0:00

The Telegraph

0:03

Podcasts

0:09

Evening

0:15

everybody from a very wet, windy

0:18

Paris. We're delighted to be hosted

0:20

for this podcast special in

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the Old Metro Bar by Pastor,

0:25

our good friend of the Telegraph Republic Podcast, as

0:28

we look ahead to South Africa against England on Saturday

0:31

night. Delighted to be joined by

0:33

Charlie Morgan. Hi Charlie. Hi Colesley.

0:36

Also here with Charles Richardson.

0:38

Hi Colesley. And a special guest, the

0:40

Chief Sports Writer of the day at the Telegraph, Olly Brown. Hi Olly.

0:42

Hi Ben. Olly,

0:46

how do you feel about England going into this week? It's

0:48

quite an interesting vibe around the team.

0:51

You were there at the press conference earlier. What did you

0:54

make of them? I

0:56

don't feel especially confident. I always

0:59

feel there's a slight air of joylessness

1:02

around England. But

1:05

C. Borthwick wasn't giving

1:07

a huge amount away. But he

1:09

seemed to think that there were ways

1:12

in which they could trouble South Africa.

1:14

He seemed very effusive about

1:17

Freddie Stewart and his composure

1:19

under the high ball. We've

1:22

seen England defy expectation

1:24

before. Obviously,

1:26

we think of four years ago. And 2019

1:29

seems to be the subject that England

1:31

are prohibited from speaking about at

1:33

all, because obviously rugby moves on a lot in

1:36

four years. But they

1:38

confounded

1:39

every assumption against

1:42

the All Blacks then. And

1:44

they seem to believe that they can do the same

1:46

again as the only unbeaten team. Sitting

1:49

on the fence, Olly, tell us what you really think. An

1:51

air of joylessness ahead of a World

1:53

Cup semi-final. I was going to say that's quite

1:56

a strong way in. And I like it, actually.

1:59

Eddie Jones four

2:02

years ago, a psychological masterclass

2:04

out in Tokyo. He was accusing

2:07

the Kiwi journalists of being fans with

2:09

laptops. He even

2:12

detonated a spying row while he was out there.

2:15

Crusher was chasing the All Blacks down the street as

2:17

well, wasn't he? Yeah, exactly.

2:19

I'm not sure Steve Boorfoot operates

2:22

from quite the same playbook, a

2:26

fairly faceless high performance centre

2:28

outside the periphery. It didn't

2:30

quite seem like the same

2:33

setting, but we are two days out from a

2:35

World Cup semi-final. There's no downplaying

2:39

that. And

2:41

for all the inscrutability

2:43

of Borkwick,

2:46

this is a

2:47

test of colossal magnitude, and England

2:49

seems to think that they have some tricks at their sleeve. They're

2:52

certainly going to find out very soon if they do. We

2:55

had lots of dices on the match in terms of

2:57

team selections. But Charles, I just want

2:59

to come to you for a bit of a

3:01

taste of what it's been like in Paris

3:03

the last few days. Since

3:05

I arrived Wednesday morning, you've been here all week, and I arrived

3:08

Wednesday morning, and there's been a

3:10

steady stream of rain ever since. And

3:13

that feels to actually reflect

3:15

the mood in the country after Sunday's defeat

3:18

to South Africa. How does

3:20

everyone seem to be coping with that? Well,

3:22

you chat to the French public here, you chat to the Prisians, you

3:24

chat to the host of the bar here in

3:26

which we're in and which we're recording, and it's just still

3:29

complete

3:32

disappointment, and they

3:35

can't believe it. They still can't believe that

3:37

the stars

3:39

had aligned. They believed for them to be

3:41

ground World Cup champions. They have the best player in the

3:43

world, the best league in the world, the best youth set up in the

3:45

world. They thought they had the best team in the world.

3:48

And they were stung by the reigning champions on Sunday night

3:50

in Paris. And really,

3:54

we could have been building up to the crunch. We've said

3:56

this, we could have been building up to a massive England V France

3:58

semi-final. the restaurant,

4:00

the bazai, which we're in now as good as it is, is

4:03

sort of half full and

4:06

we were debating earlier, weren't we, about, you know,

4:08

if it had been the crunch on Saturday night,

4:10

how much, how much, how much more bouncy

4:13

and jumping this place would be, and the

4:16

city, the rain hasn't helped, but

4:19

the city is flatter, the city is flatter and

4:21

the tournament is worse off for it.

4:23

Charlie, you are minutes

4:26

off the Eurostar and out of

4:28

a taxi, so you, so you're, you're

4:30

the latest person who's had boots on the ground

4:33

in England. What's the mood like?

4:35

So what kept me final on, on

4:37

Saturday? It's a

4:39

few, a few rungs up from Joyless

4:42

for sure, but it's kind of, it's, it's,

4:45

yes, I would say, I would say

4:47

subdued. I think England, England have been desperate to

4:49

go under the radar, have a native, this whole tournament and they've

4:51

managed to do that. It's kind of a tournament where

4:53

all four semi-finals are quite pleased with

4:57

themselves for sort of arriving at

4:59

this stage under the radar. I think that might change

5:02

over the next four to eight hours, seven to two hours,

5:06

but no, I'm, I'm, I'm fascinated as to

5:08

what Ollie, what Ollie mentions there, that how England

5:10

go about troubling this South Africa side, because

5:12

that's where they've got to start, and as much as Steve

5:15

Orsick isn't Eddie Jones in, in some

5:17

ways, he's not the same showman.

5:19

He probably doesn't have the media

5:21

kind of on tentix

5:24

as to what he's going to say next, but what he does, what he

5:26

does do is he tailor selections

5:28

to big games. He's done that again, which we'll get

5:30

into, and he's very, very,

5:32

very good at tailoring tactics also

5:34

to big games, and that's, that's what he's, that's

5:36

what we're about to, about to see on Saturday.

5:39

This isn't our first episode of the week, as you'll know,

5:42

we sort of recapped what happened with those two

5:44

epic quarterfinals last weekend, and had a long

5:47

chat about New Zealand, Argentina

5:49

as well, where we are just going to focus in this special

5:51

on, on Saturday night, how

5:54

England can beat South Africa. So without

5:56

further ado, let's dive into

5:58

it. Charles,

6:02

just to kick off if I come to you, so we've

6:05

had the teams are announced, so that's going to run unchanged.

6:07

England have made three changes,

6:11

one at Fullback which we kind of expected, we've

6:13

given the news around Marcus Smith and his concussion,

6:16

two in the pack, and I know that one

6:18

in particular has got us excited.

6:20

Tell us about Jo Marlow and him

6:22

coming in at Lusso Prop. Well,

6:25

on Monday I was given the slightly unenviable task

6:27

of writing a piece about how England

6:31

could possibly scale this mountain, how

6:33

they could defeat the Springboks against all odds,

6:35

and two of the things that I said

6:37

were that Freddie Stewart had to come back, which

6:40

he has done, and that Jo Marlow had to start. It

6:42

was only this morning really that we found

6:44

out that Marlow was in the mix to start,

6:46

at least, he had to come back in

6:49

to give, he's the best Scrimager in

6:51

that squad, and

6:53

we know that that is an area of real, real strength, of

6:55

world-class strength for South Africa.

6:58

In terms of the South Africa team

7:00

selection, I've been following them all this week, and

7:02

just on what Charlie said about horses, Steve

7:05

Borthwick tailoring selections

7:07

for specific opponents and horses for courses,

7:10

ironically this week South Africa have not done

7:12

that. The great strategists, the great

7:14

tacticians this week have

7:17

decided to go completely unchanged

7:21

because they felt that the starting 50 and

7:24

the bench, the bomb squad as they call them, is

7:26

completely settled and after such a

7:28

strong performance against France. I wonder

7:31

if that's an error, I wonder if that's an error

7:34

of complacency creeping in, especially

7:37

with the certain

7:39

selection quandaries that they

7:43

had, and especially the fact that they rarely

7:46

keep the same starting 15 for two years.

7:49

I think this is the second time in 64 tests

7:52

under Razny Erasmus and Jacques Nienaba

7:54

that they've named an unchanged side,

7:56

so it was it was okay just a surprise when I

7:58

rocked announcement

8:00

this morning to find an unchanged side and

8:02

I did wonder whether have

8:05

they believed their own hype too early almost

8:07

I'm not saying they have they're obviously still rank

8:10

favorites but you know there is always

8:12

that sort of thought in the back of the mind because it's

8:15

it's an 80 minute rugby match against with two very good teams

8:17

so it could you know South Africa are

8:19

favorites but stranger

8:21

things have happened just on the South

8:23

Africa press conferences for a bit of color

8:26

have they basically been in like a village hall or the

8:28

equivalent of quite a low

8:30

key setting but they've basically been in a village

8:33

hall red velvet trim

8:35

red velvet curtains and

8:39

seating there was some jazz music playing

8:41

on Tuesday as Razi Erasmus

8:44

emerged stage right to

8:47

as the pantomime villains when you veil what

8:49

he thought would be England starting 15 I mean it was

8:51

a great piece of sporting theatre really in

8:53

sporting psychology but

8:56

it yeah they're sort of

8:58

the jars it just

9:00

it doesn't it doesn't sort of juxtaposed very well

9:02

no it doesn't expose very well with the surroundings which

9:05

is it a nothing suburb

9:07

of the wider Paris region

9:09

it's very quiet and very residential

9:11

and then you have Razi Erasmus

9:13

strolling in on Tuesday afternoon

9:15

giving it big licks Oli and I meanwhile

9:18

today were at the Institute to Spore

9:20

or whatever at the full-time lives which I've just butchered

9:23

outside France we're just gonna hear the

9:25

audio for his people we're just talking about

9:27

how he sort of used the game and at

9:29

England's status as underdogs in this match

9:31

we've concentrated very much upon us what we've

9:33

done every single week how do we develop

9:36

and how do we progress as a team and

9:38

I think that's the central thing I think this team has

9:40

progressed and through each

9:43

each week we've had through this tournament we've built

9:45

and we've built and we've built and whatever

9:47

situation the players have found themselves in in the

9:49

game is the players have found a way

9:51

to get the result the one at the end of it and

9:54

we know this weekend is

9:56

different every game is different

9:57

but

9:58

I also know we've got a a great group of players

10:01

who care deeply about representing England.

10:04

I want to make sure the crew and their performance are

10:06

all proud of and our supporters are proud of on Saturday

10:08

night. That was Steve Borth from Save the Table. Oli,

10:12

that underdog tag, I

10:14

get the impression that England will actually not mind

10:16

one bit. I think Charlie actually did

10:19

earlier in the week. So Africa were about 13-point

10:22

favourites or something. So being

10:24

that far out of it,

10:26

that's who's England's entity? I

10:29

tasted a certain sourness in

10:31

the press conference on Sunday

10:34

night with Steve Borthwick. It was after

10:37

a lot of cordiality with the journalist,

10:41

he always started to

10:43

turn on us slightly. And basically,

10:46

you guys are Britoners all off and

10:49

we're in the semi-final. So we've at the very least

10:51

reached par for what everybody

10:54

expected of us. The one

10:56

area where I think Borthwick might spring

11:00

a surprise is he

11:02

is incredibly meticulous by a

11:04

reputation, filling all those copious

11:07

notebooks. And I think Ebonette

11:09

Stavrid said something earlier today that

11:11

he hadn't actually watched any

11:14

England games. You can't really imagine

11:16

that Borthwick would allow such a casual

11:19

preparation. Maybe

11:24

this is more mind games from the Springboks,

11:27

but I think this painstaking approach

11:29

of Borthwick might actually make the

11:31

scoreline on Saturday night closer than a

11:33

lot of people think. Absolutely.

11:36

And the draw has been spoken

11:38

about a hell of a lot. But what that means is

11:40

that it means, as Olly said, England have reached

11:43

par, but it means that they've also seen

11:45

this coming for a fairly long

11:47

way. I think they were fairly sure

11:49

that it would be... Clearly

11:51

there was a range of opponents that they could have played, but

11:54

they would have had plans for those teams.

11:57

I have a theory about how they're going to go about

11:59

it.

11:59

which is, which is,

12:01

they, we know from at the time, they really

12:03

studied how New Zealand went about beating South

12:06

Africa in Auckland at the start of the rugby championship

12:08

and that was by kicking off 10 a lot. I

12:10

think Alex Mitchell retaining his place in

12:12

the starting side is among the most interesting

12:15

things about that lineup because he's made

12:17

a few kicking errors. That could be

12:19

a little way to lure South Africa

12:21

into pressurizing Mitchell when actually a lot of the kicking

12:23

is gonna come off farrell and wider. I

12:26

think Stewart's return plays into

12:28

that because he's gonna be used on the front foot as opposed

12:30

to just in this defensive,

12:32

defensive mode and I think that's where they go.

12:35

I think they look to win that aerial battle

12:37

and go from there.

12:39

The student selection is quite interesting,

12:41

isn't it? Because I wonder if

12:43

Smith have been available,

12:45

whether they might have tried to make Stewart back anyway

12:48

on the wing just to add a bit more security to

12:50

the, to the back three under the kicking

12:52

area in particular because we saw, we saw France get

12:54

out of the area, didn't we, on Sunday

12:57

with what South Africa would do with

12:59

those crossroad kicks

13:00

and that was, that had a big impact on the game. So I wonder

13:02

if he would have gone to Stewart anyway.

13:06

The Marler one I love partly because the first thing made

13:08

me think of was Eddie Jones' book in 2019,

13:11

which came out what about 10 days

13:13

after the final or 12 days, it was fresh

13:16

off the printing presses where

13:18

he said, oh yeah, I should have picked Joe

13:20

Marler to start in the final against

13:23

South Africa. And you look at the South Africa back and actually

13:25

apart from Beast and Ludi

13:28

Argonov being there, same set of

13:30

players, same type of probably friends

13:32

about Herbert. Is

13:33

it wild to say that he might have been thinking of

13:37

the danger of having Cole on the bench in case

13:39

there was another early injury like there was in a 2019 final? Because

13:43

that really

13:45

exposed Dan Cole. I was going 75 minutes against

13:47

effectively two elite packs. And

13:50

that is not the case with Sinclair and Gens,

13:52

you've probably got two guys more suited to going

13:54

that distance. And we've

13:56

voted the idea and we're sort of joking while we're before.

14:00

if they do it the other way around. They can

14:02

leave out a South Africa's book ironically and go half

14:04

an hour for the starting. Well yeah,

14:06

or the Italy book. When they were actively

14:09

starting, obviously with South Africa the margin

14:11

between their starting and second choice is

14:13

so small, but with Italy where they were starting

14:16

their sort of genuine second

14:18

choice front row, letting them play the first half

14:20

an hour of the game when it's a little bit tighter and they're a little

14:23

bit fresher and bringing the first choice on

14:25

for the last 50. And it actually

14:27

didn't, it wasn't a disaster for them, you

14:29

wouldn't say. We've said that maybe they might

14:31

do that with Cole, they might do

14:33

that this weekend. Cole might play 30 minutes and then Sincla

14:36

comes up 10 minutes before half time and plays

14:38

the whole of the second half. And realistically

14:41

he's up there with one

14:43

of the best bench tight heads in the tournament.

14:46

Many teams with a better second choice tight

14:48

head than Carl Sincla.

14:49

You mentioned the second row selection as well

14:51

with George Martin over Ollie Chess and so

14:54

Paul Fries had a couple of things. One of them was

14:56

he'd sort of been looking at conditioning with

14:58

the six day turnaround and assessing

15:01

the general sort of fitness of the squad and he thought

15:05

that having Martin given to start made

15:07

sense. Martin and Chess are actually the

15:09

exact same weight which I find quite interesting.

15:12

They're both 118kg which

15:14

I think is about 18.5 stone

15:17

in old money. But

15:19

what he said was that Martin had sort of had

15:21

more positive feedback from the England front

15:23

row about what he honestly did as crumb,

15:26

i.e. he gives them quite a lot of heft and power behind

15:28

in a scrum. I think it was Joe Marlow in particular

15:30

who'd given that feedback and said naturally

15:33

we appreciate having

15:34

someone like this in the second row who's giving us a lot of shout. Two

15:37

big Midlands lumps but they do play

15:39

the game very differently. Chessham

15:42

is more of a sort of second row who could

15:44

be a six. He's a very similar player really

15:47

to Itoje and Laws and actually one

15:49

criticism of England so far in this tournament

15:51

perhaps is that Itoje, Chessham and Laws are

15:54

all too similar to all feature in the same pack.

15:57

Martin comes in that he might weigh

15:59

the same but he doesn't. play the same way. He's

16:01

a more traditional enforcer,

16:03

tight second row. He can play

16:05

six of course but in the same way that all the best players

16:08

have a little bit of versatility to them. I mean

16:11

Martin is going to be chop, scrum, chop,

16:13

scrum, chop, scrum. Whereas that necessarily

16:15

hasn't been Chessum's remit. He's

16:17

been given a bit more license

16:20

to roam in the loose. You remember that try against

16:22

Samoa where he's tramlining Tom Croft

16:25

style down the flank. Don't expect that from

16:27

George Martin. His work will be in the

16:30

tight, in the thick of it, trying to get into

16:32

this fantastic springbok pack at

16:34

the heart of which is obviously Evan Edspeth and

16:37

Frank Amosto in the second row. Yeah and it's been

16:39

the World Cup hasn't it? A big sort of forward

16:41

roaming out on the wings.

16:43

Trying to affect things later on. We saw Ireland trying to

16:45

do that against New Zealand on Saturday doing that with Jack Owen

16:47

and Tyburn sort of out on the wings looking

16:49

to be creating mismatches.

16:51

Chessum could potentially do that quite well. Just

16:54

to very quickly wrap up

16:57

on England, just a quick follow-on around

16:59

the table. Is there a selection

17:01

that you don't like at all or

17:03

a player you might have thought about differently? Charles

17:05

will come to you first. Yeah I think I'd have gone fourth farrel.

17:08

I'd have gone fourth farrel with no Smith at 15

17:12

and with Stewart coming back in I'd have gone fourth farrel

17:14

for the extra playmaking and also

17:17

for a more

17:19

varied kicking game and also for

17:21

two players who can kick drop goals and it

17:23

might come down to that. And to keep

17:25

that scoreboard ticking like they did against Argentina

17:28

I'd have gone fourth farrel.

17:29

Charlie anything for you?

17:30

Nine, just really interests me. I think Alex

17:33

Mitchell needs to just

17:36

be as accurate as he possibly can. And

17:39

Ollie any selections you might have tweaked if you look

17:41

at that side? The marginalising

17:43

of George Ford mystifies me somewhat

17:45

having been there for that first game where he was obviously

17:48

instrumental and I really don't understand

17:51

Steve Bortley when he corrected a

17:53

reporter the other week for suggesting

17:55

he'd been dropped for the bench and was saying he's actually

17:58

just changed his role for the bench. You

18:00

can't really imagine George Ford ringing his

18:02

dad with great enthusiasm saying, you

18:04

know, I've just changed my role to the bench

18:08

I'm not I don't really like the fact that

18:10

Ford has been shoved to the periphery so

18:13

much to make way for Farrell as Accomplished

18:16

as Farrell is Changed his role.

18:18

I think he's an eddyism which is sort of been

18:20

left over I'm not mad

18:23

about the lack of pace on the wings compared

18:25

to Colby and Curly are in terms

18:27

of how England can get turned in that area,

18:29

but that's a good

18:29

segue Actually into chatting

18:32

more now about Alaska their

18:34

selection and why they're just massive

18:36

favorites and they're gonna win this comfortably

18:42

Right the turn box and unchained side Charles has

18:44

been hanging around their camp a week hearing a lot

18:47

from Razi Erasmus actually He was up on

18:49

Monday

18:50

and Monday

18:52

buys zugu and then Tuesday in person

18:55

and then tomorrow Probably

18:58

have an assistant coach tomorrow Maybe Don human would not

19:01

have too much from him and then it was Jack Nianaba

19:03

this morning with the team announcement And

19:05

yeah, well, we've already gone over the

19:07

the sort of pantomime Volderville

19:10

aspects of his press conference on

19:13

Tuesday. It really was something to behold We've

19:15

got a bit of audio now from Jack Nianaba just talking

19:17

about Some of the physical toll

19:19

on his squad and then stick with that same

19:21

selection and looking ahead to England So

19:23

here's the South ahead coach if you

19:26

talk about physicality I think that

19:28

dongle game was probably one of the most physical

19:30

games that that our players told

19:32

us they played him so so

19:35

I think so

19:37

in terms of a Physicality point

19:40

of view the one group got nicely

19:42

exposed to it against Island

19:46

and then the following week the other group

19:48

over the other part of our squad got exposure

19:50

to it in the in the Tonga game

19:53

and and So physicality is like

19:55

any any conditioning component. You have

19:57

to you have to get used to

19:59

it you have to condition yourself with. So

20:02

I think from that point

20:05

of view, it put us up nicely

20:08

for the game against France. And obviously the French

20:10

game was physical. But

20:12

like I said, listen, we went out, you

20:15

know our policy in terms of training. If you can't

20:17

train on Monday, you can't play. So

20:20

everybody was good and ready and

20:22

they could train. So there wasn't any medical

20:24

issues. So from a physical point of view,

20:26

we got a nice stimulus from a physical point of view.

20:30

Against France and we will, that

20:33

exposure we'll need that experience going

20:35

into England because I think it will be the same

20:37

like Sia mentioned now. If you look at their performances

20:41

and their build up during this competition, they

20:45

improving every single game,

20:47

they're getting better. And then

20:49

where do I think they're gonna challenge us? Yeah,

20:52

like any team, I think like I've

20:54

mentioned last time with

20:57

the French team, they've

20:59

got a unique kicking game that they employ.

21:02

The same with the English team.

21:06

I think they're a team that's comfortable not playing

21:08

with a ball. I think if you look at them, I think they're

21:10

the team that kick the most and they

21:13

like to suffocate and strangle you, kick the

21:15

ball in your off and wait for you to make and

21:17

apply pressure there and wait for you to make a mistake.

21:19

So we, from a tactical

21:22

point of view, we

21:24

know what's coming our way and we must just make

21:26

sure that we execute on the day. What

21:28

do you think is the strongest

21:30

part of the Snackin team? Either

21:32

from a tactical point of view or in terms of a

21:34

positional group, where do you think they are

21:37

just headed shoulders above

21:38

the rest, Charlie's bike? It's

21:41

a big compliment because England have strength as

21:43

well, but even Etsavet

21:46

has just gone from strength to strength and he was

21:48

just awesome in that, in

21:50

what was a monumental quarterfinal. But

21:52

everywhere really, the pace,

21:55

I will mention the pace outright, why

21:57

with Colby and Arendz, they're just

21:59

so... dangerous in transition as they showed

22:02

against France. Someone like Jesse

22:04

Creel would potentially be seen

22:06

as a little bit of a weak

22:08

link maybe in years gone by. He's been

22:10

really assured this tournament. Likewise,

22:13

Libach and with that

22:16

contingency on the bench in Pollard, that's

22:19

a really interesting one. How they've ordered their halfbacks

22:21

is really interesting because

22:23

Váthokáp brought so much energy from the bench didn't he?

22:26

It's cliche and it's a bit boring but I'll go

22:28

with the bench. I'll go with the bench and

22:31

not necessarily the bomb squad but just

22:34

the bench and the depth that this South Africa

22:36

squad has and the ability for

22:38

them to be able to pivot into any strategy

22:40

and any tactic that they want to play and to

22:43

adapt the circumstances of each game with

22:45

their eight replacements and

22:48

how versatile it all is and how

22:50

harmonious it all is. In terms

22:52

of depth and in terms of 23,

22:55

they have the best 23 in the tournament and I think most people

22:57

would have said that from the start. It's

22:59

just I think most people thought that other

23:02

teams starting 15s were better and then

23:05

we didn't potentially realise how much of an

23:07

impact that 23, that whole

23:10

aspect would have. I really appreciate

23:12

it. I'm now coming to you third on this and they've

23:14

chosen Ed to bet on the bench but

23:16

what sticks out to you? What impressed you about

23:18

the South Africa side? Not just in rugby but in

23:21

sport I guess as well. I

23:23

think collectively the Springboks

23:25

class of 2023, ominously

23:28

for England, seems even more complete than

23:30

the class of 2019 and I totally

23:33

agree with Charlie about the point out wide.

23:36

That was what most struck

23:39

me about the win over

23:41

France. Colby

23:43

and Arenti just both awesome

23:46

and the way that Colby has clear

23:48

I think of another who's not exactly

23:51

sluggish the way he just had

23:53

clear. I think he's a 10.700m runner in his youth and

23:55

it's just

23:59

aside to behold and it just shows that they're far

24:02

from one dimensional. Right, James, to finish

24:04

off, England against South Africa and Saturday night

24:06

for a place in the Rugby World Cup

24:08

final, to do a quick round of predictions.

24:11

Charlie, you're closest to me in this

24:14

lovely restaurant that we're in, so I'm going to come to you first.

24:17

Who's winning? Nobody's

24:19

going to go. I feel like nobody's going to go England, so it

24:21

should maybe balance out, but I

24:24

still think a lot closer

24:27

than the bookies have it, but South Africa

24:29

by

24:30

three. Sodd it, I'll go England. I'll

24:32

go England, I'll go England by three. It'll

24:36

be tight no matter what. I think

24:38

they've got a chance. I think the

24:42

emotional toll could be a lot

24:44

for the Springboks to back up from last weekend.

24:47

There's an element of surprise and

24:50

the unknown with Borthwick's England.

24:55

Stranger things have happened. It's 80 minutes of knockout

24:57

rugby. Let's go. Someone's got to

24:59

go England. I'll go England by three. I'm

25:01

going to go South Africa by nine, which

25:04

I have seen predictions

25:07

earlier this week that South Africa by 35 or 40,

25:10

but one dimension

25:13

is that they have a player such as Mauro

25:15

Itoje who seems

25:17

unbothered by the aura of opposition,

25:20

as he showed four years ago,

25:22

and when we spoke to him earlier

25:24

on, he seemed particularly focused

25:27

and he said how everything about this week in

25:29

terms of the atmosphere seemed very heightened.

25:31

There was a very clear awareness of

25:34

what they needed to do in the same way

25:36

as there was in 2019. I think with him

25:38

at the

25:41

helm, England at

25:43

least have a shot at making it close, but I don't

25:45

think they have a shot at victory.

25:47

No, I think that's right. I think if Mauro

25:49

had been quite head-up and

25:51

emotional, then I would have been more concerned, but the

25:53

fact that he seemed quite focused and relaxed was

25:56

definitely interesting. South Africa are definitely

25:58

going to win. But I do find

26:00

it interesting how, if you'd

26:03

asked me in the middle of France, Africa

26:05

last Sunday, I would have said that France or South Africa would

26:07

have been in this England side by about 30 points. World

26:11

Cup's a weird. Part

26:13

of me now would not be shocked. But

26:17

I just feel like, if we're

26:19

going to get a true reflection of

26:21

the quality of the two sides and how much further ahead

26:23

in their developments in Africa rather than England,

26:26

it's going to be in the final score. So for that reason,

26:28

I'm almost certain South

26:31

Africa will win. But we'll find out

26:33

very, very, very soon. We're looking

26:35

forward to it. Thanks for following all the coverage. Plenty on the website.

26:38

We'll be brief next week and find out who's in the final.

26:41

Bye.