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burrow.com/Acast. Apparently,

1:33

you know, the thinking Muslim audience

1:35

are dubious people who I shouldn't

1:38

associate with. So this is very

1:40

compelling, and there's a lot of other witnesses coming forward

1:42

on this. The American government

1:44

has just lied about that for the last many years. The

1:47

only reason that didn't happen was I met a guy in Ghazni

1:49

called Mohammed. Since

1:54

we last spoke, you've been to

1:56

Afghanistan and you've pieced together some

1:58

of the missing parts. in this case? It's

2:01

a real challenge to get justice

2:03

in America. What is it about

2:06

A Clive

3:28

has just returned from a fact finding

3:31

mission to Afghanistan and he has some

3:33

considerable updates on alpha s case. Clive

3:35

has helped secure the release of 86

3:38

prisoners from Guantanamo Bay and still acts

3:41

for the remaining numbers. Since

3:43

the early days of the war on terror

3:45

he has worked tirelessly to force the Americans

3:47

and other Western powers to adhere to the

3:49

rule of law. He has

3:52

sought to uncover the secret prisons

3:54

and ghost prisoners that stained the

3:56

reputation of powerful states who present

3:58

their wars in Benigna. Inevolent terms.

4:01

Clive Stafford Smith, welcome back to The Thinking Muslim. It's

4:03

great to have you here with us. Well, it's a

4:06

great pleasure to be here. And I must say your

4:08

last program was very good. And

4:10

I've got so many nice messages from

4:12

so many nice people. So thank you.

4:14

On our last program, you requested a

4:17

letter writing project,

4:19

I suppose, for our viewers, where

4:21

you requested that they write in

4:23

letters that you would take because

4:26

of legal powers you'd be able

4:28

to take to AFI. I mean, how successful

4:30

was that? Did that work? Well,

4:32

it was fabulous. Actually, I got a lot in.

4:35

What I do is people send me emails and

4:37

I just cut and paste them into a letter

4:39

from me. And

4:41

I sent her one letter, which was about

4:43

60 pages, so probably 200 people's letters. And

4:48

I got that into her. And she really

4:50

was thrilled. There's people say such awful things

4:52

to her. And there she

4:54

was with this massive letter from me and she

4:56

just got to read them back. And

4:58

I have another 72 pages now. But

5:01

please don't let that slow you down. I'll

5:04

give you my better and newer

5:06

email this time if you don't mind

5:09

broadcasting it. And the

5:11

more people send me, the better. I'll

5:13

put that email in the show notes and we'll make

5:15

sure we send a request out to our viewers to

5:17

send that. How about the

5:19

last time we spoke also, you were

5:21

raising funds for the legal

5:23

cover for her case. I mean, how's

5:25

that going? Are you? Have we? People

5:29

were very generous to support the

5:31

costs of the case. It

5:34

has had a certain repercussion

5:36

on my nonprofit that

5:38

I've now been blacklisted. Apparently,

5:42

the thinking Muslim audience

5:44

are dubious people who

5:47

I shouldn't associate with. I'm proud to associate

5:49

with you and I'm

5:51

going to litigate my

5:53

blacklisting in due course. It's just a pain in

5:56

the neck. It's just one of these stupid things.

5:58

They've been doing it for years. And

6:00

it's no joy, but we'll get around

6:02

it. Fantastic. Now, Clive, many of my

6:04

viewers may not have seen, may not

6:06

have watched the original show, where you

6:08

went into great detail about A What

6:27

sets Aaaf here aside from all the

6:29

other people I've represented over the last

6:32

20 plus years, is

6:36

that on March 30, 2003,

6:39

she was abducted in Karachi with

6:41

her three children. So she

6:43

had six-month-old Suleiman, three-year-old

6:46

Mariam, and six-year-old Ahmed.

6:50

And they were all seized as they were

6:52

driving to the airport, and she was just

6:54

going to Islamabad from Karachi. And

6:58

it appears that when they were seizing

7:00

the four of them, they dropped the

7:02

baby on its head, and that may

7:04

have killed the baby. And I always

7:06

thought that must be the truth until

7:08

I learned what happened to the others.

7:10

So Mariam was taken from

7:13

Karachi to Kabul, where

7:16

she was forcibly adopted into a white

7:19

American Christian family, on

7:21

the bizarre presumption

7:23

that being a white Christian American

7:25

was somehow superior to being a

7:29

Pakistani Muslim of color.

7:32

Just crazy, crazy. But at least, you know, there

7:34

are those mad people who have that belief. And

7:37

it has happened in another case since then. But

7:41

with Ahmed, the thing I just can't understand

7:44

on any level is both Mariam

7:46

and Ahmed were American citizens, and

7:48

Ahmed was taken to Kabul where,

7:51

age six, he was put in a prison.

7:54

Now, I just can't fathom that. There's

7:57

not even a sort of crazy rationale that

7:59

the world's with. Mariam and

8:01

I've met with people in Kabul to

8:03

prove that and that's coming along It's

8:05

difficult to prove what was going on

8:08

in these secretive places, but I've got

8:10

a lot of good help on that

8:12

then I off here was taken to Afghanistan

8:16

herself where she was tortured for five

8:19

years taken by by the US So

8:22

the US had paid a bounty for our fear

8:25

$55,000. Yes, which was happening to

8:28

a lot of people at the time But

8:30

not to any other women

8:32

in a high-profile case The

8:35

US government has denied all

8:37

along that she was in the US

8:40

custody. That is miserable But

8:42

but we have to prove it sometimes we have to

8:44

prove the Sun Rises every

8:46

morning. Yeah In

8:48

this case, I have managed to prove it.

8:51

It's been great in Afghanistan I

8:53

met a guy called Salim Kuche who

8:55

was just a lovely guy He

8:57

means nomad his name and

8:59

he was clearly someone who disobeyed all

9:02

the American rules when he was in

9:04

custody himself in background Yeah, he was

9:06

up in isolation in the cells on

9:08

the second floor And

9:11

she was up here was in the cell

9:13

next door and he got to be able

9:15

to communicate to her Yeah So he was

9:17

the one who first heard about this and

9:20

then while I was sitting talking

9:22

to Salim in the intercontinental hotel

9:24

in In

9:27

Kabul, I don't want you to think it's

9:29

terribly grand is not it was grand in

9:31

1960, but not since then But

9:34

I like the people there and I was sitting

9:36

there and the governor of Panchia

9:38

comes by and really nice guy speaks Good

9:41

English and came to say hello He

9:44

then turns to Salim and says I haven't

9:46

seen you since background and

9:48

it turns out that Salim

9:50

came downstairs to the cage. They were being

9:52

held in and told the governor about Afia

9:56

being upstairs the governor and

9:58

others then told his forego who

10:00

escaped from Bagram who then recorded the

10:02

video about it back in 2005. So

10:06

this is very compelling and there's a

10:08

lot of other witnesses coming forward on

10:10

this. How did I know it

10:12

was Ather in Vassal? Well, but she said so.

10:16

She only spoke English and Urdu, but they

10:19

could communicate. And

10:22

so that's very important because the

10:24

American government has just lied about that for

10:26

the last many years. And they've

10:28

lied to everyone. They haven't just lied to, you know,

10:31

the Pakistani people. They've lied to

10:33

their own prosecutors in their trial.

10:36

They lied to the judge. They lied to the jury.

10:39

So that's very important. Then

10:41

the other thing is, so she's then

10:43

let out of Bagram. When they finally

10:45

discovered that she's really not a nuclear

10:48

bomb maker, they

10:50

let her out. But what we've

10:52

discovered is this. By then,

10:54

her sister, Fauzia, who is

10:56

a fabulous woman who

10:59

has a, you know, she's

11:01

a neurologist. She's incredibly well educated. If

11:03

I ever get in trouble, I want

11:05

Fauzia to be my sister because she's

11:08

been great. She

11:10

had stirred up so much publicity for Ather

11:12

and the kids by 2008 that this was

11:14

a huge embarrassment.

11:17

Yeah. Mainly to the

11:19

Pakistan government. The Americans honestly wouldn't care. Yeah.

11:22

They went to the Pakistan because they... They

11:24

were the ones who sold her. So it

11:26

was President Musharraf's people who sold her and

11:28

he was still in power at the time.

11:33

So it seems clear. I'm not in

11:35

the name names on your program, but

11:38

I think I've now able to prove that

11:41

there was conspiracy to

11:44

make sure that Ather and Ahmed

11:46

were killed. And the

11:48

way it was planned was this. She was put

11:50

on a bus from Kabul to Ghazni. She was

11:52

told she could have her daughter, Maryam, back if

11:54

she went to Ghazni and sat outside this mosque.

11:57

She was given this boy who... She'd

12:00

been tortured for five years. She wasn't sure if

12:02

it was Ahmed or not It

12:05

was Ahmed but Ahmed had been threatened

12:07

for five years that if he ever

12:09

said he was Ahmed Siddiqui

12:13

They would kill him. So Even

12:15

he wouldn't tell his mom that it was

12:17

him But they're on a

12:19

bus together going to Gasny to get the

12:21

daughter in theory, but that's not what's gonna

12:24

happen Right. This is all designed for her

12:26

to be killed as a suicide bomber They've

12:29

dressed the child up in a jacket

12:31

with four big pockets with big bits

12:33

of fruit in it Yeah, it's July

12:35

the 17th 2008

12:38

it's the middle of summer. He doesn't need a

12:41

jacket Yeah, but the jacket is obviously designed to

12:43

look like some sort of our suicide jacket. She's

12:46

in a full shadoor So you can't see

12:48

what's on underneath. Yeah someone

12:50

has called in a Call

12:53

to say that this suicide bomb is

12:55

sitting outside the mosque and then

12:57

all the cops show up with their AK-47s And

13:00

they're just gonna shoot her. The only

13:02

reason that didn't happen was I met

13:04

a guy in Gasny Called

13:07

Muhammad. Ajmal Muhammadi just

13:09

delightful guy He was

13:11

a tailor right across the street from

13:14

the Mosque. Yes, and

13:16

he'd seen this woman sitting there. She was

13:18

there for seven hours or so Right and

13:20

he'd seen her that people had gone up

13:22

and tried to talk to her But she

13:24

only spoke her do and they all spoke,

13:26

you know, Farsi or whatever. Yeah, and So

13:29

he went out in the end and he

13:32

spoke her do because he had been a

13:34

tailor during his trade around Pakistan and

13:36

he talks to her and Says, you

13:38

know, it's getting dark. It's a war zone. You

13:40

really shouldn't be out there You could go stay

13:43

with my mother or whatever. Yeah, that's

13:45

when the police show up and when

13:47

they're gonna shoot her This man stands

13:49

between her and the gun says you've

13:51

got it all wrong and

13:55

Now I have so much respect for that guy.

13:58

He saved Althea's life They

14:00

don't shoot her, they take her into

14:02

custody, they then take her to the

14:04

police headquarters. Now this is

14:06

where it all gets very interesting. They

14:09

say, the Americans say, that she

14:11

was being held at the Afghan

14:13

National Police headquarters. When

14:16

they came and they

14:18

came into the room where she was behind a curtain,

14:21

and one of the

14:23

soldiers put his M4 rifle on

14:25

the ground. I don't

14:28

know if you believe that, you believe in

14:30

senators, but at any rate, she supposedly snatches

14:32

up the M4 rifle and starts shooting at

14:34

them. I said she'd know where the

14:36

safety catch, well do you know where the safety catch

14:39

is on an M4? Pray not, pray not. No, you're

14:41

not a great terrorist, so neither do I, but

14:45

I do now because I went and checked

14:47

one out. Yeah. But they

14:50

say she was trying to shoot two

14:52

Americans. It's total nonsense. There's

14:54

no gunshot residue on her, her fingerprints

14:56

are not on the gun, there's no

14:59

gunshot residue on the curtain. They

15:01

say there are two bullet holes in the

15:03

wall, but we checked that out and actually,

15:05

there's a video of the wall earlier in

15:07

the day and the two holes are up

15:09

there, there's no bullets in the wall, there's

15:11

no shell casings, there's no nothing. So that's

15:13

a lie. What really happened

15:16

was that she was in that

15:18

room behind the curtain, hears American

15:20

voices, and thinks, oh my

15:22

goodness, they're gonna take me back to

15:25

Bagram, she peeks around the curtain, one

15:27

of them sees her and says, she's

15:29

on the loose and shoots her. There

15:32

had just been another incident where

15:35

a soldier had been accused of killing

15:38

someone without justification and had been

15:40

put on a criminal trial. So

15:42

they're all very paranoid about that. So they make

15:44

up this story, that she was

15:46

meant to be dead and they were gonna plant

15:49

this evidence on her. I always thought that was

15:51

probably true, but I didn't have any proof, I

15:53

do now. Because

15:56

they say that she had on her

15:58

a bag with some... proof about

16:00

nuclear weapons and proof about

16:03

biological weapons. Well

16:05

I met the police officer who

16:08

wrote an inventory of what was in her

16:10

bag when she was arrested and

16:13

his inventory says women's

16:15

clothing, no mention of all this

16:17

other stuff. And

16:21

also the Americans said in her trial that

16:23

the governor of Gasny brought all

16:25

the material of nuclear weapons and

16:27

so forth and showed it to

16:29

the Americans and gave it to them, which I

16:31

always thought was pretty weird because you don't do that

16:34

in a criminal case. I met the

16:36

governor of Gasny, he gave me a sworn statement

16:38

saying this is nonsense, the guy who says it,

16:40

I don't even know who he is, I didn't

16:42

have any of the evidence, but now

16:45

we've also got evidence of another

16:47

person who was on the bus

16:49

with Ather with a bag

16:51

which clearly contained all of that material.

16:54

And what was going to happen was

16:56

they were going to shoot Ather and her son, they

16:58

were then going to plant this material on

17:01

her and then the story in the

17:03

Pakistan media would have been evil

17:06

Al-Qaeda woman going

17:08

to blow herself up with her son,

17:11

what an evil person she

17:13

was killed. That was what was meant

17:15

to happen. When you say they are

17:17

we talking about the Americans, we're

17:19

talking about Pakistanis, the Afghan government

17:22

at the time who we're talking about. The Afghan government

17:24

had nothing to do with it, no. I'm

17:26

not going to name who it is because they

17:28

know who they are, I know who they are,

17:31

but part of this is about convincing

17:34

the people behind this that

17:36

if they'll just go along with us

17:39

getting justice for Ather, no

17:41

one needs to know about it, who

17:43

they are, but on the other hand if they

17:45

don't, I'm going to have to disclose

17:47

it. And I should say, I just want to

17:50

make this very clear, that there are people

17:52

in Pakistan to this day who are

17:54

threatening the family of Ather,

17:56

including her sister, her children.

18:00

It's not going to do you any good. I'm

18:03

representing Afia, right? What I do

18:05

is not their fault. Those

18:08

people, again I'm not naming them, abducted

18:13

Afia's sister not long ago and put

18:16

a hood over her head to try to convince her

18:19

that she should stop trying

18:21

to get justice for her sister. Recently,

18:23

this is Afia recently. I'm

18:27

not here again to speak for

18:29

Falsia. I have great respect for that

18:32

woman. But I've told her

18:34

and I want to tell everyone else

18:36

that I'm Afia's lawyer. I'm not Falsia's

18:38

lawyer. So what

18:41

I do is not Falsia's fault. If

18:43

they want to abduct someone, they can abduct me.

18:45

I don't really care. I'm old enough that

18:48

I've had a good life. But they

18:50

shouldn't be doing that to the family. That's

18:52

just very wrong. So

18:54

let me get the picture. So since

18:56

we last spoke, you've been to Afghanistan

18:59

and you've pieced together some

19:02

of the missing parts in this

19:04

case. So the big discovery

19:06

you've made is – there's

19:08

a couple of discoveries, but it seems to me that you're

19:11

convinced now there was a conspiracy to kill

19:13

Afia in 2008 outside that mosque. And

19:18

they would plant evidence on her in

19:20

order to implicate her

19:22

in some sort of suicide mission. And then

19:24

the narrative would be shown that Afia

19:27

was part of this greater

19:29

terrorist conspiracy. How

19:33

convinced are you of the

19:37

plausibility of people like Muhammadi and

19:39

others that you've met? Well,

19:42

Muhammadi is absolutely telling the truth. And I should

19:44

say I've got a lot of statements from a lot

19:46

of people. I've been

19:48

there twice now, and I'm going to go

19:50

back again in late April. And

19:53

it's not just the people I'm mentioning to you. I've

19:55

got statements from a number of other people.

19:58

There are six people who witnessed what happened.

20:00

happened, six people I got statements

20:02

from, there are probably more, what

20:05

happened outside the mosque, there's

20:07

200 people who were in the police

20:09

headquarters who witnessed all of that, and

20:12

then there were many, many people in the background

20:14

and the other places. So we'll have a lot

20:17

of evidence. We've already got a lot. But

20:20

there are problems in the

20:22

American system. If you don't

20:24

get justice early on in the US system, it's

20:26

quite hard to get it. I'm

20:29

going to America in two

20:31

days to bring back the

20:33

wife of one of my clients who

20:36

was sentenced to death 38 years ago. I've

20:39

proven exactly who did it. I've got a

20:41

judge at one point issued

20:44

an order saying that he was innocent, but

20:46

that's not enough to set him free in

20:48

the American system. And

20:50

his wife, who's 84, I'm going to go pick

20:52

her up and bring her back to come and

20:55

live with me and my wife in Dorset because

20:58

she's just been through enough. So

21:00

it's a real challenge to get

21:03

justice in America. But we

21:05

will. And we've also got to

21:07

look at the broader picture, which is how

21:09

to get better treatment for Afia in the

21:12

meantime. So let's say we'll come to Afia's

21:14

current situation where she is now in Fort

21:17

Worth in Texas. But

21:19

just so that I understand what

21:22

you're piecing together here. Well, actually, why are

21:25

you piecing this together? What's the ultimate end?

21:27

Are you trying to seek redress

21:29

in the courts for Afia

21:32

based on the statements

21:34

that you're compiling? Well, there are

21:36

various things that we need to do. One

21:38

is I want to challenge her conviction and

21:40

her sentence in the US courts in the

21:42

US courts in the Southern District of New

21:44

York. The judge was a guy called Judge

21:46

Berman. And he

21:48

was lied to. And he imposed

21:50

this 86 year old, 86 year

21:53

sentence on the premise

21:55

that Afia was wandering around as an

21:58

Al-Qaeda terrorist for five years. where

22:00

we can now prove that no, she was

22:03

being tortured in US custody. Right

22:06

now, as things stand, she is

22:08

facing more time in prison than

22:10

Howard Sheikh Mohammed, who is

22:12

in Guantanamo, and as I'm sure you know, is

22:15

accused of being the person behind 9-11.

22:19

Now, the chances are that he

22:21

won't do as much time as Asya,

22:24

because he's getting mitigation on his

22:27

sentence because it's now conceded that

22:29

the Americans tortured him. And

22:32

so the same should clearly happen to

22:34

Asya, even if they don't accept

22:36

that she's innocent, as they should do. She

22:39

should get mitigation of her sentence because of

22:41

what she's been through. And

22:43

I think everyone, including Howard Sheikh Mohammed,

22:45

would agree that she's been through worse

22:47

than he has. Yeah, because of her

22:49

children and what happened to

22:51

them. So that's one line.

22:53

I'm going to go back to course in

22:56

New York to do that. But then at

22:58

the same time, I'm aiming towards clemency as

23:00

well. Biden is

23:02

up for reelection on November

23:04

the 5th. On November

23:07

the 6th, I'll know if it's President Biden

23:09

or President Trump. My

23:11

bet is it will be President Trump. That

23:13

means that Biden has 10 weeks

23:15

between then and Trump taking office

23:18

in January the 21st, and

23:20

in those 10 weeks, he can do justice. And

23:23

we need to get through to him, through

23:26

people I know, but also through

23:28

high-powered Pakistani Americans, in

23:31

order to get the message across that

23:33

they should settle this. I

23:37

think I mentioned to you before, and it's

23:39

still my goal to engineer

23:42

a prisoner swap between her

23:44

and Shaquille Afridi, who

23:46

was the guy who helped the Americans kill bin

23:48

Laden. The Americans want him,

23:50

the Pakistani, or at least 98%

23:53

of the Pakistanis want Afia. So

23:56

if we can engineer that swap in

23:58

November, that'll be good. And

24:00

have you made any progress in engineering that

24:02

swap between the two? Well, I've

24:05

met with some congressmen and senators' staffers

24:07

to try to set that

24:10

in motion. And we've got

24:12

this really great judge in

24:14

Islamabad who's been ordering

24:16

the Pakistan Ministry of Foreign Affairs

24:18

to basically do their job and

24:20

help me. And so

24:23

they are now working with me to try

24:25

and get political influence in

24:27

America to engineer that swap.

24:29

I hope we can do it. It's a lot

24:31

of work, but there we go. Earlier

24:34

on, you mentioned that she's been

24:36

treated far more harshly than most

24:38

Guantanamo detainees like Carly Sheikh

24:41

Mohammed. Why? Like, what

24:43

is it about Afia that

24:45

subjects her in particular to such awful

24:47

treatment in the hands of? Ryan

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slash rentals. Terms apply. I

25:49

mean, look, there was a time when Grand Prix

25:51

was a thing. 2002.

26:00

And over the last 22 years, we forced the

26:02

United States to treat people much better in

26:09

Guantanamo. And while it's

26:11

not a Caribbean holiday camp, and

26:13

it is my holiday camp, I've

26:16

been there 42 times. But I

26:18

love going there because I like to meet people.

26:21

But it's a much better place

26:23

in many ways than

26:26

the prison that she's in. Because FMC cards work

26:28

very well. There's

26:31

just no oversight of it. There have been 13

26:33

guards convicted of raping prisoners

26:38

in cards well in the last

26:40

few years. And Afia has

26:43

been on the receiving end of those rapes and

26:47

sexual assaults. And I've

26:49

brought a complaint to the Bureau

26:51

of Prisons, which they're investigating about

26:53

what's happened to Afia. But

26:55

that's on top. And it happens all the time.

26:57

It happens routinely. And

27:00

that's on top of being in prison.

27:03

She's being abused in prison all the

27:05

time. So we've got to

27:07

stop that. And that's quite a

27:09

challenge. So why has this been

27:11

allowed to continue for so long? She's been

27:13

in prison since 2008. And

27:18

you said that you suggested last time, and you've

27:20

confirmed to her again that she's been treated awfully

27:22

in prison. What's allowed

27:25

that to continue for so long? A

27:28

big part of it is there's no spotlights.

27:31

It is the spotlight of attention that

27:34

gets people to behave in

27:36

these places. So that does work, the

27:38

attention. It works somewhat.

27:40

There are still horrible places. But

27:44

the reason all of this sexual abuse

27:46

goes on is no one's challenging it.

27:48

They annoyed me one time. I've been

27:50

to Sia eight times now. And

27:54

one time they made me wait for

27:56

an hour. And I was annoyed because I

27:58

had better things to do than sit. them.

28:01

And so I looked through

28:03

their visitation log and they'd

28:05

only had four legal visits

28:07

for almost a thousand prisoners,

28:09

976 prisoners, four legal

28:11

visits since I'd last been there. Wow.

28:14

At that rate, each prisoner is going to have

28:16

one legal visit every 80 years.

28:19

And this is why people

28:21

get away with doing such bad stuff. As

28:23

you give people power, they tend to abuse

28:26

it. And it's really important to have people

28:30

like me there to say, no,

28:32

you can't do that. And

28:35

so it's a real challenge. They

28:37

have no IMM in the whole prison.

28:39

There's no one to be there

28:41

as a spiritual guidance

28:43

or whatever. They

28:45

don't have any doctors who can

28:47

see her because she's a

28:50

conservative Muslim woman. She's not going to

28:52

just undergo strip

28:54

searches all the time. So

28:57

she's getting no medical care. She's

28:59

getting no religious

29:02

solace. So we've got

29:04

to force those issues. But it's shocking to

29:06

me that they haven't been forced long ago.

29:08

When we last spoke, he had just returned

29:10

from a visit where Fauzio,

29:12

her sister, for the first time had been

29:16

able to meet her at

29:19

that prison. And I think

29:21

I remember you suggested that had really

29:23

helped Fauzio's state of mind. I mean,

29:25

what is a general state of

29:30

mind since then? Well, Fauzio was there.

29:32

It was rather sweet. I was there

29:34

for the whole of the meetings just

29:36

to make sure it happened. And that

29:38

I butted out and just let these two

29:41

sisters talk and ended up singing nursery

29:43

rhymes that they used to sing on

29:45

the school playground. And that was

29:47

great. It was at some level very traumatic

29:50

for both of them. And

29:52

for Fauzio, because she was seeing

29:54

her wonderful, intelligent, younger sister

29:56

treated that way, for

29:58

Afia because she was seeing her sister

30:00

for the first time in 20 years. And Afira

30:02

is sort of frozen in time. When

30:05

she thinks of her children, she thinks of them

30:07

at age 6 months, 3 years, and 6 years.

30:11

And it's very difficult for her to think

30:13

otherwise because she's had all of this trauma.

30:17

So I got Fauzi to

30:19

go another time. We went again in

30:21

December. And

30:25

this was a bit of a disaster. I

30:27

mean, the first time I flew to Dubai

30:29

and flew with her into America, and so

30:31

everything went smoothly. I thought we'd

30:33

sort of potty trained the US government

30:35

a bit, so she was safe to

30:37

go by herself. No, she was stopped

30:40

at the airport and forced to sit

30:43

there for four hours while they determined whether she

30:45

was a terrorist or not. Then

30:47

when we got to the prison, the first day I

30:49

took her in, and I was just going to leave

30:51

her there to meet with her sister. And

30:55

you just don't know whether to laugh or

30:57

cry. They couldn't find a key to the

30:59

visitation room in the prison. Can you imagine

31:01

being in a prison, they can't find a

31:03

key? So her whole

31:05

visit was cancelled, having come 13,000

31:07

kilometers. I

31:12

managed to get her in a couple of other times

31:14

for meetings at a cost of... I

31:18

couldn't see Afira for those times. But

31:21

it's just a mess. Falsia was

31:24

very upset by the whole thing,

31:26

and so we've been litigating to

31:29

force the US to treat her better next

31:31

time. So I hope to take her back

31:33

sometime over the summer, because

31:35

I think it's very good for everyone. Great.

31:39

And you've been to Afghanistan now

31:41

on a couple of occasions on your fact-finding

31:43

mission. You're trying to find out about

31:46

the detail of Afia's arrest and the

31:48

horrific things that happened there, a background

31:50

elsewhere. I suppose

31:52

my question about your visit to Afghanistan

31:55

is it's obviously a changed place since

31:57

the Americans left. Did.

32:00

You have any worries A do have

32:02

any worries about you security when you

32:04

arrive and how to the Taliban treaty

32:07

for example. Look I've lived in America,

32:09

I don't have any concerns about Afghanistan

32:11

or faces a minute. Look if I

32:13

went to Afghanistan on another ask him

32:15

prisoner from Guantanamo's case. Back and twenty

32:17

seven team here and it was horrible

32:19

I was. You can do anything. This

32:21

is junior America and I'm an amateur

32:24

with their now it's fine or any

32:26

and it was interesting and we still

32:28

have program on Afghanistan at some point

32:30

Iraq. Is it was very very I meant.

32:34

To government migrates. Dame.

32:37

Has often been in Guantanamo so they

32:39

really understand what this is about which

32:41

is more than safe and the British

32:43

government for the Americans. On.

32:46

Their. Secure Sees absolutely site. they would

32:49

really nice to me and down

32:51

insisted I should have security along

32:53

with me. Totally unnecessary that I

32:55

tell security guys and like I'm

32:57

going to Texas next week and

32:59

it you to come they're not

33:01

at. The.

33:04

It does a real disconnect between

33:06

Afghanistan and the rest and. One.

33:09

Thing as she I wanted to try

33:11

to help them on his get American

33:13

Lawyers to represent them. Because.

33:15

For example, as a billion Dollars as

33:18

as can money phrase me by the

33:20

Americans. For. The American

33:22

victims is the Afghan War. When I

33:24

think there's a lot more Afghan victims

33:26

of the a scandal, I'm. That.

33:29

The current Afghan government I think

33:32

doesn't understand how to deal with

33:34

the rest in that way, and

33:36

I had interesting conversations about. What

33:40

the perception? Is. In the

33:42

west and. Yeah. You look

33:44

at Britain, are you look at America? does anyone

33:46

to section which is that Taliban are a bunch

33:48

of maniacs and they treat mom and dad named

33:50

so forth. Am.

33:54

I. Don't disagree that we

33:56

need to treat women

33:58

on better. Then I

34:00

think I currently own a different way

34:02

suicide them as currently happening in Afghanistan

34:05

or more than Saver Women's Education and

34:07

as of is it. Ended

34:10

up plenty of people in Afghanistan

34:12

who would agree with that. That.

34:15

What we're doing in the West is

34:17

with so vilifying the people in authority

34:20

dad that we're not having a discussion

34:22

in the same language. And. It's

34:24

very interesting to hear the side as

34:26

some of the people I talked to

34:28

that. They. Cause I I would

34:31

say in I wasn't trying of rubbish than

34:33

san not having women's education. That's not terribly

34:35

it's racist. But. I was

34:37

saying you know there are views

34:39

and the west and and Madison

34:42

said. Well. You know

34:44

we have similar views about the West.

34:46

We think the West treats poor people

34:48

incredibly deadly and a catalyst system. We

34:50

think that whole system's mad. I

34:52

tend to agree with and thankfully. I'm.

34:56

So. In a distant disconnect

34:58

and we need to start looking for

35:00

points that agreements and said a points

35:02

of disagreement we need to help the

35:05

Afghan government that the doing okay economically

35:07

then given all the sanctions that that

35:09

doing better than Pakistan. The. We

35:11

need to help v integrate them

35:13

and twelve society instead of just.

35:16

Sanctioning. Them and telling all of

35:18

their evil. And you been to Afghanistan

35:20

Is there a space to foster son

35:22

from a civil society? Connections between say

35:25

British. People. And and and

35:27

a huge here to Tennessee I was.

35:29

I am I was planning I don't

35:31

think I get it done this time

35:33

that was planning on taking a cricket

35:35

team out Now yes they're mad about

35:37

trick it. I love say I'm mad

35:39

about forget right and everywhere you go.

35:41

I was there and you know when

35:43

was that February? Minus thirteen degrees. And.

35:46

They were playing cricket every ran the

35:48

snow. I mean, I admire that am

35:50

and I think it's really important for

35:53

us to reach out one of my

35:55

Guantanamo signs. Was. The founder

35:57

if he asked can cricket

35:59

says. Right? Any and they've

36:01

had for could teams men's and women's

36:04

and the great and my getting and

36:06

and the World Cup. So.

36:08

I think there are ways that we

36:10

can really reach out to tasteless human

36:12

things and men's that ever come and

36:15

see the Afghanistan. That. I

36:17

saw. And then and

36:19

gains engage in ways to make things

36:21

at a for everyone so bad to

36:23

a doctor. obvious case now. I'm

36:26

at as you know our view as

36:28

up moving ready to help at me

36:30

that in any way they can and

36:32

I think the majority of muslims that

36:34

I speak to. And. I see why

36:36

the numbers into care about this case. Majority.

36:39

Of us really don't know where to how

36:41

how to help out. At

36:43

can you summarize what help

36:46

you still require legally. Funded.

36:48

Wise would help you require and

36:51

and how can the. Ordinary.

36:53

And are you due to contested that time the

36:55

last time the that? But how can you ordinary

36:57

person help you and help us here. Make.

37:00

A difference here And I dare

37:02

say I would say that everyone

37:04

has talents that makes them extraordinary

37:06

and I can. I can abuse

37:08

anyone Mccallum says advocates and an

37:10

actor Basically true for our his

37:12

first. Please. Do continue to

37:14

send her letters of encouragement and

37:16

make them detail don't make him

37:18

on mine. Make. Him why

37:21

you're inspired by what she's gone

37:23

through. Because that really helps her.

37:25

And. It really helps her to know that

37:27

people on the outside know who she is

37:29

care about sir and. And.

37:32

Nicer on and I I think that's

37:34

really good. said get second ass. Did

37:36

she know that before? Know that it's

37:38

we had no idea she touches totally

37:40

thing on Friday and so that's sad.

37:42

be less and down and I think

37:44

of all the things as achieve does.

37:46

Found that from the number one and

37:48

and I view. And. I'm

37:50

the second issue is

37:52

that some. We. Do

37:55

need how many particular health

37:57

and breed seen. The.

38:00

The echelons of Power and

38:02

America and in Pakistan here to

38:04

convince them to go ahead

38:06

by the swap. Come. November.

38:09

Was. Something like that to at least to

38:11

show compassion. We. Need. I

38:14

need some help. Goodness. Knows.

38:17

And. The nice Charnley been

38:19

blacklisted die. These. Funding

38:21

organizations representing Rcm because they

38:23

think is something criminal about

38:25

going to Afghanistan. And

38:27

that's annoying. And in I'm going

38:30

to America and I'm in a

38:32

higher an investigator for example, who

38:34

has experience in areas that I

38:37

can't reach in a he was

38:39

actually a soldier in. Afghanistan

38:42

and diagram at the time. With all of

38:44

this, he knows all of those people. Are

38:47

I need that helped? It's gonna cost

38:49

twenty thousand dollars on say So I

38:51

need ten race and sons to that.

38:54

On the right now it's difficult because I

38:56

can't do a crowd funded. Com.

38:59

That in I'm that guy. Got a towel

39:01

on my website. Cinema months to donate a

39:04

Be very grateful that if there is a

39:06

high net worth individuals who wants to cover

39:08

some or all of that cost, how did

39:10

they reach? How about into give my email?

39:13

I'll be glad to tell him not my

39:15

charity, my non profit, some. Classes

39:18

are very Grateful Dead. I don't

39:20

want people to think that. That's.

39:22

Gonna stand between men getting the job

39:24

done and on a do. Regardless, yes,

39:26

I'm. Then. We

39:29

need experts on. I

39:31

need legal help San Louis in

39:33

America because I've this is much

39:35

bigger than. Than. I'd saw it.

39:37

And it's much bigger than I standing

39:39

Alaron can handle in the sense that we

39:42

need to soothe prisons and Eight and Prison

39:44

behave better. We need to see them

39:46

to get the Mm thin to get

39:48

the doctors in. We. Need ten

39:50

do all sorts of but I

39:53

would do as collateral mitigation situation

39:55

I need. In. A preferably

39:58

people who really committed suicide. sort

40:00

of Pakistan American lawyers

40:03

or from big firms who

40:05

can help me do that sort

40:07

of litigation. I can do all the

40:09

regular stuff that I'm used to in

40:11

terms of litigating her conviction

40:14

and sentence in New York.

40:17

So all of that helps is useful. I need...

40:19

Where do they have to be situated in the

40:21

US? Ideally Texas,

40:23

but Washington and New York work

40:25

too. I've worked

40:27

my entire career with pro

40:30

bono law firms who had

40:32

massive resources and who

40:34

are able to help me

40:36

outgun the government so

40:39

that we can get some justice for her.

40:41

So that sort of help would be incredibly

40:43

helpful and so on and so forth. There's

40:45

really no limit. You were about to

40:48

say there's another... Sorry,

40:51

I cut you short. There was something else you were about

40:53

to say. Well, I mean, look, there are things like what

40:55

you're doing. I'm grateful to you

40:58

for doing this program because we

41:00

need media coverage. I'm

41:03

going to take a

41:05

film crew to Afghanistan next time because we need

41:08

to get coverage out

41:10

there to begin

41:12

to put some pressure on,

41:14

particularly still the reticent parts

41:16

of the Pakistan High Command

41:19

because there is people there who won't talk

41:21

to me, I wish they would, who

41:24

are trying to thwart our efforts to get

41:27

off your home. And I

41:29

just got this message for them. It's

41:31

the same message I've always given to government

41:34

for my Guantanamo client. I want

41:36

to work with you to make this work out

41:38

well and we'll give credit

41:40

to the people who help get her out

41:42

and everything will be good. If

41:45

that doesn't happen, I've only got one

41:47

option, which is to expose the torture

41:49

that she went through and who was

41:51

behind it. I don't want to do

41:53

that. It doesn't achieve anything for anyone, but

41:55

I need the people who are paranoid

41:58

about that to call. Cooperate

42:00

because otherwise we can't get a home.

42:02

I suppose one reason why they continue

42:05

to incarcerate us is She

42:07

would be a problem for them if she

42:09

was outside talking. I mean how how

42:12

do you square that? So that's easy I mean,

42:14

she's not gonna be she is so traumatized Yeah,

42:17

look look at her son and daughter who

42:19

are home and have been for years Yeah,

42:22

those kids that they're getting on with

42:24

their life and I have great admiration

42:26

for them, but they won't talk

42:28

about What happened

42:31

because partly because they're intimidated

42:34

but partly because they're just totally

42:36

traumatized now Afia is so traumatized

42:39

that she just needs to be in hospital and

42:41

she needs to be getting the help she needs

42:43

Yeah, and she needs to be

42:45

never heard from again in that sense and

42:47

I think we can pretty much guarantee that

42:50

That's not gonna be an issue. But on the other

42:52

hand if this continues The only

42:54

option I've got is to publicize everything I

42:56

find out And that's

42:59

just not gonna be good for

43:02

the people who are behind him And

43:04

we don't know anything else about Soleiman

43:06

and and he's whereabouts whether he he's

43:09

dead or not We don't know and

43:11

it's interesting to ask people about this. I

43:13

mean, you know, you've got kids well,

43:16

so if one of them if

43:19

you weren't sure if your Son

43:21

was alive or dead which

43:24

would be worse Yeah to know that your

43:26

child's dead or to just not be sure.

43:28

Yeah, and I think it's

43:30

not being sure That

43:33

is so difficult. So I wish

43:36

someone would just tell us what happened, you

43:38

know, we're not gonna Sue

43:40

them or persecute them. We just need

43:42

to know the family's sake. Can I

43:44

ask you about Mars and

43:46

begs you know, I've done a star

43:48

with Mars and he's He

43:51

was detained at the airport when he

43:53

returned under section schedule 7 is it?

43:57

But but also more broadly There's

44:00

you've noticed in the last week,

44:02

Michael Gove has announced this extremism

44:05

label and definition or redefinition

44:08

that's come out of his government. And

44:11

Maza and Cage, his

44:13

organization are implicated in,

44:16

they're probably exhibit A from Michael

44:18

Gove's perspective. They encapsulate

44:21

this Islamist extremism that the government is

44:23

trying to fight. I mean, what's your

44:25

comment on all of that? Well, first,

44:29

Michael Gove's definition of extremism, one

44:32

of the red flag indicators

44:34

is that you exhibit socialist

44:36

thought. Well, I'm

44:40

absolutely guilty of that. And if they

44:42

want to lock me up, put me

44:44

in handcuffs right now. It's

44:46

just madness, right? I

44:49

was reading The Guardian on

44:51

Thursday and

44:53

there I'm quoted. And I didn't realize

44:55

I'd talk to him. I hadn't talked

44:57

to him. But I'm quoted as saying

45:00

that I think Cage and Mazaambeg play

45:02

a vital role in the human rights

45:04

work. Well,

45:06

I don't remember when I said that. It's true, I'll

45:08

say it over and over again. I didn't

45:12

realize that what really shocked me

45:14

was the context, was that they

45:16

were saying that my friend and

45:18

colleague Mazaambeg is somehow

45:20

an extremist. Now,

45:22

Michael Gove was once

45:25

Secretary of Education Minister.

45:27

And so he should know

45:30

that the word prejudice comes

45:32

from the Latin pre-udice. And

45:35

it means pre-judgment when you don't

45:38

know any facts. He's accusing Mazaambeg

45:40

of being prejudiced in some extremist

45:42

way, which is total nonsense. But

45:45

Michael Gove is prejudiced. He's never

45:47

bothered to meet Mazaambeg.

45:49

He didn't bother to

45:52

talk to him before he taught him

45:54

and the media. And he

45:56

did it in a coward's way. He did

45:58

it under parliamentary privilege. where he can

46:00

say it without being sued. So I

46:02

got two challenges for Mr. Gove. The

46:05

first and by far the best one

46:07

would be if he agrees to meet with

46:10

me and Merzim in person so he can

46:12

meet Merzim. Cause when I

46:14

did that with the former Chief

46:17

Justice, now sadly dead, Tom

46:19

Bingham, Lord Bingham, Lord

46:21

Bingham met Merzim and heard what

46:23

a reasonable person he is and

46:26

how he's about reconciliation and forgiveness,

46:28

notwithstanding all the awful things he

46:30

went through in Guantanamo. Lord

46:34

Bingham said to Merzim, I

46:36

didn't realize there were people like you in

46:38

Guantanamo Bay. And you know, he

46:40

had a lot of respect for Merzim, which was

46:43

great and it's as it should be. And I

46:45

have a lot of respect for Merzim. So if

46:47

Gove wants to meet with Merzim, I'm happy to

46:49

facilitate it. He can then change his view.

46:52

The alternative is he can get up and not

46:54

be a coward and say what he said in

46:56

public and let us sue him. Because

46:59

these people need to be taught

47:01

a lesson that they can't go

47:03

around just slandering people and

47:05

think that they can get away with it. My

47:07

job is to protect the powerless against the powerful.

47:10

And I don't like powerful people

47:13

doing what Gove did

47:15

to Merzim back. So I wrote

47:18

a letter to the guardian just today on the train

47:21

coming to see you, saying

47:23

just this, that I would challenge him

47:25

to meet with us and

47:27

make his own judgment based not on

47:30

ignorance, but on fact. And

47:32

if he does that, he'll realize

47:34

that Merzim is the past Nino

47:36

who is a profoundly decent human

47:38

being. Finally, Clive, when

47:41

I last spoke to you, you

47:43

were quite optimistic about Afia's

47:46

case and that she would be released.

47:48

And have you assessed or reassessed that

47:50

based on Your engagements at

47:52

Forth Worth? I Mean, you- What sort of

47:54

person Do you think I am? Do You

47:56

think I'm not a pathetic optimist under any

47:58

circumstances? No, I have- Racist or any

48:01

with the we gonna get justice

48:03

for us here. Ah. That. The

48:05

only question is how long it's gonna

48:07

take. Ah I do see it is

48:10

a big battle yeah and I don't

48:12

think that we can approach this assists

48:14

it said. System.

48:16

That Works is Not a system that works.

48:18

We have to approach it in terms of

48:20

the leverage Wheaton bring to bear on have.

48:23

Behalf. In order to get

48:25

us some form of justice. And

48:27

okay thank you And so you're asks

48:29

are your media asks how we need

48:32

to raise twenty thousand pat dollars. For.

48:34

For obvious case and to eat immunity

48:36

race car lot more than that idea

48:39

is nuts are not accustomed as to

48:41

see investigation and American can we need

48:43

a team of lawyers in America to

48:45

help you with with her case you

48:47

have on and most importantly and easiest

48:49

is the your listeners do as ten

48:52

send me letters that the address I'll

48:54

give you is. That. The

48:56

one that works best His size.

48:58

Stafford Smith Twenty twenty at email.com.

49:01

Threats. My test Norman and that Louis where

49:03

kids me flies on. The grateful for your

49:05

time to their thank you very so It's

49:07

my pleasure. Please.

49:12

Remember to subscribe to our social

49:14

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49:16

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49:18

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49:20

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