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1:19

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1:21

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1:23

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1:26

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1:28

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1:30

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1:32

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1:34

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1:41

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1:46

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1:48

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1:50

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1:52

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1:55

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1:57

social media what are talk to

1:59

people. when we meet people, that's

2:01

what they say. Why are we so aggressive

2:03

in that? Why didn't you ask that question? Why

2:06

do you insist on banging on about that

2:08

story, but you seem to ignore that

2:11

one? And the closer we

2:13

get to an election, the more the world

2:15

is troubled. People will

2:17

think, here, I really want

2:20

to hear about that, but you seem obsessed with this. And

2:22

it is genuinely helpful for us, as

2:25

well as I hope interesting for you,

2:28

to try to get underneath why we take

2:30

the decisions we do. Nobody could accuse you

2:32

of banging on about anything, Nick. But we

2:34

have recorded an extra bonus episode this week

2:36

for you, our lovely listeners, and it features

2:38

brilliant questions from you, from all the

2:40

listeners to this podcast, which you've been sending in over

2:42

the past few weeks, and for which

2:44

we would say a very sincere thank you.

2:47

And not only listeners, but people who are

2:49

listeners, but have been here in

2:51

this studio, or talking to us, at least, in this

2:53

studio. We're gonna hear from Mr.

2:55

Ranson. We're gonna hear from Stephen Fry. So

2:58

if you have got a question, or you've got

3:00

an observation, send us a voice note on our

3:02

WhatsApp number, plus four, four, three,

3:05

three, oh, one, two, three, four, three,

3:07

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3:09

three, oh, one, two, three, four,

3:11

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3:13

about how to record those voice notes, we'll spell

3:15

it out at the end. But meantime. Let's do

3:17

it. This is gonna be a fun

3:23

episode.

3:30

Let's hear immediately from Jackie N. Kent. Hi,

3:35

I'm Ola Nick. I read an article

3:37

about lightweight politics being the new normal.

3:39

I think you should look into this, and

3:42

the potential dangers of lightweight populist government in

3:44

a post-truth world. How did we come to

3:46

have such characters in charge? All right,

3:48

do you wanna start? You can go for it. Well, I've

3:50

got a question about the question. And I've got a thesis,

3:52

but we'll come to that. There's

3:54

a surprise. What do we

3:57

mean lightweight? You see, what often people think

3:59

and particularly... older people

4:02

is that the leaders we have now here

4:04

around the world are not

4:06

like the leaders they grew up with. And

4:09

I think there's some truth in that but

4:12

it's sometimes overdone. There is no

4:15

doubt that the leaders

4:17

I first remember, I've just turned 60,

4:20

when I was a kid had the kind

4:22

of heft, if you like, that came

4:24

in part, let's just say it, from

4:26

being the wartime generation. That

4:28

when you looked at people who had fought

4:30

and put their lives on the line and

4:33

had thought that democracy was on the line

4:35

and that their country was on the line,

4:38

there was a kind of seriousness about

4:41

what they thought about the world. And

4:44

there was something else as well which is often forgotten, which

4:46

is that although that generation was

4:49

overwhelmingly posh, privately

4:51

educated, white, older men,

4:54

having served in the armed forces, they'd

4:56

mixed. So someone like

4:58

Harold McMillan the last of the

5:00

great sort of grand conservative prime

5:02

ministers, arguably, spoke again

5:05

and again about his service, not in the

5:07

second one more, but in the trenches and

5:10

the people he'd met and the people he

5:12

believed it was his duty to help. So

5:15

you might look now and think it

5:17

sounds very paternalistic, that view of the

5:19

world, but there was substance there. Yeah,

5:21

people actually have quite a nostalgic and

5:23

romantic recollection of it. Come on,

5:25

here's your start of the 10. Who were the

5:27

six, and don't pretend you haven't thought about this

5:29

because I know you think about it all day

5:31

long, who were the six candidates for the Labour

5:33

leadership in 1976? Go on. Are you

5:37

serious? Come on. Who were the six

5:39

grandies? Who were the six

5:41

people that stood for the Labour leadership?

5:43

I'll tell you, Callaghan, Ben, Jenkins, Crosland,

5:46

Healy and Michael Foote, as you say,

5:48

all of whom had been through the

5:50

war, bibliophiles, massively well educated, giant British

5:52

politics, and all quite old. And isn't

5:55

there one thing which Jackie's Onto,

5:57

which is that people have gone into the

5:59

politics and serving as M P's at a

6:01

much younger age These days of course have

6:03

always been p Which Audi Kennedy your way

6:05

back when the church A when it's poetics

6:07

very young age is in his twenties when

6:09

he he became an Npc but it is

6:11

true that the Jackie's right so that people

6:13

do going to Parliament youngest I'm I'm having

6:15

lunch with as at the Independence with Can

6:17

Bake. I'm always fascinated by education reforms. kind

6:20

of. Baker was the education says you brew

6:22

in the big curriculum, the National curriculum and

6:24

Nine Ninety Once and he said the big

6:26

change in his lifetime is it used to

6:28

be you made a bit of money. And

6:30

then you. It's politics was Now you go

6:32

to politics, leave and then you make minimum

6:34

payments and younger nice to make. Been about

6:36

the people at the very top of your

6:38

tax a return. The lot of a lot

6:40

of people are leave. politics of my almost

6:42

no money at all is quite tough being

6:44

an X M P n less your cashing

6:46

in on. Years of experts have the. Right,

6:50

we met degeneration And so in

6:52

my time as political editor, a

6:55

loss of the people in senior

6:57

positions. Yes, and politics were exercises.

7:00

Yeah so you look at on the lay

7:02

beside me. Too bad said Milliband at bulls.

7:04

David Miliband yes all of whom have been

7:06

advisers to go brattle to Tony Blair your

7:09

called the Tory side how deeds David Cameron,

7:11

George Osborne get to know each other People

7:13

used to refer to the best the know

7:16

feel safer to they live near each of

7:18

us. actually it many ways they will. Smith's

7:20

Square sets miss great with the hope is

7:22

you know to conserve is central office as

7:25

it used to be killed and they sat.

7:27

I. Think next to this to each

7:29

other oxide. Times

7:33

That's why they became mates. That's why they came

7:35

to a view of but the future the Tory

7:37

party utterly we get people quite like that that

7:39

anymore that that was a bit of a moment.

7:42

that's how it look as good as an elo

7:44

them to T V is somebody else in the

7:46

studio did. That was a bit of a moment.

7:48

It was a civil was a flash which I

7:50

think has traits are safe. You look at Kiss

7:52

Dharma he has had a career before politics. he

7:54

rather be public services starts at public prosecutions. He

7:56

or she said I use a millennial. The I

7:58

got into politics in his late. I didn't

8:01

have a career in rather be

8:03

successful career at. he did a

8:05

few different things to. So what's

8:07

Jesse? Get a gas I suspect

8:09

Jackie You're thinking of the Trump's

8:11

and dare I say the Boris

8:13

Johnson's Because I think what happened

8:15

to say is the off that

8:17

the college young politico said became

8:19

politicians. What we've now got a

8:22

celebrity's to? We've got people rising

8:24

to the top of politics simply

8:26

because they already have a big

8:28

following on T V originally. Now

8:30

increasingly. On social media. So

8:32

yes because The Apprentice Yes Boris

8:34

Johnson because he became famous because

8:36

of have I Got News for

8:39

You but said he even said

8:41

you gotta be careful because I've

8:43

secretly remember on the eve of

8:45

the invasion of Ukraine a front

8:47

page story in the financial times

8:49

it'll papers saying that the was

8:51

weak points that Ukraine had is

8:54

it had this X T V

8:56

comic Yep as it's president lot

8:58

of is a landscape. If

9:00

only they had somebody. was nazis Jackie's word

9:03

like right now he fit it all the

9:05

criteria big my way. He was just a

9:07

celeb. We made it into politics, turned out

9:09

to eat. Meat in them

9:12

that we see colonists thirty know about

9:14

people into the moments reveals a character

9:16

but yep the media has a policy

9:18

specific is a good answer your question

9:21

Jackie thank you very much less less

9:23

here from fill in a refund in

9:25

North Yorkshire Hi Nick in the mouth

9:28

When did you last? Genuinely praise a

9:30

serving Uk politicians to simply may have

9:32

achieved for our country and de sade

9:34

that adversarial journalism is potentially com speech

9:37

into the increasing public distrust. I'm failure

9:39

of our politicians lost all. In that

9:41

one fill Thank you so much to

9:43

know that question. This sub is a

9:45

brilliant risks of. I've thought very very

9:47

long and hard about this. I want

9:50

to be someone as a journalist day

9:52

my sinuses a know that it's it's

9:54

impartial, I wouldn't be so and who

9:56

celebrates and support democracy and I want

9:58

to be someone who a. Lords

10:00

due respect for people who.

10:03

Work. Very, very hard to serve the public

10:05

is members of parliament or local councils, whatever

10:07

they might do, and I find it hard

10:09

reconciling that desire with a symbol Chinese demand

10:12

on me to be tough and scrutinize people

10:14

as one of the ways in which I've

10:16

tried to reconcile that which I'd identify the

10:18

other if you do today, actually. But I

10:20

always congratulate people if I speak to them.

10:23

off they've just been reelected, department, or the

10:25

just won a seat on the council or

10:27

whatever might be. So no matter who they

10:29

are, what part of the are, if they've

10:32

run for public office, A painter campaign

10:34

and devoted about them are starting to

10:36

I say congratulations, pathetic, disrespectful. I do

10:38

think it's quite hard because when you

10:41

start congratulate and people on areas where

10:43

they have had success. If it's in

10:45

any way contentious, I think you might

10:48

compromise you impartiality techies. you get a

10:50

difficulty with praising someone for their success.

10:52

Is what success? How do you judge?

10:55

That's up to the listener to judge.

10:57

Six hundred redirect with you. So I

10:59

didn't think it is my job. In

11:02

fact, I absolutely think. It's not

11:04

my job to praise politicians

11:06

full their success, but the

11:09

second half of those question

11:11

which is is adversarial journalism

11:14

increasing public distrust of politicians.

11:16

Well. I think he can.

11:18

So I do think it's our

11:21

job to give politicians the space

11:23

to explain why things are complicated.

11:25

They're not black and white, that

11:27

binary. It is our job to

11:30

allow for the complexity. I'll always

11:32

remember Tony Blair off the stopping

11:34

prime Minister saying the things you

11:36

guys administered the state really appreciate

11:39

his most decisions of Fifty One

11:41

Forty Nine. You know, we

11:43

sit, that we argue, we debate. there

11:45

isn't a ride Sansa There are two

11:47

usually quite difficult, potentially wrong answers. He

11:50

got picked one of them. To phrase

11:52

it, Nick is often heard me say

11:54

well said next the Today Programme Studio

11:56

which I often say to politicians is

11:58

all policies have tradeoffs. And on

12:00

things I small boats I'm always very very

12:02

keen to say look this is hard hit

12:04

with a small boats is a particular issue

12:06

to that you're dealing with other countries as

12:09

you are on all migration policy so I

12:11

try to front load the complexity. I tried

12:13

to own that so that the politicians don't

12:15

waste time in the arts is by stating

12:17

that complex the stays a question for you.

12:19

There's nary where you could seek says it's

12:21

just not my place to take a view

12:23

but I'm I'm very interested in education, particularly

12:25

as it applies to the poorest people in

12:28

our society. The Michael Gove, Nick Gabe reforms.

12:30

Of the early coalition is are

12:32

generally held the streets safe or

12:34

jerry how to to been a

12:36

decisive factor in the fact that

12:38

England. England not written. England.

12:40

Has gone quite significant up the global

12:43

rankings on what could the pieces cause?

12:45

A basic levels of literacy and numeracy

12:47

though school reforms? no one is looking

12:49

on doing them. They were conservative decision

12:52

within coalition government and people generally think

12:54

they've gone quite well. If I was

12:56

into Michael Govan, it gives. Should

12:58

I notice that would have a reasonable for

13:01

failed to expect Nick Robinson or Mirage and

13:03

say look we weren't. Will. It

13:05

be reasonable to provide evidence.

13:08

And to ask them what they conclude

13:10

from the but not been told not

13:12

to and dorsal to price. So I

13:15

do and have and you may well

13:17

have done say to the politicians who

13:19

are running the Scottish education system was

13:21

a lie behind England. And isn't

13:23

seat? Perhaps because of. The

13:26

use of phonics away. I

13:32

might. Say Tartare politician.

13:35

Didn't. Labor during that period managed to get

13:37

the way to miss out on Elsa sent

13:39

an implicit price, but I don't think it's

13:42

my job to sightings are asserting. Labour politician.

13:45

You've. Done very well on that. I

13:47

mean he's is the problem that I

13:49

think politicians face. It may be that

13:51

still thinks this is right to is

13:54

that we as a society we as

13:56

people in the major a turbulent to

13:58

x politicians. That we have

14:01

or than treat with respects people

14:03

from William Hague of the rights

14:05

to Ed balls or molested and

14:07

you know will to them as

14:09

if they're made of wisdom at

14:11

the top. Darcy in office they

14:13

get kind of knocked about to

14:15

base the due to funnier of

14:17

relief officer to say that it's

14:19

i target for the adding become

14:21

more open my my view really

14:23

fell is that we should rewards.

14:25

Tender. And honesty. Id Ids

14:28

fees so people are willing to

14:30

say this. Theses complicated. This is

14:32

the tradeoff. I don't know. other

14:34

price. A politician now in public

14:37

and I did it. In

14:39

a what's up careful in it's last week

14:41

Treasury Minister Laura Trott was asked a question

14:43

about the smoking ban oh yes I have

14:46

about was reported or the not I said

14:48

I don't I to visit of as you

14:50

guys I'm not the health minister Yes yes

14:52

no there is no central message. The reason

14:54

to your shoutout for a now is. She's.

14:57

Told the truth she said. On.

15:00

Say I don't know she gave us a

15:02

reason she by.nice to treasury minister still health

15:04

minister see couple to. Get

15:10

you know yeah sort of this the

15:12

coverings up so I think we should

15:14

reward and of thing listeners. Do.

15:17

Reward tend yeah think I felt stressing

15:19

on social media going to go viral

15:21

to nicer publicist says yes talkie of

15:23

their frustrations, the politicians to remember that

15:26

out take of Julian seated at the

15:28

end of A and I see the

15:30

years that he is a waste of

15:32

resources about Rak. You know that com

15:34

creatures having to deal with it at

15:37

a book called the To Shot in

15:39

television as the shot We see the

15:41

reporter and the interviewee at the same

15:43

time. It's a bit the kind of

15:45

sets about be talking. To education

15:48

sector to see Socially services

15:50

says sound off. With

15:52

other say what you've done of the joke

15:55

as everyone else has sat on there and

15:57

done nothing nelson that no signs of that.

16:00

It. Was magic pure? Think of it,

16:02

he's another thought. Maybe this is provoking

16:04

another question for another week. We.

16:06

See right during these. And

16:08

other words: Rak. The. Scandal of

16:11

the Country became a

16:13

Calendars national mockup Your

16:15

daughter's baby food. That

16:19

is it. On it for the schools

16:21

involved to add some new. People out there

16:23

had huge bills. I'm not belittling. it said

16:25

very big deal. Was it

16:28

that national disaster that sometimes

16:30

the headlines made heard? Also

16:32

the news caravans moved on.

16:34

Now we've hope for Jackie

16:37

with her from fill. How

16:39

about a certain. Esta.

16:42

Hi. Nate hi I'm all. This.

16:44

Is Esther Rantzen and I have a question for.

16:46

You. We all know that

16:49

you are both extremely skilled

16:51

and talented. Interview. As. But

16:53

have you ever done any

16:56

interviews when so badly wrong

16:58

that the very memory makes

17:01

you blush? Even today

17:03

Sankyo the as a it's the same

17:05

I couldn't see or blushes on. Radio

17:07

as far as to thank you so much

17:09

rather just before you mean for years and

17:11

they sit were saying it's so good to

17:13

hear for he's a esta and our regular

17:15

the says we'll know the was on this

17:18

for cause he's very very very moving the

17:20

about you're thinking on assisted dying and we

17:22

talked about your treatment and entering would have

17:24

us where she wrote have a dream is

17:26

going and you get that episode by the

17:28

way of existence is gone through the back

17:30

catalogue it's it's available right you get first

17:32

one was your horrible into the ah so

17:35

his army there's been a few us to

17:37

the. One that does shed new the make

17:39

me. Blush. is

17:41

one i did we richard branson and you

17:43

know these big and she's really big tv

17:45

ensues be a when you do election ensues

17:47

with the leaders you know you spend a

17:50

huge amount of time preparing i'd have done

17:52

all of that research at one of the

17:54

things it comes a time and time again

17:56

is that sir richard branson to do these

17:58

marketing stunts in the

18:00

80s and 90s, often with glamorous

18:02

and scantily clad women in

18:04

a way that people looking at them now feel

18:07

rather uncomfortable with. And interestingly,

18:09

he feels rather uncomfortable with. And just to

18:11

be clear, I don't have any evidence of

18:13

anything much more serious. I don't

18:15

want to hint at or suggest that there's anything

18:17

much more serious going on. But I do think

18:20

that you've got to go there with these interviews,

18:22

big powerful figures. And therefore I felt I had

18:24

to ask him a rather uncomfortable question. And you've

18:26

got to be very careful in how you calibrate

18:28

this stuff, because you know, do you have specific

18:31

evidence? What accusations are you making and so forth?

18:33

I spoke to Ed Poll about how to ask

18:35

something that was legally and editorially okay. Ed Poll,

18:37

they had like the kind of police force

18:39

inside the BBC. Yeah, they're the guys who

18:42

advise us on the legality, political

18:44

balance. It's not a person, people

18:46

think Ed Poll is an editorial

18:48

policy, it's a unit. And anyway,

18:50

we got to a place with

18:52

Sir Richard, which I was comfortable

18:54

with editorially. But my God, it was

18:56

awkward. And good as me, he hated

18:58

it. Because you were such a

19:00

powerful figure in such a glamorous industry. And in

19:02

recent years, a lot of men have

19:05

reexamined their behaviour toward women and wondered if they

19:07

went too far. Have you have you thought about

19:09

that? No,

19:11

I don't. Look, I don't think I've

19:13

ever done anything with

19:15

you know, anyway, I just slightly resent the question,

19:17

to be honest. They

19:19

if you do mind. Because I've

19:23

never ever done anything that

19:26

would make any woman feel

19:28

uncomfortable. It wasn't marketing campaigns,

19:30

you know, this was yeah,

19:33

I mean, it was

19:36

it was just having a fun, you know,

19:38

a fun photograph photo opportunity for newspapers, he

19:40

lapped it up. And that was that we

19:42

didn't have the internet. That was the way

19:45

we got ourselves. You know, got version that

19:47

Atlantic known. In fairness to

19:49

Sir Richard, who by the way, though he's a

19:51

glamorous and outspoken larger than I figured he's a

19:53

very awkward, very shy interviewee,

19:55

partly related to his dyslexia

19:58

the way he describes it. He's a very, very kind of difficult

20:00

person to interview. Anyway, he absolutely hated that and

20:02

the funny thing is there were also some pretty

20:04

awkward questions about tax avoidance. So I followed up

20:06

with something which as you can hear he didn't

20:09

enjoy very much with another thing which he really

20:11

really didn't enjoy. In fairness to him, total fairness

20:13

to him, we had a little break afterwards and

20:15

came back and did another sequence and he apologized

20:17

and I respect him for that. Are

20:19

you blushing because you got it wrong or just

20:22

because it was fantastically awkward at the

20:24

moment? Just so awkward. It's just a

20:26

weird thing. Something about our job imposes

20:29

on us a duty to ask really

20:31

awkward questions and there's times when that

20:34

feels fine. Actually on the radio often it

20:36

can feel completely fine when they're kind of

20:38

slightly distant. Doing it in person is just...

20:41

It makes you feel queasy and it's not what most people do. What

20:43

about you Nick? You've had a few interviews that have gone to the

20:46

right. Well the weird thing about... I've got all sorts of interviews where

20:48

I thought I didn't quite get that right but

20:50

I don't blush thinking about it. I just

20:53

get cross with myself. I didn't choose my

20:55

words carefully or I interrupted too much or

20:57

I didn't ask this or that question. But

20:59

what actually makes me blush is

21:01

sort of trivial in a way but is

21:03

reflective of what we have to do as well. Which

21:05

is I was told that we were going to interview

21:07

this great amazing

21:09

child. Little four year

21:11

old Susie McCash had picked

21:13

up the phone when her

21:16

mother Rowena had collapsed on the

21:18

floor and she knew

21:20

her mother had a medical condition. And she

21:22

had the presence of mind to ring

21:24

999, explain what had happened, give

21:27

her a dress and stay on the

21:29

phone to give more information. And

21:31

I was going to interview this

21:34

lovely story. But Susie

21:36

being four and she wasn't in front of me, she

21:38

was down the line. Was

21:40

kind of shy and a bit monosyllabic. So

21:43

I was just trying to draw things out because I knew what

21:45

the listener wants to do. It's either a four year old rather

21:47

than just to hear the mum. And

21:50

I start talking about the ambulance arriving and

21:52

she sort of says yes, no. And

21:55

even when asked open questions, she sort of

21:57

says things. So trying to get

21:59

Susie. to talk. I kind

22:01

of go into baby talk a

22:03

bit like I used to have my own kids

22:06

when they were talking. You

22:08

sounded very very calm Susie.

22:11

You sounded really like you knew what you were

22:13

doing. Did

22:15

you know what you were doing? Yes. Did

22:20

you get to see the Nenals

22:22

being made and the lights flashing?

22:25

Yes. Oh

22:27

that must have been exciting.

22:29

Did you press the button to put the

22:31

sirens on? Yes I did. So Susie's having

22:34

fun at my expense. That

22:39

edit is really generous to me because

22:41

what actually happened I think we've lost the

22:43

original was when I said

22:45

the Nenals there was a pause and then Susie

22:47

goes to her mum. What

22:49

are the Nenals? Who

22:53

is this idiot? Who's talking

22:55

to me? It's what we used to call the sirens. Anytime

22:59

you want to relive your childcare Nick

23:01

and come around and look after my

23:04

thousands of children you're very welcome to do your Nino

23:06

impression. I will give you one other moment which makes

23:08

me blush a lot. It

23:10

was a discussion rather than an interview. One

23:14

woman academic is in the studio, another

23:16

woman academic is down the line in Edinburgh.

23:19

It matters that they're both women. Because

23:22

I ask a

23:24

question of the woman from

23:28

London and I'm looking at

23:30

a woman in London and she

23:32

doesn't talk and the person in my headphone

23:34

starts talking and then I ask a

23:36

question of the woman in Edinburgh and the woman

23:38

who's sitting up is me in

23:40

London starts talking and I'm increasingly

23:43

baffled about what's going on. They've

23:45

got different names, they're

23:47

there for different reasons, they have different stories to

23:49

tell so all my questions are completely jumbled up

23:52

and I do this about three or four times

23:54

before a producer says in my ear the

23:57

woman from Edinburgh happens to be in London, the woman

23:59

from and spit Edinburgh. And

24:04

it's like, why didn't you tell me?

24:06

Oh, dear. That was live. You're

24:08

not blaming the producers, I have. That was live. Former

24:10

producer blames the producers. Anyway, Luke, thank you so much,

24:12

Esther, for that marvelous question. And yeah,

24:14

again, thank you so much for that incredibly

24:16

powerful interview that we did a

24:19

few months ago. As Nick says,

24:21

if you've not listened to it, listen back

24:23

on BBC Sounds. It's all there. And

24:26

also stay listening for Stephen Fry.

24:31

Right. Let's

24:33

keep going with those questions. Here's Ross in

24:36

Dorset. Hi, good morning. This podcast has been

24:38

a bit of a gateway vlog to me,

24:40

particularly after you interviewed us to Campbell's and

24:42

now listening to his one, listening to America's

24:44

and Newscast. So, but don't

24:46

worry, I won't be abandoning you. It's really

24:48

appreciated. But thank you for introducing me to this format.

24:51

It did occur to me, I wonder if it's the antidote

24:53

to rolling news. Oh, my. I've

24:55

got a lot to say about this. How

24:59

long we got, Tom, pod squad? Go on, Nick,

25:01

you go before I unleash. I don't know what

25:03

you're going to say. You're going to

25:05

say, I've got a thesis. By the way, the fact that

25:08

you've been rapping me for having a thesis is so boring.

25:10

No, I'm not going to say news is so boring. I'm

25:12

going to say the fact that you've been giving me such

25:14

a hard time in my absence for having

25:17

a thesis about everything which ends up with being three points. Well,

25:19

I have got a thesis here. Ross,

25:21

thank you very much indeed. I do think it's

25:23

something of an antidote to rolling news. There's a

25:25

whole separate part of this, which is really not

25:27

the people that we're interviewing, the politicians, for instance,

25:30

are more attracted to podcasts because they think of it as a more fun place

25:32

to go. That's

25:34

a whole different world. Yes, I do think of

25:36

it as an antidote to rolling news. When

25:38

I was off recently for a little while thinking

25:40

about my young family, I had a very different relationship with the

25:42

news. And I

25:45

would say I had a much more healthy relationship with

25:47

the news. When you

25:49

do the Today programme as your main

25:51

job, it's an incredible privilege. You're surrounded

25:54

by truly, truly brilliant people. But

25:56

you do have to fill your head, usually

25:58

your sleep-deprived head. with a

26:01

huge amount of perishable information. And

26:03

on this story about William Ragg, the Tory

26:06

MP who sent pictures, it's a honey trap

26:08

story. And on the Angela Rayner text

26:10

story about her council house, two stories that really

26:12

matter. You know what I did, Nick? I didn't

26:14

follow the ins and outs of it every single

26:16

day. I didn't look at which Tory MP had

26:18

tweeted about Ragg and what such and such person

26:20

had said about Angela Rayner. What I did is

26:22

I read books and

26:25

I watched sport and I changed nappies.

26:27

And on the Sunday, I just

26:30

read a slightly longer piece about it, which

26:32

told me all that I needed to know.

26:34

And I felt fully informed, fully informed. And

26:36

so rather than having that rolling news,

26:38

I don't want to talk too much against the

26:40

Today programme, which, you know, I'm very proud to

26:42

be part of. But I do think lots of

26:44

people, especially when we know that news fatigue is

26:46

on the rise, do see podcasts as

26:48

an antidote to rolling news. Well,

26:51

yes. There we go. Here we

26:53

go. Come on. Let's have a dust out.

26:55

No, as Louisa Theodiser predicted,

26:57

I would say, why

27:00

do you need an antidote? I mean, do

27:02

both. Compliment, actually. Compliment. You

27:05

know, you don't need to do one or the other.

27:07

The thing I always say about my chums

27:09

who make podcasts, often for other outlets, is

27:12

they can only do them because they've been

27:14

listening to the Today programme the number of

27:16

times on the leading commercial podcasts,

27:18

including Alastair Campbell's. I

27:21

know. To his credit, he

27:24

often gives us credit. That's why I'm

27:26

very happy to give credit to the rest of

27:28

his politics. They do the same on political currency,

27:30

which George Osborne will say, I was listening to.

27:33

They can only do the long

27:36

reflective, the considered, because they have

27:38

themselves, or certainly the producers, but

27:40

often themselves, been listening to

27:43

news. You

27:45

need to do it. You need to hear those

27:47

big interviews. You need to hear the analysis. You

27:49

need to hear the correspondence around

27:51

the world. I

27:53

love podcasts too. They're

27:56

more relaxing to listen to. They're more

27:58

reflective, often they can go deeper. that's

28:00

what we try and do on the Today podcast. But

28:03

if you want to know, which lots of

28:05

people do, what's happening now? What might be

28:07

about to happen now? What's the key question

28:10

that someone should answer? You've got to

28:12

listen to the Daily News program because

28:14

they're nice cosy chads on a podcast

28:16

sofa and I'm talking to you from

28:18

a very comfortable podcast studio with our

28:20

branded mugs and our potplants and our

28:23

cushions is no substitute

28:26

for having the guy or gal in the

28:28

chair opposite you and saying,

28:30

today people need an answer. Are

28:32

you giving Israel weapons? Are you

28:35

not giving Israel weapons? Are

28:37

you apologizing for what you did? Are

28:39

you not apologizing? All of that might

28:41

well be true and that, annoyingly,

28:44

I agree with you that it's not an antidote.

28:46

So that's the one bit of Ross's question, the

28:48

central word, I guess, which I would take issue

28:51

with. But I'd ask you

28:53

a secondary question just to throw it back to you,

28:55

which is that you're a news junkie. I wasn't.

28:58

I used to work in current affairs. You're

29:00

a news junkie now. I know you do.

29:02

Now, you're a big time news junkie and

29:05

I would ask, A, what's a healthier relationship

29:07

with news and B, what are more people

29:09

choosing? And I think, you know, as you

29:11

and I have talked about, if you look

29:13

at that Reuters report into the state of

29:15

digital news and so on, the big trend

29:18

is news fatigue is rising. Lots of people

29:20

are saying they feel saturated, are saying there's

29:22

too much, it's too negative, whatever it might

29:24

be. And I think Ross is

29:26

alluding to something, which is that a

29:29

lot of people do prefer a different pace of

29:31

news. And I just think that that, I don't

29:33

want to be that guy says that raises questions. I hate it when

29:36

people say that. But I do think that that changes

29:38

the role of daily news.

29:40

And I do think you and I have to

29:42

be extremely mindful of

29:45

the fact that there are lots of

29:47

people for whom daily news is getting

29:50

harder to stomach. They're listening to

29:52

it anyway. You see, I don't buy this. They're

29:55

getting it on their phone. The difference is

29:58

the Today program when I grew up, that was was

30:00

the only place you could find out what was

30:02

happening in the morning at that time. And when

30:04

I grew up, there wasn't even telly on in

30:06

the morning. The big dramatic change

30:08

is that most people get up and they do

30:10

look at the news, but they look at it

30:12

on their phone. It might be

30:15

news curated by the BBC or one of the big

30:17

news suppliers. It might be what their mates have sent

30:19

them or what they see on a social

30:21

media site, but they do look at

30:23

the news. Now given

30:26

that they've got those headlines, a

30:28

morning news programme like the Today Bro has to add value.

30:30

There's no use just telling them what's going on. They can

30:32

find that through a quick flick at a

30:34

screen. But there's a separate

30:36

thing, I think, which is given that we

30:39

can get it all the time on our

30:41

phone, on social media, on a rolling news

30:43

channel, as well as on the traditional news

30:45

programmes like Today, how

30:48

do we keep ourselves sane, but

30:50

not consume it all day and

30:53

not obsessing about it and not having

30:56

the space to pull back? So when I

30:58

was on holiday, yeah, I didn't listen, actually,

31:01

I chose and that's quite rare for me as

31:03

a news junkie, not to

31:05

listen that I could have done easily given the internet wherever

31:07

you are in the world. It's perfectly possible to do that.

31:10

And I relaxed as a result, but I

31:12

missed it as well. I just think that lots and

31:14

lots of people are deciding that a

31:16

healthier relationship with the news is

31:19

to avoid rolling news. That's one point that

31:21

more people are deciding that because of news fatigue, etc. But

31:24

the second point is just as journalists for

31:26

us, is it right that

31:28

we are in it in the weeds

31:30

of incremental development all day every day?

31:32

Or should we more often, even

31:34

on daily programmes, zoom

31:37

out, look at the trends rather

31:39

than the events? I think we do

31:41

do most of the events. We do agree, have we?

31:43

We can do both. Don't pretend to agree with me.

31:45

We can do both. Can we? Of

31:47

course you can. Yeah, of course you can. I think we should. I

31:50

think we do. If you listen to Three Hours of the Day programme, but you

31:52

present Three Hours of the Day programme, you will get

31:55

big, thoughtful items about

31:57

the future. We can discuss. of

32:00

the balance should there be more one than less of

32:02

the other. I think you said that we

32:04

agree with each other. Actually I think we disagree.

32:06

But anyway, that's good. We agree on one

32:08

bit. We want productive disagreement

32:10

here. Let's hear from someone else, shall we?

32:13

Maybe a slightly famous person, a friend of

32:15

the Pod Squad and a friend of yours.

32:17

This chap's called Stephen. Hello

32:19

young Emil and hello young, slightly

32:21

less young Nick. This

32:23

is Stephen Fry with a question

32:25

for you. I still don't really

32:27

believe that people understand quite how

32:29

imminent a threat AI

32:31

is. A threat and indeed

32:34

a promise. I would say chilling and

32:36

thrilling. I feel the human

32:38

family is sitting on a beach

32:40

with their books to the ocean

32:42

while a tsunami is preparing to

32:44

engulf them. They're playing beach cricket

32:46

and making stone castles. And

32:48

I wondered if you could try a few

32:51

things to persuade your listeners of

32:53

how important this is. Maybe for example, do

32:55

a whole section which is in fact written

32:57

by AI and another section

32:59

which you've written and ask people to

33:02

determine which they think is AI and

33:04

which is you. And you

33:06

could go to one of those sites

33:08

and have one of your voices synthesized

33:10

and again see if you can tell

33:13

the difference because it's getting very sophisticated.

33:15

I know a lot of people in

33:17

the business are fully across this, but

33:21

in the people I meet when I show them

33:23

things and demonstrate them things

33:25

that generative and other forms of AI

33:27

can do, they're still absolutely

33:29

gobsmacked and unaware of what's

33:32

happening. So I think that's something you

33:34

could possibly work on. All right, lots

33:36

of love. Stephen has given us

33:39

our homework and you know what? I've

33:41

already begun. So this morning

33:44

I asked chat GPT

33:47

to write the opening for this

33:49

podcast in my style and in

33:51

your style. Hello

33:54

and welcome to the today podcast. It says

33:56

your weekly dose of news analysis and a

33:58

healthy dose of banter. I really

34:00

say that. I'm Nick Robinson and joining

34:03

me today is the one and only

34:05

Amal Rajan. Ah

34:07

good to be back Nick. It feels like I've been away

34:09

for ages. How did they know? How does

34:11

chat GPT know? I mean that's pretty, that's

34:13

pretty good isn't it? I think I might

34:16

have said after you've been away for a

34:18

few weeks. I love this bit that it

34:20

wrote for you. It says,

34:23

I ask you about being off for a while

34:26

and you say, oh you know Nick, just your

34:28

typical stroll in the park, if

34:30

by park you mean chasing after

34:32

four little whirlwinds of chaos, and

34:35

by stroll you mean trying not

34:37

to lose my sanity. Oh

34:40

my days. I

34:42

mean that is alarming and disarming

34:44

you know, but we've got to do better

34:47

to answer Stephen's question. That is just the

34:49

surface of it. You've now really,

34:52

really got me engaged. So instead

34:54

of just doing it at the end of

34:56

this little Q&A, the question and answer,

34:58

we're going to come back to this properly. Yep. We're going

35:00

to take up the Fry Challenge. We've got to do the

35:03

Fry Challenge like that. We could call it a fry up.

35:05

Yeah we've got to do it. I mean look, I've been

35:07

banging on about this for far too long. This is I

35:09

think the great story of our

35:11

times and we should come back to it properly. And

35:13

we should probably do an episode on it. Maybe the

35:15

week of the local elections or well let's see. Who

35:17

should we get? Nick Clegg? Nick

35:20

Clegg, fully enough. I

35:22

messaged him the other day about this.

35:25

Well I said, I do, he got a big speech coming

35:28

up. Now he's a big boss

35:30

at Meta, the owner of Facebook. And

35:32

I said, we haven't talked for ages.

35:35

It'd be good to get you on for an interview.

35:37

Maybe we can have lunch to chat about it. And

35:39

I've got to reply along the lines of, lunch sounds

35:41

good. Good

35:45

old Nick Clegg. That is a nice note to

35:47

leave. But we'll do our best to persuade him.

35:50

Yeah it'll be great to get with it. I

35:52

mean in fairness he did come on that day

35:54

that I did the today program from Bletchley Park

35:56

for an AI safety summit. So it's your fault

35:58

that he doesn't want to come on again? might

36:00

work. I think it's been quite a hard time

36:02

actually. Stephen, just to say, Stephen, you're absolutely right.

36:04

Thank you for the question. We're going to come

36:07

back to it in a proper

36:09

full on episode at some point. Broadly speaking,

36:11

I think the whole of British journalism is

36:13

undercooked. In terms of the British public, my

36:15

goodness, I don't mean this in

36:17

a patronizing way, but yes, most people do

36:20

not have the faintest idea what generative AI

36:22

is capable of and the impact on elections

36:24

could be awful. And here is my question

36:26

for next time. You and I do questions

36:29

and answers. How do

36:31

you do daily journalism that

36:33

deals with enormous trends? Because you got every

36:35

week, let alone every day say, oh, by

36:38

the way, AI is big, because that's not

36:40

news. That's the subject of

36:42

current affairs programs. The challenge that I think in

36:44

a way you're setting for the

36:46

program you and I do is our day

36:48

job. How do you do

36:50

the great big long trends, AI,

36:53

climate change, the

36:56

threat posed by social media to

36:58

young lives, birth rates, all these things.

37:00

How do you do them in

37:02

a daily program that by its nature

37:04

is trying to say to you, this

37:06

is what's new since you went to

37:09

bed? That question that you pose has

37:11

been the central question in my journalistic career. As

37:14

the editor of a daily newspaper, as the

37:16

person who led the BBC's coverage of media

37:18

and global technology as media editor of the

37:20

BBC, I have tried to shift

37:23

the balance from events to

37:25

trends. And it's hard, and

37:27

I'm sure I've got it wrong repeatedly, but I

37:29

do think that we live in an era and

37:31

at a time, and it's why this podcast is

37:34

frankly so exciting to do, where these mega trends

37:36

are not only enormous, but

37:38

are reshaping our world. So a shift of the

37:40

balance is what I'm campaigning for. We want your

37:42

views on this. We want your questions. You may

37:44

even have suggestions about how we do that. Remember

37:47

what you do is you send us a voice

37:49

note to WhatsApp plus 443301234346. And

37:55

forgive me doing this, because some of you go,

37:57

everybody knows how to send a voice They

38:00

don't actually, lots of people only send text

38:02

messages on WhatsApp. There's

38:04

a little thing that looks like a microphone in

38:06

that box where you type your message, you

38:09

hold it down or slide

38:12

it up. Slide it up, slide it up.

38:14

And that basically turns the microphone on. You

38:16

record something to us, you tell

38:18

us your question and who you are and then

38:20

you send it like any other water. Yep, that

38:23

number again is plus four four three three oh

38:25

one two three four three four

38:27

six and if you can't remember it just search for

38:29

the Today Podcast wherever you get your podcast click on

38:31

any of them and it's always going

38:33

to be in that episode's description. Now you're going to

38:35

be back on Thursday Nick, I'm off to ask

38:38

chat GPT how to change a nappy. Or

38:41

whether or not it could in fact change a nappy,

38:43

that's the whole next level is when it's not changing

38:45

the nappy. That would be helpful. And I would be

38:47

more than happy about AI doing that, my goodness. But

38:49

to make sure you never miss an episode just do

38:51

us a favor and hit subscribe. If you hit that

38:53

button which is on BBC Sounds, you

38:55

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38:58

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39:00

You don't have to go searching for it,

39:02

it will magically appear in your personalized section

39:04

of BBC Sounds. And

39:07

a bit like Ross, you might go from someone who

39:10

doesn't really know what they are and doesn't really listen

39:12

to them. Thanks for

39:14

listening. See you soon, bye. NewsCast is the

39:16

unscripted chat behind

39:19

the headlines.

39:25

It's informed but informal. We

39:27

pick the day's top stories and we

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find experts who can really dig into

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We sometimes literally run around the

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Or go to amazon.com/news ad free.

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That's amazon.com/news ad free to catch up

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