:42

You've got to be a normal person, basically.

40:44

And that's life. And not

40:46

everybody can get on with somebody no matter what

40:49

job. And then integrity.

40:52

Nobody likes a liar. You prefer a fifth than a

40:55

liar. And as you know, you've got

40:57

to roll your hands up. Yeah, we all make

40:59

mistakes. You've got to admit it. If you, for

41:01

instance, everybody wants to go

41:03

on operations, but if you are injured, you've

41:05

got to, and nobody, people try and fake

41:07

it, they'll do anything to, you

41:10

know, kick all them painkillers

41:13

or whatever. They don't want that backstop because they

41:15

won't get on that operation. But they've

41:17

got to hold their hands up and say, no, this, or

41:20

for instance, we've had people on certain

41:22

jobs, pull out of the job and

41:25

pull their team out because they

41:27

could have got compliment. And that's

41:29

a big no-no, but really, they did the right

41:32

thing. But at the time, it was

41:34

looked on as bad. You know, you've got to be honest.

41:37

And integrity is massive and in any weird

41:39

place. And then finally, the last

41:41

two is pursuit of excellence. I always say, if you're

41:43

going to be, I remember saying to me, and I

41:45

kept saying to me for a while, if you're going

41:47

to be a Tom, which is a private, be a

41:49

good Tom. So even though I joined as a sergeant,

41:51

you go down to a trooper and I found myself

41:53

in the FCS, you've been used to

41:55

commanding 30 people. Next minute, I'm holding a pair

41:58

of ladders. everybody's

42:00

ruining up the building and I'm the ladder holder,

42:02

that was my job. I made sure that he

42:04

was the best ladder holder, you had the correct

42:06

diet, you got the quicker and faster, you practice

42:08

on whether you're doing it on a coach, on

42:11

a building, on a... You know,

42:13

so no matter what job you're

42:15

in, just shoot of excellence. If you're going to be

42:17

a cleaner, be the best cleaner, because somebody will notice

42:19

you in that line of work and just pride in

42:21

your job. If you're going to be a machine gunner,

42:23

be the best machine gunner. And then finally, a sense

42:25

of humor, and let's face it, you've got

42:27

to have a sense of humor in life, and no matter what.

42:30

And as you know, the

42:32

military, we've got... It's a different type

42:34

of sense of humor. Yeah. I think

42:36

the closest to yours is emergency services

42:39

and people like that. It's a

42:41

dark humor. Yeah. And you've got

42:43

to, aren't you? And like

42:46

even in the most dangerous places, and

42:49

all when unfortunately we've all

42:51

lost good friends, but

42:55

it's the mistake. Yeah. You just start having a laugh

42:57

about all the things what went

42:59

on with this guy and all the, you

43:01

know, mistakes he made, all the problems you had, and all the

43:03

laughs together. And you just sort of, we call it

43:05

taking a pith out of each other and so on. It's that

43:08

banter and Sevastry to frown

43:10

upon a lot more. But in

43:13

the army, the

43:15

special affairs forces, you know, sense humor is

43:17

massive. So I do believe that ethos is

43:20

just, it's fantastic in any career.

43:23

So that's what comes out of

43:25

selection. They do look for all this,

43:27

and especially when they're in the

43:29

jungle part. So you get all these guys

43:32

together and now it's 200 started, and then at the

43:35

end, there were six SES soldiers, and

43:37

then for SBS. So there's only 10 of

43:39

them. And I remember looking at all

43:41

the guys, and there was

43:43

only one guy taller and bigger than

43:45

me, and everybody else was just normal

43:47

build or smaller, smaller, you know, you're

43:49

like, well, just

43:52

the normal blokes get through it.

43:55

And yeah, so I do believe

43:57

it's a great. selection

44:01

process that our militaries

44:03

go through to produce a

44:05

Special Forces soldier. So

44:07

after you go through selection, you

44:09

complete your training, you land in

44:12

D Squadron. I mean

44:15

you mentioned a little bit about how you went

44:17

back down to essentially being like kind of a

44:19

private in the SAS, you

44:21

know, starting like starting over from as a junior

44:24

guy. But could you tell us

44:26

a little bit about like the culture of D

44:28

Squadron, what it was like being in a team

44:30

room with a bunch of like seasoned SAS operators?

44:32

I mean what was that experience like for you

44:34

as a new guy there? Oh

44:37

god, it was really unusual that

44:39

Sis, because you go in there and I

44:42

remember getting introduced to this Aunt Major and you're

44:45

calling him Sis and it's like no my name's, you

44:48

said his name and yeah and every now and

44:50

again you're calling, no don't

44:52

call me Sis, none of that shit. And then I

44:54

remember looking around the team room and you think to

44:56

yourself you go and get there and everybody's gonna be

44:59

really fit and then I'm looking at these all shapes

45:01

and sizes and I'm like wow this doesn't look like

45:03

special, you know, not my vision

45:05

of a Special Forces guy but what you, what

45:08

I soon found out is you've got

45:11

guys who've just come back from Northern Ireland

45:13

where they've been playing, not

45:15

playing operational but

45:17

blending in with

45:20

the IRL, pretending to be a Civi and

45:22

so on. Right. So they make

45:25

this make out like they like them and they're

45:27

sitting in bars and all the rest of it

45:29

and people who come from different posts and

45:32

yet all these guys they still

45:34

would carry all that kit and they're still, you

45:36

know, there was no organised

45:38

PT sessions you just have to keep yourself right

45:41

and you could do the job so all these

45:43

guys that could do the job but they were

45:45

just all different shapes and sizes and that really

45:47

shocked me and also what shocked me was

45:49

when I first got there you're here

45:52

about the squadrons and you think right

45:54

you've got in the normal military you've

45:56

got a command structure you've got the

45:58

company so many platoon, platoon sergeants. and

46:00

so many commanders, we got

46:02

there. And literally in

46:05

some groups, there's only eight, and instead of 16,

46:07

and then in other groups, this 12, none of them, nobody

46:10

was up to strength. And you could

46:12

have so many sergeants and then just a

46:14

couple of troopers. But they all just got

46:16

on, everybody had a role. And

46:21

also, everybody had to say, I remember

46:23

being there, and straight away, we're getting

46:25

briefs for operations. And then the guys

46:29

putting their words in, the officers talking about the

46:31

plan, and so are the blokes. And then you

46:34

go around the table, and they're

46:36

asking me, I'm like, wow. And they ask

46:38

every single person, it doesn't matter if you've

46:40

been the newest guy or the oldest

46:42

guy, and they take other people's opinions

46:45

as well, but obviously the buck stops with

46:47

who's ever in charge. But that's what was

46:49

really pleasing to see. And then

46:51

the amount of responsibility, so you

46:53

come out, you start as a trooper, but

46:56

it's not that everybody gets on, you

46:58

know the bosses and so on. And

47:00

then suddenly you get taken away, okay,

47:03

Mal, you and you now, you're going

47:05

to go on this, you're going to

47:07

go on this course next minute, you're

47:09

away doing forward air controlling, and then

47:11

you're away as an individual or just a pair

47:13

of you, you've got so

47:15

much responsibility, you're in charge

47:18

of all this operational air, where

47:20

usually it's just a sitting officer in the

47:22

RAF or in the artillery, and that's just

47:24

their main job. You just

47:27

get sent there just for a few weeks or a

47:29

few months, do it, and then a couple of other

47:31

guys will come and take over and so on, and

47:33

then you find yourself, actually, I've

47:35

had to pinch myself, I've found myself briefing

47:37

the general and talking to a general,

47:40

and he's pushing all these officers out

47:42

the way, and he comes to where we were,

47:44

this was in Bosnia, and they

47:47

come, okay, what's your name, speaking to him,

47:49

and it's like, yeah, Boston, right,

47:51

what do you think of it, and what's your

47:53

opinion? And you

47:55

think to yourself, God almighty, you've

47:58

got that much responsibility. But

48:00

what I find it's more

48:02

strategic responsibility with whereas before

48:04

it's just it's mainly tactical

48:06

responsibility You and your troops on

48:08

the ground. This was what you say and

48:10

do it can get can go all the way up

48:12

to a very very high

48:15

standard so yeah, I

48:17

really enjoyed it it was just it

48:20

was just a something totally different but what

48:22

I always remember is As

48:25

soon as we passed we've got that we've

48:27

got a clock tower and it's

48:29

a famous within areas they didn't in the camp

48:31

and It's

48:34

known as you've got to beat the clock because since the

48:36

second world war or I think there's only been one year

48:38

There's never been a name on that clock and to get

48:40

your name on the clock you don't want

48:42

your name on the clock because you've got to

48:44

die either on operations or within training and As

48:48

soon as we got a berries. There was no

48:50

big parade It was just like chucky buried right

48:52

down you going to these quadrants such and such

48:54

you're going to this quadrant And they are fisser

48:56

who passes out. I remember him saying listen

48:59

enjoy It will be over

49:01

an heartbeat and Then he said

49:04

and also make sure you beat the clock and

49:06

I didn't know what that meant But

49:10

then over the years when you go back and

49:12

you see that clock and then you know You

49:14

know all your mates you've got that many different

49:16

people, you know on the clock and it's just like wow What

49:19

a and then where did them 12

49:21

years go? You've had 12 years have been in because

49:23

I'll tell that 12 years I did in the SES

49:26

I had 10 of them years was just at the point

49:28

of the in the saber squadron You know at

49:30

the point of the spear because you have four SES squadrons

49:33

You have a B D and G they all do the

49:36

same thing. They just rotate round You

49:38

know going on operations going on counter terrorist

49:40

and doing training and so on but as

49:42

you guys know Straight

49:45

after as soon as 9-11 happened that

49:47

was it instead of having like one

49:49

group on operations one group training one

49:52

group on Counter-terrorism

49:55

and so on and you had to sort of

49:57

a rotation then it that store went out the

49:59

window because operations is number one. So

50:02

sometimes it'd be the entire,

50:04

all the three squadrons were on operations

50:06

and no matter what, there'd always

50:08

be one squadron that would have

50:11

to stay in the UK because they had

50:13

a counter-terror squadron in

50:15

case a

50:17

big terrorist incident happened and the police couldn't take

50:20

it on. Something like a

50:22

plane being hijacked or something like

50:24

the London, I mean the embassy's

50:26

getting taken on. So sometimes

50:29

it was like obviously training and leave,

50:31

go out there, it was just operations,

50:33

operations, operations, but I enjoyed that. I

50:36

really did. So I found myself as soon as I

50:38

got there, one

50:41

of the first things I was doing was carrying a

50:43

coffin of somebody who died from

50:46

the squadron, I didn't know him, but he died

50:48

on the, he only came in, he was on

50:50

the selection before me, I didn't know him, but

50:52

I found myself as part of the coffin bearing

50:54

team because most of the lads couldn't get back for

50:56

the funeral. I'm like, wow, and that

50:58

just showed me how thick and

51:00

fast it was and nobody knew about this,

51:03

obviously, because it's like secretive operations

51:05

what were going on and so on,

51:07

but it was just very, how

51:10

can I say it? It was

51:12

something that was just,

51:16

went so fast and at times,

51:19

so enjoyable, as you know,

51:21

you don't have time really think about it until

51:23

you leave the military and

51:26

so on. But even me, I was very, very

51:28

lucky, I think, because over, it's been

51:30

over 40 years, I've either been in the British

51:32

military in the special

51:34

forces or training in small

51:36

teams with special forces guys or training

51:39

special forces, foreign special

51:41

forces. So I've always been in that

51:44

type of community. So I

51:46

had a nice transition of going

51:48

from one to go out eventually doing

51:51

training for foreign special

51:54

forces, which was great because you

51:56

just, they're training them and you're playing with weapons every

51:58

day. You're working with like. people and

52:01

the American Special Forces and Australian Special Forces

52:03

and Brits Special Forces we all got on

52:05

and we all came and because talking

52:08

of that I find the Brits

52:10

and the Americans we've we've just got

52:12

that common bond I remember going over

52:15

to your the first time I

52:17

ever worked with Americans was 1984 as a some

52:21

infantry unit we went over to Fort Lewis

52:23

and Washington and it was the Airborne Rangers

52:25

yeah and God I loved that

52:27

place and we ended up going there where was

52:30

it is like Tahoe

52:32

no Tom and when

52:34

we fell as well like time is down in

52:36

Nevada Nevada yeah I went there that's

52:39

a different time but the coma you

52:41

were in a coma yeah

52:43

yeah you're coming right yeah and

52:46

I remember going on to that camp and I'm

52:48

thinking shit cuz we some some we have like

52:50

garrison places which were a bit bigger but a

52:52

lot of times it's just a battalion base which

52:54

is only 800 people and then you've got just

52:56

sivvies around it your camp that

52:58

for Lewis I'm like god it's like a

53:01

city and yeah it was just so different

53:03

in the British military camp and and the

53:05

food and everything else is just god and

53:07

I love the training there apart from where

53:09

did we go Yakima and it was winter

53:11

survival God almighty was cold but we went

53:14

to Crystal Mountain and did skid

53:16

and that so that was my first look

53:18

at the working and

53:21

being involved

53:23

like with the US and I loved it

53:25

and then since then we

53:27

also when we was back GM needs to go down

53:29

to the PX and stuff like that and even we

53:32

used to do training in Canada but the guys was

53:34

right on the Canadian border go down to Montana we

53:36

loved it and then in the first Gulf again we

53:38

did a lot of cross training and

53:40

then once I got into special forces one

53:43

of the first things I remember the team

53:46

what was involved in Black Hawk Down they

53:48

came across and give us briefs because we

53:50

always have cross briefs together where you guys

53:52

and other special forces units come across

53:54

and I think we go across to yours and

53:56

we give each other briefs and

53:58

help each other out so them guys came and

54:01

that was really interesting then I found myself

54:04

going over to Fort Bragg and again what a

54:06

place and massive and working with the Delta guys

54:08

and there's the guys who was on some

54:11

of the guys who came and give us a brief they

54:13

were doing these courses for us because we like that the

54:17

poor smaller brothers you know

54:19

you've got such great

54:22

real estate and facilities then we

54:24

come across for instance when we

54:26

practice of blowing aircraft doors we

54:29

put wood up there we've got a metal

54:31

aircraft and then we just blew in

54:33

the wooden doors off come across to

54:35

you guys and you'd be blowing proper aircraft

54:38

doors off and not just one two three

54:40

a day you'd be like wow and

54:42

you know you've got all the facilities so that was

54:45

really good and also apart

54:47

from working and doing Bragg

54:49

and we do a lot of cross training a

54:51

lot of your guys will come over to us but

54:53

also waiting that's where I got to

54:57

come not late TAR

54:59

because we had we had a long weekend we

55:01

went to Nevada just two of us they sent

55:03

us two of us doing some air controlling and

55:06

it's with the seals and God

55:08

almighty you're I remember doing forward air controlling

55:10

in the UK we've only got certain real

55:12

estate where you can drop live and

55:15

you can only do certain runs so it gets

55:17

a bit boring you go to America you got

55:19

that desert God I remember

55:21

they have like got

55:23

there they had a built-up area and

55:26

they have two 25 millimeter howitzers what

55:28

with fire white phosphorus and you could

55:30

use them to mock targets did

55:32

have guys with stinging missiles so

55:34

they could be you know target the

55:37

aircraft you'd have a

55:40

remote control tanks and they drop tool bombs

55:43

on it and they make a balsa wood

55:45

village and then you'd bomb the fuck out of it

55:48

oh sorry it's just wearing and then

55:50

next day you come back you built

55:52

a new one it's like this is

55:55

amazing so yeah it's great and then

55:57

once I left the special force it's a very first finger day

56:00

was go out working for American news

56:03

crews with CBS News. So

56:06

we have American teams, but it

56:08

was like, we're working with

56:10

American media, but it was just all a

56:12

small team of four special forces guys. So

56:14

basically I got out after the

56:16

end of 2005 and I was in

56:18

Baghdad, but then all that fell and went

56:21

across to the second Gulf

56:23

War, went in the

56:25

desert first of all, and then into Baghdad. And

56:27

I remember then say, and rotations that are this

56:29

place, it's a nightmare, I'll never be back here

56:32

again. Don't be old, 18 months

56:34

after getting out. I mean, once I'm out,

56:36

the very first job, I was out

56:38

in Baghdad, the exact places you were there before,

56:41

but instead of being on the offensive where, you

56:43

know, it's dangerous, but at the

56:45

end, you're gonna have all the backup, you're gonna have

56:47

the medical support and everything. You're on the defensive,

56:49

you're just getting in there doing the filming and

56:52

getting out, but you're still armed and everything, because you

56:54

try to blend in with the news crew so you'd have your

56:56

weapon and say, a tripod bag,

56:59

and obviously your pistol down your pants and

57:01

your job is to protect in the news,

57:03

but some of the incidents were

57:05

up in there. I could just go on all

57:07

night about it and how dangerous that was. Lucky

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Colombo Law. I'll get into that

58:26

Melvin. I'd love to hear some of those stories.

58:29

But I would like to hear about the

58:31

2003 invasion, the second invasion of

58:34

Iraq and what your experiences were

58:36

like there with the SAS, if

58:39

you can tell us a bit about that. Yeah,

58:41

well, what I always remember

58:43

is, going back to the

58:46

fifth Gulf War, I

58:48

remember that people were saying, oh, there'd be

58:50

special forces behind there, guiding them bombs on

58:53

and so on, and they're like, God, I

58:55

want to know that one day. And then,

58:57

won't be old, it was the second Iraq War, and

58:59

we were building up for it a while before we

59:01

knew it was going to happen. It

59:04

wasn't when, I mean, if it was

59:06

just when, but we just, the beat up for

59:09

it was such a long time. And we had

59:11

certain squadrons, you know, certain squadrons were just, their

59:13

main jobs was just Afghanistan and certain squadrons were

59:15

just going to be Iraq. And

59:18

so we had a good build up for it. So by

59:20

the time we got across there, it was,

59:23

to me, it was a

59:25

great finale because the original

59:27

special forces with David Stirling was, as

59:29

you know, in the desert, in the

59:31

Second World War, were going out behind

59:33

enemy lines and doing all the raids

59:35

and creating havoc. And basically, that's

59:37

what we were dead. We went behind enemy lines, dropped

59:41

off and got to know all

59:43

our locations, and then just created

59:45

havoc and

59:47

did all the proper special forces stuff.

59:50

So Ambushis and raids, it was fantastic.

59:53

So we did that. And then our

59:56

squadron, we got pulled out of there because

59:58

we were told, right, OK. Baghdad's

1:00:00

falling, so then we pulled out and

1:00:02

went straight into Baghdad. So we had like a

1:00:04

fair bit of time doing full-on

1:00:07

combat and out in

1:00:10

the desert, rural, and then

1:00:12

suddenly there was a conversion and you were doing

1:00:14

now, urban. Yeah, and

1:00:16

this was like not, you know, I've done urban

1:00:18

before, but that was more undercover type stuff and

1:00:21

we've done stuff in Bosnia and so on, but

1:00:23

this was something else because it

1:00:25

just literally as Baghdad had just

1:00:27

fallen and it was like we got attached to

1:00:29

these, well, it

1:00:32

was a marine unit, but we were just doing our

1:00:34

own thing. We'd had that deck of cards, that pack

1:00:36

of 52, and it

1:00:38

was the case of, right, we're going to

1:00:40

be getting this. And sometimes you just have

1:00:42

somebody coming in or they

1:00:45

pass on to the military, they think they know

1:00:47

where such and such is, or such and such a

1:00:50

general, or somebody from the bad part. And it was

1:00:52

like, right, okay, roll up and

1:00:54

let's go get them. So we jump in your

1:00:56

army, in the Bradley's, the

1:00:59

units we were with, they provide the outer

1:01:01

cordon and then we'd go in and do

1:01:03

the CQB because obviously we

1:01:06

specialised in that a lot with

1:01:08

the counter-terrorism, so that was like a speciality

1:01:10

of ours. But it wasn't one, sometimes

1:01:12

you're doing two, three a day because you just have

1:01:14

to go off the interface so you didn't have time

1:01:16

to do all the planning before. We've

1:01:19

been on jobs where you've had a lot of

1:01:21

time to plan and you've been in area fair,

1:01:23

then a flash to bang, you've gone away, done

1:01:25

something, back in 48 hours, there's been a lot

1:01:27

of planning, a lot of reports

1:01:30

and a lot of intelligence on the target you're

1:01:32

going to apprehend

1:01:34

and so on. So

1:01:37

it's usually like that, this wasn't any of

1:01:39

that, it was a case of, right, a

1:01:42

quick set of QBOs, quick battle orders, and

1:01:44

sometimes you're just running, getting woke up, okay,

1:01:46

rolling, right, I get my team

1:01:48

together and you just blah, blah, blah, and away

1:01:50

you go, or you're shouting out what you're going

1:01:52

to be doing in the back of the noisy

1:01:55

Bradley, because it was that quick of the jobs. You

1:01:58

had to go, if somebody come up to the gate. they

1:02:00

think they know where such and such is, then

1:02:02

away you go. And obviously a lot of times you get

1:02:04

there and they'd be the wrong place

1:02:06

or nobody's there or they've just left. But

1:02:08

then over times we did get a few

1:02:10

of them. And then over times it was

1:02:12

what the remainder who was there, just their

1:02:15

bodyguards and that. So you just didn't know

1:02:17

what to expect every time you went in

1:02:19

there. So it was, to me, it was

1:02:21

a great sort of finale

1:02:23

near the end of my career because you

1:02:26

had the full on rural

1:02:29

side of it, being behind enemy lines and doing

1:02:32

that in the desert and then going on and

1:02:34

having all the urban side of it. So

1:02:36

yeah, that was fantastic. And then as I

1:02:38

said, once it got out of the south

1:02:40

street back and back there, but this time

1:02:42

on the defensive, a lot more dangerous as

1:02:44

well. We're, during that

1:02:47

period of time in 2003, were

1:02:49

there any particular like missions that kind of

1:02:51

stood out in your mind is like this

1:02:53

was really significant or whatever

1:02:55

it was that kind of is prominent in

1:02:57

your mind even today? Oh

1:03:00

yeah, there was a fair few missions

1:03:02

and there was especially, well in both

1:03:04

parts on the rural side of when we was out

1:03:06

in the desert because

1:03:10

sometimes we literally went and did a

1:03:12

reconnaissance to this area where we was

1:03:14

going to call in some air on

1:03:17

a certain objective one night. And

1:03:19

we went to the check

1:03:21

of the area, just so many vehicles just

1:03:24

rolled in there with all the NVGs and

1:03:26

it's just, I remember thinking

1:03:28

I'm so tired and

1:03:31

that I'm seeing things and I thought I was seeing

1:03:33

things moving on the ground. I thought, what's

1:03:36

that? It must be rabbits or something

1:03:38

because we were driving along but

1:03:40

we actually got on the road. That's how cocky we

1:03:42

were and how full of a salt. And we were

1:03:44

just going along this road. And either side, I thought,

1:03:47

I'm sure I've seen something on the

1:03:49

ground and I was just, I

1:03:51

never said anything. But Madrada

1:03:54

and Nagorno at the time, they were

1:03:56

saying when we spoke about it after,

1:03:58

they saw things. What it was we

1:04:01

went check the ferry out then next

1:04:03

day we move back to to do

1:04:05

the task What was meant to be doing like calling in

1:04:07

there? And no kidding you when

1:04:10

the air came it was just bonkers.

1:04:12

We were just in a massive area He was in

1:04:14

the middle of a full-on position so

1:04:17

these And I

1:04:19

found I'll tell you the story so we got out of

1:04:21

this position like what the hell was that and Next

1:04:24

day we get the report from

1:04:26

the predators what went over because we should

1:04:29

both try to fly over but The

1:04:32

US that your guys were using it and

1:04:34

obviously was your your your Your

1:04:37

resources so then we sort of went

1:04:39

and blind To where we went

1:04:41

on target and then next day they came and

1:04:43

we got the full-on report one of the guys

1:04:46

that is doing the extra and office on the

1:04:48

other's laptop and and the Back

1:04:50

and Basically, you could

1:04:52

see everything that we was inside a

1:04:54

massive massive position So either side of

1:04:57

the road they could even show like

1:04:59

four man fire trenches So what I

1:05:01

thought was moving and what was on

1:05:03

the ground was it was actually Iraqi's

1:05:05

heads popping up and then popping back

1:05:07

down. You're so oh shit Yeah,

1:05:09

we were just and Because

1:05:12

they didn't know who we were right I think and

1:05:14

they were really rational on when we were trying to

1:05:16

get out of it after we called in Because

1:05:20

what happened was we actually all the

1:05:22

anti-aircraft weapons They started trimming and firing on us

1:05:24

as well So like what the hell we thought

1:05:27

was getting mortared and then we get back on

1:05:29

this road to get out of it But then

1:05:31

you saw a tracer coming across not

1:05:34

you know, it's on the sides of us and then You

1:05:37

saw stuff coming over your head and landing in

1:05:39

front of you exploding you think shit. I've got

1:05:41

get through that You know, what the hell was

1:05:43

that what we went through? And

1:05:45

then when we saw on the map where we were

1:05:48

you think out they out if we get out of

1:05:50

there It was just amazing but then

1:05:52

the next day the sensors back in the different area and

1:05:54

do do the same again or So,

1:05:57

yeah, there was some pull on pull on contacts

1:06:00

there and again,

1:06:02

it's just by luck that you

1:06:04

get out of these These tasks

1:06:06

don't I'd say look but it's also good

1:06:09

drills because everybody knows exactly what they're doing

1:06:11

and moving and so on but yeah

1:06:14

after being overpowered we was

1:06:17

you know, definitely a small fish in a big

1:06:19

sea and then yeah,

1:06:21

there was many jobs of them once we went

1:06:24

on inside the city itself

1:06:26

and And obviously

1:06:28

I'm not allowed to say who we got but we

1:06:30

got some big targets and we missed some targets just

1:06:33

by You know literally minutes

1:06:35

20 minutes and reckon we

1:06:37

could have got some big ones But yeah

1:06:39

some so full-on jobs there How

1:06:42

was it for you working with you

1:06:44

know, whether they were active or or

1:06:46

National Guard the armor units That

1:06:48

were there to provide you guys cordon and support

1:06:51

and things like that Was

1:06:53

that a learning process for you guys or is it

1:06:55

is it something that you had already been trained up

1:06:57

on? No, yeah Tell

1:07:00

you the truth. I found myself having been

1:07:02

years ago in the armored the

1:07:04

mechanized unit on the infantry unit, you know,

1:07:06

I organized

1:07:08

I I knew the The

1:07:13

Tactics of armor I've worked with armor

1:07:16

before but in special forces We don't

1:07:18

we'd never work with armor before so

1:07:20

there's a better learning care, but we

1:07:22

that they went out their way To

1:07:26

facilitate it and yeah, we

1:07:28

got this way very very Wow. I

1:07:30

must admit, you know, yeah We're

1:07:33

coming to their US not want to see that

1:07:35

special forces. We work with the US

1:07:40

Was it the Marines and then also

1:07:42

with their army, yeah, but every every

1:07:44

unit work with just so facilitating is

1:07:46

brilliant Really got them Wow. Yeah,

1:07:49

and then after the invasion

1:07:51

of Iraq you went to

1:07:53

a special wing of the SAS in Yeah,

1:07:58

I went to a special wing. It's at the time

1:08:00

it was called F.P.W. which is force projection wing.

1:08:02

The team changed the name of it now and

1:08:05

that was like a specialist wing within the F.S. so I

1:08:08

went to that and that was just and

1:08:10

then after that I really that was

1:08:12

when I was getting out and I decided to

1:08:14

get out. I did my time I've done you

1:08:16

know my full career and I thought to myself

1:08:18

right do a stay in now do a get

1:08:20

out and make get out and

1:08:22

then he said right come on this

1:08:25

job we can be the news which

1:08:27

was great because I said

1:08:29

to my wife at the time one was my girlfriend

1:08:32

I said right listen you've

1:08:35

been used to me being away for

1:08:37

months at a time and being away in dangerous

1:08:40

areas now I'm going to carry on going

1:08:42

away and it's a dangerous area obviously looking after

1:08:44

the press and then bagged out when it was

1:08:46

really dangerous then and they're

1:08:48

just small teams. I says

1:08:50

however we're getting money for it this time

1:08:53

but the difference was if something would have

1:08:55

happened like a couple years before and he

1:08:57

was over there fighting for a country

1:09:00

would have been a case of right FCS

1:09:02

guy dies in aero he died in Iraq

1:09:04

but then if anything happened

1:09:06

to you there it'll be okay he's

1:09:08

a missionary he didn't even have to be out

1:09:10

there he's just after money and but people don't

1:09:12

realize you still you still got to

1:09:15

look after your families and that's what that was

1:09:17

like what people were doing the majority guys let's

1:09:19

face it they go out and we call it

1:09:21

the circuit they go on and start

1:09:23

jumping on the PSD teams and getting on

1:09:26

these military type contracts

1:09:28

and looking doing PSD

1:09:31

and as you know when it starts

1:09:34

when at the beginning there's big money and

1:09:36

that and let's face it you still got to

1:09:38

look after your family and everything so and

1:09:40

plus I was just working with all these

1:09:42

squadron guys not only FCS guys but they

1:09:44

were all ex D squadron so I was

1:09:46

waiting with the four guys we all knew

1:09:49

and all make to me just rotate so

1:09:51

for ten months a year I wasn't fat

1:09:53

and bad looking after the news

1:09:55

but I got on really well with obviously all the

1:09:57

news crew and then you did

1:09:59

actually saw You had time to adjust

1:10:01

and see the different side, what the Iraqis

1:10:03

were doing. Because I've worked with Iraqis all

1:10:05

the time as well, and you

1:10:07

realised that then, as it went on,

1:10:09

the devastation, what they caused, and how

1:10:12

they really wanted us there. But then later

1:10:14

on, over the years, because I had four

1:10:16

years there, they were saying, at

1:10:19

least with Saddam, we knew he was a terrible

1:10:21

dictator and they hated him, and some of them

1:10:23

had had family killed, but they said, they prefer

1:10:26

still having him back there now instead of, at

1:10:28

least they could get the kids to school,

1:10:30

they could go to a market without it getting blown

1:10:32

up, and so on. And it was

1:10:34

really, I found that

1:10:36

quite difficult period as well, because you were

1:10:39

just working with a small man, formed man

1:10:41

group, but also all the American

1:10:43

news teams what used to rotate through, you

1:10:45

got to know them really well. And

1:10:48

unfortunately, we lost

1:10:50

good friends out there, we dropped them off,

1:10:53

they're not on an embed with American military,

1:10:55

and they went on an embed, and there

1:10:57

was a big car bomb there, and two

1:10:59

good friends killed outright,

1:11:01

and then one of the main correspondents, she

1:11:04

was badly injured. And then we had a

1:11:06

few Iraqi friends, we got to know over

1:11:08

the years, they bring in treats

1:11:10

when they had a baby from their family, but most of

1:11:12

the time they spent in the hotel with you, because obviously

1:11:15

it was a danger for them to be

1:11:19

back home, and when they did go back home,

1:11:21

nobody knew who they were working with. But sometimes

1:11:23

it got the way it got out, it got

1:11:25

followed. So that's a couple of them over the

1:11:27

years got kidnapped, then killed,

1:11:30

tortured and killed, and you knew these people.

1:11:33

So it was like, God almighty, that was

1:11:36

quite intense. But then after that, I

1:11:39

finished after about four years, and I'm like, right, because

1:11:41

we had a four year plan, me and my wife,

1:11:43

I said, now I'm going to go to just go

1:11:45

on a normal circuit, and sort of just do normal

1:11:48

lab work and bits of their ships security. So I

1:11:50

did that just for a few months, but then I

1:11:52

got a great job with a

1:11:55

work with the Special Forces training, Special

1:11:57

Forces out in the United Arab Emirates.

1:12:00

So I was working out there with

1:12:04

like-minded people, guys, lots of

1:12:06

the SF and all

1:12:09

the American Special Forces guys,

1:12:12

and yeah, we were just training them. So that

1:12:14

was a really great transition. So I

1:12:17

did that for, well, something like 11

1:12:20

years. And

1:12:23

then I finished that. Once

1:12:25

I finished that, I

1:12:27

then started doing stuff like

1:12:30

a bit of bodyguarding over there, looking

1:12:33

after billionaires. I even looked after JC

1:12:35

and Beyonce when they did the big

1:12:37

comeback concert in Dubai. That was brilliant,

1:12:39

you know, just because I obviously knew

1:12:41

Dubai. So I was like, they had

1:12:43

their own team come over, obviously, but

1:12:46

you know, a couple of doors

1:12:48

away from them and he was really all around them. So that

1:12:50

was great. And then I went

1:12:53

to Turkey, again, with the news

1:12:55

crews, just as

1:12:57

the earthquake happened, like this time, no,

1:12:59

a year February gone. And

1:13:01

we was actually there when one of the

1:13:04

second earthquake happened. That

1:13:06

was an eye-opener as well. And you saw,

1:13:08

you know, all the humanitarian problems, what was

1:13:10

going on. And then since

1:13:12

then, since I've been back in the UK, I've been doing

1:13:14

a lot of charity work

1:13:17

for veterans, especially homeless veterans,

1:13:19

because there's that many homeless now

1:13:21

in their own city and

1:13:24

around the UK. So I've been doing charity

1:13:26

work, but also a lot of public, and

1:13:28

now I'm starting to do public speaking. And

1:13:30

I've also went to Ukraine as well on

1:13:32

the humanitarian aid, charity events as well, because

1:13:34

I'm a big believer that we should be

1:13:36

back in Ukraine because they're

1:13:39

fighting on our behalf. So you know,

1:13:41

I'm keeping the South busy now. I'm

1:13:43

going to start doing a lot of

1:13:46

public events and talks because what we

1:13:49

don't realise and you keep shy about is

1:13:53

that it's 40 years of either being in

1:13:55

the military or special forces or, you know,

1:13:57

you've had all that. But with that comes

1:13:59

in the... awful lot of experience

1:14:01

and not just military experience, we've

1:14:03

got life experience, aren't we? We've

1:14:06

got an awful lot of life

1:14:08

experience and we ourselves and

1:14:11

emergency workers, we've gone

1:14:14

through it quite

1:14:16

a lot more than a lot of people

1:14:19

and so I think if we can show

1:14:21

people how to be a lot

1:14:23

more resilient because let's face it, we've all

1:14:25

gone through social issues, we've all gone

1:14:27

through emotional issues,

1:14:29

financial issues, psychological issues,

1:14:32

physical issues and the idea

1:14:35

is it's like a military assault course,

1:14:38

you're going into a problem when everything's

1:14:40

going all right, bang something else will

1:14:42

happen and it'll just be resilient. So

1:14:44

I do believe that people with our

1:14:47

sort of background can pass this on,

1:14:49

put on our knowledge and actually help

1:14:51

not only the other veterans or

1:14:55

other civilians going through all

1:14:57

this, especially now in UK,

1:14:59

there's a cost-reliving crisis and

1:15:02

there's a lot of there that's

1:15:04

a fighting that seems to be going backwards

1:15:06

to me, it's like going back to the

1:15:08

1980s, it's as if the

1:15:10

governments want them fighting, they don't want people who look

1:15:12

up where the problem is, they just want people

1:15:15

fighting against each other and they're causing all the

1:15:17

problems and so I just want to

1:15:20

do, you know, I bet

1:15:23

play my part and if I can, I

1:15:25

will help but also I'm

1:15:28

also just going to be writing a book

1:15:30

as well because every subject I've touched on,

1:15:32

let's just quickly

1:15:34

go through it, there's a

1:15:36

massive part that I could just talk about one

1:15:38

tour of duty in Northern Ireland, the first one,

1:15:40

I could talk about that for about, you

1:15:43

know, four or five hours and have you just,

1:15:46

just to tell you how confusing

1:15:48

that was and so

1:15:50

on because even I

1:15:53

know what I've heard and

1:15:55

I've spoken to other Americans, they see something like

1:15:57

Northern Ireland definitely then what we see it as

1:15:59

a British soldier, you're over there and

1:16:01

it's part of Great Britain, it's part

1:16:03

of your Northern Ireland, it's

1:16:06

part of the UK and you

1:16:08

know I know I, whatever the politics

1:16:10

are and everything, that's

1:16:12

that but you were there to protect all sides

1:16:16

Catholic and Protestant, you're there to protect people

1:16:19

and but I remember going there in the

1:16:21

early 80s, I remember the Catholics

1:16:23

at the time they do, you can't

1:16:25

see a Catholic area,

1:16:27

it was more run down, they did seem to

1:16:29

have the worst end of the stick so to

1:16:31

speak and

1:16:34

then it was just human

1:16:36

nature, you got on more with the

1:16:39

Protestant side because they liked, they all

1:16:41

liked their military whereas as

1:16:43

mainly the Catholic side didn't like the military, not all

1:16:45

of them but obviously a small

1:16:47

percentage and that and I

1:16:49

remember at the time that they're saying to me,

1:16:52

why are you here soldier boy and they

1:16:54

say that to everyone but they stopped me

1:16:56

a few times in particular and especially because of

1:16:58

being black, they're saying why are you here because

1:17:01

at the time in UK there's a lot of riots going on,

1:17:03

they're saying they don't even want you, you were

1:17:06

the oppressed in the UK, people don't

1:17:08

want you in that country and they go right and

1:17:10

this was a Catholic thing to me and we're the

1:17:12

same, we're the suppressed, we just want fair rights and

1:17:14

so on and it's got you thinking, you're like God,

1:17:17

I'm starting to do a job and you're a 19

1:17:19

year old and you just

1:17:22

want to look after everyone so

1:17:25

that was such a confusing place and

1:17:27

then even going back the second time in

1:17:29

theatre and even though you've got command

1:17:33

responsibility, it's still very very

1:17:35

confusing and I think it's

1:17:38

confused everybody, even still for all

1:17:41

that political part. I'm

1:17:43

curious about your take on

1:17:45

the whole resiliency issue because

1:17:48

it's obvious that

1:17:51

the military and the special operations

1:17:53

courses, that they test

1:17:55

you for resiliency. Do

1:17:57

you think so? It's not that they necessarily

1:18:00

train you to be resilient but their selection

1:18:02

courses find the people who already

1:18:05

are resilient or predisposed to it do you

1:18:07

feel that there are lessons and if so

1:18:09

what are those lessons that

1:18:12

that where you can take that and

1:18:15

teach people how to be resilient yeah

1:18:18

i do last lessons you know i would say

1:18:22

they'll wonder if it's really sad i

1:18:24

remember saying it like you you grow through

1:18:26

what you go through everything i think these

1:18:28

are positive and everything even i'd i'd i'll

1:18:30

never ever known about okay yeah i got

1:18:33

bullied i i didn't get this job or

1:18:35

something happened yeah we

1:18:37

have a little problems but to me like i

1:18:39

said game pauli that made me

1:18:42

definitely made me more resilient could you you want to

1:18:44

do you want to know what

1:18:47

you what you do you've got to face up

1:18:49

to a bully and that made me now always

1:18:51

say right you have for

1:18:54

instance it's like a storm a sandstorm say

1:18:56

the bar you can't outrun it you're better

1:18:58

off just standing and just going through it

1:19:00

the way that soon as you get through

1:19:02

it that's it you're over and

1:19:04

on if you try outrunning you just gonna waste

1:19:07

outbound eventually is going to get catch up you

1:19:09

can't you can't outrun problems and

1:19:11

they're always going to be there you've just

1:19:13

got to face them and let's face it

1:19:15

that there's that many veterans

1:19:17

have gone through all these life

1:19:19

problems so not only you doing a dangerous job and

1:19:22

you you're we're going

1:19:24

through all that type of emotions

1:19:26

which it doesn't take until years later let's face

1:19:28

it a lot of times but

1:19:30

then you just got normal life problems you know i've

1:19:32

went through emotional problems a better

1:19:34

divorce at a young age and then having

1:19:38

after the kid involved and still

1:19:40

trying to do your job and

1:19:43

and then so and then also went through

1:19:45

financial problems then i went from before starting

1:19:48

a military career and i remember my dad

1:19:50

at sixteen gave me a few pounds so

1:19:52

i started he jump in the

1:19:55

military unit you've got a bed block

1:19:57

and it's a blanket as you know and there you are you

1:19:59

just a number But I had a couple of

1:20:01

pound roll on 16 years later. I've

1:20:03

gone through a bit of divorce. I'm a corporal

1:20:06

Yeah, I'm 50,000 pound in

1:20:08

debt because of yeah, because of things

1:20:11

what went on It wasn't my problem.

1:20:13

So not only emotional problems. You're trying

1:20:15

to sort out financial problems, but it's

1:20:17

hard Life is odd,

1:20:19

isn't it? And it's sure you've got to

1:20:21

choose the hardness. You're sorry the savings odd.

1:20:23

Let's face it But

1:20:26

getting in debt side for the you

1:20:28

have to just like that I dug deep

1:20:30

I nearly went the

1:20:32

other way for instance because I remember Now

1:20:35

I'm 32 gone through 16 years

1:20:37

later. I'm rolling in into a base

1:20:39

and I was like

1:20:41

shit. I haven't got a bed

1:20:43

block, but I just got you know, I got

1:20:46

quilt I've got my own little room and you've

1:20:48

got all the larger were single and that living

1:20:50

in the room or someone I mean in the

1:20:52

in the building someone divorced. I'm like shit I

1:20:55

am now like a was 16 But

1:20:58

at least then I had a few quid in my

1:21:01

pocket Well now I've got 50 grand a debt and

1:21:03

I've got it Right going on

1:21:05

back home and I've still got this military career

1:21:07

To get on with and all your mates want

1:21:09

to is just take you out and get your

1:21:11

piss Yeah, you know I mean and forget the

1:21:13

world and you can you can get into that

1:21:17

When you get the time obviously because you're way busy, but

1:21:19

when you aren't that's what I can see how people

1:21:22

Could hit the bottle could put that gun to the head

1:21:24

because you know it Emotional

1:21:27

problems guys can get through Other

1:21:30

problems and grief and then other

1:21:32

military type issues, but then suddenly

1:21:34

you get it with emotional problems

1:21:38

Family problems about there it can with Terrible

1:21:41

things on your mind, but I went the other

1:21:43

way. I find right. Okay I know

1:21:45

which way this is going to go if I just hit the bottle

1:21:47

and just trying to Go and be

1:21:49

better interested. I just then right bang fitness

1:21:51

fitness fitness fitness. I'm in a base I've

1:21:53

got a gym open 24-7. I just happened

1:21:56

to be on the counter terrorist team. So

1:21:58

it's based in UK and was busy I

1:22:00

just like just at any time I had before

1:22:03

work I'd be in the gym after

1:22:06

work I was in the gym back at night

1:22:08

and I was just a gym bunny in it

1:22:10

and I over the months and then I got

1:22:12

On a particular good job Away

1:22:15

working, but it saved the money and eventually I

1:22:17

got out of that and as you know You

1:22:19

can get out that rut so financial roots and

1:22:21

as I said social rut to the beginning was

1:22:24

all you know It's part

1:22:26

of life. Yeah, that's either bullying

1:22:28

or Sexism or whatever.

1:22:30

It's always somebody don't go there was

1:22:32

to me. There's always aces in this

1:22:34

world You might not

1:22:37

like because you're a football team because of the yet

1:22:39

the color. Yeah, yeah I've always heard that I've always

1:22:41

had the mentality Like my dad says you get on

1:22:43

with people it doesn't matter It's Matt I was brought

1:22:45

up on a large white estate some of the best

1:22:48

mates will why and I've seen prejudice the other way

1:22:50

As well, you know, it's it's Don't

1:22:53

don't I think now people

1:22:55

sort of make Big problems.

1:22:57

I was a little problems. They see

1:22:59

it We we're in

1:23:02

a culture where everybody's saying off.

1:23:04

He's done that they're looking to blame somebody Instead

1:23:07

of just saying right. I never got that job. Okay, it

1:23:09

might have been because we're not good enough No, it's cuz

1:23:12

I was a woman because I'm overweight because of this

1:23:14

back the other just sometimes you just got a minute

1:23:17

And that yeah, if something's wrong shout it out stand

1:23:19

up for yourself But I always

1:23:21

see the best in people and and

1:23:24

take every everything For

1:23:27

instance, I Not

1:23:29

long ago went back to this village and I

1:23:32

had a woman talks to me and she actually

1:23:34

called me like Like

1:23:37

what's he say? And yes, and she

1:23:39

was really old and she's like then

1:23:42

and I used to have a Negro

1:23:44

live live by me one time and she's talking

1:23:46

about I'm like

1:23:49

God that was just question. No woman. She lives

1:23:51

in this village. She hasn't seen it in two

1:23:54

years Back in them days. She could

1:23:56

have dementia or something, you know made and

1:23:58

it's tough. I even I get I was

1:24:01

a scout leader in Dubai, the

1:24:03

British scouting overseas, because

1:24:06

my son, he went to the Cubs.

1:24:09

I remember filling this form, and

1:24:11

now I haven't been back to the UK for a long time, and

1:24:14

it said, right, you

1:24:16

have to say description of yourself or whatever, and it's tick in

1:24:18

the box, and it said, black,

1:24:22

British, Caribbean, mixed race,

1:24:25

mixed ethnicity. I had about 10 different,

1:24:27

I'm like, I'm just a bloke, and

1:24:31

I'm like, what am I? And I actually said to

1:24:33

someone, I goes, no, I'm off-cast, and this guy goes

1:24:35

to me, you can't say that. This

1:24:38

white guy, he goes, if I said that, I'd

1:24:40

lose my job. What

1:24:42

do you mean? He goes, that went out about 20

1:24:44

years ago. I goes, well, what is it? Is it

1:24:46

mixed race? And he goes, no, you are

1:24:48

now in UK, which is black,

1:24:52

Asian, minority, ethnic. That's what a

1:24:54

black person called in UK now,

1:24:56

BAME. I'm like, what the heck? BAME.

1:25:00

And I'm like, hang on, now, who says this?

1:25:03

Who's labeled me? Who says you are now

1:25:05

BAME? You can't be black anymore. You can't

1:25:08

be colored anymore. You can't be off-cast anymore.

1:25:10

You are now BAME. Who

1:25:12

comes out with these words? And if I didn't

1:25:14

know this, then other people don't know. You

1:25:17

just don't know what to say

1:25:19

in that anymore, and it's not moaning, it's just like,

1:25:21

I have to have a giggle about it, because to

1:25:24

me, you've got, as I said, these

1:25:27

are positive in everything. I

1:25:29

get up in the morning, and my wife says I'm like

1:25:32

a puppy, because

1:25:34

as soon as it's light, I'm up, and I want to

1:25:36

get out. I don't care if it's raining or whatever. I

1:25:38

like to get out and do some type of fitness. I

1:25:40

just do. And just

1:25:43

to me, it's positive. I'm awake. I want

1:25:45

to do something with humans, with bodies. We're

1:25:47

meant to be moving. And

1:25:49

that's always been my attitude. So

1:25:51

we have got an awful lot

1:25:53

of resilience to

1:25:56

pass on to people, especially in the civilian

1:25:58

population now, I think. I

1:26:00

know everybody says that generations are getting

1:26:03

weaker and easier, but they

1:26:05

are getting weaker and easier. And it's just

1:26:07

like sometimes you want to just get great

1:26:10

people and say, right, just common sense. Come

1:26:12

on, let's call it out. And just,

1:26:14

you know, people get on. We all

1:26:16

know what's wrong, what's right. But

1:26:19

get people the benefit of the doubt. Not every

1:26:21

time they're trying to, they're

1:26:25

trying to cause problems for you. And I think

1:26:27

a lot of the times it

1:26:29

comes from above. They just want to create

1:26:31

problems. I think there's not so

1:26:33

much in UK, a race problem. I think it's

1:26:35

a class problem. That's the biggest problem.

1:26:38

People coming up, they're growing up on the class because I, as I

1:26:40

said, I grew up in a white working

1:26:42

class. I was going to say not just as

1:26:44

bad as if you was in the black council

1:26:46

area where there's a lot of black people. They're all

1:26:49

the same. They're all going for these same problems. They're

1:26:51

all skinned. They all haven't got much money. They all

1:26:53

used to jump in the same bathtub and use the

1:26:55

same water. You know, people

1:26:58

are people get on with people and life,

1:27:00

there's always going to be problems in

1:27:03

life. But you just got to get

1:27:05

over them, aren't you? Yeah. Like you

1:27:07

said. And to me,

1:27:09

looking back, I got back in

1:27:12

touch with my, because I lost touch with

1:27:14

my old unit when I was faced

1:27:16

in the military. But then I've

1:27:18

recently got back in touch with lots of people, especially moving

1:27:20

back to UK. I remember

1:27:22

seeing a platoon, a platoon

1:27:25

photograph and somebody's telling

1:27:27

me, and then looking at the guys,

1:27:29

I'm like, wow, he committed suicide. He

1:27:31

committed suicide. He committed suicide. He is

1:27:34

now not lost the plot. I'd

1:27:37

say lost the plot. You know, he's always

1:27:39

in and out. It means the

1:27:41

sex section is really out. Yeah.

1:27:44

I've got a few of them. And I look at this

1:27:46

platoon and there's that many of them and a couple of

1:27:48

guys have gone in prison. I'm like, wow. If

1:27:51

you get 30 guys from just a normal area

1:27:54

society of that class, say

1:27:57

in the in the in

1:28:00

job or different in that factory and

1:28:02

you all got together years later, it

1:28:05

wouldn't be like that

1:28:07

in the military. But if you look at it in the military,

1:28:09

it's sort of mirrored in

1:28:14

every unit. That's what it's like in the British

1:28:16

military anyway. There's that many veterans

1:28:19

suffering, especially the

1:28:23

suicide rates. And I know

1:28:25

it's the same in America or even worse in

1:28:27

America. I think it'd be worse in America because

1:28:29

let's face it, you've got weapons

1:28:31

so easily at hand. It's been times

1:28:33

here, you know, when you can see

1:28:35

people have actually said they

1:28:38

really had bad times and they just

1:28:40

wanted to talk like top in the south,

1:28:42

but it's a bit more difficult just to

1:28:44

walk out and walk in

1:28:46

front of a train or pass out. Then

1:28:48

if you've got a pistol there and you

1:28:50

really depressed and bang. So yeah,

1:28:53

a really grim sort

1:28:55

of statistic. That

1:28:57

I've been told is, you know, American soldiers,

1:28:59

when they, you know, sadly take their own

1:29:01

lives in the United States, it's

1:29:04

usually a firearm. You're right. But

1:29:06

then when you see, when they're deployed

1:29:08

overseas to places like Japan and they're

1:29:10

in Okinawa, suddenly it turns to

1:29:12

hangings. And

1:29:15

yeah, it's

1:29:17

sad. And I

1:29:20

think we could do a much better job with it. Yeah.

1:29:23

And an effort, especially

1:29:26

our, you know,

1:29:28

our governments, but I

1:29:30

do know for a fact, your veterans,

1:29:33

you are looked after a lot better

1:29:35

than the British military veterans, your VA,

1:29:37

your medical cover and that. Because like

1:29:40

I said, to the last 11 years,

1:29:42

I was working with, it

1:29:45

was basically an American military consultancy

1:29:48

firm. So I was working for the

1:29:51

military, you declare it private

1:29:55

and it's called Shamal Solutions and it's

1:29:57

military consultants. So I was

1:29:59

employed. by American fame but there

1:30:01

was like X British Special Forces as

1:30:03

well as American Special Forces for more different

1:30:06

special forces groups and then some other guys

1:30:08

and depending on what job you were doing

1:30:10

and speaking with you guys and about the

1:30:13

different pensions and about the veterans and about

1:30:15

how you you get looked after and other

1:30:17

armies it's let's face it it's

1:30:20

quite disgusting and what gets

1:30:22

me though is the British

1:30:24

public they it's that they

1:30:27

look after the British vets more than

1:30:29

anybody else to charities because the British

1:30:31

public love the military and it's as

1:30:33

if the government say wow we know

1:30:36

that their own

1:30:38

people they will provide charities for them

1:30:44

it's like I just did recently I

1:30:46

sleep out for the owners to veterans and

1:30:48

stuff like that and

1:30:51

you know you're raising money just

1:30:54

local communities are for a room

1:30:57

not just veterans but almost this is in

1:31:00

this is modern society it should be going

1:31:02

on yeah yeah yeah the government should step

1:31:04

in and fill that role rather than just

1:31:06

relying on charities to do it

1:31:10

but no it is good to hear

1:31:13

though that the British public and is

1:31:15

so supportive I remember walking around London

1:31:17

and like going into bookshops and

1:31:19

it's like America in the sense like there's got to

1:31:21

be like a whole display of books

1:31:23

of like how awesome the British were in World

1:31:26

War two it's like it's clear that there's that

1:31:28

that affinity is there the kind of the

1:31:30

same way it is in the United States but

1:31:33

that one thing one thing what really gets me though

1:31:35

is I want to find about

1:31:37

in the States is the flag you

1:31:39

love you that's you that's your country that's your

1:31:42

culture it's flown everywhere

1:31:44

yeah states and

1:31:46

then UK people oh

1:31:48

god they seem to get annoyed I've got my

1:31:50

flag there I've got a flag post outside my

1:31:52

own support with the fact that

1:31:55

the Union flag flying I think everybody

1:31:57

sure that it just that over

1:31:59

the years You had

1:32:01

years ago, you know, small right wing

1:32:05

units who used to walk out

1:32:07

the Union Jack and try and kidnap that Union Jack

1:32:09

and say it's like fascism.

1:32:13

And I was a young soldier there and I'm like, no, no,

1:32:15

you know, this is back in the day, did have

1:32:17

like National Front marches and everything. I'd see these guys

1:32:19

and all that and just

1:32:23

a bunch of thugs basically. And

1:32:25

then carrying that Union Jack. But that didn't stop me wearing

1:32:27

a pride. That's my Union Jack. And then

1:32:30

you've got like the far

1:32:32

left people saying, oh, the Union Jack,

1:32:34

that represents slavery and

1:32:36

the empire and what happened

1:32:38

250 years ago. I'm

1:32:41

like, come off it. How stupid,

1:32:43

you know, it's in the weird in empire.

1:32:46

You don't get an empire by urge or saying, excuse me,

1:32:48

can I take over? You know what I mean? Tell

1:32:51

me what was, get over it. But it's

1:32:53

our country. We should be proud of our

1:32:55

country. And most

1:32:57

of the population are and

1:32:59

it's just that, I

1:33:01

don't know, a few politicians, they just want to

1:33:05

not please everyone. They seem to want to

1:33:08

please the minority, you know, or I don't

1:33:10

know some set minorities say we shouldn't

1:33:12

be having the we shouldn't be celebrating our

1:33:14

culture or celebrating being

1:33:18

being who we are. So

1:33:20

being having an empire. Yeah, we had

1:33:22

an empire. So what people

1:33:24

did some talk about. Taking out the

1:33:26

British Empire medal. How pathetic just because

1:33:28

it has empire in it. I

1:33:31

don't know. It's as if people are

1:33:33

looking for problems. Yeah. Yeah. I

1:33:36

know. The problems. Yeah. It's

1:33:39

got to go back and really get now. Yeah. Why

1:33:41

even back 200 years live for problems? Yeah.

1:33:44

We got 20. Yeah. Yeah.

1:33:47

Yeah. Yeah. There's

1:33:49

no problems going on. So, you know, I have a laugh about

1:33:51

it and just enjoy life and have a positive about everything and

1:33:54

just see the best in everyone. You know,

1:33:56

you make your mate no matter what. what

1:34:00

one subject that i kind of uh... missed

1:34:02

uh... as we're talking melvin that i want

1:34:04

to go back and hit up with you

1:34:07

which is the are the hunt for the

1:34:09

piff wicks in uh... in the balkans which

1:34:12

is but you know pretty righteous mission that

1:34:14

you guys did going after war criminals uh...

1:34:17

could be tell a little bit about that yeah

1:34:19

well most my time is

1:34:21

that to be in in the in

1:34:23

the units is independent special forces five

1:34:26

after you've been dealt with

1:34:28

it either terrorist and

1:34:30

then say gents enemy

1:34:33

combatants or petwicks and

1:34:35

that's personal identity for war crimes and

1:34:37

these people the what

1:34:40

date that the atrocities they did and

1:34:42

and uh... bosnia you know

1:34:45

at this is not just that bosnian said

1:34:47

that the the muslims the croats they

1:34:49

all did it but obviously the cities of the bigger

1:34:52

the bigger party and it's just

1:34:54

shows you where neighbors can be

1:34:56

getting on for generations and suddenly that's

1:35:01

you know something happens and then the

1:35:04

fact that i bought what starts again and to

1:35:06

build up in the past and that's not and

1:35:10

they have to take retaliation before you know it's

1:35:12

a chopping people's ads often is not the better

1:35:14

going on and it was terrible

1:35:17

and yeah so persons in debt to

1:35:19

war crimes we actually to

1:35:23

collect a lot of them in captured a lot of them and

1:35:26

we had specific missions and yeah that

1:35:28

was really really

1:35:30

interesting way usually

1:35:32

on them type of jobs you knew

1:35:35

well in advance what your

1:35:38

target so it wasn't you know

1:35:40

you had a lot of planning time for it and

1:35:43

then away ago and i remember being on

1:35:45

the job where literally yet you

1:35:47

just wait for it go down and then i

1:35:49

was shopping at the supermarket then you get

1:35:51

the call then you in the camp flash

1:35:55

the bang you've gone away forty eight

1:35:57

hours you back and i'm watching soccer

1:35:59

on TV and yet you've been involved in

1:36:02

a really intense mission. So

1:36:12

that was the difference. You would just bang

1:36:14

it in and out. Any

1:36:18

of those captures that really stand out in your

1:36:20

mind? Yeah, there's

1:36:22

a few of them, to tell you the truth. And

1:36:30

sometimes you have to... I

1:36:33

can't say names and all that because it's in danger in

1:36:35

the south. Sure.

1:36:38

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by a truck, call Colombo Law. club

1:38:00

because you've done everything in your power to

1:38:03

apprehend somebody you know and

1:38:06

that's what you can that's really close and personal

1:38:08

yeah yeah but yeah

1:38:12

but they said

1:38:15

that they got that just deserves

1:38:17

that the pepwix

1:38:19

and it's going up and again

1:38:22

into you look these many like

1:38:25

it get going on around the world now

1:38:27

yeah

1:38:31

yeah and then there's many other different missions

1:38:33

what like I said it's just like before

1:38:36

you know it I'm

1:38:38

ever joining in 94 and then the given

1:38:42

in 95 who's on the counter terrorist team

1:38:44

and then we just get told okay this

1:38:46

weekend because you always work in the weekends

1:38:49

because that's when the police get there over

1:38:51

time and you go down and you practice

1:38:53

on them on the all the embassies you

1:38:55

practice in the main areas where you think

1:38:57

is gonna get taken on you go to

1:38:59

the main airports you practice on the main

1:39:01

airport so you know when

1:39:03

if there's a big terrorist incident you know where

1:39:05

to go and you know you have to practice on

1:39:08

different planes trains and everything that's common

1:39:10

knowledge and just in case there's

1:39:12

a major incident in the UK so this weekend

1:39:14

before we was having off next minute we was

1:39:16

told no you're not we

1:39:19

had these notes this this weekend we

1:39:21

thought was one is only weekends we weren't

1:39:23

going to be working and then and the

1:39:26

reason was because it was princess Diana

1:39:29

and Ari and William

1:39:31

so it was one of their birthday so they'd just come

1:39:34

down to the area said and then you take them all

1:39:36

out and show them all this stuff and that and they

1:39:38

were they were regular visitors the Royals

1:39:41

there for that but it was amazing

1:39:43

cuz I oh okay next minute you're

1:39:45

chatting to princess Diane and

1:39:49

you doing live live showing them live

1:39:51

CQB and stuff like you know I

1:39:53

don't get that no more me on

1:39:55

the weekend with a day's no with

1:39:57

two days notice you shared that picture

1:40:00

with me didn't you? Yeah that

1:40:02

was the one in 1995. Did Princess

1:40:04

Diana do any of the stuff

1:40:08

in the shoot house where you had to go in and rescue

1:40:10

her? No they were

1:40:12

all just watching and it's really funny because

1:40:15

the watches all go in and you know

1:40:17

it's live rounds so you've

1:40:19

got live ammunition there and there's no safety on

1:40:22

you've got your safety off because obviously the area

1:40:24

and they're just showing you and they've got all

1:40:26

targets up and obviously these rubber walls so you

1:40:28

go in there and you fire and so on

1:40:30

and you do it nice and fast and then

1:40:33

what happened with all of this is they tend

1:40:35

all the lights off and they're explaining the change

1:40:37

of targets you're around and you're explaining to the

1:40:39

princess and everything there and also

1:40:41

we can do this every night and as we're