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Guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk

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Operation. Cobra.

1:59

ask me in the

2:01

team house with your host, Jack

2:04

Burton, David Park. Hey

2:13

folks, welcome to episode 266 of the team house.

2:16

I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park. And

2:19

our guest on tonight's show is Jim

2:21

Shorten. Jim served in

2:23

US Special Forces, worked in

2:26

Mac V SOG doing cross border operations

2:28

during the Vietnam War. And

2:30

then he went on to have a very interesting career

2:32

as an Air Force Para Rescueman and

2:35

continued to have an interesting career after he retired

2:38

from the military, going to

2:40

med school and becoming a doctor. So Jim,

2:42

thank you very much for joining us on the show

2:44

today. Well, my pleasure, thanks for

2:46

asking me. Absolutely, man. So

2:49

I wanna start off asking you a little bit

2:51

about your origin story, about kind of like how

2:53

you grew up and what kind of propelled you

2:55

towards military service. Well,

2:59

I had kind of a rough childhood. You

3:01

know, I had a stepfather that

3:04

used to slap us around a lot, but

3:06

I was born in Liverpool, England and I

3:08

came to the States when I was probably

3:10

the final time was around 11 years old

3:13

and moved

3:15

all over the country. And my

3:17

mom remarried a guy named Jones. That's where my

3:19

name Jim Jones came in. If you look at

3:21

my military, it's all Jim Jones. And

3:24

so when I got out of the military, after 20

3:26

years, I went ahead and changed my name back to

3:28

Jim Shorten. I'm

3:30

a junior. They carry on my real father's

3:32

name. So, but

3:35

then, yeah, when I, when

3:37

I was about, I guess I was about 16 or 15 years old,

3:41

I ran away from home. And when

3:43

I became 17, I

3:45

decided I wanted to join the Navy to go see

3:47

the world. So

3:50

what I had to do is I had to become a citizen

3:53

because I wasn't a citizen. I became a citizen in 64. So

3:56

I did that. And then from the Navy, you know,

3:59

they went in. I started 22 months

4:01

in the Navy over in Vietnam. I learned, I

4:03

learned, I had a working knowledge of the Vietnamese

4:05

language from a girlfriend I had there. And

4:09

then I decided to go into the Army Special Corps.

4:11

I was gonna go into the Navy SEALs, but

4:13

then I decided to, you know,

4:16

that song came out only three out of 100 make it. So

4:19

I went ahead and joined the Army

4:21

instead. And it

4:23

wasn't very hard for me. I was a gymnast

4:25

in high school. So I was in really

4:27

good shape. So, and I stayed in shape. I

4:29

did 200 pushups, 200 sit-ups, 200 jumping jacks

4:31

every morning. And when

4:34

I left the Army and went into the Para,

4:36

oh, when I left the Army, I came back

4:38

to States. I was underwater operations. The whole team

4:40

went down to Key West and went

4:42

through Scuba School. And then when we

4:44

came back then, I was teaching Para

4:46

Rescue guys, foreign weapons, night vision devices

4:48

and stuff. And I didn't know who these

4:50

guys were. So I

4:53

went out and partied with them a couple of times. And

4:55

then I went out and down and talked to their base

4:58

with the 129th Air Special Rescue Recovery Service.

5:00

And I decided to lead the Army and

5:03

go into the Air Force. So I did.

5:05

Before we jumped too far ahead, I

5:07

wanna go back to your time in

5:09

the Navy, that initial stint you said you had

5:11

service in Vietnam there as well. I mean, could

5:14

you tell us what that initial enlistment in

5:16

the Navy was like and what they had you doing? When

5:20

I first went in the Navy,

5:23

it's kind of funny, but I

5:26

got this duty, after training, I can't, I don't

5:28

even remember how long it was. It was 16

5:30

weeks or something. I

5:32

went to San

5:35

Diego for a bootcamp. And

5:37

so when I left there, I got

5:40

orders to go to Litchfield Park Naval Air

5:42

Station in Phoenix, Arizona, or Litchfield Park, Arizona,

5:44

just outside of Phoenix. And

5:46

so when I was there,

5:50

when I first got to the base, I told everybody

5:52

I was a dental technician, but it

5:54

had me actually down as a storekeeper. So

5:57

I'm telling everybody this. I'm

6:00

a dental tech, you know, I'm maybe working the dental

6:02

office. So finally they said, just

6:04

go find a place and crash for the

6:06

night. And we'll see you in Monday

6:08

morning, because it was like on a late Friday afternoon. So

6:12

I go down and I start shooting

6:14

pool and they had this masseter arms and it was being

6:16

a, it was a real small base. So

6:18

everybody was wearing civilian clothes. Well, the masseter

6:20

arms, making sure nobody fights on the pool

6:22

tables and stuff like that. He was

6:24

the dental tech on the base. So I

6:26

told him what the truth was. And

6:28

he goes, well, I'll see what I can do. So

6:30

when you first go on a base, you know, you

6:33

got to go around like the medical, the dental and

6:35

personnel and all this stuff. So, uh, when I went

6:37

into the dental office and they checked my teeth, uh,

6:40

his name was Dave Johnson. And he said,

6:42

um, uh, to Captain Smith was a

6:44

Navy captain, you know, like a colonel and,

6:47

and he goes, uh, he goes, this is the thing I

6:49

was telling you about you, sir, and he wants to be

6:51

a dental tech. So, uh, Captain Smith

6:53

asked me about the dental stuff, you know, like he

6:55

put a tray out and asked me to name off

6:57

all of the instruments and I rattled it all off.

7:00

Cause I studied, I wanted to be a dentist. So

7:02

I studied all that stuff. So he goes,

7:05

I'll have you in here in a couple of days. Wow.

7:09

So I, I actually became a dental

7:11

tech. And so after, so

7:14

after, uh, after a

7:16

cap of Smith retired, we had this commander.

7:19

And I know his son, his son is a

7:21

locksmith up in Tucson and, uh,

7:23

but his dad passed away, but anyway, I wasn't

7:25

school trained. It was a dental tech, so he

7:27

didn't want me in the office. So he booted

7:29

me out of the office and I became a

7:31

lifeguard and he always wanted me

7:33

back in the office, but he didn't want to, you

7:35

know, he didn't want to lose face, so he wouldn't

7:37

say anything, but he got some guy that was school

7:39

trained and the guy didn't know his butt from a

7:41

hole in the ground. So

7:45

anyway, from there, I went to Norfolk,

7:47

Virginia for a precommissioning detail for the

7:49

AGMR two, which is the USS Arlington.

7:52

It was an old aircraft carrier and they put

7:54

antennas on the ship for communications. On

7:57

the flight deck. And, um, that

7:59

took. ever to get commissioned. So while I

8:01

was there, I worked on tugboats for like three

8:04

or four weeks. And I really loved

8:06

tugboat duty, really hard work, but great bunch of

8:08

guys, good to work with. So

8:10

I did that. And then they had a levy come down

8:12

saying they were looking for guys that wanted to go on

8:14

a ship. So I went on the

8:16

USS Denabala, or Denabla, I never knew

8:18

how to say the word, but

8:21

it was an AS-56, it was

8:23

a refrigeration ship. So we went

8:25

over to the Mediterranean on a cruise, I was on it for a

8:27

couple of months. So when I

8:29

went to Mediterranean, we replenished all these

8:31

ships with supplies and food

8:33

and stuff like that. And so when I came

8:35

back to the States from there, I got off

8:38

the ship, and they were looking for people that

8:40

wanted to go to Vietnam. And

8:42

I'm going like, hey, where's Vietnam? I've

8:44

never heard of the place. And

8:47

this one chief looks at me and he goes,

8:49

we're fighting a war in Vietnam, this is for

8:51

shore duty. I said, yeah, I'll go. He goes,

8:53

this is a war. I go, look, I'll go. I said,

8:56

my dad served my dad, my father was Royal

8:58

Navy in the British during

9:00

World War II. So I

9:03

volunteered to go. So they sent me

9:05

to counterinsurgency school and survival school

9:07

and that sort of thing. And then I went ahead and

9:10

went on over to the Vietnam. And I liked it

9:12

there so much I stayed there for 22 months. I had

9:14

a girlfriend, she taught me how to

9:16

speak a lot of Vietnamese, I had a good working

9:18

knowledge of it. And so

9:20

that helped me with Special Forces. That was

9:22

mostly Marines in Da Nang? Yeah,

9:25

it was mostly all Marines there.

9:28

And I worked on the

9:30

piers, I worked with the Seabees, I was a seaman,

9:32

but they were so short handed on men that

9:35

I worked with the Seabees and we worked 18

9:37

hours on, six hours off, no days off. And

9:39

we did that for a while, then finally started

9:41

getting more people coming over. And then we started

9:43

to get like one day a week or two

9:45

days a week off. So

9:48

then time, like when you started

9:50

your initial training and then you're

9:52

slotted for logs, right? And

9:57

you go to dental tech and then you

9:59

have... a rate or are you like

10:01

non-rated and you're just like volunteering for

10:03

whatever jobs come up? Yes,

10:06

I was not rated. See, I was a

10:08

storekeeper but I had to take all my tests

10:10

in storekeeping. So I took all my tests up

10:12

to E5. I passed all the tests

10:14

and everything but you know in the Navy

10:16

you've got to wait for a slot to open

10:18

up before you go in. Yeah. And there's three

10:21

storekeepers, you know, heck. I

10:23

spent three years, seven months in the Navy. I was like

10:25

what they call a kiddie cruiser. When

10:27

you join your 17 you get out when you turn

10:29

21. So I did

10:31

three or seven months

10:33

in the Navy and

10:36

I passed all my tests but the whole time

10:39

I came out as an E3. That

10:41

was my highest rank in the Navy. So

10:43

it's a seaman. So

10:46

and I worked with the Seabees. I

10:48

had the white stripes, you know, Seabees have blue stripes.

10:50

The snipes that work in the, you know, they have

10:53

red and all that thing. Aviation have green. So

10:56

yeah, that's pretty much it. And

10:59

what did you do while you're with the Seabees? I

11:03

did a lot of shoring up ships and stuff like

11:05

that. I drove trucks. I used to

11:07

drive from Denang down to Chulai and stuff

11:09

like that and then back

11:11

and forth loading, taking supplies, splicing

11:16

cables. I got injured. I had a

11:18

truck blown off the road. In 1966 they, the enemy dropped

11:22

some rockets, 22 and 122

11:25

millimeter rockets into the Air Force base there

11:27

and they hit the bomb storage.

11:29

The bomb storage was when it went up, it

11:31

was so furious that it lifted up a five

11:33

ton dump truck over some trees and dropped it

11:36

in two-story barracks. Wow. But everybody was out of

11:38

the barracks so nobody was heard in it. But

11:41

it blew my truck off the road and I went out the door

11:43

and the truck rolled over on me. So but

11:46

I mean I was okay. I was going in to get

11:48

people out of the area trying to get them

11:50

out of there, get them in the safety area. So

11:53

but yeah, that was pretty much it. So

11:56

and after I got injured and stuff, they

11:58

had me splicing cables. for

12:00

the Mike boats and you boats, so where the ramp comes down.

12:03

So I was placing the 5'8 cable and

12:06

3' inch cables for the ramps. And so

12:08

you said that initially, like I'd like

12:10

to know you somewhere it got into

12:13

young Jim's mind that maybe you want

12:15

to do this special ops thing. You

12:17

said you'd heard about the seals and then the

12:19

Barry Sadler song got you. Tell us

12:22

like how that all came about. Well,

12:26

when I was, back when I was in, they

12:28

didn't really have seals. They

12:30

were just starting to come out. What they

12:32

had was a UDT, Underwater Demolition

12:34

Teams. So, and when I

12:36

used to go to, it was Camp Tenshaw was the

12:38

main camp. Even though I hardly

12:41

ever stayed there. I used to stay downtown with my girlfriend.

12:43

But they

12:46

have UDT guys there and I didn't

12:49

know everything they were doing. But we

12:51

used them like if we were loading a barge and our

12:53

bomb came off a cable and went in the wire, the

12:55

UDT guys would come in and pick it up. We'd hook

12:57

it up and we'd haul it back out again. But

13:02

when I went to have chow or something like

13:04

that, in the mess hall, I see these guys

13:06

walking around with bandages and their arms and slings

13:08

where they caught a bullet in the shoulder and

13:10

all kinds of stuff. And I'm going, who are

13:12

these masked men? So I started

13:14

learning a little bit about UDT and the seal

13:16

teams and I wanted to be a seal. So,

13:19

but then that song came out

13:22

and I'm going, I can do three out of a hundred,

13:24

I can do that. So,

13:28

for people who might not know, you're talking about the

13:30

seal or the song, the Green Beret. Yeah,

13:33

very established. Ballad of the Green

13:35

Beret, right? Yeah. Yeah.

13:38

I think a lot of guys went into special forces

13:40

after hearing that song. Yeah. And

13:42

so you had to do a, like

13:44

a lateral inter-service transfer to the army

13:47

and start that? Well, I

13:49

finished my hitch in the Navy. So when

13:51

I got out of the Navy, I

13:54

wanted to go into army special forces. So

13:57

I took my battery test as a civilian, but

13:59

they, The interesting thing is I had a GED.

14:02

I took a GED. And

14:04

if you ever heard of the Evelyn Wood speed

14:06

reading course, I took it from actually from Evelyn

14:08

Wood. And I did that when

14:10

I was in Arizona. But

14:13

when I wanted to go into Special Forces, you

14:15

had to have a high school diploma. You

14:17

couldn't get, you could go into the GED. You

14:20

can get in the Army, but not Special Forces. So

14:24

what I did is I went to San Diego High School, and

14:27

I said, look, I told my whole situation,

14:29

I need to get a diploma. And

14:32

they said, well, if you take California history and government, we'll

14:34

go ahead and give you a diploma. So

14:36

I was in school probably not

14:39

even a week. And they came

14:41

into the classroom because I'm like 21 years old

14:43

with all these teeny boppers in there, right? So

14:45

they came in the room, and they said, we want to talk to you

14:47

in the office. And they said, we're just going to go ahead and give

14:49

you a diploma. So I got

14:51

my diploma. And so then I went down. I went

14:54

into Special Forces. And I went to

14:56

four doors for basic training.

15:01

And then I went to advanced

15:04

infantry training. And I was the

15:07

outstanding trainee of the cycle for

15:09

the AIT. So

15:12

I got that. I got that little trophy and stuff. And

15:16

from there, they sent me to a jump school. But

15:19

when I was at Richville Park in Arizona,

15:21

I started flying airplanes and skydiving when I

15:23

was there. So jumping was nothing

15:25

for me to go to jump school.

15:28

So I went ahead and went to

15:31

jump school, finished that. Then I went

15:33

up to Fort Bragg for SF

15:35

training. And I

15:38

finished phase one. Back then, it was different than the

15:40

Q-course, so what they have today. It was phase one.

15:42

Then you go to your MOS training, whichever it is.

15:44

And then you go to phase two. And then you

15:46

get your orders and go. But

15:49

after phase one, they put me

15:51

in communications. And I just

15:53

couldn't get that ditty-dum-dum-ditty fast enough. So

15:56

what I did is I did

15:58

the Morse code. So I told them. I

16:00

told the instructor, I said, look, I said, don't

16:03

lose me. I said, I'm good mathematics. I said,

16:05

I worked for the CBs. I got a working

16:07

knowledge of Vietnamese language. I said, put me in

16:09

engineers or something. So they took me out out

16:11

of communications and I had to wait for the

16:13

next class to come through and then I went

16:15

into engineers and it was a piece of cake

16:17

for me. So I went through

16:19

the engineer training and then phase two was with

16:21

a piece of cake too. It wasn't that hard

16:24

for me. So, and I mean,

16:26

I had, when I was a little kid, I was

16:28

raised up and caught, well, after I left England, we

16:30

traveled all over the country but I tell everybody I

16:32

was raised in Colorado and my stepfather

16:34

was a hunter and I used to go out, I

16:36

used to go out in the woods all the time.

16:39

I knew how to be stealth and everything. So

16:41

that all helped out quite a bit. Yeah.

16:44

And yeah, I mean, I actually would bury myself in the

16:46

leaves and stuff and the instructors would walk right by me

16:49

and they wouldn't see me. Nothing

16:51

like that. Make it through

16:53

SF training and then, where do you

16:56

get assigned? I

16:58

went to Vietnam

17:01

into the train where the headquarters was and

17:04

I went to the first sergeant or

17:06

the sergeant major there and I said, I said, I'd like

17:09

to go to Da Nang because that's where I stationed with

17:11

the Navy. And I knew the town pretty

17:13

good and stuff. And while I was, he

17:15

said, I'll see what I can do. And

17:18

during that time, another guy comes walking in

17:21

and oh, before that, I met a guy

17:23

from India that I knew from Da Nang

17:26

when I was up there and he left Da Nang

17:28

and went down the train. And he said, Da Nang

17:30

wasn't the same anymore. I

17:32

mean, it was totally different. And

17:35

so a guy comes walking into

17:37

this combat orientation course, the

17:39

cock course that they had there, it's like

17:41

a in indoctrination to Vietnam kind of thing.

17:44

So I'm sitting at the

17:46

bar and the guy comes walking in and

17:49

he goes, hey, I'm going home. I said, where were

17:51

we stationed? He goes, I was stationed at A502, one

17:53

of the best duty stations you can get. And

17:55

so I said, he talked to me about it. So he

17:58

did. So then I, next day I... I ran

18:00

down the headquarters and I

18:02

talked to this guy named Sergeant Micah. And

18:05

he was giving out orders and stuff for

18:08

where people went. And so I

18:10

talked to him and I said, you know,

18:12

I'd like to go to A502. And

18:14

he goes, well, if anybody's going to A502, I'm

18:16

going to go. So anyway,

18:19

about a day later, he comes walking into the

18:21

bar and he goes, hey, Jones. I

18:24

go, what? He goes, we're

18:26

both going to A502. So he cut

18:28

us both orders. I went

18:30

to A502 and when I was there, they put

18:32

me on this little outpost called Suyao. Now,

18:36

A502 came directly under headquarters. It didn't come

18:38

under a BC team or anything like that.

18:40

It came directly under headquarters. And most A

18:43

teams, you know, had 12 guys on it.

18:45

But A502 had about 50 guys

18:47

on it. And what they were is they

18:49

were security from the train. Up in

18:51

the hills, if you were in the train

18:53

and you left them in the hills, you saw these

18:55

little outposts out there. They had one American on all

18:57

these outposts, except for one, there was two

19:00

places where they had more than one American, but

19:04

they were the security from the train and I

19:06

got an outpost that was way over on the

19:08

other side of the mountain, so it was the

19:10

furthest one out. And it was called Suyao. And

19:13

I had a CIDG company,

19:15

a civilian irregular defense group. And

19:17

I had 133 guys with me there and

19:20

I was the only American. Really? Yeah.

19:22

They would send guys down there every once in

19:24

a while because I was getting hit about every

19:26

one and a half days by the enemy. They'd

19:29

shoot into the camp to see if you're awake

19:32

and stuff like that. Just test your camp. And

19:36

so the guys would come down once in a while and

19:38

then they would go back. And on Mondays was my day

19:40

off. So what I did is they, I'd

19:42

get it. I had a pickup truck and, or they'd

19:44

come down to the Jeep. I'd leave the truck there.

19:47

I'd break the Jeep and I'd go back to camp,

19:49

take my shower, change my clothes. And I'd go down

19:51

the train and spend the night. And

19:55

I parked the Jeep at the headquarters and take a

19:57

Jitney or something, you know, a sick below or something

19:59

like that going down. town and I

20:01

had a couple of girlfriends down there so I just hang out

20:03

with them. We'd go have dinner, go

20:05

to a movie or something and go back to

20:07

their place. You weren't like really on an ODA

20:09

it sounds like but they just kind of know

20:11

that that's by fire they put you out there.

20:15

Yeah the

20:17

first time I was on a RIFT A team was

20:19

when I was in the reserves with the 12th group

20:21

and it was underwater operations. After

20:23

that initial stint in the Trang like how

20:26

did Mac B Sog come about for you?

20:29

Well they turned the

20:32

A team over to the regional popular

20:34

forces, the ref puffs and

20:36

when they did that I volunteered to

20:38

go to CNC and

20:41

so they sent me to CCC up in Cuntoon. I

20:44

mean I guess you heard about Sog and that from being

20:47

so close to the headquarters? No

20:50

we knew from going through training group. Oh

20:52

really okay. We

20:54

all knew CNC and like I

20:57

remember Sergeant Whirly and Franks were

20:59

there and Whirly I remember Whirly

21:01

telling me says whatever you do don't

21:03

go to CNC he says you get yourself

21:05

killed. Go to a go to an A

21:08

team get a little bit of combat under

21:10

your belt first and before you

21:12

go there because a lot of the guys that were

21:14

killed in Sog a lot of them were like their

21:16

first second mission. Yeah you know

21:18

so yeah we had a guy

21:20

that came with us on one on my

21:22

first mission up there and this next mission

21:24

the whole team got wiped out. Yeah so

21:26

tell us you so you get put in

21:29

CCC Command and Control Central. Tell

21:31

us where that was and for folks out there who

21:33

don't know what what your mission was? Well

21:37

it was a Condescine mission. What do you when you

21:39

first go in there they take your ID card your

21:41

dog tags and everything and then you take your shirt

21:43

off because you got your rank on your shirt you

21:45

take your shirt off you go into room and

21:48

you're sitting there and they

21:50

give you a hint of what you're going to be

21:53

doing. You know you're going to be running Condescent operations

21:55

are very dangerous that kind of thing they didn't tell

21:57

you where that was and then they'd

21:59

say if any. everybody wants to leave now. And

22:02

most of the guys stayed there. So I

22:05

said, yeah, I want to stay

22:07

there. So what they did, they put me

22:10

on RT Delaware, and it was

22:12

Dan Stuhr was the one zero of the

22:14

team. And he was building up

22:16

the team again. To this day, I

22:18

don't know why Dan was by himself on

22:20

that team. I don't know what happened. I

22:23

need to talk to him. I think he's on vacation right now.

22:26

But anyway, so

22:28

he made me his assistant team leader, because

22:31

I had quite a few missions when I was on the A team.

22:34

In fact, when I was on the that A

22:36

team at A502, on Sui out, I turned away

22:38

a ground attack. They tried to

22:40

overrun my camp and I turned them away. I

22:42

had a well fortified camp. So

22:46

so anyway, when I was there with

22:48

Dan on RT Delaware, we went on

22:51

one mission, we had another guy, Gary

22:54

Harness, and he came with us

22:56

on it. And then when we

22:58

came back again, after the mission, we almost got captured,

23:00

it was a it was a pretty rough mission. They

23:02

were supposed to put us in outside

23:04

of a regiment battalion, we were supposed to go in

23:07

and try and gather intelligence. And what they did is

23:09

they put us in between the

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details. And

26:00

that was a pretty scary mission. But so he

26:02

decided, you know, maybe it's time to just hang

26:04

up the, you know, the, whatever,

26:07

you know, your hat and go on,

26:09

do something else. Jim, if I'm

26:11

sorry, I apologize to interrupt. I just want to do

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28:52

so Jim, apologies for the interruption.

28:55

Let's jump right into it. You're team leader

28:57

on RT, it was Delaware, right? He

28:59

decides- I was assistant team leader. I

29:01

was assistant team leader, then Dan quit. Yeah, right,

29:04

right. And so then I'm

29:06

walking across the compound and the first

29:08

sergeant said, Jim, how would you like to

29:11

take over RT Delaware? I go, I just ran

29:13

one mission, you know? And he

29:15

goes, well, we think you're ready. And

29:18

I found out when I was talking to Dan Sturer a

29:20

couple years ago at the Special Ops reunion, he

29:22

goes, yeah, he says, I recommended you. Oh,

29:25

wow. I go, thanks, buddy. So then

29:27

I became the 1-0. And

29:31

then Gary Harned went on to RT

29:33

Pennsylvania and the whole team got, they blew the

29:36

chopper out of the air and they were all

29:38

killed. Really

29:40

sad. He was a good guy. They were

29:42

all good guys. And so

29:44

anyway, I had

29:47

to get a 1-1, an assistant team leader. And I

29:49

got a guy by the name of Homer Hungerford. And

29:52

Homer was, he

29:55

Had, when I knew him, he had seven and a half

29:57

years of combat. He Served in World War II. Korean.

30:00

War. and in Vietnam. Wow. Oh

30:02

yeah, and and then he does

30:05

that yield a hotel in Hawaii.

30:07

And. Them that he was can like

30:09

your Ernest Hemingway kind of guy. just like

30:12

him to. Abbott. Homers. Really? I

30:14

just a great guy and a lot of guys

30:16

in one. or rather than produce a little older.

30:19

And I asked homer I said you know. And

30:21

what would like to be my one one? my assistant

30:23

Dean litter? Neos. Yeah, I guess I want to get

30:25

out the field. So. I said of great

30:27

So he became my my system team leader. And

30:30

I use good and media had a

30:32

wealth of knowledge. Mcdonalds, You. Know

30:34

Ccl. I think there's a story their little

30:37

talks about. Aware run, They. Had

30:39

one guy that coward. Tower

30:41

don't they start shooting a gun? Yeah,

30:43

that was without when Blast Neutron? Yeah

30:45

yeah. So. I do that

30:47

homer he had experience in combat. I knew

30:50

he was he in a freak out, right?

30:52

right? That that was worth that's that's worth

30:54

a lot right there. Absolutely. So.

30:57

Anyway, so I took over the team and

30:59

dumb. As heck I think.

31:02

I can't. I think I have couple a

31:04

linear missions. Yelena Reagan is not true. Try

31:06

to find out what's gone on their. On.

31:09

Since. A couple road watch missions we got

31:11

and though to introduce count stressful by spray see

31:13

what's inside and they usually try to get those

31:15

missions going on this full moon so you can

31:18

see a little bit in their. This

31:20

is all know half. Hearted. This

31:23

is on wealth. Yeah,

31:25

Laos and Cambodia. Oklahoma Gotcha. Yeah.

31:29

And so then none. Then I had a bright

31:31

light. Miss was. I. Had a bright

31:33

light mission with Archie Illinois add. It

31:35

was de var keeper was the yard

31:37

that the team me to forge Illinois.

31:40

But. He was are Thursday leave. And.

31:42

So they asked me if I wouldn't mind taking

31:44

the the Rg Illinois up to doctor lives are

31:46

lost sight. And stand down for

31:48

bright lights and a bright light. Mission is

31:50

when it's a team, gets in trouble or

31:53

reject trashes. Whatever.

31:55

It needs your body. Have to go and get a body

31:57

out. so

32:00

They would send the team in. So you're going to,

32:02

you know, the bright lights are the most dangerous mission.

32:04

So, you know, you're going to go into a heavy

32:06

firefight. So anyway, they

32:09

asked me, I said, yeah, I'll go over and talk to the

32:11

team and, you know, let them get to know me a little

32:13

bit. And then we'll, we'll pack up my head up there. So

32:17

the choppers took us up the dock. And as soon as we

32:19

got there, a, they

32:21

had a team that got in trouble. But

32:24

I think he had one or two guys killed. They

32:26

got, they got the bodies out. And I think they, I

32:28

think they had to leave one body there. And

32:31

then there was, when they were coming out on ropes, they

32:33

were coming out on strings, a stable rig, 120 foot ropes.

32:37

So when they were coming out on those ropes, a

32:39

bullet or something hit a rope, but the rope broke.

32:41

And one of the guys fell to his death. It was one of the

32:43

monomers. So he fell to his

32:45

death and they wanted us to go in there and get his body out

32:48

there in case he had any intel on him. Cause

32:50

you know, cause you know that there was nobody supposed to

32:52

be in Laos, Cambodia. Right.

32:55

Right. And I, I asked them

32:57

the situation and everything and how many enemy

32:59

and they estimated around 350 enemy

33:01

they got hit with. So I said,

33:03

well, I don't have time for two helicopters. I

33:06

said, what I'm going to do is I'm just going to take one

33:08

helicopter. And at that time, Steve Keibert

33:10

came up on the helicopters and he got off

33:12

the helicopter. And I go, Steve, what are you doing here? He

33:15

goes, they just got back from leave. And I told him,

33:17

I says, well, we got a bright light mission. You want to go? I

33:19

mean, I can just see the wheels turning. Yeah. I

33:21

just got back from leave and I'm going to go, you know,

33:24

and then it didn't help matters and I said, I'm just

33:26

taking two other guys and myself, you know,

33:29

so that's because there's four ropes

33:31

and I had to leave one rope open for

33:33

the body. So we went ahead

33:35

and we flew in, we repelled in and they couldn't

33:37

get us on the ground. Uh,

33:39

that it was triple canopy, you know, it was

33:41

really high. So the chopper just came down, just started

33:43

mowing down the, the jungle, trying to get us

33:45

down on the ground. So we got

33:48

on the ground, we unhooked, you know, cause there's

33:50

stable rigs that you're repelling down on, you

33:52

know, not the stable rig, but the rope, you know, and

33:55

it's got a bag at the bottom of it. You can't

33:57

just, you know, right. So

34:01

we got in the ground, we unhooked, and

34:03

Cobra Gunship flew overhead and he goes, hey,

34:05

my code name was the wild carrot because

34:07

I had really bright red hair, and

34:09

he goes, hey, carrot, follow me. So

34:11

we go up this hill and I can see the rope

34:13

in the tree where it came down, it whipped and wept

34:16

around a branch, I could see it. And

34:18

we dug the guy up and told him, come

34:20

and get us. And we can hear the

34:22

enemy coming, you can hear him screaming and yelling because, they

34:25

didn't care if we knew where they were or not. They just come

34:27

running up the hill trying to get us. So

34:30

they came overhead, they dropped the ropes,

34:32

we hooked the body up, the

34:34

other guys up, they hooked me up, and

34:36

then they just started pulling us up. So

34:39

when they pull us up and we got about

34:41

halfway through the triple canopy, we could see the

34:43

enemy coming, but they're all shooting at the helicopter

34:45

because when they get to get the helicopter, they

34:47

got all of us. But the chopper took

34:50

a lot of hits, but he managed to get out of

34:53

there. He pulled us up and got out and

34:55

I'm just sitting

34:57

there saying, I could hear the bullets whizzing by,

35:00

but they weren't pregnant to sound very because they're shooting

35:02

up, they slowed down a little bit.

35:05

So I could hear all that and then the brass was

35:07

falling down on us and an

35:09

A-20 Sky Raider came right underneath

35:11

me, just like 50 feet underneath

35:13

me and he just waves at

35:16

me like this. And

35:19

he's firing rockets with flechettes

35:21

and everything. And you can

35:23

see the white smoke when it leaves the,

35:25

the, when he's Sky Raider. So when

35:27

he first left the Sky Raider, you can see the

35:30

white smoke, but when it gets halfway to the ground,

35:32

you get this puff of big orange smoke and it

35:34

just blows all like thousands of flechettes out there.

35:37

So that we got out of there and I'm getting, you know, dear

35:39

God, get us out of here, man. That was

35:41

a freaky mission, but none of us got hurt. You

35:43

know, we got out of there and we got back

35:45

to it. And there was one

35:48

that you, you shared a picture with me where

35:51

you guys were able to actually do a prisoner

35:53

snatch, which I know was a huge thing for

35:55

SOG. You guys were actually successful in nabbing a

35:57

few. All the

35:59

three. I took around 15 prisoners when I was

36:01

in Vietnam. I didn't take any

36:04

in Laos or Cambodia. I wanted to

36:06

grab one one time but I was

36:08

strap hanging on another team and

36:11

Joe VanDyger had the team and

36:13

so I went out with him and

36:15

we decided to take a break. We were

36:17

doing a linear recon and we're just sitting

36:20

there on the ground and we didn't know

36:22

but we're only a couple of feet from a

36:24

trail because the jungle's so thick we

36:26

didn't get to the trail yet and we didn't know there was

36:29

a trail there. So we're there and all of a sudden we

36:31

can hear this voice you know guy speaking and

36:33

you see them and they walk like not

36:35

even three feet four feet away from me. Just

36:38

walks right by me and I'm looking at and

36:40

you know when your heart's beating your body's shaking

36:42

like this you know and I'm sitting there

36:44

going man these guys I'm just waiting for the bullets to go

36:46

through me you know but they just walked right on by just

36:49

walked right and I wanted to get up

36:51

and grab one. There was three of them that walked by

36:53

us and I figured we could take two guys out and

36:55

take one of the guys or take them all you know

36:57

and what I would have

36:59

done but Joe said no he said we don't know

37:02

who's behind him and I figured I would

37:04

have taken I would have taken a chance but he was the team

37:06

leader on that one so but

37:09

the yeah I would have just put

37:11

him on stable race and just had him haul them

37:13

back by themselves just tie him up blindfold and take

37:15

him back. Yeah they're probably not going anywhere while they'll

37:17

hung up on the strings. Yeah they're not going to

37:19

go anywhere and the guys in the cocktail are going

37:21

to be out there with weapons anyway in case anything

37:23

happens so and they're not going

37:26

to be able to untie themselves and get off that stable rig.

37:28

Once you're on a stable rig you can't get off

37:30

it until you're on the ground. Yeah. Because those hooks

37:32

are way up here way up high. So

37:36

we have them on here on here but it pulls

37:39

way up. Yeah. And then that

37:41

bag that comes down has these straps that come down

37:43

with the hooks on them so you can't

37:45

really get to them. So

37:48

but anyway that that that was that mission

37:50

and let me see where can

37:52

we go from there. Well tell us some of the other ones that

37:54

were where you did take some prisoners. Those

37:57

were in Vietnam and when I was when

37:59

I was that Sui Yao on that

38:01

outpost, we knew

38:04

there was a hospital up on the hill. One of

38:06

the other

38:08

camps, just, you

38:10

see it would be north of

38:12

me. There was a camp up there

38:15

that got overrun. I

38:17

went in as a reaction force to it and

38:20

it was pretty nasty. There was

38:22

a whole bunch of, everybody was, it was a mess. I

38:25

mean, you know, enemy blown in half

38:27

and hands blown off and arms and legs gone.

38:29

It was horrible. But we

38:32

went up there, we knew there was a hospital up

38:35

there and that's where these guys were taking their wounded

38:37

after a battle. So what I wanted

38:39

to do is go up there and capture somebody going

38:41

up into the hills and find out where the hospital

38:43

was. So I

38:45

went ahead, set up an

38:47

ambush site and a bunch

38:50

of people came through and they were

38:52

mostly VC, Vietcong. And we

38:54

ended up getting a two NVA. And

38:57

one was a nurse and I think, I think

38:59

that male was a nurse too. There's one woman

39:01

and two men, but we took those

39:03

guys and got them

39:05

back. And the

39:08

sad thing in Vietnam is that when

39:10

you take these prisoners, you know, we talk

39:12

to them, interrogate them, then we turn them

39:14

over to the district chief. The

39:16

district chief will say something like, I'm going to

39:19

let you go, but please tell your commander not

39:21

to hit our town. Or village, you

39:24

know, just leave us alone. We'll let you go. So they do

39:26

that. And that was a big thing over there. So

39:28

in fact, one of the guys, one

39:31

of the guys that I took as a prisoner was

39:33

a Montagnard. And he was,

39:35

he was, he was sitting there

39:38

making chopsticks. He had some chopsticks in

39:40

and I told him, I said, Hey,

39:42

why don't you make me a set of chopsticks? And

39:45

he goes, No, this isn't very good wood. He said,

39:47

I'll get some good wood and I'll get them to

39:49

you. So when the guy was in this little prison

39:51

jail, wherever it was, where they send them, one

39:54

day I'm walking across the main compound on my

39:56

day off. So I'm walking across

39:58

and at the main camp. And this

40:01

guy comes up and he says hey somebody told me

40:03

to give these to you. I've got the chopsticks in

40:05

my kitchen The

40:08

guy he actually made me a set of chopsticks, so

40:10

it's kind of weird so But

40:13

yeah taking prisoners in Vietnam where I was was

40:15

not that hard it really was Guys

40:18

and saw think you know wow you know I

40:20

never took a prisoner, but I said I never

40:22

took a prisoner in SOG either That's interesting. Yeah,

40:24

because it's it's a whole different ballgame right right

40:27

right you're out there totally by yourself Yeah,

40:29

I mean it's like in Vietnam. You

40:32

got all the Americans fighting They're all in their

40:34

camps, and you see five or six guys walking

40:36

by you can take them out Yeah, put them

40:38

on a cheap, and I can't vote. It's the

40:40

same thing. It's just reversed. We're five or

40:42

six guys All

40:44

the enemy there you know There

40:46

were not afraid to come after you there

40:48

was also you know the in we've talked about this

40:50

on the show before But one of the other things

40:53

that made SOG like

40:55

very dangerous and very challenging for you

40:57

guys is like

41:00

headquarters It

41:02

was getting leaked right that there

41:04

were there the headquarters had been

41:06

infiltrated so almost anything you guys

41:08

did The the Vietnamese

41:10

or the NBA like knew what you guys

41:12

were gonna do Yeah,

41:15

I mean we had guys going out in the field, and they'd

41:18

say Sergeant so-and-so welcome to

41:20

LZ number two they actually had

41:22

signs set up. Yeah, we have one team that

41:24

went in I can't remember was the

41:26

CCN team or one of our teams CCS

41:29

folded up for pretty early. You

41:32

know when they made that big push into Cambodia, so

41:34

CCS shut down pretty early But

41:38

the This guy he

41:41

goes he goes in it gets in the

41:43

LZ I never went

41:45

in on LZ I went on LZ's when I went

41:47

without the teams as a strap hanger But

41:50

when I went in I never went on an LZ

41:52

because I always knew there's gonna be somebody there watching

41:54

it right I either dealt in or went out by

41:56

ladder but this

42:00

guy gets off the helicopter, he's starting to

42:02

run off the LZ. And

42:04

this an officer,

42:06

North Vietnamese officer steps out

42:08

around a tree. And he

42:10

just says, Sergeant so and so call your

42:13

helicopters back, get on it and go. And

42:15

he called the helicopters back and said, Come

42:17

and get us. Yeah. Yeah. We

42:19

have a decision at that point. Yeah,

42:22

when he's got the colonies to step out behind

42:24

a tree like that. Yeah, you can bet you're

42:26

gonna go. Yeah. It was a

42:28

totally different kind of a war in Laos, Cambodia.

42:31

Any other missions that you were on with SOG that,

42:33

you know, really stick out your mind that you'd like

42:35

to talk about before we move on? There

42:39

was, I had one mission where

42:42

the guy lost a man on his previous mission. And

42:44

so the SBA pilot strap hang and help him out. So

42:46

I went over and I taught him his name was Hill.

42:51

And I can't remember, I don't remember the

42:53

name of the team. I wrote it down some place so I

42:55

wouldn't forget it. And I did. But

42:58

anyway, so I asked him, I

43:00

told him, I said, I heard you lost man, you lost

43:02

mission, you got a mission coming up. He goes, Yeah, I

43:04

said, I'll run with you. And now

43:07

he's got two team leaders, right? So

43:10

he said, Thanks, I really appreciate that. And he

43:12

goes, we're going in a couple of couple of

43:14

days if you want to do a photo, you

43:17

know, aerial recon. So I flew over and I

43:19

checked out the area, it was all flash and

43:21

burn. And I

43:23

asked him, I said, What is the mission anyway, he goes,

43:26

they want to go knock out a tank. And

43:28

I've got how you think me.

43:32

I said, there's gonna be thousands of enemy around

43:34

that tank. It's not be bumping down the road.

43:36

It's not a lot. So

43:39

anyway, we we used to we go and we take

43:41

off and we go in, we go in our primary,

43:44

and the bullets are flying all over the place, you

43:46

can hear him hitting the helicopter, none of us got

43:48

hit. So but the bullets are flying

43:50

all over the place. So then we take off out

43:52

of there goes put us in our secondary. So we

43:54

go over to the secondary, try to go in same

43:57

thing, both are hitting the helicopter flying all, none of

43:59

us got hit. So he'll

44:01

get up between the pilot and the co-pilot

44:03

and says, hey, push down over there.

44:06

So go over there and we're getting down really close to

44:08

the ground. Then all of a sudden the bullets

44:10

start flying again all over the place and are hitting the helicopter.

44:13

And I hear

44:15

a hill going, I'm hit, I'm hit, I'm hit. So

44:17

I reach across and I grab his arm and hold

44:19

onto him because of the centrifugal force. Because

44:21

he's laying on the deck, you know. So I'm holding

44:23

onto him and they pull us out of there and

44:26

then they cancelled that mission. But that was

44:28

a pretty, that was hellacious. Being in

44:30

a helicopter getting hit with that many rounds,

44:32

I mean it's a lot of rounds and

44:34

it's pretty scary. What's shocking is

44:36

the bullets going through the helicopter and nobody

44:38

getting hit. It's just somebody watching

44:41

over us. Let

44:44

me see, I had some others. Let's see, what

44:46

was some of the others? I

44:50

had a bright light where some guys parachuted in, they

44:52

got separated. It was Paul Boyd.

44:55

We flew in, but it was,

44:57

there was, we had no problems at

44:59

all. We just went ahead and just

45:01

dropped the ladder, we climbed, we hooked onto the ladder.

45:03

We don't climb the ladders. We just

45:05

hook in to the ladder and just fly out hanging

45:07

on the ladder. So, but we got

45:09

him back out and there was no problems. I

45:13

had another, I'm trying to say, I

45:15

know I had some other missions. But

45:17

I had another bright light, which

45:20

is Cobra 4. And

45:24

that's the, that's that one there was a, it

45:26

was a Cobra 4, it was an

45:28

F4 Phantom that, two pilots in

45:30

the aircraft. And they were going

45:32

in to blow up a bridge

45:34

in Cambodia. And they took

45:36

a 51 caliber round and it, they lost

45:39

their hydraulics, hit the first hill, went

45:41

across, hit the second hill and landed on

45:43

the third hill. And

45:45

the engines, when they hit the first hill, the

45:48

engines, the motors just left the fuselage and they

45:50

traveled, they landed not too far, like about a

45:52

hundred meters or so from where the jet landed.

45:54

Wow. But that

45:56

one I went in on.

46:00

I went down a short ladder

46:03

and got on the ground. I waited for the homer

46:05

to come in on the next ladder. I had a

46:08

seven man team. I always ran

46:10

a seven man team. I always kept a string open or

46:12

a ladder open for a POW. But

46:16

anyway, they got on the ground.

46:18

We waited for the leaves to break and

46:20

stop falling and wait for our

46:22

ears to pop because you're coming from altitude down.

46:26

And we take off and we start going down this

46:28

hill. And where the jet went through it,

46:30

it was all burned out. I walked down

46:32

the hill just a little bit. And all of a

46:35

sudden I catch three guys, three enemy off from my

46:37

right. And one of them's got a weapon

46:39

on me. And the other two

46:41

guys I couldn't tell, they were behind a bush. And

46:44

I figured if they were gonna shoot, they would have already

46:46

shot me. So I told my guys,

46:48

I said, comp zone, comp zone, don't shoot. And

46:51

because they're mountain yards, but they understand the

46:54

Vietnamese phrases. So, but

46:56

anyway, I just told the guys with my rifle, I said,

46:58

move on. And

47:00

so they left. And that, cause my job was

47:02

to try to get the pilots. I didn't want it to deal

47:04

with all this other stuff. So anyway, I

47:06

go ahead and I walked down a little further

47:08

and I started seeing bunkers. And

47:12

I started

47:14

seeing these bunkers and

47:17

I walked a little bit further. And

47:19

I see this graveyard with a communist

47:21

star over. And I go

47:23

in there and I counted about six,

47:25

seven graves. When DPAA, Defense POW, MIA,

47:27

accounting agency went in, they counted, they

47:29

found 13 bodies in there. So they're

47:31

probably stacking them inside one grave. And

47:35

then I went a little further and I saw this

47:37

meeting room on stilts, 20 by 20 foot.

47:41

And all bamboo. So we

47:43

go up the hill a little bit. I found a boot with

47:45

a foot in it. It was an

47:47

American boot, but it was a indigenous foot.

47:50

So we put that in the rucksack and we

47:53

go ahead and head up the hill a bit further.

47:55

And then all of a sudden I can hear these

47:57

trucks and everything coming down the Hoachman trail. The

48:01

the pilots overhead said you got six truckloads

48:03

of enemy two armored cars and a whole

48:05

bunch of troops running behind it So

48:07

I tried to get up the hill I got to the

48:09

top I found a bomb laying there and at

48:12

first I thought it was a bomb from the hochman trail and

48:14

they were dissecting for The comp B to get it out there

48:16

make natural charges But apparently

48:18

I think it's it came from

48:20

from the f4 that ground So

48:23

and then I noticed all these square patterns on

48:25

the deck on the floor on you know And

48:28

so I realized this was some kind of a

48:30

village or something an enemy village and

48:32

we saw some whooches Around the area

48:35

and and the whole the whole village

48:37

was had bamboo woven over the top of

48:39

it It was all woven over the top. So

48:41

you couldn't see it from the air except for where the

48:43

jet went through So

48:45

and I had Homer go from one direction

48:47

I went on another direction and we picked

48:50

up pit helmets uniforms belts Medicinal

48:52

bottles and you pick up all that stuff

48:54

and then you set up the Saigon and

48:56

they can analyze it and try to figure

48:58

out What unit it is that has

49:00

that and they can see where the unit

49:03

is going from here to here to here so they can

49:05

figure out what direction they're going so

49:07

we did that and then

49:09

we we I saw the jet on the other

49:11

hill but and The

49:14

the guys up above, you know, the guys

49:16

are flying over us They said we got to get

49:19

you out of there and I said, I'm not to

49:21

the other hill He goes well if we keep we're

49:23

running out of ammo because they're firing like crazy trying

49:25

to get these enemy down I mean

49:27

the miniguns were going right over my head. Just I

49:30

mean it felt I thought they were gonna hit me in the head they were so low

49:33

and But the

49:35

enemy started coming up the hill after us

49:38

and I said, okay, you know go ahead and

49:40

get us out and so I had the one

49:42

shopper come in Homer took off with two guys

49:44

and Then the next

49:46

chopper comes in and just as he's

49:48

coming in he's like a hundred feet away The enemy

49:50

starts coming through the bushes and one gets an RPG

49:52

off I can hit in the arm the chest and

49:54

I said, I straddled on my wrist But

49:57

we're keeping the enemy down and I had two

50:00

gunships on both sides of the Huey and he's coming

50:02

in and I said I want you to parallel that

50:04

Huey and I just want you to shoot into these

50:06

these the jungle as much as you can they

50:08

keep these guys down and we're shooting like crazy but

50:10

he comes in they drop the ladders we hook into

50:12

the ladder and then they pick up and they got

50:14

us out of the chopper took him oh when the

50:17

chopper was coming in I thought he got

50:19

hit with an RPG because as I'm jumping on the

50:21

ladder and hooking in I hear this boom

50:23

big loud bang and I thought I was

50:25

waiting for it come down on top of

50:27

me and what happened is the gunner was shooting

50:29

so furiously into trying to get the bad guys down

50:32

that he wasn't watching the rotor and the rotor

50:35

hit a tree he knocked

50:37

two feet of his rotor off on both both

50:39

rotors wow he managed to get us

50:41

out of there but he still got us up and

50:43

got us out of there and I could see the

50:45

trucks down there I could see the the

50:47

jet over on the other hill but I couldn't get to it you

50:50

know and I so I

50:52

went back in I

50:54

went back in 2000 no

50:58

yeah 2002 I went back to

51:00

Cambodia and on my own dime

51:02

and I hired six Cambodian

51:04

Rangers they were park Rangers not like

51:06

military Rangers and because

51:08

the Radekin carry provinces right there south of

51:11

the tribe order and it's a big game

51:13

refuge so well I had these

51:15

guys and I said hey you know I'd like

51:17

them I'd like for you guys to

51:19

I'm looking for some guys

51:22

to go with me take me up there I want to take

51:24

some pictures of wildlife and stuff and

51:26

he goes I'll see what I can do

51:28

so I got this park ranger guy that

51:30

he was the son of the province chief

51:33

which turns out that saved my butt later

51:36

on but the we

51:38

got together I told him what I was really gonna do

51:40

and he goes oh I know the jet

51:42

crash I go really he goes yeah

51:44

he goes it'll take us 10 days to get

51:47

there so we hiked for about a

51:49

hundred miles going up into there and it took

51:51

us 10 days to get up there when I

51:53

first started it was killing me because

51:55

I was in my 50s so I turned around

51:57

I said let's go back and I started jogging

52:00

and running and exercising and

52:02

trying to get myself in shape and then we

52:04

took off again and then we made it. Ten

52:06

days, got up there. We spent three days there.

52:09

We found the jet and I realized

52:11

then that there was no way that I

52:13

was going to be able to get to

52:16

that jet fast enough from that second hill

52:18

because it was just like that. It was

52:20

really steep. So

52:22

anyway, we did that. I found parts of the jet.

52:25

I brought parts of the jet back, gave them to

52:27

the family. I haven't

52:29

met the other family yet. It

52:31

was Eric Huberth and

52:34

Alan Trent. Eric

52:36

Huberth's family and I are still pretty close, but

52:40

I haven't contacted Alan Trent's family. I'm

52:43

hoping that Huberth's family, they're in touch with him and I'd

52:45

like to get him in the piece of the jet if

52:47

they would like it. So I've still

52:50

got a piece down there. That's incredible Jim.

52:52

Your 1-1 Huberth is the man. What was that guy like 45

52:54

at the time

52:58

when he was doing all of this? Yeah,

53:00

he was about that age. That's amazing.

53:03

Yeah. Hardcore. He passed away in 2014

53:05

and I think he was in his 90s. Yeah,

53:10

that's a long spell right there. Good

53:12

for him. That's amazing.

53:15

For the disposition, at

53:18

the time, how did the government

53:20

handle these two pilots that went down in

53:22

Cambodia when obviously

53:24

we didn't have anybody in

53:27

Cambodia? Well,

53:29

DPA knows that they knew there was people

53:32

over there. There's still a bunch of people

53:34

missing over there. We

53:36

may never find them because the minerals in the soil,

53:38

it's acidic and

53:41

it destroys the bones. One

53:43

of the interesting things, well, I'll get to that in

53:45

a minute. Anyway,

53:48

when I went back again in 2002, we stayed

53:50

there for three days. On the third day,

53:56

we got held up by bandits. What

54:00

saved my butt is they didn't want to have to

54:02

deal with the province chief's son. Yeah. So

54:05

they came out in the bush of the AKs and they

54:07

were screaming at us and you know I don't

54:09

know what they're talking about, I can't speak Cambodian. So

54:11

anyway, the next day we were leaving anyway.

54:14

So it took us 10 days to get back. I threw a

54:16

party for the guys and then from there I went up to

54:18

Laos and went up to Ho Chi Minh Trail. We'll be up

54:20

there and checked everything out. A lot

54:22

of damage. I got a picture of, I think I sent you

54:24

the picture of the truck with the bomb sitting on it next

54:27

to the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Yes,

54:29

yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

54:31

that and I found tanks

54:33

that were blown up, you know, from guys dropping, you

54:36

know, our guys dropping bombs on them. Found

54:39

all kinds of like 30, 36

54:41

millimeter aircraft weapons and stuff. All

54:44

kinds of 51 machine gun,

54:46

you know, 51 caliber machine guns. All

54:48

kinds of stuff up in there. Sam missiles were

54:50

still there. So if we're to wind back to,

54:53

you know, from 2002 back to what was it

54:55

about 1970, 1971, when

55:00

that mission happened? May of 1970. When

55:04

the mission took place. How did

55:07

Vietnam start to wind down for you

55:09

personally? I mean, you finished your tour

55:11

with SF over there. What

55:15

was that like for you in returning back home

55:17

and, you know, the next stage of your life,

55:19

really? Well, I didn't

55:21

want to leave. I

55:24

missed my flight home twice. Yeah,

55:29

I just rather go out on a mission. The

55:31

second time I missed my flight home. I

55:35

taught what, you know, when I left CCC, I went down

55:37

to beat 53 and I trained a lot of the guys

55:40

for one zero school to be team leaders. And

55:42

I taught infile, exfil and POW

55:44

snatch. And so

55:48

when when I was down there,

55:50

our team came down from the

55:52

end to go through the POW

55:54

snatch school and they were going

55:56

out to take a prisoner. Well, I wasn't about to miss

55:58

out on that. I

56:00

got my gear and I'm walking out early in the morning The

56:05

first sergeant comes walking out there was Burlard

56:07

Glenn a virile our Glenn

56:09

is an amazing man He had stars

56:11

all over his master blaster wings He

56:13

made every possible combat jump you can make during

56:16

the Korean War and Second World War wrong They

56:18

had two jumps going on at one time so he

56:21

only can make one but Anyway,

56:23

he sees me. He goes. Hey Jones. Where you going?

56:25

I said I'm going out on this mission. He

56:28

goes Aren't you supposed to be going

56:30

home? I go damn top the thumbs

56:32

will be going home. Let me know man I

56:34

didn't I haven't heard anything Because

56:39

if I find out you're supposed to be going

56:41

home, I go really top I haven't heard anything

56:43

You know, please let me know if I'm I'm but

56:45

I'd like to go home And so anyway, so I

56:47

go out on the mission I come back and man

56:49

as soon as I got that shocker man I walked

56:51

into those obviously guys They

56:53

pack his bags marches out the cops and

56:55

get him out of plane and get him

56:57

out of here So

57:01

I finally so they kicked you out of Vietnam that's

57:03

how it came about Yeah,

57:05

pretty much. You know because I would have stayed, you know One

57:08

of the things that with the with saw is the

57:10

guys don't want to leave their buddies, you know, yeah

57:14

They you know, it's it's a camaraderie, you know,

57:16

like we're we know we're both going We

57:18

know what we're going through and you don't want to leave them

57:20

there by themselves You don't want to go on this mission, you

57:22

know, like man if you're going on a mission I want to

57:24

go with you to make sure you're gonna be safe, you

57:26

know, that kind of thing and a lot

57:30

of the guys like what they would say is that

57:33

How do you know when to quit some of the guys

57:35

would say that when my uniform falls apart? I can't

57:37

wear it anymore. It's time to quit. Yeah, because

57:39

I was saying uniform on every mission and that

57:42

uniforms in a museum now So really which museum

57:44

can we go see it in? There's a guy

57:46

named Jason Hardy. Yeah, Jason is

57:48

building a museum You

57:50

know who he is. No, I don't is it is it

57:52

gonna be a sock museum or Vietnam or what's the I

57:56

think it's pretty much Sog, okay, because he's the

57:58

guy that wrote all the books on On

58:01

the patches and all the themes and everything

58:03

cool. Yeah, it's like a six or seven

58:05

volume set cool It's always gonna have

58:08

a museum. Yeah, he's getting

58:10

it all together for a museum. That's awesome. So

58:12

you bought my uniform He

58:15

bought it. I gave him some I gave him some

58:17

original maps I made copies of the maps

58:19

because I don't care if they're original or not, but I Over

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lost. Gave the copies I Gave

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59:56

was a black uniform. I gave him that

1:00:01

So, but yeah, Jason Harvey's quite a good

1:00:04

guy, real good guy. I was just talking to him just the other day.

1:00:06

I was trying to get the name to find out what Team

1:00:08

Hill was on it when I went home. I

1:00:11

didn't even know what team it was. So, you

1:00:13

get kicked out of Vietnam and now

1:00:15

you're still in special forces. I mean,

1:00:17

what was the next step for you?

1:00:21

I came back to the States. Well, they wanted me

1:00:23

to be an officer. They asked

1:00:25

me three times and the third time I said, what

1:00:27

I got to do? And I said, well, you're going

1:00:30

to have to react. And I go, I said, you

1:00:32

know, I've got a high school diploma. I'm

1:00:35

not going to last as an officer. They're going

1:00:37

to risk me back to a sergeant or something. So

1:00:40

I went ahead and said, I want to go

1:00:42

back to space and I want to get an

1:00:44

education, go to college. So I came back

1:00:46

to the States and I joined

1:00:48

the special forces reserves. And that team turned

1:00:50

over to underwater operation. They sent the whole

1:00:52

team down to Key West. We all passed.

1:00:55

We all did really good. But

1:00:57

we had a team started that pumped it into

1:00:59

us. We didn't go out and party at night.

1:01:01

We studied every night really hard. I

1:01:03

got a 99 on the test. My

1:01:06

dive partner got a 99. Everybody got

1:01:08

97, 98. We

1:01:11

did really good on the written tests and stuff. So

1:01:16

let me see where I go from there. When

1:01:19

I was there, as when I was a police officer

1:01:21

in San Jose Police Department. Then

1:01:24

I ended up getting a divorce and

1:01:26

I was married. So I ended up getting

1:01:29

a divorce. So what I decided

1:01:31

to do is I was teaching the pair

1:01:33

of rescue guys night vision and

1:01:36

submachine guns

1:01:40

and stuff like that, firing weapons. I

1:01:44

didn't know who these guys were. I didn't know what PJs were. So

1:01:48

anyway, they told me what they did. They were

1:01:50

doing this stuff all the time. I was bored to death. If

1:01:58

you go into the green parade, you're going to be in the green parade. You're

1:02:00

going to be a green braid to go fight a

1:02:02

war right? There's nothing going on after a while cross

1:02:05

training gets old. Yeah, so So

1:02:08

I went ahead and went on down and saw

1:02:10

if these guys were doing and I

1:02:12

saw their equipment My gosh, they

1:02:14

had aerator scuba tanks, you know that you

1:02:17

jump with twin tanks. So you're packing, you

1:02:19

know, so it's a few ladies Yeah, yeah,

1:02:22

and they had all this

1:02:24

climbing gear. They had all

1:02:26

kinds of stuff and I'm going damn

1:02:29

You know, so I went back to the 18 and

1:02:32

I told that Jimmy Gaston was my

1:02:34

team sergeant and I told Jack said

1:02:36

Jimmy I said I'm gonna go be a PJ. He

1:02:39

goes no you can't you can't be a

1:02:41

PJ. I go. Yeah, I'm born He

1:02:43

goes no, you're your your family. You can't leave

1:02:45

the team. I go man. I'm bored to death

1:02:47

Jimmy So

1:02:51

I left I went down and As

1:02:54

guys named zell richman who's in charge of

1:02:56

the PA section He shows me

1:02:58

this letter where PJ's need to have more combat

1:03:00

training and I'm going well, you know I'd

1:03:03

like to just kind of do all this other stuff. I

1:03:05

don't want to teach combat stuff And

1:03:07

so he goes well, that's your ticket in I go Well if

1:03:09

I have to so I went ahead

1:03:11

and did that and I they put me through a

1:03:13

little mini training thing to make sure I can pass

1:03:15

the school and that was a piece

1:03:17

of cake for me. And so then I went down to school

1:03:19

and Passed

1:03:22

everything through school everything I hit they told

1:03:24

me they would you know The

1:03:26

Air Force has what they call Air Force now

1:03:28

films and it's to get the young guys interested

1:03:30

in the staying in the Air Force and promoting

1:03:32

into another field if they have want to and

1:03:36

So they were doing an Air Force now film so

1:03:38

we were doing our full scuba jumps out down in

1:03:40

Florida off the coast there and I

1:03:43

jump out of the plane and I've got

1:03:45

you know, probably 150

1:03:47

jumps out of C 130s at this time, you

1:03:49

know, and so they told me says oh you

1:03:51

hit the door I Go The

1:03:55

door Goes yeah, you

1:03:57

hit that door. I go what I

1:03:59

said Then I find out they're doing an Air

1:04:02

Force Now film and they wanted the

1:04:04

young guys my assistant because I was in charge of

1:04:06

the group So they

1:04:08

wanted my assistant to be the guy in

1:04:10

charge because they're all young guys and I was an

1:04:12

old fart So, you know, I didn't

1:04:14

know how old I was I think I was 30 I

1:04:21

was a I was a I was

1:04:23

the oldest guy for like about a week

1:04:25

that went through PJ training Then

1:04:28

there was a guy that like two

1:04:30

weeks behind me and the

1:04:32

guy was phenomenal The guy

1:04:35

was like my age, but he he

1:04:37

whipped that training like like it was

1:04:40

nothing. I Mean

1:04:42

he was built. He was in good shape

1:04:44

thin a lot of muscle and he made

1:04:46

me look bad, but So

1:04:49

anyway, I finished the school

1:04:51

and oh no I went down to school and they told me I hit the

1:04:53

doors I had to wait for the next cycle to come through It's

1:04:56

for them to do the scuba jumps And so I went through

1:04:58

I threw and I jumped and I find out to do in

1:05:00

this Air Force Now Film and that's

1:05:02

why they actually told me I hit the door

1:05:05

because they didn't want me to graduate the class because

1:05:07

they were doing this film so

1:05:10

The next time I go out there I jump out of the you can't

1:05:12

help you got over a hundred pounds of gear on you

1:05:14

How do you jump out

1:05:17

of that friggin hell? You know So

1:05:20

I I used to bark put my arm against

1:05:22

my side and put it against the door and

1:05:24

I just swing out So like a pendulum right

1:05:26

and that's how I went out And so I

1:05:28

went ahead and got out of the plane I

1:05:30

get it I land on water to go whoa

1:05:32

You left that door by 10 feet. I go

1:05:34

you're so fat so

1:05:39

anyway, I got one up, you know when I

1:05:41

got came back to the it's

1:05:44

a Where they have to be

1:05:46

go train for PJ train. It's in New Mexico

1:05:48

Albuquerque, New Mexico Kirkland

1:05:50

Air Force Base So I

1:05:53

go there and I'm walking I'm sitting in the class

1:05:55

and then they call me up to the front of

1:05:57

room They give me my beret and my my certificate

1:06:00

And they were gonna take a picture. I go,

1:06:02

now I'm out of here. I just left. I

1:06:05

was so furious and pissed at them. So I

1:06:07

got my Volkswagen van and drove all the way

1:06:09

back to 129th and started doing missions. So. So.

1:06:13

And you know, because you talked about,

1:06:16

you know, being SF and being bored

1:06:18

because the SF mission is a combat

1:06:20

mission, but these Para-Russ you

1:06:23

guys were like doing missions all

1:06:25

the time. Can you talk a little bit

1:06:27

about that mission? Why they were

1:06:29

so active and what about that appealed to you? Well,

1:06:35

I've always kind of pushed the envelope, you

1:06:37

know. I, yeah, I've

1:06:39

always pushed the envelope just a little bit. But

1:06:43

the idea of making jumps out in the middle of

1:06:45

the ocean, making parachute jumps into

1:06:47

the mountains for plane crashes, doing

1:06:50

a lot of, most of it was civilian stuff. Yeah.

1:06:53

You know, civilians on ships, plane crashes, you

1:06:55

know. We had one where the plane crashed

1:06:57

and there was a husband, wife, and two

1:07:00

girls in there and they were all killed.

1:07:03

But they got the

1:07:05

girls, the guy out, I mean the wife

1:07:07

out, but the husband, we had to leave.

1:07:09

He was halfway out one window and half

1:07:12

out the front window of the plane. And

1:07:14

we just cabled the plane down, left it

1:07:16

there. And then during the summertime when the

1:07:18

snow and everything melts, then Sheriff Hartman will

1:07:20

go in and get the remains. But

1:07:24

all that kind of stuff just really, it

1:07:27

had home with me. Yeah. You know, I just

1:07:29

just said the thrill of mountain

1:07:32

climbing and, because we did a

1:07:34

lot of mountain climbing, you know. We

1:07:36

had got, we used to work on McKinley all the time, you

1:07:40

know, just practicing ice climbing and stuff. Ruth's

1:07:43

Glacier, climb

1:07:45

Mount Shasta, Mount Hood up in Oregon. I

1:07:48

was one of the paramedics for when Mount St. Helen blew.

1:07:51

We did that kind of work, you know, we'd go up there and look for

1:07:54

remains. I was also a

1:07:56

paramedic for the space shuttle, you

1:07:58

know, for the first three landings. was a modate

1:08:00

contingency. So the first three landings had

1:08:02

only the pilot and the commander. So

1:08:07

if anything happened, they could bail out of it. They

1:08:09

had ejection seats. But when they put

1:08:11

a third person in there, they disconnected the ejection seats.

1:08:14

So that took me out

1:08:16

of the picture. Because if they

1:08:18

had to eject, then I would parachute in and take care of them.

1:08:21

So they had other PJs that did the other work

1:08:23

for when it landed. If you look at

1:08:25

the shuttle lands like at

1:08:28

Edwards Air Force Base, you see these

1:08:30

guys with the suits on, the tanks,

1:08:33

and their breathing oxygen. And they're testing

1:08:35

the space shuttle for poisonous gases. So

1:08:38

those are all PJs. And what they do is they,

1:08:40

those two big arms that go

1:08:42

into the back end of the shuttle, you see there,

1:08:44

those are what they're doing is they're freezing all the

1:08:46

gases. So if they freeze all the gases,

1:08:48

then the PJs go in, they test all the air

1:08:50

to make sure it's stable. And then they open it

1:08:52

up and let the astronauts come out. So

1:08:55

those guys continued with the missions. But

1:08:58

I stopped after STS-1, 2, and 3. I

1:09:01

mean, that's a whole like other ballgame. Like you

1:09:03

I take it you probably had to learn about

1:09:05

like aerospace medicine at that point. Yeah,

1:09:08

I trained with Annelie Fisher, the first

1:09:11

mother in space. She works

1:09:13

with us mostly. And

1:09:15

I became friends with Jim Bay. They're

1:09:17

all their medical doctors and astronauts. And

1:09:20

then Ray Acedon. And I bumped into Ray

1:09:22

Acedon quite a few times. Anna Fisher, I bumped

1:09:24

into her a couple of times. And

1:09:27

then STS-3, Jack

1:09:31

Lausma, he was an STS-3. I

1:09:35

bumped into him a few times. And we sit and

1:09:37

talk and stuff. They go

1:09:39

to I go to the space fest because they have they

1:09:41

have a section for meteorites there. So I

1:09:43

go there for that. And some of the astronauts are

1:09:46

there signing autographs and stuff. So I'll go in and

1:09:48

meet him and talk to him and stuff. And

1:09:51

Anna remembers me. Ray

1:09:54

didn't remember but she was always asleep anyway in

1:09:56

class. And she's married to a guy

1:09:59

named Hoop Gibson. another astronaut and

1:10:02

he goes, yeah, she still falls asleep all the time. But

1:10:06

she, she's, she's really, she's adorable.

1:10:08

She's really a nice looking

1:10:10

lady. Really nice. Um, Anna

1:10:13

Fisher, she remembers me because I was

1:10:16

sitting there taking a picture and she

1:10:18

was yelling at me, put down

1:10:20

the camera, get over here and learn something. Will

1:10:22

ya? I've got, okay. Okay. I'm taking pictures. Now

1:10:24

she's glad I took the pictures because now I

1:10:27

gave her a copy of it. Yeah. Right. So

1:10:29

in addition to the mountain rescue, um, because

1:10:31

I know that the, uh, the para

1:10:33

rescue units, the guard units in

1:10:36

California and Alaska are extremely active with like

1:10:38

the mountain rescues and things like that. But

1:10:40

you guys also do a lot of the

1:10:42

ocean rescues. So if there's a fishing

1:10:44

trawler or something out there,

1:10:46

high seas, somebody, their appendix

1:10:49

first, you guys are the ones they

1:10:51

call. And how do

1:10:53

rescues like that go down? Well,

1:10:56

if it's over 300 miles or over 150 miles or something like that, um, if

1:10:59

it's what, if it's close to shore, the coast guard will do

1:11:01

it, but they're not refuelable. So they, they,

1:11:04

they're limited on how far they can go cause they

1:11:06

have to have returned fuel and, and a reserve by

1:11:08

the time they land. So that, um,

1:11:10

so they would, what they do is they take,

1:11:13

um, two C 130s and

1:11:15

a helicopter and we

1:11:18

get into C 130. We fly out, out to the

1:11:20

ocean where the ship might be 1100 miles

1:11:22

out of sea. And then we load up

1:11:24

and on the way out, we're talking to, um, back

1:11:27

then it was Scott air force base and you're

1:11:29

talking to the, the doctors that are in charge over there

1:11:31

and they're telling you what you can do and what not

1:11:33

to do, what medications you can give them

1:11:35

and don't give them medications that depending on what's going

1:11:37

on with them. And, um,

1:11:40

so then we go out and we parachute in and

1:11:43

the C 130 to the other C 130 is refueling

1:11:46

the helicopter all the way out. And

1:11:48

if you see the helicopters, that big snorkel in

1:11:50

the front, that's refueling. Those are usually PJs. So

1:11:53

they're refueling them all the way out. And then we'll

1:11:55

get the guy ready cause we're out there way ahead

1:11:57

of time. We'll can put them in a stope. Well,

1:12:00

the chopper will come out and drop a

1:12:02

soap slitter. And then we're getting the guy

1:12:04

already. We've already got him up on the deck. And

1:12:06

we're going to put him in a sleeping bag, seal him

1:12:08

up, put your muffs on him, goggles

1:12:11

on him, and strap him in. And then

1:12:13

we got a rope tied onto the

1:12:15

soap slitter so it doesn't spin. And then they'll

1:12:17

bring it up and get him into the helicopter.

1:12:19

They take the litter off and they put a

1:12:21

penetrator on it. It's a thing that comes out

1:12:23

with little seats. And then we get

1:12:25

on. My buddy and I will get on it. And then

1:12:28

we'll go back up and get in the helicopter. And

1:12:31

then we'll refuel. Like, I'm one that we went out

1:12:33

1,100 miles. I had a ruptured appendix. And

1:12:37

what we did is we low leveled 100

1:12:40

feet off the water and refueled all the way to Coos

1:12:42

Bay, Oregon. That was the closest point.

1:12:45

And we got there at night. And then all the

1:12:47

crews were there, the camera crews. I got to get

1:12:49

a copy of the news film. But they

1:12:51

took pictures of us coming off. I'd

1:12:53

love to get it for my kids. And

1:12:56

so from there, we just get

1:12:58

rid of the guy. And then we mosey

1:13:00

on down to the base down in California.

1:13:02

So Jim, I

1:13:05

know that this was your job. So it was

1:13:07

just like normal half to you. But

1:13:09

I feel like there's a point between where

1:13:12

you're on a C-130 and an airplane. There

1:13:16

is a boat or a ship in

1:13:19

potentially high seas, right?

1:13:21

Storm conditions, whatever. How

1:13:24

do you manage to get from a C-130? Because

1:13:27

it's not going to hover over

1:13:29

this rocking ship, right? How

1:13:32

do you manage to get from the C-130 onto that ship?

1:13:36

Oh, we just jump out. What

1:13:40

you do, they usually give us the

1:13:43

old parachutes. Because

1:13:45

if you blow a panel on the old chute, it

1:13:47

doesn't matter. You're hitting water. But

1:13:50

what we do is we've got medical gear on us. We've

1:13:54

got a raft on us. We've got a

1:13:57

bunch of stuff. We've got double scuba

1:13:59

tanks on. on, the

1:14:01

parachute, the reserve shoot, a

1:14:03

knife, and other stuff in case you run. But you're

1:14:06

not going to run the sharks out there. So

1:14:09

on that mission, we flew out. It

1:14:12

was John Stevens

1:14:15

and I. And John Stevens, he

1:14:17

was a PGA a lot longer than I was. And

1:14:20

he had time in Vietnam, I think he did. Anyway,

1:14:22

so he was a team leader on that

1:14:24

one. So we go ahead and we jump

1:14:26

out. What we do

1:14:29

is we drop up. We go over the ship where we want

1:14:31

to land. We don't land on the ship. We land

1:14:33

in the water. Because you don't want to

1:14:35

get tangled up on the ship. So what you do

1:14:37

is we find a place in water where we want

1:14:39

to go. So we go over it and we drop

1:14:41

streamers down and watch where the streamers go. And

1:14:44

then you count backwards. So if

1:14:46

you want to land here and the streamer lands over

1:14:48

here, well, you jump out over here, so you land

1:14:50

here. So we

1:14:53

go ahead and we jump out. And then they'll

1:14:55

push bundles out with all the other

1:14:57

medical gear that we could use. And

1:15:01

then the ship puts a dinghy in the

1:15:03

water. And so they'll

1:15:06

come over and they'll pick you up. And on

1:15:08

that mission, we had 32 foot seas. And

1:15:11

it was, we had to get there to get

1:15:13

the guy because he was going to die. We

1:15:15

had to get him out of there and get

1:15:17

him to a hospital. He was 21 year old

1:15:20

Taiwanese. They're working on those ships that bring

1:15:22

the Honda cars over. And

1:15:26

so I'm coming down in the

1:15:29

parachute. I'm not in the water yet. And I'm looking

1:15:31

at the top of the waves and I'm going, oh,

1:15:33

this isn't going to be good. Yeah. So,

1:15:36

and on the way out, we're eating donuts, which

1:15:38

you don't want to do. So we get in the water

1:15:40

and I'm waiting. I

1:15:44

wait for a top of a crest of waves so I can

1:15:47

see the dinghy where it is. And this is

1:15:49

why PJ's got to be strong because you got to swim

1:15:51

below this gear on. So you cut the

1:15:53

canopy loose and just let it sink, get rid of it.

1:15:56

And then you're swimming with your harness with all your

1:15:58

gear. And so you swim on over. And

1:16:00

the dinghy, when I got to the dinghy, I grabbed

1:16:02

the side as it was coming up. And when the

1:16:04

boat came all the way up, I

1:16:06

could see all the way underneath it. It just came up

1:16:08

and pressed the wave like that. I could see all the

1:16:11

way under it. And when it went down, it went down

1:16:13

like this and I just rolled

1:16:15

right into it. They

1:16:17

couldn't get the dinghy. Yeah, they couldn't even

1:16:20

get the dinghy running. The motors conked out

1:16:22

on it. And these guys are merchant Marines

1:16:24

and it's really windy and nasty out. And

1:16:27

everybody's getting sick and blowing

1:16:29

all over everybody. And

1:16:32

it's just frigging miserable. So they finally

1:16:34

get the swell of the boat washed

1:16:36

you onto the, or I'm sorry, the swell of the

1:16:38

waves washed you onto the deck of the ship.

1:16:41

I just rolled. No, no, no, no. On the dinghy. Oh,

1:16:44

onto the dinghy. Okay. I got it on the

1:16:46

dinghy. Yeah. So, um, so we got, I got

1:16:48

in the dinghy and then everything, everything. They finally

1:16:50

got the thing going. So when you

1:16:52

go over to the ship, they have a

1:16:55

door on the side of the ship and they drop a rope ladder

1:16:57

out of it. So what,

1:16:59

what I, what you have to do is you got to wait

1:17:01

for the highest wave on that going,

1:17:03

because it goes up the side of the ship. You want

1:17:05

the highest wave. And then you grab that ladder

1:17:07

and you start climbing up and that thing is

1:17:09

going to just disappear at 30, 32

1:17:12

feet below you. You guys are so crazy. Yeah.

1:17:15

So then you climb in, I'm climbing in

1:17:17

and I'm just puking my guts out from

1:17:19

meeting all those donuts and that nasty weather

1:17:21

stuff. And so these, I can

1:17:23

just see those guys just sitting there going, these came

1:17:26

to help us. Yeah. Yeah.

1:17:28

So, and then John Stevens, he gets on,

1:17:31

he comes up, he waits for a big

1:17:33

wave. He gets on times with the ladder.

1:17:35

A bigger wave came along. The boat comes

1:17:37

up, knocks him off the ladder and he

1:17:39

falls into the dinghy. Why? Oh

1:17:42

my gosh. Yeah. So he finally got

1:17:44

enough there, a big enough wave and he climbed in,

1:17:46

got in there and we took care of

1:17:48

the guy and then the choppers finally got there and

1:17:50

we took them up in the deck and, you know,

1:17:52

got him in the chopper and we flew to Coos Bay

1:17:54

organ. He was so blown up and you have to

1:17:56

go at low altitude because he's blown up

1:17:59

from the gasses. building up from the ruptured appendix.

1:18:01

You can't get altitude because gas

1:18:03

expands with altitude. And that's

1:18:06

why we had to refuel at 100 feet off the water. But

1:18:09

he made it. He was a strong kid and he

1:18:11

made it. But he wanted me to cut his gut because

1:18:14

it was so distended. I got my shirt

1:18:16

and I was cutting off his underwear and

1:18:18

he's sitting there trying to hold everything up and he's telling

1:18:20

me to cut his gut. And

1:18:22

there was no way I can do like a

1:18:24

Thoris Antisis or anything because I couldn't, I

1:18:27

didn't want to puncture his bow. Right, right.

1:18:29

Going and trying to get the air out. I didn't want to

1:18:31

take a chance on it. So yeah, but

1:18:33

he made it. He lived and you know, and then

1:18:36

I had another mission after that. And the other one

1:18:38

was, I had a bunch of

1:18:40

hoist missions, but that one, I had another one

1:18:42

was a jump mission. And we

1:18:44

flew out, it was about a thousand miles out. We

1:18:47

jumped in and the guy had a

1:18:49

bowel obstruction, an inguinal hernia and a bowel

1:18:51

obstruction. And that was a pretty nice,

1:18:53

that was a nice mission. The water

1:18:56

was pretty calm out in the middle of the ocean. We jumped

1:18:58

in and it was

1:19:00

a sugar island that brings the CNA sugar over from Hawaii.

1:19:02

So I became good

1:19:05

friends with the skipper of the ship. Bill

1:19:08

McCullough was his name. And

1:19:11

so we went ahead and got on that

1:19:13

boat and we stayed on the

1:19:15

ship. We just jumped in and

1:19:17

the helicopter just stayed back in California. But

1:19:20

we went because the skipper told us it was

1:19:22

nice comp seas and we just

1:19:24

stabilized the guy, got him set up for

1:19:26

surgery. And we just stayed on the ship

1:19:28

for a day and a half and took care of him until

1:19:30

we got to Hawaii. And then they took him off and took

1:19:32

him in. Got a nice letter from the doctor that did the

1:19:34

surgery and everything that we prepped really

1:19:36

well. Wow. I had another mission.

1:19:39

I was a jump mission and it got canceled when

1:19:41

we were out there, but it

1:19:44

was a drug dealership. And they

1:19:46

blew a plug on their own ship. They were sinking

1:19:49

the ship. And then all these bales came out into

1:19:51

the water. Big giant

1:19:53

bales. And all these boats came in

1:19:55

and they're loading all these bales. And

1:19:57

they had DEA and these other. police

1:20:01

Organizations out there both Mexican and American going

1:20:03

out there trying to get these guys But

1:20:05

they only got like three of the ships

1:20:07

the boats. Yeah, they got close It was

1:20:10

like I don't know 13 boats that came

1:20:12

out and About 15

1:20:14

or 16 bales in the water when we were gonna

1:20:16

jump in because one of the guys got burnt when

1:20:18

they were they blew A charge the sink to ship

1:20:21

and they found that there was a drug dealer and

1:20:23

they said no don't jump So I

1:20:25

want to jump. Yeah, I'm not worried.

1:20:27

Yeah, I'm not jumping Yeah Yes,

1:20:30

take their gun away and slap them

1:20:32

around but so anyway on

1:20:34

that boat I talked to pilots to stay there

1:20:37

Hey, let's stay here and watch the ship sink and we stayed

1:20:39

there and got to watch this big old ship sink It

1:20:41

was really cool That's

1:20:44

why that was it that was that was my jump

1:20:46

missions the other were a hoist missions You

1:20:50

know like we had one where the guy

1:20:52

was an older merchant marine and it was

1:20:54

all young Marines and merchant Marines And he

1:20:56

didn't fit in so he was taking medication

1:20:58

and drinking alcohol and he fell in

1:21:00

his head Undilated pupils,

1:21:02

you know bigger than the other and

1:21:05

we went and we just hoisted him up got down

1:21:07

in the boat Got him out of there

1:21:09

took him to Chrissy

1:21:11

Field in San Francisco flew under

1:21:13

the Golden Gate, which is really cool and And

1:21:17

that was it then the others were just regular hoist mission. You

1:21:19

just bring the guys up get him out take him to safety

1:21:22

No, so but it was but I

1:21:24

loved being a PJ. It's a great job. Yeah, like

1:21:26

a job in the Mount St. Helens When

1:21:29

we went up there We were believing the guys

1:21:31

up in Oregon because they were working

1:21:33

around the clock and they needed a break so guys

1:21:35

from New York came out and then we went up

1:21:38

and we relieved those guys and That

1:21:40

was that was that was horrendous.

1:21:42

You know when you see those trees that are

1:21:45

laying down the ground They're only

1:21:47

about 50 feet where they were standing All

1:21:50

that bear area you see all those

1:21:52

trees were disintegrated. Yeah, it's just Disintegrated

1:21:54

and if you look at the trees

1:21:56

laying on the ground, they look like

1:21:58

telephone poles, you know The branches are

1:22:00

gone, the tops of trees are gone, because

1:22:02

they're disintegrated, but the pressure wasn't as strong,

1:22:04

so it didn't destroy the whole tree. There

1:22:07

was like a distance there where it stopped.

1:22:09

And I remember flying over and

1:22:12

looking down and seeing all these elk and stuff

1:22:14

in the river and deer in the river, washing

1:22:16

down with the mud and stuff. And

1:22:19

it looked like the surface of the

1:22:21

moon. It was really pretty devastating when you look

1:22:23

at it, how massive it

1:22:25

was. Now, we're talking about

1:22:27

sort of the time between

1:22:30

Vietnam and the global war on

1:22:32

terror, but Para Rescue did also

1:22:34

have, they do have a combat

1:22:36

mission, even

1:22:39

if that wasn't necessarily the focus

1:22:41

because that wasn't going on. You

1:22:46

mentioned earlier that they wanted sort of combat training from

1:22:48

you. You had been Green

1:22:50

Beret, Mac Vy Sog, and Vietnam.

1:22:52

Like how did that play in

1:22:54

with your time with Para Rescue?

1:22:58

I taught them things like, I

1:23:02

set up shooting ranges, like

1:23:05

a pathway. You

1:23:07

walk through and there'd be like guys, and

1:23:09

one of the things that a lot of people don't do is they

1:23:11

don't look down by their feet. So I had

1:23:13

the enemy like just, because they're always looking

1:23:16

out around them like this, they don't look down

1:23:18

by their feet. And a guy could

1:23:20

be in a little hole right there and

1:23:23

take you out. So I did a lot of that

1:23:25

kind of stuff, I

1:23:27

told me, unless you can really take the

1:23:29

guy out, there's only a few guys you can take the guy out.

1:23:32

But if there's a bunch of guys

1:23:34

or something like that, you can shoot down in front of

1:23:36

them and the rocks will come up. Because

1:23:39

if you shoot the guy and you kill the guy, well,

1:23:42

they're just gonna leave him there and keep hitting you. But

1:23:44

if you will the guy, it's gonna take

1:23:47

one or two other guys and take him out, get

1:23:49

him out to where he can be saved. So

1:23:52

those kinds of tactics is what I trained him.

1:23:54

And I taught him the INA

1:23:57

drills, immediate action, that kind

1:23:59

of stuff. never worked by the

1:24:01

way. The one guy shoots and he runs

1:24:04

through the middle and the other guy shoots and they

1:24:06

never, you turn around and you run into a tree

1:24:08

or a rock or something and they never work. But

1:24:10

it gives you a starting point. Yeah

1:24:15

that's interesting. And then did

1:24:17

you see, I don't

1:24:21

know when you left ParaRescue and I

1:24:23

don't know like when the 24th formed

1:24:25

but like did they, you know as,

1:24:29

did you maintain your connection to the ParaRescue community

1:24:31

as they started moving to the global war on

1:24:33

terror and they started taking on a more tactical

1:24:35

focus? No,

1:24:37

that happened after I left. I got busted

1:24:39

up parachuting and I

1:24:41

had an injury over in Vietnam. I got thrown, I

1:24:43

got thrown out of a helicopter about 25 feet or

1:24:45

30 feet and I

1:24:47

fractured my back and I sprung

1:24:50

my pelvis open, my SI joint and

1:24:52

I didn't know it. I knew I got hurt.

1:24:55

I couldn't talk for a couple of

1:24:57

weeks. I mean like that you know,

1:24:59

I tried to talk. So when

1:25:01

I got injured parachuting, the

1:25:04

doc comes out and he goes, have you ever injured yourself

1:25:06

before? And I go no. And I said

1:25:08

why? Well you got a bunch of fractures. You got

1:25:10

a fractured T7L5 and you sprung your pelvis on and

1:25:13

I had a big spur in my SI joint. And

1:25:15

I go, oh, I said I

1:25:18

got thrown out of a helicopter in Vietnam. He goes, yeah,

1:25:20

that'll do it. He said I'm taking you off jump status.

1:25:22

Well I go no, don't take me off jump status. You

1:25:24

know, that's my life. You know, I was in

1:25:27

82. So in 84 they discharged me and gave me

1:25:34

a medical. I chose the medical instead of

1:25:36

being a desk jockey. And I had 20

1:25:38

years in so I did that but I'd

1:25:40

still be in ParaRescue if they'd let me. And

1:25:43

I still jumped by the way. So

1:25:48

yeah, that's, yeah,

1:25:50

no, I loved

1:25:52

ParaRescue. Man, it was great. And I still keep in touch

1:25:55

with them. You know, they have their reunion every other year

1:25:57

and they have a mini reunion and

1:25:59

the year's in between. And the

1:26:01

mini reunion this year is gonna be in Helen,

1:26:03

Georgia So I'm gonna run out there and my I'll

1:26:05

stay with my brother. He lives in chickopea. It's

1:26:07

only 45 minutes away Yeah, so yeah,

1:26:09

so my I'll take my brother up and he can

1:26:11

meet the other PJs But

1:26:14

the if you want to see something really cool

1:26:16

go to a pair of rescue reunion. They're amazing

1:26:19

Yeah, that you'd be shocked with they

1:26:21

take that they take from all the

1:26:24

teams around the world What they

1:26:26

do is they take one team from each group and

1:26:28

they take the best guys and then

1:26:31

those guys They compete against

1:26:33

each other as a reunion and

1:26:35

you'd be shocked what they get the

1:26:37

winners and stuff Yeah, I mean rifles

1:26:39

guns ATVs all

1:26:41

kinds of camping equipment all

1:26:44

kinds of stuff. I mean, it's just

1:26:46

friggin amazing Yeah, and I'm trying to get

1:26:48

the SOA, you know special operations associated to

1:26:50

do the same thing Yeah, there's a really

1:26:52

interesting history too as far as like a

1:26:54

crossover between both para

1:26:57

rescue and smoke jumpers with the CIA's

1:26:59

paramilitary guys during the Vietnam

1:27:02

conflict Yeah,

1:27:08

I guess to rescue I didn't know anything

1:27:10

about her I knew the job is a

1:27:12

super jolly over there Yeah When

1:27:15

we when we got her in

1:27:17

trouble, they would come and get us but I

1:27:19

still didn't know what PJs were I'd know anything

1:27:21

about them When I

1:27:23

was in SOG CIA, I mean They

1:27:27

that the CIA was getting themselves killed. That's why

1:27:29

they brought SOG in Because

1:27:32

I mean I see some of these CIA guys

1:27:34

and they dressed up like Cowboys I mean they

1:27:37

were a cowboy hat they're going out there, you

1:27:39

know with this little Australian hat on and I

1:27:42

mean, it's like they didn't have the

1:27:44

training that they needed they were getting themselves

1:27:46

hurt Which is really kind

1:27:48

of sad. I think there are a lot

1:27:51

different now, you know, the guys over in the sandbox and stuff

1:27:53

I think they're a lot different now because

1:27:55

a lot of guys in CIA now are guys

1:27:57

from you know Delta and KAG and all this,

1:27:59

you know You know, I don't know

1:28:01

how many PJs go into it. But yeah, you

1:28:03

know, it's a lot different now than it was back

1:28:05

in Vietnam So after you were medically discharged, I mean

1:28:07

what what I mean, you didn't slow down at all.

1:28:09

You just kept going Yeah,

1:28:13

I I went to school become a chiropractor and I

1:28:17

had a hard time bending over because of my injuries in

1:28:19

my back and everything You

1:28:21

know treat people so I went and

1:28:24

did a residency in radiology and

1:28:26

I was 4.0 in radiology I

1:28:29

I in pathology the same way and

1:28:32

so I went to st. Louis and I

1:28:34

did my residency out there And

1:28:36

so when I finished my residency, I came back

1:28:38

I came to Tucson Arizona

1:28:40

and What I did is I

1:28:42

said a bunch of letters to

1:28:45

all the docks in Tucson and all the

1:28:47

docks in Wisconsin

1:28:49

Madison, Wisconsin area and and

1:28:53

Tucson won out they said we need you

1:28:55

here because they only they didn't have any

1:28:57

they had one radiologist here for for chiropractors

1:28:59

and so he

1:29:02

was up in Phoenix Gary Long there and

1:29:04

so I came to Tucson and I was reading

1:29:06

for over a hundred docks and Chiropractor

1:29:10

for some reason think they can read their own films,

1:29:12

which is really kind of tragic But

1:29:15

I Ended up

1:29:18

working for a medical group. So

1:29:20

I went I went to work for Southwest

1:29:22

radiology here in Tucson and Well

1:29:25

up in Tucson and I opened

1:29:27

up my own practice Eventually,

1:29:30

I wanted to put an MRI in town and

1:29:32

my own radiology suite

1:29:35

So what I did is I kept pushing Companies

1:29:38

to finance me there gets a multi-million

1:29:40

dollar deal. Oh, yeah, and

1:29:43

Yeah, so I went to I got

1:29:46

in touch with a group called modern medical

1:29:48

modalities out of New York and They

1:29:51

came out and talked with me and

1:29:53

they said we watched it come out to

1:29:55

New York So I went to New York on they

1:29:57

had a big Christmas party huge party at the Plaza

1:30:00

a hotel and so I

1:30:02

went there and they linked me up

1:30:04

with a millionaire guy and I sat

1:30:06

down and talked to him and he goes how many

1:30:08

can you do and I said I

1:30:11

said I guarantee you a hundred patients a

1:30:13

month and he said if

1:30:15

you can guarantee me a hundred patients a month

1:30:17

you do the write-up do all the paperwork on

1:30:20

it you know let me know what show me

1:30:22

give me a you know a recall

1:30:24

just a proposal give me a folder

1:30:26

with yeah folder with all this information

1:30:28

so I put everything together and he

1:30:30

goes okay let's go so I did

1:30:32

I found a location and

1:30:35

we went ahead and put the MRI in there put

1:30:37

a CAT scan in there, VEXA

1:30:40

scan which I think is worthless, general

1:30:44

x-ray that kind of stuff everything

1:30:47

about mammography even mammography is the pain in the

1:30:49

neck so went ahead and just

1:30:51

put all that together and

1:30:53

I got a

1:30:55

pay I got like five thousand a month so I was

1:30:58

supposed to get a percentage and

1:31:00

he never I never got my percentage so I told

1:31:02

him I said look here's because he was the

1:31:04

money end of it and he

1:31:07

started changing everything I would

1:31:09

give everybody a rose that came every

1:31:11

patient a rose and I had

1:31:13

attorneys and doctors call me up saying you

1:31:15

know that's a real nice touch you

1:31:18

know but he said that's a waste of money I

1:31:20

mean we might end up with one or two roses left

1:31:22

over a day that's one or two dollars a day and

1:31:25

that bothered him so we stopped

1:31:27

that and so then we

1:31:30

had a girl running around who would

1:31:32

she would she would go and

1:31:34

talk all these docs and say you know hey

1:31:36

we've got this is what we offer you know

1:31:38

and what have you and try to bring patients

1:31:40

in well he stopped that too so

1:31:43

what he didn't pay me my my percentage I

1:31:45

finally just said look here's the deal I want to check for

1:31:47

25,000 right now and

1:31:49

I said or I'm gonna take it to court so

1:31:51

he wrote wrote me a check

1:31:53

for 25,000 I left and opened up another business

1:31:56

and so when I did that He

1:32:00

went down the tubes. The place is, I think it's gone

1:32:02

now. I mean, it just went right down the tubes. So

1:32:06

when I opened up my other place, another guy comes

1:32:08

walking into my office, and he goes, hey,

1:32:11

we want you to read our x-rays. And

1:32:13

I go, I says, how much

1:32:15

are you going to pay me? And he goes, we can give

1:32:17

you $5 a case. I said,

1:32:19

what's the other doc getting paid? Because this

1:32:22

doctor is getting swamped with cases.

1:32:25

So he wanted somebody to read the cases for him. And

1:32:28

he says, it was getting $15 a case. I

1:32:30

said, tell him I'll split it with him, $750 a case. And

1:32:34

he came back, and he goes, yeah, it's a deal. So

1:32:36

I said, great. So I

1:32:39

didn't do less than 150 cases, 160 cases a day. I

1:32:43

actually had 200 cases a day at $750 a

1:32:45

case. I

1:32:48

was making good money. You were

1:32:50

busy, though. Oh, I was

1:32:52

working 24-7. Yeah, yeah. I would

1:32:54

go to bed, and I'd get a phone call if

1:32:56

they were sending you 60 cases. I

1:32:59

did teleradiology. I had six computers.

1:33:01

I was reading x-rays from Kentucky,

1:33:03

Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, and

1:33:05

Tucson. And it

1:33:08

was a friggin' nightmare. One day, I did 276 cases, and

1:33:10

I just said, I'm done. So

1:33:18

I quit, and I retired. Yeah,

1:33:20

wow. I still read.

1:33:22

In fact, I just picked up a book on the

1:33:25

wrist, Emorrhizal of the Risks, and Hand, and

1:33:27

stuff. And I'm reading that book right now.

1:33:30

I mean, all these books that you see,

1:33:32

right, where are they? Let me see. Right

1:33:35

there? All those books right

1:33:37

there are all radiology books. Wow.

1:33:39

Those are all radiology books. But I mean,

1:33:42

when you say retirement, you kind of have

1:33:45

to put that in air quotes, because you're

1:33:47

still flying. You still have

1:33:50

your hand in medicine a bit. And

1:33:53

we're talking about collecting media rights. And

1:33:55

then you've also had your experiences with

1:33:57

DPIA. Yeah,

1:34:00

I went back to that crash site

1:34:02

in Cambodia with DPA in

1:34:04

2017. They called me up and said,

1:34:06

we're going into that crash site. Would you like to go? I

1:34:08

go, yeah, most definitely. So I was

1:34:10

supposed to go there for two weeks. They were going to

1:34:12

be there for six weeks. So I

1:34:15

went there for the two weeks and when

1:34:17

I said goodbye to everybody and I was

1:34:19

leaving, um, the, the Colonel said, we'd like that

1:34:21

guy to stay here. So the Colonel says, would

1:34:23

you like to stay here? I go, yeah. So I

1:34:25

went back out and I stayed there for six weeks

1:34:27

with them, you know, sifting through

1:34:29

and digging and everything and looking for

1:34:31

teeth or anything from the, you know,

1:34:34

pieces of old bone. And

1:34:36

plus, you know, um, I, you

1:34:38

know, my degree was in anthropology

1:34:40

and minor in archeology, uh, when

1:34:42

I went into chiropractic college. So,

1:34:44

and I've got a, a big

1:34:47

interest in, uh, forensic anthropology. So

1:34:49

I, I was, I was, I was, I could pick

1:34:51

out a bone when I see it, you know, versus

1:34:53

like, cause they're going to be brown. They're going to

1:34:56

look like a piece of wood, you know, they're kind

1:34:58

of like, you know, so, but I was good at

1:35:00

that. And the, uh, for us, um, forensic anthropology that

1:35:02

they had was an MD and her and

1:35:04

I got along really good. She was, she was a great gal and

1:35:07

we sit there and talk and back and

1:35:09

forth and we can talk medicine back and

1:35:11

forth to pathology and stuff. So that was

1:35:13

really kind of good. So I stayed there for the whole six

1:35:15

weeks and helped them. And I still keep in touch with the

1:35:17

guys back that I just contacted the guy just the other day

1:35:20

that, uh, just made a Sergeant

1:35:22

major. That's awesome. Out

1:35:24

of curiosity, you know, cause you mentioned she

1:35:26

was a DPA or an MD and, and you

1:35:28

know, and you have this ability, you know, you're

1:35:31

used to seeing bones, seeing, you know,

1:35:33

reading radiology, you know, reading stuff.

1:35:36

Um, that's got to really play

1:35:38

an important part in archeology, right? Where not

1:35:40

just archeology, but in what you're doing here

1:35:42

in determining like, not

1:35:45

just at the crash site, but in turning, like

1:35:47

what actually happened to this person, like

1:35:49

what was the trauma and things like that, right?

1:35:52

Well, if you found a bone that would, um, that

1:35:54

had a bullet hole in it or something, you know,

1:35:56

that they probably killed them right there at the site.

1:35:59

Um, I think that. Allen Trent was

1:36:01

actually killed right there in the crash.

1:36:03

Yeah, and I think that Eric Hubert.

1:36:05

There's a possibility Because

1:36:08

there's rumors that he might have been taken prisoner

1:36:10

and died shortly after my guess He probably died

1:36:12

before he even got to the prison camp Yeah

1:36:16

You know one of the things is when I

1:36:18

went back in 2017. I was talking to stony

1:36:20

beach there I'm still in touch with the guys

1:36:22

and They went down

1:36:24

to the Vietnamese where they're looking for their people

1:36:27

and they were killed in that battle and

1:36:30

I told him I said let

1:36:32

me draw you a map so I drew a map I

1:36:34

said take it to the guy down tell him this is where

1:36:36

they look and they looked at the map and

1:36:38

they go Where'd you get this map and he goes?

1:36:41

Well the guy that you guys were trying to kill us up there

1:36:43

on the hill looking For the two planets They

1:36:48

said well we went into that area he says

1:36:50

so far we found 127 remains We're

1:36:54

still missing over a hundred. Yeah And

1:36:57

How many died after that battle? We don't know

1:36:59

they'll died in the hospitals and stuff and

1:37:02

and the place didn't it turned out to

1:37:04

be a hospital The

1:37:06

way the whooshes were and everything turned out

1:37:08

to be a hospital from people getting

1:37:10

injured on the Ho Chi Minh trail. I Just

1:37:13

wish they would have left let us go I don't know why

1:37:15

they don't just let you go in there and just get the

1:37:17

there, you know, get the bodies out and leave you know, yeah,

1:37:19

I lose

1:37:21

all those people over Do you

1:37:24

dead Americans or something? You know, yeah to me to the

1:37:26

extent that Jim, but you know, do

1:37:28

you have any? Opinions

1:37:30

or speculation about like

1:37:33

the 1500 plus Americans left,

1:37:35

you know that were mia

1:37:37

or p.o.w is do you

1:37:40

have And

1:37:42

I don't want to put you on the spot if you don't

1:37:44

but if you have any opinions or speculations about some of that

1:37:47

It'd be interesting to hear. Oh, there we go Um,

1:37:51

I think a lot of the people I think a lot

1:37:53

of them died in prison camp I

1:37:56

think a lot of them died on their way to the prison camp,

1:37:58

you know, especially guys who are wounded If

1:38:00

they bled out there and gonna carry the body, they're probably just

1:38:02

gonna leave it on the side of the trail But

1:38:06

I believe that when they did that was

1:38:09

that operation Welcome

1:38:11

home or yeah. Yeah home or whatever Yeah,

1:38:17

when they brought all those prisoners back

1:38:19

to the states well there

1:38:21

was POW camps in South Vietnam There

1:38:24

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1:38:26

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details They didn't have

1:40:00

communications going back and forth. So

1:40:02

it might have taken a week or so to

1:40:05

get them. So when they brought all those people

1:40:07

and brought all those POWs back, there

1:40:09

was probably a lot of people left in those prison camps.

1:40:12

And who knows what happened to them? You

1:40:15

know, because the enemy said that, you know, the

1:40:17

NBA said that we gave you everybody we had.

1:40:20

You know, and if somebody popped up, they're

1:40:22

not going to lose face. They're probably just going to take

1:40:24

them out right there. Right. So,

1:40:27

and which is really tragic. So I

1:40:29

really believe that there was quite a few

1:40:32

left behind the prison camps in

1:40:34

the other countries and

1:40:36

they just killed them, which

1:40:38

is sad. I hate

1:40:40

to say that because, you know, because people might be listening.

1:40:43

Yeah. But, but

1:40:46

yeah, I mean, it's it's

1:40:48

pretty tragic. Yeah. And

1:40:52

the sad thing is that at the end that

1:40:54

the Easter offensive, I guess, was the last big

1:40:56

push they were doing coming across the DMZ to

1:40:58

go into South Vietnam. And that

1:41:00

was going to be their last big push. They were going to the

1:41:02

enemy was going to give up. They

1:41:04

were going to end the war and we would have won. And

1:41:07

then the US, you know, listening to

1:41:09

all the hippies and everything and trying

1:41:12

to keep their votes so they can stay in office and

1:41:15

they threw the towel in. But,

1:41:17

you know, that's really tragic.

1:41:19

And they're still doing it. You know,

1:41:21

look at look at Biden just did

1:41:24

over and in the

1:41:26

sandbox there, 13 guys killed

1:41:28

right off the bat, leaving over 100

1:41:30

Americans there. It's just tragic. Yeah. Our

1:41:32

country's gone down the tubes. So

1:41:37

yeah. You see, what else can we talk about? Well,

1:41:41

a bit more about, you know, your quote unquote

1:41:43

retirement. So you still fly

1:41:45

around and you still collect media rights. What's

1:41:48

that about? What

1:41:50

I do is I find that locations, you know, I

1:41:52

like they call it cold hunting. When you just go

1:41:54

out in the desert and just look, you

1:41:57

can find a new stream field. That'd be pretty good.

1:41:59

Some media rights. worth a lot of money. In

1:42:02

general, most of the old meteorites you find

1:42:04

are roughly like anywhere from one

1:42:06

to ten dollars a gram. And

1:42:09

a gram is about the size of a pea,

1:42:11

a little green pea. And

1:42:14

so if you can find

1:42:16

one that's, they have different types of categories. You

1:42:19

got iron meteorites, but iron meteorites are usually

1:42:21

five percent that comes from the atmosphere

1:42:23

or iron. And they usually come down

1:42:25

in large quantity. You know, if you look at

1:42:27

the sick coat of land that came out of Russia, there's

1:42:29

one called Campo

1:42:32

de Chiello out of Argentina. There's a

1:42:34

huge, the one that hit meteor creators,

1:42:36

a big iron meteorite, it's called Canyon

1:42:38

Diablo. But

1:42:41

those are those usually come down to

1:42:43

big, huge masses. But

1:42:46

the stone ones that come down, like

1:42:48

the one that went in the Russia a few years ago, that was

1:42:50

called I

1:42:53

can't think right off the head, top of my head. But

1:42:57

when those come down, you know, like, well,

1:42:59

let's say the one that came down in

1:43:01

Sudan, it was called

1:43:03

Al Mahatasida, which is Arabic

1:43:06

for Station Six. That

1:43:09

one, when it came down, it was about the size a

1:43:11

little bit bigger than a Volkswagen. And

1:43:13

when it hit the atmosphere, when it by the time it hit

1:43:15

on the ground, it was about this, if you put it all

1:43:17

together, it'd be about the size of a grapefruit. Wow.

1:43:21

It burns up coming through the atmosphere quite a

1:43:23

bit. Right. And when you see a meteor coming,