Episode Transcript
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0:01
The Telegraph, podcasts.
0:14
Hello again everyone, I hope the feast of Rugby
0:16
World Cup action has kept you thoroughly entertained
0:18
over the weekend. You are joined once again
0:21
by Charlie Morgan. Alright Charlie. Morning Colesy.
0:23
And you're joined by Charles Richardson. Alright Charles.
0:26
Morning Ben. And I'm Ben Coles. The
0:28
three of us are here ready to unpack some fascinating games,
0:31
in particular, Islands of Africa on Saturday
0:33
in Paris, what a belter, and also Wales
0:36
Australia in Lyon on Sunday. Gents, where
0:38
were you? I was in and out of Lille.
0:41
Sorry, I jumped in there. That's how
0:43
quick you were. He loves Lille.
0:44
And it grew on me. It grew
0:46
on me. This is how pathetically
0:49
easy I am to manipulate. I arrived
0:51
in the sort of dreary weather, thought why am I
0:53
away from the south coast? But
0:56
then it grew on me over the weekend. A few
0:59
nice squares, nice bit
1:01
of interaction with fans in and around the
1:03
city. Cool stadium, nearly died
1:05
on the cab ride over there but once got
1:07
there, lovely. Tell us more. Just
1:11
a bit of naughty swerving across lanes
1:13
when
1:14
the driver didn't see the exit but we got
1:16
there fine. How much cheese? Loads
1:19
of cheese, mainly for breakfast now actually. I've pivoted.
1:22
Is that something that you've continued in England?
1:25
Yeah, being really, really, not in England, no, but I've been consistent
1:27
when I've been over there for sure. I
1:30
was in Lyon, had lovely three days there actually.
1:32
Good fun on Saturday night,
1:34
well done to all the Wales
1:36
and Australian fans who sort of packed into
1:38
this bit of Lyon with the
1:41
local cultural highlights like Little Welsh Beer
1:43
Bar
1:44
and King Arthur's Pub. You really
1:46
pushed the boat out and found local French places and
1:48
you had a nice time. No, it was great atmosphere
1:51
in Lyon on a Saturday night and yeah, fun
1:53
game on Sunday. Speaking of highlights
1:55
from the weekend, Charles
1:58
I'll come to you first, give me a highlight.
4:00
Matt Canson, Bundy Yaki
4:03
who has just been a revelation this this tournament
4:05
but also he spent a bit of time in the
4:07
island camp last year for the New Zealand
4:09
tour that actually started this run of 16
4:12
wins that they're on and I just kind of wanted
4:14
to speak to him a little bit about the
4:16
mentality within that within that camp
4:19
the blend of personalities if
4:21
you think about people like Andy Farrell and Paula
4:23
Connell are two of the most magnetic charismatic
4:26
guys in the sport over
4:29
the last few years and just how
4:31
that all works together and he was really interesting
4:33
on that because speaking speaking
4:35
from a coaches point of view he was saying that you
4:38
get real progress when it's a camp
4:40
that is prepared with individuals
4:42
within it who are prepared to challenge each other on
4:45
ideas and that was a big thing
4:47
that came away from what Pete was saying it was really interesting
4:49
stuff. And with Aki in particular we'll
4:52
chat more about him later but the fact that he
4:54
was kind of struggling to form a bit maybe
4:56
a year ago and not necessarily in
4:59
in Ireland's reckoning and not actually struggling to
5:01
get a game time for Connell as well just shows
5:03
what a fantastic turnaround it's been. Yeah
5:06
absolutely and undoubted first trust
5:08
me we had a discussion last week as to who island might pick
5:10
in the centres for this game and I think we all went Aki
5:13
completely obviously completely vindicated
5:15
that decision to start Aki alongside
5:18
Ringrose and have Henshaw on the bench obviously Henshaw
5:20
himself is a fabulous player but Aki is sort
5:22
of at the minute if you're picking a world 15
5:24
he's about 12 I can't
5:26
think of any but maybe him and Dontee would be competing
5:29
for an inside centre spot in a world 15 yeah just
5:32
what a what a renaissance from him. Yeah
5:34
it really has been great fun to watch actually loads
5:37
of good content on the website at the moment including Charlie
5:40
in great detail picking through Australia's
5:43
miserable night in Leon on Sunday
5:45
which I'm sure you did with absolutely no pleasure To
5:48
be fair that's a pervading feeling I think
5:50
people people were saying sort of online while they
5:52
were watching it this is just a bit sad.
5:55
Sad is the word. From around the 60 minute
5:58
mark we're gonna get into the game in more detail But
6:00
from around the 16-minute market, it was just
6:02
such an inevitable unraveling of
6:04
an inexperienced side who aren't very well
6:06
coached that Missing
6:08
some of their best players. Mmm. It was low
6:11
having said that You know Wales deserve
6:13
a lot of credit and hopefully even though that the
6:15
headline piece is pretty brutal There's
6:18
some it highlights some positive
6:20
things that Wales did as well I mean, it was a complete Australian
6:23
abomination wasn't it from from the 60th minute that
6:25
you're right unraveling is a really a really
6:27
really good word I mean there was But
6:31
you say from the 60th minute. I must admit
6:33
having watched that game from the first or the fifth
6:35
minute I didn't think Australia were gonna win I mean Eddie
6:37
had spoken about how how important
6:40
a positive fast start was for them and the opposite
6:42
happened They give away a penalty at the opening rug
6:44
didn't they with Dave Precke not rolling away?
6:47
And then at halftime, it was the same again They
6:49
got Australia got turned over from
6:52
the from the restart from the kickoff Held
6:54
up from the kick and it just it was it was a really
6:57
really sorry night and yeah It's
6:59
not nice to see actually it's it's nice
7:01
to see Wales You know sort
7:03
of proving some doubt is wrong But it's
7:05
not nice to see how far Australia have fallen
7:08
You know a lot of us will have very fond memories of
7:10
Australian rugby teams Look at the world
7:12
champions in 91 99 84 wallabies
7:15
one of the greatest teams of all time With
7:17
with with legends throughout and to
7:19
see where they are now basically a rabble I
7:22
mean, I know they were missing their two best players who are Not
7:25
my meaning to bang the world 15 trim again who
7:27
are they are touching world 15 status,
7:29
you know Tanya LaTuba and Will Skelton. I know they
7:31
were missing them but even so If
7:35
that if missing those two players meant that we
7:38
that we lose You know that they lose
7:40
that game to Wales and I think that's something that most
7:42
people could swallow But to lose in the manner that they did
7:44
they shouldn't be losing like that Yeah, we'll
7:46
unpack it a bit more later in the episode a couple
7:49
of columns as well on Eddie Jones Bizarre
7:51
situation after that news broke about him reportedly
7:54
having an interview with Japan Fianna
7:56
Thomas was down at Sandy Park see how the red roses go
7:58
on as well. So loads on the website have a look at. But
8:01
let's start our episode by diving a little
8:03
bit deeper into what was a cracking
8:05
game between Ireland and South Africa.
8:10
We hoped it would be a blockbuster in Paris. It
8:13
always was probably the fixture that we circled
8:16
when the draw was kind of made and looked
8:18
to when they were going to be playing each other. We were
8:21
probably the most excited by defending champions,
8:24
number one team in the world and Charles, we got...
8:26
we sort of belted, didn't
8:28
we? I mean, it sort of had everything that you would
8:30
have wanted that game to have, I think. Absolutely did. I mean, there
8:33
are very, very few criticisms that
8:36
I can level at the game as a whole, taking
8:39
all the different elements that we would dissect and
8:41
digest. I thought Ben O'Keefe, the
8:45
referee's job nowadays is very, very difficult and I know
8:47
he's had a lot of... copped a lot of flack. I
8:49
think that just happens now in big games. I just think that
8:51
is... that's just part of the course
8:54
now. But personally, I really
8:56
think that at the minute with the state that rugby union's
8:58
in, if the referee's not deciding
9:01
the outcome of the match, if there's not deciding the result,
9:03
then I think they've probably had a good game and I don't
9:05
think Ben O'Keefe decided the result of that game. I
9:08
was happy with his performance. I think there's probably a couple
9:10
of things that he might think
9:12
that he got wrong, but that's probably the case in every
9:14
single rugby match that's ever taken place. And
9:17
the two teams themselves were phenomenal.
9:19
You looked at Ireland. Ireland
9:21
looked a bit shell-shocked in the first 10. South
9:23
Africa came storming out the blocks. The
9:26
line-out went completely to pieces. Ireland's
9:28
line-out went completely to pieces. But then they
9:30
shored everything up and that is a sign of a good team, isn't it?
9:32
You know, backs on the ropes,
9:35
shoring it up, finding a way to win and actually
9:37
not just sort of grinding out a victory
9:39
either. They say that sort of good
9:42
teams can win even when they're playing poorly.
9:44
Well, this wasn't even the case. They still played well. They
9:47
played some lovely rugby. You know, we had Sexton's
9:50
timing of the pass to Aki often at 12
9:52
was just sublime. Like, it couldn't have been
9:54
better. And I
9:56
mean, you're looking at Aki against Dale Ende there
9:59
and I mean, Dale Ende played well. one of his best matches for
10:01
a good while and even so was still
10:03
sort of outplayed by Aki. It was an awesome,
10:06
awesome contest and if we saw it again
10:08
I don't think anyone would be unhappy. Really interesting
10:10
point on the refereeing. So I bumped into a bit of a
10:12
clang here. I bumped into Alid Walters at Leal
10:14
Station on my way back and one of the first things he said
10:17
was, what'd you think of that last mall turnover?
10:19
I actually said to him, I mean
10:21
I probably made a bit of an idiot myself, but I'd said to him,
10:23
well the thing about playing the box is all
10:26
of those contest areas are so
10:28
ferociously contested that you
10:30
sort of can be wrong both ways or you can be
10:33
right both ways and then realise I'm chatting to a guy
10:35
that coached the box for the last World Cup
10:37
and then I sort of realised at the end of my point, you
10:39
know, that's better than me. But no,
10:41
that was, I thought, I agree with you. I think you're
10:43
always going to be able to catalogue a load of things that
10:45
referees do wrong
10:48
in games because that's the nature of it, especially
10:51
more so heightened when South Africa team
10:53
that based, there's an amazing clip I think from the Chasing
10:55
the Sun documentary where Rosier
10:57
Azimah says, I don't want you to get into 80 contests
10:59
and win 60, I want you to get into 100 and 120 and win,
11:02
you know, win 90. And with
11:04
every player on the pitch doing that in that mindset
11:07
then it's absolutely, it's absolutely going to be difficult
11:09
for those officials and I thought O'Keefe put himself
11:12
in a good position to get a big
11:14
knockout game later on in the tournament. What
11:16
I found about the
11:18
game sort of more so
11:21
was thinking about it in the context of the whole tournament
11:23
and I kept thinking back to South Africa losing the
11:26
first game of the last World Cup against New Zealand
11:28
and now almost more so that
11:30
because they've won the last one, they're a team that won't
11:33
take too downhearted about losing
11:35
a game that essentially doesn't matter because they
11:37
get France rather than New Zealand, but it
11:40
doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, they've still got to keep
11:42
winning all the way to the final. And I think those
11:44
subplots, so they didn't maul hardly
11:46
at all until the end. They're 100% doing
11:48
that in more important games.
11:52
There's just a few wrinkles. They won't go 7-1
11:54
again, I don't think, just because they
11:57
give themselves a look. Certainly Pollard will come back into
11:59
their gun 23. and they'll give themselves a little bit
12:01
more leeway because with the 7-1 they couldn't change
12:03
up their back line at all until the end because that's
12:05
too much of a risk. I
12:08
just found it really, really interesting knowing that
12:10
those sides knew that they could probably meet
12:12
again. Yeah. Because, and if you think, if
12:14
you talk about islands, sorry, if you talk about South
12:16
Africa's miskicks off the T, you have to talk
12:19
about island gaffing the line out. The
12:21
things that both sides will be, will
12:25
know that they can improve and that's what's so exciting. I'm
12:28
very nervous that the Telegraph will be podcasting the line out
12:30
because we've bigged it up against how it went against
12:32
Tonga and how effective it was to launch all their
12:35
attacking routes and they lost the first four, didn't they,
12:37
which was a bit of a mess. Absolutely. And
12:40
on the goal kicking, I've written about this. Manny Libet played beautifully
12:42
at Fly Half. Razi Erasmus made this
12:44
point in the post-match interview about
12:48
how excellent he was and people who were saying
12:50
that Andre Pollard should have started. Well, Erasmus made
12:52
the point that A, he wasn't 100% fit. And
12:55
B,
12:55
how do you know that, with how
12:58
well Libet played with the ball in his hand, how
13:00
do you know that we would have got to those positions
13:03
to win those penalties,
13:05
to win those kickable penalties if Pollard had
13:07
played? We might have been losing by more. You
13:10
know, you can't say, oh, the
13:12
goal kick has lost us the game because he missed
13:14
six points. You know, that just doesn't
13:16
work. It's just basic chaos theory. There
13:19
is, there is so many other variables
13:21
at play. Who's to say if Libet
13:23
could kick those three points, the island wouldn't have gone down the other
13:25
end and scored a try. You know, you just can't, you
13:28
can't boil it down to that. And
13:32
there is no shame, there is no shame whatsoever
13:34
for South Africa, for the Springboks to come within five
13:36
points and five metres of
13:39
beating or not losing to the
13:42
World's Number One ranked team in the ball stages of the World
13:44
Cup. They won't, they won't be down, they won't be sort
13:46
of dispirited by that at all, I don't think. No, I think that's
13:48
fair. I think you're kind of pleased in
13:51
some ways if you're both sides because there's stuff
13:53
there that you can rectify within
13:55
time for the knockout stages when it really matters. At
13:57
the same time, I don't think there was too much damage.
14:00
to be the team off the top of my head in terms
14:02
of injuries or knocks. I just wanted to mention Andrew
14:04
Porter's performance. He was fantastic for
14:06
Ireland and the way he's
14:09
one of many players who have kicked on in the last two
14:12
or three years within this team. They
14:15
play such an efficient brand of rugby Ireland and
14:17
he's certainly a big part of that with how he contributes
14:19
from a rut clear out and a carrying
14:21
and attacking perspective. He went 75 minutes
14:24
I thought as well. He's going pretty well as
14:26
well. I thought he was one of the standout
14:28
performers. What about James Loe tackle
14:30
on Eximeth as well? Why are we talking about the standout
14:32
performance? He's just... James Loe's defence,
14:35
full stop. He got a jackal turn over the knee. That
14:38
was obviously a big work on for him. I
14:40
think he's been totally open about
14:42
saying that and he was out of the side briefly
14:44
because of that. We led to believe. So
14:47
yeah, all the game. That's
14:49
his first time he's played to the African as well
14:51
which is quite cool. Quite a nice way to
14:53
get off the mark. I just wondered if it changed
14:55
anything you felt about in
14:57
terms of eventual
15:00
winners of this tournament and whether
15:02
watching South Africa wobble slightly
15:05
but not majorly or Ireland
15:07
putting away South Africa with kind of a statement World
15:09
Cup win in a way, whether that had made you,
15:12
Charlie, feel a bit differently about who might win it all. It
15:14
made me think Ireland are more likely to
15:16
now although having been on the South
15:18
Africa bandwagon for a long
15:21
time. The only way it went I
15:23
think was the hooker situation and how I
15:25
think if I was one of those grandmas I'd be worried
15:27
in training because
15:30
I think as soon as one of those, if there's a
15:32
hint of an injury to one of those we might see is Joseph
15:34
Dwebber would be the next... Yeah,
15:37
because I just think that gives them a little bit more
15:39
solidity but then again the South African coaching
15:42
team is extremely, he's been around the block,
15:45
they're extremely street wise and
15:47
they'll know various ways as to how they can get
15:49
over the line. So I'm still high on South
15:52
Africa but I'm a little bit higher on Ireland.
15:59
in the opposition but that continued against Africa
16:02
where he was
16:03
sensational. So to hear a bit more about him
16:05
and about Matt Hanson, we're going to hear from Pete
16:07
Wilkins at Connell who spoke to Charlie earlier
16:09
this week.
16:12
Pete, welcome to Togo
16:14
Off-Broadway Podcast. First off, how big
16:17
a change for you personally, Pete, is
16:19
going about your work now without Andy Friend
16:21
and talk us through you assembled a
16:23
team of really interesting characters there with John
16:26
Muldoon, Scott Farley, Mark Sexton, those
16:29
guys. It looks like a really kind of intriguing
16:31
blend you've got.
16:32
Yeah, it is. It is a big change.
16:34
It's funny, I had a fair amount of
16:36
input in the rugby that we played, the planning
16:39
of that rugby and I suppose the rollout of
16:41
it to the squad over the last two seasons really,
16:43
but especially last year, the last year under
16:45
Friendy. So I've had
16:47
my hands over the rugby
16:49
aspect but to be in control
16:51
of the whole show and I suppose having that
16:54
influence on what goes on off-field
16:56
in terms of trying to shape that environment and
16:58
I guess the culture that binds everyone together that enables
17:00
you to play that rugby, it's been fascinating for me.
17:02
It's been a great challenge but one I'd be really excited
17:05
about. So yeah, it's a little bit strange
17:07
not having a boss on the corridor to have to
17:09
run things by but that
17:11
sense of freedom and autonomy is pretty exciting.
17:14
So I'm enjoying the role. As
17:16
you said, we've got a pretty fresh coaching group
17:18
here as well. Cully Tucker is our
17:21
Scrum and Breakdown coach. Cully's renewed
17:23
to go round again but then we've got three
17:25
new guys, John Muldoon doesn't
17:27
need much introduction to Connick fans,
17:29
played over 300 games for the club, captain the size
17:31
for number eight. So he's a bit of a legend in these parts
17:34
but Muldoon is here doing line-out
17:36
and more for us. We've got
17:38
Scott Farley who's joined us as defence coach who
17:40
again doesn't need much introduction. He's had
17:43
a tremendous career especially there with the Wallabies and
17:45
the Brumbies and then coming over to Leinster
17:48
so he's well known in these parts too. And
17:50
then Mark Sexton, younger brother Johnny,
17:52
so Mark's here as a skills coach and also assisting
17:54
me with the attack. So we've got a really neat blend,
17:56
very different characters, very different
17:59
rugby backgrounds. but all of bringing their
18:01
take on the game and I'm really enjoying working
18:03
with them so far.
18:04
I wanted to get your insight, Pete.
18:08
You've been into the Island camp reasonably
18:10
recently on the tour
18:12
of New Zealand last July, at the
18:14
start of this 16 win run
18:16
that they're on. First
18:19
of all, can I just ask you about the blend of characters they've got?
18:22
If you think about Andy Farrell and Paul O'Connell,
18:24
they'd be two of the sort of most magnetic, charismatic
18:27
personalities you'd probably find in the sport.
18:29
Could you tell me about a few of your lasting memories
18:32
of
18:33
that time you had with them, maybe what you took
18:35
away and how it influenced you?
18:37
Yeah, I think there certainly
18:39
is a really interesting blend of characters there amongst
18:42
the coaching staff and I think that's something that certainly
18:45
adds to the success there. I think, as
18:47
you said, you've got Andy there and Paul O'Connell,
18:49
both legends of the game in their own
18:51
respects. Simon Easterby is
18:54
there as defence coach, also had a terrific
18:56
career himself and provides
18:59
another angle he took on the team defence once
19:02
Andy moved up to the head coach role.
19:05
So you've got John Fogarty there as scrum
19:07
coach and Mike Capp
19:09
there as skills and backs coach. So it's
19:12
a really interesting blend of guys. They're all hugely
19:14
respected in not just Irish rugby
19:16
circles but beyond that. But
19:18
again, very different personalities and
19:22
certain members of that group are very methodical in
19:24
the way they go about things. Others who are very much about
19:26
the feel and sparking
19:29
the sort of emotional and some of
19:31
the non-tangible aspects of coaching. So
19:33
I think they bounce off each other really well but I think
19:35
importantly they're not afraid to challenge each other and
19:38
all of them are very good at
19:40
parking their ego and looking for the answers
19:43
that give the team the best opportunity and the best
19:45
of rugby development. So I think that was really good
19:47
for me to see of how you blend a coaching group
19:49
and certainly something that we reflected
19:51
on quite heavily when we're looking to put together
19:54
this new coaching group for this new chapter
19:56
here at Connick as well. I think one
19:58
of their great strengths is a great team. group is
20:01
their ability to embrace
20:03
the chaos at times and just
20:06
accept that there are things that are going to be outside
20:08
of your control, whether that's within a game in terms
20:10
of how the opposition goes or the referee
20:12
or the weather or whether it's logistics around
20:15
the game in terms of travel and injuries and preparation.
20:18
I think that New Zealand tour was a really great
20:20
way. Andy talked about it himself at the
20:22
time, but a way of taking people out of their
20:24
comfort zone and having
20:26
some of those unseen obstacles that come your
20:29
way on a tour like that, three test matches against
20:31
the All Blacks and the two midweek games
20:33
against the Maori, how the guys
20:35
approach those challenges, how
20:38
do they accept what they can and can't control
20:40
and see who can actually handle that and who
20:42
can come out of those situations stronger or who
20:45
finds it all a bit too stressful that it inhibits
20:47
their performance. That's not just players, that's
20:49
coaches, it's backroom staff, it's the whole
20:51
family, I suppose. That was really interesting,
20:54
the way they just prepare to embrace those difficult
20:56
situations and as I said, see who
20:59
thrives in that sort of environment because you know when you
21:01
get to any sporting contest, but particularly a World
21:03
Cup, there's going to be a few of those curve balls that come your
21:05
way. So their ability to,
21:08
I suppose, keep an open mindset and a positive
21:10
attitude with that, but take the learnings and the growth
21:12
from it as well. It's pretty powerful and
21:15
that was prominent in that New Zealand trip and I
21:17
think you're seeing it now in the World Cup as well. I was
21:19
going to say, speaking of chaos, facing
21:22
a 7-1 bench or facing the World
21:24
Champions with a 7-1 bench who
21:26
are trying to squeeze you in a way that you've lost games
21:28
previously, I guess, in Ireland's case.
21:32
Could I ask you about your thoughts
21:35
on the weekend watching that and how
21:37
impressive it was that Ireland managed
21:39
to get through?
21:40
Yeah, I think it's really
21:42
interesting and it's a key bit
21:44
of their mindset as a group but also
21:47
directly impact some of their rugby decisions and
21:49
the rugby success on the back of it. As
21:52
you said, there was a fair amount of feedback
21:54
and judgement on Leinster's performances
21:57
against La Rochelle and having come and stuck against them a couple
21:59
of years ago. times and when you're up against real
22:01
physical opposition and would
22:03
Ireland be able to handle that this World Cup
22:06
and I understand why those question marks.
22:09
That said, that game the other night
22:12
it shows that not
22:14
just that they can survive against those physical
22:17
teams but they can find a way to thrive and it might
22:19
not be having a massive amount of ball and play time
22:21
or a massive amount of possession but
22:23
they can still be really effective for what they do get
22:26
and at the same time muscle up and
22:28
stop the power game that comes up. So it's
22:31
only one game and both South Africa and
22:33
Ireland obviously have tremendously challenging
22:36
knockout games when they get to that stage but
22:38
I think it was a really important part and not so
22:40
much proving themselves but probably proving to the outside
22:42
world that they're able
22:44
to handle that physical challenge and still assert
22:46
themselves on our position in a slightly different way.
22:50
You've got four players at the tournament I think I'm
22:52
right in saying. Finley, Mack and Bundy
22:54
with Ireland and Leve for Fita with Tonga.
22:58
Can I ask you about a couple of the guys
23:01
in the Ireland squad back specifically?
23:03
First of all, Matt Canson, he just seems to
23:06
be a
23:07
total breath of fresh air both as far
23:09
as his character and the way he plays
23:12
and he really embodies, we've spoken before
23:14
about the free-spirited sort of way that you
23:17
want or open-minded way sorry that you want
23:19
Connick to play,
23:20
he seems to embody that. Yeah he does
23:22
as you said, Mack's a terrific character and I think
23:25
the more people get to know him and the more air time
23:27
he gets you see just
23:29
what a unique guy he is and I
23:31
think he's really enjoyable
23:33
to work with from a coaching
23:35
perspective partly because he's just a really great human
23:38
being but has that kind of mindset
23:40
that he does embrace
23:42
the challenges and he's not afraid to look for different
23:44
ways to get success on the field.
23:48
He's got a pretty good balance I think of being
23:50
really true to himself, there's no airs
23:52
and graces, he wants to
23:54
let that character shine through which is part of his rugby
23:57
identity as well as him as a person but
23:59
he also understands what the team needs from him. And
24:01
I think that South Africa game was really interesting because it
24:03
was a game where he didn't necessarily
24:06
get a lot of opportunity to carry in a
24:08
lot of open space. But
24:10
he made sure he did what the team required. And
24:12
if he had to catch a high ball and take a big tackle, he did.
24:15
And he had to do his work at the breakdown, he
24:17
did, or carry through some heavy traffic, he did. And
24:19
I think that understanding of the importance of
24:22
not going into your shell of really expressing yourself,
24:24
but at the same time understanding how you fit into
24:26
the team's framework for success. I think,
24:28
you know, Max got a great ability to manage that balance
24:31
and certainly he's done it really well in his
24:33
island career so far. And it's something we're
24:36
trying to really encourage, you know, back here at Conux as
24:38
well.
24:39
Excited to watch. Bundy,
24:41
you arrived at Conux, I think I'm right in
24:43
saying, in 2017, which is the year
24:45
that
24:46
Bundy made his test debut. So having
24:49
been as close to him as you have for I guess
24:51
his entire test career,
24:54
how has he developed in that time as a player? One
24:56
thing that has, I
24:58
get, I must have struck, I hope it
25:00
struck everybody, it certainly struck me watching, is placing
25:03
open field both over the warmups,
25:05
he had that,
25:06
scored that try against England, but then in a few
25:08
games and you think, oh, he's doing that against Romania,
25:10
oh, he's doing that against Thailand, on the night he's done
25:13
it against the Springboks as well. It's
25:16
been so impressive. No, it
25:18
really has, it really has. And I think what he's
25:20
done over, you know, certainly
25:22
these two World Cups now, he's just
25:24
got himself in unbelievable physical condition.
25:27
You know, he's naturally a warrior.
25:30
He will carry through brick walls for you, he won't
25:32
shirk any challenge. And we've
25:34
always known that abrasiveness and
25:36
robustness has been there and I suppose that
25:39
power game. But to get himself in the
25:41
condition where, as you said, he's getting those
25:43
high speed involvements as well and not just one
25:45
offs, but back to back, he's staying in the game after
25:47
that. He's not just having a big sprint or a big
25:49
carry and then drifting off to the end
25:51
of the back line for a rest. He's looking
25:53
to be in the moment, he's looking to
25:56
get those back to back contributions
25:58
to the team. I think that's enormous. He's
26:01
a great character to work with. Another
26:04
one we talk about is free spirit. He's
26:06
got a big personality and his energy
26:09
has such a big impact on the group. Even
26:12
the days where he might not be getting much ball or the
26:14
game might not be going your way, he's a constant
26:17
voice and a constant menace to the
26:19
opposition, whether that's in terms of
26:22
his influence on the game or just
26:24
the energy that he brings to his side. So he
26:26
is great to work with. I think again, he thrives in
26:28
that Irish environment. It keeps him on his toes
26:31
constantly. I just
26:33
think the amount of minutes he's played for them and the impact
26:35
he's obviously had in this World Cup shows how important
26:37
he is to the country. To
26:40
get 50 caps, 50 international caps for anyone,
26:42
but particularly for him with the journeys taken
26:45
to move across the conics and improve himself at
26:47
provincial level, get his opportunity
26:49
with the national team. I've just got so much respect
26:51
for that. So, a long way to continue
26:54
and certainly through this World Cup. Do
26:57
you sense a sense of perseverance
27:00
with him as well? Because I think I'm right in thinking
27:02
around January he was struggling to get in the provincial
27:05
side with you guys and this
27:07
is a serious response to that, I
27:09
guess. Yeah, it
27:11
really is. I think
27:13
he's someone who has enormous personal
27:15
pride in his own performances. Like
27:19
anyone, in terms of those performance levels
27:21
across a career or across a season, it can ebb and
27:23
flow at times. I
27:26
think the thing that's never gone away from Bundy is a
27:29
real passion for the group to succeed and
27:31
to help push the group. Certain
27:35
groups need that at certain times. I
27:37
think he just wants to see the team do well. It
27:40
was a challenging time for him when he wasn't on the field
27:43
very much for Connick, but he worked through that period.
27:45
I think seeing him come
27:47
back into a Connick jersey later last season, and then,
27:50
as we said, the performance is now for Ireland, it
27:53
shows that he is someone that is resilient.
27:55
But also perseveres. I think that's his whole rugby
27:57
journey. I was over at the Reds. when
28:01
he was at the Chiefs and he wasn't a regular
28:03
starting player there at the Chiefs and he came across the
28:05
Conect and probably a bit of an unknown to many people
28:07
and became such a key cog
28:09
in that Conect team that went on to win the Pro 12. The
28:13
legend has grown from there so I think the
28:15
fact he's still training as hard as he is
28:18
and still contributing the way he has, he's
28:21
not the man who's going to give up his opportunities
28:23
in his jersey easily in any team. So I'm
28:25
just excited for him and I'm excited
28:27
the rest of the world are getting to see the best of him as well
28:29
and it's a great reference point for him moving forwards
28:32
because hopefully there's still plenty of rugby
28:34
in him beyond this season and again
28:36
he's laying down a marker of what he can achieve
28:38
and what he can bring to an environment. It's brilliant. Speaking
28:41
of legends growing, Pete, being part
28:44
of Ireland's success
28:47
in the last few years, from
28:50
the vantage point that you've had, is there
28:52
a sense of maybe destiny is a too
28:54
cheesy way of putting it but certainly the
28:57
stars are aligning quite nicely at
28:59
this World Cup and for this group of players
29:01
because it's a special group? Yeah, it's
29:03
an interesting one. I guess my first insight into
29:05
that was that talk to New Zealand
29:07
last summer and it
29:10
struck me that the group was quite prepared.
29:12
I mean players here and management staff quite
29:14
prepared to articulate
29:16
what they wanted to achieve. They talked last
29:19
summer about making a nation proud. They
29:21
talked about wanting to be the number one team in
29:23
the world. They didn't hide from that. At
29:27
the same time they had that balance
29:29
with understanding it wasn't going to be a smooth journey to get
29:31
there. I just think there's a neat balance in
29:33
terms of that ambition and not being afraid to
29:36
walk towards that. At the same
29:38
time accepting you're not going to have everything your own
29:40
way and sometimes you've got to
29:42
find your way out of difficult situations. I
29:45
think that's their strength if anything. I don't know if
29:47
it's a feeling of destiny but I do think it's a feeling
29:49
of absolute determination
29:52
but also the adaptability that's required if you're
29:54
going to get there. It's going to be
29:56
fascinating to see how the next few weeks play out
29:58
for them and obviously the teams as well. Pete,
30:01
thank you so much for your time and I hope you're super busy
30:04
and good luck for the rest of the season. I appreciate it
30:06
Charlie, thanks for having me on and all the best. Charlie,
30:09
can I just ask you a bit about Matt Canson actually and
30:11
how he's kind of developed
30:13
into this excellent player who the Wallerbeez are just watching
30:15
each week and tearing the air out of it, he
30:17
somehow slipped through the net. Such a, so suited
30:20
to how Ireland play, we spoke last week about Andy
30:22
Farrell wanting his attack to be messy
30:25
and his wingers to be a big part of that as far as how they
30:27
roam around the field, pick up touches and I believe
30:29
Matt Canson back in Australia was sort of a
30:32
could play ten, you can really see that, you
30:34
know he's a lovely distributor,
30:37
he's quick, he's deceptively
30:40
wiry and pretty strong, certainly in the Tonga
30:42
game, he was just so,
30:44
there was so much conviction about his carrying despite
30:47
all that heavy traffic and the same was true I thought
30:51
in the South Africa game. I'd sort of
30:53
suggested before South Africa game that
30:55
those wings would be really important to
30:57
South Africa and how they outflanked the blitz.
31:00
I think they were for that one
31:02
big Hugo Keenan break in the first half but
31:04
Matt Canson didn't actually get the ball, he came off his
31:07
wing when Ringrose had it, got absolutely smoked
31:09
without the ball but then the ball, then that gave...
31:11
Was that, was that the triple ball that we got in
31:13
the ball? Yeah, that gave the space, that presented the
31:15
space over the top and you know
31:18
that's another thing we're not talking about really,
31:20
that's a big chance for Ireland to score
31:22
and change the complexion of the game
31:24
and to have South Africa chasing it but
31:27
yeah, Matt Canson's a fantastic player with
31:30
guys like Dan Sheer and Jamison
31:32
Gibson-Park, James
31:35
Lowe, they've really kind of come in this World Cup
31:37
cycle and enhanced Ireland
31:40
and those guys, the impact of those guys
31:42
is the reason for what you see now.
31:45
I say naturally skillful as well and so he's
31:48
aerially so good, he does all those sort of silky
31:50
bits that you look, the sort of cherry on the
31:53
cake as it were for an international winger
31:55
like, so naturally skillful as you said, he's
31:57
deceptively stringed, deceptively fester the ball
31:59
in his hand. and has a really good feel for the game, but
32:01
he also does the nuts and bolts really well, the kick
32:03
chase, the
32:06
jumping and aerial dynamics
32:09
are just brilliant. You
32:11
don't see him drooping too many high balls and I
32:13
think that's become a massively important
32:16
component of modern wing play and
32:19
he does that very well. He's sort of Anthony Watson-esque,
32:21
Anthony's probably a little bit quicker
32:25
than Hanson, but Hanson's probably got a slightly
32:27
better feel for the game, as you said, I don't think
32:30
Anthony Watson's ever played ten, apologies Anthony
32:32
if you have. You're
32:35
right, you could envisage him playing fly half, maybe
32:37
not for Ireland, but maybe at a
32:39
slightly lower level. Sometimes it's
32:41
useful to see the numbers just to back up if you feel a player
32:44
is playing quite well. For Bundyacke,
32:46
he's second for clean breaks in the tournament on
32:48
eight. He's tied second for tries,
32:50
obviously on four, because Henry Arendelle's just had a
32:53
blind difference and it's called five in one game.
32:55
The one that is blowing my mind slightly is that he's
32:58
first for runs or carries on 53 and
33:01
the next best is David Ninias, on 33. He's
33:04
made 20 more runs than any other player in
33:06
the tournament, that is bamboozling.
33:08
I think that also shows how
33:10
much Ireland, when things are
33:13
to create that width that we saw when they did make this
33:15
break, they do just need someone to truck
33:17
up in the middle and particularly against Tonga, for
33:20
a lot of the game he was just doing that, just bashing into
33:22
carries, bashing into contact, tiring out defenders
33:24
to create space. There's
33:26
almost two ways that they've used him. They've used him
33:28
as someone who's breaking the game line and showing sneaky
33:31
speed to get round defenders for tries, but
33:33
also just the work rate he gets through, his sensation
33:35
isn't it? He'd be among Ireland's most valuable
33:37
players and if he said that in January when he
33:39
was struggling to get into the
33:42
conic side, which is what I spoke to Pete
33:44
Wilkins about, that
33:46
would have sounded ridiculous. It shares your work quite
33:48
now for Ireland because they have that gap before the game
33:50
against Scotland at the end and
33:53
also good for the players and
33:55
getting some time in the family. It's good for our comrades and the Irish
33:58
press back as well, you'll get a few days off as well. well
34:00
for your days break. How useful
34:02
is that going to be, do you think
34:04
for them, well it's tricky isn't
34:06
it, would you rather have the momentum coming out of Saturday
34:09
and just get Scotland done? Or
34:11
actually is it quite a nice time after such a physical game
34:13
to just recuperate and then go into the
34:15
game? I was going to say they'd be pretty sore wouldn't
34:18
they? That's quite a nice week off to have.
34:20
Maybe refocuses them as well for Scotland because
34:23
they lose that by more than eight points they're out, which
34:25
is unthinkable because they've won 12 of the
34:27
last 13 against Scotland and they beat the
34:29
McMurray Field by 15 points. Just repeat that
34:32
for the fans at home. Well
34:34
I hope I'm right but I'm pretty sure they've won,
34:36
it's won in the last 13. No no
34:38
before that about if they lose by what? More
34:41
than if they lose by eight points or more. So
34:44
if Ireland don't get any sort of bonus against Scotland
34:46
and they lose then I'm fairly sure they're
34:48
out on the head to head. So
34:51
nothing changes for Scotland despite they've
34:53
just got to keep winning. I think in ordinary circumstances
34:56
Ireland probably would want to play Scotland this Saturday.
34:58
I think ordinarily to keep that momentum
35:01
to not risk sort of slipping into a lull
35:03
but I think you're right with how physical and
35:05
how intense that game was on Saturday night against the Spring
35:08
Rocks I think they might on this occasion treat
35:10
it as a unique fortnight
35:12
and a unique Saturday whereby actually recuperation
35:15
and recovery of those bodies ahead of, as
35:18
you say, it's not a foregone conclusion
35:20
that game at the front. Ireland obviously will go in
35:22
as large favourites but
35:25
with a lot of pressure on them potentially to
35:28
not lose by eight points, if Finn Russell turns up
35:30
and starts pulling strings you know stranger things have
35:32
happened. We've seen much far stranger things happen in the
35:34
world. I almost want it now. We
35:36
haven't really had our upset
35:39
yet. Fiji Australia was a sort
35:41
of semi upset I think. Georgia
35:45
drawing with Portugal is a semi upset
35:48
maybe. I don't think you can really cast that as a full upset because they
35:50
didn't win. So we haven't had our upset
35:52
yet. I think maybe Scotland beating Ireland
35:54
by over eight points. I don't
35:57
know, I'm being disrespectful to Scotland by
35:59
suggesting.
35:59
I'd
36:01
say we've had surprise results without having shock
36:03
results. So Wales blowing out winning
36:06
by that much against Australia is a
36:08
big surprise but yeah as far as a kind
36:10
of big turning over of a big
36:13
favourite I don't think we've probably had that yet. No I mean obviously
36:16
similarly but even more scarily if
36:19
Italy beat France, Le
36:21
Bleu, pack your bags, you are
36:23
very nervous about that. The Charlie
36:25
Morgan millions from the first episode. That's
36:28
what it's it? What was it Italy to get
36:30
through? No France cannot get
36:32
through. It was 33's. I didn't pay any money
36:34
and obviously because I'm not an idiot but well done
36:36
if you did and it happens but you won't.
36:40
You never know the very final
36:42
thing about the Arn Saffirica game. We
36:44
mentioned Ben and Keith earlier but no cards
36:47
and no sort of sightings
36:49
and I want to say no TMO referrals
36:52
for foul play. Like for another podcast
36:54
here I listened to the 42 and Dan Levy was
36:56
on there and he went on a really really interesting
36:58
sort of monologue about cards
37:01
and how bigger games
37:04
potentially like that really focus players
37:06
just into going low because you know how
37:09
much trouble you're putting the
37:11
rest of your team in if you do if you do concede
37:13
it well even a penalty but a card
37:15
sort of on top of that and he actually was saying
37:18
I just can't understand how pros
37:20
are being as lazy to stay up right now
37:22
and some of the cards we've seen in the
37:25
warm-ups maybe a little bit in the well maybe sort
37:27
of the Ethan DeGroote one in against Namibia
37:30
that players can be precisely
37:32
players can be more diligent than that and
37:35
I think I think the game the magnitude
37:37
of the game the Arn Saffirica game just
37:40
must have focused those players so much. It's
37:42
a real complement to their skill and ability
37:44
to perform under pressure I thought that we
37:46
got that they managed to get through that without any cards so
37:49
full credit to both of them. On
37:52
to next a bit more of a lopsided
37:54
scoreline Leon on Sunday night where
37:57
oh Australia what are you doing?
38:01
Ok
38:05
Wales 40, Australia 6, record
38:07
breaking scenes in Leon.
38:10
One of his biggest World Cup defeat, Wales
38:12
biggest winner of Australia, most points
38:14
Wales have ever scored against Australia. That
38:17
last bit is quite funny though because the record that they broke
38:19
was won from last November in Cardiff for
38:21
the most points, so it's not stood for very
38:23
long. But hey, a record is a record.
38:26
Had
38:28
the honour of being there, sat up at the
38:30
very, very, very top of the stadium. Cool
38:33
stadium? Yeah, it is. Do you want
38:35
all the roof for you? It is. Not
38:37
far off. If I'd touched an armour, I'd probably could have grabbed
38:39
onto a rafter and gone swinging. Yeah, it was
38:42
pretty high. Yeah, very
38:44
cool stadium, particularly from
38:47
pitch level if you're doing captain's runs or whatever and getting
38:49
a look around. Yeah, very, very good.
38:52
And you said
38:54
earlier Charlie, I think it was you, maybe it was you Charlie,
38:56
said that it was just quite sad, sad
38:58
watching it. And that was honestly how it felt with 20 minutes to
39:00
go because the contest was done. Wales
39:03
are knocking over a drop goal when they were
39:05
up 32-6 just to keep
39:08
the margin. Just in case of a comeback,
39:10
it was pretty desperate. It was kind
39:13
of the old school way to beat Australia
39:15
is if you can soak up their phase play to
39:18
the point where they don't have many ideas left.
39:21
You can squeeze them in malls, squeeze them
39:23
at the scrum. And Wales just did that. And
39:25
as well as Wales played, they
39:29
played so well because they didn't have to do loads.
39:31
There was just this confidence there that if they could, as
39:33
I say, just if they could absorb pressure
39:35
for a bit. And Australia had a couple
39:38
of chances in the first quarter, didn't they? Donaldson's breakaway,
39:40
he goes left instead of right where he's got a couple
39:42
of runners. That changes the game,
39:45
then it didn't happen. Bella got close
39:47
to me, Bella got close within five metres. And
39:50
then we're back for penalty. And then
39:52
obviously when they get another penalty and
39:54
go for touch, kick it backwards for a
39:56
start and then just run
39:58
the worst line out. Let's just do
40:00
a couple minutes on Ben Donaldson specifically because
40:03
there was a lot of talking to build up about Carter
40:05
Gordon going out, Donaldson coming in. Donaldson
40:08
has this just wild first
40:10
half an hour where, yeah, like you say, makes that break,
40:13
goes to a completely wrong option, chances gone. Before
40:17
that produced a brilliant sort of tactical hit
40:19
to touch which put Australia, pinned Wells back
40:21
in the corner and he thought, okay. But he also
40:23
at one point kicked a restart out on the full. He
40:27
made a sloppy error under the high ball against,
40:29
I want to say Josh Adams, but I can't
40:31
remember who, oh no, no, take me down and pass the
40:33
ball back for him to just do a really basic kick out of
40:35
his 22 with no one around him and just dropped
40:38
it, which was unforgivable. Potentially at fault for
40:40
switching off a little bit for Wells first try inside
40:42
ball as well. Yeah, that was it as well. He was chasing Jack
40:44
Morgan, wasn't he? But that's because he's not played there.
40:47
Right, this is the whole frustration, the whole, the
40:50
reason that Eddie Jones' sort of decisions has
40:52
set up the players to fail because Ben Donaldson
40:54
had a pretty iffy super rugby
40:56
season. He's come as a 10-15. I think
40:59
he's even categorised in the utility category
41:01
of Australia's squad. You've
41:06
purposefully left out tens like
41:08
Quaid Cooper and Bernard Foley who can,
41:11
even if they're back up, they can be a calming
41:13
influence. It's just throwing
41:15
sort of things and hoping they stick and
41:18
when they don't stick, you can't really be
41:20
surprised, you know. Especially if that
41:23
first quarter, if that first quarter everything goes well
41:25
for Ben Donaldson and he gets a pass away for
41:27
the try, you know, he doesn't make a
41:29
couple of those more elementary errors
41:32
and Australia are up, then it can
41:34
be a virtuous circle and he can go
41:36
on to have a really good tournament and steer Australia
41:39
deeper into it. But
41:42
no, because the errors compound themselves
41:44
and there's just less, there's
41:47
just less to go on for a coach, isn't there,
41:49
when you're sort of taking chances like
41:51
that and that's more
41:53
for me why I feel for the players in those situations.
42:00
Gordon got 50 against Fiji last week, so he
42:02
lasted ever
42:04
so slightly longer. Charles, the thing where it all
42:06
seemed to turn watching where I was
42:09
was in the scrum because the first couple of penalties
42:11
against Wales were kind of technical
42:13
offences where Gareth Thomas was getting pinged
42:15
for scrumming outside the tight head and Gareth Thomas
42:17
was sort of looking at him, Wayne Barnes was like,
42:20
sure.
42:21
And then it happened twice, but then as soon as that tweak
42:23
got corrected, Wales
42:25
scrum was just utterly rampant. Like,
42:28
the Wallabies took off James Slipper at half time to try and
42:30
bring on the replacement tight head to steady
42:32
it, and it had no effect, did it? A
42:34
really dominant scrumming performance. No,
42:36
no, no, in fact, if anything, it actually got
42:38
worse in the second half. It was more
42:40
emphatic. I mean, well, this has sort
42:42
of come, as we've already touched on
42:45
from Taniel Odupo not being fit and
42:47
James Slipper, who is nominally a loose head,
42:50
switching over to tight, he can do
42:52
that. Do you really want
42:55
given that the the two positions
42:58
are distinct, do you really want
43:00
in a do or die World Cup knockout,
43:03
basically a knockout match to
43:05
be playing a loose head at tight? No,
43:08
you don't. And it killed them. It really
43:10
did. It really, you know, they couldn't get a foothold
43:12
in the game anywhere at no point. You
43:16
know, when Australia was still in
43:18
the game on the scoreboard in that first half an hour,
43:20
at least they could rely on their scrum
43:22
a bit. Admittedly, they were for technical offences
43:24
that Wales were committing at scrum
43:26
time. But you did think, oh, OK, well, if this if
43:28
they carry on like this at the scrum, the Wallabies,
43:31
they might have a chance. They might have a chance. But
43:35
it did not carry on like that. And they got
43:37
obliterated. We've now had stay in the scrum
43:39
from Wayne Barnes a couple of weeks after Cardickson
43:42
told, I think one of the Wales, too
43:44
much scrummaging and they gave a cheek. Yeah,
43:47
it'd be a prop. I mean, the final penalty camp was nine
43:49
for Wales, 12 for Australia, but it felt more like 20
43:51
for Australia with the way the last quarter played
43:54
out and how they were just getting pained for everything at the scrum
43:57
and everything else where I sort of want to just get
43:59
all the Aussie. misery out of the way and then we
44:01
can throw some deserved flowers away.
44:05
With what happened in the post-match
44:07
press conference, this
44:10
might just be me sort of speculating, but
44:12
I was about three rows away from Eddie James.
44:14
He looked a bit watery-eyed as if the momentum
44:17
of what had just happened was hitting him as
44:20
he was going through it. He
44:23
was typically defiant when asked
44:25
about a pretty sensational story and
44:27
huge congratulations to Tom Deason from the Sydney
44:29
Morning Hill for getting that out on
44:32
Sunday morning, reporting that Eddie
44:34
Jones had allegedly had an
44:36
interview to become Japan's next head coach
44:39
because that process is currently underway
44:41
by the Japanese Rugby Football Union to find
44:44
a successor for Jamie Joseph. Now
44:46
Jones fiercely denied this in the press conference
44:48
and naturally was asked about whether
44:51
the story was true, but also
44:53
the ramifications of what it had meant
44:56
for his players' mentality going into the game.
44:59
There was a question to do for Parecki,
45:01
the Wallabies captain, about how
45:03
much it had affected the players. Then Jones
45:05
responded in typical defiant fashion
45:07
with this after that Parecki question.
45:10
Sorry Eddie, just to go through it and then move
45:12
on from it, did you do a
45:14
job interview with Japanese Rugby
45:16
a couple of weeks before the World Cup?
45:19
If so, what was the thinking? I
45:21
don't know what you're talking about mate. Eddie,
45:24
do you have a second interview lined up with the JRF
45:26
year? I said I don't know what you're talking about mate.
45:29
Can you give all of his fans your absolute 100% commitment
45:32
that you will not be coach
45:33
of Japan next year? I'm
45:35
committed to coach Australia. Next
45:38
year? I'm committed to coach Australia. That's
45:40
why I'm very defended Eddie. Thank you, next question please.
45:42
Dave, this morning a story
45:45
was printed that was
45:47
very well sourced about, as you've been hearing
45:49
about maybe Eddie joining Japan
45:51
next season, next year. He's already
45:53
said it's not going to happen but I just wonder from the point of view
45:55
of your team, what
45:58
kind of psychological impact did that have on you? on you today.
46:00
We didn't turn up tonight so it's got nothing
46:02
to do with the outside noise. It's just got through with our performance.
46:05
We weren't good enough. I
46:07
really take umbrage at the questioning that
46:09
people are questioning my commitment
46:12
to coaching Australia. I really take
46:14
umbrage at it. Yeah, I've
46:17
been working non-stop since I've come
46:19
here and I apologise for the results.
46:22
I keep saying that. But to doubt my commitment
46:24
to the job I think is a bit red hot. So
46:27
we're not going to deal with any of those questions any further.
46:30
So I'm happy to talk about Wales. I'm happy to talk
46:32
about Portugal. If you want to keep going down that
46:35
line I'll excuse myself. So
46:37
do you want to decide what you want to do? I
46:39
mean you'd kind of expect him
46:41
to say something along those
46:43
lines. I just couldn't
46:46
get my head around. It turned the
46:48
whole of Sunday into a circus and almost made the
46:50
game an afterthought because all of a sudden the
46:52
focus wasn't on whether Australia could beat Wales.
46:55
It was on this Eddie story. Myself
46:57
and Elgin Orland from the Times rushed
46:59
to this fan event at
47:02
a place called Wallaby House in Leon which was meant
47:05
to be like a nice fan park where fans
47:07
could hear from Chief
47:10
Executive for War and other dignitaries
47:13
from Rugby Australia spotted Bill
47:15
Pulver there, the old chairman as
47:17
well. The whole idea was it was meant
47:19
to be like a pet rally essentially
47:22
and it turned into this 20 journalists
47:25
turning up with phones, quizzing for war,
47:27
like the sports minister spoke first. I'm not sure.
47:29
Anyone was quite
47:31
listening to what she'd say even though it was all very pertinent because
47:34
everyone just couldn't wait to ask for war about
47:36
the situation. Basically the
47:38
day turned into a bit of circus and
47:40
it's no wonder that Australia's heads went because
47:43
I think the heads of everyone else had gone by the time we got
47:45
to kick off unless you were back in Wales.
47:47
Have you ever seen body language like that from a
47:49
group of coaches during a game? Hands
47:52
over faces. You've seen anger
47:54
and obviously we've seen anger from Jones before in both
47:57
his even in charge
47:59
of England and in charge Famous
48:01
gifts, but to have that prolonged
48:04
hands-over-mouth by multiple
48:06
coaches, what do you look at? If you see that on the
48:08
big screen as a player, what are you thinking? Thinking,
48:11
jeez, yeah, we're really messing up here. These
48:14
guys think they can't help us. It
48:17
must just be totally demoralizing. It
48:20
means nothing now, but the mood that the captains
48:22
run the day before was very different and
48:24
very kind of defiant, not necessarily in the press comments,
48:26
but when the Wallabies sort of came out, they had Boombox,
48:29
playing two-pack really loud, two-pack tall eyes on me,
48:31
they could tell that the pressure was on them, they were relaxed,
48:33
they were chilled out, not in a casual
48:36
way that suggested they would lose, they just looked in
48:38
quite a good place. And then boom, that
48:40
story comes out, heads
48:43
obviously rattled as soon as they lost
48:45
the foothold in the game against Wales. It wasn't like
48:47
there was anybody on there, because we talked about the lack
48:49
of experience so much now, wasn't like there was an
48:51
on-field general who could rally them. I
48:55
think it's maybe been a little bit more defiant
48:57
since saying that story didn't affect
48:59
us, because they're not technically out yet. Fiji
49:03
could lose both of their next two games and then Australia
49:05
somehow scraped through into
49:07
a potential quarterfinal against England. I think pigs
49:09
can fly as well. I mean, telling
49:12
Lee, no denial,
49:14
no denial from Eddie, he wouldn't address
49:18
the story and sort of play dumb
49:20
almost with it, but no denial.
49:23
He did not say, no, that didn't happen,
49:25
and I will be the Wallabies coach next year, in terms
49:28
of maybe he's trying to
49:30
get ahead of the game because he thinks he might be sacked, because
49:32
as we've mentioned, this is the first time, this
49:35
is going to be the first time that Australia have failed
49:37
to progress from the pool stages at the World Cup. Also,
49:39
no denial from the Japanese Reunion who were approached yesterday,
49:43
they just refused to comment. Now, if you
49:46
were them and it absolutely didn't happen, then you
49:48
would say, wouldn't you? I don't know, am I being naive?
49:50
No, no, I think that's a fair point. To
49:53
pull back the curtain a little bit, both Charlie and
49:55
Charles texted me and said, please send us
49:57
the audio from the press conference as I was sitting
49:59
down into it. because we knew it would
50:02
be a good one. The reaction in
50:04
Australia has been as fierce
50:06
and despondent and miserable
50:09
as you might expect. Bernard Faley
50:11
was one of the people who was in
50:13
Nice I think last week was he?
50:15
So he's been in the country probably with a pair of boots
50:18
back just in case. He
50:20
tweeted for the first time in ages it didn't
50:22
have to be like this. You've had calls
50:24
for Jones to go, you've had former players
50:27
just decrying the lack of
50:29
experienced players in the squad and how unfair
50:32
it is and all these guys who were like in their mid-20s,
50:34
like one of these players who are going to be tarnished by this forever.
50:38
It's just all a bit desperate and Dan
50:40
Schofield has written a column on the
50:42
Telegraph sort of talking about
50:44
yes, like Eddie's
50:47
at fault here but there's such wide structural
50:49
issues in Australian rugby. There's
50:51
a line still going there in less than two
50:53
years. I mean I don't think
50:55
I've ever felt more sure about a 3-0 series
50:58
line to win in my entire life. I mean 3-0 and
51:00
the rest, I mean it's going
51:02
to be absolutely colossal and it does make you
51:07
wonder, I was talking with somebody about this over
51:09
the weekend, wouldn't it be beneficial?
51:13
It would never work from a commercial standpoint.
51:15
I'd rather watch three games between the lines and
51:17
Fiji in Suva or sort of
51:19
around Fiji than what is just going to
51:21
be a total drubbing in Australia.
51:24
Yeah, no I'm completely with you. Yeah,
51:27
just very, it's just an upsetting night, as
51:29
we've already touched on, a very upsetting night and
51:33
yeah, well it remains to be said, the landscape
51:37
of the sport in the country has sort
51:40
of been in recession for a number
51:42
of years anyway and this is not going to help. You
51:44
spoke to anyone who knew Australian
51:48
rugby last week, they said that that game against Wales
51:50
was absolutely massive, such
51:52
a big game, such a sort of titanic day
51:54
for the sport. in
52:00
the country and how important it is and how so momentous
52:02
for the sport to recover
52:05
and then for them to crumble like that is
52:08
just very sad. You see jibes
52:11
on social media which I know should always be taken with a pinch
52:13
of salt but also there's no smoke without
52:15
fire of how it's the fourth code
52:17
of a ball sport, of footy
52:20
in Australia. You've
52:22
got declining participation
52:25
numbers at grassroots level, you've got declining attendance
52:27
at Super Rugby. People don't really care
52:29
about Super Rugby. Yes the Wallabies' attendances
52:32
are still healthy
52:34
and seemingly the population still
52:36
get behind the Wallabies but you do fear that now
52:39
after this will the loyalty
52:41
and will the passion be
52:43
as fierce? Maybe
52:46
not. Obviously we're a long way away and
52:50
we're trying to predict the future so we have no idea but you
52:52
do fear for them a little bit don't you? We
52:54
do. You know it's bad when we all feel this bad for Australia
52:57
because they might
52:59
not necessarily feel the same way about England if
53:01
the tables were dead.
53:04
And also just as an aside I've
53:06
been the bigger man here, I've risen above the Eddie
53:10
Jones jibes. I've rarely addressed them
53:12
but I'm going to have to on this occasion just go where
53:15
are you Eddie? Whoa hey hey
53:17
hey oh my goodness
53:19
me. That's my moment in the sun. The
53:22
podcast studio is just shaking. If the mic
53:24
wasn't sort of fixed to the table I'd
53:26
drop it. You should have ripped it off and said that.
53:29
What do the Dan Cold Stone cold? Yes yes
53:32
that's something nice we'll have to talk about that.
53:35
Let's say nice things about Wales because we absolutely should
53:37
do. Charlie can I just ask you about how
53:40
impressed you were by Gareth Antsken when
53:42
he came on 12 minutes in. I mean Dan
53:44
Bigger goes down some of us wrote
53:46
really nice features about Dan Bigger in the build up
53:48
to the game so that was good
53:51
to see him go off really early with an injury.
53:54
But Gareth Antsken came in and
53:56
showed excellent control, admittedly
53:59
behind a steamroller. of a pack but he impressed.
54:02
Yeah he did, he got absolutely smoked in the air. From
54:04
that Donaldson break we were talking about, he got that interception
54:06
when Donaldson can link up with that inside support
54:08
and I think it was Cora Bette, absolutely
54:11
whack. It was one of
54:14
those really, again, like a
54:16
really demoralising moment for a player because
54:19
the ref came over and you could hear him talking,
54:21
I think it was talking with Tom Foley, the TMO,
54:23
and they were saying, is he alright? And he was like, yeah, he's just winded,
54:25
just a big hit. And it's Antcom
54:27
within a lot of bother and you
54:29
could see, I think players when they're, you could
54:32
see with the outburst of
54:34
emotion like there was for his
54:36
chip for Tompkins, Dry Tompkins, who was fantastic as
54:38
well by the way. Antcom just,
54:41
big celebration, he'd love to see that because
54:43
that's a player who's just so
54:45
much has built up to this point for him and
54:48
it must just be, feel fantastic. It did just
54:50
on that, he spoke about it in the mix and afterwards and how
54:52
he had that horrendous time out with his
54:54
knee injury, the amount of surgeries he'd
54:56
gone through and how that whole kind
54:58
of spell had just made
55:00
him have a better perspective to appreciate
55:03
the bigger moments in the game since he actually kind
55:05
of enjoyed them and he's getting taxed from home back
55:07
in New Zealand and Wales laughing at how
55:09
much he'd gone for it but he was actually like, you've just got
55:11
to appreciate it. Nice little
55:13
drop goal as well. I'm really intrigued by Wales'
55:15
attack and I wrote a piece a couple of weeks
55:17
ago that wasn't meant to be derogatory at all about
55:20
Wales' attack but linked to England's
55:22
attack which is if you can't be an Ireland and if you can't
55:24
have that intricate phase
55:26
pressure and loads of different runners and you'd be a
55:28
Wales because Wales are just very good at
55:30
getting the ball into the hands of their dangerous runners just
55:33
in quite a simple, straightforward way
55:35
which is just as incisive and they'll have
55:37
a couple of clever strikes like they did
55:40
for Gareth Davis try. Gareth Davis
55:42
is just an unbelievable support runner.
55:44
They've got a lot of good athletes, they've got
55:46
a lot of powerful players and
55:49
when they lose momentum they're not
55:51
afraid to go to the boot because they've got a good kicking game as well.
55:59
I was just wondering if that's a typical injured, who would
56:02
put it then? I was like, it could be Thomas Williams. Or
56:04
it could be Jack Morgan, because he's now,
56:06
for a flanker, come up with a lovely crossfield
56:08
assist for Reece Lamont against Fiji.
56:12
And then he's banged a, let's call it a 22-22, not
56:14
a 50-22 against Australia. Charles,
56:17
he's been, no, I wouldn't say a revelation
56:20
of the tournament, because I think people were appreciating
56:23
how good he was. But given where he sort
56:25
of, I mean, Warren Gatlin admitted afterwards, I
56:28
kind of threw him in the deep end a little
56:30
bit, Jack Morgan. But actually, he's thriving
56:32
in on, I thought, on Sunday night
56:35
when he was sort of, you know, bloodied nose, tackling
56:38
everything, scoring chives, he looked
56:40
great, didn't he, Charles? Absolutely, total warrior,
56:42
the beating heart of that Welsh team, has
56:45
really stepped up as captain. You know, all
56:48
the cliches about leading from the front are all,
56:50
you know, completely justified for him. But it's
56:52
not just the leadership, it's the fact that he's an
56:54
outstanding player as well. Virtually
56:56
the first player on the team sheet, and, yeah,
56:59
caused Australia. And
57:01
Fiji, he was amazing against Fiji as well,
57:03
and he was brilliant in the warm-ups. Yeah,
57:06
I mean, he looks, not,
57:08
few had high hopes for Wales in this tournament, but
57:10
I think through sort of sheer
57:13
grit and determination, embodied
57:15
by skipper Morgan, captain Jack, you
57:18
know, they really could be looking at a semi-final.
57:21
That siege mentality that Warren Gatlin,
57:24
I know, loves, seems to be, seems to
57:26
be installed there, they're looking very promising. Right, we're going to
57:28
get into the rest of the weekend's action now, including
57:31
how England get on against Chile up
57:33
in Lille.
57:37
Right, Charlie, how many tries for Henry Arendelle in Lille? Five. To
57:41
put in top of the triscoring
57:43
list of the whole tournament. Outrageous. Outrageous.
57:46
You were there, as we know from your taxi
57:48
adventures, can you give us an idea of, first
57:51
of all, what the atmosphere was like, because I think
57:53
we've seen quite a few Chile fans have travelled over. How
57:55
was that? Yeah, before the game, really cool to see
57:57
loads of Condoros fans. their
58:00
team rewarded them in the first 20 minutes, didn't
58:02
they? England blew a
58:04
few chances as it's kind of become a trend
58:07
and invited pressure
58:09
upon themselves. But as Steve
58:12
Boffert mentioned afterwards, they were resilient in defence and
58:14
they were pretty quick with
58:16
the ball, quick to move the ball and tap for that first 20 minutes.
58:18
It actually, I'm freeing them to score 71
58:21
points in effectively an hour, is
58:23
actually pretty impressive to be fair. No,
58:27
it was quite a nice atmosphere, a few more
58:29
empty seats around the middle sort
58:31
of tier
58:33
which was quite odd, but generally
58:35
quite a nice atmosphere and
58:38
then when those sort of jitters
58:40
of the first 20 minutes had gone, England
58:43
settled in quite nicely. We've
58:46
had glimpses of Marcus
58:48
Smith at full back
58:49
during the warm-ups and
58:51
briefly in the World Cup so far when this was his first
58:54
start there. I appreciate
58:56
that maybe the quality of the opposition might
58:59
factor into your thinking about it and whether it's
59:01
a long-term ploy, but can you
59:03
see England
59:05
using that in the knockout stages and is that
59:07
actually quite a valuable weapon for them to have? I can,
59:09
I really like it. I think he's more,
59:12
certainly more likely to play at full
59:14
back than Henry Arendelle is on the wing.
59:16
To be clear, Henry Arendelle's fourth try was a
59:18
really nice finish. I think
59:20
that the chip and chase, that was, I think Dan
59:23
Cole's scoring the other four, to be honest. Maybe
59:25
not the fifth, but certainly a few of the others. The
59:29
third he ran on to a grubber as well, which
59:32
I don't think Dan Cole's outpacing anybody either,
59:37
but no, you know what I mean. I
59:39
think Smith is more likely to play at full back than Henry
59:42
Arendelle is playing on the wing in a big game
59:45
and I like it. It's not just I know
59:47
there are just caveats rounding the line. It's just
59:50
really boring to keep saying yeah, but the
59:52
plan against this team. But Smith has now gone well
59:55
against Ireland, against Fiji, against Japan
59:57
and now against Chile. And it's not necessarily
59:59
that he's going to He is beating players and
1:00:01
he is picking off kind of tired
1:00:03
defences against the worst team. But
1:00:06
it's as much of a mindset as anything. It's this urgency
1:00:08
and this awareness to play for space and help
1:00:10
there. He was saying he's
1:00:12
classically sort of
1:00:16
self-deprecating afterwards, but he said, look,
1:00:18
I've just got to tell those guys inside me that I want the
1:00:20
ball. Him having that urgency
1:00:23
can transform, that sort of urgency can transform
1:00:25
an attack and I think he's doing a good job
1:00:27
of that. And if it is only an option
1:00:30
off the bench, whether England go 6-2 or 5-3, I think it can
1:00:34
be really valuable. Who were, sorry,
1:00:36
I was just going to say Charles, who else kind of stood out
1:00:38
in that game that would maybe,
1:00:40
who wasn't in the team that played, I wasn't
1:00:43
teaming in Japan, who might have done enough
1:00:45
for the force of re-thing? Well I think that
1:00:47
the big sort of positives were, I was
1:00:49
on player ratings and I gave Arendelle Smith,
1:00:51
Theo Dan, Jack Willis and Owen Farrell
1:00:53
eight. I think
1:00:54
Farrell's return was a positive. I
1:00:56
think Willis has slid
1:00:59
down the pecking order so it's a real positive
1:01:01
that he's gone well. Like to see him on the bench,
1:01:03
I think. Yeah, well they're the big games. Well
1:01:06
for Smith, if Smith
1:01:08
is a live option, which we believe he is for bigger
1:01:11
games, and is a really,
1:01:13
that's a tactic that lends
1:01:15
itself to a 6-2 and if you're loading Willis
1:01:18
as well as another back rower, it's just a way
1:01:20
that England get the best out of the squad they've got
1:01:23
and the squad they've got is characterised by
1:01:25
positional flexibility, so that lends itself
1:01:28
to 6-2 and a lot of good back
1:01:30
five forwards. I'm going to slightly put
1:01:32
a dampener and I don't mean to be contrary
1:01:35
for the sake of it and grumpy and cynical, but
1:01:38
just in the opening 20 I think that,
1:01:41
I think Smith did butcher a couple of overlaps, he'll
1:01:43
be very disappointed with and I think that it's
1:01:45
easy to get lost in the hype
1:01:47
and lost in all the good stuff that he did,
1:01:50
but I think those two, if you're
1:01:52
butchering opportunities like that in a quarter-final or a
1:01:54
semi-final, that's verging on unforgivable and
1:01:56
I think that that will count against him maybe. Well you're only
1:01:58
getting one or two of those. in the quarter-final, aren't
1:02:00
you? So yeah, you need to take them. Right.
1:02:04
But if we are sort of doing the backline
1:02:06
thing, I mean, I would keep Stuart, I think, and
1:02:09
I would have Smith on the bench, and I would keep
1:02:11
Stuart. And I personally would have Arendelle. I
1:02:14
know we think it's unlikely, given
1:02:18
how well May's gone and sort
1:02:20
of how well he suits the
1:02:22
way that England want to play, but I think I would have
1:02:24
Arendelle. I think I'd start Stuart at 15,
1:02:26
just because I think that solidity at the back in
1:02:29
the bigger matches is very valuable.
1:02:31
And again, especially
1:02:33
with how England want to play, which is very kick-heavy,
1:02:36
having him there is
1:02:38
very handy. And I think
1:02:40
that if you went Ford Farrell, which I would go Ford
1:02:42
Farrell, and I think they're certainly leaning towards Ford
1:02:45
Farrell at 10-12, Smith at 15
1:02:47
is sort of playmaking overkill, isn't it? I would
1:02:49
have. Other than those wingers, I would
1:02:51
say I didn't mean to totally kind of cast
1:02:54
the thought of picking Arendelle out there. I think
1:02:56
he would be, I would like to see either one
1:02:59
of him march. It seems
1:03:01
to me like, unless they stick with Daley, which
1:03:03
he's a real safety
1:03:05
blanket as far as the positioning and the aerial
1:03:10
exchanges, the kicking exchanges. But I
1:03:12
think if England are really looking to lift
1:03:14
their ceiling, they'll probably want two
1:03:17
of Arendelle, Marchant or Daley.
1:03:20
Why is that fair to say? Yeah, I mean, it sounds like
1:03:22
he's pushing with Dan Cole on the wing. Yeah, I mean,
1:03:24
I'd have Marchant and Arendelle on the wings, Lawrence
1:03:26
at 13 as an out and out
1:03:30
threat at 13 with Ford and Farrell, 10-12, and
1:03:33
then I'd have Smith and Daley with Youngs on the bench
1:03:35
because that brings something different off the
1:03:37
bench and you've got a lot of positional reflectability there.
1:03:39
And I'd also have, like you said, and like we've just discussed,
1:03:42
Dan, Willis, Martin, these guys who played
1:03:44
very well coming off the bench and
1:03:47
attempting to wreak havoc. I thought
1:03:49
Chesham off the bench looked very good as well again.
1:03:52
He's becoming very important, quietly important
1:03:54
to this team, I think. He was in the
1:03:56
warm-ups, he was obviously coming back off a very
1:03:59
long time.
1:03:59
and was still finding his
1:04:02
feet a little bit, I think
1:04:04
he's been very very good in this tournament so far. Just
1:04:06
to finish off on England, Dan Scanford
1:04:09
had a good story about Arendelle's availability
1:04:12
long term because he's joined the United
1:04:14
team in France and obviously that always gets a bit tricky
1:04:17
with the logistics of when he's eligible and when he
1:04:19
isn't particularly given that the RFU
1:04:21
have quite rightly allowed the
1:04:23
players who are part of the country winning to administration
1:04:25
to be selected.
1:04:26
While they're based on France, Arendelle can play
1:04:28
in the Six Nations, why is it rapping?
1:04:31
But he, as things stand, he
1:04:33
will not be available for the summer tour to Japan and
1:04:36
New Zealand. So I wonder
1:04:38
whether, I think for the World Cup, it's
1:04:40
such a short term thing, you just pick who you
1:04:42
think is best for the World Cup, they won't be thinking about the long
1:04:44
term. But it will be interesting when it gets to
1:04:46
Six Nations time whether they think,
1:04:49
well, you're not going to be around in New Zealand this
1:04:51
summer, whether they still pick him or whether they don't.
1:04:54
That's something that we'll have to keep an
1:04:56
eye on next spring.
1:04:56
France against Namibia
1:04:59
on Thursday night was
1:05:01
all going along fairly nicely and everyone
1:05:04
was just checking their fancy points
1:05:06
for Damion Penno and then there
1:05:08
was a, sorry Charlie, can
1:05:11
you express that group as the inaudible? I
1:05:13
don't want to talk about it but I didn't have it. I had
1:05:16
Jalibare, I captained up Jalibare. Do you not
1:05:18
have Penno at all? No. Wow.
1:05:21
Or Arendelle. I'm not
1:05:23
sure. I'm not sure. That's how you say
1:05:25
it. So yeah, it was all going well and then Jairon
1:05:28
Duesle, he caught Antoine
1:05:30
Dupont on the cheek and France. France
1:05:32
went into meltdown on Thursday night
1:05:34
and into Friday morning. Charles, can you just give us
1:05:37
the latest on what's going on
1:05:39
with Antoine Dupont, when might he return
1:05:42
and will he have anything interesting
1:05:44
on his face when he does? Well this
1:05:46
is the million dollar question, isn't it? The latest
1:05:49
is that he's back with the squad
1:05:51
on Thursday. He'll return to
1:05:53
camp. He's currently at home
1:05:55
resting. He had surgery late on Friday
1:05:58
night. and
1:06:00
they're expecting him to return to training on Sunday,
1:06:03
which is really quite miraculous. That is, if he
1:06:05
continues showing those signs of concussion, because
1:06:07
obviously there's the cheek fracture at play here,
1:06:10
but there's obviously an HIA and a concussion
1:06:12
protocol and return to play protocol that he must follow
1:06:14
as well, because it was a really strong blow
1:06:17
to the face. And then
1:06:19
on Friday, he will go for an appointment
1:06:21
to explore the possibility of
1:06:23
having a Haranordike-style
1:06:26
mask fitted, which
1:06:28
presumably he will play with to
1:06:31
expedite his return to action potentially
1:06:33
for a quarterfinal is what the latest
1:06:35
reports in France are. They're saying that he's out of
1:06:38
the Italy game, which I think we all sort of
1:06:40
expected, which is still quite big
1:06:42
news, because as we've already mentioned, France have
1:06:44
to win that game, and they will have to win that
1:06:47
game now without their captain and their
1:06:49
talisman at scrim half, and Maxime Leuchou
1:06:52
is seemingly destined to start at scrim
1:06:54
half there, and then they might
1:06:56
even be without him for a quarterfinal against
1:06:58
potentially South Africa. But the hope is with
1:07:00
mask, he might be back for a quarter,
1:07:03
and I think it's looking very,
1:07:06
very, very likely that he'll be back for a semi
1:07:09
if France get there. That's your round up. Let's
1:07:11
get into your readers questions.
1:07:16
Thank you very much for your questions. As ever,
1:07:18
please do just send them in to us over on, oh,
1:07:21
I hate calling it X. Let's just
1:07:23
send them to us on Twitter on Sundays and
1:07:25
Mondays. I promise we will consider
1:07:27
them all carefully and then use them in the
1:07:29
podcast. Once we start with one that we had from
1:07:31
Mike, and he said, all this chat about Stuart or Smith,
1:07:34
how likely do you think it is that we see them on the field
1:07:36
together,
1:07:37
changing roles depending on circumstance? There
1:07:39
was a period, Charlie, where we were quite keen on pretty, Stuart,
1:07:42
as a winger, wasn't there? Oh, wait, were we keen
1:07:44
on it, or were England keen on it? I can't. I
1:07:47
don't mind it. Stuart and Slade
1:07:50
and Farrell and Smith were all on the pitch together
1:07:52
with Slade at fullback, I think, in
1:07:54
that last, in the finale of the game against New Zealand,
1:07:56
certainly possible the one reservation
1:07:59
I'd have. with it is
1:08:01
your defensive setup is going to be compromised
1:08:03
somehow even if it's with the backfield
1:08:05
and we saw messing around with the backfield what's just
1:08:08
stuck in my mind potentially because it's the best bit of
1:08:10
skill I think I've ever seen live is Antoine's
1:08:12
epence, left foot is 50-22, that
1:08:14
was when England were trying to muck around with the backfield a bit. So
1:08:17
there
1:08:18
are, they're going to
1:08:20
be sort of, trade offs England are going to have to
1:08:22
make everywhere to get the backline they
1:08:24
want, it's just about being smart. And I don't
1:08:26
think, I don't think Stuart is against the big
1:08:29
four nations, I think in a semi-final I don't think Stuart's
1:08:31
quick enough, I think they're back three, they're back three will
1:08:33
exploit him. He's quick enough to play fullback
1:08:35
and I'm not saying he's slow but if you look at the sort
1:08:37
of back threes of the other nations you look at the the
1:08:40
Colby Arendtzer, you look at France
1:08:42
who have got Penno and BLB are
1:08:44
a I don't think, I think they could
1:08:46
skin Stuart. They could skin Stuart.
1:08:48
Just to combine two
1:08:50
questions we had from one from Worcester
1:08:52
Faithful and another from Lance Browning who's the former,
1:08:55
the Gloucester Chief Exact, just basically both getting
1:08:57
at the same thing, how do we sort
1:08:59
of reduce these mismatches that
1:09:02
we're occasionally seeing where teams are getting pumped
1:09:04
by loads of points and also make sure that we're
1:09:06
giving the lights of Portugal and Georgia and
1:09:08
Spain and the other teams regular
1:09:10
game time by coming up with
1:09:13
a new tournament or more matches, what's your
1:09:15
solution Charlie? I think first it's dangerous to say that
1:09:17
it's been a
1:09:19
completely positive tournament for the emerging
1:09:21
nations because Romania and Namibia
1:09:23
have been disappointing. It's kind of Fiji
1:09:25
and Uruguay isn't it? Yeah, for sure. Portugal
1:09:27
as well although they, you know, although as we
1:09:30
said earlier that draw with Georgia isn't a massively
1:09:32
shock result. I think it's time certainly to
1:09:35
have a coherent strategy around it and whether
1:09:37
because it seems a bit haphazard whereby
1:09:39
the sort of positive things like the Fiji-Druer
1:09:42
side and the Moana-Pacifica side in
1:09:44
Super Rugby aren't necessarily part
1:09:46
of a wider plan or they don't seem to
1:09:48
be, maybe I'm being
1:09:49
unfair there.
1:09:50
So one positive
1:09:53
thing that keeps coming back on these
1:09:55
T2 Rugby on Twitter that's a sort of major advocate
1:09:57
of it is that it's just expanding that end of the tournament.
1:10:00
the six
1:10:02
nations competition. So those
1:10:05
teams in the Rugby Europe Championship can have
1:10:08
a grounding at age group level because that's
1:10:10
just gonna
1:10:12
be positive. It's gonna pay it forward,
1:10:14
hopefully. You'd hope that. And the age-old
1:10:16
thing as well, that always, you know, is the classic,
1:10:18
the cliche, that always rears its head, is
1:10:20
promotion and relegation to the six nations in some form,
1:10:23
even if that involves a playoff. They
1:10:25
are, the home nations and France
1:10:28
and Italy are staunchly against it. We are told
1:10:30
and we're told it's not gonna happen, but it's just such a surefire
1:10:33
way to ensure that, certainly
1:10:35
in Europe, anyway, in Europe, that those
1:10:37
emerging nations get, sort
1:10:39
of, that they have something to play for and they have a carrot,
1:10:42
a reason to improve and to continue
1:10:45
to this trajectory of improvement, which
1:10:47
has been mightily impressive. You know, you look at where
1:10:49
Portugal were and where they are now, and
1:10:52
certainly, you know, Spain had often
1:10:54
forgotten about in this because obviously they were booted
1:10:56
out of the tournament because they feel an ineligible player.
1:10:59
But they are beneath
1:11:02
Georgia, they're the emerging nation. They are the coming
1:11:04
nation. The club scene
1:11:07
there is thriving. And
1:11:09
the national team have seen vast, vast improvements and
1:11:12
they should really be at this World Cup in
1:11:14
place of Romania. So
1:11:16
that's the way, these nations need
1:11:19
more competitive fixtures against
1:11:23
better nations more regularly. I would open
1:11:25
it up, the World Cup, up to 24 teams as well. I
1:11:28
would be an advocate of that because the
1:11:30
main drawback seems that we get more hideings,
1:11:32
more thrashings, but we're getting them anyway now
1:11:34
with 20. So why not give
1:11:37
these teams some exposure, more
1:11:39
exposure, more exposure to high level rugby. I know
1:11:41
they need it between the tournaments as well,
1:11:43
but let's start somewhere, you know.
1:11:46
Might be one for our post-group stage, kind of
1:11:48
deep dive into the tournament so we could spend about half an hour
1:11:50
trying to work out how to fix
1:11:52
that. And just a final question from John about the All
1:11:54
Blacks who we haven't spoken about because they've
1:11:57
had a bit of time off and they've kind of been
1:11:59
able to watch our... in South Africa from
1:12:01
afar and he says,
1:12:04
they'll be a full strength through Italy so we're waiting to see their
1:12:06
intensity. No one's really talking about them.
1:12:09
What can we kind of expect from them? I
1:12:11
spoke to a couple of Kiwi journalists who were at the Wales
1:12:13
Australia game who were quite
1:12:15
downbeat actually on just
1:12:17
whether New Zealand have enough
1:12:20
to really trouble Ireland and South Africa and France,
1:12:22
which actually made me
1:12:25
take a bit of a step back because I'd sort of been wondering about
1:12:28
whether they were a threat. Charlie, what do you
1:12:30
think? To steal someone else's opinion
1:12:32
a little bit again, the, I was with Stuart
1:12:34
Barnes for a little bit of last weekend and he said
1:12:36
the difference with this A-B's team versus
1:12:39
previous iterations is that they've got
1:12:41
a horrible 15 minutes or 20
1:12:43
minutes in them, whereas other All
1:12:45
Blacks teams didn't have that and I think that's
1:12:47
fairly pertinent when you think about how they collapsed against
1:12:49
England for example at Tukinam. I
1:12:51
keep thinking about how they picked
1:12:54
apart South Africa in Auckland
1:12:56
fairly recently and how that can be their sort
1:12:58
of ceiling. However, they've
1:13:00
probably got more chunks in
1:13:02
their armour than other previous
1:13:05
sides. I agree with John that
1:13:07
the Italy game's gonna be quite interesting.
1:13:10
They're missing Ethan DeGroote for that, which is a big
1:13:12
loss and I agree
1:13:15
that Ireland will have to be 100% on for
1:13:17
that quarterfinal because there'll
1:13:19
be a bit of simmering resentment from New Zealand
1:13:21
about that series that kicked Ireland into
1:13:24
gear, but at the minute you'd say Ireland were kind
1:13:26
of fairly significant favourites, wouldn't you? And you'd
1:13:28
wanna see a bit more from New Zealand before
1:13:30
that quarterfinal.
1:13:31
Right, that's it for today. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you,
1:13:33
Charles. And a big thanks to Pete Wilkins as well for his
1:13:35
insight on Bandiaki in Ireland. There's
1:13:38
no game for England or Ireland all Wales
1:13:40
this weekend, so a bit of a quieter weekend
1:13:43
on the horizon, but still lots of games, still plenty to
1:13:45
keep up with from the Rugby World Cup on the website, so please
1:13:48
keep an eye out for all of our work and all of the work of
1:13:50
our colleagues as well. There's gonna be lots to dive into. Enjoy
1:13:53
all the action. We'll catch you next week, but until
1:13:55
then, thank you and goodbye.
1:14:00
you
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