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1:00

and conditions. And

1:17

you know, if you've been enjoying the show, we really

1:19

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1:21

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1:23

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So we have Patreon memberships that start

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that. So go in and check us

1:53

out at patreon.com/the Team House. Hello,

1:56

everyone. Welcome to another episode of

1:58

Eyes On. I'm Andy Milburn. Jason

2:01

Lyons. Dimitri Tacos.

2:03

Hello. Hey

2:05

Dee, so today I think we've

2:07

got unfortunately lots of action in

2:09

the Middle East to talk about. Do you

2:11

want to kick off about

2:14

the strike in Damascus yesterday?

2:16

Yeah, I mean everyone

2:18

pretty much saw what happened already now. I mean

2:21

Israel's kind of kind of brazen airstrike

2:24

on the Iranian consulate that's like

2:26

right next door the Iranian embassy

2:29

which is also right next door the Canadian embassy

2:33

killing seven you

2:35

know IRGC. Yeah,

2:37

yeah it was look

2:39

this was the you know jump

2:41

to the chase this was the

2:45

most significant strike

2:47

that the Israelis have

2:49

conducted on Quds Force

2:52

like ever. The top

2:54

three field commanders within

2:57

Quds Force were killed I'll

2:59

say that again the top three field commanders Hussein

3:03

Amenoula who was who

3:05

was he was chief of staff for

3:07

Syria and Lebanon and

3:10

then Rahimi Hajj

3:12

Rahimi who's a you know

3:14

to say a Quds Force

3:16

guy is controversial well Rahimi

3:18

is particularly controversial because his

3:20

mandate is Palestine right and

3:22

so a lot

3:24

of discussion about whether he knew

3:26

about these attacks whether he was

3:28

involved in them or not the

3:30

Israelis were convinced that that that

3:32

Hamas did at least inform him

3:34

inform that attacks were coming they

3:36

may not Hezbollah and Iran may

3:38

have not realized this scale but

3:41

nevertheless soon became aware of them and reinforced

3:43

them a hundred percent so this is kind

3:46

of revenge for that and the

3:49

third guy I'm third guy

3:51

killed General

3:54

Zahidi or a these rays call

3:56

him Ma'adabi he's actually

3:59

he's a former head of

4:01

all Quds Force in Syria

4:03

and Lebanon. And

4:06

he is actually rumored

4:08

to be Kanye's successor.

4:10

Kanye is the

4:12

head of Quds Force. So very, very

4:15

significant. I'll pause there, guys, to see

4:17

if you have any questions. Yeah,

4:19

I was gonna start to drag you back to the

4:22

beginning, but for those who don't know, can you give

4:24

a little background on what Quds Force is? Yeah,

4:27

absolutely. And this

4:29

term gets used a lot.

4:31

So look, just by way

4:34

of creds, okay, this doesn't make

4:36

me an expert, but I'm probably

4:38

one of the few US military

4:40

guys I would venture perhaps the only

4:42

one since, aside

4:46

from the hostages, who spent time in

4:48

a Iranian jail. Okay, and now I've

4:50

got to qualify that. Very brief period

4:52

of time being questioned by the Revolutionary

4:55

Guard, as they were called then, back

4:58

soon after, well, you know, 11

5:01

years after the revolution, the beginning of the war with

5:03

Iran. I

5:06

was in Tehran, taken off a bus and questioned

5:08

by them. Again,

5:11

that doesn't make me an expert, but it does. It

5:15

removes, or any

5:17

reservations that may have about what an

5:19

evil organization they are. It

5:22

gives many other people at the time were

5:24

disappearing. Anyway, Quds of the Chase, the

5:28

Revolutionary Guards, the

5:30

Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps, to give it

5:33

its full title, you hear it referred

5:35

to as the IRGC. I

5:37

think of them as kind of, you know, the

5:41

Islamic Revolution's version of the

5:43

Republican Guard. You

5:46

know, every revolution has

5:48

a small group of the Jacobins in

5:50

the French Revolution, a small group of

5:53

activists. And the Revolutionary Guard were that,

5:55

and they then became the de facto

5:59

administration. regime of Iran backing

6:01

up the Supreme Leader Ali Khomeini who

6:03

became the Supreme Leader in 1989. So

6:05

you see now you know a lot

6:07

of these guys are kind of the

6:09

same age as me

6:12

and Jason you know old enough to

6:14

be Dee's grandfather and they

6:16

but they were students you know in the

6:18

70s back in late 70s you know you name

6:21

it. Ahmed Dimajad, Hussein,

6:24

Hrinsa Sulamani,

6:26

Sranziran remember his name all of these

6:29

guys and now they're at the top

6:31

of the Iranian rank structure. Now Quds

6:33

Force is kind of a subdivision of

6:35

the IRGC and they are

6:38

focused they are you know

6:40

they've been classified as a

6:42

terrorist organization by

6:45

the US State Department with good

6:47

reason. But Quds Force is responsible

6:50

for the Iranian regime's operations overseas

6:52

which they conduct primarily through the

6:54

use of proxies such

6:57

as Hezbollah such as quite

6:59

improbably Hamas and I say improbably because

7:01

Hamas is of course a Sunni organization

7:03

but the Iranians were happy

7:06

to hold their nose in this case

7:08

and support Hamas and then subsequently leave

7:10

them out to dry because Hamas is

7:12

doing their bidding and as long as

7:14

it is Sunni Arabs and Israelis being

7:16

killed this all plays very well to

7:18

the Iranians but now they've lost three

7:20

of their top guys this

7:23

they have to take action and

7:26

you know and this is this

7:28

is what is causing some

7:31

obviously within Israel now

7:33

the this comes

7:35

amidst massive demonstrations against

7:38

Netanyahu it is many

7:42

feel a

7:45

well they I mean it's hard

7:47

to deny it's an escalation many

7:49

feel that there are political motives

7:52

for this escalation that it is

7:54

you know that that Netanyahu if

7:56

you can really really

7:59

Solidify. On. Or.

8:02

A. Continue. Down this

8:04

polarization pass and and to continue

8:06

this campaign rally the right behind

8:08

them on it gets a Pc

8:10

on a fan the and and

8:12

and Canada Jewish vote. Ah he

8:15

he will take this you know

8:17

to the hilt and that is

8:19

what's worrying the vast majority of

8:21

Israelis right now who don't feel

8:23

that this is the ticket that

8:25

they bought when they when they

8:28

subscribed to the War on Hamas

8:30

over to back over Judas. Gonna.

8:34

Sing yeah so like up my understanding as

8:36

I could force is basically like and I

8:38

are just sees how I ran can on

8:40

a project a shower because like they don't

8:42

really have a military that same and of

8:44

that's right. That's. Right! And and

8:47

it's masterful because they are you know

8:49

think of hold a bumbling assets we

8:51

may to to build advisor type units

8:53

and right there in the Army and

8:56

the Us Marine Corps very ad hoc

8:58

com. Group. Of people when it's

9:00

not considered a very. Eat. You

9:03

know when things we've always struggled

9:05

with conventional forces as they went

9:07

to operate as battalions and brigades

9:09

and divisions ah but not training

9:12

for indigenous tribes said is so

9:14

on sexy rights but that that

9:16

is the core. Of. Gray

9:18

Zone operations using that time I

9:20

know, but that is dispatched Conflict.

9:23

Everyone uses props, everyone's doing it,

9:25

you know and we should get

9:27

on board. Mozart Group was a

9:29

perfect opportunity. Guys, you will miss

9:31

next Arms, but some food stores

9:33

are very adept. At.

9:36

Guessing. ah as at working

9:38

with proxies you know they live they

9:40

live in the country on the day

9:42

they work with of things work closely

9:45

with them they it's i'm not saying

9:47

from moment that they identify with them

9:49

they use and the other tools but

9:51

they do it very well very well

9:53

indeed and so with just a small

9:55

relatively small group of people in a

9:58

good source just two thousand guy They

10:01

can conduct operations that are having

10:03

a catastrophic, not a catastrophic, but

10:06

a global effect. Think about what the Houthis

10:08

are doing that we've talked about here. Hamas

10:11

is the least capable of all.

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and conditions. Of Kuzfoss's

11:51

proxies. Hezbollah is the

11:53

most capable, and that is what everyone is worried

11:55

about now, because Iran won't declare war

11:57

on Israel. Iran's not going to declare war on

11:59

Israel. strike back in the same

12:01

way. But using

12:04

Hezbollah, Iran certainly has

12:06

the ability to

12:08

inflict serious

12:11

damage on Israel and

12:13

it's a question of math. It's a

12:15

question of math precision fires. Hezbollah has

12:17

an arsenal now many times the size

12:19

of the one that it had in

12:21

2006 and even then was able to

12:23

overwhelm iron

12:28

dome. Paul said, see

12:30

if you guys have any questions. It's

12:32

a really, this is

12:35

a very interesting, important and

12:38

quite scary flexion point. And

12:41

so Quds is, and this is

12:44

my own ignorance, has always been

12:46

a hands-off force or

12:48

have they ever been

12:50

in direct combat? Well they

12:53

are occasionally involved in, I

12:55

mean they are involved. I

12:58

mean they absolutely, they don't

13:02

have this, they don't have

13:04

this artificial division between

13:06

a fighter and a system and a

13:08

company, right? No, of course. I mean

13:10

they, but the point is they don't

13:13

need to. They do what they need

13:15

to do to set the example to

13:17

rally support. I'll give you an example.

13:19

For instance,

13:24

in Gaza, in Gaza,

13:28

Israeli intelligence, not officially, but Israeli

13:30

intelligence claims that they're picking up

13:32

Farsi in Gaza, Quds force

13:35

guys helping direct

13:37

Hamas operations, all right? And

13:40

that is the sort of help that they

13:42

will give, you know, right up to, yeah,

13:44

right up to the X, but

13:47

the point is they, there's always,

13:50

and you know this of course Jason, there's

13:52

always kind of a, they Always

13:56

give Iran the plausible

13:58

deniability, right? I'm and

14:00

that is their strength in only this

14:03

series is the Source is a master

14:05

for organization in that sense it it

14:07

is. It's a dense, very competent, very

14:09

efficient. They have their thoughts help Some

14:11

quite hilarious fuck ups at times are

14:14

bad for the most part they they

14:16

mean business and they do business. You

14:18

know and know This is a very

14:20

rare successful strike because they a very

14:22

good at feel craft com by the

14:25

way to skinning use from the Israelis

14:27

and I synthesis report in on. Us

14:30

media has seen use. who's a

14:32

senior has bought official also killed

14:34

in the strikes see thought guy

14:36

and got into an official from

14:38

P I Jane. On and

14:41

photo of the idea. On.

14:43

Palestinian Islamic Jihad who are involved

14:45

in the fighting in thousand ah

14:47

in support of Hamas. So

14:51

that problem that strikes. I'm

14:54

going to go out on a limb

14:56

and say that those names were known

14:58

before that. Wow. That.

15:00

Was carried out. Or.

15:03

I thought you like are you know I

15:05

answer some of them at least but I'm

15:08

going adventure the say given as their names

15:10

in the stats serves that it was known

15:12

all the names on that target were known.

15:15

Yeah. Absolutely be a mean these

15:17

guys. Disease.

15:20

Because it's would have been. Top of

15:22

the time again this them in the the income

15:24

source and so they're on their own. Target.

15:27

List to I, the and and so

15:29

and and that's a really good point

15:32

tastes and you know how it is

15:34

when something happens. Everyone assumes that the

15:36

proximate cause is something that happened broken.

15:39

For that I'll give you the case

15:41

in point or right. So the the

15:43

destruction on that does a drone attacks

15:45

on the you know two days ago.

15:48

And. then right after this the strike

15:50

on damascus well this is you know

15:53

from together strikes said easily you know

15:55

means that this had been planned arm

15:57

and they would just waiting for for

16:00

a reason and the reason was probably

16:02

as you know the time, location, the

16:05

trigger which had nothing to do with

16:07

retaliation for any other event. How often

16:09

do you get these seven individuals in

16:11

a room? It would have been a

16:13

high level decision obviously but

16:16

it just seemed probably like too juicy a

16:18

target to pass up. Now

16:22

as we've all seen these targeted killings,

16:24

they rarely have a good effect. They've

16:26

formed up pretty much. We

16:29

all feel good. Oh great but you name it. What

16:33

is the blowback look like now

16:35

after these guys have been taken

16:37

out and stuff like that? What

16:41

does the response from Iran look like? Is

16:43

it just through Hezbollah? I

16:46

would guess first of all there

16:48

has to be a response to

16:50

Hezbollah but it wouldn't just

16:55

be Hezbollah. There will probably be renewed

16:57

drone attacks on southern

16:59

Israel from the Houthis but

17:02

certainly. What

17:04

would be interesting is to

17:07

know what the discussion is

17:09

that is taking place now between

17:11

Nasrallah and Khomeini. By

17:14

the way, Nasrallah, Hassan Nasrallah is the

17:17

head of Lebanese Hezbollah and

17:21

this warrants a whole show by itself.

17:24

Online is Nasrallah

17:27

is not a Lebanese

17:29

patriot but he's not certainly not an

17:32

Iranian stooch either. He

17:34

is about himself and he's about Lebanese

17:36

Hezbollah. The

17:38

problem with inciting a war

17:41

with Israel is that it

17:45

sets him back in time. He's

17:48

got a plan and his plan is

17:50

that the state of Lebanon becomes essentially

17:52

Hezbollah's state. He's a long

17:54

way along that path. We talked about this when you

17:56

look at members of The Cabinet

17:58

there. Upon the

18:01

military's having with his ball or infiltration.

18:03

I'm all of these things. So he's

18:05

almost say he has built up his

18:07

arsenal which was so devastated and the

18:09

two thousand and six or he's he's

18:11

built it up to a point. Last

18:14

on. Yeah. It's you

18:16

know, when we talk existential

18:18

threat and very nearly existential

18:20

threat. Me, not existential, but

18:22

I'm kinda can certainly has

18:24

that has the capability to

18:26

inflict tinsel thousands of casualties

18:29

on the. As for the

18:31

population. At. Seducing.

18:34

Yes, He will become a global hero. But.

18:36

His bala will take a

18:38

slacking. The Israelis were stuff

18:41

stumbling on sometimes he was

18:43

happening stumbling when it comes

18:45

to targeting in Gaza, but

18:47

they have everything in Lebanon,

18:49

Diode, then they past. Forty.

18:52

Years literally to do this or right.

18:54

They cannot shit all the time. They

18:56

don't have enough ammunition, it'll the targets

18:58

but they will try. And

19:00

that is one has fallen. those and

19:03

a backlash. Ah, I'm. Will.

19:05

Probably go against Hezbollah and so he

19:07

he he is walking a fine line.

19:09

he wants in as he senses that

19:12

the in the Arab streets but you

19:14

know that a see a science ah

19:16

it's everyone is really outrage this this

19:19

level of anger in the Arab world

19:21

that the I don't we haven't seen

19:23

in our lifetimes. ah and it's easy

19:25

to overlook it. From. Where we

19:28

are but it but it is as a

19:30

it is. It has gathered

19:32

momentum. That is quite our findings.

19:34

Nasrallah realizes said some now he's

19:36

courts and the Israelis had just

19:38

pushed the Iranians right into kind

19:41

of ah, openly having to to

19:43

demand retribution. So everything seems set

19:45

for a Hezbollah strike into Israel

19:47

of a poor sap from them.

19:50

Are given everything you just said, You think

19:52

there's a yeah? It's. Plausible than a

19:55

stronger would say. Know. That.

19:57

You've alfie sold a we need to new

19:59

I. That's the ten million dollar

20:01

question Jason and the answer is no one

20:03

knows not even you know If you talk

20:06

to Israeli intelligence guys who have kind of

20:09

Who have lived in this Rala for that

20:11

entire careers and there are guys like that?

20:14

And women and and they will tell you they don't

20:17

know you know he is and

20:19

that's Rala is He's

20:22

a very very smart guy, but

20:24

he also plays his cards quite

20:26

close to his chest. That's why he's still alive

20:30

We don't know we don't know in and

20:32

everyone since this kicked off I say everyone

20:35

but you know all the pundits have been

20:37

asking will he say no to Iran does

20:39

he have enough? Laster power

20:41

confidence by himself to do

20:43

so and we will see

20:48

And so You

20:51

know it seems go ahead number of other

20:53

things taking place to be this

20:55

morning. There was an attack on Well

20:58

first of all you know relations between Israel and

21:00

United States are the worst that they have ever

21:02

been Again, you know I

21:04

stick to facts on this show For

21:07

the first time ever guys

21:09

polls are showing the US

21:11

population public disagree

21:14

with With what something

21:16

that the Israelis are doing foreign policy

21:18

how they're handling Gaza, right? And

21:23

you know this net and y'all who's not

21:25

to the president Net

21:27

and y'all who is banking on a

21:30

Trump victory, but then Trump the other

21:32

day said hey Israel just

21:34

needs to finish this you know he seemed

21:36

impatient of course he is a Republican stem

21:39

I mean the Republicans don't want this

21:41

probably going on either my penis that

21:44

everyone realized that this is severely

21:46

damaging to us prestige

21:49

or View in the world and

21:51

we don't have a lot of wass to depend

21:53

on right now and we're being dragged into

21:55

the toilet That's one argument, but

21:57

it's hard to argue against to be honest with you So

22:02

what I wanted to do, you know, and then the

22:04

world at the same time at the same time, we're

22:06

giving them, you know, 18 billion dollars in military aid.

22:09

Yeah, what's it 3.6 billion dollars a year?

22:11

You know, but they're given like the new

22:14

aid package right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And if

22:16

the, you know, the point is, but we

22:18

have been giving them three point, you know,

22:20

billions of dollars every year. And there

22:23

was a very funny Saturday night live sketch in Israel.

22:25

They've got that version of Saturday night live. Where,

22:31

you know, they've got this kind of playing

22:33

Netanyahu and he's like, no, tell

22:35

the goings to fuck off. You know, tell them, you know,

22:37

tell them to take that three, you know, 3.6 billion dollars

22:39

and shove it up their ass, you know. So

22:44

this was kind of a realization among the

22:46

segment of the Israeli population who

22:49

have close ties with the United States

22:51

and we don't want to alienate United

22:53

States. We feel more in the kin with United

22:55

States than we do. And

22:59

then you get this World Food Kitchen strike,

23:01

a case seven killed US,

23:05

Canada, Australia, Poland and the

23:07

United Kingdom, aside from the usual Palestinians. All right. Whichever

23:09

way you look at it. His, you

23:13

know, his,

23:15

his what the news is

23:17

reporting that the convoy,

23:19

give me a second, that it was

23:22

that it was coordinated. That

23:24

the

23:26

coordinates

23:29

were set in, blah, blah, blah, blah.

23:31

But it was still strumptious really said

23:33

that they were investigating initially they said

23:35

that it was operating

23:37

outside curfew in an area not coordinated, but

23:39

now they apparently are, according to the latest,

23:42

yeah, admitting that yes, it was coordinated. So,

23:46

so here's another potential

23:51

rift between the US and Israel, you

23:53

know, I mean, none of us

23:55

like the thought that Israel or

23:57

any country can kill our citizens without. without

24:00

even asking. You know, I know that

24:02

sounds ridiculous, but I mean, because they'd

24:04

asked me to said, No, you fucking

24:07

cannot kill right now. He's working for

24:09

the World Food Kitchen, by the way,

24:11

you know, another insight

24:14

I have here is having

24:16

having driven, you know, food,

24:19

humanitarian assistance under bombardment

24:22

for the World Food Kitchen. Obviously,

24:25

I'm not completely unbiased

24:28

in this, in this

24:30

story. Any questions on that? Well, I mean, like,

24:32

I think it's okay to not be a

24:36

little biased because they killed fucking aid workers.

24:38

They didn't kill like, you

24:40

know, Hamas guys hiding in a hospital that

24:43

like, you know, whether it's what they do

24:45

know, it was aid workers that was clearly

24:47

marked as coordinated. What do

24:49

we do? I mean, you know, it's supposed to be the best

24:51

military in the world. I get it's war and it's a fucking

24:53

disaster and it's mayhem and it's chaos. But

24:56

like, do they even give a shit about how

24:58

like, the world, honestly,

25:01

the United States perceives them? Are they just going to

25:03

keep doing like what they're going to do? And that's

25:05

that. Yeah. I'm

25:08

gonna ask you a question, just very quick,

25:10

just some more stuff coming in. Sure. So

25:12

the despite

25:15

this is coming from the World Food

25:18

Kitchen, Aaron Gore, CEO, despite coordinating movements

25:20

with the idea of the convoy was

25:22

hit as it was leaving Daro Bala

25:24

warehouse where the team had unloaded

25:27

more than 100 tons of humanitarian food, a

25:29

port to Gaza on maritime route, reports on

25:31

that it was hit actually three times from

25:35

Aaron Gore. This is not only attack

25:37

against World Food Kitchen attack on humanitarian

25:39

organizations. Hit

25:41

three times. What happened? They didn't get it right

25:43

the first time. I don't know. Who knows? Anyway,

25:45

the you know, we'll see. I'm not

25:47

I'm not dismissing I'm saying this is

25:50

Yeah, this is this is serious. It

25:52

seems almost as though Netanyahu is not

25:54

Netanyahu is doing but bridge

25:56

burning things. Right. And if you've seen

25:59

the movie the dog, you

26:01

might be thinking along those lines.

26:03

It's quite concerning. But what's

26:05

the play? What's the strategy in

26:07

doing that? To

26:10

not have any allies left? Oh,

26:12

no, no, no. To

26:15

Netanyahu, this

26:17

all makes perfect sense. By

26:20

the way, it's really Israelian information. They

26:22

haven't accepted their responsibility for the Damascus site.

26:24

But it does make

26:27

sense. So you think about it. You

26:31

push Iran into war. You

26:34

recover Gaza right for the

26:36

state of Israel, which

26:39

is what Netanyahu's base is pushing

26:41

for, to colonize Gaza and make

26:43

it part of Israel. That's the

26:46

dog whistle piece in the

26:48

background here. But it's quite

26:50

openly discussed among members

26:54

of the right wing in Israel. So

26:57

he's going to satisfy the Israeli

26:59

extremists, the

27:01

ultra-orthodox, who are also, by

27:04

the way, calling on him

27:06

to destroy Al-Aqsa and rebuild the temple.

27:09

I'm wondering where this is going to

27:11

end. But the ultra-orthodox don't fight either.

27:14

Exactly. And that is also causing

27:16

internal problems in Israel. They are

27:18

good at beating up

27:22

or shooting, reportedly. This is

27:24

the argument from

27:27

many in Israel. Hey, these guys push

27:29

us to the brink of war. They

27:31

cause problems with the Palestinians. And yet

27:33

they don't have to deal with the

27:35

consequences because they don't have to serve.

27:38

And Netanyahu has fought

27:40

against removing

27:42

that exemption. The Supreme

27:45

Court has

27:47

said that the exemption is no

27:49

longer valid. So Netanyahu is

27:51

dragging his feet on how to implement this,

27:53

saying it's going to take a decade to

27:55

bring these guys into the military. So you

27:57

can see how this resistance is going to

27:59

end. in his building. But

28:01

they are Netanyahu's base. And

28:04

political survival was very, very

28:06

important to him. And

28:10

so dividing the world in this

28:13

way, in a way that it hasn't been divided

28:15

since the early 80s over Israel, and it's

28:17

far worse than it was in the early 80s, it

28:20

makes perfect sense to him. He's

28:23

driving away friendly, you know, I

28:25

mean, moderate friendly Arab countries such

28:27

as Jordan. He's driving,

28:29

I mean, he has antagonized

28:32

the Arab street beyond all measure.

28:35

So I think, you know, the real

28:37

question here is, what

28:39

else could he have done? What else could

28:41

he? And I, you know, I've got some

28:43

thoughts here. And bear in

28:46

mind, my thoughts are not from

28:48

an armchair. You know, I've had to

28:51

deal with these problems for a little.

28:53

And, you know, there's a number of

28:55

reasons why so many civilians are going

28:58

to be killed. Underlying it all, frankly,

29:00

is a, I mean,

29:05

in some cases, it's explicit, you know,

29:07

by, you will protect

29:09

your soldiers lives at all costs.

29:13

And implicit to that on the never

29:15

stated in an order is if that

29:17

means the choice between killing many

29:20

Palestinian civilians, or

29:22

having your own soldiers killed, then that's not

29:24

a choice, you know, and so a lot

29:28

of the things that that we do in

29:30

the in the US, to

29:33

do with proportionality or to do

29:35

with identification

29:37

of discrimination,

29:39

identification, all these things that we're

29:41

familiar with are not the norm.

29:44

Now, they use these terms. And

29:46

I'll give you an example of

29:48

how it goes awry. They do

29:50

collateral damage assessments, but here is

29:52

how it's done. First of all,

29:54

the air intelligence within Gaza is

29:56

not that is not that good.

29:58

And it's not fault of this

30:01

really is intelligence, it's just Hamas has

30:03

got really fucking good at operating without

30:05

giving that presence away. Okay,

30:07

so, so a lot of the intel they're

30:09

getting is based on drone observations,

30:13

and it's fleeting intelligence. So they feel

30:15

like they have to make a decision

30:18

very quickly. And so they

30:20

do and they always err on the side

30:22

of caution for themselves or their forces. They

30:25

will. And so it,

30:29

one of the problems here is that the Israeli

30:31

spokesman can say, pro forma,

30:34

hey, here's what we're doing. And it is

30:36

true. And we

30:38

have people, you know, and a guy like

30:40

a guy, I have great respect for john

30:43

Spencer, the regular warfare institute goes to Israel,

30:45

gets debris, comes back writes an article in

30:47

Newsweek saying, there's no more no army in

30:49

the world takes so many measures

30:52

to prevent civilian casualties. Well, john

30:55

is a great guy, greatest respect

30:57

for him. But that is simply not true. john

30:59

didn't, of course didn't lie. But

31:02

he made a lot of statements without really

31:04

looking behind. And I'll give you examples. Okay,

31:06

collateral damage assessments are based on their intel,

31:08

but their intel is not good. And

31:12

and they're under and again, you know,

31:14

the arbiter is always if

31:17

you don't make this strike or Israeli

31:19

forces risk raised, okay.

31:23

That is it. It's it's it doesn't

31:25

get into detailed proportionality. This isn't me

31:27

just shooting and I'm getting this

31:29

and from guys I've spoken to and

31:31

in fact, it's in the papers in Israel

31:33

too. So

31:36

here's some some quotes, all right. From

31:40

from Israeli soldiers and practice to terrorists

31:42

is anyone the IDF has killed in

31:44

the areas in which its forces operate,

31:46

sent an officer who served in Gaza,

31:48

the feeling we had was there wasn't

31:51

there weren't aren't any rules of engagement

31:53

there. Another soldier says, okay. So what

31:56

are the battles? What's the fighting looking like in

31:58

Gaza? I mentioned the other day, they're

32:01

taking lower casualties than we did in

32:03

Fallujah. Good for them, except that

32:06

they're causing many, many

32:08

thousands of times the civilian casualties that

32:10

we caused in Fallujah, because

32:12

in Fallujah, we took a little bit

32:14

more risk because we're Americans. We may

32:17

call it what you will. Even

32:19

if you disagree with it, I'm proud

32:21

of the fact that we risked our

32:23

own lives to save civilians. There is

32:25

no such fault within the Israeli military.

32:29

It's very firmly rooted in

32:32

their belief, their

32:34

constant belief that Israel was

32:36

under existential threat. Those are

32:38

the facts. If anyone wants to

32:40

challenge me

32:43

on this, by all means, please

32:45

do. But remember, three

32:48

Israeli hostages were killed. They

32:51

were shot. They were shot. They

32:53

weren't killed in their strike. They were shot

32:55

by Israelis, even after this

32:57

one happened. This

33:00

isn't tearing open the

33:03

people who did this. It's explaining why

33:05

the problem is a policy. It's not

33:07

individual actions. When these three hostages were

33:09

killed, a drone was

33:13

sent inside the building by the Israelis

33:15

having great success using drones inside buildings.

33:18

Drones flew into the building. Oh, no, shit,

33:20

sorry. It was a dog. They

33:22

sent in a dog. The

33:25

dogs all have GoPros. The dog picks

33:27

up these three Israeli hostages. They

33:29

don't know the dog has GoPro, but

33:31

they're yelling in Israeli. There's a couple

33:34

of terrorists in there, a

33:36

couple wounded ones. The Israelis

33:39

destroyed their house. They say,

33:42

and I don't disbelieve them,

33:45

the soldiers involved said they didn't check the GoPro

33:47

camera. Is a GoPro camera live feed?

33:50

No, it's not live feed. killed

34:00

in the house destruction, they get on the street, to

34:04

a subsequently shot by Israelis, and now it

34:06

gets really bad. The third one

34:08

runs back into a house. Israeli

34:11

soldiers throw him in and shoot him there. Close

34:14

range. So I'm like, okay,

34:16

think about all, think

34:19

about all the measures here that

34:22

we know rules of engagement that would

34:25

have prevented that happening. So

34:27

when the Israelis said, the Israelis guys weren't following

34:29

policy, it's hard, it's hard to

34:32

understand how so many guys didn't follow policy.

34:34

And the soldiers involved are saying that they

34:36

were told to shoot anything that came into

34:38

the area. And when you look at what

34:41

happened, it's hard to believe, it's hard not

34:43

to believe them. Okay,

34:45

and then other soldiers are saying,

34:47

yeah, we had three fire zones.

34:50

Whenever we set up a, you know,

34:54

liberal act, I mean, not a, we went firm. And

34:58

even moving during the day, we were told shoot

35:00

anything that came into our zone. We

35:03

gave civilians two weeks to move. And

35:05

if they didn't move, you know, that's their

35:08

fair game. So now

35:11

there's so many things that interfere with

35:13

civilians being able to move in that environment.

35:16

The messaging wasn't clear. The Israelis

35:18

said they used roof knocking, which

35:20

means firing a small caliber

35:22

round, I mean, a smaller caliber bomb into

35:24

the roof or rocket into the roof before

35:27

you bomb the building. But you know, there's

35:29

a problem. There's a problem with communicating with

35:31

lethal force. All right, it's not always clearly

35:34

apparent. If you're in a building and the

35:36

roof gets hit, you may probably just think,

35:38

wow, that was a close one. You don't

35:40

think, hey, this was a very kind warning

35:43

that I'm about to be incinerated if I don't

35:45

get out of this building. You have to, you

35:47

know, I mean, it's

35:49

almost as though they've got this, okay, we're gonna go through

35:51

this. Because

35:54

their intelligence is not good, they

35:56

can't make good estimates

35:59

of proportion. because they

36:01

don't know the value of the units or

36:03

organizations they're going after. So

36:06

there's a lot of things wrong with

36:10

what is being said about their procedures.

36:16

And then as the shooting their own hostages is

36:20

concerned, you would think that

36:22

that would cause them to reframe

36:24

everything, but it hasn't because, again,

36:26

there is this ethos. I mean,

36:28

there's no doubt there's revenge underlying

36:30

this, but that's

36:32

speculation. There's

36:35

got to be revenge in the back of the

36:37

human beings involved in this. And this is why

36:39

leadership is so important. But if you have leaders,

36:41

I'm not saying this is happening, but

36:43

it has happened in the US military. If

36:46

you have leaders who are reconciled

36:48

just saying, hey, whatever, man, you

36:50

know, if you feel at risk,

36:52

then by all means. And

36:55

so when you get a

36:57

case like the humanitarian convoy

36:59

that was fired on

37:01

and 100 killed, the Israelis

37:03

say only a percentage of the proportion

37:05

of those were killed by the Israelis.

37:08

But the hospital is saying that at

37:10

large. Anyway, bottom line is definitely a

37:13

number of incidents of people lining up

37:15

for food being shot by

37:17

Israeli soldiers. In

37:20

every case, their answer has been, I

37:22

felt threatened. All right. So it

37:24

seems once you've answered those magic words, all

37:27

bets are off. And we went through the

37:29

stage, too. So we can't feel too, you

37:32

know, not as not as extremely as this. Obviously,

37:34

I mean, can you imagine if we had caused

37:36

31,000 civilians

37:38

deaths in any operation, we

37:42

would be facing criminal charges,

37:44

frankly. But

37:47

yeah, I read, you know, look, I understand this

37:49

is a brutal dilemma. But

37:51

I also speaking as

37:53

someone who has fought house to house

37:56

and has planned urban operations. I'll pause

37:58

there, guys, if you. Here's your

38:00

funny questions. No, man, you're

38:02

the, of the three of us, you're the one

38:05

with the most expertise on this. So

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Illinois. As well too, I'm sure we're

39:12

gonna hear about it in the comments, but.

39:14

Nah, don't worry about the comments. We won't

39:16

be talking the truth. Exactly, so yeah, I'm

39:19

learning. We don't have a dog in his

39:21

fight. Like I don't at least, like to be completely

39:23

honest. I mean, I understand that

39:25

Israel needs to like smoke

39:28

Hamas people, like Hamas leadership. I think they should

39:30

have done it the wrong, the different way instead

39:33

of sending like division. Yeah, why could they? I'll

39:36

give you another example. Okay, so in there, and

39:39

look, I

39:41

was a fire support coordinator by military

39:44

occupational speciality. And you know, again, that

39:46

doesn't make me. Stop bragging. No,

39:48

I'm just saying because I wanna preempt,

39:53

you know, our favorite contributors, you pile

39:55

in and call me an idiot again,

39:58

or I'm all. But

40:01

I do know what I'm talking about. The

40:03

point is that, for

40:06

instance, when

40:09

the Israelis are doing this, saying, hey, these

40:11

are legitimate targets because

40:13

Hamas is operating out of this

40:16

building. But the building is an apartment block. The

40:18

Hamas are operating out of one or two apartments.

40:21

This is a real case, by the way. This was...

40:24

Oh, crap. It doesn't matter. I'll

40:26

get back to it. It was a building that was

40:28

destroyed in 2021. So

40:31

they'll destroy the whole building. And if

40:34

they're warning the occupants of that building by firing

40:36

into the roof, you can see

40:38

the problem here. And if you've got an apartment block and

40:40

people are worried about walking on the streets

40:43

because they're free, free for a sentence, it

40:45

gets very difficult to be a civilian, right?

40:47

You can't go out on the streets. But

40:49

if you stay in the building, you're going to get killed. So

40:53

yeah, you can say, well, Netanyahu,

40:57

meanwhile, is saying Israel has the most moral army

40:59

in the world. That

41:01

may be. I'm not making comments

41:03

about the morality of the individual soldier.

41:05

I'm saying that the

41:07

way things are set up, the policy, the

41:10

procedures, their

41:12

customs are such that nothing

41:16

other than massive civilian casualties

41:19

could be anticipated. So

41:24

it's fuck is what... That's

41:27

what we realized. I mean, like, what does it

41:29

end? Because they're going to go into Rafa and

41:31

wreck some shit like there, too. So where

41:34

do all those civilians that moved away

41:36

from Gaza City, where do they

41:38

go? What's the move? Doesn't

41:40

matter to them? It doesn't seem like it from

41:43

an idiot like me. It doesn't seem like

41:45

it. Yeah. Well,

41:47

that's a... it's

41:49

just hard to see a good outcome

41:52

or a peaceful outcome to this now.

41:56

And the incidents of the

41:58

last attacks in Damascus. Look, I

42:00

know, I mean, we went through this discussion in Soleimani.

42:04

Soleimani was one of my bags, baby, you

42:06

know, when I was, I wore uniform. I

42:09

was delighted as a human being to see

42:11

him dead, but I was concerned that it

42:13

was not part of a synchronized campaign, right?

42:16

And I suspect that it may not

42:18

have been. And the same thing here,

42:21

okay? If the Israelis

42:23

have something lined up

42:25

to mitigate the backlash, that's

42:28

good. If they don't,

42:30

then the jury's out.

42:33

Whether this was a good move, right?

42:36

There's no way they have anything written about.

42:38

To your point about Rafa, this

42:42

is as near a red line as I can

42:44

see between the United States and Israel, all right?

42:48

There was a point where Israel might have got

42:50

away with saying, hey, look, we'll take care of

42:52

the civilian population. We'll put them on the beach,

42:54

blah, blah, blah. But after

42:57

the, you know, now it seems as

42:59

though with U.S. polls swinging against Israel's

43:02

actions, death of U.S. citizens

43:04

in the last 24 hours is

43:07

not likely to help that. I would

43:09

say that the administration's really going to

43:11

this today, draw

43:13

a hard line on Rafa,

43:15

on going into Rafa, because

43:18

that Netanyahu has promised the

43:20

Israeli people that that's exactly

43:22

what they are. That's

43:25

what we're doing. So

43:29

I guess to kind of summarize what

43:31

I've been talking about, the

43:35

problem is that frankly, the

43:38

IDF is not taking

43:41

the trouble to distinguish between civilians

43:43

and militants in Gunnarzur. The

43:45

IDF would argue we just don't have time to

43:47

take, you know, we can't do any more than

43:49

we're doing because it's going to put us in

43:51

danger. You

43:54

know, the same time Israel is expanding, it's,

43:57

you know, during the Gunnarzur operation, because at the beginning of

43:59

the year, it had very few real targets.

44:01

They were all old, as you can imagine.

44:03

They had been tracking Hamas.

44:06

Well, now they've got hundreds of targets, but you

44:08

know how it is. People

44:10

move all the time and they're

44:12

dropping dumb 2000 bombs. There's a

44:15

no, not everyone knows what people,

44:18

that's capable of killing, wounding people more

44:20

than a thousand feet away from the

44:22

impact. CEP is what, a thousand feet

44:24

from 2000? It doesn't matter. So

44:27

how can you possibly say that

44:31

when you're dropping dumb bombs in

44:33

an environment like that after taking

44:35

proportions, like roof knocking

44:38

or dropping leaflets and expecting people to

44:40

move in that environment, how can you

44:42

really expect civilian casualties to

44:44

be lower? Also,

44:47

what I worry about a little

44:49

bit is like we've

44:51

discussed in other episodes,

44:53

the Iranian, the Quds Force

44:55

proxies all over the Middle East, whether

44:58

they're in Iraq or Syria or

45:00

wherever, are kind of operating

45:02

relatively independently. And I don't

45:04

really see them differentiating Israel

45:07

and America for the most

45:09

part, generally. So

45:11

I see that there is risk

45:13

to American personnel and bases, whether

45:16

it's Baghdad airport or the

45:18

embassy or whatever, or Tower

45:20

22 or any of the other bases we

45:22

have across the region. So what

45:24

happens if we get hit again and we lose a

45:26

couple of servicemen again? We're brought

45:28

back into it. We like in a more

45:30

kinetic way, like we need to step up

45:32

and show like, hey, you don't do that.

45:35

Here's a peepy whack. Yeah,

45:37

that's what I worry about. I know

45:39

Iran doesn't want to drag Israel or

45:41

the United States into a full fledged

45:43

war because like their military

45:45

is not great. I mean, that's why they

45:48

use the Quds Force so much is because

45:50

it's going to project their power. They don't

45:52

want to go to, you know, state on

45:54

state war. This strike

45:56

against Quds Force officers in that sense

45:59

was very deliberate. deliberately

46:02

designed to give them no choice.

46:05

Right. So Netanyahu,

46:08

whatever he may say, is after

46:10

escalation. And

46:12

there's something else. Remember, I

46:14

talked about the Hannibal directive last

46:18

episode or two episodes ago. These

46:22

things going on, murky things going on within

46:26

the military that suggest that with brigade

46:29

and battalion commanders are

46:31

making their own decisions on rules of engagement. In

46:34

fact, that is the overwhelming

46:36

feedback I'm getting. I

46:39

spoke to one battalion that moved

46:42

in, moved up north on 7 October,

46:45

and they were weapons tight, usual

46:48

rules of engagement. Another battalion moved

46:50

in after them, and they

46:52

were reconnaissance by fire. Every

46:55

morning and every evening, they would fire the morning

46:57

and evening hate, as it used to be called

46:59

in the First World War, into the villages on

47:01

the Lebanese side. And that was sanctioned

47:03

by their commanders. And this is

47:06

within the same organization. There is no – there

47:08

doesn't appear to be any central rules

47:10

of engagement. So the Hannibal doctrine

47:13

was directive,

47:17

was an official thing that

47:20

authorized Israeli

47:22

soldiers to risk the lives of hostages

47:25

in order to free them. In

47:27

other words, knowing what lay in store for them,

47:30

you could accept a high level of risk. Okay,

47:32

common sense, right? It has

47:34

been interpreted, apparently, as meaning you

47:36

can kill hostages or

47:38

your own soldiers to prevent them being held

47:41

captive. That was the

47:44

Hannibal doctrine. There are incidents where

47:46

soldiers are claiming that the Hannibal

47:48

doctrine has been called by

47:51

battalion brigade commanders. And then just,

47:53

you know, I Guess there's a

47:55

lot of these code-read type things. There's

47:58

another thing called the Dahiyar doctrine. Ah

48:00

which was formulated in the Two

48:03

Thousand and Six Lebanon War apologies

48:05

the.e O S. I'm so so

48:07

it's made some it. it is

48:09

that disproportionate attacks including against civilians,

48:12

structures, and infrastructural of rice. Ah,

48:14

I'm. You know for if

48:16

receiving the and and I and and

48:18

that's sad is that may well be

48:21

what said player right. Yeah.

48:25

To not at all like you could be.

48:27

You could justify this more more as like.

48:31

Even the United States government like it's like

48:33

dude wheat. I mean, there's only so much

48:35

we can do. right?

48:37

It's not even dividing the world's I

48:39

mean, the world's pretty much on one

48:41

side. And it's for the most part,

48:44

Yeah I think he on turns us, states

48:46

you nine and I countries. He

48:48

other everyone's pretty much saying hey guys, let's chill

48:50

out a little bit. Then I

48:53

go back to what you're good at which

48:55

is assassinating. Top level people,

48:57

the odd nuclear scientists not any like.

48:59

Well. As do that, Yeah. You

49:01

know, Netanyahu actually has not

49:04

been a fork. In

49:07

the past he's he's little like

49:09

he's gonna love this analogy Nasrallah

49:11

In the sense he knows how

49:13

to walk the line right. You

49:15

know, get everyone fired off. But

49:17

avoid odd because he knows he's

49:19

a survivalist. He knows that infringed

49:21

conflicts like Lebanon lead to the

49:23

end of careers. And

49:26

and I mean his career is on

49:28

down to the over. The question is

49:30

when and he wants his? Perhaps he

49:32

wants his career to end the other

49:34

side of a war. Ah, a

49:36

major war because center will extent enough.

49:38

That's the argument against. Those.

49:41

No longer at that point. Longevity.

49:43

It's legacy. Yeah. Yeah,

49:45

old. Not even Legacy Press. It's it's

49:48

it's presentation of power. Now he's a

49:50

political for it's a. Doctor

49:52

Nebula your him as he

49:55

he cut his teeth in

49:57

the top India on. Real.

50:00

not reality TV, the talk

50:02

show circuit here

50:04

in the United States in the late

50:08

70s and 80s. That's

50:11

what made them. Yeah,

50:13

I mean legacy hunting or political

50:16

preservation at the expense of tens

50:19

of thousands of civilians and

50:21

even Israeli soldiers and just

50:24

human death and destruction kind

50:27

of makes you fucking evil in

50:29

my opinion. That's completely my opinion.

50:31

If you like BB Netanyahu, congratulations.

50:33

I don't. I think he's

50:35

a fucking rat. Yeah,

50:38

I say facts, you

50:40

know, and I do express opinions. Of

50:42

course, otherwise, I'd be very boring. But

50:45

yeah, I am concerned. I'm concerned for

50:47

Israel. I'm concerned for the Middle East.

50:49

I'm concerned for the world. I'm very

50:51

concerned for the United States, most of

50:54

all, obviously, right now. And

50:56

I think it's important for everyone. Everyone

50:59

watching remember that never mind.

51:01

I'm not even going to go down that bridge. So

51:05

anyway, hey, here's

51:08

another thing on rules of engagement that

51:12

wasn't, you know, John Spencer didn't mention

51:14

in the Newsweek article. Do you really

51:16

go into a rebuilding shooting for

51:19

the most part? All right. And that is,

51:21

you know, that's kind of the rest of SOP in

51:23

Gaza. I'm

51:27

not making a comment on right or wrong. I'm just

51:29

saying, you know, that

51:31

leads not just a huge, enormous

51:33

ammunition consumption, which

51:35

they don't have a problem with when it

51:37

comes to small arms, because, you know, obviously,

51:40

logistics bylines. But the but

51:42

that too, you know, that is something reconnaissance

51:44

by far, as it were, is something that

51:46

we are never authorized to do in the

51:49

US or seldom authorized to do, certainly not

51:51

in those environments. But

51:54

that is that, you know, look,

51:57

not frankly, most.

52:00

civilians, vast majority of civilians

52:02

are killed by artillery, you

52:04

know, kill fire zones, relatively,

52:07

relatively few, still hundreds, thousands,

52:09

probably killed by direct fire.

52:13

But so so all of

52:15

this, all of this is problem. It's

52:17

not particular procedures. It's the kind of

52:19

the underlying culture. And

52:22

it's best way to put this. I know I brought us near an

52:24

end. No, perfect. No,

52:26

I was great. I think. I

52:30

think it's tough, man. I don't know. I don't know

52:32

what we should say. Yeah. No,

52:36

I think. No,

52:38

man, I'm, you

52:40

know, me, I like to learn. So I

52:42

had to sit back on this one and

52:44

just listen, and ask my little questions.

52:46

And I appreciate it. That's what

52:48

I do every episode. So, you

52:50

know, just for those interested in

52:52

how you know how what the

52:54

fighting looks like in Gaza. I

52:57

mentioned the Israeli casualties being remarkably low, you know, it's

52:59

in the 200 and I think

53:02

50s and those 60s and you know, six

53:04

months of six months off.

53:08

I'm sorry, four to five months of

53:10

fighting. That's extraordinarily low.

53:13

And, you know, one of

53:15

the aside, we talked about fires, but after

53:18

they have plastered in the area,

53:20

then they'll send in their special

53:22

operations guys who will seize a

53:24

foothold kind of a bridgehead. Or,

53:28

you know, they're sending drones dogs

53:31

first, then they'll send us their

53:34

special operations forces to to hold

53:36

a block and only then will

53:38

they send in their conventional forces.

53:41

And then it's very, very slow

53:44

movement. I've been told, you know,

53:46

couple 100 yards a day.

53:50

So you see it's a very cautious,

53:52

very deliberate move. That's probably

53:55

how they're saving their own casualties.

53:57

Ballpark, Andy, how many Hamas fighters

53:59

are there? actually fighting every day?

54:02

Yeah, that's a good question. So I haven't

54:04

seen that anywhere. Yeah, so the Israelis say

54:06

20 to 30,000 at the

54:08

beginning. They say the now remember last

54:10

week I said 14 to 15,000. They're

54:13

claiming killed when you add up the battalions that

54:15

they say they've killed it's 14

54:18

15,000 guys looking at Hamas

54:20

disorder of battle. Now Israel

54:22

saying they killed 9000 Hamas

54:24

operatives. Coincidentally, exactly the number

54:26

of military age males killed

54:28

reported dead, right? So hard

54:32

to tell. Right. Really hard to

54:34

tell no one can no one can tell

54:36

you how many battalions are left in Ra

54:38

for anyone who says they can is full

54:40

of shit. I mean, even if you

54:42

had the best intel in the wall, you

54:44

know, you're talking about small groups of

54:47

guys, and all the engagements there are

54:49

small groups, you

54:51

know, running around through tunnels in

54:53

a densely, densely populated

54:57

area, how can you possibly

54:59

make a coherent estimate of

55:01

how many people

55:03

are there? Well, I mean, how many

55:05

fighters are there to alone form them

55:07

into battalions? It's

55:09

ridiculously unrealistic. And as

55:12

I've mentioned, even

55:14

even if you ignore the figures, Western

55:17

intelligence reports, the UK in

55:19

particular, I

55:21

don't want to burn him, but

55:23

he's, he's particularly well positioned to

55:26

know about this is saying that

55:28

Israeli reports of Hamas casualties are

55:32

very much over the mark. So

55:35

there's very few silver linings. Yeah, as

55:37

we talked about, even if Hamas was

55:40

completely obliterated, there are 1000s

55:42

and 1000s of kids who have seen

55:44

their families. Right. There

55:47

is no endgame here. Let's go. There's no, would you

55:49

be happy the rest of your life? Not

55:52

even your family. I mean, just fucking

55:55

go up and smoke. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

55:57

I want to be secular and Democrats.

56:00

Oh, yeah, that's what I want to do. If

56:02

revenge is the one thing that life offered

56:04

you That's what you would

56:06

do and anyone, you know out there who you

56:09

think stay different. I would love to hear from

56:11

them Yeah,

56:13

it's like a genius person in the fucking

56:16

world. Yeah. All right That's

56:18

it on that happy note on that happy

56:20

note Soon probably

56:22

not next week or something exciting will show

56:24

up soon. We're gonna talk about Taiwan guys

56:26

and This is

56:28

the opportunity for D to say

56:31

what was the phrase? I

56:33

don't know non consensual unification. Which

56:36

I'm giggling. Yeah, I'm a bad.

56:38

It's my favorite favorite movies weekend

56:40

at writers I

56:42

didn't know it's gonna be a serial comment. Just wanted to

56:44

get that out of the way. Yeah. All right All

56:47

right. Okay, everyone don't forget to like and subscribe

56:50

if you're listening to us on audio rate and review

56:52

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