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The Telegraph Podcasts

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Hello

0:15

everybody, welcome back to the Telegraph Review Podcast.

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What a weekend in Paris. We had a sort of a warm

0:20

up dish on Friday night

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with Argentina, not quite meeting New

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Zealand standard and suffering a heavy loss.

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And then what an astonishing game

0:29

on Saturday night in the rain in Paris. It

0:31

was really quite something to

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behold. I'm Ben Coles and I'm joined as ever

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by Charlie Morgan. Hi, Charlie.

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Colesy. And also

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by Charles Richardson. Hi, Charles. Good

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morning, everybody. For

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the first time in the tournament, we were all

0:48

three of us were in the same city and

0:50

we got to watch the same games. I mean, I

0:53

think the less said about New Zealand, Argentina, the

0:55

better, but we'll obviously have to recap it. But

0:59

in terms of Saturday night, Charlie, if I come to you first,

1:01

how have you sort of reflected on England's

1:04

performance in that game?

1:06

I think similarly to how we were all feeling

1:08

at the time that it felt like such an assured,

1:13

intelligent, tough, super

1:16

tough performance for 65

1:19

minutes, didn't it? And I think

1:21

at the time as well, in the moment you were thinking

1:23

15-6, that's a really, really

1:26

good lead.

1:27

But you want to be sort of

1:29

more than 10 points ahead because

1:32

of trying a penalty. You're

1:34

sort of within range and you're

1:37

almost at the mercy of how much South

1:40

Africa are going to seize control of a game

1:42

with the forwards that they've got on their bench. And

1:45

unfortunately for England, it just fell

1:47

away, didn't it? But it was stirring. I think the

1:50

reaction

1:51

from a lot of people has been that it's a performance

1:53

to sort of reassure and

1:57

restore pride. And I think that's

1:59

totally fair. I think a semi-final exit on

2:02

the face of it, given England's draw, isn't

2:05

particularly special. It's almost par, but I think that

2:07

performance ratchets up actually how

2:09

the whole tournament campaign will be viewed.

2:12

Charles, I know you settled down with a nice

2:15

glass of whisky last night to watch the game, but

2:18

what did you make of it?

2:20

Similar emotions and

2:22

similar sort of reflections as Saturday

2:24

really. It was a colossal effort. The

2:27

team lost, you

2:29

really felt for Steve Borthwick

2:31

and his coaching team who had concocted

2:34

and conjured this tactical

2:36

master plan that

2:39

came within a point or

2:42

two points of sealing the

2:45

win and delivering the goods. I agree

2:48

with Charlie, I think that that performance,

2:51

regardless of the result, I know the result

2:53

would be seen as par when written down on paper.

2:56

I think that performance has done a lot

2:59

to convince the English rugby

3:01

public that Steve Borthwick

3:04

has the capabilities to

3:06

get this team back

3:08

to where it should be at the top of

3:11

the world tree. We

3:14

do have the players to compete at that level and

3:17

maybe he just needs a little bit more time. Clearly

3:20

what he inherited was not

3:23

in the best state, but in

3:26

such a short period of time he's brought it such

3:28

a long way. I think him is coaching

3:30

staff and the players deserve

3:33

enormous credit. I think that's

3:35

all very fair. I think we often have forgotten

3:37

over the past year where England were

3:40

in January when the coaching staff came in

3:42

and the job that they've had

3:44

to do really. Tons of coverage on

3:47

the website, as you'd expect from that game. Keep

3:50

an eye out for Charlie having a look

3:52

at some of the players who should come into

3:54

the England squad. We were

3:57

always wondering about who's

3:59

next.

3:59

next. And what's going to happen with the side?

4:02

And also the latest in this incident

4:04

between Tom Curry and Bongi and Ben Ambi, which

4:06

seems to be changing almost by

4:08

every couple of hours. So there's plenty, plenty

4:11

for you to look out for on the website. But for now, let's

4:14

dig in more into the game and find out how South Africa

4:16

squeaked into another World Cup final. Oh,

4:22

it was really tough for England, wasn't it? Having

4:26

just started so well. Charlie,

4:28

if I come to you first, there was loads

4:30

to like about that start. What was it in particular

4:33

which you were really impressed by?

4:36

I'll ask a question because

4:38

it was multifaceted as well.

4:41

And as we've always said, where Steve

4:43

Borthwick is at his best or where Steve

4:45

Borthwick teams are at his best more accurately is when those

4:47

different facets of a performance marry up. And

4:50

I think England finally got there with

4:52

that, albeit they would have liked to have been,

4:55

despite the conditions, they might feel that they

4:57

could have been a little bit more clinical moving the ball

4:59

and just finishing off a couple of trash

5:03

scoring chances, maybe better field position

5:06

would be sort of more fair to say. Most

5:10

impressive for me was just how they withstood

5:12

South Africa's more. They almost nullified totally

5:15

South Africa's more. That was a fantastic, fantastic

5:17

battle. And then a couple of times South Africa

5:19

ran a really clever line up move where they went

5:22

over 15 metres and went back inside to cut the arranza

5:24

and Alex Mitchell was alert enough to make a fantastic

5:27

tap tackle. You saw physicality from

5:30

Elliot Daly with on

5:32

the back of so laws, sweeps, return

5:34

over, doesn't he? On the back of

5:36

that, Alex Mitchell tap

5:37

tackle, Alex Mitchell was fantastic with his controls

5:40

kicking. He then at that stage of the game,

5:42

he then lifts a box kick for

5:44

Elliot Daly to absolutely smoke by Vermeulen.

5:48

I don't know that we could go on about other aspects of his selection,

5:51

I think went really well. We'll

5:54

talk maybe about the timing of the replacements

5:56

and the ordering of that team, but I don't think

5:58

much more could have been done.

5:59

done as far as

6:02

preparing the side. So

6:04

yeah, there's a few things to go out there,

6:06

but I think the

6:08

overarching feeling was just how assured

6:10

they were and how much conviction there was in that plan,

6:13

and you don't get to 15-6 up against

6:15

the world champions without that. There

6:18

was no, it wasn't that it was a lucky performance,

6:20

it was that so much of their preparation

6:23

had come off.

6:24

All the defining moments of that first half, I

6:26

mean, you've touched on one there, Daily Smoking

6:28

for Moolan, but they were all, I

6:30

think, all except for the break

6:34

by Kirtle Arendze, they were all on the English side.

6:36

You think of George Martin, you

6:39

think of the Lord's turnovers and

6:42

well then just into the second half,

6:44

the Farrell drop goal, all the big defining

6:47

moments of the match all seemed, and the moral

6:50

disruption in the first half as well that was so

6:52

key, it

6:54

all seemed to be, the stars seemed to be

6:56

aligning for England, but yeah,

6:59

that bench that we'll chat about soon, it just

7:01

killed them, didn't it?

7:03

I think it was for me if I had to pick

7:05

one, it was pretty just how accurate

7:08

England's kicking game was off both 9

7:11

and 10, but more to that how the chasers

7:14

actually were so effective again the ball back, we were

7:16

promoting in the warm ups, weren't we, how England were kind

7:18

of just sending up kicks and never

7:21

really seemed to be in a position to actually slap the ball

7:23

back or actually compete in the air, but they did that so

7:25

well. I mean, it was conditions,

7:28

conditions they were praying for, I think is fair

7:30

thing to say, like when they spoke about how

7:32

the conditions basically dictated their game plan,

7:35

and it just so happens that that is their preferred kind

7:37

of game plan and the way that they

7:39

want to attack teams and it

7:42

all fell into their lap in that regard and,

7:44

you know, but they actually executed that kicking game so

7:46

well that I was just very impressed

7:49

by that. I wonder

7:52

if you had to rank where England's

7:54

performance kind of sits, they

7:56

had some good wins in Australia. Is

8:00

it their best win since that semi-final

8:02

in 2019?

8:06

Well, they lost. Best

8:09

performance, I should say. No, it's not their best win.

8:15

Their best moral win. Yes,

8:17

I think it's up there with South Africa

8:19

winning the autumn of 2021. Australian,

8:24

I don't think quite the same beast as South Africa,

8:27

although that test series win was exceptional.

8:30

I'd say yes. I'd say

8:32

yes simply because 60, 65 minutes,

8:36

they were virtually flawless. And

8:39

I don't think an England team

8:41

has put that sort of an immaculate

8:43

stretch together in the

8:49

past four years in such a sort of consistent

8:53

short burst. We've seen it in bursts,

8:56

but to have such a long stretch, to have an hour stretch,

9:00

it wasn't enough in the end, of course. I'm

9:03

sure Steve Borthwick and his coaches will be

9:05

leading a post-mortem of that final 20

9:08

minutes and what happened. But

9:11

the first hour was immensely encouraging.

9:14

Speaking of Steve Borthwick, we've got a bit of audio

9:16

from him now, just from the post-match, just talking

9:18

about the preparation, the time we've

9:20

been around everything in two few months, as opposed

9:22

to having a four-year

9:24

cycle. So here's that audio now.

9:26

As for the game plan tonight, as

9:28

for how we come as a team, we're

9:31

playing against a team there that's had a coaching team that's

9:33

been in place since the middle of 2018. They

9:36

had 18 months to the World Cup and won an incredible

9:39

achievement to win the 2019 World Cup and has had four

9:41

years since then of continuous development,

9:43

bringing players through. And the coaching

9:46

team has been really, really consistent.

9:49

For us, we've had four months as a coaching

9:51

team with the players. I've

9:53

asked the players to approach training in a different way,

9:55

I've asked them to approach the way we think about the

9:57

game in a different way. to

10:02

ask them to do that and the players to be willing to change,

10:04

I

10:05

think that's all credit to them,

10:07

because I've been willing to change it, I've been willing to

10:09

try some different things. Tonight was another example

10:12

of that and I'm

10:14

really grateful to them for the attitude

10:16

they bring every day. Just off the back of that,

10:18

I think we have to talk about the

10:21

scrum and just how well that

10:25

went for South Africa and how disastrously it went

10:27

for England in the second half. Oxencheer

10:29

came on against France and was absolutely

10:32

brutal with the way that he took Dory

10:34

and Aldegarry apart, wasn't he? He

10:37

repeated the trick for the second time

10:39

in a week against first

10:42

Dan Cole, he would scrum as well up to that point,

10:44

but then also Carl Sinkl and

10:48

Carl Sinkl came on. I like

10:51

that Oxencheer has a personal motto

10:53

that salads don't win scrums and he certainly

10:57

seemed to absolutely relish the

10:59

opportunity right there. Charlie,

11:02

that's going to be

11:04

a bit of a concern long term, do you think, given

11:08

the proper resources available to England and who's

11:11

coming through?

11:12

Yeah, cold hard facts of it, that's two

11:14

World Cup campaigns that have finished

11:17

with a scrum being

11:21

an area that's harmed them and

11:25

has leaked penalties at vital

11:27

points. I actually got just, I can't

11:29

even remember now whether it was before the tournament

11:31

or during the tournament, but at one point in

11:34

the last couple of months I went down to, I

11:37

had a call with a couple of the England age

11:39

group coaches about

11:42

this type five camp that they're running and bringing

11:44

in the most promising players in,

11:46

sort of the most promising props hookers,

11:49

to really solidify that area of the game

11:52

and it was really interesting to hear them talk about

11:54

how it was, I asked

11:56

specifically is this a reaction to what

11:59

the talent

11:59

that's coming through?

11:59

to senior level and how that's getting ready through

12:03

premiership games and then and sort of being at

12:06

what point is it available to

12:08

national coaches and they were saying no it wasn't it

12:10

was it's more more a reaction

12:12

to how age group coaching has gone and

12:15

how there was a dictatorial

12:18

sort of side of coaching and that's evolved

12:20

into that evolved into sort of a lot of small

12:22

sided games and then they were just

12:24

wondering whether those small sided games were really

12:26

getting the most out of these or sorry developing

12:29

these set piece skills in the best way possible so

12:32

the RFE are on it if you think of

12:34

sort of who's around

12:37

in the in the piece you mentioned earlier Colsey I've mentioned Joe

12:39

Hayes 24 years old already 125 first

12:42

team games for Leicester Tigers which is absolutely

12:44

mad

12:45

um

12:47

there's uh on

12:50

the loose head side Finn Baxter at Harley Quinn's

12:52

is just is just one guy obviously in

12:54

those two cases Hayes

12:56

and Baxter they they're being mentored by

12:58

Dan Cole and Joe Marla at

13:01

club level for the foreseeable future

13:03

so that's a huge boost and England have got to make

13:05

the most of those networks maybe

13:07

something that um is being overlooked

13:09

in all of this and which shout out to Charles he

13:11

mentioned Ben Bang on at the time

13:14

was that England got pushed off um

13:16

they didn't concede a penalty but they got pushed

13:18

pushed off a scrum as in Che arrived in

13:20

the 52nd minute 53rd minute something

13:22

like that you can see the penalty though and

13:25

at that point George Martin went off and he'd been

13:27

scrummaging behind Dan Cole and obviously

13:30

big old boy was seriously

13:32

impressive um and kind of grabbed that we gave him

13:34

the big raps on the on the in the preview party

13:36

sort of delivered on that didn't he um but that

13:39

was that was another factor so it's the whole

13:41

type five and that just goes to show doesn't it um

13:44

you've just got it you've just got to be stable in that

13:46

in that in that area the whole the

13:49

whole time England weren't stable

13:51

at the beginning of the 2019 World

13:54

Cup Final and and they paid for it they

13:56

weren't stable at the end of the 2023 World Cup

13:59

semi-final and they

13:59

What I can't quite comprehend

14:02

is that Alisk, Genge and

14:04

Karsinka are good scrimmages. I've seen

14:06

a lot this week of throwing them under the

14:08

bus and saying they're not technically good

14:11

and technically sound-scrimmaged as they are, so I'm not sure

14:13

if it just was maybe Genge

14:15

has not come off the bench very often

14:18

in this tournament and that's a slightly different sort

14:20

of frame of mind you've got to be into scrimmage

14:22

and maybe that went against them a little bit. I'm

14:25

not sure because his scrimmaging has improved so,

14:27

so much. For England have played

14:30

Ireland over the past couple of years, he's really

14:32

had furlong on the ropes and you think of that

14:34

game in the 2022 Six

14:37

Nations where Charlie Ewes was sent off, England

14:39

sort of had a seven plus one pack

14:42

almost and he

14:45

really had furlong on the ropes so he's not a

14:47

bad scrimmager but he did get it wrong last week

14:49

and he was under a lot of pressure from Vincent

14:52

Koch who's not as good a scrimmager as Franz

14:54

Malherber. I

14:56

still think that final penalty that decided

14:58

the game was incredibly harsh, especially

15:03

as a match defining, match deciding

15:07

decision but there were a couple

15:09

of others that were absolutely stone wall thinkers so

15:11

England couldn't really have too many complaints about

15:14

the final penalty when that was the way that the wind

15:16

was blowing anyway. I think in

15:19

ideal circumstances Ben O'Keefe would have reset

15:21

and then it probably would have ended up with a South Africa penalty

15:23

anyway so there's not really many

15:25

complaints that England can have.

15:28

But yeah I just found that Sinclair got

15:30

incredibly long-legged, I don't know if Oxen Chey,

15:32

if that was due to how short Oxen

15:34

Chey is and the angle that he was going in on but yeah

15:38

it seemed completely different to

15:40

the scrimmaging picture that Joe Malher and Dan

15:42

Cole were painting earlier in the game.

15:45

You mentioned the way the wind was

15:47

blowing there Charles, isn't that the key of it that

15:50

it was sort of a narrative that

15:52

was just going towards a quite inevitable

15:54

conclusion? They'd

15:57

forced the penalty even before they repeated

15:59

the trick of that too. They had two marks,

16:01

didn't they? And the first one, they

16:03

really weighed up. South Africa really weighed

16:05

up, calling for the scrum again. And the second

16:07

one, they did. And England sort of locked it out. But

16:10

you just felt that there was another kind

16:14

of dominant

16:16

shove in them. And that's the whole

16:18

kind of, that's what, and the

16:20

reverse was happening at the beginning of the game because Cole

16:23

and Marla were painting these good pictures

16:25

and setting the narrative that, no, we're always legal.

16:27

We're strong under this. And you wonder whether

16:29

that 52nd minute scrum actually with Cole

16:32

still on the field was the one that changed

16:35

things. And although, as we said, England

16:37

didn't actually infringe at that, that set the tone

16:39

of, right, OK, the back end of this

16:41

game is only going one way. And that's, as

16:44

we keep saying, referees are human. That's sort

16:47

of the way these momentum swings work.

16:50

I think the one that was incredibly unfair was

16:53

that one on the line where

16:55

Farrell had put the kick through, Kirtle, Arendzsa

16:57

had spilled. At that point, that felt like another

16:59

key moment in the game. In fact, at that point,

17:01

I thought that England were going

17:04

to push on from there and win, maybe

17:06

not score a try. But I thought Farrell might drop another

17:08

three points. And

17:11

then that one did seem unfair because Sinko

17:13

did stay very, very straight. He went backwards.

17:15

And that's not a penalty.

17:18

Going backwards at the scrim is not a penalizable offense.

17:20

And he stayed very straight and then just went again quite

17:23

straight. And I thought that that was incredibly harsh.

17:25

And that felt, again, like a turning point in the game.

17:29

And also just linked to this, what a cruel twist of

17:31

fate that the match-winning three points came

17:33

from a shank, Freddie Stewart,

17:35

Gary Owen, and spill that

17:39

led to the scrum with the penalty when he was exquisite,

17:41

all-game, magnificent, all-game. His first

17:44

error came in the 77th, 78th minute. And

17:48

it cost is probably a little bit too

17:50

strong. But it certainly led to the match-winning

17:53

penalty, which was just incredibly cruel.

17:55

Yeah, you're right. It was brilliant. When

17:59

it went back to the scrum. in the

18:01

early hours on Sunday morning,

18:03

there's one that and Che wins penalty

18:05

where England don't even protest. They just

18:07

literally trot away and I think that probably said more

18:10

than anything just how under the cost they were in certain

18:13

areas. They were quite happy to

18:16

just get to the next bit of phase play because they

18:18

knew they were under the pump. In terms

18:22

of the latest for Tom Curry and

18:24

Bongi and Benambe, so to recap

18:26

for anyone who's playing catch up, although you'll

18:29

have done well to have missed it the last couple of days.

18:32

Tom Curry went over to the referee Ben and Keith in the first

18:35

half and said that he'd been called something by

18:37

Bongi and Benambe and asked what he was meant

18:39

to do. The kind

18:42

of raffling cordial fact came out Sunday

18:44

mornings, Africa were asked about it in

18:48

their Sunday morning press conference and

18:51

Deil Davis, the assistant coach, said he wasn't aware

18:54

of it. The

18:56

story then came out with the audio from the raffling,

18:58

World Rugby now investigating, South Africa

19:01

have released a statement as well saying that they were

19:03

chatting to Bongi and Benambe about it and the latest kind

19:06

of twist is sort of whether the

19:08

moment and what Bongi and Benambe said has

19:10

been lost in translation between what

19:12

Tom Curry thought he heard and the

19:15

Africans between Bongi and Benambe might

19:17

have said. Charles,

19:19

this is a story which isn't

19:22

quite yet over and it

19:24

does seem feasible that Bongi

19:26

and Benambe might have been talking in Africans but there's

19:29

obviously huge

19:31

sort of potential repercussions

19:33

if he was to get suspended given he's the only

19:35

hooker in the squad, isn't he? Yeah,

19:38

so they would not be able to call

19:40

up a replacement because you can't call up a replacement for

19:43

a player that's been banned so it would be Dion Fore

19:45

starting at two with Marco van

19:47

Stann on the bench you'd expect. The

19:50

linguistic basis of the defence I've no

19:52

doubt about but

19:55

we know the subtext here is we know there

19:57

is history between these two players from that game

19:59

in 2020. at Twickenham. We

20:02

know that Bongi

20:04

and Benambe didn't shake Tom Curry's hand

20:06

after the game. And

20:09

I don't think, correct me

20:11

if I'm wrong here, but I don't think that Bongi

20:14

and Benambe would have been aware of Tom Curry's

20:16

complaint to Ben O'Keefe at the

20:18

time because it happened away

20:21

from the South Africa players. So he might

20:24

not have been aware of that complaint at the time. And then

20:26

so, to be

20:28

honest, it's a shame that we're having to talk about

20:30

this and it's a shame that the

20:33

match has been sort of almost tainted by this, what

20:35

was a fantastic game and a fantastic England performance.

20:37

I don't think we will ever truly

20:40

discover the truth. I think there's probably one, maybe

20:42

two people who know exactly what went on. And

20:45

so therefore I think it might be all a bit of an exercise

20:47

in futility, really. I know World Rugby are investigating,

20:50

but I can't imagine them finding anything

20:52

particularly conclusive.

20:54

Is the greatest scandal from that game

20:56

not actually that you changed your prediction

20:59

right before kickoff? Saying that South

21:01

Africa were going to win, having said... Oh my goodness.

21:03

...that England were going to win.

21:05

I mean, let's talk about that for a second, shall we?

21:08

Well, yeah. So on the podcast special

21:10

last week, I sort of had

21:13

felt a lot more confident about an England victory.

21:15

And then just before kickoff,

21:17

I said South Africa narrowly. In my defence, all

21:19

I would say is Steve Borthwick's

21:21

tactical masterclass also completely mirrored Charles

21:24

Richardson's tactical masterclass. Because last

21:26

Monday, I wrote a piece on the Telegraph website

21:28

that was ripped to shreds by

21:31

our co-incidences and subscribers on how England

21:33

could get into South Africa. And it basically

21:36

revolved around starting Joe Marla, starting

21:39

Freddie Stewart, and kicking

21:41

the leather off everything and letting Elliot Daly

21:43

and Johnny May, who were taller

21:45

than Kurt Lear, Ernst and Cheslyn Colby, win everything

21:47

back and exploit South Africa aerially. And

21:50

lo and behold, that is exactly what

21:52

happened. But of course, we didn't win.

21:54

So actually, I didn't quite have enough.

21:57

Yeah, and my preview

21:59

offering was... how Danny Kerr should start

22:01

over Alex Mitchell and that was absolutely the opposite.

22:04

That was horrific, happy to

22:07

hold up my hands but in my defence

22:09

that was, I would say by a long

22:11

way Alex Mitchell's most assured performance

22:14

certainly in a kicking, from a kicking

22:16

point of view he was absolutely fantastic,

22:18

so much precision, so much calm at the base

22:20

of those rucks and actually shout out of a moment I'd

22:22

totally forgotten that at half time was there

22:25

about four seconds left before

22:28

the end of the half and he took the ball away and sort of scurried,

22:30

sort of side winding towards his

22:32

own dead ball line and kicked it out

22:35

on the nose of 40 minutes I've seen and

22:37

Roman Antomac did that and thought that's

22:40

one of the coolest things I've seen and then

22:42

for Alex Mitchell to replicate

22:44

it was

22:46

icy, very cool. Ryan Eck was

22:48

breathing down his neck wasn't he? The only other thing I would say

22:50

is that I said that it should be Ford Farrell and

22:53

I think in hindsight with

22:55

how little action there was in the midfield and

22:57

how often England kicked, I do think

22:59

that might have been

23:02

a mistake to not go to not go Ford Farrell,

23:04

maybe with Manu at 13, I mean South Africa,

23:07

Jesse Creel didn't touch the ball once so the argument

23:10

of defence is

23:12

not quite as sound

23:16

as usual. I do think maybe

23:19

if there was going to be that much kicking

23:22

from both sides then I think maybe Ford

23:24

Farrell could have been the way to go but it should have would

23:26

have could have and it's difficult to be

23:28

critical because of just what the

23:31

sort of gargantuan size of the effort.

23:34

He's saying that he didn't take the under

23:36

on overall centre touches

23:38

at four and a half because I

23:41

certainly did, look at the

23:43

weather. What about the,

23:45

I mean

23:47

it's a terrible weekend for the bookies because

23:49

they had South Africa by 13. What would

23:51

they all think of it 15-6? Yeah

23:54

no that's very true. Listen, South

23:56

Africa three to the final, they're going to face

23:59

New Zealand. And New Zealand got there actually

24:01

playing some

24:04

very nice rope beat just in a bit of a dull

24:06

game. So let's talk about that next. Right, Friday night in

24:08

Paris.

24:10

From

24:15

the moment we got to the stadium, I think it's about to

24:17

say it all felt a little

24:19

bit different to the

24:22

Island of New Zealand France-Africa quarterfinals from

24:24

the weekend before, which was sort of what we feared.

24:27

And then Argentina

24:29

started actually quite lively, didn't they? And

24:32

then Charles, Charles, it all kind

24:34

of went wrong and it turned into the wheelchair

24:36

and New Zealand are going to run your socks

24:38

off show. And that was fun, wasn't it? But

24:40

it just wasn't the best game.

24:44

It unraveled, didn't it? I mean, I think there's

24:46

a good comparison to be made here. I think

24:48

people who say that, you know,

24:51

who try and sort of play down England's performance

24:53

a bit and say that, oh,

24:55

you know, South Africa would have been emotionally and physically

24:58

shattered after that victory against France.

25:01

So the fact that England didn't even win against

25:04

a team that were that much on the ropes, you

25:06

know, should go down as a black

25:08

mark, really, and a bit of a failure. But then, you know, I

25:11

would put it to them that the night before

25:13

New Zealand were in exactly the same position. OK,

25:15

they'd had one day extra to recover,

25:18

but they're in exactly the same position against,

25:23

you know, they'd beaten Ireland in a similarly

25:25

titanic match a week before. And

25:28

they were coming up against Argentina, who really had nothing

25:30

to lose. And the embarrassment for New

25:32

Zealand in losing to Argentina in comparison

25:34

with South Africa to England would have been far greater.

25:37

So there was far more fresh pressure. Argentina

25:40

gave it a good go for 10 minutes. And then that was that. Also,

25:43

Colsey, in the entry, you referred to this as a warm

25:45

up dish. Is that a sort of starter

25:47

or a mousse bouche? What sort of

25:50

warm up dish were we talking

25:52

about on the list? Let's go. On Friday

25:54

night, sorry.

25:55

Let's go and mousse

25:57

bouche. I'm glad you also mixed up the days there.

26:40

That

28:00

was rock bottom for me. It was devastating

28:03

and that's what has driven me on to this point

28:05

and actually had driven the all-blacks all

28:07

week knowing that they previously

28:10

smashed Ireland in a – well, obviously they

28:12

didn't smash them this time, but in 2019 they smashed

28:14

Ireland and then

28:17

just didn't want it the same pitch

28:19

the next week.

28:20

So there was that added

28:22

incentive and that added desire

28:25

from them and they were

28:27

plenty good. I know Angus

28:29

Gardner's got some stick for some

28:32

breakdown interpretations

28:35

and afterwards we had – I don't

28:38

want to overstate this but one of the moments of the tournament

28:40

where Michael Czecco was explaining

28:42

these breakdown interpretations

28:44

in Spanish and broke out of

28:46

Spanish to say that's the game brother and

28:49

I haven't stopped thinking about that since to be honest.

28:52

And by the end, New Zealand was

28:55

throwing away tries for fun.

28:57

Mowing it up passing to Will Jordan where he could have break the try

29:00

scoring record. I mean it was – by

29:03

that second half, by the time Aaron

29:07

Smith scored that try just after half time,

29:09

that was – Argentina's goose game

29:11

was gone and it just became a – you

29:14

don't really want to say this and no disrespect

29:16

to Argentina but it almost became a bit of a training ground exercise

29:19

by the second half because the game was

29:21

so far from them that they're not a team

29:24

that are going to chase down a

29:27

sizeable lead against the All Blacks. Argentina,

29:29

they needed to be always in touch, always

29:32

in touch, if maybe not if always leading.

29:34

There was that big moment that we discussed after the

29:36

game in the aftermath where

29:39

Argentina chose to kick the three, where

29:42

they had a penalty that they could have kicked a touch

29:44

and when they were already trailing.

29:48

You're underselling this. You couldn't stop

29:50

telling anyone who had listened on the Metro about this

29:52

moment on the way back to where we

29:54

were saying. It almost

29:57

made you explode.

29:59

Yeah, I felt at the time when you

30:02

were trailing, I can't remember how many points they were trailing by at

30:04

the time, but I think it might have been six,

30:06

maybe nine points in the first half.

30:10

They had a penalty that they decided to kick for goal

30:13

when they'd had a period of pressure in the New Zealand 22. And

30:16

I felt like that was the moment where they should have

30:18

kicked the corner, five-meter line out and tried to,

30:21

their more was good, Argentina's more was good, and they

30:23

should have tried to, that was the time. They had to

30:25

score a try there, they had to get some points on the board,

30:27

and I just didn't feel like chipping

30:29

away with three points was going to be enough for Argentina

30:32

against this New Zealand team, they were going to have to score a

30:34

try at some point. And that felt like a big moment. Once

30:37

they kicked that three, New Zealand went down the other

30:39

end, and then from there on, it was all one-way

30:41

traffic, it was a procession, really. Just

30:44

to wrap up this section, before

30:47

we do a bit of a deeper dive into the final, just

30:49

a quick yes-no. Does Will Jordan

30:52

break the Rebel World Cup tri-scoring

30:54

record, which he's currently tied on with eight, with

30:57

Ch

30:59

Charlie,

31:04

yes or no?

31:07

Yes, for Richie Mwonga's

31:09

sake.

31:10

Charles?

31:13

I'm going to go yes. An interesting

31:16

stat that I was handed yesterday

31:19

by a friend of mine is that if he does

31:21

do it, he will be the only one of that group to have

31:23

scored in the final.

31:25

Ooh, that's quite good. I'm

31:27

going to go no.

31:29

The weather in Paris isn't very good, and it

31:31

might be the same as last week. Kicking

31:33

glory. Right, let's do a bit more analysis

31:35

on the final next. Okay,

31:41

it's an after-win back to our finals.

31:45

But are New Zealand

31:47

maybe the favourites?

31:49

Charlie, if I come to you first, based

31:51

on what they've done the last couple of weeks?

31:55

Yes, I think

31:57

so. I haven't looked at what the bookies

31:59

are saying. I don't know if they are genuine favorites, but

32:02

I would have New Zealanders favorites. I think that

32:04

they will win. I think that the last two

32:06

weekends will have taken so much out of South

32:08

Africa. I think it's a massive, massive

32:10

ask for them to go again against that caliber

32:13

of opposition. And

32:15

New Zealand have been just building very, very

32:17

steadily. If you think about their nadir, their rock

32:19

bottom was that warm up against South Africa at

32:21

Twickenham where they were obliterated. Their

32:24

heaviest ever lost to South Africa. And

32:27

since then, it's just been steady improvement

32:30

even in the France game. I know they lost,

32:32

but for 40, 50 minutes, they

32:34

were arguably the better side and

32:37

looked like they were gonna go on and win. And then since then,

32:40

it's just been upwards and onwards and that

32:42

demolition of Italy. That

32:46

miraculous victory really against Ireland

32:48

where they were phenomenal. And

32:51

then they've had an extra day's rest heading into the

32:53

final. They didn't play as strenuous

32:55

a test against in their semifinal

32:58

on Friday night as South Africa did

33:00

on Saturday against England. Yeah,

33:03

I think they have to be favorites. I think that they will cope.

33:05

They will cope better with the bomb squad and South Africa's

33:08

physicality as well.

33:09

I guess if there's one area

33:12

that might worry you slightly if

33:14

you're an all-black fan, it's gonna be the scrum

33:18

and just whether New Zealand's props can sort of handle

33:20

what South Africa have been dishing out over the last couple

33:23

of weeks. I mean, I don't love the idea

33:25

of an all-black fan of Oxman

33:27

Che against Fletcher Newell in the second

33:30

half late on in Paris. That feels like a

33:32

scrum mismatch. And maybe that'll

33:36

force Foster's hand and maybe he might go

33:38

another way and have Othe to Ngofasci on

33:40

the bench instead. I think that's gonna

33:42

be where South Africa hoped that

33:44

they can make some ground.

33:47

I don't necessarily think it will happen on

33:50

Tamiati Williams' side up

33:53

against kind of Francois Herber and Vincent Koch because

33:55

I think he's quite a good scrumager. But

33:57

yeah, the in Che Fletcher

33:59

Newell.

34:00

potential matchup does worry me slightly.

34:02

Where New Zealand can sort

34:05

of take home is that England really

34:07

should, by the time Ox

34:10

and Vincent Cott came on and started doing

34:12

their thing, England should have really have been further in front

34:14

from the dominance that they had and

34:16

the way that the game had gone. New Zealand

34:18

will be saying the same in that

34:21

we could go out and blow them away first half

34:23

a bit like England did, blow them away in the start

34:25

the second half and the game could be gone by the time

34:28

the bomb squad comes on. And really

34:31

with England you're looking at one more

34:34

penalty, one more drop goal and

34:37

that probably would have been the case of the Sunday final as well.

34:39

So I think New Zealand will

34:41

fancy themselves as a better side than England. They

34:44

could come out, the box play quite

34:46

a limited conservative game plan, although they didn't

34:48

move the ball wider. You

34:50

know, normally now they didn't last weekend

34:54

and I think they've backed themselves to sting them

34:58

and sort of neutralise the threat of

35:01

that bomb squad

35:03

in that way

35:04

rather than addressing it directly.

35:07

Yeah, Charlie, what

35:09

are TAFC are going to do with,

35:12

there's some selection decisions they kind of need to make don't

35:14

they? Because they hooked Manny Libach on 31 minutes,

35:17

Damien Wilhelms was off pretty early in

35:20

the second half, it just felt like they didn't have

35:23

any control of the

35:25

kicking game and that they were making basic areas. Would

35:27

you start Pollard and the

35:31

current crowd favourite in England, Fili

35:33

LaRue after the antics of the final whistle,

35:35

would you start both of them?

35:38

Definitely start Fafte Clark. The other

35:41

two I'm not sure, really

35:44

interestingly Damien Wilhelms, the

35:46

last time he looked that ruffled in the game

35:48

was when New Zealand

35:56

delivered the template on how to play against South Africa

35:58

in Auckland in July by... by kicking a

36:00

lot off 10, finding Valenza,

36:02

isolating Valenza

36:04

and Mepimpe and those guys in the

36:06

back three and winning the scraps

36:09

because where they are, Charles kind of hinted

36:11

at it there, where they have another

36:13

dimension to England is they

36:16

can probably be just as accurate and just

36:18

as kind of teasing with that kicking game with

36:21

Moana and Boden Barrett and Jordy

36:23

Barrett. But what they have off the

36:25

back of that is when they are winning those loose

36:27

balls back, they will have the confidence and the ability

36:30

to spread the balls of space off the back of that and score tries

36:32

rather than just rely on going

36:34

three, three, three. So they

36:39

are a huge, I thought de

36:41

Klerk actually, I spoke to him afterwards and said what

36:43

was the specifics behind your role and

36:45

he said, which really kind of surprised

36:48

me, he said body language because actually, and

36:50

it was really funny, if you picked up after the

36:52

game, they were desperate to sort

36:56

of give the impression that self belief had never wavered

36:59

but Fafte Klerk sort of admitted,

37:01

yeah, self belief was sort

37:03

of in danger of, it's not

37:06

always the case but in danger of wavering a little

37:08

bit. He was very calm. I think

37:12

I would start Pollard yet because

37:15

going three, six, nine South Africa

37:17

is going to be very important. LaRue,

37:20

jury's out, still unsure, I think

37:23

Vilemza gives you that little bit.

37:25

He's still got spark there and I

37:28

think maybe in harness with Pollard that might still

37:31

be valuable. But I think Vilemza was

37:33

disastrous in that reign.

37:35

He was absolutely all over the shop. I

37:38

don't think they can take that risk again. I think

37:41

I'd start LaRue definitely. I think Vilemza,

37:44

England completely rattled him. He looked

37:46

absolutely all over the shop. I thought he was, sorry,

37:49

I thought he was the worst player on the pitch frankly and I

37:51

thought I was surprised that they

37:53

didn't hook him at the same time

37:55

as Liburg and bring Pollard and LaRue on together

37:58

because I think they were both. I

38:00

think to be honest, I think, I think

38:02

Wilhamsa looked more lost than

38:05

than Libok, but I know, obviously, fly-off is more of

38:07

a sort of integral position, so

38:09

I can understand why they did it. And

38:13

yeah, I mean, I think there's a chance that visa

38:15

comes back in, that visa

38:17

comes back in just for a bit more physicality hasn't

38:19

played the last two matches, so he'll

38:22

be fresh and raring to go. And they did look,

38:24

they did look a bit overawed and overwhelmed physically

38:27

south Africa, didn't they? And that's one thing that visa brings

38:29

you, he potentially isn't as much of

38:32

a sort of cerebral rugby player as Dwayne

38:34

V Muhlen, but he brings that sort of visceral

38:37

edge that you perhaps want in a one-off

38:39

game like this. I can't see them going unchanged

38:41

again. I think that they might see

38:43

that as a bit of a, you

38:46

know, that they've got away with one there, they've got out of jail free.

38:48

I think that might have been a mistake going

38:50

unchanged between France and

38:53

England. I think

38:54

that's a good point. I'd be up for Villiadaru starting

38:56

if I need to keep himself in the mix

38:59

for player of the tournament and justify my prediction,

39:01

which looks like a bit of an answer with

39:03

the minute, sure.

39:04

Oh, well, you say that, Charlie,

39:06

but I was actually going to big you up a bit because you're

39:08

the only person left in the game for a

39:11

World Cup winner and player of the tournament. I

39:13

mean, the Villiadaru scores

39:16

about four tries and he's named player in the match.

39:18

And I mean, you might walk home with the, with

39:20

the whole back. So congratulations

39:22

in a way. Yeah, that would be,

39:25

that would be quite something.

39:28

We've got to mention Wayne Barnes, actually, who we can

39:30

now

39:31

confirm officially after Charlie

39:34

broke the story on Sunday, he's going to be the referee

39:36

for the World Cup final first time in his career.

39:40

Are we thinking he probably would have been, or

39:42

maybe would have been four years ago, had him in not shot

39:44

New Zealand and got to the final, but, and

39:46

we was, because we were sort of laughing about the prospect

39:49

of this kind of England team

39:51

who've had to sort themselves out in a hurry,

39:53

screwing into the final and potentially denying

39:56

Barnes another shot at the big game, but

39:58

that's not going to happen. there and he's going

40:00

to get it which feels like a justified reward

40:02

for a very fine referee, doesn't it,

40:05

Charles?

40:06

Absolutely, it seems mad that he was refereeing

40:08

a court final in 2007 and now in 2023,

40:13

16 years on, this is his first final. But

40:15

yeah, no, really well deserved, you know, I

40:18

will be honest, I thought that maybe

40:20

in the COVID

40:24

years, 2020, sort of maybe even 2019, 2021, he

40:28

wasn't refereeing at his

40:30

best level. I don't think

40:32

he would, I thought he dropped off a little bit for whatever reason,

40:34

I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's extenuating

40:36

and mitigating reasons for it. And it's

40:39

not a criticism of him, but I just think that others had

40:41

overtaken him a little bit. But now, absolutely

40:44

not. I think that he is, undisputedly,

40:46

the best referee

40:48

in the world and it's, and he gets

40:50

his just desserts for that.

40:52

Charlie, what's it like on the on the referee

40:55

beat, trying to get those stories, you

40:57

know, is it hard times? Is there lots of

40:59

kind of, you know, to work your sources

41:01

hard, talk to us.

41:04

Always, always. No,

41:07

they kind of returned to 2019, that

41:09

was the way the wind was blowing, wasn't it? And I agree.

41:12

I just think now, and

41:14

maybe Charles makes

41:16

a point about his little dip from Barn,

41:19

but I think now certainly at this tournament

41:21

he's just, and maybe the sort

41:23

of 18 months previously, he's just seemed in real

41:25

command of really big, chaotic

41:28

games between sides that are so

41:30

evenly matched. And that's what you want from

41:32

that. It's a, I didn't, it

41:35

was almost a shame that the game, the

41:37

second semifinal, ended on a on a scrumming

41:39

call because actually I thought that the

41:42

way the game panned out, it

41:45

was sort of a sort of a fair

41:48

adult in the end and a kind of reward

41:50

for South Africa making those decisive changes.

41:52

So it's a shame that Van O'Keefe became the

41:55

kind of talking point again and I just find that

41:57

so boring that, you know,

41:59

that

42:01

adults are watching a game and then

42:04

sort of complaining about the ref as the

42:06

first sort of reaction and just find it bizarre.

42:09

But he was pretty good to be fair. In

42:11

the game as a whole, I think he was pretty good.

42:13

Yeah, and Angus Gardner

42:17

penalised Argentina a lot in

42:19

the first half against New Zealand, but guess what? New

42:21

Zealand put them under a hell of a lot of pressure in all sorts of

42:23

facets of the game. So

42:25

that felt, you know, it didn't feel disastrous

42:27

either. I just think with Barnes,

42:31

he's almost like he's so

42:33

comfortable in his own skin now that

42:37

he's willing to kind of ride

42:39

and adapt from the hooves to these huge games that,

42:41

as I say, are so tight

42:43

and decided by tiny margins themselves

42:46

without him having to be a factor that I think it's just

42:48

a fantastic choice and entirely

42:51

well deserved.

42:52

Certainly always quite fun to listen to over the

42:54

ref talk app, isn't he? Old

42:58

Wayne, he's an excellent communicator

43:00

with players. I

43:03

don't think anybody that we

43:06

know sort of picked this final pre-tournament

43:08

in New Zealand, South Africa, which seems quite odd given

43:10

their pedigree at the tournament and

43:13

how often they both

43:15

won the competition and reached the final.

43:18

But it is New Zealand, South Africa, and I

43:20

wonder who's

43:23

going to be the one that kind of breaks the, if

43:25

we start thinking about predictions and getting into

43:27

that, who's going to be the team who's the first

43:30

to win a fourth rugby world cup? I

43:32

like that that is kind of the, that is on the

43:34

line as well for whoever wins this. Charles,

43:37

if I come to you first, how do you sort of see the game

43:40

panning out and who do you think will

43:43

win? Who do you want

43:45

to win to add a bit of spice to it?

43:48

I think it'll be

43:50

cagey and tight

43:53

for sort of 50 minutes and then

43:55

I think New Zealand will run

43:59

away with it. relatively speaking, I

44:01

think they'll finish as

44:03

sort of seven to ten point winners

44:05

with South Africa running out of steam after giving it

44:07

a really good lash. Who do I want to win? I

44:14

don't really mind. I don't really mind. I just want to see

44:17

a good game. I think that there have

44:19

been plenty of valid criticisms

44:21

leveled at this tournament, some

44:24

preventable, some unavoidable.

44:26

I think it needs

44:29

a really spectacular final to just

44:31

send it off with a bit of momentum for

44:33

the next four years. So if we could have just

44:36

a cracking game, New Zealand and South Africa, that would be

44:38

great. Thanks very much. Will

44:40

you be like Ian Foster with your popcorn

44:42

just watching, not carrying you in? I will

44:44

be. I will be. I will

44:47

have my popcorn and I'll have my feet up and

44:49

I won't care who wins.

44:51

Perfect. Charlie, you're going to be there.

44:53

What are you hoping

44:55

for from this final this week?

44:58

I'm going to be there. So my trotters won't be up.

45:01

There isn't enough. The desks are

45:04

too cramped. What

45:07

am I hoping for? I hope that

45:10

whoever wins deserves it and

45:12

is good enough on the day to sort of justify that.

45:14

I think New Zealand will have to start

45:19

strongly as they did in Auckland

45:21

in July and put a bit of

45:23

space between them and make

45:25

sure that South Africa don't have

45:28

a lead and are able to squeeze. I just

45:32

think the big cliche is

45:34

the stars make fights and

45:36

what makes these two nations have

45:39

such a compelling rivalry is that they sort of

45:41

view the game in different ways and that

45:44

to beat New Zealand, South Africa often

45:47

have to pull something out of the bag as far

45:49

as ball movement and flick attack

45:51

and to beat South Africa

45:53

and New Zealand have to stand up in the

45:56

tight exchanges. So I'm hoping

45:58

for another one of them. It's meant to be right. raining

46:00

all week in Paris and then also

46:02

on the day of the game as well. So

46:05

that could play a part, although as we said all

46:07

along New Zealand's skill, they

46:10

played Namibia an absolute monsoon, didn't

46:12

they, to lose and look pretty slick. And

46:14

again, it was pretty greasy in the

46:17

Argentina game. I

46:20

have backed Alaska the whole way.

46:22

I can't change horses now, but

46:24

I think New Zealand

46:27

are coming on really strong.

46:29

I would just say I didn't have

46:32

this as a final, but I had France

46:34

and New Zealand, so I was 50% correct if

46:36

we're counting.

46:38

I don't think we are counting 50% correct

46:41

final predictions. I mean, why

46:43

would we give that any goodness

46:46

me? I actually had New Zealand

46:48

Fiji as the final, so I'm 50% correct. Yeah,

46:52

exactly. I'm now trying to wrap

46:54

my brain to what I predicted. Charlie,

46:56

you must have predicted South Africa, France.

46:59

Yes, sir. No,

47:02

that can't be right. I can't remember. A

47:06

year ago, I predicted South Africa England

47:09

as a final. So I gasped. Yeah,

47:11

I mean, I was predicting a big

47:13

England semi-final performance and then to get the

47:16

same final as last time. I

47:18

can find it for you if you can wait. I don't think

47:20

we can wait.

47:22

You predicted South Africa England a year ago?

47:25

What, as in...? Not yet. As

47:27

in when C-Pawfoot took the job. Just

47:29

slightly less than the year ago. Wow,

47:33

that was

47:34

quite bold. You were nearly... Well,

47:36

you weren't quite right, but you were nearly there.

47:40

I'm not going to do that. 50% counts,

47:45

apparently. I think...

47:49

I do wonder about the clash of styles in the weather

47:51

and it's more that South Africa will be

47:53

desperate to lure New Zealand into that kind

47:56

of kicking game. And it's not that New Zealand can't play that kicking

47:58

game. They've got my one year in Barrett and... Aaron

48:00

Smith's box kicks, I just don't know if Nizi

48:03

didn't want to play that way. I'll

48:06

be interested to see how Colby and

48:09

Arendze get on in the air this

48:11

week, having struggled a bit last week

48:13

against May and Daily, if they're going

48:16

to have Will Jordan, who's essentially a full-back

48:18

coming out in the mean. And Mark Talia's pretty

48:21

good in the air, pretty good over the ball at the breakdown. I

48:23

think that's quite interesting. We've talked

48:25

a bit about the scrum, and if

48:27

Saf could get on top there, then potentially that could

48:29

swing the game like it did last week. It's

48:32

hard, actually, which hopefully

48:35

means that we'll get an absolute belt in the final. But I'm

48:38

just maybe leaning towards

48:40

South Africa, because I

48:42

feel like running South Africa off is foolish,

48:45

based on the last couple of World Cups. But

48:48

I wouldn't mind seeing a New Zealand win with Will

48:50

Jordan getting a couple of tries to set

48:53

a record of 10 tries in

48:55

a World Cup tournament, which I'm not sure will

48:57

be beaten. So

49:00

yeah, those are our predictions. Finals coming up on

49:02

Saturday. Let's have some of your questions,

49:04

and then we'll get out of here.

49:06

Okay,

49:09

just finishing up

49:10

with some questions and thoughts. Stephen

49:12

Colman, who messaged me, just

49:14

for what we made of England's lack

49:17

of use of George Ford, not just

49:19

in the semi-final, but in the quarter-final as well, given

49:21

that he started the tournament

49:25

with those performances against Argentina and Japan, where

49:27

he was so good, and then he's

49:29

gone on to have only two minutes in

49:31

the knockout stages. I just wondered what

49:34

we, maybe more of a longer-term question, because

49:36

I was thinking of squad audit of

49:39

England's players yesterday, and I'm wondering

49:41

who's going to be back for 2027, who won't

49:43

be. And Ford's one of those interesting

49:45

ones, where he'll be 34 by 2027,

49:49

which isn't too old by any

49:51

means to be the World Cup. But

49:53

if Farrell's still there, does he still want to be playing second

49:56

fiddle to Farrell? Charles, I just wondered

49:58

what you make of this.

49:59

kind of situation that he didn't have with Ford

50:02

and Farrell, which I feel like we've never spoken

50:04

about before in the last decade of Ignis Rugby.

50:08

I mean, I've touched on it in this pod already.

50:10

I mean, I think they need to find a way of playing

50:13

them both. I mean, we know that,

50:15

or at least being able to play them both,

50:18

because we know that it does,

50:21

has and can work. We know that Steve

50:23

Borthwick tailors selections

50:26

to specific bespoke

50:28

sections to specific opposition. So there's not

50:30

always going to be a case to start them both,

50:33

or it might be a case of Ford starting or

50:35

Farrell starting at 10. I think

50:37

with a world class 13 and a back three that

50:44

is well-rounded with individual threats

50:46

of their own, I think that Ford Farrell as a 10 to 12

50:48

access works. And as I said earlier

50:50

on, I think that in hindsight,

50:53

and I mean, I know that's a wonderful thing and

50:56

which they wouldn't have had the benefit of last week. I think

50:58

I would have gone for Farrell against

51:00

South Africa if the game plan was

51:04

literally to kick the leather of everything

51:06

at every opportunity. Because

51:09

in the end, you know, Joe Martin didn't

51:11

put a foot wrong

51:13

from what I can remember. And

51:16

his work rate was excellent and he was full of energy, but

51:18

he didn't really have that much to

51:21

do. So there's not really, you

51:23

might as well have had a dual kicking option

51:25

and just try

51:27

and just take every single point

51:29

that was on offer and maybe just try and get just

51:32

that bit further ahead of South Africa

51:35

when the points were on offer.

51:36

Charlie, anything to add on that?

51:39

That's so difficult. It's so difficult and it's a great question.

51:42

And yeah, in hindsight, it's a serious

51:44

ballsy move at the time, isn't it? To go,

51:46

you did just feel

51:48

though, I don't know.

51:51

Am I, I can't remember whether I said this

51:53

at the time, you guys will be able to kind of help me out,

51:55

I think. But at 15-6, it did

51:57

feel like they needed one more score, however

51:59

they got. however they got it. And

52:04

South Africa sort of, among

52:08

all the replacements they made, they obviously kind

52:10

of reinstated the spine of their

52:12

backline by bringing on de Klerk, Pollard

52:14

and LaRue. But what they also did was sacrifice

52:17

even Etzebeth who's among their best

52:19

players. They also took off Daimler-Mulan

52:21

and Tiakilesiefka, Thakwaga-Smith and Fari

52:24

and all of those changes brought

52:27

something's name and particularly was just colossal.

52:30

So yeah, at 15-60 you think, it

52:34

felt like a sort of, it

52:36

felt like a last resort to throw on forward, didn't it? Well,

52:38

it was, it was a last resort to throw on

52:40

forward when they needed to get back ahead

52:42

after that second penalty. So

52:46

difficult. If you're proactive before that, you

52:48

clearly, South Africa, South Africa were holding

52:51

the ball for quite a long time, so you lose that little

52:53

bit of steel defensively. So

52:56

difficult. I thought the way that Borthwick

52:58

dealt with his replacements was

53:01

really, really good. I don't think it was prescribed.

53:04

I've seen it sort of mentioned as prescribed, but actually

53:06

I think he did really

53:08

well in that regard. And if he's doing that so

53:10

early in his career as

53:12

a test head coach, I think it bodes really well for England.

53:15

Do you think George Martin had

53:16

a knock? Did we get to the bottom of this? Was it

53:18

just that he was, he was naked? Because that was

53:20

the one, wasn't it? I mean, we've already touched on it earlier

53:22

in the pod. That was the one where

53:24

we were a bit like, really? Is

53:27

that the right call?

53:29

A physio

53:31

had come on for him to have a look at him. And

53:33

afterwards he was fine. He's a young

53:35

guy who isn't used to going 80 minutes

53:38

in test matches, that's just a fact. So I

53:40

imagine he was goosed and he'd absolutely

53:43

emptied himself, hasn't had any.

53:45

And he's, I mean, by the, you'd

53:48

hope for England's sake that by the 2027 World Cup, he'll

53:51

be playing 80 minutes regularly. His

53:53

knee was strapped up, wasn't it?

53:55

Yeah, I think it always is. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

53:58

yeah.

53:59

How have we got this far into it without

54:03

saying who's going to win the bronze final on

54:06

Friday? Charles, you want it to be polished.

54:09

Yeah,

54:12

I just think after that, how

54:15

deep into the well, emotionally and physically

54:17

England had to go, I

54:19

think now it just seems... I'm

54:22

not saying this because we're

54:24

an English paper and it's got nothing to do

54:26

with that. I'd have been saying the same if it

54:28

was a South Africa Argentina bronze

54:30

final. I just think it's

54:32

a pointless game in the era

54:35

of player welfare to be playing

54:37

a one-off meaningless match that nobody before

54:39

the tournament wants to play in. Nobody. They'd all

54:41

said, no, we've got no

54:43

interest in it. And I think England deep down will

54:45

be feeling that this week too. And now

54:48

in the context of the tournament, they ironically have to

54:50

come up against an Argentina team who are desperate

54:52

to play in this game and bloodthirsty for

54:54

pool stage revenge. They're

54:58

keen to right the wrongs of their semi-final

55:00

and they

55:03

haven't been good. The Pumas haven't been good in this

55:05

tournament and yet we could be in a scenario

55:07

whereby England are going to get blindsided on

55:09

Friday night against the team who are treating it as their

55:11

World Cup final. Then Argentina finish

55:13

third. Paul D, the

55:15

worst pool in maybe in World

55:17

Cup history, is going to provide

55:20

the third and fourth place teams

55:22

in this World Cup.

55:25

It's quite

55:27

fitting, isn't it? Paul D taking

55:30

the spotlight on Friday night. Charlie

55:32

is going to win. I think England again,

55:34

although I think it's going to be closer

55:36

than the first game. And I think Argentina

55:41

have real reason to be up for it because of how poor

55:43

they were in that first game. And then again,

55:45

how poor they were or how overwhelmed

55:47

they were in the semi-final. The

55:50

noises we're getting out of England are encouraging

55:52

because I think they really need

55:55

to win to consolidate

55:57

the goodwill that they've earned from that first performance.

56:01

from the semi-final performance and

56:03

the noises from Steve Orthik

56:05

suggest that you wouldn't expect any differently

56:08

from him to finish

56:10

on a high. I think in doing

56:13

so he'll want to give some

56:16

veterans a farewell and he might want

56:18

to reward guys who've been

56:20

rotated mainly out of the squad. So

56:24

yeah, I can see England edging it. I

56:27

always think of third, fourth player so I always think

56:29

of when Fidel Neville was

56:31

Lionel's manager just basically

56:33

bringing a press conference to silence

56:36

by calling it a nonsense game and

56:38

it just was really sort

56:41

of aggressively savage.

56:43

The game pre-kickoff, not even after the games.

56:46

Brilliant.

56:47

I think we all sort of know it's a bit of a nonsense

56:50

don't we but I

56:52

think both sides want to win it and I think England

56:54

do.

56:55

Yeah, I mean all I know is that Argentina

56:57

are bang up for it as

56:59

they reiterated on Friday night and Thomas Kajou

57:02

even said, I'd like to face England

57:04

again. Thomas, your wish is

57:06

granted. Yeah,

57:08

still thinking of the win though and it might be a nice

57:10

farewell for many players like Courtney

57:12

Laws and others who've given lots of years of excellent

57:15

service. So yeah, hopefully just

57:17

please entertain us and don't be as weird as

57:19

the England Argentina game in Marseille. I think

57:22

that's the only wish that we can really have. Right,

57:24

that's it for today. Thank you Charlie. Thank

57:27

you Charles. It's Rugby World Cup final

57:29

week. We made it. Absolutely delighted.

57:31

Thanks for listening to the podcast

57:34

and for downloading it and reminding you to check out all of

57:36

our coverage on the website this week. Load

57:38

the build

57:38

up towards Friday's game between Argentina and England

57:41

and towards the finals as well. And then

57:43

we'll be back next week for the final episode of the series,

57:46

reflecting on the tournament, having out some awards,

57:49

looking back on the final as well. But

57:51

until then, from all three of us, thank you. Thank

57:53

you. Bye.