0:01

The Telegraph Podcasts

0:14

Hello everyone. This is the point where

0:16

Barry Manilow's Looks Like We Made It would start

0:18

playing, but the copyright costs

0:21

are extortionate. So instead,

0:24

let's just appreciate that we've all made it to the

0:26

end of the 2023 Rugby World Cup in one

0:29

piece. Well, just about. I'm

0:31

Ben Coles, joined as ever, and

0:34

for the last time in 2023, unless we

0:36

have to break the glass and do

0:38

another emergency podcast, I'm joined by

0:40

Charlie Morgan. How's it, Charlie?

0:42

Hi, Coler. And by

0:44

Charles Richardson. Salute, Charles. Hi,

0:47

Ben. Gents, don't

0:50

be sad it's over. Smile, because

0:52

it happened. Charlie, how was

0:54

Paris? You were there. Tell us about it.

0:56

I was. The weather was gloomy,

0:59

but I was absorbed

1:01

by the final. So

1:03

yeah, it kind of finished on

1:06

a fittingly tense note, didn't it? And

1:09

yeah, the kind of the Sunday and the Monday

1:11

I was there for a lot of the Monday too, was obviously

1:14

certainly a little bit gloomy. Well,

1:16

given the weather, one, but also the feeling

1:18

that everything was all the energy was

1:20

sort of dipping after the tournament. Yeah,

1:23

great overall.

1:25

Controversially, can I can

1:27

I say that I'm happy it's over? No,

1:30

I think that's fine. I think

1:32

that's the general. I'm

1:35

happy it's over. Racism storm.

1:37

Referees getting death threats. No,

1:40

no more. So get me back, get

1:42

me back to the stoop. The

1:46

stoop is ready for you whenever

1:48

you want to return to the stoop. It has felt

1:50

I was I was doing like

1:53

a recap awards piece on

1:56

Sunday and Monday. And I completely forgot that we had

1:58

a Ryder Cup in the middle of it.

1:59

all this? Do

2:02

you remember that?

2:04

That was in the pool stages. It

2:06

has been an extraordinarily long

2:10

tournament. Charlie,

2:13

in terms of

2:28

the tournament. I think

2:31

it took them a while to get through the mix zone. That started

2:33

at 1am. They changed

2:35

into their champions t-shirts.

2:37

There was just the

2:41

dip of energy after the

2:44

euphoria. There were so

2:47

many elementeers, such a release

2:50

of emotion. It

2:52

was funny, wasn't it, that was a final.

2:55

It was a classic kind of early-ish

2:57

sending off game where the

3:00

side who have that advantage tightened

3:02

up a bit. I thought South Africa didn't

3:06

get the points for

3:08

how controlled and muscular

3:10

they were at the start and how rattled

3:14

they had New Zealand. New Zealand were phenomenal.

3:18

Jubilation, this feeling we have spoken

3:21

about, it was such a long, draining

3:26

tournament that seemed to go through different seasons.

3:28

Adaptability, I have written somewhere

3:33

that adaptability in World Cups

3:35

is never more true than in this one. Elation

3:39

to get over the line, but exhaustion

3:41

too.

3:42

The whole World Cup have teamed

3:45

not quite leading by as much

3:47

as they probably should be. Thinking about France against

3:50

South Africa, thinking about England against South

3:53

Africa when they could have potentially cured it off.

3:55

What was it? 12-6

3:57

at half-time to South Africa when it felt as though they had

3:59

been. Have you dominated that first

4:01

half? Charlie did Trevor

4:04

Niekani dance into the mix-in,

4:06

is a question I have to ask. He's a great man

4:09

and I'd love that if he did. Do you

4:11

know what? He didn't. He didn't. But he

4:14

was

4:14

so gracious to everybody around him. He

4:16

didn't dance in, but

4:18

the players go through the sort of TV

4:20

area and they might do a kind of vision interview

4:23

and then they arrive at this kind of throng

4:25

of writers and everybody

4:28

gathers around them over the... you're kind

4:31

of separated by a barrier. And

4:33

I was speaking to Felix Jones and I just saw him

4:35

sort of over my left shoulder and

4:38

he was just going along just sort

4:40

of really graciously and humbly,

4:43

sort of thanking

4:45

every journalist that was congratulating him. And

4:47

it was really, really touching. I actually saw

4:49

his dancing at some point

4:52

on Sunday morning, very early

4:54

on Sunday morning when I sort

4:56

of checked with him. And that was great. He is

4:59

a serious mover.

5:00

Yeah, yeah, he's got moves. He's

5:02

got moves. He's got moves, Cudon, you as well, getting in there with Felix

5:04

Jones before you start seeing a

5:06

lot more of him at Peniel Park and everything

5:09

forward before he joins the England set-up as well. Just

5:11

a quick word on him.

5:13

Yeah, well, full disclosure to take

5:15

you behind the curtain as we've been trying to

5:17

do this World Cup. Somebody would come round

5:19

and say, can you – have

5:22

you got any requests for the mix zone? And

5:24

there were a few players ticked off. And I was with

5:27

a couple of the Irish guys and we said, Felix

5:30

Jones would tick a lot of boxes for all of

5:32

us. And he was great, actually.

5:35

He was – I asked him about – I was

5:37

doing a piece on Ninarbor and Erasmus and

5:39

how they dovetailed together. And he's seen

5:41

that at close quarters for seven years since

5:44

they were all at Munster together. And he was really interesting

5:46

on that. Very interesting on England.

5:50

He was obviously complimentary, as you'd expect

5:52

him to be. He said, look, England

5:54

nearly had us in the semi-final. He said that

5:57

the players had shown a foundation of work.

7:20

for

8:00

the Springboks and I really did think New

8:02

Zealand were going to nick it even with 14. At half

8:04

time I still felt that New Zealand,

8:07

if one team could come back and

8:09

from a six-point gap

8:12

with 14 men against the odds in

8:14

a World Cup final it was New Zealand and they almost

8:16

did, they almost did but they didn't get

8:18

quite there.

8:20

You disagreeing with my referee

8:22

reaction piece which I had to write in the moment

8:24

about whether the yellow card was the right call

8:26

because I felt not quite British

8:28

about

8:29

that. So yeah, so

8:32

my thought would be that

8:36

I think that when Barnes got

8:38

them right on the night, however

8:41

it comes back to the Tom

8:45

Curry, Malia

8:47

and Carreras comparisons

8:51

that we made from the opening weekend whereby

8:54

as a neutral, well

8:56

as a casual fan or even as

8:58

a sort of more invested fan, is

9:01

rugby, the laws of rugby in a healthy

9:04

enough spot whereby one of those tackles

9:06

is a game ending and

9:08

game changing red cards and the

9:11

other is

9:11

a yellow because really the difference

9:14

in the two actions is so minimal

9:17

and the outcomes really

9:19

both players should have left for an HIA, let's be honest

9:22

because neither did, that's a separate point entirely

9:24

but both players should have left for an HIA so there was significant

9:27

impact to the head. Both

9:30

players made clear head contact and I'm just not

9:33

sure that rugby is in a sort of

9:35

reasonable and rational and logical space

9:38

with its laws and interpretations around headshots

9:41

if one of those is red and the

9:43

other one is yellow especially where it's basically

9:45

deciding the game in a World Cup final.

9:49

I thought, so two things, I thought that Alan

9:51

Thay's piece on it is a sort of, I think

9:53

it's really valuable sometimes for rugby to get an

9:56

outsider's perspective, that sounds really

9:58

superior doesn't it but somebody that isn't

10:00

necessarily as embedded in the game as other people

10:03

who are thinking about those things. That's a really

10:05

good piece on our website. The other thing that I

10:07

kept thinking about during the game,

10:09

and you found yourself,

10:12

tell me if this is kind of misguided, you found yourself

10:14

almost wanting the Khaleesi one to be

10:16

a red card as well, so it would be evened up. But

10:19

that called to

10:22

mind what JP Doyle said on

10:24

our podcast earlier in the tournament, where he's saying, if you,

10:27

on the face of it, a lot of these things look very similar,

10:30

but when you think about the decisions

10:32

in isolation, they're like snowflakes because

10:34

they're all so different and made up of so

10:36

many different parts. And that's fair

10:38

enough, sure, but it's

10:40

also sort of so difficult to get your head round

10:43

if you're not totally embedded

10:45

in it as a fanatic. But even

10:47

if you are totally embedded in it, I just think that

10:50

Rugby can't continue to be this

10:53

sort of sport where only five people know

10:55

what's going on. It's not

10:57

good enough for world Rugby

11:00

to turn around and say, oh, these were all the correct

11:02

decisions, and we believe so. Interior,

11:05

we think so. Our 10 group of

11:08

officials and their leader think that all the right decisions

11:11

were made, so that's the end of it.

11:13

I'm not sure that's good enough, and I'm not sure that's the way

11:15

that Rugby grows, frankly, because I

11:18

know that the two incidents were different,

11:20

and they were, and they were obvious, for

11:24

starters, Khaleesi was bent at the hip, whereas Sam Kane

11:26

wasn't. But even so, it's still

11:29

just clear, sort

11:31

of reckless head contact, clumsy

11:34

head contact, even unintentional head

11:37

contact, and how

11:39

one can be red and one can be yellow. I just

11:42

don't think that maybe it's the punishments,

11:44

maybe it's the difference in the punishments,

11:47

perhaps, where Rugby

11:49

is slightly off kilter, because

11:52

one of those tackles led

11:55

to the New Zealand captain spending the entire match on

11:57

the sidelines, and one of them led to the South

11:59

Africa captain spending... 10 minutes on the sidelines. So

12:01

maybe a 20 minute yellow card is

12:04

the answer in order to even up

12:06

those punishments. I'm not sure, I don't

12:08

know, I don't have the answers but I certainly think that

12:11

the disparity in punishment certainly

12:13

for those two incidents, even if they

12:15

were different, is

12:20

not portraying rugby in the

12:22

best light at the minute.

12:23

So after

12:27

we were back to back World

12:29

Cup champions, after we had New Zealand,

12:31

we were back to back World

12:34

Cup champions. The one thing I kept thinking

12:36

about as I left the office on Saturday night was actually

12:38

how this

12:40

had been a bit of an embarrassment for

12:43

the Northern Hemisphere

12:45

because we'd sort of had the situation where,

12:48

you know, there was so much hope and expectation around France

12:50

and Ireland and it's two coin-flip games but actually

12:52

New Zealand is after you still

12:55

run the game and at the moment, this

12:57

is three blocks who are on top. Charlie, I'm a

13:00

bit sad that Jack Neenar was going to Leinster

13:02

because I sort of want to see if Razi

13:05

and Jack can run it back for a third

13:07

time when the World Cup in a row.

13:09

I mean, four years is a long time and

13:12

you never know who said he won't come

13:14

back after a couple of years but where

13:17

do you think this team kind of sits and

13:19

do you think, you know, in four years time

13:22

are we going to be chatting about South African World Champions

13:24

again?

13:27

I'd be very interested to see how Neenarva

13:30

works out at Leinster and whether

13:33

he does come back, as you say, four years is a hell of a long

13:35

time and those two seem to

13:38

gravitate towards each other, don't they?

13:41

I got asked about where

13:44

they sort of stood as a side and

13:46

greatest ever debate. I think that

13:51

you can separate greatest ever World

13:53

Cup side and greatest ever side

13:56

sort of more generally and

13:58

I think they'd have much more of a chance of of

14:00

being in the former. And I

14:02

think that your criteria there are

14:04

how close all of those knockout games

14:06

are and how they've managed to navigate them, how this

14:09

last tournament was on

14:12

the face of it really open with the

14:15

top four so far ahead of each other. And

14:17

for them to have beaten, I know they lost to

14:19

Ireland, I know they lost to Ireland in

14:21

the group stage, but to beat

14:25

France and then beat New Zealand, I

14:28

think is just such a huge achievement,

14:32

hugely impressive. Can they go

14:34

for a third? They're gonna have

14:36

to remodel a lot of their squad, I think.

14:40

A lot of them are on the aging side, however, they've

14:42

also shown a willingness to

14:45

pick guys that sort of in their mid and

14:47

even late thirties, they have a lot

14:49

of players playing in Japan, which we

14:52

sort of know is less kind of abrasive

14:55

or has seemed to be less abrasive and

14:57

less arduous for players and has

14:59

the potential to prolong those careers. What

15:01

was really interesting was that they were, I

15:04

wouldn't say they were bullish in much of the press

15:06

that they did and much of the messaging

15:08

that they were putting out, but one thing that they were

15:10

from, the first time I heard

15:12

Nienaab had mentioned it and he might have mentioned it before, but

15:15

was after the Qatar Cup

15:17

at Coquilum when they pumped

15:19

New Zealand, he said that this result isn't

15:21

gonna matter because the World

15:23

Cup and us getting to four and becoming the first

15:26

side to get to four, as well as retaining

15:28

it and becoming the second side to do that, that's

15:30

what really matters to us. They had this higher

15:32

purpose. So

15:34

becoming the first side to do

15:36

it three times, you imagine if you fast forward,

15:39

that will be a really, really big drive. Can I

15:41

be a bit contrarian and butt in? Can

15:43

I offer the point that I think

15:46

the fact that they only won their knockout

15:48

matches by one point, it

15:50

actually fights against them in

15:53

the argument for the greatest World Cup

15:55

team either ever because New

15:58

Zealand 2015. just demolished

16:01

everybody at a cancer and retained

16:04

their back-to-back titles from 2011

16:08

to 2015 and absolutely obliterated

16:10

everybody. So I don't think

16:12

that South Africa quite hit that level yet

16:15

but I must admit they are pretty close

16:17

and for them to

16:20

beat France and New Zealand, well

16:23

I mean I suppose they did lose to Ireland but for them to beat France

16:26

and New Zealand in the knockouts and an almighty

16:28

English effort really really was impressive

16:31

and they were worthy winners in the end

16:33

but I don't think they're quite up there with

16:35

the with the 2015 All Blacks just yet.

16:38

The only thing I'd say to that Charles

16:41

is that it's a fair point

16:43

but they've also the kind

16:45

of gauntlet they had to run I think

16:49

is a bit harder than teams

16:51

have had to do in the past. I sort of went through

16:53

the past World Cup Champions

16:55

Road to success for a piece on on

16:58

Sunday and there was always kind of the

17:00

tended to be like a blowout somewhere along

17:03

the way in the quarterfinals or like

17:05

at least like a 10-12 point

17:08

win and also South Africa were

17:10

facing, they've had to face

17:12

the other top five teams

17:15

and the top six for them so it was in this tournament

17:17

and they'd lost one of those to Ireland

17:19

so they've kind of faced they really have

17:21

faced the best in the world there's been

17:23

no gimmes I wonder if that kind of strengthens

17:26

their argument more. I

17:28

don't necessarily think this

17:30

will sound like I'm really splitting heads I don't think they're

17:32

necessarily the best collection

17:35

of players to win a World Cup I

17:37

think the 2015 All Blacks are probably better

17:40

same with England in 2003

17:42

maybe would be a strong case and also

17:45

the 1999 Wallabies

17:47

come to think of it but I but

17:50

in terms of the best team in terms of the

17:52

best kind of

17:54

a group of players playing for each other and getting the best

17:57

out of each other I think that's

17:59

what makes the I think John Gnarber

18:01

even said this, Charlie, you might remember quite better,

18:04

he even said that we might

18:06

not necessarily have the best players in each

18:08

position, but we have the right players.

18:10

I think he said we have the right players for what we

18:13

want to achieve as a team and I think that's kind

18:15

of what shone through for me in terms of where

18:17

this team might rank.

18:19

I

18:21

think that plays into what a job Erasmus

18:23

and Gnarber have done as a coaching duo

18:26

and not to, and I'm sure that the

18:28

other guys around them, Felix Jones and

18:31

those guys have done a huge job

18:33

as well, but it's how resourceful they are. So

18:36

how they, you know, the 7-1 split is

18:38

a great example of a

18:41

side sort of dragging a game towards how

18:43

they want to play it and I think that's hugely

18:46

admirable as well. I agree

18:49

with, I think both of you have made the point that 2015

18:52

All Black Size Special, probably more rounded,

18:54

probably had more star power

18:56

as far as individual players.

18:59

Well, I have remarkable stuff. I didn't know

19:02

they had a chunk of sort

19:04

of all-time great, iconic players within that,

19:07

but I just think in World Cups you are,

19:09

they are just this such a weird

19:12

isolated ecosystem where for two

19:15

months it feels like anything can happen and I

19:17

think navigating that and I agree

19:19

with Ben, the difficulty

19:22

of South Africa's run, in

19:25

contrast to the difficulty of their run in 2019 actually,

19:28

in 2023 they had a much more difficult route

19:31

and to navigate that just speaks

19:34

volumes for their adaptability,

19:37

their resourcefulness and actually the sort

19:40

of innovative tweaks that they've

19:42

made along the way.

19:46

Charles, let's chat about the cards a bit more

19:48

because we sort of touched on it a bit earlier.

19:50

So with the Kane, the Kane one

19:53

on Jesse Creel, I'll admit when I first

19:55

watched the replay there I thought that

19:57

Creel was kind of changing direction.

20:01

active mitigation but they seem to come

20:03

to the conclusion that Karina changed

20:05

direction early enough that Kane

20:08

had time to adjust his body height I

20:10

mean I don't know yeah maybe

20:12

it looks like that in the slow mode but I thought

20:14

it played in real time

20:16

that was kind of tight nevertheless

20:19

Kane is self right it's clear heady

20:21

on

20:21

top it's not a lot of mitigation like

20:24

I don't think I can't really see I can't

20:27

see a way around that being a red really

20:29

can you

20:31

no no not at all it was stonewall I think

20:34

it was stonewall and I think as soon as he I think

20:38

he might have known as well he didn't look like a happy man

20:40

sat on that seat plastic

20:44

chair of death on the sidelines and

20:50

yet you're absolutely right I mean he was too high he was

20:52

too high a change of direction doesn't you know it

20:54

doesn't there's nothing to mitigate

20:57

against the fact that a player is too high if you're too

20:59

high then a change of direction really doesn't actually

21:01

mean anything because it's only a change

21:03

of body height from the attacker that's going to mean it's

21:06

going to mean something

21:08

and he was

21:09

too high and he paid the consequences for

21:12

it's the only tackle he's got wrong in the entire

21:14

tournament and I'm guessing he'll be playing that through

21:17

despite his fabulous performances in the in

21:20

the in the knockouts and he was very good at the start

21:22

of that final as well and his his you know

21:24

his his unbelievable

21:26

game against Ireland I'm sure that's the tackle he'll be playing

21:28

through in his mind for years and years I

21:31

was just thinking what mad world copies

21:33

had yeah because he mostly went from being kind of written

21:35

off as he was even gonna

21:37

start out of Doulton's happily and

21:39

then it was no he's back in for

21:41

the court is and he plays arguably

21:43

the game of his was all blacks career with

21:47

that performance against Ireland it was very good

21:49

in the semi-final and then this

21:51

happens I mean yeah he's really he's

21:53

really been through the ring yeah well captain

21:56

hindsight maybe maybe maybe doctor properly

21:58

you should have started Yeah,

22:00

maybe. Although

22:03

that then gave us the dillton-pappily moment

22:06

at the end for the tap tackle. Oh yeah, the tap

22:08

tackle. We'll chat about it a bit later. Charlie,

22:12

I mean it's pretty horrible, isn't it? What was Cain

22:14

like afterwards?

22:16

I thought incredibly impressive, but

22:18

genuinely incredible ability

22:22

to front up and actually talk

22:25

about it. And his voice was sort

22:27

of quivering with the emotion of it, which was totally

22:30

understandable. And he, I've

22:32

forgotten the line now, but it's something like, something

22:35

like I'm going to have to live with this forever. He

22:38

refused to sort of, yeah,

22:41

he was quite chilling actually. He sort of

22:45

refused to sort of said that we'd been at this tournament for

22:47

two months and the

22:50

atmosphere of the tournament was always felt that that

22:52

was going to be a red. Just,

22:56

you just felt brutal for him.

22:59

Because yeah,

23:03

I just think it's one of those in the final.

23:06

Do you take more heed

23:09

of that mitigation? I thought

23:11

there was a live, and this is the thing, a live, it

23:15

was, he hit Creel, they both went down

23:17

at that ruck, Khaleesi joins the ruck and he taps

23:19

his head towards Wayne

23:22

Barnes. And you

23:24

know then, even if there's, he's playing

23:26

as a human, we can talk about all this

23:28

rubbish about values as much as we want, but

23:30

they're going to, it's their prerogative

23:33

to sort of highlight these things, they

23:35

think it's going to get an advantage.

23:38

And you almost always get that feeling,

23:40

that ominous feeling of yeah, that's

23:43

going to be close. And we know enough, we've seen

23:45

enough now. It's just

23:47

up to, yeah, it just goes

23:49

to chance straight away. And Kane

23:52

knew, and that's what his sort of answer reflected

23:55

was that I gave, I put myself

23:57

in that position, you know, so I can't have any

23:59

complaints. but I thought it was remarkable

24:01

that he was that measured about

24:04

it. He'd obviously had quite a lot to think about his answer

24:06

with his beat-off, but obviously, it's a

24:08

minute. But no, he was really,

24:10

really impressive. The Springboks were at that

24:12

appealing all game, though. I'm surprised that Wayne Barnes didn't

24:14

nip it in the bud a little bit earlier. There

24:17

were numerous times where I think it

24:19

was Damien Villemza was caught a little bit high

24:21

as he was falling to the ground and he gave it the

24:24

theatrics and Wayne

24:27

Barnes sort of said, I know you were falling, but I thought

24:29

he might go over and actually have an official

24:32

word with him and just say, look, this needs

24:34

to stop now because it's getting

24:36

a little bit much. And I think you

24:39

never saw it at all from the All Blacks. And I don't know

24:41

if that's just another example of South Africa

24:44

sort of being a little bit more wily

24:46

and streetwise and playing the officials slightly

24:49

better and just pushing the

24:51

absolute limit of what is possible

24:53

with the officials on a rugby field.

24:55

What did you think of the Channell Fazelle one? I

24:57

thought it was clumsy more

25:00

than more than deliberate, especially

25:04

when we had I felt like we had about 20 replays

25:06

of it, didn't we? But

25:09

yeah, it felt more

25:11

it felt more kind of accidental

25:13

than deliberately cynical trying to target

25:15

his leg. Maybe I'm being overly

25:18

sympathetic there. But it was quite early,

25:20

wasn't it? And yeah.

25:22

So I thought I thought that I

25:24

was concerned that that might be a red because

25:27

the referees had been told that that

25:30

anything like that, you know, falling onto

25:32

the lower limb, a ruck was a was a red

25:34

card. I remember an incident. Gloucester Gloucester

25:37

La Rochelle in the Champions Cup last year, Jean-Jean

25:40

Rie Colombe, the huge breeze block

25:42

prop at La Rochelle was yellow

25:44

carded for

25:48

for exactly the same thing. Admittedly,

25:50

he's a much bigger bloke than Channell Fazelle.

25:53

And afterwards, the Gloucester the

25:55

Gloucester coaching staff were like, well, we've

25:57

been told that that That

26:00

was sort of a weird kind of offense. And so we're a bit

26:02

confused as to why it wasn't. He

26:05

then comes to ban, I know it's

26:07

not the same as that Shannon Friseau didn't aim

26:09

at the legs. He sort of slips off and falls

26:12

on. And it is accidental and it is clumsy.

26:15

But the end result is the same, isn't it? I mean, I don't know. I

26:17

thought we were taking intent out of this

26:19

sort of stuff. One thing that I am surprised that they didn't check,

26:22

especially with how sort of meticulous

26:24

Tom Foley is, his TMO is that at Beth

26:27

Forum. That's

26:29

at the fore arm in the first half. I mean, it's

26:31

such a shame that we're sitting here again, doing all this and

26:34

just analyzing little incidents. But

26:36

that's the game brother. And

26:41

I really thought that they

26:44

would check that live. It looked dodgy on the replays.

26:46

It looked quite dodgy as well. And I was surprised

26:48

that they didn't check that

26:52

it looked easily a penalty, maybe yellow card.

26:54

And also, I thought Andre

26:56

Pollard might have to go off for blood as well. But they managed

26:59

to keep them on somehow. Not sure how they

27:01

managed that, despite the fact they didn't have any

27:03

fly-off on the bench.

27:05

Just some quick fine notes

27:07

to wrap up this section. Pauli

27:10

Chavain, I think you

27:13

mentioned Pollard there. Didn't miss a kick at

27:15

all. I mean, absolutely incredible

27:18

that he didn't miss a kick and so after one three

27:20

knockout games by a single point, just a penalty.

27:24

I had to look up Dion Faris' last

27:26

start at Hooker just out of interest. It

27:28

was 2018 for Leon.

27:31

So he'd gone about five years

27:33

between kind of doing,

27:36

you know, actually being a hooker.

27:38

I mean, there seemed to be a bit of confusion because

27:40

he was listening to the back row and people didn't realize that,

27:42

you know, he had actually spent a lot of time

27:44

playing Hooker in his career, whether

27:47

he could do it. But he certainly was, you

27:49

know, rusty and done it for a while

27:51

outside the starting against Romania. I

27:54

want to say in group stages. So I thought

27:56

that was sensational. Yeah,

27:58

just to jump in on Dion.

27:59

and the mix-on chatting

28:02

to about 20 journalists in French, in pretty

28:04

good French at the end of

28:06

it, seriously cool, beer in hand. Really

28:12

quickly on Ninarba on him, they lost,

28:14

Charles, you

28:16

haven't spoken yet about New Zealand's line-out? No,

28:18

really, no. On both

28:21

sides of the board I thought, I was on player 18, he gave

28:23

Brodie a metallic 9, I thought he was phenomenal

28:25

in that area, but South Africa lost four

28:28

line-outs, and I was said afterwards,

28:30

I don't know how many line-outs we lost, but

28:33

I reckon Dion Fureau made about 15,

28:35

20 tackles and he made up for that.

28:38

Yeah, and what a man, Dion Fureau. All Blacks line-out,

28:41

awe-inspiring the entire tournament, absolute

28:44

props to the mastermind behind

28:46

it. One of the best I've ever seen,

28:48

immaculate. There was another game on

28:50

Friday night, which didn't mean as much, but

28:53

let's chat about a famous

28:55

bronze final victory for England.

29:01

Charlie, England are the third best

29:03

team at this rubbing wood gut, it's a fact,

29:05

isn't it? Just, you know, better than France,

29:08

better than Ireland. No,

29:11

listen, it was an interesting game

29:14

in terms of the first half, wasn't

29:18

the best. The second half got a

29:20

bit lively and actually quite

29:22

enjoyable at the end. What was

29:25

it like being a third-place player? I think

29:27

I did it for South

29:30

Africa, Argentina in 2015.

29:33

Actually I did, because I had to look up if

29:35

I had actually attended it and I found a match-port that I

29:37

did for another year.

29:40

So that was reassuring to know that I was actually

29:42

there. What was the mood like

29:45

in the South of France on Friday night?

29:48

It was actually quite lively, because

29:50

there were a lot of French people in them, they were booing

29:52

the heck out of Farrell

29:55

and England. We

29:58

said before, didn't we, last week, that... I

30:00

actually felt that it was, I mean it's

30:02

a dud game and to

30:04

borrow Phil Neville's term a bit of a nonsense

30:07

but I think it was really important

30:10

for England to consolidate what

30:12

they'd done against South Africa just by winning in

30:15

whatever way possible and they

30:17

did that just and they did that with a little bit

30:19

of a nod to the future as well with Theo

30:21

Dan seizing

30:25

redemption from the

30:27

jaws of a pretty dodgy missed tackle on Santiago

30:29

Carreras. That was quite funny.

30:32

He was also probably pretty lucky not to get

30:34

away with wacking. I think it was on

30:36

Cruz Malia over the line. But

30:40

no, they were holding on and they were a bit

30:42

fortunate and the squad that

30:45

was picked, I'm not sure whether

30:47

injuries played apart but they sort of ended up with

30:49

a really imbalanced back line with Farrell

30:52

at 12, Ford at 10, Marcus Smith still

30:55

on the pitch, Marchant at 14, Lawrence

30:58

at 13 and Stewart on one wing. So

31:02

it was kind of, yeah, not

31:05

sure they'll want to feel that again.

31:07

It was impressive that

31:12

they held on and they were dogged to the end.

31:15

Talking about forearms, Farrell caught one

31:18

in the face from Bruni. Also

31:20

quite funny that Farrell with the match-winning

31:23

penalty sneaked ahead of Thomas Ramos to be

31:25

the Golden Boot winner for the tournament. That's just

31:29

quite funny after having

31:31

missed the first two games as well. But

31:34

no, I think, yeah, they've snuck onto

31:36

the podium. I think they'll be pleased with that and

31:39

pleased with the kind

31:42

of fight they showed again. Just one more

31:45

note. Steve Boffick

31:47

said something quite interesting about finals

31:49

experience being important in World Cups

31:52

and how he thought that

31:54

the experiences of 2019 had helped them in 2023.

31:59

I think

32:01

that's a valid point and he said that actually

32:03

getting through that was pretty important

32:05

looking for the future because in 2027

32:08

he wants England to be challenging for

32:10

the gold medal rather than the bronze one.

32:13

Yeah, I'd have paid good

32:15

money to see an Owen Farrell golden

32:18

boot ceremony on the pitch just

32:20

to see what kind of

32:21

reaction has been a bit ridiculous.

32:22

He's been getting in the

32:25

last couple of weeks. There's no need

32:27

to have a whole stadium

32:30

on his back. It's kind of a bit far. Charles,

32:33

I'm kind of fascinated by England.

32:36

And I mean, I

32:39

appreciate the World Cup trophy has been

32:41

lifted about 10 seconds ago but

32:44

thinking ahead to this explanation which

32:46

always seems to come around scary quick after World

32:48

Cup. Like I'm kind of, yeah,

32:51

I'm wondering, I'm very intrigued by a lot

32:53

of selection areas and a lot of tactical areas

32:56

and the addition of Felix Jones. How

32:58

are you feeling about England?

33:00

Optimistic,

33:04

quietly optimistic I'd say. I'm not overboard.

33:06

I mean, I think that you can read too much into

33:09

Friday night's game really. I thought England were

33:11

excellent for the first 10 minutes

33:13

and then maybe just the almost

33:16

staleness of the occasion might have just

33:18

seeped into them and they just got a little bit flat,

33:21

a little bit ragged and a little bit disorganized. And

33:23

yet they still won. So that's

33:25

the positive to say against an Argentina team who,

33:28

okay, have not fired on all cylinders this tournament

33:30

but they've got some world-class players in there who can

33:32

really hurt you and who could have won that game

33:34

really. So I think winning

33:37

was impressive in the end. In

33:39

terms of the Six Nations, what we're going to hear from

33:42

England's Scrum half Jack Van Portfley in a minute, he

33:44

was saying that

33:47

there are parallels at England to what

33:49

Steve Borthwick did at Leicester when he went

33:51

in there. He built the foundations

33:53

in the first season, which is what sort of he's

33:56

done with England here. Admittedly, those

33:58

foundations were being built towards. rugby

34:00

showpiece which is a little bit unfortunate

34:02

in its timing for him but now

34:06

is where the layers start to come on and in

34:08

that second season with Leicester you

34:11

know they won the Premiership and Van Portflip

34:15

was basically saying that you

34:17

know this is where the attack will start to flourish

34:20

where there'll be depth where there'll be growth in

34:22

the attack we'll say added layers to England's

34:24

game and it's

34:27

about finding the balance they're not going to lose

34:29

the ethos of what made

34:31

that South Africa performance

34:33

so brilliant you know the physicality and

34:36

to be honest the kicking and the kick chase

34:38

they're not going to lose that but

34:41

maybe they might be able to just

34:43

have a few more strings to their bow to finish

34:45

off some of those half chances that

34:47

they had against the spring box and I think

34:50

that is now the four-year goal do

34:53

they have the players to do that now that's a that's

34:55

a separate debate I certainly

34:57

think I certainly think

34:59

they have some I think the the front

35:02

row in terms of depth is is

35:05

an area of weakness that it has

35:07

been identified by the RFU and is being worked

35:11

on I think elsewhere

35:14

they are strong they have at least one or two

35:16

class players in every position that

35:19

might just need a little bit of experience a little

35:21

bit of time but

35:23

I think the future in terms of this next

35:25

four-year cycle with Steve Borthwick

35:27

and how assiduously is in his coaching role

35:30

it will be bright for England will certainly have

35:32

none of the fun and games none of the antics of

35:35

his predecessor at least

35:37

Charles don't reveal any more about you

35:39

in today which happened Borthwick because we're going to

35:41

hear it right now you had a chat

35:43

with England and left the Scrum Marth earlier this week

35:46

let's hear what he had to say How

35:53

are you? How's the recovery from

35:55

injury going and when

35:57

will we be seeing you back on a rugby field?

35:59

No, I'm good. Thank you. Yeah, I'm good.

36:02

It's been Yeah,

36:03

funny few months bit bit different or what

36:06

not what you intended but

36:08

no, it's been good. It's been good

36:10

to come back to Tigers

36:14

crack on with my rehab and things here And

36:17

just slowly progressing that we can we can Add

36:21

some good bits. So this week into down

36:23

testing progressing on track. So hoping

36:25

to be back in the new year

36:28

sometime Yeah,

36:31

sort of early into next year.

36:33

Hopefully I'll be back playing and getting

36:35

a few Yeah back

36:37

for Tigers in that sort of time

36:40

period and what does that rehab entail? So is it quite

36:42

tricky with with the nature of the injury that you? Yeah,

36:46

I mean it was it was due to

36:48

be about four months the injury

36:51

With the ligament damage I did just

36:54

ripping them off the bone and things but the

36:56

issue

36:58

came was when I ripped all the ligaments off the

37:00

bone then the I

37:03

sort of broke off a load of cartilage and a load of

37:05

the Load of the

37:08

sort of

37:08

bits of bits of bone as well So that's

37:11

caused the sort of complication bit as well and just

37:14

with the new cartilage I've had put in I

37:16

can't really impact that for a while. So

37:19

Yeah, it was due to be six months. I'm

37:22

hoping to make that a little less but

37:25

Yeah, that's sort of where we are at the moment and

37:27

what was it what was it like? How's that just talk

37:29

us through the sort of past few months?

37:32

On an emotional level in terms of

37:34

when the injury happened in that in that Wells warm-up match

37:38

Until now and watching England get

37:40

to the same final while finishing third securing

37:43

that bronze medal Yeah, how is it is

37:45

it been a bit of a whirlwind for you watching the games

37:47

for England has been hard.

37:49

Yeah, really hard it's

37:51

weird like

37:53

you almost thought when I Thought

37:55

before the tournament happened watching the watching

37:58

the tournament you think like

38:00

If

38:02

they didn't do well it would almost feel better for

38:04

you, but then

38:06

watching them lose the semi-final

38:08

and going so well before

38:11

that and building week

38:13

on week and with a few dips and formances

38:15

but the way they kept building week on week and things

38:17

and then to the heartbreak

38:20

at

38:21

the,

38:22

by one point, South Africa was just,

38:25

I found it tough to process.

38:28

I felt so bad for all the boys,

38:32

all the lads that you've worked so hard with over the summer,

38:34

you just feel that,

38:36

felt so bad for them and I felt their pain

38:39

almost, so yeah, it definitely

38:41

wasn't easier not seeing them. Was it harder

38:43

or easier for you with the fact that

38:45

your replacement in the squad came

38:48

in and basically grabbed the shirt? Does that

38:50

make you feel almost more

38:54

concerned or does that give you

38:56

extra motivation for sort of what's to

38:58

come in the future? I mean obviously he

39:00

came in and Alex Mitchell was excellent. Did

39:05

you sort of think, oh that's Sodd's Law or did you think,

39:07

okay well then this has given me something to work towards

39:10

for when I'm back?

39:12

No,

39:13

I think as soon as I knew

39:16

I couldn't play the World Cup I

39:18

was just devastated not to be going to the World Cup.

39:21

I wasn't angry that someone else was taking my,

39:23

is playing instead of me. I wasn't angry

39:25

that,

39:28

I wasn't annoyed or like frustrated

39:31

that Mitch came in. I was happy for Mitch, I get on really well

39:33

with Mitch, he's a great lad and I was

39:35

pleased to see him do well because I

39:38

wanted to see the team succeed and with him starting

39:40

at 9 you want to see him go well

39:42

and do well for the team. I think for me now

39:45

it's given me a great challenge to come back and push

39:47

and try and compete back

39:50

for that 9 shirt and that

39:54

sort of big picture and I've

39:56

been really trying to have a big

39:58

picture in my mind and trying to... as

40:00

hard as I can to get back. My target is

40:02

to try and get back and play for the Six Nations

40:05

and try and

40:06

get a few games under my belt before

40:08

the Six Nations to prove myself

40:10

to get back in that squad.

40:12

That's my long term

40:14

goal and that's always in the back of my mind but

40:16

I've just got to be ticking it off week on week or

40:19

like day by day here. The small

40:21

little wins I can take and keep positive

40:23

that way because

40:25

I think that was the hard bit at the start. I was thinking

40:28

so long ahead when

40:30

I just sat at home, not doing anything, you're looking

40:32

so far ahead that then you almost get lost

40:34

in it and then you start to feel down

40:37

and bad about it. You just take

40:39

it day by day and week by week, you're ticking

40:41

off all the good things and you're staying a lot more positive. Has

40:44

that been the sort of messaging that's come from the England

40:47

coaches and not just Dan McKellar here as well?

40:49

Has that been what they've been saying

40:51

to you with the couple of questions?

40:53

Yes, so after the injury, Steve

40:57

was really good. He really

40:59

felt for me and then he was

41:01

really good at setting me targets

41:04

and things early doors about where

41:06

he wants me to

41:09

see if I can target getting back for the

41:12

Six Nations in those areas and competing

41:16

around them and that playing around them. He's

41:20

sort of challenged and

41:22

just been really supportive ever since. Even

41:26

though he's had so much on his plate with the World Cup and

41:28

things he's been

41:29

constantly messaging me and keeping in

41:31

touch and so have all the Indian coaches which

41:34

has been brilliant and Dan's been awesome

41:38

here as well. I think he

41:40

understood that at the start

41:42

I said I just wanted to crack

41:45

on with my own stuff just to begin with and

41:47

get comfortable with the injury and pushing forward

41:49

in that. When I'm ready I'm

41:51

happy to help out with the team stuff and

41:54

help the team in reviewing games

41:56

and pushing forward and he

41:58

was brilliant at accommodating that.

41:59

and they've

42:02

all been fantastic here, the whole rehab

42:04

and essence here have been brilliant and the coaching stuff

42:06

have been a big plus to help me out and

42:09

been really good at accommodating me with being around the boys

42:11

still and keeping positive. And

42:14

given your position in camp

42:17

before the tournament started, you've

42:19

touched on it already how heartbreaking that semi-final

42:21

loss was to South Africa. How would you rate,

42:23

not necessarily a score out of 10, but

42:26

how would you rate England's tournament

42:29

as a whole? Do you think that they exceeded expectations

42:32

or do you think the bronze medal was about

42:34

right in terms of obviously Steve

42:36

only had the reins for less than

42:38

a year and to get them to the bronze medal is

42:40

a pretty decent achievement really. And

42:43

obviously you had the Nadir of that loss to Fiji

42:45

beforehand, how do you rate it?

42:48

That is a hard question. I

42:52

think what

42:55

showed in

42:57

the South

42:59

Africa game especially is the quality

43:02

within that squad and

43:07

no matter whether it's, and Steve touched on

43:09

it at the end of the game, the amount

43:11

of boys we had under the age of 25 I

43:14

think it was compared to South Africa and

43:16

things and in the squad compared to them.

43:18

And I think the potential and the

43:21

capability of that squad that was shown in that game

43:24

and

43:25

I think through

43:28

the whole of summer we had such a belief in

43:30

a belief that even though, and I

43:33

was only there for the first two one-week games, and even then

43:36

they weren't what we wanted them to be

43:39

and as good as we wanted them to be. But there was always that

43:41

belief, we were all pulling in the

43:43

right direction and we were pushing

43:45

and getting better

43:47

and I think the

43:50

performances and the sort

43:52

of team ethos that Steve's building

43:54

at the club, sorry

43:57

not the club, at England has been.

43:59

is brilliant and I think it's only building. I

44:02

think I

44:03

sort of

44:06

see small comparisons with how

44:08

Steve when he first came in at Leicester, I

44:10

think people

44:13

can say and I don't know, and in football they talk about

44:15

the dead cat bounce, like when a new manager

44:17

comes in you can fly off the mark and

44:20

I obviously don't know football but

44:22

from my experiences so far in rugby

44:24

it takes time for a coach to

44:26

come in and implement

44:28

how they want to play and I think

44:30

it's

44:32

harder to do it at international level

44:34

than it is at club

44:36

level in some ways. And

44:38

I think Steve,

44:40

when he first came to Leicester he built the foundation

44:42

so brilliantly in

44:44

our first season here

44:46

and then

44:49

he came back to the second season

44:52

and that's when we really took off and really through

44:55

because we had the foundations built so brilliantly

44:57

in the first year and then

44:59

we just added the layers and the bits to

45:02

it that we were able to do

45:04

so well that next year and win the Premier. I

45:06

think that's something Steve's been doing brilliantly,

45:09

England is building those foundations and things

45:11

and obviously they'd have wanted to

45:14

go and win the World Cup and do that and disappointed

45:18

that we couldn't do that because

45:22

we had the sort of chances to do it but

45:24

I think the way that we're

45:26

building the foundations and the way

45:28

that Steve and the coaches

45:30

stuff are pushing that forward

45:32

and then to be able to and

45:35

keep adding on the layers to it I think

45:38

that yeah it's in we're in

45:40

a good spot and I think that okay

45:42

third place was decent probably

45:45

slightly disappointing in the end with

45:47

the

45:48

opportunity we got ourselves to in

45:50

the semi-final I

45:52

think that

45:54

we go I think England is and it's

45:57

going in the right direction I think it's exciting

45:59

and

45:59

What should we expect, therefore, with what you've just

46:02

touched on with regard to Steve's

46:04

time here at Leicester? What should we expect

46:06

now from a Steve Borthwick

46:08

four-year World Cup cycle? He's got the reins

46:11

now. Obviously, he had a – it was almost

46:13

a sort of quite short-termism

46:15

for this World Cup because he only had a year to sort it out.

46:18

He did not have the sort of the

46:20

time and opportunity that other nations had had.

46:23

So what now should we expect? Obviously, you don't

46:25

know. So what would your

46:27

expectations be of a four-year World

46:29

Cup cycle? Well, I've never

46:33

been in a World Cup cycle and

46:36

don't know how – sort of quite

46:38

how that works. I was in

46:40

the – it was probably

46:42

around a year and a half before, nearly

46:46

two years before this World Cup. So

46:49

no, probably a year and a half. Yeah. So anyway,

46:51

three year and a half. So I don't know quite how the cycles

46:54

go. So all I'd say is for

46:57

my experience in Leicester

46:59

and things like that, the hardest thing to develop

47:02

and get cohesion on is the

47:04

attack. It's

47:06

always the hardest thing to evolve in

47:08

a team and it takes the longest. And

47:11

I think that

47:12

we got our basics built brilliantly with the defence,

47:15

kicking games, set-piece and stuff.

47:19

And there was so much –

47:21

well, there was really good signs of attack

47:25

at

47:26

points in the World Cup

47:29

that I think that that's probably the

47:31

biggest

47:32

area that we'll

47:34

see growth. And

47:37

I know with Wiggy

47:38

leading it, he's a brilliant attack coach

47:40

and he's already made some great –

47:43

and he's already done some brilliant things so far at building

47:45

that attack and taking that forward. So I

47:48

think that that's probably where we'll

47:50

see the most growth and things

47:52

like that on top of the different foundations

47:55

to the basics. But

47:58

yeah, attack's always the hardest thing to – to

48:00

build and

48:02

to grow the time. And I think that's probably

48:05

the area where we've got such an exciting

48:07

amount of growth

48:08

in us. Well, that leads nicely onto my next

48:10

question, actually. Obviously,

48:13

we saw a quite short-term,

48:15

pragmatic, almost conservative game

48:17

plan from England in this World Cup for obvious reasons,

48:19

and that they hadn't had the time to

48:21

instill that attacking game plan. And it, to

48:23

be honest, it almost worked. They got to

48:26

the point of the eventual world champions,

48:28

and they were excellent in that semi-final. But

48:30

do you think we will now see perhaps a little bit

48:32

more ambition maybe,

48:35

or enterprising rugby from England? Or

48:37

do you think it was still, because Steve

48:40

here in his second season, Leicester attacked

48:42

brilliantly here in his second season, while

48:44

still kicking the ball quite a lot, and do you think that's

48:46

the balance that England are going to look towards?

48:50

Well, first of all, I don't think that England

48:52

probably,

48:54

they've played,

48:56

I don't know, I can't quite remember how you described

48:58

it now, but I think that Steve is

49:00

brilliant at creating game plans

49:03

for the team, for the opposition he's playing. And

49:07

you'll see that week and week, and I think that

49:09

the

49:10

game plan,

49:13

and we might not get it right, and they sometimes change

49:15

within games, but Steve sets out so brilliantly

49:17

with the plan on how

49:21

to beat an opposition and the evidence behind

49:24

it. So

49:27

I think it was perfect for the South Africa game,

49:30

and we exposed

49:32

so much of, and created so much opportunity

49:35

for ourselves, and I just think that,

49:38

I don't think we'll have, you can't

49:41

in Test matches go away from the foundations

49:43

and the bases of the game, because, I mean,

49:45

France, everyone

49:46

talks

49:47

about them playing an

49:50

incredibly expansive game and stuff, but they play, they

49:52

kick

49:53

just as much as anyone in World Road beat, they kick, and

49:55

it's all about having that balance, and it's

49:57

about when you kick in, and how you kick it. at

50:00

those times. I think what

50:02

we will see, I think what would

50:05

be really exciting is that,

50:10

and what we'll probably see changing

50:13

is that

50:15

when we're creating these opportunities through our

50:17

foundations that we'll then

50:20

take those chances and I

50:22

think that's probably the

50:24

area that

50:26

we'll see that they're

50:28

sort of, or they have the exciting part

50:31

of the thing. It won't be like,

50:33

it's not

50:34

going to turn around and play and be crazy

50:36

and be like being stupid

50:38

with the ball and things. You're always going to be smart with it and,

50:41

but it's going to be able to, maybe

50:44

it is bravery, maybe I don't know

50:47

what it is because I'm obviously not

50:49

being in camp for a while, but

50:51

hopefully, and where

50:53

I see it is that we'll

50:57

take the opportunities because the opportunities

50:59

we had in that South Africa game

51:02

to score points were there, we just couldn't quite

51:04

take them. So

51:07

I think that's probably the area of growth that

51:09

we'll make the most of those opportunities through our attacking

51:11

game. I'm going to put you on the spot now and probably make

51:14

you squirm a little bit, but who impressed you, who impressed you

51:16

the most, players-wise for England? Who

51:18

do you think were sort of contenders for the player of the tournament?

51:22

I thought Ben-El had a brilliant tournament.

51:25

The way he moved round the, well

51:28

moved between seven and eight, but

51:30

the job he did in

51:32

every game, the way he fought, the way he

51:35

sort of

51:36

was everywhere to be honest

51:40

and how he was physically and

51:42

then I just thought, yeah, he'd

51:44

be amazing and I was brilliant and he'd

51:47

probably be my

51:48

very little one. Two of the Premiership's

51:51

three World Cup winners, Yasvivisa

51:53

and Andrei Ballad of South Africa are coming back here.

51:55

How much of a boost is that in

51:57

terms of what they're now going to be bringing?

52:00

in terms of the big match experience which they already had

52:02

anyway of course but in terms of what they've

52:04

achieved over the past month and also are you expecting

52:06

a little bit of smugness from them

52:08

around the place? No, I don't think so. They're

52:11

terrific blokes.

52:13

They're great people and I

52:16

think that they'll

52:18

come back and I think once

52:20

they were in the final and playing against New Zealand,

52:22

all the boys at Tigers wanted

52:25

to see Andre and Jasper go win the World

52:27

Cup and bring a World

52:30

Cup medal back to Leicester

52:33

and we're extremely happy for them and

52:36

proud of what they've done. I think they've

52:38

both had brilliant tournaments and Andre

52:40

the way he's come back from his injury and stepped in

52:43

so seamlessly it's been unreal.

52:46

Yeah, well we're really excited to have him back and

52:49

I think they'll add so much in terms of Jasper,

52:52

what he brings and the

52:54

quality he has with his carrying and his physicality

52:57

and Andre with his

52:59

control and his experience could be and

53:02

will be brilliant for us and helping

53:04

us push forward.

53:06

Thank you for Andre. Thank you very much. Well

53:11

mere hours after the police had lifted

53:13

the World Cup trophy we had news

53:16

of a resignation filtering through from Australia

53:18

which is that Eddie Jones has stepped

53:20

down as the Wallaby Tech coach. It's been

53:24

a pretty disastrous World Cup campaign,

53:26

wins over Georgia, wins over Portugal,

53:29

losses to Fiji and Wales and not without the group stages.

53:32

He was brought back

53:35

with a vision for a big kind of five-year

53:37

plan given that Australia hosted the British and Irish

53:39

lines in 2025 which yeah

53:42

right now looks like it's going to be a colossal mismatch

53:45

and then because Australia hosted the World Cup

53:47

in 2027 as well so the brief

53:49

was to

53:51

get the Wallabies ready for 2027 for

53:53

this next cycle. It hasn't went

53:56

up. Eddie's gone, he went out with

53:58

a fantastic quote to the Sydney. morning herald on

54:00

Sunday. Sometimes

54:03

you have to eat something for

54:05

others to eat caviar further down the track which

54:07

I thought was quite large

54:10

his way of trying to make the most out of a desperate

54:13

situation. I mean Charles

54:16

what happens now with Australian rugby? Are

54:19

they in a better shape without him? Could

54:22

you see what he was trying to achieve by taking

54:25

a young side to the World Cup even if he

54:27

maybe overdid the selection

54:30

slightly?

54:31

Yeah I actually can and you know what

54:33

when he selected that squad it

54:36

obviously jarred and it was strange

54:38

it felt strange but then his

54:40

justification for it was that

54:42

he's building a

54:46

squad for the Lions tour and for

54:48

the World Cup in 2027. So

54:50

if you took him at face value then then the squad

54:52

makes sense. Now it just

54:54

all seems to have been built on a sort of bed

54:57

of lies because he's

54:59

gone in disgrace

55:02

really you have to say because of all

55:04

the stuff that's been reported

55:08

in the press about the Japan interviews.

55:10

So you know as he was

55:13

taken at his face value he's completely hoodwinked

55:16

rugby Australia really. He claims

55:18

he's been hoodwinked by them so there's

55:20

a lot of hoodwinking going on and how

55:23

really Hamish McLennan the

55:26

rugby Australia chief executive can still

55:29

in good faith say that he is going

55:31

to continue in his role after

55:33

sacking Dave Rennie last autumn and let's not

55:35

forget last autumn without

55:38

three of their best players Dave Rennie's Australia

55:41

came within a point of France

55:44

came within a point of Ireland all away from home

55:46

beat Wales and beat Scotland. That's

55:49

not a bad autumn without your three best players

55:52

then then Dave Rennie was sacked and

55:55

all of his assistants were sacked one of whom was Dan McKellar

55:57

now the Leicester head coach And

56:02

and Eddie was brought in as the savior and

56:06

Well less than a year on he's gone

56:08

and So I think

56:10

rugby Australia. Oh Dave ready a massive apology.

56:12

I'm not sure he'll get it. I think You

56:16

know Hamish MacLennan the chief

56:18

executive really needs to be Sort

56:20

of debating whether he's the right man to

56:23

take Australian rugby forward and whether his position

56:25

is now untenable because he's the guy

56:27

Who sat Renny? He's the guy who hired Eddie

56:29

and Ultimately the

56:31

book stops with him Being

56:34

Dave Rennie's now cashed in in Japan with

56:36

Kobe's feelers. I feel feel

56:38

like he's actually ended up quite well getting

56:41

out of his mess And

56:43

Michaela's off back to Australia seen his knee from Leicester

56:46

Charles as far as we understand it

56:49

Dan Michaela is going nowhere. There have obviously

56:51

been reports in the Australian press

56:54

Suggesting otherwise, but our

56:56

intel is that he'll be going nowhere

57:00

It's been this is a really Nausea

57:03

comment. It's been a world cup full

57:06

of fascinating

57:09

Press conferences from losing teams.

57:11

I think about Johnny Saxon barely

57:13

keeping it together after the court the New Zealand

57:15

court final Charlie's talking about Sam Kane DePont

57:19

lashing out of the world after Francis

57:21

exit and and also just the

57:23

excruciating press conference, which was after

57:26

Wales Australia where Eddie

57:29

was having to kind of answer questions

57:31

about why he started me absolutely thrashed by Wales,

57:33

but also try and explain

57:37

Or like back down this this very concrete

57:39

story, which we've heard from lots of sources

57:41

that he's spoken with Japan about Becoming

57:44

the Japan head coach. I mean it's

57:47

been a bit of an extraordinary mess to be

57:49

honest There's clearly talent there

57:52

players were Angus Bale and mark. No accounting

57:54

to our city and others, but there's

57:57

there is There is something

57:59

there potentially to build on but I'm

58:01

fascinated to see who takes

58:04

it forward. Kippy Stephen Larkin who's

58:06

at the Brumbies could actually be

58:09

and I would love to actually see it be Andy Friend

58:11

who's currently unattached. I had

58:14

a lovely six year stint at Connell where he's

58:20

absolutely revered, he's coming back from Australia

58:22

and that would be very interesting but

58:24

yeah I mean for the Australians.

58:28

Trying to build optimism around the game

58:30

when you're up against stiff

58:33

competition domestically from other sports with

58:36

huge landmark events coming up with the Lions

58:38

and the Rugby World Cup then

58:41

the house needs to be put in order pretty sharpish

58:43

and hopefully that's going to be the case. I wanted

58:45

to touch on the Rugby World Cup awards late

58:49

on Sunday night. Charlie did you go? Were you

58:51

there?

58:52

No I didn't, he needed a tux and

58:55

I didn't know having tux, I barely had jeans.

58:58

What just no chalice? Yeah

59:01

that was no, I should have berated. It's

59:07

a bit of a shame, I think we were chatting

59:09

about in terms of award winners,

59:12

I see they named play of the year, I think

59:14

we're fine with,

59:17

I say that tentatively waiting for one of you to know.

59:21

In fact, in fact, controversially I thought

59:23

you should have got man of the match in the final.

59:27

Well listen, if Jordy Barrett's long

59:29

range penalty sneaks inside the left

59:31

post and doesn't go wide then I didn't

59:34

mind it. Andy Farrell, coach of the year was interesting.

59:43

Yeah that winning run but then

59:45

who else? I was debating who else, I mean it would

59:48

have had to have been either, well it

59:50

would have to have been Jack Nianaba and I'm guessing they

59:52

decided the award winners before the night

59:54

of the final, if that team's anything

59:56

to go by which we're obviously going to get onto then I'm guessing

59:59

they're just going to be the same. decided it

1:00:01

before the night of the final. And who else

1:00:03

would there have been other than other than

1:00:05

Andy? Well, I wouldn't

1:00:07

I wouldn't have minded something really getting

1:00:10

it for Fiji. And I definitely think

1:00:12

Patrice Latussek should have been nominated. And

1:00:14

Paul, and you should

1:00:16

have got it and actually probably

1:00:19

should have got it. Given what Portugal achieved,

1:00:22

given the first World Cup win, should

1:00:25

have really had to against Georgia as

1:00:27

well, just to miss kick away from two. I

1:00:29

think certainly he should be nominated and actually

1:00:32

would have been quite a refreshing choice if he

1:00:34

wanted. So that's my that's

1:00:36

my fault.

1:00:38

Can I offer again a slightly controversial

1:00:41

counterpoint that Fiji might

1:00:43

have been, if you look back on Fiji's tournament,

1:00:46

a bit of a

1:00:47

disappointment? No, I was going to

1:00:49

say, I think a nomination, a nomination for Raului

1:00:52

was was deserved, I think, for

1:00:54

what they achieved. I don't necessarily

1:00:57

know if he would have won

1:00:59

it. It's such a shame he stepped down because I kind of want

1:01:01

to see where Fiji were going to go with

1:01:04

him in control. Charlie, any

1:01:06

quibbles from you about coach?

1:01:09

No, I am. Yeah,

1:01:12

so difficult because they they clearly had had

1:01:15

sorted all of those out before the

1:01:17

final. Nienaaba, I

1:01:19

think. Yeah,

1:01:22

a toss of a coin for me. I think I think it's it's we'll

1:01:25

get a reminder of it very quickly during the Six Nations.

1:01:27

I think Islander Islander brought the game on really

1:01:30

and yeah, we have to remember

1:01:33

that they were a width of Jordy Barrett's shins

1:01:35

away from winning that

1:01:37

game and looking really

1:01:39

strong, sort of going towards a semi-final

1:01:42

against Argentina. So

1:01:43

just just

1:01:46

what they were doing as well, just how multifaceted

1:01:48

their game was, super

1:01:51

impressive. And he's done some special things, Andy

1:01:53

Farrell or Lowe. I mean, it's not even controversial

1:01:55

to bring it up. Andy Farrell's record at World

1:01:57

Cups now either is an assistant or.

1:02:00

Headman is great, 2015 with

1:02:03

England, 2019 with Ireland, and 2023 with Ireland, two quarter

1:02:07

final losses in a group stage exit.

1:02:10

So yeah, he'll be fired up for the next cycle where every

1:02:12

year, I think he's contracted till 2025 with

1:02:16

Ireland, isn't he? So

1:02:18

he'll be pretty motivated

1:02:21

for the next cycle. Let's never

1:02:23

talk about cycles again, because...

1:02:26

Well, come to mad. Well,

1:02:29

come to mad. Andy Vower did have my favourite

1:02:31

quote of the tournament, which was that

1:02:34

sport can be cruel sometimes. That's why

1:02:36

we love it, which I thought was quite a poignant

1:02:38

thing to say in the aftermath of that quarter final defeat. Actually,

1:02:41

no, sorry, joint favourite quote. The

1:02:43

other one being George Turner talking about how he was trying to...

1:02:45

the Scotland hooker chatting about how he was trying to

1:02:47

cut into a baguette, and then he realised it was his hand.

1:02:50

And he said, I thought that... And he said, I

1:02:52

thought the bread was a bit tough. And

1:02:55

then he needed five stitches after he

1:02:57

went through it. Let's

1:03:01

go on to some of your questions now, just to wrap up this

1:03:04

episode, the final World Cup episode.

1:03:06

It's all coming to an end.

1:03:11

Okay, then your final questions. Thank you so

1:03:13

much for all of your contributions and

1:03:15

comments and tweets. Can we still

1:03:18

call them tweets? I think so. Throughout

1:03:20

the throughout the Rebel World Cup,

1:03:22

they've been hugely appreciated. And yeah,

1:03:25

been great hearing from you and keeping in

1:03:27

touch with you all to see what's happened. We've

1:03:29

got a couple this week. First, with Stephen Wall,

1:03:32

who asked, would you back a law change that says

1:03:34

a ball can be marked anywhere on the pitch with

1:03:37

a free kit resulting from where the ball was kicked? So

1:03:39

box kicks, crushing bombs, long-risk kick tennis

1:03:42

needs to be disincentivised. Charles,

1:03:45

you're the part-time

1:03:47

referee. Talk to me. Would you be up for

1:03:49

marks while in the

1:03:52

field?

1:03:53

I understand the logic behind

1:03:55

it and the rationale behind it to disincentivise

1:03:58

the kick tennis. Yeah, that makes sense. but then

1:04:00

we're just getting a game that's more

1:04:02

stop-start, aren't we? I don't know if that's something

1:04:06

that we want. Do we want more free kicks?

1:04:08

Do we want more stoppages? I'm

1:04:10

not sure. Admittedly, you get

1:04:12

a lot of kicks that are contestable and they're not caught

1:04:15

cleanly, so how much of an

1:04:17

issue this would be, I'm not sure. Certainly

1:04:19

on the same theme, Stephen,

1:04:22

I would say that maybe scrum infringements

1:04:25

should be a free kick. That

1:04:29

might speed things up, it might mean that

1:04:32

teams stay more legal at scrum time

1:04:34

because they're not scrimmaging. We've heard

1:04:36

South Africa say explicitly that they scrummed

1:04:38

the penalties, but then if it

1:04:41

was just a free kick, they wouldn't be able to kick to touch

1:04:43

and they wouldn't be able to kick the goal. You

1:04:45

might see more quick taps from the base, a

1:04:47

bit of a small sped up game, and also

1:04:50

it would eliminate one of the most

1:04:52

unjust elements of rugby union, which is basically

1:04:55

at scrum time if you are inferior to the opposition,

1:04:57

you get penalised, which

1:04:59

is not necessarily what penalties

1:05:02

are for.

1:05:04

But what about Oxman Che?

1:05:05

Oxman Che king of London? He

1:05:07

can still be excellent, and he's excellent in other ways, and he can

1:05:09

still scrumage his heart out and he still will, but

1:05:12

he'll just get free kicks rather than penalties. South

1:05:16

Africa would choose another scrum.

1:05:18

Just scrum, it's just 80 minutes of a scrum

1:05:21

cycle. Free kick scrum cycles, free kick scrum. That

1:05:24

sounds terrifying. I don't

1:05:27

know if I want to live in that world. But

1:05:30

it's an interesting point. I've got

1:05:32

another question from Darren. Charlie, you get

1:05:34

on to this one. Rumours

1:05:37

that Kevin Sinford might be leaving the England coaching

1:05:39

set up. Should Steve Baughton be looking

1:05:41

for a more experienced coach for

1:05:44

their attack? I mean, how is this housing

1:05:48

and coaching set up going to look? But firstly,

1:05:50

how is it going to look with

1:05:53

Felix Jones coming in in terms of roles? And

1:05:56

if Kevin Sinford went, the

1:05:59

defence, you know... it did improve throughout

1:06:01

the year, kind of like we were all as promised it would, but

1:06:03

then how would that

1:06:05

play out? That would be more disruption at the time

1:06:08

when England would guess the China settle.

1:06:10

As we understand, Ken, no

1:06:14

decision has been made on the field yet,

1:06:16

I believe. We, Felix

1:06:19

Jones coming in, as

1:06:23

I said, I think that's exciting for

1:06:25

one, given what he's achieved

1:06:28

with South Africa and how South Africa could push

1:06:30

the envelope a little bit, maybe not during the World

1:06:32

Cup in the bigger games, but over the course

1:06:34

of the last 18 months or so. At

1:06:37

Leicester, I think we can look, funnily

1:06:39

enough, we can look at Leicester as a template to how this

1:06:42

worked, given that all of them were there, all of them were there

1:06:44

pretty much. And it was sort of

1:06:46

a, felt like a structure whereby

1:06:48

nobody had a

1:06:51

real responsibility for, or

1:06:53

an overwhelming responsibility for any one area.

1:06:56

I think they had their separate areas maybe,

1:06:58

they fed into each other. And

1:07:00

Steve Borthuk's been on record as talking

1:07:03

about how the game sort of is so

1:07:06

fluid and different areas sort of

1:07:09

influence one another and interchangeable. So

1:07:11

I think, and that's the noises that

1:07:14

Felix Jones has been sort of making himself,

1:07:17

not just in the mix zone after the final

1:07:19

bit, when he's done press previously, is that that's

1:07:21

what he anticipates. A

1:07:25

more experienced coach for the attack, I think that's a

1:07:27

good idea too. That

1:07:30

would mean stability

1:07:32

in that area. And they haven't really since Scott

1:07:34

Wiseman at the last World Cup, but

1:07:37

the last, again, cycle, cycle,

1:07:39

cycle, so apologies, but over

1:07:41

the between 2020 and 2023, England

1:07:46

just had no, felt like they

1:07:48

had no real direction there. They had Simon

1:07:50

Amor in and out. They had

1:07:52

Martin Gleason in and out. And

1:07:56

that didn't really seem like, it felt

1:07:58

like progress was being built. certainly under

1:08:00

Gleason it felt like there was a definitive way

1:08:02

they were trying to play and that

1:08:05

was with Farrell, sorry, and Smith

1:08:07

as 10 and 12. But

1:08:09

then that went and they've had to sort

1:08:11

of revamp it

1:08:13

again. So yeah, I think that's a

1:08:15

good idea from Dan.

1:08:17

I'm as guilty as anyone of this, but we sort

1:08:20

of forget how coupled together it was at the

1:08:22

start of the year. And now that there's actually

1:08:24

time to kind of

1:08:27

fine-tune coaching staff and work out

1:08:29

a long-term vision in the next cycle,

1:08:32

sorry Charlie, it'll be interesting

1:08:34

to see how that

1:08:36

all plays out. Right, that's it for today.

1:08:38

It's it for the World Cup. Thank you Charlie,

1:08:41

thank you Charles, and a big thank you to Jack Van

1:08:43

Portly as well for speaking to us this week. And

1:08:46

thank you for downloading the podcast and also everybody who's been

1:08:48

watching us on YouTube as well over the last couple of

1:08:50

months. We really appreciate all of your support.

1:08:54

We're now taking a break from the podcast. It's going to be

1:08:56

back in the year back to the Six Nations,

1:08:58

but you'll still be able to keep up with what we're doing on the Telegraph

1:09:00

website. There's loads of coverage that can back the

1:09:02

World Cup. And the heads of the Gallagher Premiership,

1:09:05

which is, you know, we're all going to be getting

1:09:07

back into this week as well. Thanks

1:09:09

again to all of you who've listened to us, but for all three of

1:09:12

us. Goodbye for now.