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Yahoo finance.com, the number

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one financial destination, Yahoo

1:04

finance.com. Hello,

1:09

I'm Matt Kelly. And I'm Matt D'Ancona.

1:11

And this is the all new two

1:13

mattes for the week ending Friday, the

1:15

10th of May. Now with disagreements, it

1:17

says here. Now without any disagreements. We

1:19

do. We don't fall out, but we do have a

1:21

good... It's not domestic. No, no, no. We didn't have

1:24

to call the rozzers, but I really enjoyed it, actually.

1:26

I think it's... I think you should be more of

1:28

it. And I think you're right. We... Conversations

1:31

like the one that is about to follow

1:33

are absolutely essential, I think. And they

1:35

are too few in number because politeness

1:39

is an overrated virtue sometimes.

1:41

Fuck off. Fuck off. Go

1:43

fuck yourself. And

1:46

there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, the founder of

1:48

the New European. What did

1:50

we argue about? We

1:53

argued about Gaza and then we agreed

1:55

cloyingly about Withnall and I. We did.

1:57

It was like... It was like... up

2:00

broadcasting. Well

2:03

I hope you guys enjoy it. This is the

2:05

2 Matt, episode 44. Thank you for listening. Thank

2:08

you. So

2:28

Matt, what are we talking about this week? Well there's lots

2:30

on but I've been dwelling,

2:32

brooding even, upon a point you

2:35

made on a previous podcast about

2:38

the whole Gaza conflict. Being

2:40

like a pebble or

2:43

a rock that sort of

2:45

hit the water and sent ripples literally

2:47

everywhere. And that in turn

2:49

reminded me of the New Yorker writer Dexter

2:51

Filkins book, The Forever War about

2:54

Afghanistan and Iraq. But it's

2:56

sort of like Gaza is turning out very,

2:58

you know, in very short order, seven months

3:01

to be the everywhere war. And

3:03

it, you know, I thought it'd be interesting to talk

3:05

about the way. I mean there's lots

3:07

we can say about what's going

3:10

on specifically this week in terms of

3:12

the conflict itself but also how

3:14

it's spread everywhere in the culture. And

3:17

I thought one of the, because this is the

3:19

week of the Eurovision Song Contest and we're recording

3:21

this on Thursday, which is the night of the

3:23

second semi final. A lot of

3:26

the, most

3:29

of the oxygen into

3:31

this traditionally sort of fun

3:33

and jolly occasion has been

3:36

sucked up by the fact that Israel

3:38

is competing as it often does. It's

3:40

actually hosted it three times. And

3:43

the entrant is

3:45

a singer, 20 year old singer called Eden

3:48

Golden. And I thought it might be interesting

3:50

to just take a clip of a interview

3:53

she did with ITV news, giving a taste

3:55

of what it's like to

3:57

be a Eurovision Song Contest contestant.

4:00

Yes. Suddenly in the middle of

4:02

this. There's

4:04

a lot of people saying

4:06

that you shouldn't be here. How do you

4:08

take that? People can say whatever

4:10

they want. They have a right to speak

4:12

their mind, speak their heart. I'm

4:15

focusing on my mission and on the good

4:17

and on the fact that we are united

4:19

here by music. I'm a singer. That's the

4:21

entire point. I'm not everything else.

4:23

I'm a singer. I

4:26

create music. So you get

4:28

a taste of it, I guess. I

4:31

mean, she's not right in the sense

4:33

that they're not united by music. Witness

4:35

the fact that... When

4:37

I read this, I was really blown away that

4:39

the head of Shin Bet, which is the tough

4:42

guy, security agency, the Israeli security

4:45

agency, Ronan Barr, has actually been

4:47

to see the site in Malmö. And

4:51

then in terms of being united, well,

4:53

we've already had the wonderfully

4:55

named Irish contestant Bambi Sugg, who

4:57

I think kind

5:00

of... I wanted to win

5:02

already, right? Yeah. Told

5:04

reporters that it's been forced to change.

5:06

She's got a subliminal message on various

5:10

messages written on her face

5:12

and leg in an ancient Irish language, which

5:14

read ceasefire and freedom for Palestine. And they

5:16

were talking about Khanabat and... And the Israeli

5:18

contestant, she's had to change the list. She

5:21

had a change, originally called

5:23

not to subtly October rain. I

5:25

think you can all guess what that was about.

5:27

And then a Swedish singer who took part in

5:29

one of the events this week, because it's certainly

5:31

to a big jamboree now, the Eurovision Song Contest

5:34

appeared on stage with his wrist wrapped

5:36

in a kafir, a sort of Palestinian symbol.

5:38

So that's got him into trouble. And

5:41

Oli Olegzander, who will be in the

5:43

final, because he's the British... He's the

5:45

British contestant and he gets in... I

5:47

didn't know this, the

5:50

British contestant gets in automatically. What like

5:52

this? We've got a security council. There

5:54

is a Eurovision security council, right?

5:57

So Oli Olegzander is going to compete

5:59

on Saturday. But he's been

6:01

under huge pressure from groups like Queers

6:03

to Palestine to withdraw and has spoken

6:05

out about you know Similar

6:07

sort of line about we're here to do

6:10

music Yeah, but I guess the reason that

6:12

it may be an odd way in but it

6:15

did occur to me I propose your remark

6:17

of the stone falling into the yeah and

6:19

the ripples and the ripples that that you

6:22

know When we were

6:24

kind of did our first podcast after October the

6:26

7th and this sort of shell-shopped You

6:28

know what just wondering where it was going. Yeah,

6:31

I mean it was obviously something new

6:33

something terrible. We Correctly

6:35

anticipated that the Israeli retaliation would be

6:37

you know a terrible slaughter and it

6:39

has been I Don't

6:41

think either of us sort of guess that we'd

6:44

be sitting here in May talking about the impact

6:46

of the conflict on the revision song contest it

6:48

has been an absolutely incredible

6:51

After effect hasn't it? Yes, it has

6:53

in every regard and at every level

6:55

the fact that you know We've we've

6:58

seen this and we can talk about

7:00

the horrific scale of the retribution

7:03

that's been visited Yeah, yeah, Gaza

7:05

the awful trauma that the Israelis are still

7:08

going through with yeah any hostages still missing

7:10

You know that was I guess kind of

7:12

the predictable side of yes I mean, I

7:15

think we we we would have

7:17

said and I think we did say, you know Benjamin

7:19

Netanyahu not a great person to

7:21

have it at the helm in

7:23

a crisis like this. Yeah, Hamas

7:26

you know Brutally committed

7:29

to a kind of human sacrifice Strategy

7:32

where civilians were packed into

7:35

you know, very heavily populated areas which

7:37

would be targets This

7:39

was not going to go well I think the kind of the

7:41

kind of military combat side of things

7:44

we would perhaps have yeah predicted But

7:46

but there's a sort of cultural dimension

7:48

to this which is political as well

7:50

But it's but it's the way that

7:52

it's seeped into the bones

7:54

of the entire kind of global

7:56

culture I mean just Looking

7:59

at local election. In and people

8:01

are still scouring the local election

8:03

results for meaning in one sense

8:06

you know and and you have

8:08

a lead City councilor cool with

8:10

an alley a green counsellor and

8:12

he asked he was elected in

8:15

the gets in and Harehills warden

8:17

lead said leads said Allah Akbar

8:19

and declared the. That

8:22

that his victory a win for the

8:24

people of Gaza and then of course

8:26

people started doing social media of theology

8:28

on him and found the. On the

8:30

day of or whatever the seventh he had

8:32

Ali had said on social media the Palestinians

8:35

had the right to fight back on the

8:37

I itself so he at without going into

8:39

the rights and wrongs of it and either

8:41

heat the point has been made. Nothing this

8:43

is illegitimate. The Allah Akbar these although we're

8:45

we've become used to it as a sort

8:48

of in in the context of suicide, terrorists,

8:50

zipper it's system It just means God is

8:52

great of rides rights as as I I

8:54

think in Morocco the the web be rimmer

8:56

of go through the day because every prayer

8:58

right channel that goes rights. Dot Allah Akbar

9:00

I you know so I'd I'd I'd I thought that

9:03

I'm getting was had by that. Yes saying it's a

9:05

win for the people of Gaza to seems to me.

9:07

On true but. You. Know he's

9:09

entitled. It seems to me to say

9:12

that's but what? What I'm I'm I'm

9:14

I'm Did you know without an insensitive

9:16

weeds the rights and wrongs. I think

9:18

it is interesting that this is now.

9:21

Something of an issue for labour. I mean, Is

9:25

it was interesting that independent candidates

9:27

may net gains of ninety three

9:29

seats and and you know that

9:31

is losing control over the place

9:33

like Oldham, yes to the first

9:35

time in thirteen years there is

9:37

that there is a. There

9:39

is a backlash. I think there

9:42

are two two elements or layers

9:44

of that backlash that they need

9:46

to worry about Very intensely Born

9:49

is the obvious the Muslim Plaza

9:51

were increasingly they are being. Doesn't

9:53

this association with Labour because of

9:56

the policy of yeah twinning with

9:58

with with soon next. kind of policy

10:01

with Israel, which you can say whatever you like,

10:03

you know, but Starma hasn't gone out on a

10:05

limb on it, which is what they want him

10:07

to do. They haven't broken bipartisanship, put it that

10:09

way. The other layer, which I find much

10:12

more interesting, is the generational

10:14

layer. Yeah. And the fact

10:16

that young people have adopted this cause. And

10:19

I think that leaves us nice segue,

10:21

as we have learned to say, onto

10:24

campuses. And we've

10:26

talked a bit about America and we should

10:29

perhaps talk a bit more about what's been

10:31

going on on campuses. But it's interesting that

10:33

the protests have now spread

10:35

in not on as big

10:37

a scale as they have in America, but

10:39

to the UK

10:42

and to Ireland, where

10:44

in Trinity College Dublin, today,

10:47

Thursday, the university authorities

10:49

have agreed to divest from Israel. I haven't seen

10:51

that, right? So, you know, that's quite a big

10:53

moment. On

10:55

the mainland, you've got 100 students storming the

10:57

library of goldsmiths in London. You've

11:01

got students at the University of Edinburgh beginning

11:03

a hunger strike. You've

11:05

got 14 or 15 encampments, not

11:08

on the scale of America, but it's real

11:10

and it's happening. And

11:12

today, Thursday, Rishi Sunak met university

11:15

vice chancellors to talk about

11:17

antisemitism on campuses. So,

11:21

you know, it's now a clear

11:23

and present issue in British

11:25

higher education as well as American higher education. Just

11:27

to dot the eyes, the thing they want when

11:29

you speak about the divestment from Israel. Yes, sorry,

11:32

I should have said that. There is a

11:34

comprehensive list, isn't there, of companies that

11:37

are active in Israel and they want people to back away

11:39

from them. Universities in this country don't

11:41

have anything like the wealth that universities

11:43

in America do, but to the extent that they do

11:45

and they invest, you know, there are companies

11:48

that are directly invested

11:50

in Israel or

11:52

indirectly. And so that is has

11:54

always been a big I mean, long before

11:57

October the 7th and this Conflict.

12:00

Been it a demand if pro

12:02

Palestinian students know that they not

12:04

the universe is not invest in

12:06

Israel? Yes but this is this

12:08

has become much more heated and

12:10

say that that that that and

12:12

then there's the. That

12:15

that the Jewish is Jewish students

12:17

saying and in ways formal or

12:19

informal in. oh okay, A What

12:21

has a right to protest an

12:23

hour or I? As you know,

12:25

I didn't ferociously believe in that

12:27

right, but at the same time

12:29

didn't have the right not to

12:31

be harassed on campus. So and

12:34

this is where it gets. It

12:36

gets trixie because. What

12:39

the language means, he means

12:41

different things to different people.

12:44

So. To. Do It

12:46

is Globalized Intifada. Means.

12:49

Kilo teams road out yet as the

12:51

debates on what is on his them.

12:54

Can easily tit into the and anti

12:56

semitic throat that Jews do not have

12:59

the right selfsame nation in their own

13:01

state and and in a more more

13:03

more. Said. Of. Straightforwardly

13:06

that that that the incidences of

13:08

plotting outposts, juri students feeling that

13:10

com were symbols of that Jewishness

13:13

on campus and that they're being

13:15

shouted Than and saunders you know

13:17

this is this is it. This

13:20

is a very fraught environment and

13:22

it. It. Speaks to a

13:24

perception. I think that a lot

13:27

of. Progressive. Students

13:29

in this country and in America

13:31

think that the foundation stated of

13:33

is really nice. Forty Eight was

13:36

a great a historic injustice and

13:38

the holocaust Yes, and that is

13:40

obviously the festival. Contestable

13:43

but also it it

13:45

it creates skip I.

13:48

I'm conflicted because I, I, I

13:50

don't like the line that. Is

13:53

this and be protests The said because I

13:55

in a although I've. Sort.

13:57

of says some pro israel things absolutely

14:00

a hundred percent believe in

14:03

the idea of the university, the idea

14:05

that it should be a place of

14:07

free speech, free assembly. If you don't

14:09

like what Israel's doing in Gaza, have

14:11

your encampment, say things, speak up, that's

14:13

the point of being, you know. But

14:15

at the same time, I want

14:17

Jewish students to be able to go

14:20

about their business. So one thing that

14:22

I heard recently, which I suddenly

14:25

fell into sympathy with this young

14:27

woman who was an American student,

14:29

can't remember her name, can't

14:31

remember which university, I think it was Columbia,

14:34

but she was describing, she was on the

14:36

Palestinian side and she was describing what

14:39

they wanted and the efforts that they were taking on

14:41

the campus and why they were so passionate about it.

14:44

And this question was raised about

14:46

the Jewish students and she said,

14:49

well, some of my fellow

14:51

students confuse discomfort

14:53

with harassment. Yeah.

14:56

And I did think, and of

14:58

course, like everything, there's a spectrum here

15:00

and like everything in this row, nothing

15:02

is black and white, nothing is

15:05

clear. But I did think there

15:07

is on both sides a tendency

15:10

to remember that words

15:12

are words, you know, and that an argument

15:14

can be had and there's nothing until someone

15:17

punches you in the face, then you shouldn't

15:19

really be afraid of. I

15:21

mean, yes, except that I think that we

15:25

can agree that when free speech tumbles

15:27

into sort of racial harassment, neither

15:30

of us are. Well, I don't think that

15:32

is that what I do. Well, you know,

15:34

what's happening? Yes. I mean, in Columbia, the

15:36

go back to Poland slogan, I think was

15:38

pretty clear. Yeah. I didn't see

15:40

that. Yeah. And we don't want no Zionists

15:42

here. And then a

15:44

particular leader who has been disciplined,

15:46

Kamani James, he said, Zionists don't

15:49

deserve to live. But I

15:51

think I think the other thing that Jewish students

15:53

want is a level playing

15:55

field because it is

15:58

nothing short of hilarious. to hear

16:01

pro-Palestinian processes on

16:03

American campuses talking about,

16:06

you know, basically man up

16:08

to Jewish students when every

16:10

other minority group on American

16:12

campuses has been declaring for

16:14

the last five years that they have a right

16:16

to a safe space, that they feel, you know,

16:19

physically and psychologically attacked

16:21

by the presence of

16:24

speakers on campus. I

16:26

mean, which is it? Is it that... Well, does it have

16:28

to be either or? Yes, yes,

16:30

yes, of course it does because, you know,

16:33

you have to... If you

16:36

incline, as I do, and I think you do,

16:38

to the... Everyone has to put up with a measure

16:40

of discomfort, right? Not everything

16:43

that is offensive is,

16:45

in fact, not much

16:47

that is offensive amounts to

16:49

harassment. Yes, but it

16:52

is incontestable for the last 10 to

16:55

15 years, especially in 2014,

16:57

and Jonathan Haidt, the

17:00

excellent American psychologist, has plotted

17:02

this brilliantly. You know,

17:04

American campuses have become zones

17:07

where all sorts of forms of

17:10

speech about trans, about

17:12

Black Lives Matter, about Me Too,

17:14

about, you know, have been simply

17:16

impossible because people say they don't

17:18

feel safe. Now, which

17:20

is it? You know, are we saying

17:22

that certain minorities are entitled

17:24

to protection from speech

17:27

and others aren't? Well, so

17:29

take the case of trans. The reason it's

17:31

impossible, isn't it, is what you

17:33

mean is it's impossible to argue

17:36

against it because that argument has been declared

17:38

the vote. Yes, and I also mean that

17:40

speakers have been no platform to it, and,

17:42

you know... And I

17:45

think that one of

17:47

the reasons that Jewish people feel sore

17:49

at the moment is that they've, particularly

17:51

on campuses, is that they've watched this

17:53

culture where free speech has

17:55

been dwindling, and then

17:57

suddenly it's, you know... It's

18:00

an explosion of trees. And it's sticks and

18:02

stones, you know. Now, you

18:05

have to choose, and I think American campuses

18:07

are a fork in the road here because

18:10

they have to decide, are

18:13

they going to be just basically

18:16

crushes for adults, right? Where

18:18

no one is exposed to ideas

18:20

and thoughts that they might find hurtful,

18:24

or are they going to be actually what

18:27

university should be, which is a place

18:29

of lively and

18:31

sometimes fierce debate. Not

18:35

harassment to racial hatred, not incitement to

18:38

racial hatred, or violence or vandalism. I'm

18:40

not talking about that. But

18:42

I think- But is your sympathy

18:45

then with, excluding the nutcases with

18:47

the Zionist, must I and all

18:49

of those nonsense, excluding those

18:51

extreme people, is

18:53

your sympathy with the protesters?

18:55

Yes, it is. The

18:58

protesters who are, to be

19:00

clear, the protesters who are saying, which

19:03

is not what I believe, the whole

19:05

Israel strategy is wrong and

19:07

should be stopped tomorrow and this

19:09

is all Israel's fault. They

19:13

have 100% the right to

19:15

say that. How does this compare

19:17

to Vietnam then? Well, Vietnam

19:19

is really interesting because I wrote

19:22

my column in this week's European about

19:24

this and the sort of echoes

19:26

of 1968. And they are there,

19:29

and they are there. And we might talk a little

19:31

bit about the implications for

19:33

Trump v. Biden. But

19:36

there are differences. And I think

19:38

one of the key differences was

19:40

that the anti-Vietnam protests were

19:42

protests against governments and

19:45

generals and the man. The

19:48

problem with this one is, of

19:51

course, they're also protests against governments, the

19:53

American government, the Israeli government and so

19:55

on. But they're also protests against so-called

19:58

Dionists, right? means

20:00

in practice, Eddie

20:03

from next door, you know, you

20:05

find yourself protesting against your fellow

20:07

students and that's different. And

20:10

it creates a different and more complicated

20:12

dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get

20:14

that. I get that. But again, it's the

20:18

I can't speak on behalf of

20:20

Palestinian protesters

20:23

or rather people protesting about

20:25

Palestine on American campuses.

20:27

But wouldn't they say or most of

20:29

them say, well, we're not most of

20:31

us aren't protesting about Zionism, per se.

20:34

We're protesting about this. They would. Mycocosm

20:36

of what they describe

20:39

as genocide. They would.

20:41

But here's here's the even

20:43

trickier psychological problem, which is

20:45

that very few racists admit

20:48

they're racists or say they're

20:50

racist. I mean, they say

20:53

that they're just opposing Zionism.

20:55

Well, Zionism is a very

20:58

complicated question. And,

21:00

you know, most and

21:03

specifically the international Holocaust, remember,

21:06

remember, its alliance definition

21:08

of anti-Semitism does include certain

21:11

forms of anti-Zionism as forms of anti-Semitism.

21:13

Now, you know, it is, of course,

21:16

you know, when you're on

21:19

the barricades in Princeton or in Columbia, you

21:21

don't say, yeah, I'm a racist. I'm an

21:23

anti-Zionist. Wouldn't they say, well, look at look

21:26

at what we're asking for, which is for

21:28

a divestment from investment. That's not all they're

21:30

asking for. Well, that's their core

21:33

demand of the universe. Well, because

21:35

the other stuff they're asking for is out of

21:37

their hands, isn't it? Yeah, but they are. But

21:39

hang on. They are actually. Well, let me finish

21:41

the let me. All right. They're

21:43

asking for divestment in the in

21:46

the government of in Israel

21:48

and the state of Israel to damage the

21:50

economy of Israel. Perfectly legitimate demand. Yes. And

21:53

it's got nothing to do necessarily with the

21:55

broader question. I think it will be idle

21:57

to deny. that

22:00

that is not what they spend most of their

22:02

days doing. What they spend most of their days

22:04

doing when they're in these encampments is

22:06

shouting about from the River to the Sea and

22:09

Zionism being, you know, an innately

22:11

racist endeavor. And you know,

22:14

I mean, I heard a student,

22:17

I think it was on the, you

22:19

know, the today program, I

22:21

believe from Columbia, talking about how, you know, basically,

22:24

Israel would just have to cease

22:26

to exist and the Jews would have

22:29

to go somewhere else. Now, really? Yeah. And

22:32

I could tell from the

22:34

woman's voice that she was a, certainly

22:38

considered herself to be a compassionate, kindly

22:40

and decent person. And the

22:42

problem is, and it does come back to

22:44

David Vadil's Jews Don't Count, is that in

22:47

the end, people do not see,

22:50

will not accept Jewish

22:52

people as a minority,

22:54

as an ethnic minority. And until you

22:56

get to that point, it's

22:59

impossible really to make

23:01

any progress. Yeah. Because,

23:03

I mean, there's a

23:05

whole, I mean, without going into the whole

23:08

detail, there's this whole idea that Jews are

23:10

essentially right, right, wrong, simply

23:12

incorrect, right? There's an

23:14

idea that they are powerful versus

23:16

the powerless. Well, maybe with respect

23:19

to Gaza, but, you know, Israel

23:21

is surrounded by hostile

23:23

countries, you know, and Jews have had

23:25

2000 years of persecution. So,

23:29

so, you know, but, you know, it's really

23:31

important because this has

23:33

slotted, and this, I think, is one of

23:35

the reasons why this, your

23:37

point about the spread of

23:40

this, is that it slots

23:42

in wrongly but

23:44

neatly into an incredibly prevalent

23:47

contemporary template, which

23:50

is powerful versus powerless,

23:52

oppressor versus oppressed. But

23:55

in, so, I agree

23:57

completely with that, with the, the

23:59

era of... that general narrative and obviously that's

24:01

the grounding of all of the prejudice

24:03

against the Jewish people.

24:06

You can go through

24:08

Hitler, through all of them. It's

24:10

all based on this idea that

24:12

there's something devious and powerful and

24:14

there's a conspiracy and they're the

24:16

problem. So yes,

24:18

but in this case where

24:22

you've got people seeing the

24:25

scale of the retribution against

24:28

an impoverished and

24:31

very vulnerable society where

24:35

it's now hard to separate from the

24:39

people who are being punished and the people who committed

24:41

the crime, Hamas,

24:44

where you've got more than 30 or maybe 40,000

24:47

people dead, isn't

24:49

it fair to say, well

24:51

in this instance Israel clearly

24:53

is the powerful and the

24:55

Palestinian people are the

24:57

powerless and they are getting absolutely

24:59

brutalised. Isn't that a fair

25:01

reaction? Two responses to that. First of all,

25:03

Hamas from Gaza is a proxy mini state

25:06

of Iran. Right, this is fine. But hold

25:08

on. I'm not avoiding the question. I'm not

25:10

avoiding the question. I

25:13

totally acknowledge that what's

25:15

happened in Gaza and is happening

25:18

in Gaza today as we speak is

25:20

an appalling slaughter. But I want

25:23

to put a question back to you, which is ever

25:26

since October the 7th, front

25:28

pages of newspapers, news bulletins, we

25:30

have seen the face of Benjamin

25:33

Netanyahu and rightly so thousands

25:35

of times, hundreds of thousands of times. Indeed

25:37

we've seen him again this week

25:40

because of the question

25:42

of whether the ceasefire, which is

25:45

still in active negotiation, will

25:47

go ahead. We almost

25:49

never see ever the

25:51

face of a man called Yahya Senwa.

25:54

Why is his face not on the front

25:56

page of newspapers all over the world? Who

25:58

is this man? He is the head of

26:01

Hamas in Gaza. He's been the

26:03

head of Hamas in Gaza since

26:05

2017. He planned October

26:07

the 7th. He also, and

26:10

this was a piece of just in terms of

26:12

military planning, a piece of bloodless

26:15

but brilliant planning, he prepared

26:17

the battlefield in advance because

26:19

he knew Israel would

26:21

retaliate. And he

26:24

had built five kilometres of tunnels where

26:26

Hamas personnel could

26:28

go, but not civilians, and

26:30

since October the 7th, he

26:33

has done everything in

26:35

his power to stop Palestinian

26:40

civilians from being evacuated. He has

26:42

shot them. He has aimed

26:45

mortars at them. During the

26:47

pause last year, Sinwar

26:50

moved 300,000 Palestinian

26:52

civilians back into harm's way.

26:56

He also is, you know, one

26:58

of his lieutenants, Ghazi Hamad, said

27:00

in November of October the 7th,

27:02

we will do it twice and three

27:04

times. Now, all I'm saying

27:06

is when you're up against, first of

27:08

all, why is this guy never asked

27:11

to do something ever? I

27:13

mean, you never read, you never ever read

27:15

or see a protest saying, when

27:18

will Sinwar, you know, end the

27:20

conflict? Isn't that because, I mean,

27:23

I can't explain 100%, but isn't some

27:25

of the rationale behind

27:28

that, the fact that this guy would be

27:30

seen as clearly evil

27:32

and not somebody

27:35

who you would present as the solution

27:37

to anything? Well, hang on a minute.

27:39

I mean, I suppose you're, you know,

27:41

we've been through seven months of Israel's

27:44

evil. Yeah. You know, at

27:47

what point does Yaya

27:49

Sinwar become the, and also I

27:51

don't think that he is your

27:53

point, but that logic to work

27:55

in this in the parameters

27:58

of my question around the. the

28:00

asymmetry of the of

28:02

the vengeance. Well

28:05

hang on, the AC you call it the asymmetry of

28:07

the vengeance. What was the

28:09

appropriate retaliation for COVID? I

28:11

don't know but no one ever does. No but

28:13

probably not killing 15,000 children. What?

28:16

Was the appropriate symmetry to

28:18

go across the border and

28:20

kill 1200 civilians take 150

28:22

back? Well what

28:24

was it then? Well yes, you're not

28:28

denying that there is an asymmetry. I mean

28:30

there's always been an asymmetry in the

28:32

response. Of course but that is what

28:34

when you are, we're not talking here,

28:37

remember we're not talking here about a

28:40

terrorist incursion by a force

28:42

that's thousands of miles away

28:44

normally. We're talking about next-door

28:47

neighbors. We're talking about you

28:49

know what Jewish people can see literally

28:51

over the rise. Yes, you know what

28:54

was the reasonable proportionate response

28:57

to what happened on October the 7th, the

28:59

sexual violence, the murder of infants. I

29:02

don't know, I mean I don't know. No one does but this

29:04

is the problem. But I don't buy

29:06

the argument that because I can't answer that

29:08

question and nobody can. I don't buy the

29:10

argument that that is equals carte blanche

29:12

to any response. No I don't think it means carte

29:14

blanche and by the way, and again

29:17

this is a very unpopular point and I'm

29:20

aware that I'm digging myself a hole here, the

29:23

ratio of combatants

29:26

to civilians killed in Gaza,

29:28

though still horrific, is

29:30

way lower than it

29:32

is has been in other conflicts.

29:34

I mean what you have here

29:37

is a situation where Hamas wanted

29:39

to stop a shift

29:41

towards a two-state solution and

29:43

it wanted Israel to do

29:45

something that would make that an impossibility

29:47

for a generation. And it's probably succeeded.

29:49

It's probably succeeded in a objective. But

29:52

what you have to remember is that the

29:54

minute that October the 7th happened, no

29:57

reasonable person could expect

30:01

Israelis ever again to negotiate

30:04

with Hamas. So for

30:06

all the talk of let's have a

30:08

ceasefire, let's have a two state solution.

30:10

Okay, a ceasefire, but is Hamas still

30:12

operative? Yeah, right? Yeah. Two

30:14

state solution, forget it. It's not gonna happen. You

30:17

know, I really hope it happens

30:20

in my lifetime, but I'm less

30:22

sure because Hamas and

30:25

at the moment, the

30:27

full spectrum of Israeli political

30:29

opinion is against it. Isn't there a bit

30:31

of, no, look, I think

30:33

that's totally right, but isn't there a

30:35

conflation between, or in

30:39

those arguments about what's the right response,

30:41

what should Israel do? What

30:43

is the future with

30:45

Hamas still in existence? Isn't

30:50

that helping to conflate

30:52

Hamas with the people of Palestine?

30:54

No, because I, you know, we

30:57

accept Hamas's 30,000 civilians dead, right? Yeah.

31:01

Well, let's accept for

31:03

now the IDF report

31:05

that it has managed to disable 20 of 24

31:08

Hamas battalions, right? Yeah.

31:11

It is very close to degrading Hamas

31:14

as a viable military force,

31:16

right? This is why the

31:19

incursion into Rafa, which in fact has

31:21

already begun, is so

31:23

contested because, you know, the

31:25

West is saying, look, you know, stop

31:28

it. You've done enough. Netanyahu,

31:30

and not just Netanyahu, by the way, some

31:32

of the politicians who are

31:35

proposed as more biddable

31:37

successors, like Benny Gantz, are saying exactly

31:40

the same, until we get into Rafa

31:42

and we get the last

31:44

remaining leaders of Hamas, the job is not done.

31:46

Yes. Now, what's interesting here

31:49

is that, and we haven't

31:51

really mentioned this yet, but it sort of gets us back into

31:54

real events, is

31:56

that Joe Biden has

31:59

made a massive... announcement

32:01

in that he has said categorically in the

32:03

CNN interview that he

32:05

won't supply Israel with weapons

32:07

to bombard Rafah. Now that's

32:09

a big moment. It's

32:12

less... And it's worth pausing just to talk

32:14

about what weapons we're talking about because they

32:16

are 2,000 and 5,000 pound bombs. Yes, yeah

32:18

but the reason again... It's not targeted, highly

32:20

targeted... I'm in danger of becoming an idea

32:23

of spokesman which I don't want to be

32:25

but the reason that those

32:27

bombs are necessary is because

32:29

Timor had built such a

32:32

subterranean tunnel network. But

32:34

even Biden saying the bloody obvious

32:36

which is if you drop 2,000

32:38

pound bombs anywhere to blow up a

32:40

tunnel you're gonna kill shed loads of innocent civilians

32:42

as well. Yes, he is. That is not gonna

32:45

happen. Yes and well...

32:49

Isn't that reasonable? Except...

32:52

Again, you know and I know you've

32:55

adopted the position that you don't have to

32:57

come up with an alternative strategy. What are

33:00

the Israelis meant... Well, okay let me meet

33:02

you halfway and say what would be super

33:04

helpful is if there was a sense of

33:06

what would happen after Israel considers the job

33:08

done. Right, well now

33:10

we're at the bone. I really think this is

33:12

the most interesting bit. So I

33:15

think there will be a ceasefire. I think that

33:17

we're actually closer to it than has

33:20

been reported. That we came very close to

33:23

the beginning of the week and then Hamas

33:25

rewrote it. Netanyahu said not Nunele but the

33:28

CIA director William J Burns is practically living

33:30

down there at the moment and although

33:33

it is always complicated I think that the

33:36

prospect of a ceasefire is better than it's ever been. The

33:39

question is what happens

33:42

next and who is in charge.

33:44

Now the

33:46

worrying thing about what the Biden administration

33:48

wants to do, conscious of legacy, is

33:51

it wants to get immediately going

33:53

with two-state solution talks

33:56

and this I think is

33:59

really not good. is a trilateral

34:02

Saudi Israel-US agreement,

34:05

sort of the finish off the Abraham Accords

34:07

that President Trump started.

34:09

I think that's

34:12

a ridiculous way to look at it. It's far too

34:14

big scale. The first thing that needs to happen is

34:17

that we need

34:20

a massive

34:22

Marshall Plan style infrastructure

34:24

reconstruction plan that's going to last five to

34:27

ten years. And

34:29

that is in the ceasefire document that's

34:31

doing the rounds and that's good. And

34:33

that's going to cost the international community

34:35

a lot of money and money

34:38

well spent. The trickier business

34:41

to this I don't have

34:43

an answer to is who

34:46

runs Gaza

34:49

pro-tem. The suggestion

34:51

is a mixture of Egypt, Qatar and

34:53

the UN. We'll see.

34:56

And then the final question,

34:59

which is the important one is where

35:02

do we find a Palestinian actor,

35:04

a group, an agency with

35:06

whom Israel can

35:09

negotiate? Because once

35:12

this stops and one hopes it stops

35:15

much sooner rather than later, there's

35:17

going to have to be

35:21

a new Palestinian entity with

35:23

which Israelis can step by

35:25

step negotiate.

35:27

But of course, sadly, and this is

35:29

just an inevitable consequence

35:32

of what's happened, whoever's right,

35:34

whoever's wrong, is that the

35:36

levels of hostility now. I mean you've

35:38

got tens of thousands, whichever

35:41

number you believe, you've got tens of

35:43

thousands of people who have been orphaned,

35:45

widowed, who've lost

35:47

children, who are deeply,

35:49

deeply psychologically embittered now

35:52

against Israel. Traumatised

35:54

Israel. And the same on the other

35:56

side as well. You've got Israel.

36:00

This is why I keep coming with. I

36:02

mean, I'd. Slightly and

36:04

in order to seal man things I

36:06

I I always try in these comes

36:08

in these debates to put these really

36:10

want to be because very few people

36:12

do right Ice and the fact is

36:14

that you know what happened art Hope

36:16

of the Seventh which has largely been

36:18

not a raise but it it's been

36:20

put aside as it was a horrible

36:22

thing. but Israel has massively I've reacted.

36:25

The. Idea that Mesut Israel is a

36:28

is is is the overreact. There

36:30

is a familiar things for people

36:32

feel comfortable. Sense of

36:34

the Box. But what about just puts just once,

36:36

just for one second? Because I didn't feel like

36:38

that. But I do now. So

36:40

I've been on a journey. I remember

36:43

listening to Johnny Freedoms podcast and are

36:45

being absolutely. Won over

36:47

by his cohosts argument. Thought you

36:49

know people keep saying the clock

36:51

kids as a timetable on his

36:53

aerials. People are always telling checking

36:55

Israel and that was rooted in

36:57

a kind of. Supra

37:00

Anti Semitism. You knows god why Israel

37:02

was treated as a special case and

37:04

I've bought into that and I saw

37:06

on I still do generally speaking but

37:08

again on the specifics of what's happened

37:11

in the last seven months. As time

37:13

has gone on. I. Just

37:15

look up sleepy bewildered

37:17

at the base fact

37:19

that. You

37:22

know, twenty thirty forty thousand intermittent people

37:24

at all. It. Was

37:26

it isn't is bewildering it may

37:28

be. In. Your view horribly

37:30

unethical and wrong, right, but

37:32

it isn't bewilderingly bewilders may

37:35

well because with it will

37:37

because that. Set

37:40

up but type the Sept Oct.

37:42

the seventh was. Up

37:45

An ingenious. Step.

37:47

Forward M. it is it. Nothing

37:49

like it had been seen. Perhaps.

37:51

since my lie or something i

37:54

did any what the at that

37:56

but that that isn't really have

37:58

a proper precedent it guarantees that

38:01

the Israelis would have to eradicate

38:05

Hamas from Gaza, which of

38:07

course, as you imply, is

38:09

a task that would necessarily

38:11

involve the deaths of many

38:13

civilians. And as I keep

38:15

coming back to this, no one, you

38:18

know, in seven months of thousands of

38:20

articles, hundreds of podcasts, no one has

38:22

come up with a solution that does

38:25

not really mean just

38:27

Israel stop. No. No one has

38:29

come up with a plan for what

38:32

Israel would do if

38:34

it stopped completely now and

38:37

Hamas continued to be an active

38:39

force in Gaza. OK. I mean,

38:41

look, obviously it's bloody

38:43

complicated. And the other thing that I

38:45

can hear people kind of

38:48

screaming at their whatever

38:50

headphones, whatever they listen to this podcast on is

38:52

that, you know, we're discussing this as though October

38:55

the seventh was day one. You

38:58

know, and of course, there's a very compelling

39:00

argument to say, no, no, no, no, you've

39:02

got to look much further back. And this

39:04

is everything is a reaction and a reaction

39:06

and a reaction. And it's escalated in its

39:08

reaction. And, you

39:11

know, I just think there's a valid argument

39:13

for people to say in this

39:16

in this case. I

39:19

my conviction is that the people of Palestine have

39:21

been treated badly for a long time. Hamas is

39:23

a reaction to that treatment.

39:26

We can then go further back and say,

39:28

well, the reason Israel treats Hamas

39:32

like that is a reaction to the way they've been

39:34

treated. You can take it back as far as you

39:36

like, but it becomes a very circular argument. And at

39:38

some point, someone's got to be

39:40

the big guy and break out of that

39:42

circularity. And obviously, I'm not saying there

39:45

would be no reaction and that Israel would be

39:47

expected to turn the other cheek to what Hamas

39:49

did. Of course not. But has

39:52

my question is, has what Israel

39:54

has done since October 7th

39:56

made a longer term

39:59

solution for? either people closer

40:01

or further away? I

40:03

don't know, but I also, I always

40:06

balk at the idea that it's

40:08

only Israel's responsibility to find the

40:10

longer term solution. But I

40:12

don't know. I mean, you said earlier that, you

40:14

know, the leader of Hamas was an evil man.

40:16

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

40:18

Which is basically saying he's over here with all the

40:21

evil guys. Well, no, I'm saying he

40:23

is. Right, okay, but you know, Hamas is an evil.

40:25

Hamas is an evil and irrational force, whereas Israel

40:27

is part of the family of Naples. I said

40:29

he was an evil man. This guy who drags 300,000

40:31

people to be victims, you

40:35

know, to accelerate the drama and

40:38

the crisis. But hang on,

40:40

yeah, and he had 4,000 people, some

40:42

of them civilians, behind him in 22 incursion

40:44

points on October the 7th. I mean, the

40:47

problem in all of these things is what

40:50

I always call unpalatable truths, right? There

40:52

is a very familiar way of

40:54

discussing the Middle East and it

40:57

has mostly prevailed since October the 7th. And

40:59

by the way, if you want

41:01

me to criticize Israel, the biggest criticism I

41:03

would make of them other than, you know, obviously

41:06

I regret the loss

41:08

of life in Gaza, but the biggest

41:10

criticism has been a total

41:12

failure of public diplomacy. Netanyahu

41:14

has been a disaster in explaining to

41:17

the world what's going on. And

41:19

specifically, it was a

41:21

grotesque error not to allow

41:24

Western journalists and other journalists to go embedded

41:26

with the IDF into Gaza. So they can

41:28

say, this is why we're doing this. This

41:30

is why we're doing that. As it is,

41:33

people's impression of what's going on in

41:35

Gaza has been wholly crafted

41:37

by Hamas, Palestinian civilians, Palestinian journalists,

41:40

you know, and I think that

41:43

for that Israel will pay a price

41:45

actually. It was a very bad decision.

41:47

Yeah, I mean, obviously there's been, there's

41:51

been ammunition, metaphorically speaking,

41:54

that the Palestinian journalists have been handed

41:56

by some of the behaviour by the

41:58

IDF. That

42:00

point about not coming enough

42:03

from Netanyahu about what the solution is

42:05

and what the plan is, is

42:07

where I was trying to meet you halfway before, which is if...

42:11

Because right now the plan just looks like white guards

42:13

are off the face of the earth. No, I don't...

42:15

That's what it looks like. It may look like it,

42:17

but it isn't. I mean, look, Israel

42:20

is a military giant, right? Yeah.

42:23

If it wanted to wipe guards off the

42:25

face of the earth, if it really was

42:27

committed to what people call genocide, this would

42:29

look even worse, right? I mean, I know

42:31

it is extremely

42:33

unfashionable to say this,

42:36

but in fact, the IDF, you know,

42:38

it handed out leaflets. It called people

42:40

on their phones. It hovered

42:43

drones over areas saying, this area is going

42:45

to be attacked. Which

42:48

other country ever has

42:50

done something like that? Well, Iran did it

42:52

when it was attacking Israel. Or telegraphed it's

42:54

attacked, didn't it? All right, fair enough. I

42:57

mean, though not to the

42:59

civilians. But okay, but what I'm saying is

43:01

that there was a direct attempt to minimise

43:04

civilian casualties, right? But the

43:06

fact is that we have forgotten

43:08

what warfare is like. You know,

43:10

if you make an attack like October

43:12

the 7th, there is a

43:15

very high likelihood that... And, you

43:18

know, basically the Second World War

43:20

was this. The outcome is going

43:22

to involve civilian death on a

43:24

scale that is really, really difficult

43:27

to take. And now we have

43:29

technology that presses it into

43:31

our faces all the time. And

43:33

the bigger question, and this

43:35

is for another day when things

43:37

are calmer and, you know, hopefully

43:39

something like peace is returned, is

43:41

it actually possible to fight

43:45

wars like this? I mean,

43:48

or is the reality that Israel

43:52

will just have to accept that it can't do

43:54

stuff like this if it wants to remain part

43:56

of the international community? And if

43:58

it's told that, will it want to remain? part

44:00

of the international community. I mean I hope it

44:02

does but I must

44:04

say that I think that

44:08

the framing has been skewed. Yeah,

44:13

okay. Well, we

44:15

started. Bit of a domestic there. Ripples

44:17

in a pond and the ripples have extended even as

44:19

far as the sea map. No, but it's good. It's really

44:21

important and I'll tell you why it's important. It's because

44:25

I think that because we respect each

44:27

other, I think we can say these things

44:29

without fear or favour. What

44:32

worries me about this war

44:34

is that the kind

44:36

of discussion we've just had

44:38

happens almost never. Yeah, yeah.

44:41

Right. I think that's absolutely true. You know, I

44:43

mean, it's like we've

44:46

probably changed each other's minds

44:48

by 5%. Yeah. But

44:51

that's a start. No, no, for sure. Right. I

44:54

mean, the other point I want to make is

44:56

that our conversation,

44:59

the students on the campuses,

45:02

the universities divesting from Israel,

45:05

the process in

45:07

London every weekend, none of it

45:09

matters, really. None of it

45:12

makes any difference, really. What

45:14

will make a difference is governments

45:17

talking together. Yeah.

45:21

And putting

45:23

pressure on both sides.

45:26

I mean, I think the time has come where there's got

45:28

to be some pressure and some leverage. Well, I

45:30

think that you're seeing that from Biden now.

45:32

Yeah. And actually, you know,

45:35

one of the interesting things about this is

45:37

that it's unusual for Biden to do this.

45:39

It's not actually that unusual for American presidents.

45:41

I mean, Reagan and Bush, Sr.

45:44

frequently, you know, clouded Israel and said,

45:46

you can't have this unless you do

45:48

that. And it's for, you know, there

45:51

is scope always for the American-Israel relationship

45:53

to be used as a lever in

45:55

this. And I wouldn't

45:57

be pessimistic. about that. Well, you

46:00

know, I mean my only optimism

46:02

and it feels terrible saying even

46:05

using the phrase optimism in the middle of the horror.

46:07

No, I don't think you don't know. But the optimism,

46:09

it feels like we are at rock bottom

46:11

and it feels like the only way is

46:14

up from here. Well, I think what's happening

46:16

is that the detail of the ceasefire is

46:19

actually now so great that

46:21

it's beginning to develop the form of a

46:24

immediate post-conflict plan.

46:26

Yeah. And these things, which

46:28

is not to say that by the next time

46:30

we meet for a podcast, you know, everything will

46:32

be insulted. But I do

46:35

think that we

46:37

are at, let's put it no

46:39

more than this, we are at a fork in the road and I think

46:41

that there is a 30% chance

46:44

that we might get a ceasefire quite quickly.

46:46

I would put it no higher than that,

46:48

but that's higher than I would have thought

46:51

of at any stage so far. Well, let's

46:53

end it on that positive note. We'll come

46:55

back, we've reached a fork in the road

46:57

and we're going to come back after a

46:59

short break with something totally different. Totally different.

47:02

And jolly. Yeah. So,

47:09

retrospectors, what historical events are we taking off

47:11

on this week's run of Today in History?

47:13

Well, on Tuesday we head to the battlefields

47:15

of medieval Spain to witness the very first

47:17

ambulance. On Wednesday, it's the anniversary

47:19

of the day Coca-Cola's creator hit on

47:21

his winning formula. He dropped a wine

47:23

but kept a cocaine. On Thursday,

47:26

the thief who stuffed the crown jewels down

47:28

his trousers. And on Friday, when free-spirited

47:30

Danish parenting put 90s New York

47:32

in her tears. We discuss this

47:34

and more on Today in History

47:36

with the retrospectors. 10 minutes every

47:38

weekday wherever you get your podcasts.

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rated Pg. Sir.

50:16

But you have come back from

50:18

seeing all days production of my

50:20

favorite film in history ever. Hear

50:23

you know I had a. Such. A

50:25

good tip it was stub. Went up

50:27

to Birmingham Raptors. The great sister. And

50:29

a wonderful place to loans

50:32

this new. Stage. Production

50:34

of Bruce Robertson's with My Lai which

50:36

I think possibly for our generation is

50:38

like holy Writ isn't it you know

50:41

with met many a center status irritated

50:43

people by quoting at Legacy that are

50:45

you the favela just to say I

50:47

watched it with my seventeen year old

50:50

to enjoy who loved it I that

50:52

me I'm in a hot say I

50:54

think it does get through the Checkpoint

50:56

Charlie generation to because my kids both

50:58

love a day so so it's not

51:01

and that's I see relevant to to

51:03

what. I thought at so

51:05

Bruce Robinson is always. Resisted

51:08

the idea staging this. the the

51:10

movie and the movie is. It's

51:12

a funny one really because nothing

51:14

much happens. It is about to

51:17

struggling actors. Subsisting. On

51:19

booze and stayed in Camden Town and

51:21

under Sixty Nine and they decide that

51:23

they are treated drifting into the reader

51:26

of the unwell and that they're gonna

51:28

go on holiday to with know who's

51:30

played by Richard. He got his is

51:32

on his Uncle Months he is by

51:34

Richard Griffiths has a remote courses in

51:37

Cumbria they're going together for holiday and

51:39

it's all horrible and then ah Uncle

51:41

Monte turns off and the place transforms

51:43

into assesses. He though Inglis, Eccentrics paradise

51:46

and Uncle Months he makes a move

51:48

on. I. Who's played by Paul

51:50

Mcgann also called mile would in

51:52

the scripts and that then they

51:54

get hype which really doesn't capture

51:57

the sort of much Matty can.

51:59

the dialogue in the music and

52:01

so. He that it's

52:03

taken Robinson a long time to commit

52:05

himself to this. and I think what?

52:08

Made the difference was soon

52:10

Foley He's a brilliant. His

52:13

artistic director birmingham wraps if from the

52:15

sweaty Bruce from said we can do

52:17

this and most for it It won't

52:19

just be a sources. Bloodlust.

52:22

Reenactment of the movie? Enable habits own

52:24

Life Right in. It'll be true to

52:26

the script and the script is mostly

52:28

ram the same. There are bits and

52:30

bobs of change, but not nothing much

52:32

as they carried it off. And

52:35

they have. I mean I'll tell you why, Think

52:37

it works eight same. Number. One the

52:39

people that play the main parts

52:42

Robertson plays with no a done

52:44

acidic a place mall would stroke

52:46

I and not them Sinclair Place

52:48

on for months. He and it's

52:50

really to their credit they don't

52:52

just mimics the movie performances. Yes,

52:55

so. You. Don't have enough see

52:57

the characters have. Their. Own boundaries. but

52:59

but it's It's not like watching the film

53:01

on stage at all. Yes and then that.

53:03

There were lots of fun things like that.

53:06

That the set design is is incredibly ingenious

53:08

because you think about you know they're on

53:10

the road, who did it in in in

53:12

in in Mma woods and at our job

53:14

to and and you know they're they're They're

53:17

in the countryside So crack up a crow

53:19

crag and Jake the Pope said you know

53:21

we're having a what they by the state

53:23

gone on holiday argue the fall Of course

53:26

I'm a fucking a farmer with will stop

53:28

buying. That and. And.

53:30

One, as he was also made it

53:33

was a particularly clever idea. Simple, but

53:35

this made it more vivid in real.

53:37

And now with, they've got a very

53:39

good live band. Playing. The

53:41

music original music say oh and

53:43

that really works I guess is

53:45

that lovely melodic seem they do

53:47

I watch as pale they do

53:50

the Hendricks classic and and and

53:52

so it's some. It is has

53:54

this kind of a sense that

53:56

it's breathing life into production. It's

53:58

own right is breathing. life into

54:00

a movie we all love.

54:03

It is homage to the movie, there's no question

54:05

about it, but it has its own life and

54:07

I really hope it gets the tour and then

54:09

I really hope it gets the West End transfer.

54:14

I really admire them because Whithnall

54:17

is, to

54:19

an almost crazy extent, treated as holy,

54:23

and this breaks the crust of

54:25

reverence. Well it's set in Camden,

54:27

it was starting in 1969, which

54:30

is the year I was born, so there's nothing, it

54:34

kind of feels like the world when I was four

54:36

or five, you know, it's that kind of magic

54:39

nostalgia, but it's such a great film.

54:42

It is and it's about, it's

54:44

a very moving film because it's,

54:46

I think, Robinson is semi-autobiographical about

54:48

his early life as a struggling

54:50

actor, but it's also about his

54:55

simultaneous contempt for and absolute

54:57

love of English eccentricity. Yes.

55:00

And it's also a movie

55:02

stroke play about endings. You

55:04

know, the end of a decade, the

55:06

end of a social order, the end

55:09

of friendship. And as

55:11

Danny, the drug dealer, says,

55:14

very well played in this, says, the

55:17

greatest decade in the history of humanity is

55:19

coming to an end, man, and as Presuming

55:21

Ed here has so consistently pointed out, we

55:24

have failed to paint it black. And

55:29

I don't know why, but that

55:31

particular elegiac line always

55:33

puts the lump in my throat. Well, the

55:35

bit that puts, I'm more basic than you,

55:37

and the bit that always puts a lump

55:39

in my throat is the very last scene

55:41

where he stands outside the London Zoo with

55:44

the wolves. And I've found, I mean, I

55:46

have found the exact railings he stands by,

55:48

and I've found the exact bench that you

55:50

walk past, and it's, and, because

55:53

it's easy to subtract it. And

55:55

of course the wolves are no longer in that

55:57

bit, because they're near the penguin enclosure now. But

56:00

where you start reading from Hamlet and the

56:02

rain starts coming down have a flake there

56:04

were for I know not I'm walks off

56:06

and you just think oh my god, you

56:08

know, you know all of us though in

56:10

the original Script that

56:12

Robinson was going to shoot with

56:15

all goes back to his flat and kills himself

56:17

oh really yeah, which would have been a big

56:19

mistake because the the The

56:22

movie and and the stage play I

56:24

don't want to sort of spoil how they do it But yeah carries

56:27

off this this sense of of melancholy

56:29

as well is is is the

56:31

sense that people do just part Yeah,

56:35

it's about sundrings and partings and the sadness

56:37

and the richness of experience and it's great.

56:39

It's great I was all produced but the

56:41

film was all produced by the great late

56:44

George Harrison Yeah, I mean and and would

56:46

not have happened without George Harrison and it's

56:48

wonderful that also there was some fantastic Early

56:52

miscasting ideas like having Daniel

56:54

Day Lewis's with nor really required, you know

56:57

16 months of preparation and you

56:59

know Kenneth Branagh as well. I

57:01

think was in. Oh, really? Yeah, that would have

57:03

been interesting But I mean that would have changed

57:05

Branagh's career can be it would but

57:07

you know There's something about I think

57:09

Richard E. Grant sort of almost cadaverous

57:11

it perfect, you know at the

57:14

scene where he's applying the Embrication

57:17

the liniments all over and one of

57:19

the teetotal of course. Yeah playing a

57:21

drunkard was amazing Was it but it's

57:23

a great but you know Harrison was

57:26

too tight to pay for the Robinson

57:28

had written in scenes for Obviously

57:31

expensive scenes filming on the motorways right

57:33

the drug the actual drive to crack.

57:35

Yeah Yeah, and

57:38

and Harrison was too tight. So Robinson paid for

57:40

those scenes himself And cut them

57:42

in and of course you kind of think Without

57:45

that linking scene and driving through the night with

57:47

the rain lashing in on the Jag, you know

57:49

And all of that it would have it would

57:52

have really kind of been an unsettling Transition

57:54

from uncle Monty's to straight

57:57

into co-crag. It would have been yeah, you

57:59

need that Yes, and he knew that and

58:01

he said no then. And then on the way

58:03

back, I'm making time. That's right. It's

58:06

made me ridiculous. My cousin's a QC. Sorry,

58:09

this is very it. Well,

58:11

I wonder if there's anybody listening who hasn't seen

58:13

with No More Night. Well, if you haven't, you're

58:15

missing a treat and I hope that this play

58:17

comes. But I think there's just, I mean, it

58:22

is in and of itself, there's no

58:24

other film like it. It's

58:27

interesting, isn't it, that some of these

58:29

great movies are now being transferred to play

58:32

or TV series. So

58:34

we're looking forward to Boys From The Black

58:37

Stuff. Amazing. Which is coming up,

58:39

which has been adapted from Alan Bleezdale's classic. Yeah.

58:42

It comes to the National Theatre on May

58:44

22nd after a special run. And

58:47

you've bought the tickets for that. I have. I

58:49

can't wait. That's a timely big

58:51

call. Another great

58:55

segue to which we had justly celebrated to

58:58

RIP Bernard Hill. Yeah. Who

59:01

played Yossa Hughes in the job in the

59:03

original and timelessly classic.

59:06

Can I clear something up about the word Yossa?

59:09

Just briefly. I would love it

59:11

if you did. Mark Lawson, a very

59:13

good obituary of Bernard Hill. Yes.

59:16

And talked about the character, obviously Yossa

59:19

Hughes, and said that since Boys From

59:21

The Black Stuff, the name Yossa is

59:23

a nickname, has carried on. And he

59:25

knew somebody called Hughes from Liverpool who

59:27

was called Yossa. But the gag is

59:30

that everybody in Liverpool, for a time

59:32

of memoriam who's called Hughes, which

59:34

is pronounced Yous, is called Yossa. It's

59:37

just a Liverpool... Everyone's called

59:39

Yossa. So the gag is that... Is that

59:41

Miffy or...? Yeah, but calling him Yossa Hughes

59:43

is like Yossa Yossa or Hughes Hughes. He's

59:45

really spiffy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's one

59:47

thing Alan Bleezdale can't claim credit for, is

59:50

inventing it. Right, right. But that's very interesting.

59:52

So Bernard Hill, who

59:54

went on to have all

59:57

sorts of acting credits in movies and big

59:59

series. died on

1:00:01

Sunday but what an

1:00:04

exit he made because we've both been enjoying the

1:00:07

Martin Freeman Tony Schumacher TV

1:00:10

season two of The Responder in

1:00:12

which Bernard Hill

1:00:15

plays Tom

1:00:18

who is the father of Chris who

1:00:20

is the copper played by Martin Freeman

1:00:23

and well I'll leave it to you to

1:00:25

explain why he's so brilliant well I mean

1:00:27

well he's brilliant because he brings that I

1:00:29

mean Bernard Hill is brilliant for a start

1:00:31

because always because he he has

1:00:33

the I forget what Mark Lawson said but

1:00:36

it was something about a sort of controlled

1:00:38

rage that could turn it over exactly and

1:00:40

there is a moment in you'll know I

1:00:42

won't spoil it but there's a moment in

1:00:45

I think the third episode where Bernard Hill

1:00:47

is acting in this scene

1:00:49

gobsmacking is oh my god you

1:00:51

know it's like oh wow it's

1:00:53

incredible and it's brutal and it's

1:00:55

but but where the as

1:00:58

in as I'm sure Bernard Hill were in her

1:01:00

life to say so would admit is

1:01:02

that it's the genius of the

1:01:05

writing that facilitates that incredible turn

1:01:07

of acting and this guy

1:01:09

Tony Schumacher is a genius stands alongside

1:01:12

Alan Bleezdale no I mean of course

1:01:14

I'm concerned he you know

1:01:16

one wonders is he the new Alan

1:01:18

Bleezdale yeah well quite easily because if

1:01:20

to describe this as a cop drama

1:01:22

there is so much more

1:01:24

than I like describing King Lear as

1:01:27

a episode of Neighbours you know it's

1:01:29

not it's absolutely intense and incredible it's

1:01:31

a state of the nation and it's

1:01:33

riveting and the final example of this

1:01:36

trend is to come

1:01:38

later in the year in October which is

1:01:40

a Kubrick's Santa Kubrick's

1:01:42

Doctor Strange love is going on stage

1:01:45

oh really as reimagined by

1:01:47

Mande Ghanouchi and Sean Foley

1:01:49

who did the with nal in Birmingham

1:01:52

am I imagining that Steve Coogan's and

1:01:54

not and Steve Coogan is is taking

1:01:56

the people of the role so we'll

1:01:59

see I'm I mean, you know, what a

1:02:01

team. And I guess there's

1:02:03

a sort of interesting question here, which is, is

1:02:06

it, all this

1:02:08

sort of putting of

1:02:10

old TV series, films, whatever onto

1:02:12

the stage, is it just nostalgia,

1:02:14

lack of courage, squeezing as much

1:02:17

juice as you can out of

1:02:19

old intellectual property?

1:02:21

And certainly, you know, if you walk down

1:02:24

Charlesbury Avenue now, there are musicals

1:02:26

and things that are based

1:02:28

on movies you really wish

1:02:31

they wouldn't, they weren't. But I sort

1:02:33

of feel in these three cases with no

1:02:35

Boys in the Black Stuff, Doctor

1:02:38

Strange Love, this, it's good to

1:02:40

see them being, fresh

1:02:43

life being brought in. I mean, to take, you

1:02:45

know, we've talked about Boys in the Black Stuff

1:02:47

a lot on the podcast, sort of reference point

1:02:49

and the kind of alarming echoes today

1:02:54

about the social fabric. But,

1:02:56

you know, Strange Love, this

1:02:59

week Putin ordered nuclear drills. Yeah,

1:03:01

yeah. Who would have thought

1:03:03

in 1964 when Kubrick's film came

1:03:05

out that in 2024 it would

1:03:07

be still horrifically relevant? Well,

1:03:10

I'll tell you what I think the answer

1:03:12

to why this phenomenon

1:03:14

is that all the money suddenly has gone

1:03:16

towards TV series,

1:03:19

you know, Amazon and Disney and Paramount

1:03:21

and all of Netflix, obviously. And that's

1:03:23

where the talents gravitated to. So what

1:03:26

you're seeing is absolutely first,

1:03:28

I mean, and not just recently, oh,

1:03:30

we talked maybe over the last 20

1:03:32

years, the

1:03:34

West Wing Sopranos, you

1:03:36

know, Breaking Bad, The

1:03:38

Wire, you know, these

1:03:41

absolutely time immemorial classics

1:03:45

that would in another time have been

1:03:47

made as movies first. Yeah. Because

1:03:49

that's where the money was. That's true. The money's

1:03:51

moved to TV. And so now all, this

1:03:53

is where all the amazing artwork is happening

1:03:55

and it's a glorious time for television. It

1:03:57

is. You

1:04:00

know, I like the idea of staging

1:04:02

of things, you know, with the

1:04:04

provider, I suppose, that going to the theatre is expensive.

1:04:08

But it's nice to see the, I

1:04:11

guess it's quality, isn't it? When

1:04:13

it's classics like this, it's hard to

1:04:17

object to them being given a different, and

1:04:19

not all of them all work. And by

1:04:21

the way, I must tip my hat towards

1:04:23

you, because half of this stuff I read

1:04:25

now, having read your wonderful cultural

1:04:27

column each week, where you're tipsy.

1:04:31

Well the, in which Wysnall and

1:04:33

I, the stage play

1:04:35

and the responder will both figure. It's

1:04:38

out today, Friday, and

1:04:41

available to... You

1:04:43

European subscribers, just another great reason

1:04:45

to subscribe. Quick hat tip

1:04:47

to Ripley as well on

1:04:50

Netflix, which... Oh, isn't it great? ...was

1:04:52

absolutely wonderful. I mean, you know, tremendous.

1:04:54

And again, another example of how

1:04:57

reinterpretation can... Yeah. Because

1:04:59

you know, a lot of people have played Ripley from not

1:05:01

just Matt Damon, but Alan Delon and

1:05:03

John Malkovich. And I didn't know until

1:05:05

I was looking into the Netflix

1:05:08

series, because I enjoyed Andrew Scott's interpretation.

1:05:10

Yeah, really. I didn't know Dennis Hopper

1:05:12

had a go. Yeah. Had

1:05:14

he really? Yes, he did. I mean, I haven't

1:05:16

yet, I've yet to see the version. I must

1:05:19

catch up with it. But I find it very,

1:05:22

very difficult to imagine old crazy

1:05:24

Dennis as Ripley. The oldest fact about

1:05:26

Dennis Hopper is that he's mad about

1:05:28

transcendental meditation. Dennis

1:05:30

Hopper was crazy about TM. He's

1:05:33

absolutely dead now. Yeah, or he

1:05:35

was. He's transcending... He has now

1:05:37

transcended everything, really. Yogi

1:05:39

flying off to another plane. But he

1:05:41

was, yeah, and he used to fund

1:05:44

like anybody he'd met, he would like

1:05:46

put them on a TM course. I

1:05:48

suppose the truth is that when you've

1:05:50

ingested as much... When

1:05:53

you've been as chemically challenged as Dennis, you've

1:05:55

got to get obsessed by something else, haven't

1:05:57

you? It's very, very... RIP. an

1:06:00

RIP with the

1:06:02

Great Bernard Hill because really, you know, they

1:06:04

don't, they broke the mould with

1:06:07

that one, I think. Gizzard job. I can

1:06:09

do that. I can do that. So Matt,

1:06:11

thank you as ever for another, well challenging

1:06:13

this time, but... Challenging

1:06:15

and jolly. Still enjoyable conversation. Laced with

1:06:17

optimism. Yeah. You have

1:06:20

to find it, but it's there. If

1:06:22

you found this conversation stimulating, get your

1:06:24

questions, any feedback into the two mats,

1:06:26

that's the number two, M-A-T-T-S, at

1:06:30

tnepublishing.com. Two mats

1:06:32

at tnepublishing.com. Or if you listen on

1:06:34

Spotify, you can message us there, and

1:06:36

that's what John did. And he says,

1:06:38

first listen now on the roster. Not

1:06:40

a question, but thank you, John. That's

1:06:42

a... Well, thank you. Nice

1:06:45

to oblige. Thank you very much for all the

1:06:47

positive response. If you like it, tell everybody you

1:06:49

know, and subscribe and like this or whatever you

1:06:52

need to do. We'll have

1:06:54

loads of questions and answers in our

1:06:56

usual Q&A session on Sunday, so please

1:06:58

join us then. And remember our

1:07:00

subscription offer. If you like

1:07:02

the Two Mats podcast, I personally

1:07:05

guarantee you will love getting the

1:07:07

New European newspaper every week. Go

1:07:09

to theneweuropean.co.uk/two mats, number two, M-A-T-T-S,

1:07:12

and there's a link in the

1:07:14

show notes. Thank you to

1:07:16

producer Matt Hill at Rethink Audio with support from

1:07:18

Ollie Peart. And until next week... It's goodbye from

1:07:20

me. It's goodbye from him. Goodbye.

1:07:31

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