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credit. That's linkedin.com/results. Terms

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and conditions apply. Hello,

1:32

I'm Matt Kelly. And I'm Matt D'Ancona. And

1:34

this is the two mattes for the week ending Friday

1:36

the 16th of February. A podcast

1:39

with a beautiful view, at least for this week. And

1:41

that's because I am up in

1:43

Scotland on my holidays. And we're having a

1:45

fantastic time in Aberdeen. Well,

1:48

I am in southeast

1:51

London looking at the

1:53

beautiful townscape of the borough of

1:55

London. Of the

1:57

borough of Lotion. I... Why

1:59

would I... I need to move. Exactly.

2:03

Is it good up there? Is it

2:05

lovely? It's fantastic. It's lovely. We've

2:08

been in Ballator where the King and

2:10

Camilla have got a place and all

2:12

the local shops in

2:14

the high street have got the biroil

2:17

appointment crests. Of course they have.

2:19

So there's a takeaway called the

2:21

new Shanghai takeaway and it's got

2:23

this massive biroil appointment crest on

2:26

it. So that's clearly where Charles gets his

2:28

chow mein which is good to know. And

2:31

then we went up to Inverness. Inverness, what

2:33

a fantastic town Inverness is. Loads

2:35

of great restaurants, pubs, beautiful river, lovely

2:37

islands, you can go for a walk

2:40

in. Thoroughly recommend it. And

2:42

to get here we took the

2:44

magnificent Caledonian sleeper from Houston. Oh

2:46

really? All the way to Aberdeen.

2:48

Ah it was wonderful. And we're

2:50

going back down tonight sadly. But

2:52

we've had a terrific time and

2:54

we saw the most amazing football

2:56

game at Petodsery last night where

2:58

Aberdeen were three nil down after

3:00

25 minutes to Motherwell and

3:03

then Neil Warnock who is now the

3:05

temporary manager of Aberdeen made a

3:08

few substitutions having messed up the

3:10

initial starting formation and scored

3:12

two goals in quick succession. And then after

3:14

half time scored an equaliser.

3:16

So it ended 3-3 but it was

3:19

an enthralling spectacle and a great advert

3:21

for Scottish Premier League football. So well

3:23

done. The Dons. So what

3:26

did we talk about this week Matt?

3:28

Well we talked about that inimitable duo

3:30

Keir Starmer and Bob Marley. So

3:33

I'm not quite sure how to

3:35

make the two of them.

3:38

But I suppose we talked

3:42

primarily about the

3:44

difficulties that Labour has been having

3:47

over anti-Semitism and candidate selection

3:49

and so on. So that was the

3:51

main issue. And then in the second half we

3:53

came and talked about fantastic music biopics didn't we?

3:55

Because you've just seen the Bob Marley film. Yes

3:58

exactly. The pegs for the Bob Marley movie. So

4:00

what should we call this issue? I mean, I think we've

4:02

got to park Bob Marley

4:04

in the title probably in focus on

4:06

on the crisis in labor right now.

4:09

Yes. Is

4:11

crisis too strong a word? I think it's

4:14

labor forever war. Labor's forever war.

4:16

That's quite intriguing. And we'll induce

4:19

some clicks, I think, which is

4:21

the whole point, isn't it, to

4:23

be totally cynical about it? No,

4:25

we disdain clickbait. We love it.

4:27

That's our motto. We disdain it

4:30

and depend on it. We disdain

4:32

it. Exactly. Okay, so

4:34

this is the two mats,

4:36

episode 33, labor's forever war.

4:39

Enjoy. So

4:56

Matt, what are

4:59

we talking

5:01

about this week? Well, I think

5:04

we have to talk about labor's

5:06

problems over anti-Semitism and the conflict

5:08

in the Middle East. Obviously, we're

5:10

recording this on Thursday. And

5:14

so we don't know the results of

5:17

the Wellingborough and Kingswood by-elections. But I

5:19

think that the labor shambles

5:21

this week is something that will outlast

5:24

the results, whatever they are. Maybe

5:27

we could sort of kick

5:29

off and get into the subject

5:31

by playing a clip

5:34

of Starmer in October 2020. I

5:37

don't know if producer Matt can help us out with that. If

5:40

you're anti-Semitic, you should be nowhere near this

5:42

party. And we'll make sure you're not.

5:46

And if, after all

5:48

the pain, all the

5:50

grief, and all the evidence

5:52

in this report, there are still those

5:54

who think there's no problem with anti-Semitism

5:57

in the Labor Party, but it's all

5:59

exaggerated. or a factual attack, then

6:02

frankly, you are past the problem too. And

6:04

you should be nowhere near the Labour Party either.

6:07

So that's going

6:10

back to October 2020 and it's

6:12

Stama's response to the Equality

6:14

and Human Rights Commission report

6:17

into Labour's handling of anti-Semitism under

6:19

Jeremy Corbyn. And why is that

6:22

relevant to this week? Well, because

6:25

it's kind of the core

6:28

backdrop to all the problems

6:30

that Labour has been having

6:32

this week. So just to recap for

6:34

listeners who maybe haven't been following it

6:36

as obsessively as we have. Last

6:39

Saturday night, the mail-on Sunday dropped

6:41

and it revealed that Azar Ali,

6:44

the Labour Party's candidate

6:47

in Rochdale, which is

6:49

having a by-election thanks to the very

6:51

sad death of Tony Lloyd, who died

6:53

in January, had said, this is Ali,

6:56

had said at a meeting shortly after

6:58

the October the 7th massacres

7:00

that the Israelis had connived

7:04

in what turned out to be

7:06

the worst day of slaughter for Jews since the

7:08

Holocaust. And his words were, they

7:10

deliberately took the security of, this

7:12

is the Israelis, they allowed that

7:14

massacre that gives them the green light to

7:17

do whatever they bloody want. They, in that

7:19

case, being hammers. Now, this

7:21

is obviously a bonkers conspiracy theory,

7:24

but it's also without a shadow

7:26

of a doubt and under any definition,

7:28

anti-Semitic. Why? Because

7:31

it uses the classic example of

7:34

the ancient trope that Jews invite

7:37

or conspire in their own persecution.

7:40

This is a slam dunk case

7:42

of anti-Semitism. There's no need to

7:44

get into the sort of nuance and detail.

7:46

It really is. And

7:49

in that context, it's worth sort of

7:51

just putting into the conversation at this

7:54

point that this week,

7:56

the Community Security Trust, which

7:58

monitors anti-Semitism has reported. reported

8:01

a 589% increase in

8:04

the number of incidents of anti-Semitism compared with 2022,

8:08

two-thirds of which in

8:10

2023 occurred after October

8:12

the 7th. So this

8:15

isn't just an abstract question or

8:17

a matter of semantics or politics

8:20

or faction. This has

8:22

real world consequences. It

8:27

seems to me, Starmer

8:29

should have withdrawn support from Ali

8:32

there and then. But instead, he

8:34

waited until Monday evening when

8:37

the Daily Mail revealed more.

8:40

The Mail revealed that Ali had defended

8:43

the Labour MP Andy

8:45

McDonald, who's the MP for Middlesbrough,

8:49

who was suspended in October after he

8:51

used the controversial phrase between the river

8:53

and the sea at a rally that

8:55

refers to the area between the river

8:57

Jordan and the Mediterranean. And

9:00

of that, Ali complained and then

9:02

said at a meeting, the same

9:04

meeting it seems, I'm quoting, the media

9:06

and some of the people in the

9:08

media from certain Jewish quarters were giving

9:11

crap about what he McDonald said. Again,

9:14

that's explicitly anti-Semitic. The

9:17

standard definition of anti-Semitism for

9:20

people who are interested is

9:22

the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance

9:26

definition, which Labour has incorporated in full. Corbyn

9:28

didn't want to incorporate it in full, but

9:30

it did in 2018. And

9:34

the second example it gives is

9:37

an example of anti-Semitism is the

9:39

myth about a world Jewish conspiracy

9:41

or of Jews controlling the media,

9:43

economy, government or other societal institutions.

9:45

So again, Ali was

9:47

clearly anti-Semitic. So

9:50

there was a second Labour

9:53

candidate who has been suspended

9:55

Graham Jones on Wednesday. But I

9:59

think it's worth. I don't know what

10:01

you think about it, but I think that there

10:03

are two questions first of all is, you know,

10:05

what is and what isn't anti-Semitic in this context?

10:08

And I think off the bat, it's

10:10

really, really, really important to say not

10:13

every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.

10:16

You know, it really isn't. It's emphatically

10:18

not. It's really not anti-Semitic

10:20

to say that Benjamin Netanyahu is

10:22

a terrible prime minister. It's

10:26

not anti-Semitic to

10:29

say that Israel's response to October the 7th

10:31

has been excessive. It's

10:33

not anti-Semitic to support the

10:37

SMP's motion coming up next week

10:39

calling for an immediate ceasefire in

10:41

Gaza. But

10:44

the things that Ali said

10:46

were anti-Semitic. And

10:49

that is clear. Where

10:51

I'm not clear is where

10:54

the things Graham Jones said,

10:56

where he said, quote, fuck

10:58

Israel. Now,

11:01

that is open to interpretation.

11:04

What does he mean by that? Does he

11:06

mean the state of

11:08

these people, what they're doing is terrible,

11:10

or does it mean fuck the entire

11:13

Israeli concept of Israel? That

11:15

was- I don't think it's the

11:17

latter. That's

11:19

sort of open to interpretation, I

11:21

guess. The bit of what Jones

11:24

said that's undoubtedly anti-Semitic

11:26

is when he gets into the question of

11:29

people who have dual nationality going off

11:31

to fight for Israel. He said it's

11:34

against the law and you should be

11:37

locked up, right? Yeah. But is that

11:39

anti-Semitic? Yes. Yes, it is. Is it

11:41

not possible- and I'm just-

11:43

I'm asking the question through ignorance. Is it

11:45

not possible that he was ignorant of the

11:47

law and thought it was a little bit

11:49

like going off to fight for a foreign

11:51

force of any kind and it

11:54

was a criminal offense? It's

11:57

become such a- I mean, Labour has been

11:59

de-evident. dealing with these questions now for

12:01

many years. So I would have thought

12:03

it hoves a Labour candidate to acquaint

12:05

themselves with the law in these issues

12:08

before opening them out. Secondly,

12:10

again, going back to that definition

12:13

from the International

12:15

Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, which really is

12:17

the global standard, it is anti-Semitic

12:20

to accuse Jewish citizens of being

12:22

more loyal to Israel or to

12:24

the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide and then

12:27

to the interests of their own nations. So

12:29

he was playing again into an anti-Semitic trope,

12:32

which is, you know, what

12:34

are Brits doing going off fighting for Israel?

12:37

Slam dunk. And I

12:40

know that there's a kind of feeling

12:42

of, well, you know, this is all

12:44

very complicated, but actually it's not. And

12:46

people can go to the IHRA website

12:48

and he could have done and

12:51

every Labour candidate and counsellor should do

12:53

and just acquaint

12:55

themselves with the rules. They're really

12:57

very, very straightforward. They're a lot

12:59

more straightforward than the rules governing

13:01

Islamophobia, I have to say, which

13:04

is not to defend Islamophobia. But, you know, it

13:06

really isn't it isn't as difficult

13:08

as everyone is currently

13:11

pretending that this is sort of, you

13:13

know, terribly complicated. You just have to

13:15

acquaint yourself with the with

13:17

the distinction between the Israeli government

13:20

and the nature of Israel as

13:22

a Jewish homeland. And it

13:25

is very, you know, if Labour is serious

13:27

about driving anti-Semitism out of its

13:30

ranks, it has to be very,

13:34

very clear about this now. Well, let me just

13:36

before you go on, let me just let me

13:38

just say that I, for me,

13:41

having read about it and thought about it,

13:44

with Azar Ali, the comments to me,

13:47

you use the phrase slam dunk. I

13:49

agree completely. I think there's no room

13:51

for any kind of explanation

13:54

beyond anti-Semitism with

13:57

the with the comments made by Graham Jones. And

13:59

the reason I'm. exploring this is because I

14:01

think it's coming to a bigger question about

14:03

Labour's reaction with the comments about Graham Jones.

14:05

I think there is some context there that

14:08

he could say I was

14:10

expressing frustration, I was ignorant

14:12

of the law, I did actually think it was illegal

14:14

to go out and fight, you know, he could just

14:16

say I just didn't know and I got it completely

14:18

wrong and there was no

14:21

motivation of anti-Semitism there. So that's my

14:23

view and I recognize that it's different

14:25

to your view on that. But

14:27

the question that I think is interesting

14:30

is this one of a factionalism

14:32

or the accusation that Labour is

14:34

still driven by factionalism? Okay

14:36

well this is where we get

14:38

into the really interesting sort of

14:41

Labour internal party politics. So the

14:43

Labour left as alleged double standards

14:46

and it said that the delay

14:48

in taking Ali off, you know,

14:51

disavowing Ali as a Labour candidate

14:53

is a reflection of his alleged

14:56

factional affinity to Keir Starmer

14:58

because he was a advisor

15:00

to Brown on to Blair

15:03

and you had people like Owen Jones going out

15:05

and saying look what happens, you know, the Labour

15:08

right get treated specially, the Labour left don't. I

15:10

think this is complete nonsense. The

15:13

reason that they delayed and they shouldn't have delayed

15:15

by the way, it was terrible

15:18

error, was because

15:21

the deadline for the

15:23

ballot papers had passed in

15:25

Rochdale and so if they disavowed

15:29

Ali there would be no Labour candidate

15:32

and the problem with that

15:34

and here we really get to the specific

15:39

is that Labour fears that

15:41

it is handing Rochdale to George

15:43

Galloway who's standing there and George

15:46

Galloway has a sort of kind of

15:49

symbolism in the Labour universe

15:51

that Nigel Farage has in

15:54

the Tory universe. You know,

15:56

he is famous for beating

15:59

the sitting Labour MP Una King

16:01

in Bethnal and Green in 2005 and

16:03

then more spectacularly winning the 2012 Bradford

16:07

West by-election with a

16:09

36% swing. And

16:11

so what you've got now

16:13

is a very, very unsatisfactory situation

16:16

where Ali is still on the

16:18

ballot paper, he could

16:20

win and sit as an independent or

16:23

nightmare scenario for Labour.

16:26

Galloway wins and

16:29

there is a kind of

16:31

neuralgic feeling around Galloway

16:33

that if he wins he'll have a seat

16:36

in Parliament, he'll be able to use

16:38

his very impressive powers of oratory to destabilise

16:41

Stalmer and they are

16:44

disproportionately sensitive to that.

16:46

So that was the real background. This

16:48

idea of Ali as being somehow

16:50

in the inner Stalmerite circle is

16:53

just nonsense. I mean he'd very

16:55

early on expressed

16:57

and written petitions expressing

17:01

grave dissatisfaction with

17:04

Stalmer's position on the

17:06

wall. So it's just not, it

17:08

doesn't hold water this idea that it's

17:11

a return to factionalism. What

17:13

this was was a very

17:15

bad piece of political management. Yeah

17:17

and I think it's clear to

17:20

me that people who are driving

17:22

the factionalism are the people like

17:24

Owen Jones and who it suits

17:26

them to have a very kind

17:28

of far spectrum position

17:31

that they can keep hammering. He

17:33

clearly has nothing but contempt for

17:35

Keir Stalmer. I've always been suspicious

17:37

of people like Owen Jones because

17:39

I think they're driven by how

17:42

close they feel to the centre of power

17:44

and if the centre of power keeps them

17:47

distant then they feel resentful and bitter about

17:49

that. I just feel like there's this sense

17:51

that everybody is on one end

17:53

of a spectrum and that's not the case at

17:55

all. You know most people are sitting much

17:58

more in the middle of these. issues and

18:00

think that they're complicated and nuanced. And

18:03

I certainly think if you extend

18:05

that out to the general electorate, I

18:07

think, well, we'll find out when

18:09

the Rochdale by-election comes about. But I suspect that

18:12

the people of Rochdale are much more interested in

18:14

the fact that the NHS is falling to bits

18:17

and that the local education system is falling to

18:19

bits and the Hughes at food banks,

18:21

and they are about the

18:23

issue of Gaza. And I also think

18:25

it's really condescending when people

18:28

say, well, you know, 28% of the electorate

18:32

in Rochdale is Muslim, so you can expect a

18:34

massive, you know, pro-Palestine

18:37

vote and a rejection of this kind

18:39

of ambivalence that Stama has been accused

18:41

of. The Muslims

18:44

are as affected by

18:46

the general issues inflicted

18:49

on this nation as everybody else. And

18:52

I can't, maybe I'm completely wrong. Maybe it

18:54

will be a Gaza by-election, but I

18:56

hope it's probably an election based more

18:58

on the troubles of this country than

19:00

it is on the sort of inter-Nissen

19:04

problems that the Labour Party's got on this

19:06

Palestine or Israel issue. Well, I

19:08

think that's true. I also think, though, that

19:10

the reason the factionalism

19:12

charge has been revived

19:16

is because the Labour left

19:18

always maintained that there wasn't

19:20

really an anti-Semitism problem, that

19:23

it was simply a device used by the

19:25

Labour right to beat

19:27

the Labour left and specifically

19:29

Jeremy Corbyn's leadership with. And

19:32

they are rolling this out as evidence

19:35

that, you know, in fact, when someone

19:37

that they see is not of the

19:39

left, i.e. Ali says anti-Semitic

19:41

things, it takes the leadership a long

19:43

time to disavow him. But

19:46

in fact, there's a sinister

19:48

side to that, which is the

19:50

Labour left has never reconciled itself

19:52

to the idea that anti-Semitism is

19:54

a form of racism. They really

19:56

haven't. I mean, and that

19:59

problem remains. remains

20:01

a part of Labour culture and you

20:04

know Starmra has gone a very long way to

20:07

rooting the problem out. He sacked

20:10

Rebecca Long-Bailey as Shadow

20:12

Education Secretary very early

20:14

on in his leadership when

20:16

Corbyn didn't respond in the

20:19

right way to the EHRC

20:21

report. He stripped the whip

20:23

of him and has said that Corbyn will

20:25

not stand again as a Labour candidate which is

20:27

a big thing to say about your predecessor. So

20:30

you know props to Starmra for taking it

20:32

on but the problem culturally in the Labour

20:34

Party that a huge number

20:37

of Labour people do not regard

20:39

because they see everything in terms

20:41

of power and power less they

20:44

do not regard anti-Semitism of a

20:46

form of racism and that

20:48

will persist

20:50

and the reason it's interesting and

20:53

important is because if Starmra is

20:56

heading for Downing Street and Labour is heading

20:58

for government these will continue to

21:00

be issues and although I

21:02

agree with you that I think you know

21:05

right now most voters are much more you

21:07

know concerned with the fact that we've just

21:09

heard that today that Britain's been

21:11

in a recession inflation is slightly down

21:13

but you know still prices are very

21:15

high that the NHS is in great

21:18

trouble these are big issues but

21:22

the Middle East has always been a massive

21:25

problem for Labour and I

21:27

think it has been especially

21:30

so since October the

21:33

7th because Starmra always

21:35

you know Starmra chose to make anti-Semitism

21:37

I think rightly the sort of frame

21:40

of his imposition of

21:42

discipline upon the party and the

21:44

break with the Corbyn era but

21:46

obviously since October

21:48

the 7th sensitivities and feelings

21:51

and emotions and passions around

21:53

the issue have have escalated

21:55

to an extraordinary degree especially

21:58

in the Labour Party party, not

22:00

only the Labour Party, I mean, let's

22:02

not forget that yesterday, the Conservative

22:05

Mayor of Salisbury was

22:08

expelled from the party for

22:10

making anti-Semitic remarks. There are

22:12

divisions within the Conservative government

22:14

about where to go on

22:16

this. So it's not just Labour, but

22:19

it is particularly marked

22:21

in Labour. And this is the number,

22:24

the problem for Labour is that they're

22:26

out of sync with the general population,

22:28

I think, on this issue. They're

22:31

more polarised than the general population is

22:33

on this issue. The general population, poll

22:35

after poll, since October the 7th

22:38

has shown, and it's been fairly static,

22:41

is that there's a degree of sympathy with

22:44

Palestinian people, there's a degree of sympathy

22:46

with Israeli people, but the great both,

22:48

two thirds of people, find

22:50

it complicated and nuanced and have sympathy

22:52

with both parties or none. And

22:56

that's a reasonable position to hold. I think

22:58

it's a logical position to hold, really, as

23:00

a bystander. Well,

23:03

I suppose, full disclosure, I'm probably

23:05

more pro-Israel and always have been,

23:07

but I totally

23:09

accept, I mean, to look at Stalmer's

23:11

specific problem is that his

23:14

position is unpopular with many in

23:16

his party. So

23:19

you've got independent candidates now

23:21

starting to target sitting MPs

23:24

like West Streeting

23:26

in Ilford North, Stephen

23:28

Timms in East Ham, Lynne

23:30

Brown in the new Stratford seat on the

23:33

grounds that the Labour Party is

23:35

being too pro-Israel. So he's got

23:37

another electoral management problem

23:40

coming down the line. In November,

23:42

56 Labour

23:45

MPs defied the Labour

23:47

whip on a ceasefire

23:49

vote and 10 frontbenchers

23:51

quit, including Jess Phillips, who's quite

23:53

a significant figure. In

23:57

January, Kate Azamah had the

23:59

MPs for everybody. and had the whip

24:01

suspended, following comments about Gaza

24:04

being included as

24:06

a genocide on Holocaust Memorial Day,

24:08

all these sensitivities. So

24:11

it's not going to go away. And now,

24:13

next week, we have the SNP

24:16

calling for an immediate ceasefire. Now, Starmer

24:19

has said he wants a sustainable ceasefire.

24:22

They're not the same. And he's got

24:24

a really, really big political call to

24:26

make here, which is, does he give

24:28

MPs a free vote? Does he

24:31

try and amend the amendment so that

24:33

it says something more to his liking?

24:36

What I think about this conflict generally is

24:38

that it is turning into

24:41

the equivalent of the Vietnam War

24:43

for this generation. It is, you

24:46

know, I agree with you, Matt, that it is

24:48

for a lot of people, you know, a bit

24:50

of this, a bit of that. But I think also

24:53

that was probably true of Vietnam for a lot of people

24:55

as well. It has extraordinary

24:58

adhesive quality in that it

25:01

brings other issues into it, into it

25:03

sort of immediate precincts,

25:05

like social justice, like the

25:07

oddity of hearing people saying reproductive

25:10

rights, or Palestinian rights, or

25:12

trans rights, or Palestinian rights. It's

25:15

suddenly become the kind of

25:17

maypole around which a lot

25:19

of political issues dance. And that's

25:22

not going to change because clearly the

25:24

conflict is going to go on in

25:26

various forms for quite a lot longer.

25:28

And you know, one hopes

25:30

not, but may well yet escalate into a

25:32

regional conflict. And it is, it is

25:35

everywhere. You know, you see it in,

25:38

there was a story this week about a

25:40

Soho theatre where a comedian

25:42

had been aggressive towards

25:44

a Jewish audience member who refused

25:46

to join in the Salutation

25:49

of the Palestinian Flag and the theatres

25:51

had to ban the comedian. And there

25:53

are just these incidents everywhere, which

25:56

means that it sort of

25:59

stretches from you know, the hootie

26:01

attacks in the Red Sea to Ivy

26:03

League campuses, to the

26:06

bill that Biden's been trying to get

26:08

through Congress, you know, it's just, it's

26:12

very hard to, to, to avoid

26:14

it, it's becoming one of those

26:16

defining issues, which I always

26:18

think that things like this are

26:20

very important in proving that actually,

26:24

politics isn't just about the economy and

26:26

public services. You know, I'm not, I'm

26:28

not saying everyone in Britain is walking

26:30

around thinking about this all the time,

26:32

or indeed any of the time, but

26:35

the actual practice of politics, and the

26:37

fact that people who shape

26:39

politics often have strong views, and

26:42

always have, this is not just

26:44

the social media era, means that

26:46

it will have a role. For

26:48

Starmer, there's the problem that there's

26:51

just been a poll, just one

26:54

poll, Savannah poll, saying that the lead

26:56

has been cut to seven points. Now,

26:59

by seven points, yeah. But

27:01

yeah, the narrows to seven

27:04

points, it may be that's probably just a

27:06

one off and the Savannah

27:08

said as much, you know, don't read too

27:10

much into one poll. But we also

27:13

know, do we

27:15

not, that Starmer is incredibly sensitive

27:17

to power elections. I mean, he

27:19

nearly resigned after the Hartley

27:22

pool by election, after the

27:24

Uxbridge by election, which the Tories held on

27:26

to, he panicked way

27:28

out of all proportion over

27:31

the Ules emission scheme

27:33

in London. And this led

27:35

to, you know, where we are now with

27:37

him on, you know, taking

27:39

a step back on climate change

27:42

policy. So I

27:44

think that he's panicking over Rochdale,

27:46

it's on February the 29th, and

27:50

it will trouble him deeply that all this

27:52

is happening. Yeah, and I think that it

27:55

again, returns to the theme that we've

27:57

both visited frequently on this podcast about

28:00

The depth of Stalmer, how much

28:02

depth is there? And is he

28:04

a man blowing

28:07

in the wind, you know, the political winds?

28:09

Or is he a man who once

28:12

elected, and let's, for the sake of argument,

28:14

carry on assuming, although I think it's, you

28:17

know, perhaps part of the problem that there is

28:19

a complacency around the assumption of a

28:21

Labour victory, but let's assume that

28:23

he gets into power. And

28:25

again, where is the boldness? Where are

28:28

the big ideas? Where is the sense

28:30

that they can defy a

28:33

Tory fiscal policy that

28:35

stretches all the way back to George Osborne, you

28:37

know, and this idea that there's no

28:39

money, you know, as Rachel Reeves

28:41

said the other day, the credit cards maxed

28:43

out, you know, they're gonna, well,

28:47

as I read Yanis Van

28:49

Nifarrak is saying, you know, who I'm not a big

28:51

massive auto fan of, but

28:53

he did make the point that this

28:56

analogy between a nation's finances

28:58

and your personal credit card

29:01

is completely fallacious because your

29:05

personal income has no correlation

29:07

to what you spend it on.

29:10

But the income of a nation

29:12

has a direct correlation with how you

29:14

spend and invest, you know, if you

29:16

don't invest, then you will

29:18

not generate more income. And this

29:20

is now, it seems utterly

29:22

befuddling to me that this is has

29:25

become Labour's default position is that

29:27

we haven't got the money to do it. And I think they

29:29

need to make the money they need. And

29:31

it, you know, we've seen time and time

29:33

again, where economies can

29:36

invest through various different fiscal devices,

29:38

but you can find the money

29:41

and you they need to

29:43

be bold now and say, we're going to

29:45

spend our way and invest in Britain now

29:47

to create a better Britain in 10 or

29:49

15 years. And what I've seen lately is

29:51

is an indication

29:53

that they are more

29:56

small c conservative than the bloody

29:58

conservatives right now. Yes. that. But

30:01

also I think, circling

30:03

back to Gaza, is that if

30:07

if Stama does become Prime Minister,

30:09

he won't be able to, or

30:12

no one in government will be able to

30:14

talk about Gaza or Ukraine or anywhere as

30:16

a far away country of which we know

30:18

little, you know, he will be the

30:21

leader of a G7, senior

30:23

NATO nation at

30:25

a time of grave geopolitical disorder. He

30:28

may be dealing with President Trump, and

30:31

he needs to have his internal

30:34

intellectual ducks in a row before

30:37

he becomes Prime Minister, because as

30:39

nuanced and difficult as these questions

30:42

are, ministers decide, you

30:44

know, it is in

30:46

the nature of being a

30:49

Prime Minister that you take decisions. And

30:52

this crisis in the Middle East

30:54

is not going to go away. And one of the

30:56

things that I think there

30:59

is a certain amount of naivety about is,

31:02

of course, it would it would be

31:04

fantastic if the shooting stopped tomorrow, there

31:06

was a ceasefire. But that

31:09

is not the end of the story. And

31:11

if Stama does become Prime

31:13

Minister, he's going to have to deal with, I

31:16

mean, let's say, you know, that there's a

31:18

ceasefire of some duration, that will not solve

31:21

the problem of Hamas is complete incapacity

31:23

to be, you

31:26

know, a good faith actor in future

31:28

talks. And I think there's a

31:30

there's a sort of, especially on the labour side, there's

31:32

this view that if there's a ceasefire,

31:34

we move straight to two state

31:37

solution talks. No, no. And I'm

31:40

not sure that Stama has

31:42

got anywhere along

31:44

that journey. And unfortunately,

31:47

yes, you do have to devote a

31:49

lot of your time as Prime Minister, and

31:51

hopefully most of your time to domestic problems.

31:54

But but if you're the

31:56

leader of an advanced industrial economy

31:58

with a major military. capacity.

32:00

You are thrown into

32:02

these issues daily and

32:04

you spend, you know I

32:06

remember Blair saying to me once, you know you

32:09

spend 50% of your day talking to foreign leaders

32:11

and discussing intractable geopolitical

32:13

problems, is he ready? I mean

32:15

what this suggests is that he

32:17

hasn't thought this side of the,

32:21

this hemisphere as it were, the Prime Ministerial

32:23

brain is still developing. I think

32:25

what it suggests to me and again

32:27

you know we're playing cod psychology now or

32:30

at least I am, but is that in

32:33

his deep heart's core he is risk averse

32:35

and I think he's demonstrated it with

32:38

his response to the changing finances

32:40

with the £28 billion. Climate

32:43

pledge, he's demonstrated it with his

32:46

reaction to this Ruchdale crisis

32:48

is that he's tried to find

32:51

a way through. Now you

32:53

could easily argue, well he showed great

32:55

courage in coming out and

32:57

stamping down on anti-Semitism as

32:59

he did in 2021.

33:01

Yes so I might be completely wrong but I am

33:03

troubled that the closer he gets to the finishing line

33:06

he's starting to show where I

33:09

would be looking for expansive courage and

33:11

ambition, he's starting to show signs

33:13

of conservatism and that worries me. Yes

33:15

and I think also that he's got

33:17

to be willing to upset people in

33:19

his own party in a way that

33:21

isn't just sort

33:24

of predictable. I mean you know

33:26

Blair was destroyed not by Iraq,

33:28

people forget this, but by Lebanon.

33:31

Prime Ministers in the end on

33:33

foreign policy often

33:35

end up seriously at odds

33:38

with their parties. Now I'm

33:40

not suggesting Stalmer has

33:42

to go all in

33:45

with Israel but he will

33:47

have to take very very difficult

33:49

and unpopular decisions either way in

33:52

this particular crisis because this crisis is

33:54

going to be defining, it's going to

33:56

go on for years, this

33:59

is not. It's gonna be

34:01

over by December, you know, even

34:03

if there is a ceasefire, you know,

34:05

this is gonna be Something that

34:08

we'll be talking about for a

34:10

long time to come I'm sure you're absolutely a

34:12

hundred percent right on that and we are going

34:14

to thank you for listening so far dear listeners

34:16

We're gonna be back in a brief

34:19

moment and we the discussion will change

34:21

tempo massively and we're Much

34:23

more fun much more

34:25

fun. So Much more fun in a moment. See

34:28

you in a moment So

34:35

retrospectors what historical events are we ticking off

34:38

on this week's run of today in history?

34:40

Well Monday's the anniversary of Jarvis Cocker's

34:42

stage invasion of Michael Jackson's performance at the

34:44

Brits Then on Tuesday, we tell the

34:46

story of the Spaniard who named Florida on

34:48

Wednesday the birth of instant photography the Polaroid

34:51

camera Thursday was the day Dolly became

34:53

the world's most famous sheep and on

34:55

Friday The foiled 19th century plot to

34:57

kill the entire British cabinet We

34:59

discuss this and more on today

35:01

in history with the retrospectors 10

35:04

minutes every weekday wherever you get

35:06

your podcasts Matt

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39:37

Matt, big week at the movies. Yeah,

39:39

and time for the joy. We had

39:41

a very serious, hardcore

39:45

first half. And

39:47

it had to, I think, because it's the big subject

39:49

of the week. But let's talk

39:52

about something joyous, which is the

39:54

new Bob Marley movie, One Love, which

39:57

I saw last night. And. And

40:01

although I am going to be contrarian again,

40:05

as is my want, because all the critics

40:07

have been dumping

40:09

on it, right? They've been dumping on

40:11

it. So snooty and,

40:13

you know, it's

40:16

too respectful. All I can

40:18

tell you is this, and imagine the scene,

40:21

your co-host and employee at a

40:24

East London cinema last

40:27

night, dancing and singing in the

40:29

aisles, right, with the audience along

40:31

to the songs of the great

40:33

man. It was a wonderful

40:36

experience. Were

40:39

you literally dancing in the aisles? Not in

40:41

the aisles, in the sea, but people were

40:43

in the aisles singing

40:45

along and dancing to one love. It's

40:48

directed by Ronaldo Marcus Green. Kingsley

40:50

Ben-Adir plays Marley. It covers the

40:52

period 76 to 78 when you

40:54

made Exodus, you know, which

40:57

is one of the great records of the 20th century.

41:00

And it is respectful. And it does portray

41:02

him as a legend, but he was a

41:04

bloody legend, you know, and it doesn't gloss

41:06

over his infidelities of some of claims. So

41:10

I loved it. And I was

41:12

completely perplexed by, you know, comparing

41:14

that with all the kind of

41:17

do me, oh, you know, it wasn't

41:19

it wasn't critical enough from film

41:21

writers who I know that if it had been

41:24

too critical of Marley would have

41:26

been saying, you know, what an outrage, you

41:28

know, how dare the white

41:30

supremacists of Hollywood come up, you know,

41:32

this is what makes me hate film

41:35

critics is not judging a thing on

41:37

what it's meant to do. This is

41:39

a celebration of one of the

41:41

great and and and

41:43

also it's what we need. It's what we need

41:46

right now. Where does this

41:48

sit in the great pantheon of music

41:50

biopics? Well, I

41:52

mean, this is I wanted to sort

41:55

of get your take on

41:58

what you what biopics you think. Pop

42:01

biopics are great and which ones

42:03

aren't. Let me kick off with one that it

42:05

came out and it's no exaggeration

42:08

to say that it helped mold me

42:10

as a person which was Oliver

42:13

Stone's The Doors. I

42:18

became entranced with Jim Morrison as many

42:21

teenage boys do and it

42:23

does veer you off a certain source

42:25

of, it clearly

42:28

found an affinity with my natural

42:30

disposition and I became very moody

42:32

and sulky and artistic and boho

42:34

and went off to Perla shares to

42:36

sip Jack Daniels at the graveside and all of

42:38

this stuff. But the interesting thing

42:40

about that film, if we put

42:43

Jim Morrison to one side, is I watched

42:45

the film again recently and I thought it

42:47

absolutely sucked. I thought it was terrible. It's

42:50

really interesting that this points to

42:52

a very important point about the

42:54

biopic, the pop biopic is that

42:57

you can love the subject and

43:00

be entranced by the movie and then come back

43:02

to it and think, hang on, did I really

43:04

like that? Just some undoubted

43:07

turkeys, okay. Dennis Quaidus,

43:09

Jerry Lee Lewis in Great Balls of

43:11

Fire. I mean it's

43:13

worth watching for the terribleness of it, okay.

43:17

Another one which I recommend to you

43:19

if you want to sort of fun

43:22

so bad it's good movie is called

43:24

Elvis and Nixon and

43:26

this has, that's brilliant and

43:29

wait, it's got Elvis played by

43:32

Michael Shannon and Nixon,

43:34

this is the genius played by

43:37

Kevin Spacey, right and it is

43:39

just a turkey

43:41

of Olympic

43:43

standards. The

43:46

other one I always think is just

43:48

unbelievably terrible is a movie

43:51

that came out four years ago called

43:53

Stardust which is about early David Bowie

43:55

but has no Bowie music in it.

43:57

It was awful, awful.

44:00

What did you think of the

44:02

other Bowie film, Moon Age Daydream? I'm

44:05

slightly conflicted on it. Yeah,

44:07

well, I like that but I think

44:09

documentaries are really different. So going back

44:11

to Bob Marley, the Kim McDonald

44:14

documentary that came out in I think 2012

44:18

is if

44:21

people feel that this movie

44:23

is too much of a pageant,

44:26

go back and watch that documentary

44:28

for a more

44:31

documentary approach to the subject.

44:35

I mean Moon Age Daydream I suppose was

44:37

an attempt to kind of turn,

44:40

make the medium the message, wasn't

44:42

it? Which was it's psychedelic, it

44:44

was very sort of the style

44:47

was very, very important to the

44:49

message. It wasn't just a sort

44:51

of talking heads movie that you'd expect. In

44:53

terms of one film that

44:55

really nailed it for me in terms of

44:58

a music biopic, it was Control

45:00

about Joy Division and Ian Curtis. I was

45:02

going to say the same, brilliant. Isn't

45:05

it? It's just majestic, isn't it? It

45:08

is, I mean, it might be my

45:10

favourite because Sam

45:13

Riley as Ian Curtis, Anton

45:15

Corbin as a director who had

45:18

been one, photographed the

45:20

band during their brief existence.

45:24

And I think it captures

45:28

in it sort of black

45:30

and white severity, something

45:32

very, very distinctive. But

45:35

it's also a very good drama. Yeah. And

45:38

in terms of like top two or

45:40

three biopic films then, if we've

45:42

got control towards the any

45:44

other recommendations, I've got a couple of them.

45:47

But you go. I have a

45:49

fondness for Sid and Nancy. I

45:52

know it's not great

45:54

on the other members of the band as

45:57

Mr Lydon has often

45:59

made very clear but I

46:01

think Gary Oldman's depiction

46:03

of Sid Vicious and Chloe Webb's,

46:05

the Nancy Spongian, brilliant. So

46:08

I like that and I think it has a sort of a

46:11

tragic elegiac feel about it which is very

46:13

powerful Alex Cox movie. So that's one. Yeah

46:15

and I'm going to broaden the genre

46:18

a little bit but he was a

46:20

pop musician of his time so I'm

46:22

going to say Amadeus. Oh

46:25

yeah, Amadeus is a rock and

46:27

roll movie. It's a great movie.

46:30

It may be the greatest actually. I mean

46:33

Tom Hulse, Tom Hulse may

46:36

be the greatest performance of

46:38

a rock star ever with

46:42

all the kind of Freudian father

46:45

fixation stuff thrown in and it's a

46:47

gorgeous film and of course the other

46:49

reason that this is kind

46:51

of something to be thinking about is

46:53

that there's much sort of big, big

46:55

drum roll going on at the moment

46:57

for the release of Back to

47:00

Black, Sam Taylor-Johnson's

47:03

biopic of Amy Winehouse starring

47:05

Marissa Abella and the

47:08

trailers look good. I don't know whether it will be,

47:10

I mean Amy

47:13

Winehouse is a subject

47:16

about which people get terribly prickly

47:18

and it feels quite recent and

47:23

so I don't know whether it will be

47:25

as good as some suspects. I

47:27

hope so. I really do.

47:29

Yeah well I mean it's

47:32

following one of the greatest music documentaries

47:34

Amy. Is that which one in Oscar?

47:36

Yeah. Yeah which is so

47:38

it's a tough act to follow. Also

47:41

I do feel like you know I mean

47:43

God bless her soul but you know at

47:45

least she's dead and people can start to

47:47

form an historic view of her whereas stuff

47:49

like the Elton John biopic

47:52

that came out. Rocketman. I just

47:54

thought he was up. Rocketman that's it.

47:56

I would put that in the dustbin of history

47:58

honestly I thought it was absolute. I

48:00

tell you what we haven't mentioned which has

48:03

slightly faded from memory but I thought

48:05

was absolute knock out was straight out

48:08

of Compton in 2015 about M.E.B.E.A. That

48:12

was a really good

48:15

film and

48:18

you know another

48:20

one which is forgotten is Sex

48:23

and Drugs and Rock and Roll

48:25

about the enduri with Andy Serkis

48:27

playing the great man and sometimes

48:30

he's lesser ones. So I

48:32

had a and this may be totally

48:34

unfair but I had a kind of

48:37

allergic reaction to Bohemian Rhapsody

48:40

because I just knew that it

48:42

had entirely been made to get Ramy

48:45

Malik and Oscar. Yeah that's absolutely right.

48:48

Everything around it there was a kind of caption underneath

48:50

you know you know vote now

48:52

vote now and he got on

48:54

Oscar and it was a very good, it

48:57

was a perfect impersonation of Freddie

48:59

Mercury. He couldn't knock the guy.

49:02

Whereas with One Love it probably

49:04

was a technically less remarkable

49:07

film than Bohemian Rhapsody but

49:09

I didn't know when I went to Bohemian

49:11

Rhapsody maybe I went to the wrong performance.

49:13

I didn't see anyone getting out of their

49:15

seats and dancing and singing

49:18

to One Love and Redemption Song

49:20

and you know Three Little Birds

49:22

you know you haven't seen

49:24

you know until you've seen me do Three Little Birds

49:26

you know. I'm

49:29

just going to throw one more in which

49:31

I don't even know if it fits the category but

49:34

I think of all the films we've mentioned it's the one

49:36

that if I had to watch again tonight

49:39

I would watch this one and it's 24, 24, so what was it 24, 24,

49:41

24, 24 people. It's

49:48

Steve Coogan as Tony Wilson.

49:50

Absolutely brilliantly funny as Tony

49:52

Wilson and of course a

49:55

big Joy Division connection with that one as well

49:57

but Tony Wilson I think the more I think

49:59

about him. What a remarkable guy he was,

50:01

you know, he was like he was when I

50:03

was growing up in Liverpool He was the BBC

50:05

Northwest TV guy and I'd go out and do

50:08

yeah, good. No, that's right. Good. No, sorry Not

50:10

BBC and he'd go out and do Vox Pops

50:12

in the streets of Manchester stuff And he was

50:14

he was living this bipolar life

50:16

where he was also the

50:18

impresario behind factory records, you know

50:21

I believe unbelievable incredible guy incredible

50:23

guy. Do you let me ask

50:25

you a really? Really,

50:28

I mean I I'll put my hands

50:30

up to start with to make it easier Do

50:33

you think our generation Matt are?

50:38

Hopelessly in love with

50:41

that era of Joy

50:44

Division factory record. Yeah,

50:46

I am I know I am we are

50:49

in that But they should I

50:51

remember that she in about in in Mad

50:54

Men when Don Draper's doing his

50:56

presentation about nostalgia and he and

50:59

he explains what nostalgia You know, it's the pain

51:01

of memory, you know The pain of never being

51:03

able to go back and I

51:05

feel it deeply about the the late

51:08

70s and the early 80s You know the

51:10

pay yeah of not being able to go

51:12

back because it was such a joyful time

51:15

even though you were surrounded by you know,

51:17

awful social deprivation and Economic

51:19

trash it was all before everything started turning

51:21

rosy again, you know, but there was something

51:23

beautiful about it I think

51:25

that's right. And I think that it's interesting

51:27

Bernard Sumner says about Joy Division that There

51:31

was the because there was so

51:33

little beauty around them They

51:36

found it themselves and he said we didn't

51:38

really know that at the time Yeah,

51:42

but that's what they were doing and

51:44

and the music stands up at least

51:46

I think so Oh hundred percent I

51:48

really do a hundred percent. Well, that's

51:50

a beautiful note a beautiful note upon

51:52

which to end this week's episode Go

51:54

see if you're feeling depressed by politics

51:57

go and see this movie really cheer

51:59

you up Brilliant.

52:02

So please, as ever, get

52:04

in your questions and any

52:06

feedback you've got to twomatsattepublishing.com.

52:09

That's the number two, m-a-t-t-s-at-t-n-e-publishing.com.

52:11

Or if you listen on

52:13

Spotify, you can just message

52:16

us there very simply. And

52:18

that's what Andy Smith did.

52:20

And he said, hi, Matt,

52:22

given the dwindling sales number

52:24

for daily print newspapers, why

52:26

is it that politicians seemly

52:28

continue to be fearful or

52:31

scornful of headlines and allow

52:33

that fear to influence policy? That, Andy

52:35

Smith, is a fantastic question. And I

52:37

think it's one we should address on

52:39

our Q&A on Tuesday. Q&A. Don't

52:42

you think? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Andy

52:44

and everybody else join us on Sunday morning

52:46

for a Q&A. Q&A Sunday. We'll

52:48

address that at the top of the show.

52:50

We're back on Sunday, as we've just said.

52:53

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53:11

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until next week, it's

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