0:01

The Telegraph Podcasts.

0:09

Hi

0:15

everyone. How about all that? A

0:17

remarkable quarterfinals weekend in France,

0:20

two absolute classic

0:22

games in Paris, which we'll remember

0:24

forever, I think. And some other matches

0:26

were played in Marseille as well, apparently.

0:29

We're all virtual for this episode this

0:31

week, but you're once more joined by myself, Ben

0:34

Coles. I'm here with Charlie Morgan. Hi, Charlie.

0:37

Hi, Ben. And also with Charles

0:39

Richardson. Salut, Charles. Salut.

0:42

Bonjour tout le monde.

0:43

Charlie and I have popped back to London for

0:45

a couple of days. And Charles, we've left you

0:48

in Paris. Just wondered what the mood is like

0:51

as they try and process what happened on Sunday night.

0:54

Well, yeah, the cold has crept

0:56

into Paris, but it's nothing in comparison

0:58

to the frost that

1:01

hit on Sunday

1:03

night at the Stade de France when

1:06

France crashed out. Yeah, just stunned. I think everyone

1:08

was stunned. I think France as a nation has been

1:10

stunned. They can't believe it.

1:13

Just complete dejection, desolation.

1:16

I've never seen Antoine

1:18

Dupont like that in a post-match press

1:20

conference before.

1:23

What was the tone

1:25

of his... What was the tone of him

1:28

calling out Ben O'Keefe? Because I've never

1:31

seen him, even on the pitch, I've hardly seen him

1:34

break into anything quizzical even. It

1:37

was surprisingly spicy,

1:40

I would say. The first question

1:42

or the second question that he was asked, it happened

1:45

very early on in the press conference.

1:47

A French

1:50

reporter asked him what he thought of Ben O'Keefe's performance

1:53

and Dupont immediately just went

1:55

back and said, well, what did you think of Ben O'Keefe's

1:57

performance?

1:58

That was his retort.

3:37

we

3:40

got you got [unk] sena ten for me to me charles he

3:42

did he just gets an outside i

3:44

thought it was an absolutely magnificent

3:47

mine was

3:59

and how

4:03

much swagger there is about this spring rock side,

4:05

maybe particularly their coaching team and

4:08

how they managed to navigate that game was

4:12

pretty special. I think

4:14

Radhirajmas has been on

4:17

record since I wrote a piece

4:19

that's on our website about that moment, saying

4:22

that it wasn't

4:23

performative, which I disagree

4:25

with a bit, but it was more about engaging

4:27

France in a scrimmaging

4:29

battle and actually, I think,

4:32

even more cleverly to

4:34

make them think about their own kicking game and shortening

4:36

up their kicking game because long kicking has

4:38

been such a foundation of their success over

4:41

this past World Cup cycle. So

4:43

I just thought

4:44

it was really cool on so many levels. Yeah

4:47

I think there's an argument to say that that's

4:50

where the game was won almost. At

4:52

that moment that felt like such a turning point. I

4:54

didn't necessarily feel it so much at

4:56

the time, but looking back in terms

4:59

of how South Africa strangled that

5:01

second half, I think the

5:05

French team have become synonymous with

5:07

being bold and daring and audacious and actually

5:11

the most audacious moment of the entire match

5:13

was at the hands of the spring box. So I think

5:16

that was a monstrous

5:18

moment. It sort

5:20

of meant everything and it meant nothing because I agree with

5:22

all of those things as far as a statement being made,

5:25

Charles. And they won a penalty which

5:27

sort of

5:28

doubled down on how

5:30

much of a flex it was, but then they

5:32

kicked for touch

5:34

and they didn't make teach today. So

5:36

it sort of meant nothing but again, a statement

5:39

of it. Yeah, it was a mentality

5:41

thing and the repercussions of what

5:44

that had done in the minds of

5:46

both referee and France for

5:48

the rest of the game because from then on as well, I think

5:50

that was the first Scrum penalty and from there

5:53

it became a very

5:55

one sided area of the game. Half

5:58

highlight for me was watching Charles.

5:59

give out a 10 out of 10 in his player ratings because

6:02

I was just like, is he going to do it? Is he going

6:04

to do it? And then he did. And I was just,

6:06

I was absolutely astounded. I

6:09

will go with something from Ireland, New Zealand, just the end

6:11

of Ireland, New Zealand, because

6:13

pulling back the curtain slightly, we were

6:15

on player ratings and we filed them before

6:18

the final whistle because of, you know, go

6:20

get the paper away. So as you go to watch the final

6:22

few minutes, I've never felt my sort

6:25

of heart going as

6:27

much as watching a final like

6:29

bit of players, those 37 phases, no

6:32

real affiliation to either side. It was just kind of

6:35

so wrapped up in the moment. I think everyone else was because

6:37

everyone was sort of watching and it was loud, but everyone was

6:39

hushed at the same time. It was just

6:42

extraordinary theatre.

6:45

And yeah, let's talk more about it in a bit.

6:47

But just before we finish this section, England

6:50

are the only Northern Hemisphere team left. Charlie,

6:53

discuss, just like we called it all along. Yeah,

6:56

wild.

6:58

If they were, yeah, I mean, that doesn't surprise

7:01

me hugely just given the draw, but I'd shout

7:03

out to Michael Cheka for giving a really interesting take

7:06

on the draw, which was just that

7:08

they're all encompassing in the in these tournaments.

7:11

And you find out about them with

7:13

years to go and you just tailor everything

7:16

with that draw in mind when you peek and he

7:18

and he used a an example from

7:20

the from the England game because Argentina would were

7:23

horrible, as we've discussed in that in that England

7:25

game. But he said, well, yeah, our

7:27

our prep was in no

7:29

way were we going to we were we were going to peek

7:32

for that. We had a light preparation.

7:34

We didn't play many games. They had the rugby championship.

7:36

And then if you remember, they didn't have another kind

7:38

of big international, they played Spain and

7:40

won that very easily. Actually picked up picked

7:43

up an injury. So it would have been a sort of imagined

7:45

fairly underwhelming run out. And

7:48

then he just said we knew that game would be rough against

7:50

England because we had a lot of guys playing in the World Cup for

7:52

the first time. England have gone

7:54

the other way they've gone for experience. And

7:57

then and then from their Argentina are

7:59

built and built.

7:59

and built and now they've got a shot at reaching

8:02

a final for the first time in history. So to go back

8:04

on England, not hugely

8:06

surprised given the draw. And

8:08

I think it was always going to get to this point

8:10

where they've given Steve Borthwick and his coaching

8:12

team a chance to really work out a

8:15

game plan for a one-off big game and we

8:17

know that that's what he enjoys doing. So

8:19

very interesting times ahead as well. We've basically

8:21

had the draw reversed, haven't we? I mean, the

8:23

upshot may well have

8:26

been the same. I

8:28

might still have always been a New Zealand South

8:31

Africa final. We'll never know. I mean, it

8:33

might not be a New Zealand South Africa final, but that's the way that

8:35

the wind's blowing. I think we'd all agree.

8:37

But I think we've got sort of the quarter

8:39

finals after the semis

8:42

almost certainly how it feels in terms of the

8:44

vibe of the tournament now. I think there was much

8:46

more anticipation last week

8:49

ahead of those four matches than there

8:51

is and has been so far this week. I mean,

8:53

I know we're only early in the week, but I just can't see

8:56

it hitting the same heights as

8:58

it did last week in terms of anticipation just because

9:00

on paper there are two such clear

9:02

favourites.

9:03

Let's dive in to start with

9:05

Charlie

9:06

after a little break to hear what you made

9:08

of England's whenever Fiji to get them into the semi-final.

9:15

Right, Charlie, England are in the final four and

9:17

there's soon to be a consensus that up until

9:19

like the last 20 minutes

9:22

or so this was their best performance at this

9:24

World Cup. What did you make of it?

9:26

Yeah, very good. Very

9:28

good twice actually in two different ways because

9:30

of what you're talking about there. Going 24-10 up,

9:34

they were really good. They kind of didn't

9:36

give Fiji oxygen in the areas

9:38

that Fiji are really good at. I

9:40

thought a really, really

9:42

impressive facet of their game which

9:45

kind of helped them get over the line again at the end was

9:47

they – Livani Botea

9:49

swoops to winner, Jackal turnover with 82

9:52

seconds on the clock from eight in

9:54

the middle of an England attack that actually looks quite sharp.

9:57

Then Habosey gets one out wide after

9:59

England go quick for the final. from a free kick trying

10:01

to throw something a little bit different at

10:04

Fiji. And from there on,

10:06

there was a tangible sense that was

10:09

sort of personified or kind of came

10:12

through most clearly in the performances of England's Backfire

10:14

forwards of right, Mathieu Raynall

10:16

is letting quite a lot go here. We've

10:19

got to be just as aggressive ourselves. And

10:22

to me, it just shows a serious amount of progress

10:24

because how often, when England lose

10:27

big games or games at all, it's

10:29

often been because they've been

10:32

quite tentative at the breakdown or they've been

10:35

sort of bullied a bit in that area or outmaneuvered

10:38

however you want to put it. And

10:40

they just got on the wrong side of the referee. And this was them

10:43

taking that into their own hands. Lors

10:45

was fantastic. Itoji was fantastic. And

10:49

I know you've written about the

10:52

refereeing decisions, Colsey and how, I'd say,

10:54

Naiseleiou was pretty gutted at the end

10:56

of the game. But I genuinely think that

10:58

that was a seriously frenetic breakdown

11:01

battle. And it was reasonably even,

11:03

you know, Fiji did get some calls

11:06

their way over the

11:08

course of it. But just how

11:11

aggressive England were there was really, really good. And

11:13

as I say, they won it twice. They got

11:15

to 24-10 up, had a bit of a stumble, lost

11:18

all momentum. When Patitu

11:21

went over, it was looking pretty

11:23

hairy for them. But then they righted themselves

11:25

again and came through. And

11:27

that's what

11:28

you just have to do in knockout games often,

11:31

as players will say. You have to win it more than once. Yeah,

11:34

I'm not giving them enough credit really with that introduction.

11:37

They did actually do very well in the final 10

11:39

minutes to regather their composure

11:42

and to kind of settle things down.

11:45

The drop goal was actually very well executed. I

11:47

think we were watching

11:50

just outside the Stadté France, went with Charles and in

11:52

a room full of sappers and

11:54

a few French people. And when Farrold kicked the drop goal,

11:56

I think everybody was sort of like, oh,

11:58

yeah. It's

12:00

a very sensible decision in

12:02

in terms of ripple a ripple of applause It

12:05

was really funny being in the

12:08

being in the ground So Farrell got booed during

12:10

the warm-up as he's done ridiculously

12:13

over the over the last couple of months

12:15

or so and It

12:17

was and I think his first

12:20

couple of shots at goal when he sort of opted

12:22

to shoot to go for goal Got

12:26

a smattering of booze and as the game

12:28

went on every time you point of post There

12:30

was sort of more and more positive reaction

12:33

and it's all been Yeah this is it was like

12:36

people there was sort of realizing and then the but

12:38

some of the booze will have come from neutrals and Fiji

12:41

fans, I'm sure but it was like the England

12:43

fans there were realizing yeah, this is

12:45

actually our best shot of winning games that

12:47

this woke up and It

12:50

was him taking command of that the job goal. I don't

12:52

know about you live I was totally

12:54

foxed by it I thought that they were going to continue

12:56

going around the corner and I hadn't actually seen Farrah

12:59

come to the pockets like one point when sort

13:01

of Danny cares swiveled and positive back. That's

13:03

gonna no one. Oh, no It

13:08

was really yeah, but that was it's quite sharp

13:10

wasn't it and

13:11

Yeah, quite clinical. They completely did you hook

13:13

line and sink it. Yeah. Yeah I

13:17

mean, I think That was the

13:19

first drop-call attempt from England wasn't it since

13:22

the Argentina game. Is that right? And I think we're

13:24

gonna have to see it again this this

13:26

Sunday. I think I think it needs to be reversed reverse

13:28

They're Argentina best. I think if we're gonna see an upset,

13:31

don't they is that basically every time they get

13:33

what 40 meters out

13:35

Someone needs to be in the pocket Because

13:37

that's three on a serious on a serious

13:40

point regarding that because that was the one

13:42

thing We're talking about translated that

13:44

was the one thing when France were 25 19 up

13:46

and they were pressing in the second half I just

13:48

thought Somebody please take three

13:50

points somehow that someone knock over drop-off

13:52

somebody Just

13:55

to get beyond the score of South

13:57

Africa and and France didn't

13:59

and look what

14:01

I always think that that period and it's

14:03

always around or often around the

14:05

sort of end of the third quarter

14:08

into the fourth quarter isn't it and a team

14:10

will be sort of either on

14:12

the cusp of one score ahead or a cusp

14:14

of going two to three scores ahead and England

14:16

had it at 24-10 up and there was

14:19

a point where Farrell's long-range shot

14:21

dropped short and he just thought the

14:23

firepower that Fiji have got you want

14:26

to be three scores ahead you want to be 15 points

14:28

or more ahead and those are the times

14:30

and it's sometimes it must be very difficult for players

14:32

to sort of take a step back from

14:35

the moment that they're in but those

14:37

are the times when drop goals are sort of more valuable

14:41

than ever and that's what England did so well in that first game

14:43

against Argentina was just keep, just

14:45

don't get bored with it and there's a moment when

14:48

England were 15-3 up and Alex

14:50

Mitchell sends a box kick out on the full and then

14:52

Tom Curry can see the really

14:54

needless breakdown penalty.

14:57

Those are the areas where you just

14:59

can't get bored in knockout games and but

15:02

that's when the stress on you

15:04

just hammering home that game plan

15:07

relentlessly that's when the kind of I guess the stress

15:09

must feel and it's highest but no absolutely

15:11

I totally

15:13

agree with you Cozy. I think

15:15

that's going to be even more even more important this weekend

15:17

because from the way South Africa played against

15:19

France I mean I know they will change tax

15:22

slightly and they'll have a bespoke plan

15:24

for England but they just fed off they

15:26

just fed off French errors really honestly France

15:29

played all the rugby I mean you look at the defenders beat and I think

15:31

France are into the 40s South Africa around

15:34

12th you know France played

15:36

all the rugby but then South Africa

15:38

knew and just stuck in the fight and were patient and

15:40

patient and patient waited for France to make

15:42

a mistake and South

15:44

Africa capitalized and that's what will happen this weekend

15:47

unless England are 100% accurate

15:51

and whiter than white everywhere and they just have to

15:53

keep that concentration for a full 80

15:56

minutes they have to. This is a question

15:58

sort of tied to those French.

15:59

there is really kicking game charlie in the

16:01

way they went after i'm lose the at the

16:04

area when i'm

16:07

a will england keep smith

16:10

said sustain and nice

16:12

suit on the wings have a better kissy option

16:14

or they were they'll miss too worried

16:17

about being beaten to pay some the way by

16:20

cold the or nz the

16:22

you want to keep attorney my other how

16:24

are they gonna manage so it's spink indication

16:27

game but having enough speed to

16:29

cover as planned

16:31

i would say i

16:33

never for a minute so it for

16:35

disturbing job for from the city for

16:37

fiji gangs and of his tournament and

16:39

continue to win of course of i

16:41

wish i would reinstate ever at fullback

16:44

an attack at it daily has lately

16:46

defended quite well in this tournament and

16:48

i think jenny maes experience

16:51

as far as to this thing is is quite important

16:53

and and the big says to

16:55

me the coal and then sorry for them one

16:58

more thing having those three census

17:00

lots of say like in lawrence in the twenty three

17:02

is important sesame i think it comes

17:04

down said smith or forward

17:07

and

17:09

then stood days

17:11

gradually sony east and and a quite

17:13

good example was a think the first wales

17:16

and fuss was will not game they've used

17:18

him as a it's not just the sodas

17:20

and goalkeeper type

17:23

fullback to sodas and mop

17:25

up high balls from a position they teased him on the front

17:27

for a bit more as well i think that's gonna

17:29

be king and just putting that he air

17:31

is a truck south africa as you're right

17:34

south africa themselves used

17:36

successfully against france and that sounds

17:39

it isn't fair to say i'm

17:41

to penalise been england's best player

17:44

to this hooked up with a difference is he peed

17:46

sexy now consistently putting

17:49

in

17:49

i think of it as tightly fired

17:51

certainly when you when you add

17:53

to that that is basically play opposition

17:56

and are you can play number right base much noise

17:59

is vanessa We see him more

18:01

on the flank.

18:03

He was

18:05

excellent against Fiji, one of England's

18:08

best. I don't

18:11

think any of us would have necessarily had that at

18:13

the start of the tournament as a prediction. Certainly

18:15

not in the Six Nations, where he was dropped by

18:19

Borthwick for a Williamship of

18:21

Schemazit, after Scotland came,

18:24

the way he dropped him for the Wales Games, is that right?

18:29

He's been absolutely magnificent on the back row. I

18:34

would have started Billy Vunipolar at the start of the tournament. I still

18:36

think that potentially

18:38

at his best, when he's fully fit and firing, there's still

18:40

a space for Billy Vunipolar on that back

18:43

row, just

18:45

because of the ball-carrying ballast

18:47

that he gives to England. But certainly

18:49

at the minute, in terms of form, you can't look beyond

18:52

Ben Ellingham Bray. On

18:54

the kicking point, I think

18:56

something that's slightly

18:59

forgotten about is just how short

19:03

Chesson Colby and Kirtle Arendser are, in

19:05

comparison to Freddie Stewart and Johnny May and Elliot

19:07

Daly. That is somewhere where England

19:10

could properly get into them on Sunday. I

19:12

mentioned it in a piece on the website about slightly cushioning

19:15

at straws, but where England

19:17

could potentially harm South

19:19

Africa. I think Johnny May and Elliot Daly

19:21

are both excellent in chasing, attacking

19:24

boxkicks and reclaiming the ball. We

19:26

saw Johnny May do it brilliantly, ironically,

19:29

in the lost to Fiji in the warm-ups. I

19:32

think with those two and Freddie Stewart, that's somewhere

19:34

where England could really hurt

19:36

the spring box. That's just sort of easy

19:38

territory wins and easy possession wins as

19:40

well. It's going to be a game.

19:43

It's going to be tight. It's going to be cagey. It's

19:45

going to be a game where these small wins could

19:47

add up in something much bigger. I mean, we've just spoken

19:50

about how South

19:52

Africa calling a mark, sorry, calling

19:54

a scrum from a mark felt like a turning point in a

19:56

game. Well, there could be similar things

19:58

that happen on Sunday.

20:00

And I just wondered Charles,

20:04

in terms of how,

20:06

where that performance ranks as England's understating,

20:09

I think we've decided and saying that that is the best

20:12

performance they've produced so far. Are they

20:16

going to go into this as underlocks? And we'll

20:18

chat and we'll talk more preview-y

20:20

a bit later in the week, but just thinking in terms of,

20:23

there seems to be a real confidence to them

20:25

and a real steeliness. And the quotes

20:28

yesterday about Farrell and about Gens

20:30

say everyone wants us to lose.

20:33

Do you quite like the vibe that England are giving

20:35

off at the moment?

20:36

I certainly like the fact that they're not getting ahead

20:38

of themselves. I think that, I mean,

20:41

I don't think a team

20:43

coached by Steve Boffwick will ever get ahead of itself,

20:45

frankly. But

20:48

I do think that there's

20:51

no need for them this week to be

20:53

particularly punchy in the press, I don't

20:55

think, because, well, they might

20:57

say that they've got nothing to lose, but also at the same time,

21:00

there's no need to poke the bear this week. They're

21:03

underdogs. They could definitely go in and

21:05

surprise South Africa, sort

21:07

of a bit under the radar, maybe, and just

21:10

concentrate on themselves. A bit like England,

21:14

New Zealand, that victory in 2019, where

21:16

I think the playing fields were a little bit more level

21:18

between England and New Zealand in 2019. But

21:23

there was a sense of England

21:25

sort of seem very composed and concentrating

21:28

on themselves and believing that they could pull off an

21:30

upset without having to sort of get

21:32

into the opposition too much or talk

21:34

very much about sort of the

21:36

wider picture. I

21:40

don't think Ellis Gens is correct when he says that

21:42

everyone hates them. I think that's a little bit strong.

21:45

Hate is a very, very strong word. But

21:47

I certainly do think they are underdogs this weekend. And

21:49

maybe embracing that could work

21:52

in their favour.

21:54

but

22:00

we need to talk about France. So let's do that.

22:03

France

22:07

and Africa on Sunday night, what a napkin. Pleasure

22:10

to be there, to

22:12

be honest. It was an absolute delight. One

22:14

of the great games. Maybe

22:16

the best first half of rugby I've

22:19

ever seen. And I think a lot of people are in agreement

22:21

about that. We had six tries

22:24

in the first 30 minutes alone and they were like

22:26

two overweight boxers

22:28

doing at each other in just an

22:31

amazing, amazing contest.

22:35

Charles, how would you sum up the noise

22:37

in the stadium when France got those first couple of tries

22:39

to survive in the Péter-Mavacu? It

22:42

was unreal, wasn't it?

22:43

Absolutely incandescent. I mean, it

22:45

was breathtaking stuff. It was breathless. The game

22:47

was being played at such

22:50

a pace. Little did we know actually

22:52

at that time that it

22:54

was France's purple patch, basically

22:57

for the entire game. I

22:59

don't know if they scored more points, but that was where they had to

23:01

hammer home that advantage and were it not

23:04

for a very, very

23:06

dubious Ebonetsubeth, knock backwards

23:08

slash knock forwards, they

23:11

might have had an extra try and

23:13

conversion. But the

23:15

atmosphere was absolutely breathtaking,

23:18

spinting, all those words that

23:20

come out were all completely

23:23

justified on Sunday night. A

23:25

superb rendition of the Malthiers, although all the anthems

23:28

are still far too fast in terms of the

23:31

red dishes and the versions. So it gets all higgledy-piggledy

23:33

across the stadium, but yeah,

23:35

an absolutely phenomenal atmosphere. And the Springbox fans

23:38

and the Springbox team played their part too. This was not

23:40

just, well, I mean, obviously South Africa

23:42

won, so it clearly wasn't just one-way traffic,

23:44

one-sided, but even in terms of the

23:47

vibe in the stadium, it was

23:49

something real special. Listeners, Charles

23:51

has just pulled out like a presentation

23:53

behind

23:53

them showing how the XF

23:56

contact was forward and the various

23:58

angles and trigonometry. involved and

24:01

it looks very detailed Charles I don't

24:03

think it will change the outcome sadly.

24:07

Don't get me started on the Colby charge down.

24:10

Oh no we need that's honestly next on my

24:12

on my list of things to talk about so did

24:14

you think he was did you think he set

24:16

off early I saw

24:19

a one print share list I think it was claim on my Zellum and

24:21

put out a video

24:23

which I guess came from TF1 which

24:25

sort of showed the

24:27

sort of split second where Colby started moving

24:29

and Ramos kind of shuffled his

24:31

feet or shoulders and and

24:33

I thought it was too too tight

24:36

to rule out the conversion or to say

24:40

the charge down was legal Charles what did you think?

24:42

No I'd agree with you

24:44

Colzy I'd agree with you all I would say is my

24:48

annoyance was more and frustration was

24:50

more with the fact that I don't think it was checked or at least

24:52

if it was it was very subtly checked

24:54

in the background and we weren't made aware of it the

24:57

tier that's like 100% in these matches

24:59

the sort of thing that the TMO should be checking and

25:02

if the TMO did check it I

25:04

agree that I don't think there was anything that's very clear and

25:06

obvious to overturn the decision but if they didn't check

25:08

it then that that's a problem because because that

25:11

was such a such a big moment again

25:13

these that these small moments where at the

25:15

time at the time I don't think you and

25:17

I

25:17

felt that it you

25:20

know that it was that crucial it felt it

25:22

felt sloppy from Ramos and superb from

25:24

Colby but I didn't feel like it

25:26

would decide the game and in the end it actually might

25:28

have done whatever no but it might have done. No

25:31

I was going to agree at the time it sort of felt

25:33

like a cool detail in a wild

25:35

first half if you told me that that would that

25:37

those two points denied would be the

25:40

difference between whether things go into

25:42

the semi-finals yeah I mean the

25:44

consequences were enormous. Charlie

25:47

talk to me about what

25:49

percentage of the hair on your body stood

25:51

on end when you saw Dami and went into call

25:53

for a mark and then and then say

25:55

yeah we'll have a scrum in our own 22.

25:59

I think my hand did inadvertently

26:02

go up to my mouth. I just thought it was, yeah,

26:05

as I say, the swagger on it, the

26:07

flex, it's sort

26:10

of become a term used in cricket a

26:12

lot, hasn't it? Alfering

26:14

someone when you get somebody to give

26:16

you, throw downs in the nets or something like that,

26:19

or don't take your helmet off when you score 100. It

26:22

was sort of, it had that vibe to it. But

26:25

yeah, just fantastic. It was just one of those,

26:27

one of the loads of things that you like the Etsebeth sort of

26:29

bats

26:31

backwards in inverted commas, and like the

26:33

Colby charged down that you hardly

26:35

ever see, you sort of know they're possible in rugby union.

26:38

You know that you can do that. If you're absolutely

26:40

nuts, you can call for a scam from a mark. But

26:44

actually to have it happen in a World Cup knockout game,

26:46

just yeah, and to have them all packed

26:48

into that first half, as you say, it's incredible

26:51

really. I have seen, well, there

26:53

have been charged down conversions and you do

26:55

see them. Yeah, yeah. Maybe like once a season,

26:57

maybe. And it's very rare at international

27:00

level, but what I would say is I don't think I've ever

27:02

seen a scrum call from a mark ever

27:05

in my entire life, I don't think. I

27:07

loved it. I think you could do it on Jonah Lomi Rugby

27:09

genuinely, because the options come up, the

27:12

options come up and you could press the square and

27:14

go and go and go. Triangle, triangle, yeah. It was a triangle

27:16

shot. The charging

27:18

down conversions. Do you remember Pete Ithaca

27:21

was in a barbarians game, was at Peter Stringer.

27:25

James O'Connor was kicking. Yeah, he

27:27

was kicking. He was cooking for a

27:29

chef. He was digging for Australia and he had

27:31

a bit of a shoulder

27:33

shuffle and Pete Stringer

27:35

just started running and then picked up the ball because

27:38

of the move.

27:40

Yeah, it was just before half time, but that's definitely a

27:42

thing and nobody knew what was going on there neither. We've

27:44

had a charge down conversion recently, haven't

27:46

we? I'm like, I'm mad. I feel like there's been

27:49

one within the last. You've had one over the weekend. No, as

27:51

in before, I feel like we've had

27:53

one within the last year. Am I just, maybe

27:55

it's some permission to bring in our auctionists

27:58

and stuck in my brain. Shout out to. I'm

28:00

Andrew Ford who does these fantastic

28:03

compilations on YouTube. I

28:05

think he's got a compilation

28:08

of Georgetown conversions, which is, yeah,

28:11

get on for that. That's fast work. Fair

28:13

play to him. It's

28:16

not the first time we've said this and it won't be the last, but

28:18

I thought South Africa's use of their bench

28:20

was particularly interesting

28:22

because you had Khaleesi off

28:25

on about 46 minutes for Deal

28:27

Fury, I think, coming on, who is the kind

28:29

of hybrid hooker, Pac Ro, and

28:32

then Libok and Reinach were off about

28:34

the same time for Declurk

28:36

and Pollard.

28:40

They'd gone back to a 5-3 split with South

28:42

Africa's power off the bench, but actually tactically

28:44

bringing those players on, given where

28:47

the game was poised at that time, was really

28:49

interesting. And it worked, didn't it?

28:51

It was nice because you had Declurk and

28:53

Pollard on to kind of see the

28:56

game out, so I'd scrap you back into the lead.

28:58

Yeah, I mean, they were amazing. Just the energy

29:01

that they brought, they completely outdid Francis

29:03

Bench. I think France probably

29:05

would regret going 6-2 maybe.

29:09

I'm not really sure, but I mean,

29:11

just because Fath brought so

29:13

much energy at the base and Harried and Harried, Koha

29:16

Smith also just absolutely superb.

29:18

Herr Heissenayman just putting

29:20

in shots. They were all absolutely awesome

29:23

to a man, beat up

29:26

their French equivalents who also

29:28

came off the bench. The front row did

29:30

a proper job at the scrum. You then

29:32

had Rader Wardy, the

29:34

French loose, coming off the bench. And

29:37

he was dynamic and he was busy, but ultimately

29:40

he's the player who knocked the ball on at the end to give

29:42

South Africa the win. So yeah, I mean, it

29:44

was absolutely a feather in

29:46

the cap for the spring box over

29:49

France. Did you go to Afrikaans school

29:51

yesterday after I left Jeevan Paris?

29:53

You've been working

29:54

hard on your pronunciation,

29:56

so I'm more forward. I'm just, well, I'm

29:58

following the... the spring box this week

30:01

so I'm just getting in the... You're just

30:03

trying to make friends. You're just

30:05

trying to get on the side. With

30:08

the Dupont comments, we mentioned them earlier,

30:13

I wonder how World

30:15

Rugby will deal with

30:18

that. Because it's just quite interesting because

30:20

it's Dupont, the face of

30:22

the tournament, very openly

30:24

criticising referee as bravely as we

30:26

see coaches do and coaches get

30:30

quite weird in the ear or punished for

30:32

referee criticism. I mean they kind of... Pardon

30:35

me, because I kind of have to do something, don't

30:38

I? And also, poor Ben O'Keefe,

30:40

he had a day where every

30:43

decision was scrutinised and he had to say hello

30:45

to me and Charles on Sunday morning when we walked

30:47

past him leaving our hotel as well. Maybe that's set

30:49

off the chain of the game. But on

30:51

the more serious point Charlie, what do you think they

30:54

do? Well,

30:56

I don't know where does the sport go

30:58

if the best... Wayne

31:01

Barnes, refereeing

31:03

South Africa is a thing now because of

31:05

what happened in Marseille last

31:07

November and the fallout from that after Razia

31:09

Rasmus' videos and the pylon

31:12

that ensued. Ben O'Keefe refereeing

31:14

France when it happens again is going to be a thing because

31:17

of how high profile

31:19

nature is and how he's been criticised. I

31:21

just think every game, the

31:24

margins are so small between the top

31:26

sides in the world and coaches

31:28

are coaching players to take

31:31

risks by being aggressive as possible on

31:33

the floor and in the contact area. Whether

31:38

you remember me helpfully informing Alan

31:40

Walters of the South

31:43

Africa, they go so, so

31:45

hard. They want to get in as many battles

31:48

as possible and officiating

31:52

all of those battles absolutely correctly is

31:54

impossible. So

31:56

I just don't, I think that there's, there's their

31:59

maintain. this false

32:01

impression of what is actually possible

32:04

for referees, how good

32:06

in verticality it is for them to be.

32:09

So yeah, I could, it's,

32:13

Daphan should get at least a private

32:16

talking to you about it. He would would

32:18

have been seriously emotional obviously given,

32:21

given just you know what was, what

32:23

France had built up and how much luck

32:26

they'd put in this World Cup and in him

32:28

personally. So emotions

32:30

would have been high but yeah it's unacceptable

32:33

really. Yeah.

32:35

Referees do have an impossible job but I mean are

32:38

we not all in agreement

32:40

that Mr O'Keefe didn't have

32:42

his finest evening? Not, I'm

32:44

not saying that it affected the result and I don't, and I'm not condoning

32:47

Antoine Dufont's comments because I don't think,

32:49

I don't think that he was the reason

32:51

that France lost but I don't think necessarily

32:54

Ben O'Keefe had his finest evening with

32:56

the whistle. Given it took me about five hours

32:59

to pick through England Fiji yesterday checking

33:01

all the key penalties, if you now do

33:03

it for France, New Zealand then present me

33:06

with

33:07

the, France to Africa and present me with

33:09

the evidence, then yeah.

33:11

What are the calls we're

33:13

talking about? What are the calls we're talking about? They

33:15

are the best. Just checking them, just checking

33:17

them. Well no, I just, I thought

33:19

also just the breakdown was a mess and

33:21

he let both teams just get away with, with

33:23

murder really. I thought that it

33:26

was just a complete mess in the breakdown on numerous

33:29

occasions. I thought that he

33:31

didn't manage the tackle rolling away very well, he

33:33

didn't manage, that was the main one to be

33:35

honest, it was the tackle rolling away and you could tell by

33:37

the end how frustrated Antoine Dufont

33:40

was with the South Africa tacklers getting in

33:42

the way of him wanting to play the ball quickly,

33:44

they were rolling into him but they were just, they

33:46

were just on the right line every single

33:48

time whereby it wasn't completely

33:51

obvious that they were infringing

33:54

and I think O'Keefe let them get away with it a

33:56

little bit. Maybe it was a tactical strategic

33:58

masterclass and they were gaming. system perfectly

34:01

and I don't doubt that that

34:03

was part of it. But

34:05

I think also there was the

34:08

pass from Faftee Clark into the prone French

34:10

player. That's

34:14

a penalty for me. I agree. I agree. I

34:16

completely agree.

34:19

I can't believe he let France get away with it. As in

34:22

every other day of the week, in

34:25

the prem that's a penalty to the attacking team

34:28

every day of the week. I just think there was a lot

34:30

of very strange decisions happening. We'll

34:33

find out probably today, maybe tomorrow,

34:36

whether he's got a semi-final. There's only one he can

34:38

actually have and it's in guns. We'll

34:41

see what the powers that be made

34:43

of his performance on Sunday night. Before

34:45

we think about refereeing moments, we need

34:48

to chat about the other quarter final on

34:50

Saturday and just what a belter

34:52

that was. Let's do that now. I

34:58

wonder when we look back on the tournament,

35:01

which actual game

35:03

we all think was better out of Ireland,

35:06

New Zealand and France, Africa, because

35:08

having been at both and having been so enamoured

35:11

with the first half of France, Africa, I'm already

35:13

leaning towards Ireland, New Zealand

35:15

just because it was extraordinary

35:18

on so many levels. I

35:21

would put it as New Zealand's best performance

35:23

since. I thought it was better than

35:25

the Ellis Park win last year,

35:29

which was really good.

35:32

Probably better than anything they produced at the

35:35

rugby world cup in 2019. I can remember

35:38

being really impressed with how

35:40

they played in that opening win over South Africa

35:42

and in the quarter final. I

35:44

would put it as their best win since the first

35:46

test against the Lions in 2017.

35:59

tactical curve ball, wasn't it? They sort of narrowed

36:03

things up and just pumped the lines through

36:05

the middle, which wasn't really expected. Got

36:07

super quick ball. Aaron Smith was amazing. They

36:11

were very good. They showed

36:13

a little, little flashes of that's

36:16

of how clinical and how clever they were

36:18

off the back of kicks against South Africa

36:21

in the rugby championship in Auckland.

36:24

But I think as far as a sustained

36:26

effort on both sides of the board as well, I've seen

36:28

Bernard Jackman make the point that a

36:30

lot of teams have gone after Ireland during this winning

36:33

run in one specific area and maybe got a little

36:35

bit of pain. New Zealand went

36:37

after them in a kind of load of different ways.

36:39

So with a short kicking game with the attack off the

36:41

back of that, and then also just relentlessly

36:43

defensive breakdown, which really rattled

36:46

Ireland. And normally if a team

36:48

does that for a little bit against Ireland, then Ireland

36:51

are good enough to make, to make

36:53

their attack click and, and get a couple

36:55

of tries to give them breathing

36:57

space when, when they're, when

36:59

they're elapses from the defence, but it was just a kind

37:02

of all out 80 minute effort from New

37:04

Zealand in defence, which was phenomenal.

37:07

Charles, what a statement before, from

37:10

South Kane, Gilbert's captain, who's kind

37:12

of selection

37:13

that had been discussed in the build

37:16

up, would they go with the more athletic, would

37:18

they go with Kane, but his kind of, his

37:21

work rate in his craft and he more

37:23

than, than showed why he was the right

37:25

selection over so flag-citedly.

37:27

Oh yeah, egg on my face totally,

37:29

because I think on the pod last week or the week before

37:32

I was suggesting that Delta properly

37:34

you should start at seven and then you should have

37:36

Kane on the bench and make RD captain

37:38

and yeah, maybe he heard me, probably

37:40

didn't and proved

37:43

me completely wrong on Saturday night because he was the best

37:45

player on the park. I thought absolutely

37:47

unbelievable some of the shots he was putting in, there was one

37:49

on Doris in the

37:51

first half, there was that one where he came flying across

37:53

to Chuck

37:56

Keenan in the second half that were just, that

37:58

made the structure in their tracks. And

38:01

he was just a menace at the breakdown. Him and

38:04

Adi Sarveia just dovetail beautifully

38:06

in defence and really, really disrupted

38:09

Ireland, really rattled Ireland. And

38:11

then you've got the sort of the power and the dynamism

38:13

of Shannon Frizzell at six. And if they carry

38:16

on playing like that, then it's going to take a really good

38:18

team. Given how crucial the back

38:20

row unit is in modern

38:22

rugby, it's going to take a really, really good team to stop

38:24

them

38:25

from lifting another world

38:27

title. Foster was quite interesting

38:29

afterwards, wasn't he? Because he sort of suggested that Frizzell

38:32

had been good, but maybe not quite playing to

38:34

his full limit. So it does

38:36

make you, it makes him interested to see what

38:38

you can get from Frizzell

38:41

at playing his maximum with

38:43

Kane playing like that with Adi Sarveia just

38:45

being, it's just so much fun

38:48

to watch on both sides of the ball with the turnovers he makes

38:51

and the carries he can offer

38:53

out wider, those wider channels. I was so impressed,

38:55

I went back through the tape on

38:58

Sunday morning to look at what Kane had done

39:00

and you're right Charles, they do dovetail

39:02

so well because so often it would be one

39:05

would be exactly and then one would be ready to jack

39:07

it all in. You had situations where Ian

39:10

Henson sort of carried

39:12

in the two of them and Paul

39:14

Kuger-Keaton was trying to get

39:16

Kane and Sarveia off of rock. I just thought,

39:18

oh bless you, you're never going to be

39:21

able to sort of remove those players

39:23

in that situation. No, I was impressed,

39:26

he had the most tackles, 22, 20 tackles,

39:29

maybe not the most important intervention ever gained

39:31

because that belongs to Jordy

39:33

Barrett, stocking a mall. Charlie,

39:35

I mean he's such a big figure, physical

39:39

presence now used in that title, but

39:41

that seems as though they had

39:43

really practiced that with him in that role

39:46

trying to get under those malls and it worked

39:48

perfectly.

39:49

Yeah, Mwanga was in there as well, wasn't he? A

39:52

huge, huge moment and that's, yeah,

39:56

I've seen the whole, did Ireland

39:58

choke sort of been banded

40:00

around. I don't think they were at their best

40:04

and New Zealand exploited that but that

40:07

just shows how small the margins

40:09

were, right?

40:11

It was actually critical I thought looking

40:13

back that it felt important at the time

40:15

that New Zealand because they were cagey at the start.

40:18

They sort of escaped their half and

40:21

then got 3-0 up and then

40:23

went, you know, 96, went 13 with

40:25

that fantastic try from Lester Feinganukui.

40:29

Yeah, that felt very, to

40:31

get that buffer against

40:33

a team that hasn't let alone winning

40:37

a quarterfinal, they haven't led in a quarterfinal,

40:39

a World Cup quarterfinal since 1995. That's

40:41

a heavy psychological burden and then the

40:44

sort of little errors that came later. So

40:46

for instance, Connor Murray, Connor

40:49

Murray's obstruction penalty, Kaitlyn

40:52

Dorris dropping a dropout

40:55

map. The Sexton penalty missed.

40:57

And then the Sexton penalty was the other one

41:00

I'm thinking of. Those

41:02

errors looked like a

41:05

bit of jitter settling

41:07

in, having set that for Ireland

41:09

to work their way up the pitch brilliantly

41:13

and have that faith in their phase play to go 37

41:15

phases and they so

41:18

nearly did it. I genuinely, I

41:20

was like you, Colby, you mentioned your heart rate at the start.

41:23

God knows what mine was. It was rattling around

41:25

for sure. Yeah,

41:30

I was just thinking about the jitters and also

41:32

that crazy Gibson pass, sort

41:34

of looking to the wing that Aaron Smith picked off

41:36

as well, which could have been, could

41:38

have gone the other way if it hadn't been for a very timely tap-tack.

41:42

We'll talk more

41:42

about Sexton in just a sec, but he's

41:45

quite afterwards I thought was really interesting about the sort

41:47

of tone of the game and how the

41:49

All Blacks tries and sort of comes like

41:52

sack of punches essentially because it had been when Ireland

41:54

had sort of just scored or they'd

41:56

just got a bit momentum. And the whole game

41:58

felt like Ireland were just going to get it.

41:59

there

42:01

eventually the cat because

42:03

it is it was swiftly movies

42:06

defensive lapses and it

42:08

never happened i was i was fascinated by how

42:10

we never got that shows have as

42:12

you can the chose smith elephant was

42:15

was a factor in it that the will do the job

42:18

is very well worth it and it's have had

42:21

such as an air of it as smith so

42:23

as stripe play with which usually

42:25

inside get it out how much did

42:27

his had to it's tell them the steady thick

42:30

are ya fake highly i mean also as

42:33

as chalice touchdown i think those chips of the software

42:35

clearly i expected this short

42:37

trips from for biden bar and from from

42:39

a smaller what failure or

42:41

a very of so deliberate tactics

42:43

to drive get in behind islands are trying to

42:46

transport but defensive line speed

42:49

ah on the other words they

42:51

what they got in behind that the different from

42:53

football it was that it formed apart that very

42:56

positive first awful them or

42:58

that in the second half a stun them with that

43:00

the f sister lived for the bottom half

43:02

way up that try to from them

43:05

for the where was your try wes wanna

43:07

or think that been building from those

43:09

chips over the top i think the just

43:12

had to flee ever is defending a get smaller

43:14

was caught see mine's because he was wary

43:16

of more that would fall into hands with jordan

43:18

of is in such showed of the much if i ever again

43:20

so i think he was just coins three minds

43:22

of stuff for is a small i'm going to tip

43:25

over here for jones who chases and

43:27

is he going to hit you're not as inside

43:29

of in the end he did neither any sort debate

43:31

with buoyancy runs and when himself and it

43:33

wasn't a sort of missed tackle as it were

43:35

from from poor technique it was that

43:38

i don't think he caught red clay

43:41

didn't read what was happening because of the alley what

43:43

have it done with the tips of it's off that doubts

43:45

that seat of dot the they punched in the arse mines

43:47

and from that it was a buzz of was marvelous

43:49

marvelous schools that

43:52

my favorite tropic game and them yeah

43:54

i mean to a church missing prince all over to mean

43:56

subs of the that the tactics of from where it came from

43:58

the strategies And him knowing

44:00

this Irish team, not quite

44:02

as well as some people have suggested, I don't think, because

44:05

obviously it's developed and metamorphosed

44:07

a lot, but his knowledge of how they

44:10

play and how they want to play and his knowledge of how Andy

44:12

Farrell coaches, because he was there with him

44:14

with Ireland, certainly would have played a

44:17

massive part in that victory.

44:19

If we get a New Zealand-South Africa final,

44:22

don't play the game, because

44:24

you don't need to. Just do a Colby-Will Jordan

44:27

sprint across the field and see who

44:29

wins and decide it that way. Jordan

44:31

is fast. And

44:34

Colby going

44:37

like Porto the Impenetrale and turns and catch

44:39

Colby for that, for the Jessica Kielkic.

44:42

Colby's trying to just let the pennant, it was like you're quick

44:44

and you are nowhere near what Colby's

44:46

doing. Yeah, that acceleration

44:49

isn't it, it's the turn of pace. Yeah, just extraordinary.

44:52

Just to finish up the game, quickly

44:55

on the All Blacks and then on Ireland, on the All Blacks,

44:58

Charlie, have

45:00

they, I wonder

45:02

if they can replicate the intensity of that performance one

45:04

week on, because they sort

45:06

of fixed everything that went wrong against France in the Open

45:09

Open, that they had the fast start, except this time they kept

45:11

going, whereas this time they

45:13

had the fast start and they were able to stay ahead and keep finding

45:15

ways to score. Can

45:18

you replicate that again a week

45:20

on in a semi-final?

45:23

I'd be incredibly impressed for a few

45:25

reasons. I've just checked and you can get one to four

45:27

on a New Zealand South Africa final and

45:29

England Argentina final is 40 to one,

45:32

which is quite something. But

45:38

it's a really interesting question

45:40

because the All Blacks were obviously

45:42

involved in a semi-final

45:45

in 2019 against England and England produced

45:47

a quite remarkable performance against them,

45:50

similar in as far as accuracy

45:53

and intensity as New Zealand

45:55

have just delivered against Ireland and Steve

45:57

Hanson tells the story of being in the sheds with England.

45:59

afterwards and saying make sure that's not your final.

46:03

And New

46:04

Zealand clearly won't need

46:09

that lesson because they've been around the block before and

46:11

they've delivered fantastic performances and

46:13

knockouts before. At the quarterfinal stage

46:15

you even think about how they pumped

46:18

France in 2019, sorry 2015. But to get to those levels again

46:20

as far as the

46:24

output

46:28

over the 80 minutes. They didn't commit. Ireland

46:30

didn't have one scrumpertit. They did

46:33

not have one scrumpertit in the game because

46:35

there were no, the

46:37

New Zealand handling was so slick and they knew

46:40

exactly when to sort of give

46:42

up and kick the ball.

46:44

That is incredible accuracy that is just so

46:47

difficult

46:48

to replicate on a kind of technical level.

46:50

Never mind the kind of emotional heights that they've got

46:52

to reach again to deliver

46:55

what they delivered in defence and as far as the

46:57

commitment side. So difficult.

47:00

Yeah. And Charles, one for you. You've

47:02

written about the kind of the rebuild

47:04

ahead of Ireland. How often

47:07

yet another quarterfinal

47:08

exit

47:11

because of the quality

47:13

of the team this time. You can always barely believe it. Just

47:15

give me a summary of how,

47:18

who is basically going sort of

47:21

straight away that we know. I mean, Keith Hills and Johnny

47:23

Sexton are retiring, but who else is probably going to

47:25

be at the picture by the time we get to Australia

47:27

in 2027?

47:29

Well I mean, that's all we know for certain.

47:32

Peter Romani after the game was a husk

47:34

of a man to be honest and

47:38

was asked about his future and he just said he didn't know.

47:40

I think there's probably

47:42

about a third. Obviously

47:45

we don't know for certain and players are playing longer

47:47

and longer and he looked at Sexton at 38 although

47:49

I do think he's the anomaly and not

47:51

the rule. I

47:54

reckon about a third of that starting 15 will

47:56

make fitness permitting and form

47:59

permitting Australia's 2027, which means

48:01

that there's two thirds of that starting 15

48:04

up for grabs, it might be that the players

48:06

who are currently there make it and they

48:09

if they sort of have longer careers, but

48:12

they might need to

48:14

tap into this fantastic talent

48:16

conveyor belt that they've got an island and

48:19

you know, they're in they're in such they're in such

48:21

good shape as a rugby nation at the minute, we've,

48:24

we've written a lot about that. There's a lot about that on the

48:26

on the Telegraph website, just like France, they're the two

48:29

nations who are nailing it domestically

48:31

in the minute and a sort of streamlining

48:35

their domestic scene to ensure

48:38

that there's a lot of

48:40

success international level and while they have both

48:42

lost quarterfinals, there's still been a lot of success

48:45

international level. And

48:47

the future is very bright, you know, they were the two sides in the

48:50

in the under 20s final this year.

48:53

If there if there is an Irish rebuild, it I

48:55

don't think it will be a particularly arduous task. And

48:59

I'll be back there. I can't see them.

49:02

I mean, I wouldn't pay any money on it just because

49:04

of the the history of it. But I

49:06

would be very, very surprised if they weren't semi

49:08

finalists in

49:11

The two final points on Ireland. What an

49:13

amazing tournament, but the yakis had just

49:16

think he's been utterly

49:18

outstanding. We talk about moments in the France

49:21

Africa game where you kind

49:23

of you wrote your seat and going, well,

49:26

like, but the yakis try not on

49:28

on Saturday night when he started stepping inside. It's just

49:30

all Wow. But as a player who

49:33

is both very talented, but it's just using

49:37

confidence and form and

49:40

sort of belief in himself and what he can do.

49:42

I just thought that was that was wonderful. And

49:44

I really hope it's hard because you know,

49:46

he's out in a quarterfinal with Ireland, but I

49:48

really hope he's in the play of the

49:50

tournament chat when we finish. And the

49:52

final word has to get to Johnny Sexton.

49:56

The press conference afterwards, we were both

49:58

in their child's about two rows from the

51:59

First of all, Paul D, I think I called

52:02

the worst ever in tournament history, which

52:04

is quite punchy because he has now got two

52:06

semi-finals. Argentina was so

52:08

bad that they should have been

52:10

disqualified for how bad they were against England. They

52:13

were just shocking, weren't they? We

52:16

said at the time that was just an

52:19

all-time implosion. So

52:22

fair play. But no, I said earlier

52:24

in the pod, I was just really… The

52:28

question was, I think in the press of Ticheka, tell

52:32

us about this turnaround. And he said, well, there hasn't

52:34

been a turnaround. There's just been a gradual improvement.

52:37

And if you remember, they had that week off, didn't they, after

52:39

that England game. So they just timed…

52:44

They've done a classic thing

52:46

where I was dubious about people

52:48

calling them a tournament team because they weren't very

52:51

good in 2019 either. But

52:54

they've shown they've got an older

52:56

profile probably this year, but

53:00

with players that haven't played. So

53:02

those players became more comfortable in… And

53:05

the term Ticheka used to

53:07

describe the England game was, it was a game where

53:09

our players could understand

53:11

what knockout rugby was without

53:13

the danger of being knocked out, which

53:15

was kind of… I think I've kind of got what he was

53:18

saying. afterwards from the players, Colsey,

53:21

sort of a bit of defiance, a

53:23

bit of nobody believes in us,

53:26

which as we know is really a really powerful thing.

53:29

It's good to say we found that before.

53:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the pool of the

53:34

underdogs just

53:37

rolling on with that message. Maroney,

53:40

I spoke to Mathias Maroney who was… As

53:43

you said, did you feel like you've got nothing to lose? And he said,

53:45

no, we feel like we

53:47

really want to get to a first final in Argentina

53:50

history. And he said we fight for

53:52

every moment, which Julian

53:55

Montoya, he's

53:58

kind of lived and breathed that as they're kept. in.

54:00

And that's what they did, they steadily overhauled Wales.

54:02

I thought Wales should have been out of sight in

54:05

the first half hour, but

54:07

they left the door open and Argentina were good

54:09

enough to get back in it. I mean, in

54:11

the end, wasn't it the most comfortable and

54:14

convincing of the quarterfinal? I mean, I don't

54:16

think Argentina would necessarily describe it as comfortable,

54:18

but I think as a neutral, which do

54:21

we think was most convincing of the four victories?

54:23

I think, which is very

54:25

surprising from where it was at half time. The

54:28

cars were still in it until the interception.

54:31

And it was, I actually,

54:33

I've got terrible, I'm a terrible judge for

54:35

this. Games I'm at, I think I just get so

54:37

caught up in. I thought the first half

54:40

of Wales, Argentina was really,

54:43

it was awesome. It was really sort of cut

54:45

and thrust stuff. Obviously there were mistakes and

54:47

clearly there were two sides that aren't

54:50

probably as good overall as the sides on the other side

54:52

of the draw. But it was really

54:54

interesting and Wales, the

54:57

pass from, yeah,

55:00

Jack Morgan seemed to sort of slow down time to

55:02

step. I think it was Cabeli on the left

55:04

edge and he went through and Gareth Davis

55:07

running a train, not a support line spills that pass,

55:09

which is a big jarring moment because

55:12

it doesn't, they watched it back and it doesn't look like

55:14

it on the telly pictures, but

55:17

he's in so much space when he does that.

55:19

Then when George North goes through

55:22

on the other side and throws a pass to

55:24

Adams, that's dropped, Gareth Davis is there again.

55:26

So that's a seven point spill as

55:28

well. And at that stage and

55:31

with the line out areas as well that Wales had, they

55:33

just, they just should, they should have been

55:35

further ahead than 10 nil. And then to,

55:38

for it to be 10-6 at half time was

55:40

nuts really. Warren Gautam was pretty,

55:43

he volunteered, referee chains,

55:45

poor Jack O'Piper as a reason,

55:48

but I think he, I

55:50

think privately he'd be probably looking, he'd do well

55:52

to sort of look a little bit in the mirror

55:54

at how those chances were missed and how Wales

55:57

just failed to sort of make that a sell.

56:00

dependency pay. Did he blame the

56:03

sort of refereeing and the officiating

56:05

or did he blame the sort of disruption caused

56:08

by the change? Right. The disruption

56:10

caused by the change and I asked him

56:13

to elaborate and just said, look,

56:16

how disruptive is that when you

56:18

have prepared all

56:21

week for all sorts of things? Because we

56:23

know that people

56:25

are thinking about not just referees interpretations

56:27

over breakdown and everything like that. It's stuff like that, how

56:30

the cadence with which they're calling in scrums. It's

56:32

so, the detail is incredible. You

56:35

remember last tournament, South

56:37

Africa knew that Jerome Garza is like

56:39

being complimented on physical appearance.

56:41

You know, those are the things people are thinking about.

56:43

So it can be quite disruptive.

56:46

However, you know, the same thing happened

56:48

to Argentina and they, by

56:51

the end, they were comfortably on top

56:53

as far as the breakdown, which obviously goes a long way.

56:56

They're deciding these games and they just

56:58

adapted to what was real chaos.

57:01

Just that a bit better. And just to finish this section,

57:04

mention Dan Bigger,

57:06

a fantastic Wales career. I think

57:08

he's all of those players who we will

57:10

look back on him in maybe a few years time

57:12

and he'll be appreciated a lot more for what he's

57:15

done for Wales. I know he

57:17

can rile a lot of people up, but

57:20

as in who wants to point Wales with Harry Place,

57:22

I think he's so important from

57:25

a perspective of what he offers in terms of leadership

57:28

and also what's the creativity of that milking edge.

57:30

So enough praise for that. And

57:33

I think Wales will really miss the

57:35

kind of the leadership, the passion

57:37

that he's brought to another 10 jersey.

57:41

He was always done

57:43

with fame praise a bit. I remember Chris

57:46

Boyd, his head coach

57:48

at Northampton or director of Robert Northampton, whenever

57:51

he'd play well for Saints, people had asked

57:53

Boyd about how good Bigger had been and he'd always

57:56

say he's the best in the world at what he does.

57:58

And he was like,

57:59

So you're sort of admitting that he's got these

58:02

limitations. And yeah, and

58:04

I just love players of any sport like that

58:06

who maybe have things

58:08

that they can't do but make the absolute most of

58:11

the things they can do. And D'Ambig is certainly being

58:13

one of those guys. Fantastic

58:15

to talk to as a journalist too, which always

58:17

kind of bumps him up the rankings, doesn't

58:19

it? Yeah, he does. But no, he's,

58:22

but I, you know, I've worn his

58:24

heart on his sleeve and an absolute

58:26

fantastic, fantastic servant. He's

58:28

a ferocious competitor. You'd want him on your

58:31

side. And

58:33

a supreme individual rugby player,

58:36

I would say on an individual level. And that's not

58:38

to take anything away from him. I just think that

58:40

the things that have made him great are

58:43

sort of embracing that individuality. I don't

58:45

necessarily think that he was somebody

58:47

who had the keys

58:50

to completely unlocking a

58:52

full back line necessarily and working

58:54

in a very fluid mid field. But

58:57

then he brought strengths in other areas. You know,

58:59

he would clutch, goal kicker. He

59:03

was there for the big moments when you needed him.

59:05

And I think Wales will certainly miss that aspect

59:08

a lot. And that leadership and everything

59:10

that comes with that, almost the intangible stuff.

59:13

Yeah, they certainly will. So it's been going big,

59:15

going to two fantastic towns who

59:18

achieved great success for their countries. Right, let's

59:20

finish up by having some of your questions. Okay,

59:25

a couple of questions to finish up today. We've had one

59:27

from Progessive Rugby, the

59:30

welfare group who asked about Fred Stewart.

59:32

Now he's sort of started all the pre-war games. He started

59:35

loads of matches and now he's, he

59:38

was actually on the team against the

59:41

PEG on Sunday. Charlie,

59:43

we touched on this earlier. You sort of

59:45

said his tolerance is not over. It's

59:47

not really, it wasn't really about work though, was it? It

59:50

was about tactics. And we're expecting him to be

59:52

back inside probably on

59:54

the weekend.

59:56

Yeah, or certainly right in the

59:58

mix. We just know... I think that's

1:00:01

pretty good. We'll know Steve Borthwick-Smith as

1:00:04

well. And other most players in that squad, he

1:00:06

tailed his game plans to opponents

1:00:09

and he took Taylor selections to opponents.

1:00:11

They're all big calls at this stage, obviously, and they're

1:00:14

going to be made across all four teams. As

1:00:16

you mentioned, there, Argentina at fly-off, what do they do? It

1:00:19

never seemed like a permanent, never seemed like

1:00:21

a big indictment

1:00:24

of how Stewart has been playing necessarily,

1:00:27

just more of a reflection of what he

1:00:29

wanted for the Fiji game. The

1:00:32

question is, I

1:00:37

don't think that was a factor in

1:00:39

their thinking. He did play all of the warm-up games. Maybe

1:00:42

that was a bit of a double bluff going on as

1:00:45

far as how they were then going to bring through

1:00:47

Marcus Smith as an option there. But

1:00:52

he did miss the Chile game, didn't he? He

1:00:54

wasn't in the 23 at all, and then they

1:00:56

had another week off.

1:00:57

Sorry, they had a week off

1:00:59

off of that game, didn't they? I

1:01:01

would say it wasn't to do with workload

1:01:03

at all. We don't

1:01:06

know about the dangers to cast aspersions

1:01:08

on how teams are managing workload, but it certainly

1:01:11

doesn't seem to have been a problem. It's definitely

1:01:13

the Taylor School trend that I didn't see coming Smith

1:01:15

at full back and Stewart out at 23, given

1:01:18

how much we talked about last year. Just

1:01:22

another question from Dan, talking about

1:01:24

how much England's play really

1:01:27

hinges on the Scrum half and that's very

1:01:29

likely to target them. Charles, who would you start

1:01:31

at the Scrum half? It's been Alex Mitchell

1:01:33

now for a few weeks, but Dan and

1:01:35

Keir's little shop has to leave with these to come on.

1:01:37

Yes, but I'll keep it the same. We

1:01:40

talk about starters and finishes and it being

1:01:42

an 80-minute match and

1:01:44

different roles for different

1:01:46

players in the same position who are playing at different

1:01:49

periods of the game. I'd keep Alex

1:01:52

Mitchell on for 50-60 minutes and then bring

1:01:54

Danny Keir on against some slightly

1:01:57

more tired legs when the game's broken

1:01:59

up a little bit more. and to add a little bit more

1:02:01

zip maybe, and a bit more of a threat

1:02:04

around the fringes and to put in those

1:02:06

lovely attacking kicks, those lovely dinks that he's

1:02:08

been putting in. And yeah, I think they've

1:02:10

got the balance right at the minute. I think there's always a

1:02:12

temptation with scrum halves. We've

1:02:14

said this before on the pod, I think there's always a temptation

1:02:17

with scrum halves when the replacement

1:02:20

comes on and shines against

1:02:23

tired legs. And we all sort of go, oh,

1:02:25

you know, he should be starting because he's

1:02:28

come on and he's running rings around them in the 70th minute,

1:02:31

75th minute, and the incumbent, the

1:02:35

starting scrum half wasn't able to

1:02:37

do that. And the caveat is always because, you know,

1:02:40

that's the start of the match against fresh legs when

1:02:42

they're just trying to break the team, break the opposition

1:02:45

down, work them out a little bit. I

1:02:47

think they've got the balance right. I'd stick with Alex Mitchell. I

1:02:49

think they're dovetailing really nicely. I'm gonna stick with Alex

1:02:51

Mitchell and bring Kher on in the second half. Do

1:02:54

not rule out Ben Young starting. That's

1:02:57

all I'll say. Hasn't had

1:02:59

a start. This tournament, I don't think, K-Mon was very

1:03:01

good against Argentina, K-Mon against Chile.

1:03:05

That is the sort of curve ball that I

1:03:07

think Steve Borkuk is capable of throwing.

1:03:10

He's got to think about how aggressive

1:03:13

Foster Klerk or Reinach will be around the

1:03:15

Ruck defensively and they just might want to

1:03:18

go Young's and then Kher.

1:03:21

Don't know for sure, but I can

1:03:23

feel it in my bones. We do like a spicy,

1:03:25

spicy semi-final curve ball. That

1:03:28

sounds possible. Right, that's it for today. Thank

1:03:30

you, Charlie. Thank you, Charles. And I'll see

1:03:32

you both again later in the week when we have our little special

1:03:34

bonus episode from Paris with the three

1:03:37

of us previewing how England did

1:03:39

get on against South Africa and also a

1:03:41

bit on New Zealand Argentina as well, coming

1:03:43

through in the semi-final week. Until

1:03:46

then, you can keep up with loads of content

1:03:48

on the Telegraph for every website from all of us and all of our

1:03:50

writers and also in the newspapers. So please

1:03:52

have a look out. You'll band find

1:03:54

something you like as we build up to two massive games

1:03:56

this weekend. But until then, from

1:03:59

all three of us, thanks again. goodbye we'll see you in Paris