0:01

The Telegraph, podcasts.

0:14

Hello again everyone, I hope the feast of Rugby

0:16

World Cup action has kept you thoroughly entertained

0:18

over the weekend. You are joined once again

0:21

by Charlie Morgan. Alright Charlie. Morning Colesy.

0:23

And you're joined by Charles Richardson. Alright Charles.

0:26

Morning Ben. And I'm Ben Coles. The

0:28

three of us are here ready to unpack some fascinating games,

0:31

in particular, Islands of Africa on Saturday

0:33

in Paris, what a belter, and also Wales

0:36

Australia in Lyon on Sunday. Gents, where

0:38

were you? I was in and out of Lille.

0:41

Sorry, I jumped in there. That's how

0:43

quick you were. He loves Lille.

0:44

And it grew on me. It grew

0:46

on me. This is how pathetically

0:49

easy I am to manipulate. I arrived

0:51

in the sort of dreary weather, thought why am I

0:53

away from the south coast? But

0:56

then it grew on me over the weekend. A few

0:59

nice squares, nice bit

1:01

of interaction with fans in and around the

1:03

city. Cool stadium, nearly died

1:05

on the cab ride over there but once got

1:07

there, lovely. Tell us more. Just

1:11

a bit of naughty swerving across lanes

1:13

when

1:14

the driver didn't see the exit but we got

1:16

there fine. How much cheese? Loads

1:19

of cheese, mainly for breakfast now actually. I've pivoted.

1:22

Is that something that you've continued in England?

1:25

Yeah, being really, really, not in England, no, but I've been consistent

1:27

when I've been over there for sure. I

1:30

was in Lyon, had lovely three days there actually.

1:32

Good fun on Saturday night,

1:34

well done to all the Wales

1:36

and Australian fans who sort of packed into

1:38

this bit of Lyon with the

1:41

local cultural highlights like Little Welsh Beer

1:43

Bar

1:44

and King Arthur's Pub. You really

1:46

pushed the boat out and found local French places and

1:48

you had a nice time. No, it was great atmosphere

1:51

in Lyon on a Saturday night and yeah, fun

1:53

game on Sunday. Speaking of highlights

1:55

from the weekend, Charles

1:58

I'll come to you first, give me a highlight.

4:00

Matt Canson, Bundy Yaki

4:03

who has just been a revelation this this tournament

4:05

but also he spent a bit of time in the

4:07

island camp last year for the New Zealand

4:09

tour that actually started this run of 16

4:12

wins that they're on and I just kind of wanted

4:14

to speak to him a little bit about the

4:16

mentality within that within that camp

4:19

the blend of personalities if

4:21

you think about people like Andy Farrell and Paula

4:23

Connell are two of the most magnetic charismatic

4:26

guys in the sport over

4:29

the last few years and just how

4:31

that all works together and he was really interesting

4:33

on that because speaking speaking

4:35

from a coaches point of view he was saying that you

4:38

get real progress when it's a camp

4:40

that is prepared with individuals

4:42

within it who are prepared to challenge each other on

4:45

ideas and that was a big thing

4:47

that came away from what Pete was saying it was really interesting

4:49

stuff. And with Aki in particular we'll

4:52

chat more about him later but the fact that he

4:54

was kind of struggling to form a bit maybe

4:56

a year ago and not necessarily in

4:59

in Ireland's reckoning and not actually struggling to

5:01

get a game time for Connell as well just shows

5:03

what a fantastic turnaround it's been. Yeah

5:06

absolutely and undoubted first trust

5:08

me we had a discussion last week as to who island might pick

5:10

in the centres for this game and I think we all went Aki

5:13

completely obviously completely vindicated

5:15

that decision to start Aki alongside

5:18

Ringrose and have Henshaw on the bench obviously Henshaw

5:20

himself is a fabulous player but Aki is sort

5:22

of at the minute if you're picking a world 15

5:24

he's about 12 I can't

5:26

think of any but maybe him and Dontee would be competing

5:29

for an inside centre spot in a world 15 yeah just

5:32

what a what a renaissance from him. Yeah

5:34

it really has been great fun to watch actually loads

5:37

of good content on the website at the moment including Charlie

5:40

in great detail picking through Australia's

5:43

miserable night in Leon on Sunday

5:45

which I'm sure you did with absolutely no pleasure To

5:48

be fair that's a pervading feeling I think

5:50

people people were saying sort of online while they

5:52

were watching it this is just a bit sad.

5:55

Sad is the word. From around the 60 minute

5:58

mark we're gonna get into the game in more detail But

6:00

from around the 16-minute market, it was just

6:02

such an inevitable unraveling of

6:04

an inexperienced side who aren't very well

6:06

coached that Missing

6:08

some of their best players. Mmm. It was low

6:11

having said that You know Wales deserve

6:13

a lot of credit and hopefully even though that the

6:15

headline piece is pretty brutal There's

6:18

some it highlights some positive

6:20

things that Wales did as well I mean, it was a complete Australian

6:23

abomination wasn't it from from the 60th minute that

6:25

you're right unraveling is a really a really

6:27

really good word I mean there was But

6:31

you say from the 60th minute. I must admit

6:33

having watched that game from the first or the fifth

6:35

minute I didn't think Australia were gonna win I mean Eddie

6:37

had spoken about how how important

6:40

a positive fast start was for them and the opposite

6:42

happened They give away a penalty at the opening rug

6:44

didn't they with Dave Precke not rolling away?

6:47

And then at halftime, it was the same again They

6:49

got Australia got turned over from

6:52

the from the restart from the kickoff Held

6:54

up from the kick and it just it was it was a really

6:57

really sorry night and yeah It's

6:59

not nice to see actually it's it's nice

7:01

to see Wales You know sort

7:03

of proving some doubt is wrong But it's

7:05

not nice to see how far Australia have fallen

7:08

You know a lot of us will have very fond memories of

7:10

Australian rugby teams Look at the world

7:12

champions in 91 99 84 wallabies

7:15

one of the greatest teams of all time With

7:17

with with legends throughout and to

7:19

see where they are now basically a rabble I

7:22

mean, I know they were missing their two best players who are Not

7:25

my meaning to bang the world 15 trim again who

7:27

are they are touching world 15 status,

7:29

you know Tanya LaTuba and Will Skelton. I know they

7:31

were missing them but even so If

7:35

that if missing those two players meant that we

7:38

that we lose You know that they lose

7:40

that game to Wales and I think that's something that most

7:42

people could swallow But to lose in the manner that they did

7:44

they shouldn't be losing like that Yeah, we'll

7:46

unpack it a bit more later in the episode a couple

7:49

of columns as well on Eddie Jones Bizarre

7:51

situation after that news broke about him reportedly

7:54

having an interview with Japan Fianna

7:56

Thomas was down at Sandy Park see how the red roses go

7:58

on as well. So loads on the website have a look at. But

8:01

let's start our episode by diving a little

8:03

bit deeper into what was a cracking

8:05

game between Ireland and South Africa.

8:10

We hoped it would be a blockbuster in Paris. It

8:13

always was probably the fixture that we circled

8:16

when the draw was kind of made and looked

8:18

to when they were going to be playing each other. We were

8:21

probably the most excited by defending champions,

8:24

number one team in the world and Charles, we got...

8:26

we sort of belted, didn't

8:28

we? I mean, it sort of had everything that you would

8:30

have wanted that game to have, I think. Absolutely did. I mean, there

8:33

are very, very few criticisms that

8:36

I can level at the game as a whole, taking

8:39

all the different elements that we would dissect and

8:41

digest. I thought Ben O'Keefe, the

8:45

referee's job nowadays is very, very difficult and I know

8:47

he's had a lot of... copped a lot of flack. I

8:49

think that just happens now in big games. I just think that

8:51

is... that's just part of the course

8:54

now. But personally, I really

8:56

think that at the minute with the state that rugby union's

8:58

in, if the referee's not deciding

9:01

the outcome of the match, if there's not deciding the result,

9:03

then I think they've probably had a good game and I don't

9:05

think Ben O'Keefe decided the result of that game. I

9:08

was happy with his performance. I think there's probably a couple

9:10

of things that he might think

9:12

that he got wrong, but that's probably the case in every

9:14

single rugby match that's ever taken place. And

9:17

the two teams themselves were phenomenal.

9:19

You looked at Ireland. Ireland

9:21

looked a bit shell-shocked in the first 10. South

9:23

Africa came storming out the blocks. The

9:26

line-out went completely to pieces. Ireland's

9:28

line-out went completely to pieces. But then they

9:30

shored everything up and that is a sign of a good team, isn't it?

9:32

You know, backs on the ropes,

9:35

shoring it up, finding a way to win and actually

9:37

not just sort of grinding out a victory

9:39

either. They say that sort of good

9:42

teams can win even when they're playing poorly.

9:44

Well, this wasn't even the case. They still played well. They

9:47

played some lovely rugby. You know, we had Sexton's

9:50

timing of the pass to Aki often at 12

9:52

was just sublime. Like, it couldn't have been

9:54

better. And I

9:56

mean, you're looking at Aki against Dale Ende there

9:59

and I mean, Dale Ende played well. one of his best matches for

10:01

a good while and even so was still

10:03

sort of outplayed by Aki. It was an awesome,

10:06

awesome contest and if we saw it again

10:08

I don't think anyone would be unhappy. Really interesting

10:10

point on the refereeing. So I bumped into a bit of a

10:12

clang here. I bumped into Alid Walters at Leal

10:14

Station on my way back and one of the first things he said

10:17

was, what'd you think of that last mall turnover?

10:19

I actually said to him, I mean

10:21

I probably made a bit of an idiot myself, but I'd said to him,

10:23

well the thing about playing the box is all

10:26

of those contest areas are so

10:28

ferociously contested that you

10:30

sort of can be wrong both ways or you can be

10:33

right both ways and then realise I'm chatting to a guy

10:35

that coached the box for the last World Cup

10:37

and then I sort of realised at the end of my point, you

10:39

know, that's better than me. But no,

10:41

that was, I thought, I agree with you. I think you're

10:43

always going to be able to catalogue a load of things that

10:45

referees do wrong

10:48

in games because that's the nature of it, especially

10:51

more so heightened when South Africa team

10:53

that based, there's an amazing clip I think from the Chasing

10:55

the Sun documentary where Rosier

10:57

Azimah says, I don't want you to get into 80 contests

10:59

and win 60, I want you to get into 100 and 120 and win,

11:02

you know, win 90. And with

11:04

every player on the pitch doing that in that mindset

11:07

then it's absolutely, it's absolutely going to be difficult

11:09

for those officials and I thought O'Keefe put himself

11:12

in a good position to get a big

11:14

knockout game later on in the tournament. What

11:16

I found about the

11:18

game sort of more so

11:21

was thinking about it in the context of the whole tournament

11:23

and I kept thinking back to South Africa losing the

11:26

first game of the last World Cup against New Zealand

11:28

and now almost more so that

11:30

because they've won the last one, they're a team that won't

11:33

take too downhearted about losing

11:35

a game that essentially doesn't matter because they

11:37

get France rather than New Zealand, but it

11:40

doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, they've still got to keep

11:42

winning all the way to the final. And I think those

11:44

subplots, so they didn't maul hardly

11:46

at all until the end. They're 100% doing

11:48

that in more important games.

11:52

There's just a few wrinkles. They won't go 7-1

11:54

again, I don't think, just because they

11:57

give themselves a look. Certainly Pollard will come back into

11:59

their gun 23. and they'll give themselves a little bit

12:01

more leeway because with the 7-1 they couldn't change

12:03

up their back line at all until the end because that's

12:05

too much of a risk. I

12:08

just found it really, really interesting knowing that

12:10

those sides knew that they could probably meet

12:12

again. Yeah. Because, and if you think, if

12:14

you talk about islands, sorry, if you talk about South

12:16

Africa's miskicks off the T, you have to talk

12:19

about island gaffing the line out. The

12:21

things that both sides will be, will

12:25

know that they can improve and that's what's so exciting. I'm

12:28

very nervous that the Telegraph will be podcasting the line out

12:30

because we've bigged it up against how it went against

12:32

Tonga and how effective it was to launch all their

12:35

attacking routes and they lost the first four, didn't they,

12:37

which was a bit of a mess. Absolutely. And

12:40

on the goal kicking, I've written about this. Manny Libet played beautifully

12:42

at Fly Half. Razi Erasmus made this

12:44

point in the post-match interview about

12:48

how excellent he was and people who were saying

12:50

that Andre Pollard should have started. Well, Erasmus made

12:52

the point that A, he wasn't 100% fit. And

12:55

B,

12:55

how do you know that, with how

12:58

well Libet played with the ball in his hand, how

13:00

do you know that we would have got to those positions

13:03

to win those penalties,

13:05

to win those kickable penalties if Pollard had

13:07

played? We might have been losing by more. You

13:10

know, you can't say, oh, the

13:12

goal kick has lost us the game because he missed

13:14

six points. You know, that just doesn't

13:16

work. It's just basic chaos theory. There

13:19

is, there is so many other variables

13:21

at play. Who's to say if Libet

13:23

could kick those three points, the island wouldn't have gone down the other

13:25

end and scored a try. You know, you just can't, you

13:28

can't boil it down to that. And

13:32

there is no shame, there is no shame whatsoever

13:34

for South Africa, for the Springboks to come within five

13:36

points and five metres of

13:39

beating or not losing to the

13:42

World's Number One ranked team in the ball stages of the World

13:44

Cup. They won't, they won't be down, they won't be sort

13:46

of dispirited by that at all, I don't think. No, I think that's

13:48

fair. I think you're kind of pleased in

13:51

some ways if you're both sides because there's stuff

13:53

there that you can rectify within

13:55

time for the knockout stages when it really matters. At

13:57

the same time, I don't think there was too much damage.

14:00

to be the team off the top of my head in terms

14:02

of injuries or knocks. I just wanted to mention Andrew

14:04

Porter's performance. He was fantastic for

14:06

Ireland and the way he's

14:09

one of many players who have kicked on in the last two

14:12

or three years within this team. They

14:15

play such an efficient brand of rugby Ireland and

14:17

he's certainly a big part of that with how he contributes

14:19

from a rut clear out and a carrying

14:21

and attacking perspective. He went 75 minutes

14:24

I thought as well. He's going pretty well as

14:26

well. I thought he was one of the standout

14:28

performers. What about James Loe tackle

14:30

on Eximeth as well? Why are we talking about the standout

14:32

performance? He's just... James Loe's defence,

14:35

full stop. He got a jackal turn over the knee. That

14:38

was obviously a big work on for him. I

14:40

think he's been totally open about

14:42

saying that and he was out of the side briefly

14:44

because of that. We led to believe. So

14:47

yeah, all the game. That's

14:49

his first time he's played to the African as well

14:51

which is quite cool. Quite a nice way to

14:53

get off the mark. I just wondered if it changed

14:55

anything you felt about in

14:57

terms of eventual

15:00

winners of this tournament and whether

15:02

watching South Africa wobble slightly

15:05

but not majorly or Ireland

15:07

putting away South Africa with kind of a statement World

15:09

Cup win in a way, whether that had made you,

15:12

Charlie, feel a bit differently about who might win it all. It

15:14

made me think Ireland are more likely to

15:16

now although having been on the South

15:18

Africa bandwagon for a long

15:21

time. The only way it went I

15:23

think was the hooker situation and how I

15:25

think if I was one of those grandmas I'd be worried

15:27

in training because

15:30

I think as soon as one of those, if there's a

15:32

hint of an injury to one of those we might see is Joseph

15:34

Dwebber would be the next... Yeah,

15:37

because I just think that gives them a little bit more

15:39

solidity but then again the South African coaching

15:42

team is extremely, he's been around the block,

15:45

they're extremely street wise and

15:47

they'll know various ways as to how they can get

15:49

over the line. So I'm still high on South

15:52

Africa but I'm a little bit higher on Ireland.

15:59

in the opposition but that continued against Africa

16:02

where he was

16:03

sensational. So to hear a bit more about him

16:05

and about Matt Hanson, we're going to hear from Pete

16:07

Wilkins at Connell who spoke to Charlie earlier

16:09

this week.

16:12

Pete, welcome to Togo

16:14

Off-Broadway Podcast. First off, how big

16:17

a change for you personally, Pete, is

16:19

going about your work now without Andy Friend

16:21

and talk us through you assembled a

16:23

team of really interesting characters there with John

16:26

Muldoon, Scott Farley, Mark Sexton, those

16:29

guys. It looks like a really kind of intriguing

16:31

blend you've got.

16:32

Yeah, it is. It is a big change.

16:34

It's funny, I had a fair amount of

16:36

input in the rugby that we played, the planning

16:39

of that rugby and I suppose the rollout of

16:41

it to the squad over the last two seasons really,

16:43

but especially last year, the last year under

16:45

Friendy. So I've had

16:47

my hands over the rugby

16:49

aspect but to be in control

16:51

of the whole show and I suppose having that

16:54

influence on what goes on off-field

16:56

in terms of trying to shape that environment and

16:58

I guess the culture that binds everyone together that enables

17:00

you to play that rugby, it's been fascinating for me.

17:02

It's been a great challenge but one I'd be really excited

17:05

about. So yeah, it's a little bit strange

17:07

not having a boss on the corridor to have to

17:09

run things by but that

17:11

sense of freedom and autonomy is pretty exciting.

17:14

So I'm enjoying the role. As

17:16

you said, we've got a pretty fresh coaching group

17:18

here as well. Cully Tucker is our

17:21

Scrum and Breakdown coach. Cully's renewed

17:23

to go round again but then we've got three

17:25

new guys, John Muldoon doesn't

17:27

need much introduction to Connick fans,

17:29

played over 300 games for the club, captain the size

17:31

for number eight. So he's a bit of a legend in these parts

17:34

but Muldoon is here doing line-out

17:36

and more for us. We've got

17:38

Scott Farley who's joined us as defence coach who

17:40

again doesn't need much introduction. He's had

17:43

a tremendous career especially there with the Wallabies and

17:45

the Brumbies and then coming over to Leinster

17:48

so he's well known in these parts too. And

17:50

then Mark Sexton, younger brother Johnny,

17:52

so Mark's here as a skills coach and also assisting

17:54

me with the attack. So we've got a really neat blend,

17:56

very different characters, very different

17:59

rugby backgrounds. but all of bringing their

18:01

take on the game and I'm really enjoying working

18:03

with them so far.

18:04

I wanted to get your insight, Pete.

18:08

You've been into the Island camp reasonably

18:10

recently on the tour

18:12

of New Zealand last July, at the

18:14

start of this 16 win run

18:16

that they're on. First

18:19

of all, can I just ask you about the blend of characters they've got?

18:22

If you think about Andy Farrell and Paul O'Connell,

18:24

they'd be two of the sort of most magnetic, charismatic

18:27

personalities you'd probably find in the sport.

18:29

Could you tell me about a few of your lasting memories

18:32

of

18:33

that time you had with them, maybe what you took

18:35

away and how it influenced you?

18:37

Yeah, I think there certainly

18:39

is a really interesting blend of characters there amongst

18:42

the coaching staff and I think that's something that certainly

18:45

adds to the success there. I think, as

18:47

you said, you've got Andy there and Paul O'Connell,

18:49

both legends of the game in their own

18:51

respects. Simon Easterby is

18:54

there as defence coach, also had a terrific

18:56

career himself and provides

18:59

another angle he took on the team defence once

19:02

Andy moved up to the head coach role.

19:05

So you've got John Fogarty there as scrum

19:07

coach and Mike Capp

19:09

there as skills and backs coach. So it's

19:12

a really interesting blend of guys. They're all hugely

19:14

respected in not just Irish rugby

19:16

circles but beyond that. But

19:18

again, very different personalities and

19:22

certain members of that group are very methodical in

19:24

the way they go about things. Others who are very much about

19:26

the feel and sparking

19:29

the sort of emotional and some of

19:31

the non-tangible aspects of coaching. So

19:33

I think they bounce off each other really well but I think

19:35

importantly they're not afraid to challenge each other and

19:38

all of them are very good at

19:40

parking their ego and looking for the answers

19:43

that give the team the best opportunity and the best

19:45

of rugby development. So I think that was really good

19:47

for me to see of how you blend a coaching group

19:49

and certainly something that we reflected

19:51

on quite heavily when we're looking to put together

19:54

this new coaching group for this new chapter

19:56

here at Connick as well. I think one

19:58

of their great strengths is a great team. group is

20:01

their ability to embrace

20:03

the chaos at times and just

20:06

accept that there are things that are going to be outside

20:08

of your control, whether that's within a game in terms

20:10

of how the opposition goes or the referee

20:12

or the weather or whether it's logistics around

20:15

the game in terms of travel and injuries and preparation.

20:18

I think that New Zealand tour was a really great

20:20

way. Andy talked about it himself at the

20:22

time, but a way of taking people out of their

20:24

comfort zone and having

20:26

some of those unseen obstacles that come your

20:29

way on a tour like that, three test matches against

20:31

the All Blacks and the two midweek games

20:33

against the Maori, how the guys

20:35

approach those challenges, how

20:38

do they accept what they can and can't control

20:40

and see who can actually handle that and who

20:42

can come out of those situations stronger or who

20:45

finds it all a bit too stressful that it inhibits

20:47

their performance. That's not just players, that's

20:49

coaches, it's backroom staff, it's the whole

20:51

family, I suppose. That was really interesting,

20:54

the way they just prepare to embrace those difficult

20:56

situations and as I said, see who

20:59

thrives in that sort of environment because you know when you

21:01

get to any sporting contest, but particularly a World

21:03

Cup, there's going to be a few of those curve balls that come your

21:05

way. So their ability to,

21:08

I suppose, keep an open mindset and a positive

21:10

attitude with that, but take the learnings and the growth

21:12

from it as well. It's pretty powerful and

21:15

that was prominent in that New Zealand trip and I

21:17

think you're seeing it now in the World Cup as well. I was

21:19

going to say, speaking of chaos, facing

21:22

a 7-1 bench or facing the World

21:24

Champions with a 7-1 bench who

21:26

are trying to squeeze you in a way that you've lost games

21:28

previously, I guess, in Ireland's case.

21:32

Could I ask you about your thoughts

21:35

on the weekend watching that and how

21:37

impressive it was that Ireland managed

21:39

to get through?

21:40

Yeah, I think it's really

21:42

interesting and it's a key bit

21:44

of their mindset as a group but also

21:47

directly impact some of their rugby decisions and

21:49

the rugby success on the back of it. As

21:52

you said, there was a fair amount of feedback

21:54

and judgement on Leinster's performances

21:57

against La Rochelle and having come and stuck against them a couple

21:59

of years ago. times and when you're up against real

22:01

physical opposition and would

22:03

Ireland be able to handle that this World Cup

22:06

and I understand why those question marks.

22:09

That said, that game the other night

22:12

it shows that not

22:14

just that they can survive against those physical

22:17

teams but they can find a way to thrive and it might

22:19

not be having a massive amount of ball and play time

22:21

or a massive amount of possession but

22:23

they can still be really effective for what they do get

22:26

and at the same time muscle up and

22:28

stop the power game that comes up. So it's

22:31

only one game and both South Africa and

22:33

Ireland obviously have tremendously challenging

22:36

knockout games when they get to that stage but

22:38

I think it was a really important part and not so

22:40

much proving themselves but probably proving to the outside

22:42

world that they're able

22:44

to handle that physical challenge and still assert

22:46

themselves on our position in a slightly different way.

22:50

You've got four players at the tournament I think I'm

22:52

right in saying. Finley, Mack and Bundy

22:54

with Ireland and Leve for Fita with Tonga.

22:58

Can I ask you about a couple of the guys

23:01

in the Ireland squad back specifically?

23:03

First of all, Matt Canson, he just seems to

23:06

be a

23:07

total breath of fresh air both as far

23:09

as his character and the way he plays

23:12

and he really embodies, we've spoken before

23:14

about the free-spirited sort of way that you

23:17

want or open-minded way sorry that you want

23:19

Connick to play,

23:20

he seems to embody that. Yeah he does

23:22

as you said, Mack's a terrific character and I think

23:25

the more people get to know him and the more air time

23:27

he gets you see just

23:29

what a unique guy he is and I

23:31

think he's really enjoyable

23:33

to work with from a coaching

23:35

perspective partly because he's just a really great human

23:38

being but has that kind of mindset

23:40

that he does embrace

23:42

the challenges and he's not afraid to look for different

23:44

ways to get success on the field.

23:48

He's got a pretty good balance I think of being

23:50

really true to himself, there's no airs

23:52

and graces, he wants to

23:54

let that character shine through which is part of his rugby

23:57

identity as well as him as a person but

23:59

he also understands what the team needs from him. And

24:01

I think that South Africa game was really interesting because it

24:03

was a game where he didn't necessarily

24:06

get a lot of opportunity to carry in a

24:08

lot of open space. But

24:10

he made sure he did what the team required. And

24:12

if he had to catch a high ball and take a big tackle, he did.

24:15

And he had to do his work at the breakdown, he

24:17

did, or carry through some heavy traffic, he did. And

24:19

I think that understanding of the importance of

24:22

not going into your shell of really expressing yourself,

24:24

but at the same time understanding how you fit into

24:26

the team's framework for success. I think,

24:28

you know, Max got a great ability to manage that balance

24:31

and certainly he's done it really well in his

24:33

island career so far. And it's something we're

24:36

trying to really encourage, you know, back here at Conux as

24:38

well.

24:39

Excited to watch. Bundy,

24:41

you arrived at Conux, I think I'm right in

24:43

saying, in 2017, which is the year

24:45

that

24:46

Bundy made his test debut. So having

24:49

been as close to him as you have for I guess

24:51

his entire test career,

24:54

how has he developed in that time as a player? One

24:56

thing that has, I

24:58

get, I must have struck, I hope it

25:00

struck everybody, it certainly struck me watching, is placing

25:03

open field both over the warmups,

25:05

he had that,

25:06

scored that try against England, but then in a few

25:08

games and you think, oh, he's doing that against Romania,

25:10

oh, he's doing that against Thailand, on the night he's done

25:13

it against the Springboks as well. It's

25:16

been so impressive. No, it

25:18

really has, it really has. And I think what he's

25:20

done over, you know, certainly

25:22

these two World Cups now, he's just

25:24

got himself in unbelievable physical condition.

25:27

You know, he's naturally a warrior.

25:30

He will carry through brick walls for you, he won't

25:32

shirk any challenge. And we've

25:34

always known that abrasiveness and

25:36

robustness has been there and I suppose that

25:39

power game. But to get himself in the

25:41

condition where, as you said, he's getting those

25:43

high speed involvements as well and not just one

25:45

offs, but back to back, he's staying in the game after

25:47

that. He's not just having a big sprint or a big

25:49

carry and then drifting off to the end

25:51

of the back line for a rest. He's looking

25:53

to be in the moment, he's looking to

25:56

get those back to back contributions

25:58

to the team. I think that's enormous. He's

26:01

a great character to work with. Another

26:04

one we talk about is free spirit. He's

26:06

got a big personality and his energy

26:09

has such a big impact on the group. Even

26:12

the days where he might not be getting much ball or the

26:14

game might not be going your way, he's a constant

26:17

voice and a constant menace to the

26:19

opposition, whether that's in terms of

26:22

his influence on the game or just

26:24

the energy that he brings to his side. So he

26:26

is great to work with. I think again, he thrives in

26:28

that Irish environment. It keeps him on his toes

26:31

constantly. I just

26:33

think the amount of minutes he's played for them and the impact

26:35

he's obviously had in this World Cup shows how important

26:37

he is to the country. To

26:40

get 50 caps, 50 international caps for anyone,

26:42

but particularly for him with the journeys taken

26:45

to move across the conics and improve himself at

26:47

provincial level, get his opportunity

26:49

with the national team. I've just got so much respect

26:51

for that. So, a long way to continue

26:54

and certainly through this World Cup. Do

26:57

you sense a sense of perseverance

27:00

with him as well? Because I think I'm right in thinking

27:02

around January he was struggling to get in the provincial

27:05

side with you guys and this

27:07

is a serious response to that, I

27:09

guess. Yeah, it

27:11

really is. I think

27:13

he's someone who has enormous personal

27:15

pride in his own performances. Like

27:19

anyone, in terms of those performance levels

27:21

across a career or across a season, it can ebb and

27:23

flow at times. I

27:26

think the thing that's never gone away from Bundy is a

27:29

real passion for the group to succeed and

27:31

to help push the group. Certain

27:35

groups need that at certain times. I

27:37

think he just wants to see the team do well. It

27:40

was a challenging time for him when he wasn't on the field

27:43

very much for Connick, but he worked through that period.

27:45

I think seeing him come

27:47

back into a Connick jersey later last season, and then,

27:50

as we said, the performance is now for Ireland, it

27:53

shows that he is someone that is resilient.

27:55

But also perseveres. I think that's his whole rugby

27:57

journey. I was over at the Reds. when

28:01

he was at the Chiefs and he wasn't a regular

28:03

starting player there at the Chiefs and he came across the

28:05

Conect and probably a bit of an unknown to many people

28:07

and became such a key cog

28:09

in that Conect team that went on to win the Pro 12. The

28:13

legend has grown from there so I think the

28:15

fact he's still training as hard as he is

28:18

and still contributing the way he has, he's

28:21

not the man who's going to give up his opportunities

28:23

in his jersey easily in any team. So I'm

28:25

just excited for him and I'm excited

28:27

the rest of the world are getting to see the best of him as well

28:29

and it's a great reference point for him moving forwards

28:32

because hopefully there's still plenty of rugby

28:34

in him beyond this season and again

28:36

he's laying down a marker of what he can achieve

28:38

and what he can bring to an environment. It's brilliant. Speaking

28:41

of legends growing, Pete, being part

28:44

of Ireland's success

28:47

in the last few years, from

28:50

the vantage point that you've had, is there

28:52

a sense of maybe destiny is a too

28:54

cheesy way of putting it but certainly the

28:57

stars are aligning quite nicely at

28:59

this World Cup and for this group of players

29:01

because it's a special group? Yeah, it's

29:03

an interesting one. I guess my first insight into

29:05

that was that talk to New Zealand

29:07

last summer and it

29:10

struck me that the group was quite prepared.

29:12

I mean players here and management staff quite

29:14

prepared to articulate

29:16

what they wanted to achieve. They talked last

29:19

summer about making a nation proud. They

29:21

talked about wanting to be the number one team in

29:23

the world. They didn't hide from that. At

29:27

the same time they had that balance

29:29

with understanding it wasn't going to be a smooth journey to get

29:31

there. I just think there's a neat balance in

29:33

terms of that ambition and not being afraid to

29:36

walk towards that. At the same

29:38

time accepting you're not going to have everything your own

29:40

way and sometimes you've got to

29:42

find your way out of difficult situations. I

29:45

think that's their strength if anything. I don't know if

29:47

it's a feeling of destiny but I do think it's a feeling

29:49

of absolute determination

29:52

but also the adaptability that's required if you're

29:54

going to get there. It's going to be

29:56

fascinating to see how the next few weeks play out

29:58

for them and obviously the teams as well. Pete,

30:01

thank you so much for your time and I hope you're super busy

30:04

and good luck for the rest of the season. I appreciate it

30:06

Charlie, thanks for having me on and all the best. Charlie,

30:09

can I just ask you a bit about Matt Canson actually and

30:11

how he's kind of developed

30:13

into this excellent player who the Wallerbeez are just watching

30:15

each week and tearing the air out of it, he

30:17

somehow slipped through the net. Such a, so suited

30:20

to how Ireland play, we spoke last week about Andy

30:22

Farrell wanting his attack to be messy

30:25

and his wingers to be a big part of that as far as how they

30:27

roam around the field, pick up touches and I believe

30:29

Matt Canson back in Australia was sort of a

30:32

could play ten, you can really see that, you

30:34

know he's a lovely distributor,

30:37

he's quick, he's deceptively

30:40

wiry and pretty strong, certainly in the Tonga

30:42

game, he was just so,

30:44

there was so much conviction about his carrying despite

30:47

all that heavy traffic and the same was true I thought

30:51

in the South Africa game. I'd sort of

30:53

suggested before South Africa game that

30:55

those wings would be really important to

30:57

South Africa and how they outflanked the blitz.

31:00

I think they were for that one

31:02

big Hugo Keenan break in the first half but

31:04

Matt Canson didn't actually get the ball, he came off his

31:07

wing when Ringrose had it, got absolutely smoked

31:09

without the ball but then the ball, then that gave...

31:11

Was that, was that the triple ball that we got in

31:13

the ball? Yeah, that gave the space, that presented the

31:15

space over the top and you know

31:18

that's another thing we're not talking about really,

31:20

that's a big chance for Ireland to score

31:22

and change the complexion of the game

31:24

and to have South Africa chasing it but

31:27

yeah, Matt Canson's a fantastic player with

31:30

guys like Dan Sheer and Jamison

31:32

Gibson-Park, James

31:35

Lowe, they've really kind of come in this World Cup

31:37

cycle and enhanced Ireland

31:40

and those guys, the impact of those guys

31:42

is the reason for what you see now.

31:45

I say naturally skillful as well and so he's

31:48

aerially so good, he does all those sort of silky

31:50

bits that you look, the sort of cherry on the

31:53

cake as it were for an international winger

31:55

like, so naturally skillful as you said, he's

31:57

deceptively stringed, deceptively fester the ball

31:59

in his hand. and has a really good feel for the game, but

32:01

he also does the nuts and bolts really well, the kick

32:03

chase, the

32:06

jumping and aerial dynamics

32:09

are just brilliant. You

32:11

don't see him drooping too many high balls and I

32:13

think that's become a massively important

32:16

component of modern wing play and

32:19

he does that very well. He's sort of Anthony Watson-esque,

32:21

Anthony's probably a little bit quicker

32:25

than Hanson, but Hanson's probably got a slightly

32:27

better feel for the game, as you said, I don't think

32:30

Anthony Watson's ever played ten, apologies Anthony

32:32

if you have. You're

32:35

right, you could envisage him playing fly half, maybe

32:37

not for Ireland, but maybe at a

32:39

slightly lower level. Sometimes it's

32:41

useful to see the numbers just to back up if you feel a player

32:44

is playing quite well. For Bundyacke,

32:46

he's second for clean breaks in the tournament on

32:48

eight. He's tied second for tries,

32:50

obviously on four, because Henry Arendelle's just had a

32:53

blind difference and it's called five in one game.

32:55

The one that is blowing my mind slightly is that he's

32:58

first for runs or carries on 53 and

33:01

the next best is David Ninias, on 33. He's

33:04

made 20 more runs than any other player in

33:06

the tournament, that is bamboozling.

33:08

I think that also shows how

33:10

much Ireland, when things are

33:13

to create that width that we saw when they did make this

33:15

break, they do just need someone to truck

33:17

up in the middle and particularly against Tonga, for

33:20

a lot of the game he was just doing that, just bashing into

33:22

carries, bashing into contact, tiring out defenders

33:24

to create space. There's

33:26

almost two ways that they've used him. They've used him

33:28

as someone who's breaking the game line and showing sneaky

33:31

speed to get round defenders for tries, but

33:33

also just the work rate he gets through, his sensation

33:35

isn't it? He'd be among Ireland's most valuable

33:37

players and if he said that in January when he

33:39

was struggling to get into the

33:42

conic side, which is what I spoke to Pete

33:44

Wilkins about, that

33:46

would have sounded ridiculous. It shares your work quite

33:48

now for Ireland because they have that gap before the game

33:50

against Scotland at the end and

33:53

also good for the players and

33:55

getting some time in the family. It's good for our comrades and the Irish

33:58

press back as well, you'll get a few days off as well. well

34:00

for your days break. How useful

34:02

is that going to be, do you think

34:04

for them, well it's tricky isn't

34:06

it, would you rather have the momentum coming out of Saturday

34:09

and just get Scotland done? Or

34:11

actually is it quite a nice time after such a physical game

34:13

to just recuperate and then go into the

34:15

game? I was going to say they'd be pretty sore wouldn't

34:18

they? That's quite a nice week off to have.

34:20

Maybe refocuses them as well for Scotland because

34:23

they lose that by more than eight points they're out, which

34:25

is unthinkable because they've won 12 of the

34:27

last 13 against Scotland and they beat the

34:29

McMurray Field by 15 points. Just repeat that

34:32

for the fans at home. Well

34:34

I hope I'm right but I'm pretty sure they've won,

34:36

it's won in the last 13. No no

34:38

before that about if they lose by what? More

34:41

than if they lose by eight points or more. So

34:44

if Ireland don't get any sort of bonus against Scotland

34:46

and they lose then I'm fairly sure they're

34:48

out on the head to head. So

34:51

nothing changes for Scotland despite they've

34:53

just got to keep winning. I think in ordinary circumstances

34:56

Ireland probably would want to play Scotland this Saturday.

34:58

I think ordinarily to keep that momentum

35:01

to not risk sort of slipping into a lull

35:03

but I think you're right with how physical and

35:05

how intense that game was on Saturday night against the Spring

35:08

Rocks I think they might on this occasion treat

35:10

it as a unique fortnight

35:12

and a unique Saturday whereby actually recuperation

35:15

and recovery of those bodies ahead of, as

35:18

you say, it's not a foregone conclusion

35:20

that game at the front. Ireland obviously will go in

35:22

as large favourites but

35:25

with a lot of pressure on them potentially to

35:28

not lose by eight points, if Finn Russell turns up

35:30

and starts pulling strings you know stranger things have

35:32

happened. We've seen much far stranger things happen in the

35:34

world. I almost want it now. We

35:36

haven't really had our upset

35:39

yet. Fiji Australia was a sort

35:41

of semi upset I think. Georgia

35:45

drawing with Portugal is a semi upset

35:48

maybe. I don't think you can really cast that as a full upset because they

35:50

didn't win. So we haven't had our upset

35:52

yet. I think maybe Scotland beating Ireland

35:54

by over eight points. I don't

35:57

know, I'm being disrespectful to Scotland by

35:59

suggesting.

35:59

I'd

36:01

say we've had surprise results without having shock

36:03

results. So Wales blowing out winning

36:06

by that much against Australia is a

36:08

big surprise but yeah as far as a kind

36:10

of big turning over of a big

36:13

favourite I don't think we've probably had that yet. No I mean obviously

36:16

similarly but even more scarily if

36:19

Italy beat France, Le

36:21

Bleu, pack your bags, you are

36:23

very nervous about that. The Charlie

36:25

Morgan millions from the first episode. That's

36:28

what it's it? What was it Italy to get

36:30

through? No France cannot get

36:32

through. It was 33's. I didn't pay any money

36:34

and obviously because I'm not an idiot but well done

36:36

if you did and it happens but you won't.

36:40

You never know the very final

36:42

thing about the Arn Saffirica game. We

36:44

mentioned Ben and Keith earlier but no cards

36:47

and no sort of sightings

36:49

and I want to say no TMO referrals

36:52

for foul play. Like for another podcast

36:54

here I listened to the 42 and Dan Levy was

36:56

on there and he went on a really really interesting

36:58

sort of monologue about cards

37:01

and how bigger games

37:04

potentially like that really focus players

37:06

just into going low because you know how

37:09

much trouble you're putting the

37:11

rest of your team in if you do if you do concede

37:13

it well even a penalty but a card

37:15

sort of on top of that and he actually was saying

37:18

I just can't understand how pros

37:20

are being as lazy to stay up right now

37:22

and some of the cards we've seen in the

37:25

warm-ups maybe a little bit in the well maybe sort

37:27

of the Ethan DeGroote one in against Namibia

37:30

that players can be precisely

37:32

players can be more diligent than that and

37:35

I think I think the game the magnitude

37:37

of the game the Arn Saffirica game just

37:40

must have focused those players so much. It's

37:42

a real complement to their skill and ability

37:44

to perform under pressure I thought that we

37:46

got that they managed to get through that without any cards so

37:49

full credit to both of them. On

37:52

to next a bit more of a lopsided

37:54

scoreline Leon on Sunday night where

37:57

oh Australia what are you doing?

38:01

Ok

38:05

Wales 40, Australia 6, record

38:07

breaking scenes in Leon.

38:10

One of his biggest World Cup defeat, Wales

38:12

biggest winner of Australia, most points

38:14

Wales have ever scored against Australia. That

38:17

last bit is quite funny though because the record that they broke

38:19

was won from last November in Cardiff for

38:21

the most points, so it's not stood for very

38:23

long. But hey, a record is a record.

38:26

Had

38:28

the honour of being there, sat up at the

38:30

very, very, very top of the stadium. Cool

38:33

stadium? Yeah, it is. Do you want

38:35

all the roof for you? It is. Not

38:37

far off. If I'd touched an armour, I'd probably could have grabbed

38:39

onto a rafter and gone swinging. Yeah, it was

38:42

pretty high. Yeah, very

38:44

cool stadium, particularly from

38:47

pitch level if you're doing captain's runs or whatever and getting

38:49

a look around. Yeah, very, very good.

38:52

And you said

38:54

earlier Charlie, I think it was you, maybe it was you Charlie,

38:56

said that it was just quite sad, sad

38:58

watching it. And that was honestly how it felt with 20 minutes to

39:00

go because the contest was done. Wales

39:03

are knocking over a drop goal when they were

39:05

up 32-6 just to keep

39:08

the margin. Just in case of a comeback,

39:10

it was pretty desperate. It was kind

39:13

of the old school way to beat Australia

39:15

is if you can soak up their phase play to

39:18

the point where they don't have many ideas left.

39:21

You can squeeze them in malls, squeeze them

39:23

at the scrum. And Wales just did that. And

39:25

as well as Wales played, they

39:29

played so well because they didn't have to do loads.

39:31

There was just this confidence there that if they could, as

39:33

I say, just if they could absorb pressure

39:35

for a bit. And Australia had a couple

39:38

of chances in the first quarter, didn't they? Donaldson's breakaway,

39:40

he goes left instead of right where he's got a couple

39:42

of runners. That changes the game,

39:45

then it didn't happen. Bella got close

39:47

to me, Bella got close within five metres. And

39:50

then we're back for penalty. And then

39:52

obviously when they get another penalty and

39:54

go for touch, kick it backwards for a

39:56

start and then just run

39:58

the worst line out. Let's just do

40:00

a couple minutes on Ben Donaldson specifically because

40:03

there was a lot of talking to build up about Carter

40:05

Gordon going out, Donaldson coming in. Donaldson

40:08

has this just wild first

40:10

half an hour where, yeah, like you say, makes that break,

40:13

goes to a completely wrong option, chances gone. Before

40:17

that produced a brilliant sort of tactical hit

40:19

to touch which put Australia, pinned Wells back

40:21

in the corner and he thought, okay. But he also

40:23

at one point kicked a restart out on the full. He

40:27

made a sloppy error under the high ball against,

40:29

I want to say Josh Adams, but I can't

40:31

remember who, oh no, no, take me down and pass the

40:33

ball back for him to just do a really basic kick out of

40:35

his 22 with no one around him and just dropped

40:38

it, which was unforgivable. Potentially at fault for

40:40

switching off a little bit for Wells first try inside

40:42

ball as well. Yeah, that was it as well. He was chasing Jack

40:44

Morgan, wasn't he? But that's because he's not played there.

40:47

Right, this is the whole frustration, the whole, the

40:50

reason that Eddie Jones' sort of decisions has

40:52

set up the players to fail because Ben Donaldson

40:54

had a pretty iffy super rugby

40:56

season. He's come as a 10-15. I think

40:59

he's even categorised in the utility category

41:01

of Australia's squad. You've

41:06

purposefully left out tens like

41:08

Quaid Cooper and Bernard Foley who can,

41:11

even if they're back up, they can be a calming

41:13

influence. It's just throwing

41:15

sort of things and hoping they stick and

41:18

when they don't stick, you can't really be

41:20

surprised, you know. Especially if that

41:23

first quarter, if that first quarter everything goes well

41:25

for Ben Donaldson and he gets a pass away for

41:27

the try, you know, he doesn't make a

41:29

couple of those more elementary errors

41:32

and Australia are up, then it can

41:34

be a virtuous circle and he can go

41:36

on to have a really good tournament and steer Australia

41:39

deeper into it. But

41:42

no, because the errors compound themselves

41:44

and there's just less, there's

41:47

just less to go on for a coach, isn't there,

41:49

when you're sort of taking chances like

41:51

that and that's more

41:53

for me why I feel for the players in those situations.

42:00

Gordon got 50 against Fiji last week, so he

42:02

lasted ever

42:04

so slightly longer. Charles, the thing where it all

42:06

seemed to turn watching where I was

42:09

was in the scrum because the first couple of penalties

42:11

against Wales were kind of technical

42:13

offences where Gareth Thomas was getting pinged

42:15

for scrumming outside the tight head and Gareth Thomas

42:17

was sort of looking at him, Wayne Barnes was like,

42:20

sure.

42:21

And then it happened twice, but then as soon as that tweak

42:23

got corrected, Wales

42:25

scrum was just utterly rampant. Like,

42:28

the Wallabies took off James Slipper at half time to try and

42:30

bring on the replacement tight head to steady

42:32

it, and it had no effect, did it? A

42:34

really dominant scrumming performance. No,

42:36

no, no, in fact, if anything, it actually got

42:38

worse in the second half. It was more

42:40

emphatic. I mean, well, this has sort

42:42

of come, as we've already touched on

42:45

from Taniel Odupo not being fit and

42:47

James Slipper, who is nominally a loose head,

42:50

switching over to tight, he can do

42:52

that. Do you really want

42:55

given that the the two positions

42:58

are distinct, do you really want

43:00

in a do or die World Cup knockout,

43:03

basically a knockout match to

43:05

be playing a loose head at tight? No,

43:08

you don't. And it killed them. It really

43:10

did. It really, you know, they couldn't get a foothold

43:12

in the game anywhere at no point. You

43:16

know, when Australia was still in

43:18

the game on the scoreboard in that first half an hour,

43:20

at least they could rely on their scrum

43:22

a bit. Admittedly, they were for technical offences

43:24

that Wales were committing at scrum

43:26

time. But you did think, oh, OK, well, if this if

43:28

they carry on like this at the scrum, the Wallabies,

43:31

they might have a chance. They might have a chance. But

43:35

it did not carry on like that. And they got

43:37

obliterated. We've now had stay in the scrum

43:39

from Wayne Barnes a couple of weeks after Cardickson

43:42

told, I think one of the Wales, too

43:44

much scrummaging and they gave a cheek. Yeah,

43:47

it'd be a prop. I mean, the final penalty camp was nine

43:49

for Wales, 12 for Australia, but it felt more like 20

43:51

for Australia with the way the last quarter played

43:54

out and how they were just getting pained for everything at the scrum

43:57

and everything else where I sort of want to just get

43:59

all the Aussie. misery out of the way and then we

44:01

can throw some deserved flowers away.

44:05

With what happened in the post-match

44:07

press conference, this

44:10

might just be me sort of speculating, but

44:12

I was about three rows away from Eddie James.

44:14

He looked a bit watery-eyed as if the momentum

44:17

of what had just happened was hitting him as

44:20

he was going through it. He

44:23

was typically defiant when asked

44:25

about a pretty sensational story and

44:27

huge congratulations to Tom Deason from the Sydney

44:29

Morning Hill for getting that out on

44:32

Sunday morning, reporting that Eddie

44:34

Jones had allegedly had an

44:36

interview to become Japan's next head coach

44:39

because that process is currently underway

44:41

by the Japanese Rugby Football Union to find

44:44

a successor for Jamie Joseph. Now

44:46

Jones fiercely denied this in the press conference

44:48

and naturally was asked about whether

44:51

the story was true, but also

44:53

the ramifications of what it had meant

44:56

for his players' mentality going into the game.

44:59

There was a question to do for Parecki,

45:01

the Wallabies captain, about how

45:03

much it had affected the players. Then Jones

45:05

responded in typical defiant fashion

45:07

with this after that Parecki question.

45:10

Sorry Eddie, just to go through it and then move

45:12

on from it, did you do a

45:14

job interview with Japanese Rugby

45:16

a couple of weeks before the World Cup?

45:19

If so, what was the thinking? I

45:21

don't know what you're talking about mate. Eddie,

45:24

do you have a second interview lined up with the JRF

45:26

year? I said I don't know what you're talking about mate.

45:29

Can you give all of his fans your absolute 100% commitment

45:32

that you will not be coach

45:33

of Japan next year? I'm

45:35

committed to coach Australia. Next

45:38

year? I'm committed to coach Australia. That's

45:40

why I'm very defended Eddie. Thank you, next question please.

45:42

Dave, this morning a story

45:45

was printed that was

45:47

very well sourced about, as you've been hearing

45:49

about maybe Eddie joining Japan

45:51

next season, next year. He's already

45:53

said it's not going to happen but I just wonder from the point of view

45:55

of your team, what

45:58

kind of psychological impact did that have on you? on you today.

46:00

We didn't turn up tonight so it's got nothing

46:02

to do with the outside noise. It's just got through with our performance.

46:05

We weren't good enough. I

46:07

really take umbrage at the questioning that

46:09

people are questioning my commitment

46:12

to coaching Australia. I really take

46:14

umbrage at it. Yeah, I've

46:17

been working non-stop since I've come

46:19

here and I apologise for the results.

46:22

I keep saying that. But to doubt my commitment

46:24

to the job I think is a bit red hot. So

46:27

we're not going to deal with any of those questions any further.

46:30

So I'm happy to talk about Wales. I'm happy to talk

46:32

about Portugal. If you want to keep going down that

46:35

line I'll excuse myself. So

46:37

do you want to decide what you want to do? I

46:39

mean you'd kind of expect him

46:41

to say something along those

46:43

lines. I just couldn't

46:46

get my head around. It turned the

46:48

whole of Sunday into a circus and almost made the

46:50

game an afterthought because all of a sudden the

46:52

focus wasn't on whether Australia could beat Wales.

46:55

It was on this Eddie story. Myself

46:57

and Elgin Orland from the Times rushed

46:59

to this fan event at

47:02

a place called Wallaby House in Leon which was meant

47:05

to be like a nice fan park where fans

47:07

could hear from Chief

47:10

Executive for War and other dignitaries

47:13

from Rugby Australia spotted Bill

47:15

Pulver there, the old chairman as

47:17

well. The whole idea was it was meant

47:19

to be like a pet rally essentially

47:22

and it turned into this 20 journalists

47:25

turning up with phones, quizzing for war,

47:27

like the sports minister spoke first. I'm not sure.

47:29

Anyone was quite

47:31

listening to what she'd say even though it was all very pertinent because

47:34

everyone just couldn't wait to ask for war about

47:36

the situation. Basically the

47:38

day turned into a bit of circus and

47:40

it's no wonder that Australia's heads went because

47:43

I think the heads of everyone else had gone by the time we got

47:45

to kick off unless you were back in Wales.

47:47

Have you ever seen body language like that from a

47:49

group of coaches during a game? Hands

47:52

over faces. You've seen anger

47:54

and obviously we've seen anger from Jones before in both

47:57

his even in charge

47:59

of England and in charge Famous

48:01

gifts, but to have that prolonged

48:04

hands-over-mouth by multiple

48:06

coaches, what do you look at? If you see that on the

48:08

big screen as a player, what are you thinking? Thinking,

48:11

jeez, yeah, we're really messing up here. These

48:14

guys think they can't help us. It

48:17

must just be totally demoralizing. It

48:20

means nothing now, but the mood that the captains

48:22

run the day before was very different and

48:24

very kind of defiant, not necessarily in the press comments,

48:26

but when the Wallabies sort of came out, they had Boombox,

48:29

playing two-pack really loud, two-pack tall eyes on me,

48:31

they could tell that the pressure was on them, they were relaxed,

48:33

they were chilled out, not in a casual

48:36

way that suggested they would lose, they just looked in

48:38

quite a good place. And then boom, that

48:40

story comes out, heads

48:43

obviously rattled as soon as they lost

48:45

the foothold in the game against Wales. It wasn't like

48:47

there was anybody on there, because we talked about the lack

48:49

of experience so much now, wasn't like there was an

48:51

on-field general who could rally them. I

48:55

think it's maybe been a little bit more defiant

48:57

since saying that story didn't affect

48:59

us, because they're not technically out yet. Fiji

49:03

could lose both of their next two games and then Australia

49:05

somehow scraped through into

49:07

a potential quarterfinal against England. I think pigs

49:09

can fly as well. I mean, telling

49:12

Lee, no denial,

49:14

no denial from Eddie, he wouldn't address

49:18

the story and sort of play dumb

49:20

almost with it, but no denial.

49:23

He did not say, no, that didn't happen,

49:25

and I will be the Wallabies coach next year, in terms

49:28

of maybe he's trying to

49:30

get ahead of the game because he thinks he might be sacked, because

49:32

as we've mentioned, this is the first time, this

49:35

is going to be the first time that Australia have failed

49:37

to progress from the pool stages at the World Cup. Also,

49:39

no denial from the Japanese Reunion who were approached yesterday,

49:43

they just refused to comment. Now, if you

49:46

were them and it absolutely didn't happen, then you

49:48

would say, wouldn't you? I don't know, am I being naive?

49:50

No, no, I think that's a fair point. To

49:53

pull back the curtain a little bit, both Charlie and

49:55

Charles texted me and said, please send us

49:57

the audio from the press conference as I was sitting

49:59

down into it. because we knew it would

50:02

be a good one. The reaction in

50:04

Australia has been as fierce

50:06

and despondent and miserable

50:09

as you might expect. Bernard Faley

50:11

was one of the people who was in

50:13

Nice I think last week was he?

50:15

So he's been in the country probably with a pair of boots

50:18

back just in case. He

50:20

tweeted for the first time in ages it didn't

50:22

have to be like this. You've had calls

50:24

for Jones to go, you've had former players

50:27

just decrying the lack of

50:29

experienced players in the squad and how unfair

50:32

it is and all these guys who were like in their mid-20s,

50:34

like one of these players who are going to be tarnished by this forever.

50:38

It's just all a bit desperate and Dan

50:40

Schofield has written a column on the

50:42

Telegraph sort of talking about

50:44

yes, like Eddie's

50:47

at fault here but there's such wide structural

50:49

issues in Australian rugby. There's

50:51

a line still going there in less than two

50:53

years. I mean I don't think

50:55

I've ever felt more sure about a 3-0 series

50:58

line to win in my entire life. I mean 3-0 and

51:00

the rest, I mean it's going

51:02

to be absolutely colossal and it does make you

51:07

wonder, I was talking with somebody about this over

51:09

the weekend, wouldn't it be beneficial?

51:13

It would never work from a commercial standpoint.

51:15

I'd rather watch three games between the lines and

51:17

Fiji in Suva or sort of

51:19

around Fiji than what is just going to

51:21

be a total drubbing in Australia.

51:24

Yeah, no I'm completely with you. Yeah,

51:27

just very, it's just an upsetting night, as

51:29

we've already touched on, a very upsetting night and

51:33

yeah, well it remains to be said, the landscape

51:37

of the sport in the country has sort

51:40

of been in recession for a number

51:42

of years anyway and this is not going to help. You

51:44

spoke to anyone who knew Australian

51:48

rugby last week, they said that that game against Wales

51:50

was absolutely massive, such

51:52

a big game, such a sort of titanic day

51:54

for the sport. in

52:00

the country and how important it is and how so momentous

52:02

for the sport to recover

52:05

and then for them to crumble like that is

52:08

just very sad. You see jibes

52:11

on social media which I know should always be taken with a pinch

52:13

of salt but also there's no smoke without

52:15

fire of how it's the fourth code

52:17

of a ball sport, of footy

52:20

in Australia. You've

52:22

got declining participation

52:25

numbers at grassroots level, you've got declining attendance

52:27

at Super Rugby. People don't really care

52:29

about Super Rugby. Yes the Wallabies' attendances

52:32

are still healthy

52:34

and seemingly the population still

52:36

get behind the Wallabies but you do fear that now

52:39

after this will the loyalty

52:41

and will the passion be

52:43

as fierce? Maybe

52:46

not. Obviously we're a long way away and

52:50

we're trying to predict the future so we have no idea but you

52:52

do fear for them a little bit don't you? We

52:54

do. You know it's bad when we all feel this bad for Australia

52:57

because they might

52:59

not necessarily feel the same way about England if

53:01

the tables were dead.

53:04

And also just as an aside I've

53:06

been the bigger man here, I've risen above the Eddie

53:10

Jones jibes. I've rarely addressed them

53:12

but I'm going to have to on this occasion just go where

53:15

are you Eddie? Whoa hey hey

53:17

hey oh my goodness

53:19

me. That's my moment in the sun. The

53:22

podcast studio is just shaking. If the mic

53:24

wasn't sort of fixed to the table I'd

53:26

drop it. You should have ripped it off and said that.

53:29

What do the Dan Cold Stone cold? Yes yes

53:32

that's something nice we'll have to talk about that.

53:35

Let's say nice things about Wales because we absolutely should

53:37

do. Charlie can I just ask you about how

53:40

impressed you were by Gareth Antsken when

53:42

he came on 12 minutes in. I mean Dan

53:44

Bigger goes down some of us wrote

53:46

really nice features about Dan Bigger in the build up

53:48

to the game so that was good

53:51

to see him go off really early with an injury.

53:54

But Gareth Antsken came in and

53:56

showed excellent control, admittedly

53:59

behind a steamroller. of a pack but he impressed.

54:02

Yeah he did, he got absolutely smoked in the air. From

54:04

that Donaldson break we were talking about, he got that interception

54:06

when Donaldson can link up with that inside support

54:08

and I think it was Cora Bette, absolutely

54:11

whack. It was one of

54:14

those really, again, like a

54:16

really demoralising moment for a player because

54:19

the ref came over and you could hear him talking,

54:21

I think it was talking with Tom Foley, the TMO,

54:23

and they were saying, is he alright? And he was like, yeah, he's just winded,

54:25

just a big hit. And it's Antcom

54:27

within a lot of bother and you

54:29

could see, I think players when they're, you could

54:32

see with the outburst of

54:34

emotion like there was for his

54:36

chip for Tompkins, Dry Tompkins, who was fantastic as

54:38

well by the way. Antcom just,

54:41

big celebration, he'd love to see that because

54:43

that's a player who's just so

54:45

much has built up to this point for him and

54:48

it must just be, feel fantastic. It did just

54:50

on that, he spoke about it in the mix and afterwards and how

54:52

he had that horrendous time out with his

54:54

knee injury, the amount of surgeries he'd

54:56

gone through and how that whole kind

54:58

of spell had just made

55:00

him have a better perspective to appreciate

55:03

the bigger moments in the game since he actually kind

55:05

of enjoyed them and he's getting taxed from home back

55:07

in New Zealand and Wales laughing at how

55:09

much he'd gone for it but he was actually like, you've just got

55:11

to appreciate it. Nice little

55:13

drop goal as well. I'm really intrigued by Wales'

55:15

attack and I wrote a piece a couple of weeks

55:17

ago that wasn't meant to be derogatory at all about

55:20

Wales' attack but linked to England's

55:22

attack which is if you can't be an Ireland and if you can't

55:24

have that intricate phase

55:26

pressure and loads of different runners and you'd be a

55:28

Wales because Wales are just very good at

55:30

getting the ball into the hands of their dangerous runners just

55:33

in quite a simple, straightforward way

55:35

which is just as incisive and they'll have

55:37

a couple of clever strikes like they did

55:40

for Gareth Davis try. Gareth Davis

55:42

is just an unbelievable support runner.

55:44

They've got a lot of good athletes, they've got

55:46

a lot of powerful players and

55:49

when they lose momentum they're not

55:51

afraid to go to the boot because they've got a good kicking game as well.

55:59

I was just wondering if that's a typical injured, who would

56:02

put it then? I was like, it could be Thomas Williams. Or

56:04

it could be Jack Morgan, because he's now,

56:06

for a flanker, come up with a lovely crossfield

56:08

assist for Reece Lamont against Fiji.

56:12

And then he's banged a, let's call it a 22-22, not

56:14

a 50-22 against Australia. Charles,

56:17

he's been, no, I wouldn't say a revelation

56:20

of the tournament, because I think people were appreciating

56:23

how good he was. But given where he sort

56:25

of, I mean, Warren Gatlin admitted afterwards, I

56:28

kind of threw him in the deep end a little

56:30

bit, Jack Morgan. But actually, he's thriving

56:32

in on, I thought, on Sunday night

56:35

when he was sort of, you know, bloodied nose, tackling

56:38

everything, scoring chives, he looked

56:40

great, didn't he, Charles? Absolutely, total warrior,

56:42

the beating heart of that Welsh team, has

56:45

really stepped up as captain. You know, all

56:48

the cliches about leading from the front are all,

56:50

you know, completely justified for him. But it's

56:52

not just the leadership, it's the fact that he's an

56:54

outstanding player as well. Virtually

56:56

the first player on the team sheet, and, yeah,

56:59

caused Australia. And

57:01

Fiji, he was amazing against Fiji as well,

57:03

and he was brilliant in the warm-ups. Yeah,

57:06

I mean, he looks, not,

57:08

few had high hopes for Wales in this tournament, but

57:10

I think through sort of sheer

57:13

grit and determination, embodied

57:15

by skipper Morgan, captain Jack, you

57:18

know, they really could be looking at a semi-final.

57:21

That siege mentality that Warren Gatlin,

57:24

I know, loves, seems to be, seems to

57:26

be installed there, they're looking very promising. Right, we're going to

57:28

get into the rest of the weekend's action now, including

57:31

how England get on against Chile up

57:33

in Lille.

57:37

Right, Charlie, how many tries for Henry Arendelle in Lille? Five. To

57:41

put in top of the triscoring

57:43

list of the whole tournament. Outrageous. Outrageous.

57:46

You were there, as we know from your taxi

57:48

adventures, can you give us an idea of, first

57:51

of all, what the atmosphere was like, because I think

57:53

we've seen quite a few Chile fans have travelled over. How

57:55

was that? Yeah, before the game, really cool to see

57:57

loads of Condoros fans. their

58:00

team rewarded them in the first 20 minutes, didn't

58:02

they? England blew a

58:04

few chances as it's kind of become a trend

58:07

and invited pressure

58:09

upon themselves. But as Steve

58:12

Boffert mentioned afterwards, they were resilient in defence and

58:14

they were pretty quick with

58:16

the ball, quick to move the ball and tap for that first 20 minutes.

58:18

It actually, I'm freeing them to score 71

58:21

points in effectively an hour, is

58:23

actually pretty impressive to be fair. No,

58:27

it was quite a nice atmosphere, a few more

58:29

empty seats around the middle sort

58:31

of tier

58:33

which was quite odd, but generally

58:35

quite a nice atmosphere and

58:38

then when those sort of jitters

58:40

of the first 20 minutes had gone, England

58:43

settled in quite nicely. We've

58:46

had glimpses of Marcus

58:48

Smith at full back

58:49

during the warm-ups and

58:51

briefly in the World Cup so far when this was his first

58:54

start there. I appreciate

58:56

that maybe the quality of the opposition might

58:59

factor into your thinking about it and whether it's

59:01

a long-term ploy, but can you

59:03

see England

59:05

using that in the knockout stages and is that

59:07

actually quite a valuable weapon for them to have? I can,

59:09

I really like it. I think he's more,

59:12

certainly more likely to play at full

59:14

back than Henry Arendelle is on the wing.

59:16

To be clear, Henry Arendelle's fourth try was a

59:18

really nice finish. I think

59:20

that the chip and chase, that was, I think Dan

59:23

Cole's scoring the other four, to be honest. Maybe

59:25

not the fifth, but certainly a few of the others. The

59:29

third he ran on to a grubber as well, which

59:32

I don't think Dan Cole's outpacing anybody either,

59:37

but no, you know what I mean. I

59:39

think Smith is more likely to play at full back than Henry

59:42

Arendelle is playing on the wing in a big game

59:45

and I like it. It's not just I know

59:47

there are just caveats rounding the line. It's just

59:50

really boring to keep saying yeah, but the

59:52

plan against this team. But Smith has now gone well

59:55

against Ireland, against Fiji, against Japan

59:57

and now against Chile. And it's not necessarily

59:59

that he's going to He is beating players and

1:00:01

he is picking off kind of tired

1:00:03

defences against the worst team. But

1:00:06

it's as much of a mindset as anything. It's this urgency

1:00:08

and this awareness to play for space and help

1:00:10

there. He was saying he's

1:00:12

classically sort of

1:00:16

self-deprecating afterwards, but he said, look,

1:00:18

I've just got to tell those guys inside me that I want the

1:00:20

ball. Him having that urgency

1:00:23

can transform, that sort of urgency can transform

1:00:25

an attack and I think he's doing a good job

1:00:27

of that. And if it is only an option

1:00:30

off the bench, whether England go 6-2 or 5-3, I think it can

1:00:34

be really valuable. Who were, sorry,

1:00:36

I was just going to say Charles, who else kind of stood out

1:00:38

in that game that would maybe,

1:00:40

who wasn't in the team that played, I wasn't

1:00:43

teaming in Japan, who might have done enough

1:00:45

for the force of re-thing? Well I think that

1:00:47

the big sort of positives were, I was

1:00:49

on player ratings and I gave Arendelle Smith,

1:00:51

Theo Dan, Jack Willis and Owen Farrell

1:00:53

eight. I think

1:00:54

Farrell's return was a positive. I

1:00:56

think Willis has slid

1:00:59

down the pecking order so it's a real positive

1:01:01

that he's gone well. Like to see him on the bench,

1:01:03

I think. Yeah, well they're the big games. Well

1:01:06

for Smith, if Smith

1:01:08

is a live option, which we believe he is for bigger

1:01:11

games, and is a really,

1:01:13

that's a tactic that lends

1:01:15

itself to a 6-2 and if you're loading Willis

1:01:18

as well as another back rower, it's just a way

1:01:20

that England get the best out of the squad they've got

1:01:23

and the squad they've got is characterised by

1:01:25

positional flexibility, so that lends itself

1:01:28

to 6-2 and a lot of good back

1:01:30

five forwards. I'm going to slightly put

1:01:32

a dampener and I don't mean to be contrary

1:01:35

for the sake of it and grumpy and cynical, but

1:01:38

just in the opening 20 I think that,

1:01:41

I think Smith did butcher a couple of overlaps, he'll

1:01:43

be very disappointed with and I think that it's

1:01:45

easy to get lost in the hype

1:01:47

and lost in all the good stuff that he did,

1:01:50

but I think those two, if you're

1:01:52

butchering opportunities like that in a quarter-final or a

1:01:54

semi-final, that's verging on unforgivable and

1:01:56

I think that that will count against him maybe. Well you're only

1:01:58

getting one or two of those. in the quarter-final, aren't

1:02:00

you? So yeah, you need to take them. Right.

1:02:04

But if we are sort of doing the backline

1:02:06

thing, I mean, I would keep Stuart, I think, and

1:02:09

I would have Smith on the bench, and I would keep

1:02:11

Stuart. And I personally would have Arendelle. I

1:02:14

know we think it's unlikely, given

1:02:18

how well May's gone and sort

1:02:20

of how well he suits the

1:02:22

way that England want to play, but I think I would have

1:02:24

Arendelle. I think I'd start Stuart at 15,

1:02:26

just because I think that solidity at the back in

1:02:29

the bigger matches is very valuable.

1:02:31

And again, especially

1:02:33

with how England want to play, which is very kick-heavy,

1:02:36

having him there is

1:02:38

very handy. And I think

1:02:40

that if you went Ford Farrell, which I would go Ford

1:02:42

Farrell, and I think they're certainly leaning towards Ford

1:02:45

Farrell at 10-12, Smith at 15

1:02:47

is sort of playmaking overkill, isn't it? I would

1:02:49

have. Other than those wingers, I would

1:02:51

say I didn't mean to totally kind of cast

1:02:54

the thought of picking Arendelle out there. I think

1:02:56

he would be, I would like to see either one

1:02:59

of him march. It seems

1:03:01

to me like, unless they stick with Daley, which

1:03:03

he's a real safety

1:03:05

blanket as far as the positioning and the aerial

1:03:10

exchanges, the kicking exchanges. But I

1:03:12

think if England are really looking to lift

1:03:14

their ceiling, they'll probably want two

1:03:17

of Arendelle, Marchant or Daley.

1:03:20

Why is that fair to say? Yeah, I mean, it sounds like

1:03:22

he's pushing with Dan Cole on the wing. Yeah, I mean,

1:03:24

I'd have Marchant and Arendelle on the wings, Lawrence

1:03:26

at 13 as an out and out

1:03:30

threat at 13 with Ford and Farrell, 10-12, and

1:03:33

then I'd have Smith and Daley with Youngs on the bench

1:03:35

because that brings something different off the

1:03:37

bench and you've got a lot of positional reflectability there.

1:03:39

And I'd also have, like you said, and like we've just discussed,

1:03:42

Dan, Willis, Martin, these guys who played

1:03:44

very well coming off the bench and

1:03:47

attempting to wreak havoc. I thought

1:03:49

Chesham off the bench looked very good as well again.

1:03:52

He's becoming very important, quietly important

1:03:54

to this team, I think. He was in the

1:03:56

warm-ups, he was obviously coming back off a very

1:03:59

long time.

1:03:59

and was still finding his

1:04:02

feet a little bit, I think

1:04:04

he's been very very good in this tournament so far. Just

1:04:06

to finish off on England, Dan Scanford

1:04:09

had a good story about Arendelle's availability

1:04:12

long term because he's joined the United

1:04:14

team in France and obviously that always gets a bit tricky

1:04:17

with the logistics of when he's eligible and when he

1:04:19

isn't particularly given that the RFU

1:04:21

have quite rightly allowed the

1:04:23

players who are part of the country winning to administration

1:04:25

to be selected.

1:04:26

While they're based on France, Arendelle can play

1:04:28

in the Six Nations, why is it rapping?

1:04:31

But he, as things stand, he

1:04:33

will not be available for the summer tour to Japan and

1:04:36

New Zealand. So I wonder

1:04:38

whether, I think for the World Cup, it's

1:04:40

such a short term thing, you just pick who you

1:04:42

think is best for the World Cup, they won't be thinking about the long

1:04:44

term. But it will be interesting when it gets to

1:04:46

Six Nations time whether they think,

1:04:49

well, you're not going to be around in New Zealand this

1:04:51

summer, whether they still pick him or whether they don't.

1:04:54

That's something that we'll have to keep an

1:04:56

eye on next spring.

1:04:56

France against Namibia

1:04:59

on Thursday night was

1:05:01

all going along fairly nicely and everyone

1:05:04

was just checking their fancy points

1:05:06

for Damion Penno and then there

1:05:08

was a, sorry Charlie, can

1:05:11

you express that group as the inaudible? I

1:05:13

don't want to talk about it but I didn't have it. I had

1:05:16

Jalibare, I captained up Jalibare. Do you not

1:05:18

have Penno at all? No. Wow.

1:05:21

Or Arendelle. I'm not

1:05:23

sure. I'm not sure. That's how you say

1:05:25

it. So yeah, it was all going well and then Jairon

1:05:28

Duesle, he caught Antoine

1:05:30

Dupont on the cheek and France. France

1:05:32

went into meltdown on Thursday night

1:05:34

and into Friday morning. Charles, can you just give us

1:05:37

the latest on what's going on

1:05:39

with Antoine Dupont, when might he return

1:05:42

and will he have anything interesting

1:05:44

on his face when he does? Well this

1:05:46

is the million dollar question, isn't it? The latest

1:05:49

is that he's back with the squad

1:05:51

on Thursday. He'll return to

1:05:53

camp. He's currently at home

1:05:55

resting. He had surgery late on Friday

1:05:58

night. and

1:06:00

they're expecting him to return to training on Sunday,

1:06:03

which is really quite miraculous. That is, if he

1:06:05

continues showing those signs of concussion, because

1:06:07

obviously there's the cheek fracture at play here,

1:06:10

but there's obviously an HIA and a concussion

1:06:12

protocol and return to play protocol that he must follow

1:06:14

as well, because it was a really strong blow

1:06:17

to the face. And then

1:06:19

on Friday, he will go for an appointment

1:06:21

to explore the possibility of

1:06:23

having a Haranordike-style

1:06:26

mask fitted, which

1:06:28

presumably he will play with to

1:06:31

expedite his return to action potentially

1:06:33

for a quarterfinal is what the latest

1:06:35

reports in France are. They're saying that he's out of

1:06:38

the Italy game, which I think we all sort of

1:06:40

expected, which is still quite big

1:06:42

news, because as we've already mentioned, France have

1:06:44

to win that game, and they will have to win that

1:06:47

game now without their captain and their

1:06:49

talisman at scrim half, and Maxime Leuchou

1:06:52

is seemingly destined to start at scrim

1:06:54

half there, and then they might

1:06:56

even be without him for a quarterfinal against

1:06:58

potentially South Africa. But the hope is with

1:07:00

mask, he might be back for a quarter,

1:07:03

and I think it's looking very,

1:07:06

very, very likely that he'll be back for a semi

1:07:09

if France get there. That's your round up. Let's

1:07:11

get into your readers questions.

1:07:16

Thank you very much for your questions. As ever,

1:07:18

please do just send them in to us over on, oh,

1:07:21

I hate calling it X. Let's just

1:07:23

send them to us on Twitter on Sundays and

1:07:25

Mondays. I promise we will consider

1:07:27

them all carefully and then use them in the

1:07:29

podcast. Once we start with one that we had from

1:07:31

Mike, and he said, all this chat about Stuart or Smith,

1:07:34

how likely do you think it is that we see them on the field

1:07:36

together,

1:07:37

changing roles depending on circumstance? There

1:07:39

was a period, Charlie, where we were quite keen on pretty, Stuart,

1:07:42

as a winger, wasn't there? Oh, wait, were we keen

1:07:44

on it, or were England keen on it? I can't. I

1:07:47

don't mind it. Stuart and Slade

1:07:50

and Farrell and Smith were all on the pitch together

1:07:52

with Slade at fullback, I think, in

1:07:54

that last, in the finale of the game against New Zealand,

1:07:56

certainly possible the one reservation

1:07:59

I'd have. with it is

1:08:01

your defensive setup is going to be compromised

1:08:03

somehow even if it's with the backfield

1:08:05

and we saw messing around with the backfield what's just

1:08:08

stuck in my mind potentially because it's the best bit of

1:08:10

skill I think I've ever seen live is Antoine's

1:08:12

epence, left foot is 50-22, that

1:08:14

was when England were trying to muck around with the backfield a bit. So

1:08:17

there

1:08:18

are, they're going to

1:08:20

be sort of, trade offs England are going to have to

1:08:22

make everywhere to get the backline they

1:08:24

want, it's just about being smart. And I don't

1:08:26

think, I don't think Stuart is against the big

1:08:29

four nations, I think in a semi-final I don't think Stuart's

1:08:31

quick enough, I think they're back three, they're back three will

1:08:33

exploit him. He's quick enough to play fullback

1:08:35

and I'm not saying he's slow but if you look at the sort

1:08:37

of back threes of the other nations you look at the the

1:08:40

Colby Arendtzer, you look at France

1:08:42

who have got Penno and BLB are

1:08:44

a I don't think, I think they could

1:08:46

skin Stuart. They could skin Stuart.

1:08:48

Just to combine two

1:08:50

questions we had from one from Worcester

1:08:52

Faithful and another from Lance Browning who's the former,

1:08:55

the Gloucester Chief Exact, just basically both getting

1:08:57

at the same thing, how do we sort

1:08:59

of reduce these mismatches that

1:09:02

we're occasionally seeing where teams are getting pumped

1:09:04

by loads of points and also make sure that we're

1:09:06

giving the lights of Portugal and Georgia and

1:09:08

Spain and the other teams regular

1:09:10

game time by coming up with

1:09:13

a new tournament or more matches, what's your

1:09:15

solution Charlie? I think first it's dangerous to say that

1:09:17

it's been a

1:09:19

completely positive tournament for the emerging

1:09:21

nations because Romania and Namibia

1:09:23

have been disappointing. It's kind of Fiji

1:09:25

and Uruguay isn't it? Yeah, for sure. Portugal

1:09:27

as well although they, you know, although as we

1:09:30

said earlier that draw with Georgia isn't a massively

1:09:32

shock result. I think it's time certainly to

1:09:35

have a coherent strategy around it and whether

1:09:37

because it seems a bit haphazard whereby

1:09:39

the sort of positive things like the Fiji-Druer

1:09:42

side and the Moana-Pacifica side in

1:09:44

Super Rugby aren't necessarily part

1:09:46

of a wider plan or they don't seem to

1:09:48

be, maybe I'm being

1:09:49

unfair there.

1:09:50

So one positive

1:09:53

thing that keeps coming back on these

1:09:55

T2 Rugby on Twitter that's a sort of major advocate

1:09:57

of it is that it's just expanding that end of the tournament.

1:10:00

the six

1:10:02

nations competition. So those

1:10:05

teams in the Rugby Europe Championship can have

1:10:08

a grounding at age group level because that's

1:10:10

just gonna

1:10:12

be positive. It's gonna pay it forward,

1:10:14

hopefully. You'd hope that. And the age-old

1:10:16

thing as well, that always, you know, is the classic,

1:10:18

the cliche, that always rears its head, is

1:10:20

promotion and relegation to the six nations in some form,

1:10:23

even if that involves a playoff. They

1:10:25

are, the home nations and France

1:10:28

and Italy are staunchly against it. We are told

1:10:30

and we're told it's not gonna happen, but it's just such a surefire

1:10:33

way to ensure that, certainly

1:10:35

in Europe, anyway, in Europe, that those

1:10:37

emerging nations get, sort

1:10:39

of, that they have something to play for and they have a carrot,

1:10:42

a reason to improve and to continue

1:10:45

to this trajectory of improvement, which

1:10:47

has been mightily impressive. You know, you look at where

1:10:49

Portugal were and where they are now, and

1:10:52

certainly, you know, Spain had often

1:10:54

forgotten about in this because obviously they were booted

1:10:56

out of the tournament because they feel an ineligible player.

1:10:59

But they are beneath

1:11:02

Georgia, they're the emerging nation. They are the coming

1:11:04

nation. The club scene

1:11:07

there is thriving. And

1:11:09

the national team have seen vast, vast improvements and

1:11:12

they should really be at this World Cup in

1:11:14

place of Romania. So

1:11:16

that's the way, these nations need

1:11:19

more competitive fixtures against

1:11:23

better nations more regularly. I would open

1:11:25

it up, the World Cup, up to 24 teams as well. I

1:11:28

would be an advocate of that because the

1:11:30

main drawback seems that we get more hideings,

1:11:32

more thrashings, but we're getting them anyway now

1:11:34

with 20. So why not give

1:11:37

these teams some exposure, more

1:11:39

exposure, more exposure to high level rugby. I know

1:11:41

they need it between the tournaments as well,

1:11:43

but let's start somewhere, you know.

1:11:46

Might be one for our post-group stage, kind of

1:11:48

deep dive into the tournament so we could spend about half an hour

1:11:50

trying to work out how to fix

1:11:52

that. And just a final question from John about the All

1:11:54

Blacks who we haven't spoken about because they've

1:11:57

had a bit of time off and they've kind of been

1:11:59

able to watch our... in South Africa from

1:12:01

afar and he says,

1:12:04

they'll be a full strength through Italy so we're waiting to see their

1:12:06

intensity. No one's really talking about them.

1:12:09

What can we kind of expect from them? I

1:12:11

spoke to a couple of Kiwi journalists who were at the Wales

1:12:13

Australia game who were quite

1:12:15

downbeat actually on just

1:12:17

whether New Zealand have enough

1:12:20

to really trouble Ireland and South Africa and France,

1:12:22

which actually made me

1:12:25

take a bit of a step back because I'd sort of been wondering about

1:12:28

whether they were a threat. Charlie, what do you

1:12:30

think? To steal someone else's opinion

1:12:32

a little bit again, the, I was with Stuart

1:12:34

Barnes for a little bit of last weekend and he said

1:12:36

the difference with this A-B's team versus

1:12:39

previous iterations is that they've got

1:12:41

a horrible 15 minutes or 20

1:12:43

minutes in them, whereas other All

1:12:45

Blacks teams didn't have that and I think that's

1:12:47

fairly pertinent when you think about how they collapsed against

1:12:49

England for example at Tukinam. I

1:12:51

keep thinking about how they picked

1:12:54

apart South Africa in Auckland

1:12:56

fairly recently and how that can be their sort

1:12:58

of ceiling. However, they've

1:13:00

probably got more chunks in

1:13:02

their armour than other previous

1:13:05

sides. I agree with John that

1:13:07

the Italy game's gonna be quite interesting.

1:13:10

They're missing Ethan DeGroote for that, which is a big

1:13:12

loss and I agree

1:13:15

that Ireland will have to be 100% on for

1:13:17

that quarterfinal because there'll

1:13:19

be a bit of simmering resentment from New Zealand

1:13:21

about that series that kicked Ireland into

1:13:24

gear, but at the minute you'd say Ireland were kind

1:13:26

of fairly significant favourites, wouldn't you? And you'd

1:13:28

wanna see a bit more from New Zealand before

1:13:30

that quarterfinal.

1:13:31

Right, that's it for today. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you,

1:13:33

Charles. And a big thanks to Pete Wilkins as well for his

1:13:35

insight on Bandiaki in Ireland. There's

1:13:38

no game for England or Ireland all Wales

1:13:40

this weekend, so a bit of a quieter weekend

1:13:43

on the horizon, but still lots of games, still plenty to

1:13:45

keep up with from the Rugby World Cup on the website, so please

1:13:48

keep an eye out for all of our work and all of the work of

1:13:50

our colleagues as well. There's gonna be lots to dive into. Enjoy

1:13:53

all the action. We'll catch you next week, but until

1:13:55

then, thank you and goodbye.

1:14:00

you